1949 Jackies on Memory Lane

[orly57]

These two cards are up for auction on Memory Lane. As of right now, the PSA 9 is Edging out the SGC by about 10%. In my mind, the SGC example BLOWS AWAY the PSA by any measure (most notably the registration, the whiter borders, and that awful print-Mark). I am extremely interested to see which carries the day: the card or the holder.

[pokerplyr80]

My bet is on holder. By more than 10%. But yea, the sgc card looks way nicer. If they were both in psa 9 holders I would easily bid 20-30% more for the sgc card.

[orly57]

My bet is on holder. By more than 10%. But yea, the sgc card looks way nicer. If they were both in psa 9 holders I would easily bid 20-30% more for the sgc card.

I don't disagree with you Jesse, but how crazy is that? It is simply mind-numbing.

[Stonepony]

...and what's with that "O" on the cap? Print defect?

[bobbyw8469]

...and what's with that "O" on the cap? Print defect?

Yes. They are called "fisheyes".

[toledo_mudhen]

...and what's with that "O" on the cap? Print defect?

Or could just be Bo Jackson's cap?

Yea I agree - The SGC card should blow the PSA out of the water at the final hammer...the card - not the holder - after 20ish years of looking at slabs - I may be there..........

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Normally in these threads I don't see the big deal, or even disagree with the premise completely. But this one is spot on, the SGC is SO much nicer it's mind-blowing.

[darwinbulldog]

If only they had some way to indicate that the card had a major print defect but was otherwise in mint condition.

[megalimey]

Yes. They are called "fisheyes".
Hickey

here is a detailed description
A hickey is a small spot or imperfection that appears in print on images or flat tints. It is sometimes called a bulls eye or fish eye. The problem is most visible in areas of heavy ink coverage.

There are two types of hickeys:

Void hickeys are blank, unprinted spots in a printed area.
Doughnut hickeys are solid printed areas surrounded by a circular unprinted area. Doughnut hickeys produced by particles of ink skin collecting on the blanket or plate are called ink hickeys.
Hickeys are caused by dirt, paper fibers or hardened specks of ink on the printing plate or blanket. On offset presses the addition of a special roller, called a hickey-picking roller, can minimize the effects of hickeys.
one good thing you will never ever see a Fake with a printers defect
also with PSA you can look up Cert and Population report easily , try looking up cert at SGC not as easy

[gemmint77]

Some people must care about the PSA registry. I would buy the SGC card all day over the PSA graded one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If only they had some way to indicate that the card had a major print defect but was otherwise in mint condition.

LOL. Someone really clever could come up with a two letter abbreviation, I bet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just a fact of life, in most cases, SGC flips are going to sell at a discount to the equivalent PSA flip. Outside this forum, most people prefer PSA, especially for post-war and modern, as evidenced by the relative pops.

[megalimey]

Some people must care about the PSA registry. I would buy the SGC card all day over the PSA graded one.

SGC card is better aesthetic looking card than PSA no argument not even close .
Under normal circumstances with identical cards PSA 9 will almost always out perform SGC ,this SGC card may be nicer but will still sell for less

[orly57]

And the funny thing is that if you tried crossing the card to psa, they wouldn't give it a 9 even if it warrants it. Their "objective" grading standards would fly out the window in the interest of protecting their brand. It's really the fault of the consumer for feeding into this nonsense. How a person in search of a high grade 49 Bowman Jackie, who has the option between these two cards, could actually CHOOSE the PSA (at a greater cost at that) is beyond me. The fisheye alone is enough to tilt the balance, never mind the substantial difference in registration and the color of the borders. The "it's just the way it is" mentality doesn't sit well with me. We on this board are the collectors/Consumers. We are part of the problem, and could be part of the solution if we shift the paradigm, and stop blindly accepting "the way it is."

[irv]

And the funny thing is that if you tried crossing the card to psa, they wouldn't give it a 9 even if it warrants it. Their "objective" grading standards would fly out the window in the interest of protecting their brand. It's really the fault of the consumer for feeding into this nonsense. How a person in search of a high grade 49 Bowman Jackie who has the option between these two cards, could actually CHOOSE the PSA (at a greater cost at that) is beyond me. The fisheye alone is enough to tilt the balance, never mind the substantial difference in registration and the color of the borders.

Bingo!

[bobbyw8469]

And the funny thing is that if you tried crossing the card to psa, they wouldn't give it a 9 even if it warrants it. Their "objective" grading standards would fly out the window in the interest of protecting their brand. It's really the fault of the consumer for feeding into this nonsense. How a person in search of a high grade 49 Bowman Jackie who has the option between these two cards, could actually CHOOSE the PSA (at a greater cost at that) is beyond me. The fisheye alone is enough to tilt the balance, never mind the substantial difference in registration and the color of the borders.

It happens time and time again...When Suzuki was around, people were saying their cars were really nice. The Verona was a top shelf car for a discounted price compared to a Honda. You got more bang for your buck. Now Suzuki is gone, and Honda is still around.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It happens time and time again...When Suzuki was around, people were saying their cars were really nice. The Verona was a top shelf car for a discounted price compared to a Honda. You got more bang for your buck. Now Suzuki is gone, and Honda is still around.

Try watches if you want to see absurd pricing based on brand name. You can pay thousands for a watch with literally the same movement, and similar quality fit and finish, as a watch at a fraction of the price. Only difference is the brand.

[orly57]

With watches, the watch itself is the product. With grading, the card is the "product" (for lack of a better term). You can sell a Patek in a Seiko box, and it's still a Patek.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With watches, the watch itself is the product. With grading, the card is the "product" (for lack of a better term). You can sell a Patek in a Seiko box, and it's still a Patek.

No, it's a good analogy. Same watch different brand; same card different flip.

[orly57]

The watch brand is more akin to 1949 Bowman vs Leaf than it is to PSA vs SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We can agree to disagree.

[orly57]

Agreed. Which is not to say there is no validity to your analogy. There is. I just don't think it is completely analogous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is a chronograph made by a meticulous one man shop in China. Whatever you think of the style, in hand it is just as nice or nicer in terms of quality than similar watches by the medium tier Swiss brands such as Tag, Baume and Mercier, etc. The movement is probably better than the generic ETA ones they use. It cost all of $400; change the name to one of those Swiss companies and it sells for multiples of that.

[RedsFan1941]

is it really "mind numbing" that psa's registry can impact the selling prices of high-grade cards?

this has been a reality in the hobby for years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

is it really "mind numbing" that psa's registry can impact the selling prices of high-grade cards?

this has been a reality in the hobby for years.

IMO it's not just the registry. On commons that is certainly most of the explanation, but on stars and HOFers, I think many people just perceive the company as better.

[Zach Wheat]

Normally in these threads I don't see the big deal, or even disagree with the premise completely. But this one is spot on, the SGC is SO much nicer it's mind-blowing.

Agreed....interested in seeing where the final sales prices.

Z

[darwinbulldog]

PSA has the marketing in their corner. Once upon a time for modern cards the perception was that a BGS 9.5 was harder to score than a PSA 10 and sold at a slight premium. Now the PSA 10 sells at a substantial premium.

This is a somewhat different case of course, as we can all see which of the two cards is nicer this time, but I don't put much faith in PSA slabs as a better long-term investment than SGC slabs. Over say 25 years, maybe the discrepancy remains constant, maybe it increases, maybe it decreases, maybe it flips. But paying a premium for a card that looks worse seems like the behavior of a bad investor (as opposed to either a collector or a good investor).

P.S. The '49 Bowman Jackie is an ugly card anyway.

[pokerplyr80]

I don't disagree with you Jesse, but how crazy is that? It is simply mind-numbing.

I think most collectors assume a card like that has already been submitted for a cross to a psa 9 and didn't make it. I sure would have tried. The perception is that PSA's standards are tougher and that it's difficult to cross straight across. I have no data to back that up, other than the couple of times I've tried to cross sgc to psa and failed.

Peter I don't really think the watch analogy fits in this case. People associate value and quality with a watch brand just like they do with cars, clothes, etc. That new Hyundai may claim to have the same features as an s550, but I'm not going to drop 100k on one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think most collectors assume a card like that has already been submitted for a cross to a psa 9 and didn't make it. I sure would have tried. The perception is that PSA's standards are tougher and that it's difficult to cross straight across. I have no data to back that up, other than the couple of times I've tried to cross sgc to psa and failed.

Peter I don't really think the watch analogy fits in this case. People associate value and quality with a watch brand just like they do with cars, clothes, etc. That new Hyundai may claim to have the same features as an s550, but I'm not going to drop 100k on one.

Right but my point is that at least in watches, and I don't know about cars, there is no good reason IMO to associate that quality and value with the higher priced brand. You can get the same or a higher quality watch for much much less. So I think it's right on point. It's the same phenomenon that leads people to pay more for the PSA brand.

[frankbmd]

Right but my point is that at least in watches, and I don't know about cars, there is no good reason IMO to associate that quality and value with the higher priced brand. You can get the same or a higher quality watch for much much less. So I think it's right on point. It's the same phenomenon that leads people to pay more for the PSA brand.

Did you know that Mercedes once purchased their clutches from Ford?

Same clutch different holder.

QED

[toledo_mudhen]

https://memorylaneinc.com/site/lots/gallery?search=1949%2brobinson&searchin=title

25% spread now with 2 weeks to go

[Huysmans]

Right but my point is that at least in watches, and I don't know about cars, there is no good reason IMO to associate that quality and value with the higher priced brand. You can get the same or a higher quality watch for much much less. So I think it's right on point. It's the same phenomenon that leads people to pay more for the PSA brand.

I think a more apt comparison would be if two identical watches were offered for sale in different boxes/cases.... with people willing to pay more just because they liked a certain box/case better.

[darwinbulldog]

The watch analogy would be fine, except if you wear a $10,000 designer watch that's very effective at signalling to rivals, potential mates, etc. that you have high status and wealth. That signal may be worth more than $10,000.

You could try strapping a PSA graded '52 Topps Mantle to your wrist, but I wouldn't expect you'd derive much social benefit from it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The watch analogy would be fine, except if you wear a $10,000 designer watch that's very effective at signalling to rivals, potential mates, etc. that you have high status and wealth. That signal may be worth more than $10,000.

You could try strapping a PSA graded '52 Topps Mantle to your wrist, but I wouldn't expect you'd derive much social benefit from it.

LOL too funny. In this day and age you can probably achieve the same effect with a PSA graded Mantle by posting one on your Facebook page though.

[orly57]

Funny you should say that Glenn. I had a similar thought when making the distinction, but didn't care to get into it. Potential clients don't care if my CJ Cobb is in a PSA or an SGC holder, but you better believe they are looking at my wrist.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Can banter all you want but its put your money where you mouth is...people will say buy the card not the holder...but when is there money and its over $10,000 they suddenly dont follow their logic..

$200 dollar cards is a lot different and easy to follow that philosophy..

But for the big dollar cards....sell the holder not the card always wins

[darwinbulldog]

For example:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-84-nm-7/a/7123-80724.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-psa-nm-7/a/7165-50785.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

[orly57]

For example:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-84-nm-7/a/7123-80724.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-psa-nm-7/a/7165-50785.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

Wow! I thought a side-by-side was appropriate. Maybe I was born to collect and not "invest," but I'm on the SGC one here ALL DAY as well. I would definitely put my money where my mouth is (as only Jake can put it) if I were in the market for a high-grade 52 mantle. Once again, it isn't even close.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scans could be part of the perceived difference. We have seen repeated evidence here that scans can change the appearance of a card for better and for worse.

[Pat R]

The SGC Mantle is substantially nicer but the prices also reflect that.

The SGC sold in May 2016 for $215.000 almost 40% higher than the
PSA which sold for $155,350 in November 2016.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The SGC Mantle is substantially nicer but the prices also reflect that.

The SGC sold in May 2016 for $215.000 almost 40% higher than the
PSA which sold for $155,350 in November 2016.

I think part of that may be due to the market drop from its (manipulated) peak in the spring/summer of 16.

[rats60]

Can banter all you want but its put your money where you mouth is...people will say buy the card not the holder...but when is there money and its over $10,000 they suddenly dont follow their logic..

$200 dollar cards is a lot different and easy to follow that philosophy..

But for the big dollar cards....sell the holder not the card always wins

Why can't it be both? If I was looking for a PSA 9, I wouldn't buy this PSA Robinson because of the print mark. I wouldn't buy SGC because it won't cross. Why pay 9 price for an 8 (or less)?

[Snapolit1]

[QUOTE=orly57;1684875]Funny you should say that Glenn. I had a similar thought when making the distinction, but didn't care to get into it. Potential clients don't care if my CJ Cobb is in a PSA or an SGC holder, but you better believe they are looking at my wrist.[/QUO

Do people actually still wear watches? I haven't worn a watch 10 times since I bought my first smart phone.

[pokerplyr80]

That Mantle is different because people pay big premiums for dead centered 51 and 52 Mantles. In the case of the 52 it can be more than double what a card in that grade would typically sell for. Both cards are very hard to find centered. A scenario like that it what it will take for an equivalent sgc grade to outsell a psa in the same auction.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Wow! I thought a side-by-side was appropriate. Maybe I was born to collect and not "invest," but I'm on the SGC one here ALL DAY as well. I would definitely put my money where my mouth is (as only Jake can put it) if I were in the market for a high-grade 52 mantle. Once again, it isn't even close.

right its just talk when you say 'If i were in the market' Go and buy a sgc 7 for more than the psa 7 goes and then talk about how pretty the card is....talk is cheap

[orly57]

right its just talk when you say 'If i were in the market' Go and buy a sgc 7 for more than the psa 7 goes and then talk about how pretty the card is....talk is cheap

I bought my sgc 5.5 1914 CJ Cobb for more than this psa 5 sold for (last public sale of a psa 5). Is that good enough for you? This is well over your made-up 10k threshold right? And since I'm not buying an sgc or a psa 7 mantle based on a dare from the forum-clown, you will have to take my word for it.
If you had read all the posts, you would know that the SGC Mantle at issue actually outsold that psa mantle, so it appears that a CARD collector actually did put their money where their mouth is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cherry picking two cards is not a meaningful comparison, for one thing you are leaving out the market trend between the two points of sale. Look at the overall pattern of SGC.

1/14/17 Memory Lane Image 55 $104,400.00
12/9/16 Goodwin Image 5 $87,846.00
10/30/16 Goldin Image 13 $82,075.00
8/28/16 Heritage Image 5 $89,625.00
5/14/16 Heritage Image 13 $215,100.00

And PSA.

2/4/16 Goldin Image 10 $183,750.00
11/19/16 Heritage Image 12 $155,350.00
11/3/16 Sports Card Link Image 27 $149,513.00
8/28/16 Heritage Image 11 $203,150.00
8/20/16 Memory Lane Image 37 $157,200.00
8/19/16 Mile High Image 20 $164,884.00
6/10/16 Goodwin Image 5 $218,650.00
3/7/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions s***e 87 $161,100.00

[orly57]

I didn't pick those cards. Someone else did. And I'm not debating that psa gets more than sgc, I am merely addressing the fact that IN CERTAIN INSTANCES it is absurd.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I didn't pick those cards. Someone else did. And I'm not debating that psa gets more than sgc, I am merely addressing the fact that IN CERTAIN INSTANCES it is absurd.

I never said you did, did I? :)

But yeah, I don't dispute that sometimes one sees really stupid prices.

[darwinbulldog]

To be clear, my post was in response to the claim that the PSA card always sells for more than the SGC card in the same grade. The use of "always" is a dare to cherry-pick on the grounds that it isn't actually possible to find a contradictory example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fair enough, but I still think the market change is largely responsible for the price gap between these particular cards.

[rats60]

Fair enough, but I still think the market change is largely responsible for the price gap between these particular cards.

It is no coincidence that the highest sales for both PSA and SGC copies were in May-June 2016 when lots of postwar rookies were at their peak and have dropped a lot since then.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is no coincidence that the highest sales for both PSA and SGC copies were in May-June 2016 when lots of postwar rookies were at their peak and have dropped a lot since then.

Exactly, so comparing a May SGC to a November PSA is not really comparing just based on the merits of the card.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I bought my sgc 5.5 1914 CJ Cobb for more than this psa 5 sold for (last public sale of a psa 5). Is that good enough for you? This is well over your made-up 10k threshold right? And since I'm not buying an sgc or a psa 7 mantle based on a dare from the forum-clown, you will have to take my word for it.
If you had read all the posts, you would know that the SGC Mantle at issue actually outsold that psa mantle, so it appears that a CARD collector actually did put their money where their mouth is.

the SGC was graded higher...lets see you buy a sgc 5 for what a psa 5 went in similar market conditions.....

i not daring anyone to buy anything....but talk is cheap and theres an awful lot of people saying what they would buy but not actually buying.....there are rare exceptions on every issue of course.... but easy to say and not actually buy. If something happens 9 out of 10 times in terms of price..id rather be on that side than the 1 out of 10 time if actually buying

[orly57]

Yep. The .5 was the deal-breaker for me. Guilty as charged! Perry Mason strikes again.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yep. The .5 was the deal-breaker for me. Guilty as charged! Perry Mason strikes again.

Well if you were going to cherry pick one of the last 10,000 sales to prove a point not sure you would pick one that would not support your point. No one is saying that higher graded SGCs havent sold for similiar or more than lower graded psa graded cards. If the .5 doesnt matter, i will try that on the next ps a 5.5 1952 mantle and tell the guy to sell it at a psa 5 price since the .5 means nothing especially in $10,000+ card. Perry Mason strikes again..

[Pat R]

I still think the exceptional centering and registration is the reason for the higher price on the Mantle not the timeframe of when it was sold.

The Mantle on the left sold for less than half the price at $104,000 on 5-1-16
while the one in question sold for $215,000 on 5-14-16 and I think this Mantle
would bring a higher price than a lot PSA 7's in the same auction.
282164

[orly57]

Well if you were going to cherry pick one of the last 10,000 sales to prove a point not sure you would pick one that would not support your point. No one is saying that higher graded SGCs havent sold for similiar or more than lower graded psa graded cards. If the .5 doesnt matter, i will try that on the next ps a 5.5 1952 mantle and tell the guy to sell it at a psa 5 price since the .5 means nothing especially in $10,000+ card. Perry Mason strikes again..

I didn't cherry-pick an example, but rather, I used a recent example out of my own collection to show you that I do, in fact, put my money where my mouth is. If you can look at my sgc 5.5 compared side-by-side to that psa 5, and your best hypothesis as to why I paid more is because of a half-grade, then I have to question the logic in debating you at all. They say that arguing with fools is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are, the pigeon will just shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
I will tell you this: if both those CJs were at auction TODAY (and mine magically lost it's immensely important half grade), not only would I pay more for the sgc, but I wouldn't even bid on the Psa.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I still think the exceptional centering and registration is the reason for the higher price on the Mantle not the timeframe of when it was sold.

The Mantle on the left sold for less than half the price at $104,000 on 5-1-16
while the one in question sold for $215,000 on 5-14-16 and I think this Mantle
would bring a higher price than a lot PSA 7's in the same auction.
282164

I would be shocked if the scans didn't have a lot to do with the apparent differences in color and registration. That scan on the right is radioactive for example. Obviously centering is what it is.

[Pat R]

I would be shocked if the scans didn't have a lot to do with the apparent differences in color and registration. That scan on the right is radioactive for example. Obviously centering is what it is.

I agree that the centering is the biggest factor Peter and the scan looks like
the colors have been enhanced but it still looks like better registration than
the other example, The same card sold four months later in a Heritage auction for $89,625.

Here are both of them with Heritage scans.
282167

[Gobucsmagic74]

the SGC was graded higher...lets see you buy a sgc 5 for what a psa 5 went in similar market conditions.....

i not daring anyone to buy anything....but talk is cheap and theres an awful lot of people saying what they would buy but not actually buying.....there are rare exceptions on every issue of course.... but easy to say and not actually buy. If something happens 9 out of 10 times in terms of price..id rather be on that side than the 1 out of 10 time if actually buying

So you buy the holder. Congrats. My view has always been why not buy the nicer, or even just equal quality, card graded by SGC and pay less money? Seems like a no-brainer but I collect on a fairly tight budget. If I was in the market for the Jackie's in the OP, I'd purchase the SGC for 20% less than the PSA every time

[Peter_Spaeth]

This should be a permanent sticky for anyone who doubts the power of scans and anyone glibly comparing cards based just on scans.

[orly57]

Peter, the AH scan is all anyone has to go off when they are bidding at auction. That cuts both ways on psa and sgc-graded cards. You bring up a very serious issue about AH's using questionable scans. The SGC 7 mantle looks almost too good to be true, and may well be a product of that practice. But this string began with two cards from the same auction taken presumably with the same scanner. The premise of the post was to compare two equally graded cards, one by sgc and one by psa, and ask if the holder is more valuable than the card even when the SGC is clearly a nicer card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, the AH scan is all anyone has to go off when they are bidding at auction. That cuts both ways on psa and sgc-graded cards. You bring up a very serious issue about AH's using questionable scans. The SGC 7 mantle looks almost too good to be true, and may well be a product of that practice. But this string begun with two cards from the same auction taken presumably with the same scanner. The premise of the post was to compare two equally graded cards, one by sgc and one by psa, and ask if the holder is more valuable than the card even when the SGC is clearly a nicer card.

Right, but the thread (like many) has evolved, I thought Patrick's scans presented an important opportunity to make a point, if a different one than the thread started with. I mean SO many times we see people here making judgments based on juxtaposing scans. "The one on the right has much better color and registration" blah blah. Well I could say that about the two I posted, couldn't I, other than the fact that they are the same card?

More critical thinking needed.

[orly57]

My world has been turned upside-down. I am now critically thinking. I must now make personal visits to all AHs and hold it in-hand before bidding on a card. I can no longer buy on eBay. I can't even admire nice cards anymore, and must assume that Battlefield is now the staff photographer at Heritage. I see the light now. I just wonder how this board can go on if we can't discuss images of cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There you go.

[irv]

This should be a permanent sticky for anyone who doubts the power of scans and anyone glibly comparing cards based just on scans.

Wow, what a difference! :eek:

[pokerplyr80]

My world has been turned upside-down. I am now critically thinking. I must now make personal visits to all AHs and hold it in-hand before bidding on a card. I can no longer buy on eBay. I can't even admire nice cards anymore, and must assume that Battlefield is now the staff photographer at Heritage. I see the light now. I just wonder how this board can go on if we can't discuss images of cards.

Despite the sarcasm a trip to an AH office might not be a bad idea before dropping a couple hundred grand on a card.

As for the 52 Mantles in this discussion the improved color in the heritage scan may have played a role, but I believe the centering difference alone is enough to justify the difference in price.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My world has been turned upside-down. I am now critically thinking. I must now make personal visits to all AHs and hold it in-hand before bidding on a card. I can no longer buy on eBay. I can't even admire nice cards anymore, and must assume that Battlefield is now the staff photographer at Heritage. I see the light now. I just wonder how this board can go on if we can't discuss images of cards.

Guess it's time for a trip to a live auction :D

[Leon]

Despite the sarcasm a trip to an AH office might not be a bad idea before dropping a couple hundred grand on a card.

As for the 52 Mantles in this discussion the improved color in the heritage scan may have played a role, but I believe the centering difference alone is enough to justify the difference in price.

I had that discussion (scans) with Heritage at the National. The way they do scans of cards isn't with a scanner. It is with a camera. Any difference in colors is not intentional....and I am as cynical as the next guy but trust me, I doubt any good AH is doctoring scans in today's age. And I don't think I am too naive....but please keep going...it's interesting.

.

[frankbmd]

I must admit that in my "Diminutive Surface Scuffing" thread that I did "doctor" the scans of the 55 Topps cards to make it easier for the naive among us to see the presumed defects. I suppose that some would argue that all my scans are "Doctored", but for the aforementioned thread I used SET (Scuff Enhancement Technology). So there :eek: , now I feel better. ;)

[orly57]

I must admit that in my "Diminutive Surface Scuffing" thread that I did "doctor" the scans of the 55 Topps cards to make it easier for the naive among us to see the presumed defects. I suppose that some would argue that all my scans are "Doctored", but for the aforementioned thread I used SET (Scuff Enhancement Technology). So there :eek: , now I feel better. ;)

Frank, I was more concerned with Brian's Hornsby card. It was in an SGC 2 holder in the Spring '14 REA auction, and recently appeared in a psa 9 holder. Obviously it has been doctored, though it may just be the scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I had that discussion (scans) with Heritage at the National. The way they do scans of cards isn't with a scanner. It is with a camera. Any difference in colors is not intentional....and I am as cynical as the next guy but trust me, I doubt any good AH is doctoring scans in today's age. And I don't think I am too naive....but please keep going...it's interesting.

.

The issue isn't scans versus pictures, obviously, as both can be adjusted. Intentional or not, it's hard for me to believe the hobby's biggest AH is not aware of the character of their pictures and the fact that they are relatively, shall we say, bright.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On the subject of 52T Mantle colors, what up with this one?

[orly57]

If that card weren't in a holder, I would bet a thousand bucks it is fake. But since it's in a bvg holder, I would only bet $500.

[orly57]

Sgc was behind by 50% yesterday, but just passed the PSA.

[Leon]

If that card weren't in a holder, I would bet a thousand bucks it is fake. But since it's in a bvg holder, I would only bet $500.

I have never seen a fake card in a BVG holder.

[orly57]

I was joking Leon.

[pokerplyr80]

Sgc was behind by 50% yesterday, but just passed the PSA.

Maybe the quality card will win out. I saw both at the national and it was clear the sgc card was a lot nicer. Not that it's not from the scan. But my initial prediction could be wrong if potential bidders got a chance to see both in person over the weekend.

[darwinbulldog]

The SGC card now leads by just over 15%. I'm thinking that'll hold, as long as we're making predictions.

[brianp-beme]

Frank, I was more concerned with Brian's Hornsby card. It was in an SGC 2 holder in the Spring '14 REA auction, and recently appeared in a psa 9 holder. Obviously it has been doctored, though it may just be the scans.

I have cracked it out of the PSA9 holder and am about to resubmit. Crossing my fingers for a PSA10 grade. After what I like to call a bit of card manipulation, I might just have a shot.

Brian (better late than Ernie Nevers)

[brian1961]

I join you all in asserting the superiority of the SGC 96 Jackie. I just cannot fathom why PSA would award a card with such a large, ugly fish-eye a MINT 9. They're totally wrong. At the very least, the label should have their qualifier for a print spot. Without taking another gander, even if the PSA Jackie has perfect centering, perfect print registry, strong color, and no other print spots, when I look at that card, my eyes go to "fish-eye" sore. The SGC 96 looks regal and presents perfectly.

Anyone bidding on the PSA crumb bum is obviously buying the holder, 'cause when the time comes and they open up their "new prized card", the fish-eye is gonna start winking at them with all its might. Regret is a powerful emotion, and they're going to get quite a dose of buyer's remorse.

---Brian Powell

[MW1]

I join you all in asserting the superiority of the SGC 96 Jackie. I just cannot fathom why PSA would award a card with such a large, ugly fish-eye a MINT 9. They're totally wrong. At the very least, the label should have their qualifier for a print spot. Without taking another gander, even if the PSA Jackie has perfect centering, perfect print registry, strong color, and no other print spots, when I look at that card, my eyes go to "fish-eye" sore. The SGC 96 looks regal and presents perfectly.

Anyone bidding on the PSA crumb bum is obviously buying the holder, 'cause when the time comes and they open up their "new prized card", the fish-eye is gonna start winking at them with all its might. Regret is a powerful emotion, and they're going to get quite a dose of buyer's remorse.

---Brian PowellI visited Memory Lane this last week and the PSA 9 Jackie Robinson is much nicer than it appears in the catalog or website. The borders are whiter and the color is much more vivid in person. The corners are also extremely sharp. Sure, it has the print mark, but other than that, it's a pretty spectacular card.

[BeanTown]

Clarity isn't that good, light strike and an obvious print dot (defect) in the card but because the corners are sharp and borders are white it's still OK to slab it a 9. Grades of 9 and 10 should be for special cards that do not have any issues IMO. Will also add if any no named collector submitted that card it gets a 7 "SEVEN" all day long and they would be happy with it to being accurately graded.

Would love to know who the consignor was of the card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

With a relatively major print flaw that detracts/distracts that much from the appearance, it should not be a 9. I wouldn't object to an 8, but still, that's not a 9. As a cynic, I too wonder who submitted it.

[JeremyW]

These two cards are up for auction on Memory Lane. As of right now, the PSA 9 is Edging out the SGC by about 10%. In my mind, the SGC example BLOWS AWAY the PSA by any measure (most notably the registration, the whiter borders, and that awful print-Mark). I am extremely interested to see which carries the day: the card or the holder.

Assuming they were scanned in the same manner, there is no comparison here. If you couldn't see who graded it, the SGC card would far outsell the PSA.

[jbl79]

WOW! The SGC example is over $91K while the PSA is at $39K.

[glynparson]

The Jackie looks like it was graded many years ago by the serial number. Back then even with the print dot a 9 was not shocking and from the looks and Mike's description I would have probably expected a 9 from 1992-2007. And before people scream that the standards should not change I agree but all three have tightened up in one way or another over the years in my opinion.

[gradedeflator]

Wow - strong sale on the JR SGC, but beautiful card...glad to see the market forces work as they should, someone buying the card, not the holder

I believe SGC has also graded two other high-end copies of the 1949 Bowman Jackie, one 98 and another 96. Curious what that SGC 98 might fetch.

[mantlefan]

A 1/8 inch piece of ink caused a $62,000 price difference! Amazing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A 1/8 inch piece of ink caused a $62,000 price difference! Amazing.

Welcome to the world of disposable income.

[BeanTown]

Welcome to the world of disposable income.

Just think what's going to happen when they learn about prewar cards. Once they stop paying for holders and start paying for rarity where POP matters then we are all in trouble.

[WWG]

Assuming they were scanned in the same manner, there is no comparison here. If you couldn't see who graded it, the SGC card would far outsell the PSA.

The SGC card is nicer than the PSA but SGC got it wrong when calling this a "rookie"

[darwinbulldog]

Just think what's going to happen when they learn about prewar cards. Once they stop paying for holders and start paying for rarity where POP matters then we are all in trouble.

Or can retire.

[rats60]

The SGC card is nicer than the PSA but SGC got it wrong when calling this a "rookie"

What do you think is his rookie? The hobby has always considered the 1949 Bowman and 1949 Leaf cards as Robinson's rookie cards.

[darwinbulldog]

There's plenty to choose from, but I like the 1947 D302 portrait.

[WWG]

What do you think is his rookie? The hobby has always considered the 1949 Bowman and 1949 Leaf cards as Robinson's rookie cards.

Didn't the 1948 Leaf card appear first? Many also consider the 1947 Bond Breads.

[rats60]

Didn't the 1948 Leaf card appear first? Many also consider the 1947 Bond Bread.

The Leaf cards came out in 1949, not 1948.

[1952boyntoncollector]

The Leaf cards came out in 1949, not 1948.

Still the Leaf cards of equal grade go for more than the bowman. i guess its the prime rookie card is leaf....

[Gobucsmagic74]

I think the question of which of Jackie's cards is his true RC is an intriguing question worthy of debate. There's been a ton of research that has taken place by board members discussing the issue and to me it's either the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait (white border) with facsimile auto, which I think most agree was a promo card or the 1947 D302 Bond Bread with cropped corners. There's absolutely no question both of these (along with the white bordered 12-card Jackie set) pre-date both the 1948 Leaf (actually produced in 1949) and the 1949 Bowman, but I don't think a consensus has been reached to date regarding which was Jackie's absolute first card. Pretty amazing considering the player and his impact on modern day sports and civil rights, much less baseball.

[WWG]

Still the Leaf cards of equal grade go for more than the bowman. i guess its the prime rookie card is leaf....

I would agree the Leaf goes for a lot more and SMR even labels it as (R) Rookie, not the Bowman

1948 Leaf
283887

1949 Bowman
283888

[Gobucsmagic74]

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

[rats60]

I think the question of which of Jackie's cards is his true RC is an intriguing question worthy of debate. There's been a ton of research that has taken place by board members discussing the issue and to me it's either the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait (white border) with facsimile auto, which I think most agree was a promo card or the 1947 D302 Bond Bread with cropped corners. There's absolutely no question both of these (along with the white bordered 12-card Jackie set) pre-date both the 1948 Leaf (actually produced in 1949) and the 1949 Bowman, but I don't think a consensus has been reached to date regarding which was Jackie's absolute first card. Pretty amazing considering the player and his impact on modern day sports and civil rights, much less baseball.

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

Yes, you are right. It's been pretty well documented that several of the 12 card set were produced after 1947, I should not have lumped all of them into the same category as the Portrait with facsimile autograph and the D302 with cropped corners. The regional vs. national question aside, its difficult for me not to view either, or at least one, of the 1947 Bond Breads as his true RC considering they both pre-date the Bowman and the Leaf by at least a full year. Factor in their relative scarcity (just over 100 graded Portrait with facsimile between SGC/PSA, not sure of the exact number on the D302 cropped corners) the argument could certainly be made that they are two of the more undervalued cards in the hobby.

[CharleyBrown]

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

The portrait-facsimile signature card was produced and distributed in the summer of 1947. Only 6 of the cards were produced and distributed in 1949. The other 6 between 1947 and 1948. The Old Gold card was also produced and distributed in 1947, though after the Bond Bread card.

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

[rats60]

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

[Gobucsmagic74]

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

[1952boyntoncollector]

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

[rats60]

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

[pokerplyr80]

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

[rats60]

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

SGC does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

[pokerplyr80]

SGC does.

I suppose that puts their hobby knowledge on par with their hobby relevance these days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suppose that puts their hobby knowledge on par with their hobby relevance these days.

I have never understood that designation on their flips. Obviously Dave Forman and everyone else there know it's not his RC.

[pokerplyr80]

I have never understood that designation on their flips. Obviously Dave Forman and everyone else there know it's not his RC.

I used to own an SGC graded 52 Mantle and didn't remember that. Had to dig through some old scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jesse, it's on every one I have ever seen.

[rats60]

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

Only when it comes to older releases. What regional is being hyped as Aaron Judge's RC? Check sold listings on ebay. Highest prices, recent sold, it's mostly Topps with a few Panini, no regional issues. The last 35+ years I have never seen a current regional set taken seriously as a rookie card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Only when it comes to older releases. What regional is being hyped as Aaron Judge's RC? Check sold listings on ebay. Highest prices, recent sold, it's mostly Topps with a few Panini, no regional issues. The last 35+ years I have never seen a current regional set taken seriously as a rookie card.

That may be because there aren't any? Suppose Clemente had been in 1954 Red Heart or Wilson Franks. You don't think anyone would be arguing that was his rookie?

[Gobucsmagic74]

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1914 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC

[Baseball Rarities]

In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

[WWG]

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

1915 Sporting News?

[Gobucsmagic74]

1915 Sporting News?

Yeah, unless you own the Baltimore News

[Gobucsmagic74]

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

[Baseball Rarities]

1915 Sporting News?

1914 Baltimore News

1916 M101-5/4 Felix Mendolsohn/Sporting News

[WWG]

1914 baltimore news

1916 m101-5/4 felix mendolsohn/sporting news

1915/16 m101-5 sporting news

283998

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, there is some definite confusion about the date of that issue, I am sure we have discussed it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

As applied to major league nationally distributed sets like the Fleer Update Clemens, and Topps Traded Bonds, that was really stupid, in my opinion. And of course the flip side was they were calling second year cards RCs.

[CharleyBrown]

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

[BeanTown]

Pre Rookie

[Gobucsmagic74]

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

So um, yeah. The 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Portrait is his true RC as far as I'm concerned. Others may disagree and that's fine. Thanks for sharing this knowledge Shaun.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card(s) ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

[Baseball Rarities]

1915/16 m101-5 sporting news

283998

That flip is incorrect. Both the M101-5 and M101-4 sets are from 1916.

[RedsFan1941]

Isn't Ted Z. the resident expert on these cards? Hopefully he will check in.

[Gobucsmagic74]

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

I should probably defer to Shaun because I know he's done extensive research and is an expert on the set, but I believe it was confirmed (by Shaun or possibly Ted Z...I can't remember) via advertising from the period that the Portrait with Facsimile Auto (white bordered card) was a promotional card distributed to retailers and that's why there were potentially more of those cards in existence and that survived. This is reflected in the population reports, with the number of Portrait w/ facsimile graded cards far exceeding the other 12 cards in the white bordered subset. That said there are only just over 100 graded Portrait w/ facsimile auto cards between SGC/PSA. Other cards in the subset are extremely rare (less than 15 graded in some cases and depending on the pose).

[CharleyBrown]

The Bond Bread portrait-facsimile from the set of 13 (white borders) was distributed both in stores (for free), and in promo packages with 2 slices of bread during the summer of 1947 (June-July). The exact date of the clipped corners BB card was either the Spring or Fall of 1947. The Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card was issued in September of 1947.

Regarding the set of 13 - there are 3 backs which help to clear the release date of each. The first card issued was the portrait-facsimile sig. Here's that card:

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/charleybrown/jackie-robinson-bond-bread-set-of-13/24945/1947-jackie-robinson-bond-bread-portrait-fac.-signature

The next batch of 6 came out between Fall of 1947 and late Spring / early Summer of 1948.

Here's an example of one of those 6 cards:

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/charleybrown/jackie-robinson-bond-bread-set-of-13/39706/1947-jackie-robinson-bond-bread-portrait-glove-in-air

The last batch of 6 cards came out late Summer of 1949. Here's an example of the back from that batch:

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/charleybrown/jackie-robinson-bond-bread-set-of-13/24948/1947-jackie-robinson-bond-bread-running-baseline

Please forgive my scan quality. I'll be investing in a top quality scanner in the fall and will update them.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?

[WWG]

Maybe the 1947 Bond Bread will get more attention and the price will skyrocket.

[MikeGarcia]

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?



..http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/19001JACKIEBGS_NEW.JPG


...1947 Brooklyn Dodgers Team Issue Photo Pack....this picture was used a lot ...

..

[Gobucsmagic74]

..http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/19001JACKIEBGS_NEW.JPG


...1947 Brooklyn Dodgers Team Issue Photo Pack....this picture was used a lot ...

..

I think he's wanting to know about the approximate release of the card he showed (with uncropped corners), which I understood to be a later release, compared to the D302 with the same image and cropped corners.

[OsFan]

As someone who began collecting vintage cards in the late 70s and who leaves and the re-enters the hobby every so many years, it's interesting that the discussion of which issue is the rookie card of some of the biggest names of the game has yet to be fully worked out.
In a way I guess that's part of what continues to make the hobby interesting after all these years.

[darwinbulldog]

On the rounded (or "cropped") vs. square corner issue, my recollection is that the dating here is based on Ted Z's having posted about his childhood memories of getting the rounded ones from loaves of bread that his family purchased for their restaurant(s) back in 1947 in conjunction with his having no memory of having seen the square corner ones pop up until more recent years.

[ls7plus]

There's plenty to choose from, but I like the 1947 D302 portrait.

The 1947 Bond Bread Exhibit (not actually from the Chicago Exhibit Supply Co.) is particularly elusive. The powers that be in the hobby used to call the 1933 Goudey Ruth his rookie too, in decades gone by. Whether a card is "mainstream" or a regional has ceased to matter much in the days of the internet and large auction house offerings--take a look at the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth or the various locally issued but scarce to extremely rare 1907 Ty Cobb issues. See also the 1921 Tip Top Lefty Grove. I got a kick out of an auction house recently calling the 1938 Goudey DiMaggio his "mainstream" rookie. T'ain't no such thing!

Regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

No such "requirement" exists now--that's early Beckett/dark ages hobby thinking. In the days of the internet and pervasive auction house offerings, regional versus national offerings has been trending enormously towards and will ultimately be a distinction without any significant difference.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[ls7plus]

That flip is incorrect. Both the M101-5 and M101-4 sets are from 1916.

Exactly right--same year of issue, although the numbering of the cards differs in some respects.

Regards,

Larry

[barrysloate]

As great as the Bond Bread issue is- and thanks Shaun for the useful information- they were a regional issue, pretty much available only in Brooklyn. Some collectors prefer that rookie cards were distributed nationally. It's fodder for debate.

[CharleyBrown]

As great as the Bond Bread issue is- and thanks Shaun for the useful information- they were a regional issue, pretty much available only in Brooklyn. Some collectors prefer that rookie cards were distributed nationally. It's fodder for debate.

Barry, they were available outside of Brooklyn as well. In NYC, they could be found in Brooklyn and Harlem. They were also available in these cities and their suburbs (I may be missing some as I'm on the phone away from my research): Washington DC, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Montreal.

While I've tracked down some cards from New Orleans, they were not purchased from the original owner, but rather pawn shop / dealers that bought them as part of a collection. Since I don't know if the person that sold to those dealers / pawn shops moved to New Orleans later in life, I can't confirm that they were available in that city.

[CharleyBrown]

That being said, I don't know about the clipped corner Bond Bread issue, as I have not researched it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, they were available outside of Brooklyn as well. In NYC, they could be found in Brooklyn and Harlem. They were also available in these cities and their suburbs (I may be missing some as I'm on the phone away from my research): Washington DC, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Montreal.

While I've tracked down some cards from New Orleans, they were not purchased from the original owner, but rather pawn shop / dealers that bought them as part of a collection. Since I don't know if the person that sold to those dealers / pawn shops moved to New Orleans later in life, I can't confirm that they were available in that city.

May I ask how you were able to find out that Bond Breads were sold in (for example) Baltimore and its suburbs in 1947? That's pretty impressive and have no idea how one would go about that.

[barrysloate]

Barry, they were available outside of Brooklyn as well. In NYC, they could be found in Brooklyn and Harlem. They were also available in these cities and their suburbs (I may be missing some as I'm on the phone away from my research): Washington DC, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Montreal.

While I've tracked down some cards from New Orleans, they were not purchased from the original owner, but rather pawn shop / dealers that bought them as part of a collection. Since I don't know if the person that sold to those dealers / pawn shops moved to New Orleans later in life, I can't confirm that they were available in that city.

Interesting. I would have assumed Manhattan, but surprised the cards were available in all those other cities. If that is the case, then why isn't the Bond Bread Jackie's rookie card? It really should be.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Where's Ted Z when you need him? Although not a pre-war discussion, I think this topic is worthy of it's own thread, which might catch the attention of more members who have extensively researched these cards (not to overlook the terrific knowledge provided by Shaun)

[Gobucsmagic74]

Link to the Bond Bread research thread. Man we really need those pics back!

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171169

[CharleyBrown]

Interesting. I would have assumed Manhattan, but surprised the cards were available in all those other cities. If that is the case, then why isn't the Bond Bread Jackie's rookie card? It really should be.

Barry, I think there are 4 reasons as to why it hasn't picked up more steam as being Jackie's official rookie card.

1) Jackie was the only player featured in the set of 13. I could be wrong, but I feel like most widely accepted RCs come from sets with multiple players.

2) The confusion on the release date. Because it was incorrectly believed for quite some time that all 13 cards were released in 1947, it is likely that most collectors didn't know which card should be considered his RC, so thereby figured the Leaf/Bowman options would be easier to classify as such.

3) While the card wasn't regional in terms of city distribution, it was primarily distributed in neighborhoods / suburbs with larger black / African-American populations. This doesn't mean that it wasn't available in neighborhoods where the demographic was primarily white, but the majority of distribution did happen where there was a larger black demographic. I think this is why the regional label does still stick.

4) Low pop numbers in comparison to the Leaf / Bowman issues. While the reported distribution numbers of the Bond Bread white borders portrait card were very high, the pop reports would lead one to believe otherwise. I think that the low pop numbers contribute as well to the regional label. As I mentioned in a previous reply, I believe that many of the people that received this card, and the other Bond Bread white border cards (D302) weren't necessarily baseball card collectors. As we know, Jackie's importance went well beyond the game, and would thus make this promotional item attractive to those that never bought a pack, etc.

I believe that there are many more of at least the white border portrait card out there. As for the remaining 12 - I'm not really sure. The distribution areas were the same, though the distribution #s aren't as clear on those just yet.

[barrysloate]

Shaun- maybe if there was more information regarding the issue date and distribution of the cards, collectors might look at them in a new light. I'm okay with the idea that most choose the 1949 Leaf, but that Bond Bread set is pretty darn interesting and deserves some further research.

[CharleyBrown]

Shaun- maybe if there was more information regarding the issue date and distribution of the cards, collectors might look at them in a new light. I'm okay with the idea that most choose the 1949 Leaf, but that Bond Bread set is pretty darn interesting and deserves some further research.

Agreed. I've been hoping to put together an article compiling all of my research - it's been a goal of mine for the last 2 years. Time has not been on my side, though. The closest thing for now is in a recent Goldin Auction catalog, which used my research in the write-up for a friend's set.

[barrysloate]

If you can find the time it would make for a great article.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Agreed. I've been hoping to put together an article compiling all of my research - it's been a goal of mine for the last 2 years. Time has not been on my side, though. The closest thing for now is in a recent Goldin Auction catalog, which used my research in the write-up for a friend's set.

The most compelling part for me from the previous archived thread on the subject was:

1) The advertisement which actually pictured the White Bordered Portrait w/ facsimile autograph card and invited consumers to come into their local grocer to pick up a card. This was used to pinpoint the release date of that particular card to the summer of 1947. Another interesting thing about this particular card is that it has a unique back compared to the other 12 and is the only card that includes biographical information about Jackie Robinson, rather than just advertising Bond Bread

2) The research which cross-references the original wire photos to the images on the cards and was utilized to verify that particular cards could not have been produced prior to the date on the photos.

3) The different backs and how it was hypothesized the cards were distributed in waves over a 2-3 year period.

The research was very compelling and was even more so with the photographic evidence provided. I'm basing all of this off memory and am pretty much plagiarizing the work that Shaun did along with Ted Z, but I know after reading through that thread I felt extremely confident that the White Bordered Jackie Portrait w/ facsimile autograph was almost definitely the first released on the 13 white bordered cards produced, was likely distributed in a different manner (retailer vs. packages of bread), and was likely a promotional card of sorts produced to gauge consumer response

[Gobucsmagic74]

Shaun, are you able to post the picture from the archived thread of the original advertising of the White Bordered Jackie Portrait w/ facsimile autograph? All the pics from the archived thread are gone. Also do you happen to have a link to the write up you did for your friend's set in the Goldin Auction catalog?

[DeanH3]

Dan, I think this is what you are looking for.

https://goldinauctions.com/mobile/lotdetail.aspx?inventoryid=27398&seo=extremely_scarce_1947_bond_bread_jackie_robins on_g

[Gobucsmagic74]

Dan, I think this is what you are looking for.

https://goldinauctions.com/mobile/lotdetail.aspx?inventoryid=27398&seo=extremely_scarce_1947_bond_bread_jackie_robins on_g

Thanks Dean! (although I don't see the write-up) :confused:

Edit to add: I'm guessing it's in the catalogue which I may still have. If not could someone possibly scan it and include it in this thread?

[DeanH3]

Dan, there should be a "+" (on the right hand side) where it says description. Click on that and it expands out with the write up. That's what I had to do to see it.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Dan, there should be a "+" (on the right hand side) where it says description. Click on that and it expands out with the write up. That's what I had to do to see it.

Ah, yes....thanks again Dean!

[DeanH3]

You're welcome Dan! :)

[CharleyBrown]

Shaun, are you able to post the picture from the archived thread of the original advertising of the White Bordered Jackie Portrait w/ facsimile autograph? All the pics from the archived thread are gone. Also do you happen to have a link to the write up you did for your friend's set in the Goldin Auction catalog?

I do have a majority of the pictures saved in a folder on my flash drive. I will upload everything tomorrow.

I also want to give a shoutout to Mike (71buc), because it was he who got the ball rolling on much of this research. He's also the individual who sold me the type 1 photo used for the Sliding card. :)

[Gobucsmagic74]

Awesome Shaun...thanks man!

[Gobucsmagic74]

Link to Beckett article on the 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson 13-card set and a couple images from the August 1947 Baltimore Afro American news advertising the promo card

http://www.beckett.com/news/1947-jackie-robinson-bond-bread/

[CharleyBrown]

Link to Beckett article on the 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson 13-card set and a couple images from the August 1947 Baltimore Afro American news advertising the promo card



Thanks for the link. The first Bond Bread advertisement featuring Jackie Robinson was in the June 24, 1947 issue. This same ad would be featured again on June 28, and also in July. The first advertisement in the Baltimore newspaper inviting readers to stop by their local grocer for the card was August 16, 1947.

http://shaunfyffe.com/bondbread/June-24-1947-Bond-Bread-Ad.png

http://shaunfyffe.com/bondbread/Aug-16-1947-Bond-Bread-Ad.png

The final Jackie Robinson Bond Bread advertisement was in the October 15, 1949 paper.

http://shaunfyffe.com/bondbread/Oct-15-1949-Bond-Bread-Ad.png

These ads were also ran in other newspapers targeting the black / African-American demographic.

I believe I mentioned this in the other thread, but the portrait-facsimile card white borders (D302) card was first distributed in June via promo packages with the card, a coupon and 2 slices of bread. Come August, it was made available in grocers. The remaining 12 cards were distributed in this same manner (grocers distributing the cards). Here is an example of one that came from the Cardozo Market, which was located in DC at the time. The current address is no longer a business, but the store front and building were converted into a residential building / home. There was also a Cardozo in Baltimore, but this address is from the location in DC.

http://shaunfyffe.com/bondbread/bond_bread_cardozo_dc.jpg


On another note... the Old Gold card that is listed as a 1948 release was actually released in September. Here's the first ad featuring that card:

http://shaunfyffe.com/bondbread/Sep-27-1947-Old-Gold-Ad.png

This ad lines up with a September release date, which is when I believe the original owner of this card acquired his (based on the writing in pencil on the card):

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/charleybrown/jackie-robinson/39829/1948-old-gold-jackie-robinson-kneeling

[Gobucsmagic74]

Awesome, just awesome. Thanks so much Shaun!

[CharleyBrown]

May I ask how you were able to find out that Bond Breads were sold in (for example) Baltimore and its suburbs in 1947? That's pretty impressive and have no idea how one would go about that.

Peter,

I completely missed your post. I used library archives, leads from fellow members, and social media.