Did PSA get a free pass on The American Greed show?

[Flintboy]

I don't think they mentioned PSA by name once.....Quite a few things concerned me regarding that company including the Ruth card getting bumped significantly from the "other company's " holder. Being the industry leader that they are, they need to do better.

[insidethewrapper]

Didn't PSA also give that trimmed Wagner a High Grade ?

[ngnichols]

Yes, they did.

[Kenny Cole]

Yes and yes. The trimmed Wagner that Gretzky and McNall bought was PSA's first graded card and its unveiling as a card grading company if I recall correctly. So yes, I think it is fair to have some questions and ask why PSA gets a pass.

[Orioles1954]

It's only a one hour program.

[Kenny Cole]

It's only a one hour program.

Right. That deserves its own episode.

[turtleguy64]

I was waiting for any kind of reference to PSA since the Wagner was their first graded card.Joe Orlando once again gets a pass.How does this guy wriggle off the hook so many times??????? Plus.yes,my heart was breaking for Evers complaining about getting ripped off after doing a ripping off of his own on an elderly garage sale grandpa.

[bnorth]

Why wouldn't PSA get a free pass? From what I have read on the whole Mastro debacle they all got a free pass including Mastro himself. I know some might disagree but as someone who has spent some time locked up I would do his slap on the wrist sentence anytime for the $ he made.

[turtleguy64]

Mastro really got a freebie with that sentence while Doug Allen took a big hit,mainly for squealing on the Fed wire placement.Yet it still grinds me about mastro's relatively light sentence.Govt. had a chance to make a statement and blew it.

[Leon]

Mastro really got a freebie with that sentence while Doug Allen took a big hit,mainly for squealing on the Fed wire placement.Yet it still grinds me about mastro's relatively light sentence.Govt. had a chance to make a statement and blew it.

My guess is you don't know the whole story. What info or help was given for the lighter Mastro sentence?

I think Ryan and SA Brusokas did a great job as well as Jeff L. Kudos to all 3 of them.
Let's hope some more hobby fraudsters get taken down. And if anyone sees something really egregious and bad in our hobby I hope they will act on it. Or at least PM me :).....

.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I don't think they mentioned PSA by name once.....Quite a few things concerned me regarding that company including the Ruth card getting bumped significantly from the "other company's " holder. Being the industry leader that they are, they need to do better.

I was thinking the same exact thing once the episode ended. PSA should have been strongly scrutinized for the Wagner and those Evers cards that went from SGC 4 to PSA 6. I also seem to recall that during the criminal hearings it was disclosed that Mastro acknowledged to a wired witness or in a wire tap that ALL the cards he submitted to PSA were altered. That to me was the biggest scandal in all of this. I'd rather overpay for a good card than pay anything for a bad card. What a scandal and to my knowledge none of the widespread damage has ever been redressed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was thinking the same exact thing once the episode ended. PSA should have been strongly scrutinized for the Wagner and those Evers cards that went from SGC 4 to PSA 6. I also seem to recall that during the criminal hearings it was disclosed that Mastro acknowledged to a wired witness or in a wire tap that ALL the cards he submitted to PSA were altered. That to me was the biggest scandal in all of this. I'd rather overpay for a good card than pay anything for a bad card. What a scandal and to my knowledge none of the widespread damage has ever been redressed.

Altered cards are pervasive. Some cards are more altered than others. And as long as they are encapsulated, most people don't seem to care.

[clydepepper]

Altered cards are pervasive. Some cards are more altered than others. And as long as they are encapsulated, most people don't seem to care.


I live on the hope that my graded cards are not altered, always assuming that whoever graded them had more knowledge than me and had no motivation other than grading the card accurately.

We can only hope that all graders are monitored, scrutinized and held accountable for their work.

Pie-in-the-Sky? Perhaps.

[Bicem]

Pie-in-the-Sky? Perhaps.

Definitely!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I live on the hope that my graded cards are not altered, always assuming that whoever graded them had more knowledge than me and had no motivation other than grading the card accurately.

We can only hope that all graders are monitored, scrutinized and held accountable for their work.

Pie-in-the-Sky? Perhaps.

There are really good card doctors out there who get stuff past well-intentioned graders, particularly where TPGs basically are giving most cards a relatively quick look and are not running a crime lab. Good alteration can be hard to detect; many experts have commented on this. I think this is the main problem, although I have suspicions about other things.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Altered cards are pervasive. Some cards are more altered than others. And as long as they are encapsulated, most people don't seem to care.

How sad and how true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How sad and how true.

It's the hobby's dirty not-so-secret, every AH and dealer out there knows (IMO of course) they are dealing with altered material.

[Fballguy]

Never been a fan of card grading and have only done it a few times. How in the world could PSA not notice a trimmed card? That seems like "Card Altering 101". And they stay in business? How can anyone trust them after that?

[prestigecollectibles]

Here is a You Tube video called "Holy Grail: The T206 Honus Wagner" produced by ESPN with Keith Olbermann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUTbxT_CleE

[barrysloate]

Another possible explanation:

A collector who submits a group of raw cards and gets back lots of 7's and 8's is a happy camper, and likely to submit more cards in the future. A collector who gets back a lot of cards with "evidence of trim" is unhappy and likely angry, and probably won't be sending cards in to "those guys" again.

And every business wants happy customers who will end up being repeat customers. So is it possible that cards that are close enough get graded to keep everyone happy? I know it sounds a little crazy, but I am looking for something to explain why such an alarming number of altered cards get holdered.

[Fballguy]

Here is a You Tube video called "Holy Grail: The T206 Honus Wagner" produced by ESPN with Keith Olbermann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUTbxT_CleE

Thanks...That was a good watch. The card was so nice in all other aspects, why bother to trim it?

[insidethewrapper]

I wonder how others on here would have handled that garage sale ? I wonder if the seller was hoping for $ 25 and when he said $ 500 he said yes quickly. I always ask what they want for their items and go from there ? If both parties are happy then what's wrong .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another possible explanation:

A collector who submits a group of raw cards and gets back lots of 7's and 8's is a happy camper, and likely to submit more cards in the future. A collector who gets back a lot of cards with "evidence of trim" is unhappy and likely angry, and probably won't be sending cards in to "those guys" again.

And every business wants happy customers who will end up being repeat customers. So is it possible that cards that are close enough get graded to keep everyone happy? I know it sounds a little crazy, but I am looking for something to explain why such an alarming number of altered cards get holdered.

As I said, I think it's mostly because some card doctors are very skilled, and TPGs are mostly doing a minimal review and not conducting sophisticated tests. I believe the President of SGC said years ago that microtrimming was nearly impossible to detect, for example.

[rats60]

Thanks...That was a good watch. The card was so nice in all other aspects, why bother to trim it?

The story was that the card was originally part of an uncut strip. The person who cut it off the strip did a poor job. Mastro just improved it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The story was that the card was originally part of an uncut strip. The person who cut it off the strip did a poor job. Mastro just improved it.

Right. As I recall the story Alan Ray, who I believe sold it to Mastro, would not say from whom he had bought it so the provenance goes back no further. But apparently it was obviously hand cut when Mastro bought it and in any case could not have been from a pack because of the back (not that it wasn't obviously hand cut afterwards too lol).

[turtleguy64]

Leon,forgot to add : Mastro found God just in time.Maybe he had a religious leaning sentencing judge.

[doug.goodman]

Opinions.

The people who get paid for their opinions have opinions that are affected by what effect their opinions will have on how much they will get paid.

That is why a trimmed card, some would say "the" trimmed card, which just happens to be the first card they graded, is not trimmed, in their opinion.

That not trimmed card set in motion multiple billions of dollars.

Everybody in this, and every other, forum was effected.

But that's just my opinion,
Doug

[ALR-bishop]

No telling how much Doug got paid for this opinion :)

[doug.goodman]

No telling how much Doug got paid for this opinion :)

Hi Al - that made me laugh out loud, thanx.

[WWG]

The story was that the card was originally part of an uncut strip. The person who cut it off the strip did a poor job. Mastro just improved it.

In the program they said the card had oval edges and it was football shaped before Mastro used a paper slicer to trim the card. Can you imagine what it would be worth if the card was still intact on the strip.

[oldjudge]

A lot less

[JeremyW]

A lot less

I agree. It wouldn't be a PSA 8 Wagner. An uncut strip w/Wagner sold for less within the last 15 years.

[JeremyW]

Actually $85,000. in the 1999 Halper auction.

[ullmandds]

Actually $85,000. in the 1999 Halper auction.

that one could never be high grade no matter how it was trimmed!

[WWG]

I agree. It wouldn't be a PSA 8 Wagner. An uncut strip w/Wagner sold for less within the last 15 years.

The strip that sold years ago looked like crap, the strip that the Mastro Wagner came from obviously looked a lot better.

284932

[prestigecollectibles]

Here is a link to the strip in the Hunt Auction from 2010

https://www.huntauctions.com/live/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=27&lot_num=242&lot_qual=

[The Nasty Nati]

I was thinking the same exact thing once the episode ended. PSA should have been strongly scrutinized for the Wagner and those Evers cards that went from SGC 4 to PSA 6. I also seem to recall that during the criminal hearings it was disclosed that Mastro acknowledged to a wired witness or in a wire tap that ALL the cards he submitted to PSA were altered. That to me was the biggest scandal in all of this. I'd rather overpay for a good card than pay anything for a bad card. What a scandal and to my knowledge none of the widespread damage has ever been redressed.

Personally, I think chances are very high that most tobacco cards graded PSA 6 or higher have been 'professionally' trimmed. The likelihood that a card stayed that crisp over 100 years is slim. I'm sure there are genuine examples out there, but very very few.

That's why I collect in the 3-5 range. They all have some corner wear, so you know it's legit...also I just can't afford most super high-end grades :cool:

[JeremyW]

Dollar for dollar, I'd rather have the strip. It might not look as good as the PSA 8, but I like the originality of it.

[The Nasty Nati]

Dollar for dollar, I'd rather have the strip. It might not look as good as the PSA 8, but I like the originality of it.

Agree. I think hands down that is the greatest T206 card/piece in T206 memorabilia. I'd take that over a Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back or a clean Honus Wagner.

[orly57]

I wonder how others on here would have handled that garage sale ? I wonder if the seller was hoping for $ 25 and when he said $ 500 he said yes quickly. I always ask what they want for their items and go from there ? If both parties are happy then what's wrong .

"If both parties are happy, then what's wrong?" If you take that mentality a step further, the same could be said about shilled cards. I am happy to pay 20k for a card even if you shilled me, because that is what I was willing to pay for a card that I desperately wanted. I don't think anyone is saying what Evers did was wrong or what Maestro did was right. Hell, I would gladly take a garage-sale deal like that, though I like to think I would have returned with more money for the guy after assessing the value of the cards.
Those of us who posted about Evers found the irony in him whining about getting ripped off, when he got those cards by ripping-off someone else. We weren't comparing the legality of one over the other, but merely the morality, or immorality as it were. The fact that the seller didn't know he was getting robbed doesn't mean it wasn't so. Maestro robbed many people who were as oblivious as the seller at the garage sale...and many were just as ignorantly happy.

[rats60]

Agree. I think hands down that is the greatest T206 card/piece in T206 memorabilia. I'd take that over a Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back or a clean Honus Wagner.

No, it is a nice novelty item, but the end it is not an actual t206 card issued in the packs. Nothing beats pulling cards out of their packages and the history that goes with them.

[Mdmtx]

"If both parties are happy, then what's wrong?" If you take that mentality a step further, the same could be said about shilled cards. I am happy to pay 20k for a card even if you shilled me, because that is what I was willing to pay for a card that I desperately wanted. I don't think anyone is saying what Evers did was wrong or what Maestro did was right. Hell, I would gladly take a garage-sale deal like that, though I like to think I would have returned with more money for the guy after assessing the value of the cards.
Those of us who posted about Evers found the irony in him whining about getting ripped off, when he got those cards by ripping-off someone else. We weren't comparing the legality of one over the other, but merely the morality, or immorality as it were. The fact that the seller didn't know he was getting robbed doesn't mean it wasn't so. Maestro robbed many people who were as oblivious as the seller at the garage sale...and many were just as ignorantly happy.


Extremely well put Orlando!!

[irv]

Here is a You Tube video called "Holy Grail: The T206 Honus Wagner" produced by ESPN with Keith Olbermann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUTbxT_CleE

For the CDN members, like me, who can't view the vid posted.
https://vimeo.com/59180900

I just finished watching the episode tonight, and, like others, also find it hard to believe PSA wasn't mentioned/talked about more?

[Mdmtx]

My assumption on the lack of PSA coverage, is fear of legal repercussions. PSA offers an opinion of quality of a card, and opinions are only that, nothing more. As far as I know, they are not embroiled in any criminal case. No basis for the show to sling mud on them.

Mark Medlin

[doug.goodman]

My assumption on the lack of PSA coverage, is fear of legal repercussions. PSA offers an opinion of quality of a card, and opinions are only that, nothing more. As far as I know, they are not embroiled in any criminal case. No basis for the show to sling mud on them.

Mark Medlin

They are only opinions, you are correct, but the mud slinging is well justified.

Hypothetical conversation in the office of people who get paid for their opinions :

Person 1 - "this card looks trimmed"
Person 2 - "well then we need another card to be the first card we grade"
Person 3 - "Doesn't look trimmed to me, looks like an 8"

Whether person 1 is lower than person 2 who is lower than person 3 in the pecking order in this hypothetical conversation is unknown to me.

Doug

[Peter_Spaeth]

They are only opinions, you are correct, but the mud slinging is well justified.

Hypothetical conversation in the office of people who get paid for their opinions :

Person 1 - "this card looks trimmed"
Person 2 - "well then we need another card to be the first card we grade"
Person 3 - "Doesn't look trimmed to me, looks like an 8"

Whether person 1 is lower than person 2 who is lower than person 3 in the pecking order in this hypothetical conversation is unknown to me.

Doug

Read The Card. If memory serves, the guy who graded it, Bill Hughes, said he and everyone else present at the creation knew it was trimmed.

[Mdmtx]

They are only opinions, you are correct, but the mud slinging is well justified.

Hypothetical conversation in the office of people who get paid for their opinions :

Person 1 - "this card looks trimmed"
Person 2 - "well then we need another card to be the first card we grade"
Person 3 - "Doesn't look trimmed to me, looks like an 8"

Whether person 1 is lower than person 2 who is lower than person 3 in the pecking order in this hypothetical conversation is unknown to me.

Doug

Doug,

I am not defending psa at all. But I doubt that any person or entity would make accusations or claims against an opinion based company unless it had PROOF of fraud. If they do so without proof, psa would own them.

Mark

[doug.goodman]

Doug,

I am not defending psa at all. But I doubt that any person or entity would make accusations or claims against an opinion based company unless it had PROOF of fraud. If they do so without proof, psa would own them.

Mark

Right, and that's what they hide behind, because you can't "prove" what the opinion of another person is.

All they have to do is lie about what their own opinion is, which serves the triple purpose of saving their asses from legal issues, making a boatload of money / business for their company, and ruining the fun of the hobby.

How great is it for the entire business of paying people for their opinions that the first paid opinion was a lie, we know it's a lie, and it's still ignored as a lie.

Barry's comment about "close enough" is aiming in the right direction, but the more to the point - they lie because it makes them money.

Doug

[oldjudge]

Too many powerful people have too much money tied up in the PSA registry; in my opinion they are essentially bullet proof.

[doug.goodman]

Too many powerful people have too much money tied up in the PSA registry; in my opinion they are essentially bullet proof.

Yep

[Peter_Spaeth]

Too many powerful people have too much money tied up in the PSA registry; in my opinion they are essentially bullet proof.

Sort of like our banks, too big to fail? There is some truth to that, even if a major scandal broke, most guys would find a way to justify going on as usual, and the damage would be controlled.

[Dpeck100]

I saw the PDF file of the names involved. There was a Peter Spaeth on it. Not the most common name. Peter is that you or another Peter Spaeth?

[doug.goodman]

Sort of like our banks, too big to fail? There is some truth to that, even if a major scandal broke, most guys would find a way to justify going on as usual, and the damage would be controlled.

Everybody (who uses the people who get paid for their opinions) already finds a way to justify it, remember that part about the first card being a lie?

Doug

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, last year when the list came out I posted a detailed description of the transaction in question and my perspective on it, and answered questions. A number of board members whose names appeared (in some cases multiple times) chose to remain silent. Which was the better course, who knows, but in any event I really am not inclined to go another round, so I refer you to the prior thread.

[Dpeck100]

Cool. Yesterday was the first time I saw the list. It was one of the largest percentage losses I saw and so it stuck out like a sore thumb and I saw the name Peter Spaeth next to it. I only recall a few names that were important to the hobby like Dave Forman being on it when it was released and discussing how that would be a concern if David Hall or Joe Orlando were named but they weren't. With that being the case I think it was wise to not try and implicate the third party graders.

[Fballguy]

My assumption on the lack of PSA coverage, is fear of legal repercussions. PSA offers an opinion of quality of a card, and opinions are only that, nothing more. As far as I know, they are not embroiled in any criminal case. No basis for the show to sling mud on them.

Mark Medlin

No basis...They're a paid service. Supposedly card experts. And they can't tell a trimmed card? The most famous card in the history of cards no less. They should be buried in mud for that. How anybody can send them money after that is beyond me.

Well...like P.T. Barnum said...

[Section103]

No basis...They're a paid service. Supposedly card experts. And they can't tell a trimmed card? The most famous card in the history of cards no less. They should be buried in mud for that. How anybody can send them money after that is beyond me.

Well...like P.T. Barnum said...

For hobbyists, PSAs ineptitude or corruption is a big deal. For the average person watching CNBC, they don't really care about PSA unless they can be submerged in scandal. For the reasons above, CNBC can't really do that without significant liability. They can say PDA missed it and the general public will yawn.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I just saw the CNBC bonus features. This is another scam that I wasn't aware of. This raises several questions:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-is-a-famous-baseball-cards-appearance-faked.html

Was the Plank graded by PSA or SGC?

What ever happen to the card? Did the grading company buy it back or is it in another "high profile" collection in elite registry status?

[PiratesWS1979]

Interesting about the Plank. About '98 or '99 someone was selling a few professionally restored Goudey Ruth and Gehrig on eBay. These cards looked almost perfect stating they were restored with donor cards and very little restoration was needed.

Does anyone remember them and know what happened to them?

[bnorth]

Interesting about the Plank. About '98 or '99 someone was selling a few professionally restored Goudey Ruth and Gehrig on eBay. These cards looked almost perfect stating they were restored with donor cards and very little restoration was needed.

Does anyone remember them and know what happened to them?

I don't remember those exact cards. I do remember the people doing the restoring openly advertising their work in that time frame. They made it sound like they could take a beater and turn it into a mint card using other cards of the same year for donor parts.

[drcy]

Interesting about the Plank. About '98 or '99 someone was selling a few professionally restored Goudey Ruth and Gehrig on eBay. These cards looked almost perfect stating they were restored with donor cards and very little restoration was needed.

Does anyone remember them and know what happened to them?

Yes, I remember. He was around even before then, early 1990s or 1980s. I think he put a pen dot on the back of the cards to identify them, and I assume the built up borders would show up under blacklight or holding up the card to a light (opacity). It was before blacklights were commonly used, and I assume the restoration would be easy to identify.

He was was overt about what he was doing and sold them for what they were-- restored cards. The concern was about deception by later sellers.

Also, if I recall correctly, the guy quit doing it years back, because he became allergic to substances used.

[taul166]

I a member of PSA, have registry sets, etc....

But, weren't some of PSA's expert board members identified as participants in the shilling scheme? If so, should they still be on PSA's board today?

[drcy]

I a member of PSA, have registry sets, etc....

But, weren't some of PSA's expert board members identified as participants in the shilling scheme? If so, should they still be on PSA's board today?

There were some big names, but I don't recall that.

[Yoda]

Yes and yes. The trimmed Wagner that Gretzky and McNall bought was PSA's first graded card and its unveiling as a card grading company if I recall correctly. So yes, I think it is fair to have some questions and ask why PSA gets a pass.

There have been rumors abounding for many years that the whole grading gala for the T206 rollout Wagner by PSA and Mastro was a staged event from the get go. As the story goes, Bad Bill approached, I guess, Collector's Universe brass with the Wagner in hand (yet trimmed or not, who knows?) and basically said, 'let's make a deal.' -- perhaps something like I will pay you
X to make this T206 Wagner Wonder Card the first card you grade, but it must be a nrmt/mt 8. The publicity for both of us will be terrific etc. etc.
Perhaps just another urban legend about this sad chapter in hobby history.

[LeftHandedDane]

I am one of the many collectors who prefer raw cards to graded. I frankly find the obsession over a 6 vs. a 7 vs. an 8, which to my eye look virtually the same (and all nice) to be uninteresting. But I do understand the financial implications of those differences, and therefore strongly believe that any company that performs this service has a fiduciary obligation to be consistent and accurate in its performance.

But at an even more base level, many collectors like me have been told that we should buy slabbed cards whenever we are purchasing something of any real value as protection against buying a fake or tampered card. Now while I believe that PSA catches the fakes, the fact that I cannot confidently believe that a slabbed card has not in fact been tampered with simply gives me yet another reason to stay aware from them altogether.