American Greed-CNBC

[brooklynbaseball]

Tonight at 10pm et American Greed focuses on Bill Mastro. Should be interesting.

[Sean]

This is the third thread on this subject today. Seems like a popular topic. :D

[ullmandds]

i wish i had cable tv!

[CurtisFlood]

Tonight at 10pm et American Greed focuses on Bill Mastro. Should be interesting.

Thanks for posting this, even if others have I didn't see it before now. I'll be watching for sure.

[Leon]

I hear it is channel 355 (CNBC as mentioned) on Direct TV....can't wait...

[Stonepony]

I'm seated and ready

[irv]

If any CDN's know what channel this is on, I'd appreciate the info, but I think I/we am SOL, sadly. :mad:

[irv]

If any CDN's know what channel this is on, I'd appreciate the info, but I think I/we am SOL, sadly. :mad:

Just received a PM. Channel 79 here in Oshawa with Rogers cable. :)

[RedsFan1941]

There should be a rule: If you own a 1933 Goudey Lajoie, you have to be able to pronounce his name correctly.

[timzcardz]

Was just flipping through channels and found it on now!

[Bobsbats]

There should be a rule: If you own a 1933 Goudey Lajoie, you have to be able to pronounce his name correctly.

Absolutely Correct !!!

[vintagerookies51]

There should be a rule: If you own a 1933 Goudey Lajoie, you have to be able to pronounce his name correctly.


And also not claim that it's the 2nd rarest card out there. Half the members on this board probably have something rarer :rolleyes:

[Jacklitsch]

Lots of interesting facts coming out. Things I was unaware of...my bad.

[kmac32]

Fascinating to quote Mr. Spock

[mechanicalman]

Can anyone explain the Goudey Ruth 53 initially in a low grade SGC and then in a PSA 6? What was the story behind that?

[Mdmtx]

The guy that paid 500 bucks for a box of cards from an unknowledgable seller is just as bad in my opinion.

Mark

[CrackaJackKid]

I hope Brent and Betsy at PWCC are watching! :)

[ngnichols]

Haven't seen anything I wasn't already aware of that had happened or is currently happening with auction houses that are on eBay right now.

[orly57]

Poor guy who made only 49k on his $500 garage sale purchase. I'm sure he went back to the guy he bought them from and said "I ripped you off. Here is 24k." He's whining about getting ripped off when he raped the guy for $500. Can't say I felt for him. I will say that I would kill for that Dihigo postcard Ryan has.

[Joshwesley]

Isn't lichtman on this site?

[Rhotchkiss]

Can anyone explain the Goudey Ruth 53 initially in a low grade SGC and then in a PSA 6? What was the story behind that?

Totally agree here. Interesting that PSA substantially upgrades an SGC graded Ruth for Mastro. Especially when any SGC card submitted to PSA now would get a downward adjustment. Yet PSA cards bring a premium over SGC? Not that SGC is better than PSA (or BVG), or vice versa, but man.....

[Bobsbats]

Nice job Jeff and Ryan !! Tonight's show was informative
and remembering watching the FBI floating around the Nationals was always fun.

[Orioles1954]

I know Ryan and can vouch for his character. He came off very well tonight. The show didn't seem cohesive or very well put together. The Evers fellow added nothing to the program in my opinion.

[Kenny Cole]

Isn't lichtman on this site?

Yes, and irrespective of whatever his detractors want to say, Jeff was one of, if not the first, people to call Mastro and Allen out He gets lots of credit from me for that. Ryan Christoff is also a member and he also deserves a ton of credit. Fair is fair.

Kenny

[Bkrum]

His whole story came off very poorly. He rips off a guy at a garage sale and the cries that he got ripped off by poor auction result to the tune of a 45k profit. His story about the "pristine" Aaron rookie was comical. The only interesting part was the potential evidence of the Ruth being resold by Mastro at a higher grade.

[Orioles1954]

His whole story came off very poorly. He rips off a guy at a garage sale and the cries that he got ripped off by poor auction result to the tune of a 45k profit. His story about the "pristine" Aaron rookie was comical. The only interesting part was the potential evidence of the Ruth being resold by Mastro at a higher grade.

It could have easily been sold, shipped, reholdered and reconsigned.

[jcmtiger]

Poor guy who made only 49k on his $500 garage sale purchase. I'm sure he went back to the guy he bought them from and said "I ripped you off. Here is 24k." He's whining about getting ripped off when he raped the guy for $500. Can't say I felt for him. I will say that I would kill for that Dihigo postcard Ryan has.

+1

[Kenny Cole]

His whole story came off very poorly. He rips off a guy at a garage sale and the cries that he got ripped off by poor auction result to the tune of a 45k profit. His story about the "pristine" Aaron rookie was comical. The only interesting part was the potential evidence of the Ruth being resold by Mastro at a higher grade.

I presume that you are only talking about the one guy on the show. Because for those of us who repeatedly bid in Mastro's fixed auctions and won, at least for me, the whole story once again makes my blood boil.

[Orioles1954]

I presume that you are only talking about the one guy on the show. Because for those of us who repeatedly bid in Mastro's fixed auctions and won, at least for me, the whole story once again makes my blood boil.

The title of his post was Evers so I am presuming that's who he was referring to.

[Bkrum]

Yes I was only referring to the Evers part of the story

[Jeffrompa]

How pathetic !

[vintagerookies51]

I'm apparently in the minority in not caring what Evers paid for that box of cards. If his story is true (very well could be a lie), then he offered the guy $500 just by looking at 4 cards. The seller must've been happy with it if he accepted right away. Either way it was a deal... but a major auction house stealing some of the cards from his group and advertising it poorly so they could buy it? That's flat out fraud. And that story about the Elvis hair... wow I had never heard about that but that's just stupid. Imagine if Goldin, REA, or Heritage was doing something like that

[clydepepper]

Sounds to me like we are all both victims and victors in the world Mastro created.


I wonder if we would be as interested in the hobby if the money wasn't there.

[orly57]

I'm apparently in the minority in not caring what Evers paid for that box of cards. If his story is true (very well could be a lie), then he offered the guy $500 just by looking at 4 cards. The seller must've been happy with it if he accepted right away. Either way it was a deal... but a major auction house stealing some of the cards from his group and advertising it poorly so they could buy it? That's flat out fraud. And that story about the Elvis hair... wow I had never heard about that but that's just stupid. Imagine if Goldin, REA, or Heritage was doing something like that

No one is saying he defrauded the guy. He just didn't paint a sympathetic figure. A guy whining about getting ripped off when he made nearly 50k by essentially ripping off someone is almost as obnoxious as his pronunciation of "Lajoie."

[vintagerookies51]

No one is saying he defrauded the guy. He just didn't paint a sympathetic figure. A guy whining about getting ripped off when he made nearly 50k by essentially ripping off someone is almost as obnoxious as his pronunciation of "Lajoie."


I would be willing to bet that, if any members were in the same situation, they'd be pretty upset too. But yeah, 49K from $500 is not a bad return!

[Orioles1954]

No one is saying he defrauded the guy. He just didn't paint a sympathetic figure. A guy whining about getting ripped off when he made nearly 50k by essentially ripping off someone is almost as obnoxious as his pronunciation of "Lajoie."

Plus he didn't sound very knowledgable about the industry and his story didn't make sense. How can he be pissed with Mastro when it was SGC who graded his cards? What cards were missing? Ryan did really well and Jeff appeared far more reserved than I perceived him.

[Jeffrompa]

My BS meter was working overtime every time he spoke . I can't believe his garage sale story . Who knows ? Again that's what greed does to us I guess .

[vintagerookies51]

Plus he didn't sound very knowledgable about the industry and his story didn't make sense. How can he be pissed with Mastro when it was SGC who graded his cards? What cards were missing? Ryan did really well and Jeff appeared far more reserved than I perceived him.

Agreed. The guy said the Lajoie was the second rarest of all baseball cards :confused: but didn't he say that Mastro didn't even include the Lajoie and several other cards in the listing? Or were they just not shown off as much as he would have liked... he wasn't very clear on that

[bnorth]

Does anybody know if this can be seen online? Got a link?

[bnorth]

I'm apparently in the minority in not caring what Evers paid for that box of cards. If his story is true (very well could be a lie), then he offered the guy $500 just by looking at 4 cards. The seller must've been happy with it if he accepted right away. Either way it was a deal... but a major auction house stealing some of the cards from his group and advertising it poorly so they could buy it? That's flat out fraud. And that story about the Elvis hair... wow I had never heard about that but that's just stupid. Imagine if Goldin, REA, or Heritage was doing something like that

I am with you, I don't care what someone paid for cards. Isn't the Evers gentleman a member here. I remember someone posting a very similar story on here about Mastro ripping them off in the same way.

[TakingStock]

Agreed. The guy said the Lajoie was the second rarest of all baseball cards :confused: but didn't he say that Mastro didn't even include the Lajoie and several other cards in the listing? Or were they just not shown off as much as he would have liked... he wasn't very clear on that

My interpretation was that Mastro Auctions intentionally omitted listing out the exact cards received on the auction agreement (the cards that he brought to their offices in person) and basically stole them from him by never listing them in the auction he was a part of thereby cutting the gentlemen out of cards he consigned but were never recorded.

[timzcardz]

Does anybody know if this can be seen online? Got a link?

http://www.cnbc.com/live-tv/american-greed/full-episode/fraud-collectors/1029670979712

[olrac44]

I'd have to go see if I still had that Catalog from 2007 but again this gentleman is talking as if his cards were MINT like so many other people tend to do with their own RAW cards. Plus someone couldn't have bought the lot broke it down and graded a few cards....kept a few cards for themselves....and sold off the rest by consigning the rest back to Mastro Auctions? If everyone knew back then that Mastro Auctions was getting the best prices around....why wouldn't you consign the remaining cards back to Mastro?

[slidekellyslide]

I'd have to go see if I still had that Catalog from 2007 but again this gentleman is talking as if his cards were MINT like so many other people tend to do with their own RAW cards. Plus someone couldn't have bought the lot broke it down and graded a few cards....kept a few cards for themselves....and sold off the rest by consigning the rest back to Mastro Auctions? If everyone knew back then that Mastro Auctions was getting the best prices around....why wouldn't you consign the remaining cards back to Mastro?

I can't believe how many are taking Mastro's side in Evers' case. They literally stole from him. They did the same thing to a local friend of mine who sent them a ton of early football memorabilia. They completely ignored his instructions to list the important and valuable programs separately. They lotted them all up and didn't even mention the highlights in the listing.

And does anyone really still believe that "gypsy" story with regards to Lionel Carter?

[Mdmtx]

I can't believe how many are taking Mastro's side in Evers' case. They literally stole from him. They did the same thing to a local friend of mine who sent them a ton of early football memorabilia. They completely ignored his instructions to list the important and valuable programs separately. They lotted them all up and didn't even mention the highlights in the listing.

And does anyone really still believe that "gypsy" story with regards to Lionel Carter?

My post was the first reference to the guy with the shoebox. I did not defend Mastro at all. Never have. Never would. The shoebox guy has every right to be pissed because it does appear the Mastro took advantage of him.

However, I think it's fair to say he took advantage of the original seller. He mentioned someone else was coming up the driveway and he had to hurry and make the deal. In my opinion he took complete advantage of an unsuspecting seller. If this sale was on eBay, or from someone who held themselves out as a dealer, I would have no issue. But it wasn't portrayed that way. It was some individual who got screwed by a flipper. Bit I guess that shouldn't be a surprise in the baseball card world. There are a ton of guys in this hobby that have no problem conducting business by duping people.

Mark Medlin

[slidekellyslide]

My post was the first reference to the guy with the shoebox. I did not defend Mastro at all. Never have. Never would. The shoebox guy has every right to be pissed because it does appear the Mastro took advantage of him.

However, I think it's fair to say he took advantage of the original seller. He mentioned someone else was coming up the driveway and he had to hurry and make the deal. In my opinion he took complete advantage of an unsuspecting seller. If this sale was on eBay, or from someone who held themselves out as a dealer, I would have no issue. But it wasn't portrayed that way. It was some individual who got screwed by a flipper. Bit I guess that shouldn't be a surprise in the baseball card world. There are a ton of guys in this hobby that have no problem conducting business by duping people.

Mark Medlin

Yeah, something doesn't seem right with that garage sale story.

[Buythatcard]

Evers should not be the focus of this thread. He did nothing wrong.

I believe every AH and eBay seller that shills their items should watch this video because this might wake them up.

[WWG]

I hope Brent and Betsy at PWCC are watching! :)

As I was watching the show on how the Wagner card was altered, I keep thinking of the 1936 Joe Dimaggio rookie debacle with PWCC.

[T206Collector]

And does anyone really still believe that "gypsy" story with regards to Lionel Carter?

I have to say that I went back and read my letters from Lionel Carter recently about the attempted theft, and when you realize that it was this crime that prompted him to consign his collection to Mastro, it is extremely suspicious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gypsies, who knew exactly where he kept his cards. And Doug somehow KNEW in advance that all would be returned.

[Fballguy]

How pathetic !

Mastro should've kept the fake Elvis hair and built himself a nice toupee.

[Fballguy]

I'm apparently in the minority in not caring what Evers paid for that box of cards. If his story is true (very well could be a lie), then he offered the guy $500 just by looking at 4 cards. The seller must've been happy with it if he accepted right away. Either way it was a deal

Agreed...I'm sure everyone here would've cut the guy a check for 50K on the spot. :rolleyes:

[botn]

Gypsies, who knew exactly where he kept his cards. And Doug somehow KNEW in advance that all would be returned.

The initial posts about the theft were very suspicious. I also know of one instance, on a significant card, where Doug was apparently able to convince (or told) SGC that a card that was submitted to them was from the Carter collection when it absolutely was not. It was submitted to them long after the Carter collection was sold and was done in an effort to make this card worth more money for the owner, who knowingly went along with the fraud.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think the point about the $500 garage sale buyer is he is a victim of karma... a illegal thief stealing from a 'legal' thief is not as sympathetic... versus just a regular guy selling cards....moral judgments i guess on that guy... it is interesting that the guy did say 'i only saw 4 of the cards' when i made the offer....which is a moral justification if true...but we all know thats a lie, had to have seen more.. so its his character we have a problem with even though he appears to have been a huge victim of fraud.

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

[Orioles1954]

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

+1.

[Bkrum]

I can't believe how many are taking Mastro's side in Evers' case. They literally stole from him. They did the same thing to a local friend of mine who sent them a ton of early football memorabilia. They completely ignored his instructions to list the important and valuable programs separately. They lotted them all up and didn't even mention the highlights in the listing.

And does anyone really still believe that "gypsy" story with regards to Lionel Carter?

Not taking Mastros side at all here. But the show did not paint Evers as a sympathetic figure and read more like a dude who thinks his perceived gold mine wasn't quite as lucrative as he thought. Which as we know happens in LOTS of deals. I would have liked them to focus more on any proof that Mastro stole cards or improperly listed them to buy them at a fraction of their value (did Mastro bid on and win the original lot?). Only so much they can do in an hour.

I did think the federal agents were very well spoken and seemed to understand the business and how Mastro/Allen subtlety shaved profits out of the industry

[turtleguy64]

Evers apparently made himself an expert on grading and said that the Aaron rookie was to quote him "pristine." Really? appeared not to have even been holdered in that gold mine box he bought for peanuts.

[Fballguy]

I think the point about the $500 garage sale buyer is he is a victim of karma... a illegal thief stealing from a 'legal' thief is not as sympathetic... versus just a regular guy selling cards....moral judgments i guess on that guy... it is interesting that the guy did say 'i only saw 4 of the cards' when i made the offer....which is a moral justification if true...but we all know thats a lie, had to have seen more.. so its his character we have a problem with even though he appears to have been a huge victim of fraud.



Just curious...What are the tax implications of a score like that? Turning $500 into $49K. Does the gov't get half? That story inspired me to go tag saling this weekend and I want to be prepared. :)

[Paul S]

Never watched American Greed before. Although I know almost all of the story and knew the ending would be anticlimactic, I assume most non-hobby viewers felt the same. I could believe much of the Evers story except I don't know any collector, even new to the hobby, who wouldn't be thumbing through that box and hence some sort of ballpark value. Is it just me or did '58 Topps get more visual airtime than any other card- even the Wagner? Must be those garish colors ;)

[mechanicalman]

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

It's funny, I actually agree with this 100%. Last week's episode, I believe, was about a couple who blew up a whole neighborhood by rigging a gas leak explosion for the insurance. If I wasn't head over heals for baseball cards, I would have found this episode devoid of relevance or sympathy for any "victims."

[Peter_Spaeth]

The initial posts about the theft were very suspicious. I also know of one instance, on a significant card, where Doug was apparently able to convince (or told) SGC that a card that was submitted to them was from the Carter collection when it absolutely was not. It was submitted to them long after the Carter collection was sold and was done in an effort to make this card worth more money for the owner, who knowingly went along with the fraud.

Yeah, as a martial arts guy I watched First Blood with back in the day said about the fight scene in the police station, too many right angles. I can't remember the details fully now, but as I recall Greg we both noted some weirdness at the time like the gypsy explanation, and Doug stating confidently the cards would be returned when he could have had no way of knowing and reason would tell you it was highly unlikely (how many thieves return the goods intact?). And then there were some discrepancies between Doug's account and Rob Lifson's account when supposedly the thieves contacted Rob.

[Hankphenom]

Yes, and irrespective of whatever his detractors want to say, Jeff was one of, if not the first, people to call Mastro and Allen out He gets lots of credit from me for that. Ryan Christoff is also a member and he also deserves a ton of credit. Fair is fair.

Kenny

As one of those who defended Mastro and company in the early days of Jeff Lichtman's outing of their misdeeds, I have concluded that I owe him an apology. At the time, it seemed unfair to tar them without offering specific proof, but if I had taken the time to look into Jeff's background I would have realized how qualified he was, from several standpoints, to be making those allegations. At any rate, anything that helps clean up the hobby is worthy of plaudits, so good work, Jeff!

[aconte]

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

+1.


+2

I was bored and actually fell asleep with twenty minutes to go. I had to
rewind on the DVR.

[Bicem]

Tough crowd. Thought it was great, but I'll watch anything on TV relating to the hobby and starring people I know.

[JTMRedSox]

Can anyone explain the difference in grading on the Ruth Goudey ?
I am searching for the catalogs that first had it in a group and then was sold separately . Can anyone identify the two different catalogs in question ? I believe the first offer ( by group ) was Dec. 2007 . When was it offered as a PSA 6 as individual lot ?
Again , assuming it was the same card , I've seen no good explanation for the discrepancy in grading ( different companies aside ) .

[slidekellyslide]

According to Evers it appeared in an auction 6 months later.

[Corporal Lance Boil]

Forgive me for what I about to say. Most people won't care, anyway.

What a boring episode of American Greed. I set the DVR and was excited, et al, and literally had to pinch myself to stay awake.

Not only did I not learn anything new about the scandal, but that was just bad television.

CLB

[irv]

Yes, and irrespective of whatever his detractors want to say, Jeff was one of, if not the first, people to call Mastro and Allen out He gets lots of credit from me for that. Ryan Christoff is also a member and he also deserves a ton of credit. Fair is fair.

Kenny

I agree, and we all owe them a ton of gratitude for doing so!

As I was watching the show on how the Wagner card was altered, I keep thinking of the 1936 Joe Dimaggio rookie debacle with PWCC.....................

......................and PSA.;)

[rdwyer]

This is the statement that got me:

"Crime absolutely pays, and it pays a lot"

Also, sign me up. I'll do 2 years in prison for millions!

[ejharrington]

The main fact that I learned from the episode is that the trimming was done with a standard paper cutter. I figured someone cutting a Honus Wagner would be using a high precision CAM/CAD die cutting machine. I would be shaking like a virgin on prom night cutting that card with a paper cutter

[Leon]

Forgive me for what I about to say. Most people won't care, anyway.

What a boring episode of American Greed. I set the DVR and was excited, et al, and literally had to pinch myself to stay awake.

Not only did I not learn anything new about the scandal, but that was just bad television.

CLB

With over 8500 registered members there is going to be every different opinion under the sun. My wife and I watched it. I asked her today at lunch if she thought it was good. She said "yeap". Personally I thought it was great. It was well put together, polished and professional. I just wish the episode was 3-4 hours instead of 1.

.

[ElCabron]

I thought they did an excellent job with the show, especially since there was really 3 or 4 hours of material to cover and only 1 hour to do it in. That’s the reason it seems like more should have been covered. There simply wasn’t time. I would have liked to have seen a little more focus on Doug Allen, for example. Mark Theotikos literally wasn’t even mentioned. Nothing about John Rogers, either. They also could have talked about how several former Mastro employees who were involved in shady practices there now work for major auction houses. Or the shill bidding list, which outs several board members as shill bidders. So when there’s an entire thread about whether or not PSA got a free pass, I just don’t see it. There simply wasn’t enough time. PSA would have been low on my list of what I wanted to see covered, behind all of the people I just mentioned.

I thought Jeff Lichtman did a great job and I hope more of his detractors will take Hank’s classy lead and give him the credit he deserves. You can still think he’s an asshole, but he deserves a lot of credit for his role in all of this.

Brian Brusokas (FBI) was excellent, but I wish we’d gotten to hear more from him. Many of you will remember him from the National when he spoke at the Net54 dinner. Brian is far too humble to ever acknowledge it, but he was the driving force behind this entire investigation, and without him, Bill Mastro and Doug Allen would still be ripping people off to this very day. The entire hobby owes him a HUGE debt of gratitude for everything he did and continues to do for us. His impact on this hobby has been quietly and anonymously enormous, and all of it for the greater good. Oh, also, he was the only one on the show to pronounce “Honus” correctly. Respect.

I don’t know that Evers guy, but it’s weird to me that everyone is so focused on him. I think he rubbed everyone the wrong way when he bragged about his $500 garage sale score than he “only” got $49,000 for. It was a bad look. Personally, he lost me the minute he said “La-jwahhhhhh” and then said it was the second rarest card in the hobby. It was clear that he’s not one of us. He was just a guy that got a deal on some cards at a garage sale and then tried to sell them with Mastro. But I have no problem with his $500 deal. He didn’t rip the seller off. The seller agreed to sell. That’s how garage sales work. It could have easily been a box of fakes and he'd have been out $500. It shouldn’t matter what he paid, the cards are still the cards, and he still got burned by Mastro. Although, I’m not sure about the Goudey Ruth and how that went down, because it’s not impossible that someone bought it the first time, got it into a PSA holder and then re-consigned it. But I think he was probably right that Mastro kept it in house and re-listed it in the new holder. In a perfect world, the time spent covering that would have gone to more Doug Allen coverage or some of the other things I mentioned earlier. But there’s no 1-hour show that was going to please everybody. I thought it was produced well and really enjoyed it.

I think a lot of people might have missed what I thought was the funniest part of the whole show when Peter Nash made a brief cameo. A classic, perhaps unintentional, easter egg.

Sorry there weren’t enough Siberian tigers and murders to prevent your narcolepsy from taking over. It’s not every day there’s an entire hour of television specifically about our hobby. I guess that’s not entertaining enough for everyone, though.

-Ryan

[aconte]

Sorry there weren’t enough Siberian tigers and murders to prevent your narcolepsy from taking over. It’s not every day there’s an entire hour of television specifically about our hobby. I guess that’s not entertaining enough for everyone, though.

-Ryan

No narcolepsy here. Maybe I needed to see the 1975 Dave McNally card
being flipped through the card boxes a few more times if they weren't
going to have Siberian tigers or strippers on the poles.

I am glad with the outcome of FBI investigation though!

Tony

[Huck]

Last night, I sat down and watched the episode. If you are not in the hobby that show had to be boring as heck. I agree with others in that there are so many other threads to the episode that given time could have been explored.

I could careless about the garage sale man being purportedly ripped off by Mastro. Who in their right mind would leave a potential gold mine of cards without a full inventory of said box?

Question, do members here believe Mastro made the hobby what it is today?

I think one of the best bits of wisdom on the show was from the reporter:

"There is a greed factor here too, where all of a sudden the cards that my mom put in the basement 35 years ago are suddenly going to allow me to retire and buy an island in the caribbean, and it just doesn't make sense.. right, because at the end of the day these cards are just pieces of cardboard. "

[Huck]

The initial posts about the theft were very suspicious. I also know of one instance, on a significant card, where Doug was apparently able to convince (or told) SGC that a card that was submitted to them was from the Carter collection when it absolutely was not. It was submitted to them long after the Carter collection was sold and was done in an effort to make this card worth more money for the owner, who knowingly went along with the fraud.

So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Question, at some point (I apologize if this has already occurred), one of the card companies will team up with one of the grading services and insert a redemption card for a certified "10" card. Given that scenario, does the customer still feel a "10" is still possible by purchasing a pack of cards? Do the grading companies take a hit for being in bed with the card companies?

[Jay Wolt]

because at the end of the day these cards are just pieces of cardboard
....and don't forget dollar bills are just pieces of paper ;)

[1952boyntoncollector]

This is the statement that got me:

"Crime absolutely pays, and it pays a lot"

Also, sign me up. I'll do 2 years in prison for millions!

Well it sounds easy, but its not an easy decision..lots of factors.

but woudl you do 2 years with a 1% chance of getting killed or worse (yes worse) in prison. People in prison will know that you are about to get millions when you get out. Those people may be low max security, but they may know people on the outside..plus you got to deal with the guards and some low max people are mad max people... those mad max people have a history of knowing how to get money out of people, whatever it takes.

Would you give 2 years away from your thirtys? how about fortys? We dont know how long we will live plus money does come and go. How many millions are we talking about......

[paul]

I have a stupid, almost off topic question. Did anyone else notice that all of the players in the black & white film footage that was shown had their numbers printed on large squares of paper that were pinned to their uniforms? What's the deal with that?

[Jay Wolt]

I have a stupid, almost off topic question. Did anyone else notice that all of the players in the black & white film footage that was shown had their numbers printed on large squares of paper that were pinned to their uniforms? What's the deal with that?
I noticed that too!
Plus they showed the same scene 3 or 4 times though out the episode

[Exhibitman]

Uni #s: Looked to be footage from an all-star game where they redid the players' usual #s with the batting lineup #s for the game.

Jeff: Great job! Succinctly laid out the issues and explained the consequences of what Mastro did quite well. I was very pleased they left in your summation of the overall impact on the hobby that this bubble of artificially inflated prices had. Do you think that Mastro junked the bidding records because you were on to him and he was afraid of the evidence you might uncover if you sued?

Ryan: Also a great job! You were the humanizing face of this situation. Your story about your passion for the history of the Negro Leagues and your hunts for their cards really gave some insight into why we collectors focus on the things we do. Did anyone catch the email Ryan sent to Doug the Thug with the tag line "F--k you and your threats." Classic!

As far as that Evers fellow goes, as I understood the story (it was a bit convoluted), he brought Mastro a large lot of cards, they gave him a bums' rush on intake, did a poor job selling them and possibly kept some, bought some themselves or through cooperating co-conspirators, then resold with proper lotting and higher graded slabs. Whether he made a killing or not is irrelevant: I have to admit if I was at a garage sale and found a box like that I'd snap it up for as little as I could pay. A willing seller's ignorance is my competitive advantage, because he could have gotten off his ass and researched too. Evers' douchebag personality does not excuse what Mastro did to him: you don't get to rip off someone just because he's a dick, though there is some karmic justice in the story. The real cautionary note here is that if you consign a bunch of stuff you MUST get a detailed inventory signed by the AH and if they won't take the time, go elsewhere. When I consigned a large lot to Heritage a few years ago (over a thousand items) I sat down and did a card by card inventory on a spreadsheet that I printed out. When I met with the Heritage rep, he and I went through line by line, he initialed every page indicating receipt, and only then did I turn over the cards.

Overall, the show was a bit hokey (the narration was campy as a Batman episode; I half expected a Zow! Pow! Bang! before each commercial break) but doing a story on card collecting for a lay audience isn't an easy sell, so you have to dress it up some. One thought I had watching it was just how eccentric collectors are. The time and money and energy we put into this thing of ours must seem so weird to outsiders.

[samosa4u]

Also, sign me up. I'll do 2 years in prison for millions!

I think you have no clue as to what goes on inside prisons.

[Orioles1954]

One thought I had watching it was just how eccentric collectors are. The time and money and energy we put into this thing of ours must seem so weird to outsiders.

It's a bit strange to insiders as well :)

[ElCabron]

I think you have no clue as to what goes on inside prisons.

I think you watch too much TV. We're not talking about a state penn. Bill Mastro wasn't dropped into an episode of Oz. He made it out just fine. And with plenty of money to live on.

-Ryan

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think you watch too much TV. We're not talking about a state penn. Bill Mastro wasn't dropped into an episode of Oz. He made it out just fine. And with plenty of money to live on.

-Ryan

Right its case by case...hes part of the 99% that it worked out...would you willing to take that 1 out of 100 chance it goes really really bad for you..

[WWG]

[QUOTE=biohazard;1693721]So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Ask Brent Huigens.

[bnorth]

[QUOTE=biohazard;1693721]So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Ask Brent Huigens.

LOL AWESOME, that has to be the post of the day.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I think you have no clue as to what goes on inside prisons.

They clearly said minimum security. Do you know what goes on inside minimum security prisons. He could easily spend $20k just buying people off which isn't even needed in minimum security and it's only a drop in the bucket for what he would have left. Mastro and Dougie need a filthy beating if you ask me and as a shilled bidder I may know someone for the job.

[Robert_Lifson]

Hats off to Jeffrey Lichtman and Ryan Christoff, two great ambassadors for the hobby! And also to Michael O'Keeffe, who has played such an enormous role in documenting hobby issues at The New York Daily News for so many years, and in the process, by doing so, playing an unsung enormously significant role in promoting positive change. All of these guys at times have been "punching bags" for being outspoken activists, but were always unfazed by being at odds with popular opinions or personal interests of others regarding hobby issues (both relating to Mastro and Legendary Auctions as well as many other hobby issues) over the years. I have no doubt the American Greed producers are very thankful these gentlemen were willing to devote their time to appear in the show. As someone who loves the hobby, I personally am thankful for all their efforts to make the hobby a better and safer place for all.

Ryan, that was a beautiful parting salutation in your email to Mastro Auctions! That was one of many highlights for me! Jeff, you have such incredible insight and knowledge and ability to communicate. I GREATLY appreciate your willingness to so often speak truths that are at times not so well received but so spot-on and valuable. Your great contributions to the field are very under appreciated. There are many others that have made tremendous efforts and contributions to positive change (ironically some that don't always get along, but at the end of the day, are all really on the same page), including Leon L, John M, Peter S, Jay B and, frankly, too many others to name.

I thought the show was GREAT! Was it perfect? No. But, like Ryan said, it's an impossible job to cover all this crime in less than an hour. There is no doubt that (if time allowed) much important additional information and additional stories could have been covered, and there is no doubt that different people (maybe every person) would have included (or excluded) different things, if given the opportunity. I think we have to remember that the show is not really designed or intended to be comprehensive. It's meant to be an introduction to the Mastro Auctions story for the general public. And it's meant to be great entertainment. I think they were very successful on both counts.

Perhaps most important, echoing Ryan Christoff's EXTREMELY accurate sentiments expressed regarding FBI agent Brian Brusokas:

The entire collecting world - each and every collector on Net54, and all collectors NOT on the board (as well as all collectors yet-to-be in the future!) - owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to SA Brian Brusokas. Once the criminal issues of the field in general, and with reference to Mastro Auctions in particular, hit his desk, he immediately understood the magnitude and significance of addressing the fraud issues at Mastro and the field. Some problems involve easily understood fraud (such as fraud involving fake autographs and memorabilia, and restored or altered cards).

But some of the greatest and costliest fraud in the field was not as easily appreciated, or easy to prove (especially due to intentionally destroyed and doctored bidding records): He understood the importance of addressing Mastro Auctions' rampant shill bidding. The true cost to the public was incalculable. He also understood the great cost of Mastro's common practice of reporting fake sales when their shill bidding back-fired: As detailed on the show by federal prosecutor Steve Grimes, one of the popular methods of fraud by Mastro Auctions was to arrange for items to be put up for auction, and then if they were not bid (or shill bid) high enough, the items would be “won” by a Mastro shill bid account and then secretly returned to the consignor with no charge or commissions. In this way, a fake sale at a desired level is reported, which could actually be used to help as reference (as a market influence or sales tool) for a future sale of the very same item. And if only one real bidder could be drawn in to bid and win at the desired level – voila! – a real (though shill-bid) sale at a shill-bid inflated price that does not reflect the real value and demand for the item.

This may be easy to take for granted now in hindsight, but believe me, getting law enforcement to even understand the concept and costs of shill bidding at all, let alone to take action, was a tall order. No case like this had ever been brought by the government before. FBI Agent Brian Brusokas immediately understood the incredible costs to the public of these shill bidding practices (as so effectively described by Jeffrey Lichtman and others in the American Greed episode), and he worked with prosecutors (who also deserve tremendous appreciation for their efforts) to determine that this was a very serious problem deserving of attention to protect the public. The entire collecting world was being cheated. Mastro Auctions was a ground-breaking case in so many ways. Everyone familiar with or privileged to have special insight into the case knows that its success could not have possibly happened at all without the personal interest and super-human talents of one agent. His extraordinary ability to collect information about and understand all aspects of this complex field, as well as (or better) than even the most seasoned veterans of the industry, was an almost impossible prerequisite for success. Brian Brusokas is that agent. Though I’m sure he had help, ultimately, he made it all happen. And if not for SA Brian Brusokas, almost everyone on this board would still be getting robbed every auction by being shill bid at Mastro auctions.

Well, almost everybody. Jeff...he wouldn't be interested in continuing to place bids at an auction he knew had a "maniac" sitting there waiting to shill bid him up. And Ryan...well, you'd still be banned!

My best to the entire board!

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson

info@americanainvestments.com

[jefferyepayne]

Well said Rob, Ryan, and others.

I thought the show was great. My only hope is that this is the beginning and not the end of investigating corruption in our hobby. There's plenty of others that need to stand behind bars.

jeff

[birdman42]

Just curious...What are the tax implications of a score like that? Turning $500 into $49K. Does the gov't get half? That story inspired me to go tag saling this weekend and I want to be prepared. :)

Nope. Gain from the sale of collectibles is a special category of capital gains. Assuming the collectible had been held for more than one year, the gain is taxed at ordinary income rates with a cap of 28%. So if you're in the 15% marginal bracket, the tax on the gain is 15%. If you're in the 33% marginal bracket, your tax is 28%. Note that many states don't distinguish much between sources of income (like MD, where I am), so income is income and there's no special treatment for capital gains.

If the gain is from a quick flip, like Mr Evans apparently, then it's short-term and it's all at ordinary income tax rate with no cap. (Though the highest bracket is currently 39.6%, plus the 3.8% NIIT on investment income.)

Bill

[bnorth]

Finally watched it today. I though it was very well done for the maybe 40 minutes of actual content.

[mark evans]

I finally saw the show as well and would like to sign on to the compliments paid to Jeff and Ryan.


Mark

[Robert_Lifson]

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-far-is-mastro-willing-to-go-to-make-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-is-a-famous-baseball-cards-appearance-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/after-mastro-auctions-closes-do-the-games-really-stop.html

[Leon]

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-far-is-mastro-willing-to-go-to-make-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-is-a-famous-baseball-cards-appearance-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/after-mastro-auctions-closes-do-the-games-really-stop.html

Thanks Rob. More good clips and SA Brusokas unraveling the Mastro/Legendary Fraud scandal.....Too bad those didn't make the show...

[Jim F]

The guy that paid 500 bucks for a box of cards from an unknowledgable seller is just as bad in my opinion.

Mark

A guy who ripped off an old man and turned $500 into $49000 probably should not be going on tv griping that someone cheated him

[hshrimps]

So which t206 Plank was re-backed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

So which t206 Plank was re-backed?

I believe it was a psa 6.

[Robert_Lifson]

The re-backed Plank referred to was offered in Mastro Auctions April 22, 2004 sale and sold for $51,519. The PSA certification number was 11731735.

Here is the catalog description:

High Grade 1909-11 T206 White Border Key Rarity - Eddie Plank

Graded EX-MT 6 by PSA, with only three examples in the world graded higher. Of the 26 copies of this card encapsulated by PSA (a total that's only a few more than the hobby's premier service has holdered of the famed T206 Honus Wagner card), the offered specimen is head-and-shoulders above nearly all of them in terms of refinement and preservation. Forever compared to the Wagner in terms of rarity, it can be stated definitively that the white-bordered tobacco insert card of Eddie Plank is the second most valuable baseball card in our hobby. Many theories have been advanced in the ongoing effort to explain its scarcity, but none has ever been proven. We do know that approximately the same number of Planks exist as Wagners, and that very few additional specimens of either Hall of Famer seem poised to surface. The offered example delivers outstanding, radiant quality in its blue-backgrounded portrait illustration. Its caption is clear and undisturbed, and its centering reinforces the viewer's overall impressions of satisfaction and awe. Although corners reflect minor evidence of handling befitting the item's grade, they do not for a moment threaten its superior and warm overall aesthetic. This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround. This enviable collectible has combined highly appealing visual elements with the merest vestiges of circulation to provide a marvelous entry for a worthy and advanced T206 assembly. This is an exemplary, EX/MT example of the White Border issue's key Plank rarity (with a center illustration of NM character), and a singular card that merits the admiration of an entire memorabilia industry.

[hshrimps]

Thx Rob.

By any chance, anyone has pics of that rebacked Plank? That card seems to disappear from the hobby since it last sold from Mastro. Just wonder how good was the reback job.

[Robert_Lifson]

I'm on my phone sitting in a shoe store in Soho in NY right now while my wife is trying on every single pair of shoes in the store (anyone married, you know how it is) so I can't post it now, but pictures can be found in the catalog and also on pricerealized.com. If no one else posts the images I'll post (or send to someone that knows how to post photos!) when I get home to my computer in a few days.

[oldjudge]

Rob-You better not let her see you posting about her. She's a lot tougher than you are.😀

[Robert_Lifson]

She's still trying on shoes and talking with the owner! She has no idea. Mums the word.

[Robert_Lifson]

I may start having my mail forwarded here.

[oldjudge]

Rob-This isn't the place you are at, is it?

[Robert_Lifson]

Can't afford that place! She's done so I'm off to next store now...

[Sean]

Thx Rob.

By any chance, anyone has pics of that rebacked Plank? That card seems to disappear from the hobby since it last sold from Mastro. Just wonder how good was the reback job.
It's listed in the Plank gallery on T206resource.com. It is Plank number 17.

[Pat R]

Here's the Plank that Rob is referring to. I couldn't find any large scans
and they get distorted when you enlarge them so this is the best I could
do.
285612285613
285614285615

[hshrimps]

It has curved edges... well... it could just be the scans.

[hshrimps]

Anyways, given it was sold at $51k. Even if it gets consign to auction now and listed as re-backed it would still sold for higher than $51k in today's market.

[Misunderestimated]

Given the demands/constraints of television I thought it a good show. Would I have liked a more thorough version -- of course. I suspect everyone on who reads this post would have liked a longer, polished, "30-for-30" style version with more names and details and less cliches.

That said I want to thank the people who "made this possible" on the hobby-end.* The most obvious people to thank are Ryan and Jeff and they deserve major kudos. But I'm sure that there are many whose names did not make it into the "final cut" and/or may have no any interest in being publicly known as part of this. They deserve my (our) thanks too. Doing the right thing is its own reward and -- all too often -- its only reward.





___
* Good people with the FBI,US Attorney's Office and the media are also to be commended for their work.

[irv]

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-far-is-mastro-willing-to-go-to-make-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/how-is-a-famous-baseball-cards-appearance-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/22/after-mastro-auctions-closes-do-the-games-really-stop.html

Reads these vids are not available in your area. My area is Canada and that is likely the reason?
Any other CDN's have this issue, and if so, were you able to view them via a different avenue?

[Robert_Lifson]

I don't know if this solves the problem but I see the extra footage is also posted on YouTube now. I hope this helps! Here are the links:


https://youtu.be/2QeAzcdNRLc

https://youtu.be/niopU2C43ys

https://youtu.be/5XbgTccK_6o

Many may find very interesting to read a copy of Mastro Auctions' mass email first announcing the "Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct."

A cut-and-paste appears below!
*

From: email@mastroauctions.com
To:
Sent: 9/13/2007 8:33:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

Dear Valued Customer:

When it comes to business ethics and integrity, Mastro Auctions has operated ever since its inception under the premise that actions speak louder than words. We thought, perhaps naively, that that was enough. I have talked to a lot of customers over the last few months, both at the National Convention and through my travels, and have come to the conclusion that our customers, in fact, expect more.

As the hobby continues to evolve and new concerns plague our industry, the time to assume a proactive stance has arrived. To that end, Mastro Auctions is taking our unwritten code of professional conduct to the next level by enhancing the code and memorializing it in writing (see below). This act of leadership is not required by law or by the industry, but it represents the high standards of commitment and responsibility that Mastro Auctions has always embodied.


Since we just missed our deadline for the October Classic sale to make this announcement, this code will appear in and be in full effect for our December Premium Catalog sale. As always, we greatly value your support and assistance. By working proactively as a team, we can make a difference in the hobby we all enjoy today -- and ensure that it is headed in the right direction for future enthusiasts.

Sincerely yours,


Doug Allen


President & COO

Mastro Auctions

Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

1. Disclosure of Ownership
Mastro Auctions allows employees, authenticators, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity and other third party affiliates to own and consign items in Mastro Auctions’ sales. Mastro Auctions will disclose in its catalogs which items are owned by any of the aforementioned parties. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of ownership extends to spouses and immediate family members associated with the aforementioned groups.

2. Mastro Auctions Employee Bidding Rules
Certain Mastro Auctions employees are also collectors, and, similar to the practices followed by other major auction houses (e.g. Sotheby’s, Christies, etc.) are permitted to bid in Mastro Auctions sales. The following restrictions have been placed on the bidding practices of employee(s) to ensure fairness for all auction participants:

*Mastro Auctions employees do not have access to ceiling or “top-all” bids. One designated administrative employee will have access to this information for the sole purpose of responding to bidding questions or for correcting bid errors. That designated individual will not be allowed to bid in the auction.*

Mastro Auctions employees, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity, and all third party affiliates (authenticators, service providers, etc.) are considered related parties. These related parties are prohibited from bidding on each other’s consigned items. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of the Mastro Auctions “related parties” extends to family members. 



3. Disclosure of Restoration
If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

4. Trading Card Guidelines
Mastro Auctions prohibits its employees from altering trading cards. Our policy on altering trading cards is in strict compliance with standards set by all major grading companies.

5. Use of Third Party Authenticators
Mastro Auctions is a company of experts. In almost all of the collecting genres handled by the company, there is an employee on staff who specializes in that area. As a result, before an item ever reaches a third party authenticator, it must first pass our scrutiny. Once an item that requires third party authentication has been accepted by Mastro Auctions, the following process will be employed: for each auction, the catalog will identify approved third party authenticating sources by category. We will not sell an item unless it has been authenticated by one of the listed third party authenticators. **

6. Bidding Records
Effective for auctions held in 2007, all Mastro Auctions bidding records are maintained into perpetuity. These records are considered private and confidential. In order to maintain the privacy of our customers’ information, these records will not be voluntarily shared with any third parties.

This e-mail was sent from an information only e-mail address and cannot receive incoming messages. Please send e-mail to CustomerService@mastroauctions.com.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Indeed.

If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

[hshrimps]

Wasn't Mastro Auction tried to be become a public company at one time??? Mastro and his team would have been in much longer jail time. They were "lucky" they didn't make it to a public company.. :)

[h2oya311]

Just watched last night. Big kudos to Ryan and Jeff. Would have liked to have heard more about the actual investigation and whether there was any restitution for those who were defrauded. I don't know enough about the details of the sentencing. I seem to recall that Mastro ratted out Allen to get a reduced sentence.

[Kenny Cole]

There was no restitution that I am aware of.

[irv]

I don't know if this solves the problem but I see the extra footage is also posted on YouTube now. I hope this helps! Here are the links:


https://youtu.be/2QeAzcdNRLc

https://youtu.be/niopU2C43ys

https://youtu.be/5XbgTccK_6o



Those worked.

Thank you, Robert. :)

[Klrdds]

Wasn't Mastro Auction tried to be become a public company at one time??? Mastro and his team would have been in much longer jail time. They were "lucky" they didn't make it to a public company.. :)

Yes that is true. Sometime in the late 1990s to early to mid 2000's ( I can't remember exactly ) Mastro announced in a special mailing to preferred customers that they were going public in the essence of selling shares in their company but it was never going to be a publicly "listed" company . The share purchase option and contract was offered by invitation only to"substantial clients " who spent a minimum amount of money in their auctions or to substantial consignors to their auctions. It was an "Exclusive Offering to preferred clients". The shares were going to be for the company in a private manner to allow Mastro to become bigger and actually purchase items to auction. As I recall shares were at least $1000 each and a minimum number of share purchases were required to begin and no dividends were paid and your shares had no voting rights and no reinvestment option and had a minimum hold period , that is they could not be bought or sold openly at any time , only when Mastro would offer a buy back or a purchase announcement .
Looking back I wonder if he was going to ponzi those investors, but the idea never gained momentum because the investor had all the risk but very little upside except to what Mastro would allow as far as appreciation of your shares and of course the initial purchase price.
If someone else remembers more about this or more correctly then please feel free to correct me.

[ElCabron]

Bill Mastro had to pay a fine. No restitution. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try to figure out actual losses and come up with an amount to be paid. But I'm sure now that he is out of prison and has had a spiritual awakening, he is working hard crunching the numbers to figure out how much he stole so he can pay it back and make things right. Look for your checks as soon as GAI opens on Monday.

-Ryan

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Bill Mastro had to pay a fine. No restitution. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try to figure out actual losses and come up with an amount to be paid. But I'm sure now that he is out of prison and has had a spiritual awakening, he is working hard crunching the numbers to figure out how much he stole so he can pay it back and make things right. Look for your checks as soon as GAI opens on Monday.

-Ryan

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

[Peter_Spaeth]

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

Most hobby criminals go scot free, so I think credit should be given even if the sentence was less than some would have liked to see.

[Jenx34]

I wondered the same thing about how in the world they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, what most people and many companies do, is as more $$ come in, they spend more and more, often in stupid ways.

To your last question, the company could easily have "gone bankrupt" while the people that ran it got rich. That's the protection of incorporating. If the business goes bad, you aren't personally liable. So they may have paid themselves into bankruptcy, whether intentional or not, only they would know.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I wondered the same thing about how in the world they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, what most people and many companies do, is as more $$ come in, they spend more and more, often in stupid ways.

To your last question, the company could easily have "gone bankrupt" while the people that ran it got rich. That's the protection of incorporating. If the business goes bad, you aren't personally liable. So they may have paid themselves into bankruptcy, whether intentional or not, only they would know.

I agree with your assessment that people can either squander their profits, overpay themselves (and sometimes hide the money from creditors), or make just bad business decisions and drive the corporation into bankruptcy. Mastro Auctions had very little downside to their business, so I see it as the first two options. Also, when fraud occurs courts can "pierce the corporate veil" and go after individuals or "alter egos" (individuals who use a business identities designed for perpetrating fraud). I'm actually surprised nobody has sued Mastro or Allen after all of this - or have they?

[Robert_Lifson]

They actually have been sued and with some degree of success. I know of two civil lawsuits filed against Mastro Auctions since they ceased operating (though there may be others). Both lawsuits were also filed against Bill Mastro and Doug Allen personally. Both lawsuits were settled to the satisfaction of the parties claiming to have been damaged by Mastro Auctions.

One lawsuit was filed in February 2014 by Dr. Howard Rosing (a very longtime advanced collector and true gentleman).

Below is a link to an article about the Howard Rosing vs Mastro et al lawsuit. The lawsuit was settled very quickly. Because a confidentiality agreement was signed, Dr. Rosing was not at liberty to tell me the details of the settlement, only that it occurred, and that he was very pleased.

The complaint involved four single-signed baseballs that Rosing purchased from Mastro Auctions between 1998 and 2001 for a total of $134,000. According to the complaint, "Rosing has since learned that the four baseballs are in fact counterfeit" and his $130,000+ in damages were "caused by Defendants' fraud and/or negligence." The four single-signed balls were: Mickey Welch ($20,217), Jack Chesbro ($20,898), Frank Chance ($21,836),and Henry Chadwick ($61,251). Extremely interesting note that is not mentioned in the following article or the text of the Rosing complaint: the Henry Chadwick single-signed ball was consigned by Peter Nash. And the Mickey Welch single-signed ball also originated from (that is, was previously sold at auction two years earlier by)....Peter Nash.

Article Link:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/retired-georgia-doctor-suing-mastro-2-others-signed-baseballs/

In June 2009 when Mastro Auctions sued Dave Forman for $400,000, Dave Foreman countersued for damages relating to various issues including shill bidding. The countersuit prepared by Dave Forman's brilliant attorney in the case (Jeffrey Lichtman) was extremely detailed and devastating. Instead of collecting $400,000 FROM Forman (who did not dispute having an unpaid auction balance, but did dispute the exact amount), Mastro Auctions not only dropped and completely abandoned their entire claim against Forman (lowering the $400,000 to $0) but also returned over $100,000 in cards to Forman that he believed were owed to him, and, in addition, Forman actually received a payment of $3600 in the settlement. (Hard not to say "wow" to that complete turnaround).

Links:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/a-fine-mess/

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/mastro-fine-sports-auctions-center-sports-memorabilia-scandal-article-1.428887

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/president-new-jersey-card-grading-firm-files-court-documents-accusing-mastro-auctions-fraud-article-1.439375?force_desktop=true


https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/more-sports/mastro-auctions-ketap-company-drops-lawsuit-settles-dave-forman-article-1.121333

[ullmandds]

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

[Duluth Eskimo]

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

It's on demand if you look it up

[mantlefan]

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

Dan, you would be astounded to learn how much exacto knives, hair dryers, power erasers, bleach and Toluene cost these days. It really adds up! :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank, funny, but my guess is most of the work was done by outside contractors.

[mantlefan]

Peter, do you think Dick Towle was a sub-contractor?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, do you think Dick Towle was a sub-contractor?

I recall at one point Graphic Restorations in Chicago was doing work for them although I don't know the scope, for all I know it could have been legit and disclosed work. From the indictment I recall Doug sent the Plank to California to be rebacked, I can guess who did that but not sure. I have no idea who else they might have used, there are a number of possibilities.

[calvindog]

Doug's plea agreement, Mastro indictment and shill bidder list. Some funny stuff here. Getting mentioned in all three is an achievement only those on the Mt. Rushmore of hobby degenerates can claim.


http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/public/Doug-Allen-plea-agreement-Mastro-Case.pdf

https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/iln/chicago/2012/pr0725_01a.pdf

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Mastro-shill-bid-list.pdf

[Pat R]

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

Pete, It will be on tomorrow morning (Monday 9-4) from 9:00-10:00 AM Eastern time on CNBC.

[irv]

Doug's plea agreement, Mastro indictment and shill bidder list. Some funny stuff here. Getting mentioned in all three is an achievement only those on the Mt. Rushmore of hobby degenerates can claim.



http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Mastro-shill-bid-list.pdf

That's quite the list! :eek:

Thanks for posting these up, Jeff.

[ullmandds]

Pete, It will be on tomorrow morning (Monday 9-4) from 9:00-10:00 AM Eastern time on CNBC.

Thank you so much for the heads up...im technology averse! If i cant access it on demand tonight ill be sure to watch tomorrow am. Popcorn for breakfast?

[ullmandds]

After watching I agree with many of the sentiment here...nice job Jeff L, Ryan C.

The constant repeating of the same pics and video footage of Mastro, and random hands flipping through 75 topps commons, the dramatic baseball innuendos...is typical...annoying reality tv.

I don't think as hard core as many of us are here we'd ever be satisfied with a production geared for the common non collecting folk. It was fine for what it was/is.

[GaryPassamonte]

I'm happy that a couple people sued and received restitution. These were big players with large losses. However, it is wrong that others, myself included, will never receive a penny from Mastro et al. The vast majority of people on the shill bidding list were not cheated out of large sums of money. How are they made whole in this case?

[ValKehl]

Might the term "class action" be applicable to the Mastro situation?

[calvindog]

I'm happy that a couple people sued and received restitution. These were big players with large losses. However, it is wrong that others, myself included, will never receive a penny from Mastro et al. The vast majority of people on the shill bidding list were not cheated out of large sums of money. How are they made whole in this case?

They're not. You can blame the Chicago prosecutors for not going after Mastro's money. I sued them once, threatened to sue them a second time, and got two good amounts of money from them. If not for SA Brian Brusokas, there would never even have been charges filed in this case -- the prosecutors had to be literally dragged kicking and screaming to the grand jury.

That being said, Bill did find God if we all recall and I'm certain he's busy totaling up all the money he stole from his good hobby friends and checks will soon be in the mail.

[GaryPassamonte]

I guess the trick is finding an attorney willing to go after Mastro in a low dollar suit or, possibly, gather a group of victims to be represented by one attorney.

[irv]

They're not. You can blame the Chicago prosecutors for not going after Mastro's money. I sued them once, threatened to sue them a second time, and got two good amounts of money from them. If not for SA Brian Brusokas, there would never even have been charges filed in this case -- the prosecutors had to be literally dragged kicking and screaming to the grand jury.

That being said, Bill did find God if we all recall and I'm certain he's busy totaling up all the money he stole from his good hobby friends and checks will soon be in the mail.

Why was that, Jeff? Was there bigger fish to fry or more important (in their eyes) cases to go after?

Like you said, thank god SA, Brian Brusokas pursued this and is still actively try to help protect us collectors. :)
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/chicago/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-chicago-sports-fans-to-be-on-the-lookout-for-fake-sports-memorabilia

Edit: Sorry, Jeff, I didn't mean to omit you as I also know you had a huge part in this as well. Thanks again for all you did!

[spaidly]

My post was the first reference to the guy with the shoebox. I did not defend Mastro at all. Never have. Never would. The shoebox guy has every right to be pissed because it does appear the Mastro took advantage of him.

However, I think it's fair to say he took advantage of the original seller. He mentioned someone else was coming up the driveway and he had to hurry and make the deal. In my opinion he took complete advantage of an unsuspecting seller. If this sale was on eBay, or from someone who held themselves out as a dealer, I would have no issue. But it wasn't portrayed that way. It was some individual who got screwed by a flipper. Bit I guess that shouldn't be a surprise in the baseball card world. There are a ton of guys in this hobby that have no problem conducting business by duping people.

Mark Medlin

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

[Mdmtx]

[QUOTE=spaidly;1698588]As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott[/QUOTE

Karma can be a bitch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=spaidly;1698588]As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott[/QUOTE

Karma can be a bitch.

+ many.

[rats60]

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

Not all of us are looking to take advantage the elderly.

[Leon]

Not all of us are looking to take advantage the elderly.

Always 2 points of view. I am with the other guys on this one. If you are elderly you should know to do a little homework. I am almost elderly .....if I short sell something then it's no ones fault but my own. I don't believe the Gypsy story about the Carter collection either. That whole situation was just wrong, in looking at it with all of the facts known in the other scams.

On another point, I heard Mastro is putting those restitution checks in the mail soon. Just don't hold your breath....

[Snapolit1]

I see both sides. My parents live in a classic Florida retirement community. Just for fun I have considered putting an ad in a local paper classifieds looking to buy vintage baseball cards. Typically down there the husband kicks the bucket and the wife sells off his stuff. It would be amazing to walk in on some amazing shoebox in the closet, but the temptation to take advantage of some elderly widow -- who really isn't in a position to do a lot of research -- would be strong. How do you fairly tell someone what their cards are worth? I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of numbers. I really don't want to go there as they say. Someone wants my help I will send them to Al or someone else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Always 2 points of view. I am with the other guys on this one. If you are elderly you should know to do a little homework. I am almost elderly .....if I short sell something then it's no ones fault but my own. I don't believe the Gypsy story about the Carter collection either. That whole situation was just wrong, in looking at it with all of the facts known in the other scams.

On another point, I heard Mastro is putting those restitution checks in the mail soon. Just don't hold your breath....

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/article1951047.html

[Leon]

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

[Leon]

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

OK perhaps I read too much into your statement about how the elderly should do their homework.

[savedfrommyspokes]

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

I do not feel bad for the two separate ebay sellers who about 10 years ago offered as BIN a SGC 88 63 Rose for $800 and the other a PSA 8 68 Ryan RC also for $800. Ironically, it appears that both sellers did do their research.....the current price guides at the time had a "high" price listed for each of these cards at $800 which is my guess why they listed at the price they did. Unfortunately, neither of these sellers reviewed completed sales on ebay , which at the time, were about twice what I paid for each card.

Again, I do not feel bad, and likely neither would have the next buyer who would have gladly bought either of these cards within minutes of me (and of the original listing).

My guess is that each of these sellers were both glad that their items sold as quick as they did, much like the garage sale seller in the show.

[Snapolit1]

I knew a lawyer down south who represented an oil and gas company that would offer indigent people money for their properties, without disclosing that hours of research revealed that there were valuable gas or mineral deposits that could be sucked out of their land. Ring the doorbell with a check book in hand. Were the people happy with the deal? Probably. Were they taken advantage of? Probably. Should a buyer have to disclose significant facts not known to the seller? Grey area in a lot of ways.
I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

[rats60]

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

[Leon]

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

LOL....yeah, that is a bit steep. I think I pay about 50% and feel it's a good deal....then I go to sell and lose 5%....

And back to the original topic - I wish more authorities would get involved in the fraud in our hobby. As has been said many times, we are fortunate to have SA Brusokas in the hobby. Hopefully he will be assigned to it permanently. :)

.

[spaidly]

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

I agree with this and that karma is a bitch. I also believe if both parties in a deal are happy then a good deal went down. Like so much in life, nothing is black and white. We live in the grey and each of us must decide where they are comfy.

Scott

[botn]

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

[mantlefan]

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

[Sean]

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

I don't know at exactly what percentage of the value I would draw the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off. But I do find it almost laughably ironic that the buyer then turns around and complains about getting cheated. :rolleyes:

[Leon]

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

I hate it when that happens.
And you need your full name out there, Frank. Thanks....

[botn]

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

I think you have me mistaken for Gerry Schwartz who was Moser's partner.

[slidekellyslide]

I hate it when that happens.
And you need your full name out there, Frank. Thanks....

He's got his full name at the bottom of his post.

[mantlefan]

It appears I have my G. Schwartzes mixed up. Greg did not cheat me. My apologies.

[Jenx34]

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Here is the problem with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

[rats60]

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

The seller didn't get what he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

[bnorth]

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

Great post Chris, I agree completely.

Because of someone not knowing they was selling error versions of a card I recently picked up $100 worth of cards for $3. I am pretty sure we are both happy because I paid their full asking price.

I have also bought a complete vintage set at the buyers asking price. The cards turned out to be much nicer that what I thought I was buying. I sent the seller an addition 40% of their asking price.

[RedsFan1941]

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

[bnorth]

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

I think it is more we all agree Mastro is a scum bag but we differ on the garage sale.

[Mdmtx]

With regard to the lowball price on the Goudey cards, I have a plausible theory. Just guessing, but with all the publicity cards have received in the past 30+ years, these cards may have been taken to a "reputable" card shop for appraisal and from ignorance or from larcenous intent, they were appraised as fakes. As we know our hobby is full of slicksters. The way I conduct myself in a purchase from a seller with no card experience is to make a reasonable guess at the market value and explain roughly the cost, time and risk associated with a sale of that nature. Then offer a price to purchase them. I have been turned down plenty of times, but I have bought plenty and never had a night of lost sleep from from putting the proverbial screws to someone. For those of you ok with 1% purchases from unsuspecting sellers, should heed my previous post - Karma is a bitch.

Mark Medlin

[Jenx34]

The seller didn't get what
he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

The problem is you are using #s you know after the fact. There is no way he knew what was exactly what was in that box, what quality and 100% sure they were reprints or commons underneath the nice cards on top. He thought there was some good stuff there and made an offer. The guy took it. In that situation, you arent sitting down at a table, inspecting each card and referring to the price guide of your choice. That's not how it works. You look at something, you make a quick judgement on its value to you, make a deal and get out. It works that way for both parties. The #s you refer to aren't known at the time. So your scenario just isn't realistic. It's easy to criticize after the fact.

My wife recently bought some old China in a pattern she was familiar with. Couple was having a moving sale and had all the dishes wrapped and packed neatly. She asked how much and was told $40. She accepted quickly thinking she could get $300 - $500 or even more if she took the time to sell them individually. Did my wife cheat or take advantage? Hell no, she gave them what they asked. We got home and found 2 pieces broken in half and many others chipped or cracked. Now we may only get $50 or maybe $100 if we're lucky. We took the risk and lost. But there were 8 other people there looking at stuff at the same time. The sellers didn't want her unpacking the entire box and inspecting every piece. There was no room or place to do so. You buy what looks good to you and you pay what the seller will take. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. In this case, the guy won big, but because of a crook masquerading as an advocate, he didn't win as big as he could have. Stop armchair quarterbacking while watching a replay of the game and understand the reality of what happens in the moment.

[rats60]

The problem is you are using #s you know after the fact. There is no way he knew what was exactly what was in that box, what quality and 100% sure they were reprints or commons underneath the nice cards on top. He thought there was some good stuff there and made an offer. The guy took it. In that situation, you arent sitting down at a table, inspecting each card and referring to the price guide of your choice. That's not how it works. You look at something, you make a quick judgement on its value to you, make a deal and get out. It works that way for both parties. The #s you refer to aren't known at the time. So your scenario just isn't realistic. It's easy to criticize after the fact.

My wife recently bought some old China in a pattern she was familiar with. Couple was having a moving sale and had all the dishes wrapped and packed neatly. She asked how much and was told $40. She accepted quickly thinking she could get $300 - $500 or even more if she took the time to sell them individually. Did my wife cheat or take advantage? Hell no, she gave them what they asked. We got home and found 2 pieces broken in half and many others chipped or cracked. Now we may only get $50 or maybe $100 if we're lucky. We took the risk and lost. But there were 8 other people there looking at stuff at the same time. The sellers didn't want her unpacking the entire box and inspecting every piece. There was no room or place to do so. You buy what looks good to you and you pay what the seller will take. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. In this case, the guy won big, but because of a crook masquerading as an advocate, he didn't win as big as he could have. Stop armchair quarterbacking while watching a replay of the game and understand the reality of what happens in the moment.

Your justification doesn't work for me. I have bought lots of collections over the years. You can get a pretty good idea of value pretty quickly. The guy offered 500 for a collection he netted almost 50k and he thinks was worth 300k to 350k. You can get a lot closer than that at a quick glance.

In your wife's example, she paid 40 for something she thought was worth 300-500. What if she had told them they were only worth $1? That is more in line with what happened.

[bnorth]

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

Now that all this happened a while ago another thing no one seems to have brought up. Several people stopped dealing cards, quit auctions houses and sold their collections that got outed during this fiasco. I bet most of them are sad now. Compare them to Ken Goldin who basically give the big FU to every body because he knew the majority of collectors would buy from the devil himself if they though they could get a good deal. Amazing how we all see the same thing yet interpret so differently.:)

[drcy]

An expert can get into trouble if he lies to get a steal from someone. One of the Antiques Roadshow experts-- I believe in Civil War items-- got into legal trouble because he lied to the owner about what he had to get it at a bargain price. If you represent yourself as an expert and an appraiser, then lie about what the person has and the value, that may be the difference.

Of course, dealers know that the case usually is that the unexperienced usually overestimate rather than underestimate the value of what they have.

[calvindog]

I think it is more we all agree Mastro is a scum bag but we differ on the garage sale.

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

[rjackson44]

What ever happened to mastro ,what is he doing now ,,the show never mentioned it ,,

[Beastmode]

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

Interesting. Maybe those letters should be posted here?

[irv]

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

Unbelievable! :confused:

[Kenny Cole]

Unbelievable! :confused:

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

[bnorth]

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

It is easier to process when you know Mastro sent out "gift baskets" to his friends. I only remember one person on here admitting to getting one.

[irv]

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

It boggles my mind as well, and I wasn't even in the hobby at that time.

You know, this takes a little bit of the joy away from the hobby for me. I know people like Mastro exist, unfortunately, but to think people would still support him after they found out what he did and the countless people he ripped off, just boggles my mind!