View Full Version : Someone stole this Clemente Rookie at auction
This card has recently sold for $52k, $43K & $36K, now it's going for what PSA 7's were going for last year.
https://goldinauctions.com/1955_Topps__164_Roberto_Clemente_Rookie_Card___PSA-LOT32885.aspx
Exhibitman
08-08-2017, 09:02 AM
Lots of amusing underperformers in that auction. The signed Jordan RC estimated at $7500 hammered w/vig at $4500. How about the Williams RC PSA 8 estimated $20K closed at less. The SGC 9 Ryan RC closing below estimate. Either the estimates were out of whack or the bidders stayed away, or some of both. The way I figure it, it was a combo of:
--auction fatigue
--overabundance of Clemente RCs
--possible market manipulation in the run up
--National timing
--Goldin's 'great' rep among bidders. I know at least half a dozen high grade collectors who throw his catalog right into the trash unread. I am not a high grade collector but I do the same.
1952boyntoncollector
08-08-2017, 09:51 AM
This card has recently sold for $52k, $43K & $36K, now it's going for what PSA 7's were going for last year.
https://goldinauctions.com/1955_Topps__164_Roberto_Clemente_Rookie_Card___PSA-LOT32885.aspx
How much are PSA 7s going for now...
Peter_Spaeth
08-08-2017, 10:12 AM
Lots of amusing underperformers in that auction. The signed Jordan RC estimated at $7500 hammered w/vig at $4500. How about the Williams RC PSA 8 estimated $20K closed at less. The SGC 9 Ryan RC closing below estimate. Either the estimates were out of whack or the bidders stayed away, or some of both. The way I figure it, it was a combo of:
--auction fatigue
--overabundance of Clemente RCs
--possible market manipulation in the run up
--National timing
--Goldin's 'great' rep among bidders. I know at least half a dozen high grade collectors who throw his catalog right into the trash unread. I am not a high grade collector but I do the same.
I thought prices were strong on some other cards. I think it's mostly that prices for Clementes got way out of hand for a while.
bobbyw8469
08-08-2017, 10:41 AM
I thought prices were strong on some other cards. I think it's mostly that prices for Clementes got way out of hand for a while.
+1....Clemente got crazy.
rats60
08-08-2017, 12:46 PM
This card has recently sold for $52k, $43K & $36K, now it's going for what PSA 7's were going for last year.
https://goldinauctions.com/1955_Topps__164_Roberto_Clemente_Rookie_Card___PSA-LOT32885.aspx
That card is pretty far off centered.
hangman62
08-08-2017, 01:14 PM
" pretty far " off center ????
This shows how much the market was manipulated last year. A PSA 8 for $131,450 are you kidding! :eek:
1952boyntoncollector
08-08-2017, 01:40 PM
This shows how much the market was manipulated last year. A PSA 8 for $131,450 are you kidding! :eek:
It has been discussed whether money actually changed hands or perhaps its just the buyer winning their own card.... Until i see someone crying that they paid 131k for that card i really cant believe that lone sale.
Peter_Spaeth
08-08-2017, 01:50 PM
Lol.
Beastmode
08-08-2017, 02:08 PM
It has been discussed whether money actually changed hands or perhaps its just the buyer winning their own card.... Until i see someone crying that they paid 131k for that card i really cant believe that lone sale.
+1 Just because it's on VCP doesn't mean it closed. They are just grabbing data from the internet with no reconciliation of payment.
Beastmode
08-08-2017, 02:13 PM
That card is pretty far off centered.
L/R is what..65/35. not bad. I've seen a lot worse. it's a nice looking card. If it got dinged for that centering, that would be a market swing.
I think we can assume a couple things:
The auction wasn't shilled
There was no reserve
the buyers who bought from the buyers group are now selling
+1 Just because it's on VCP doesn't mean it closed. They are just grabbing data from the internet with no reconciliation of payment.
This didn't come from VCP, it came right off Heritage webpage. Are you saying HA posted selling price without receiving payment?
rats60
08-08-2017, 03:19 PM
L/R is what..65/35. not bad. I've seen a lot worse. it's a nice looking card. If it got dinged for that centering, that would be a market swing.
I think we can assume a couple things:
The auction wasn't shilled
There was no reserve
the buyers who bought from the buyers group are now selling
It is worse than 2 to 1. More like 70/30 or the worst centering possible for the grade. I haven't seen a worse centered 8 sell over the last 2-3 years. I am not surprised it sold for less than any other recent sales.
Peter_Spaeth
08-08-2017, 05:11 PM
This didn't come from VCP, it came right off Heritage webpage. Are you saying HA posted selling price without receiving payment?
That would not surprise me at all. How many closed auctions ever get taken down?
mattjc1983
08-08-2017, 05:57 PM
Lol.
Wowza. Some folks got stuck holding the bag I'm sure, and can't really say I feel that sorry for them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Beastmode
08-08-2017, 07:26 PM
This didn't come from VCP, it came right off Heritage webpage. Are you saying HA posted selling price without receiving payment?
VCP is a data mining company, in simple terms. Taking data from various sources and putting it in their software. IMO, VCP provides a valuable service by consolidating the sales records of cards, and saves me a whole lot of time.
however, the data they gather is only has good as it's source. VCP does not know if the auction was paid for or not, just that it closed. And once it's closed, it makes it's way over to VCP. As the saying goes, garbage in-garbage out.
As far as I know, AH's are not required, and do not disclose voluntarily, whether an auction has been paid for or not. This includes e-bay. It's up to you as a buyer to sort through the outliers and determine if real or not.
It has been discussed whether money actually changed hands or perhaps its just the buyer winning their own card.... Until i see someone crying that they paid 131k for that card i really can't believe that lone sale.
Didn't we already have this conversation about a $80,000 dollar Koufax, Jake?
IIRC, you stated, whether money exchanged hands or not, the $80,000 is what the card sold for, so what are you trying to say above, exactly? :confused:
Johnny630
08-09-2017, 06:46 AM
The market was heavily manipulated the past two years we all know it.
Peter_Spaeth
08-09-2017, 07:32 AM
The market was heavily manipulated the past two years we all know it.
Well, some of us denied it vehemently, and even repeatedly mocked those who claimed it was.
Johnny630
08-09-2017, 07:50 AM
I wonder how many now believe it wasn't ?
Well, some of us denied it vehemently, and even repeatedly mocked those who claimed it was.
When the guy manipulating it comes on the forum and says he is doing it, it's hard to dispute it. But some will....
samosa4u
08-09-2017, 12:44 PM
When the guy manipulating it comes on the forum and says he is doing it, it's hard to dispute it. But some will....
I'm actually thinking of starting a thread on this subject. So what exactly is market manipulation? A few super-rich guys bid on thousands and thousands of auctions last summer and then just stopped? What about the cards they won? Did they pay for them or not? How exactly did it work? :confused:
Also, will we ever see prices jump like they did last summer or was that a one time thing?
I'm actually thinking of starting a thread on this subject. So what exactly is market manipulation? A few super-rich guys bid on thousands and thousands of auctions last summer and then just stopped? What about the cards they won? Did they pay for them or not? How exactly did it work? :confused:
Also, will we ever see prices jump like they did last summer or was that a one time thing?
Yes, they would overpay on mid grade items which in turn would pump up the price on high grade items. Then they would just sell the card they just bought at a profit as the market was now "hot". The real money came when the higher grade cards were selling for never before seen prices. Many Rookie cards have come back down to earth in price (Clemente, Koufax) but occasionally you'll see a different Rookie card get a lot of attention like the 1925 Exhibit Lou Gehrig which is the hot card of the summer going for crazy prices.
rats60
08-09-2017, 01:39 PM
I'm actually thinking of starting a thread on this subject. So what exactly is market manipulation? A few super-rich guys bid on thousands and thousands of auctions last summer and then just stopped? What about the cards they won? Did they pay for them or not? How exactly did it work? :confused:
Also, will we ever see prices jump like they did last summer or was that a one time thing?
There were cards that were not paid for. Auction Houses don't reveal which ones weren't. It would be nice for the hobby and collectors, but we are just left to guess.
Empty77
08-09-2017, 03:41 PM
not just the centering, but the quality overall is down on that card. the registration is off and it has an unpleasant yellow halo sort of effect on the left edge as well as the right side of the bust image and the full body inset.
Peter_Spaeth
08-09-2017, 04:32 PM
There were cards that were not paid for. Auction Houses don't reveal which ones weren't. It would be nice for the hobby and collectors, but we are just left to guess.
Yup. A certain auction house used to do this regularly. Many times I would see the same damn card that "sold" less than a month ago back on ebay at a much LOWER price, so that would tell me it was the consignor and not a would be flipper. One time I even saw a card that was in auction still in the guy's ebay store lol.
rats60
08-10-2017, 11:36 AM
Yup. A certain auction house used to do this regularly. Many times I would see the same damn card that "sold" less than a month ago back on ebay at a much LOWER price, so that would tell me it was the consignor and not a would be flipper. One time I even saw a card that was in auction still in the guy's ebay store lol.
It could also be someone bidding high to protect their investment and then not paying. I believe the last year run up was more of that than consignors shilling their own cards.
h2oya311
08-14-2017, 03:06 PM
It could also be someone bidding high to protect their investment and then not paying. I believe the last year run up was more of that than consignors shilling their own cards.
especially since this is actually allowed with consignments to Heritage (due to lax TX law). Huge red flag for me.