Ty Cobb Card Market?

[Westside]

What are everybody's thoughts on how hot the Ty Cobb card market is? Is this something that will continue for long term? Is it about to end? Is there going to be a correction in the prices? What are everybody's thoughts?

[wondo]

I've been able to buy some of Cobb's offbeat cards for, what I thought, were very reasonable prices. I picked up a E253 and a T202. Not sure about the stratospheric early postcards.

[sterlingfox]

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

[jb217676]

I think the tough Ty Cobb postcards will keep increasing in demand/price. Lot of people want them, so few out there.

[T206Collector]

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

There are just so many - I tend to agree. But people who pay these prices are unlikely to be auctioning them off any time soon I would guess.

[pherbener]

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

The price was crazy but that was the nicest 3 I've ever seen!

[ullmandds]

The price was crazy but that was the nicest 3 I've ever seen!

+1

[Rhotchkiss]

$14k+ is definitely way healthy for a 3 (anyone wanna buy my 6 for $35k?), but it does continue a trend I have been noticing - buying the card instead of the grade. A gorgeous 51 bowman mantle SGC 4 went for a ton last night, but it looks nicer than many 6's I have seen. And look what the yellow Ruth goudey 6 went for - very high for a 6 but great looking card

[barrysloate]

$14k+ is definitely way healthy for a 3 (anyone wanna buy my 6 for $35k?), but it does continue a trend I have been noticing - buying the card instead of the grade. A gorgeous 51 bowman mantle SGC 4 went for a ton last night, but it looks nicer than many 6's I have seen. And look what the yellow Ruth goudey 6 went for - very high for a 6 but great looking card

I was bidding on that 51B Mantle specifically because of the great centering and eye appeal, but it went much higher than I was hoping. Look how it went for more than double the price of the PSA 4 Mantle, which was blurry and O/C. It's good to see that collectors are at times looking past the label and actually recognizing that some cards look a whole lot better than others of the same grade.

[ullmandds]

I was bidding on that 51B Mantle specifically because of the great centering and eye appeal, but it went much higher than I was hoping. Look how it went for more than double the price of the PSA 4 Mantle, which was blurry and O/C. It's good to see that collectors are at times looking past the label and actually recognizing that some cards look a whole lot better than others of the same grade.

Agree! It seems that perhaps collectors are maturing a bit in that regard...paying top prices for nice cards in mid grade regardless of the # or Grader on the flip.

[Econteachert205]

If the stock market, especially tech stumbles, watch as people puke up cards left and right. Not saying this will happen.

[pherbener]

I was bidding on that 51B Mantle specifically because of the great centering and eye appeal, but it went much higher than I was hoping. Look how it went for more than double the price of the PSA 4 Mantle, which was blurry and O/C. It's good to see that collectors are at times looking past the label and actually recognizing that some cards look a whole lot better than others of the same grade.

I was bidding on it too. I was hoping for around 10K...... not so much!!

[jthorst75]

What sale was this green Cobb at $14,400? I would like to see how good it really is.

[3-2-count]

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetwocount/threetwocount/websize/cobbgreen.jpg

[jthorst75]

Wow. Seems like a high premium for perfect centering. Nice result!

[barrysloate]

I was bidding on it too. I was hoping for around 10K...... not so much!!

I was thinking around 10K too, but living in NY I also have to figure sales tax into the equation. So I am at around a one increment disadvantage to bidders in tax free states.:(

And that T206 green Cobb looks like it should have been graded a 5. Why do so many cards appear to be over or under graded? I just don't get it. Those two VG-Ex 51B Mantles didn't look anything like each other, they were night and day, yet both received the same grade. It makes no sense.

[Stonepony]

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

Perhaps they were buying the card and not the flip??

[sterlingfox]

Perhaps they were buying the card and not the flip??

I agree, but still, these T206 Cobbs (especially the green portrait) are rising much faster than any other player in the set and there are lots of them out there. At some point, the inflation will stop and prices will correct.

[MR RAREBACK]

Hope green cobbs go down before the national

[mechanicalman]

The Green Cobb 3 went a little higher than I expected, (so much so that I feared there might be some comments on the board.) But it was a "white whale" for me, and it will be a centerpiece of my collection for many years. (I'm not a dealer, flipper, or investor.) I love the Tigers, Ty Cobb, and I value color and centering more than any other aspects of a card. I used to be a "minimum grade" guy, but the many examples of beautiful cards with lower grades shown on this board really changed my thinking to "buying the card." Will I get a strong financial return? Who knows what will happen in 20-30 years. But I will enjoy it immensely over that time.

[tiger8mush]

The Green Cobb 3 went a little higher than I expected, (so much so that I feared there might be some comments on the board.) But it was a "white whale" for me, and it will be a centerpiece of my collection for many years. (I'm not a dealer, flipper, or investor.) I love the Tigers, Ty Cobb, and I value color and centering more than any other aspects of a card. I used to be a "minimum grade" guy, but the many examples of beautiful cards with lower grades shown on this board really changed my thinking to "buying the card." Will I get a strong financial return? Who knows what will happen in 20-30 years. But I will enjoy it immensely over that time.

Congrats on a nice pickup!

[DeanH3]

The Green Cobb 3 went a little higher than I expected, (so much so that I feared there might be some comments on the board.) But it was a "white whale" for me, and it will be a centerpiece of my collection for many years. (I'm not a dealer, flipper, or investor.) I love the Tigers, Ty Cobb, and I value color and centering more than any other aspects of a card. I used to be a "minimum grade" guy, but the many examples of beautiful cards with lower grades shown on this board really changed my thinking to "buying the card." Will I get a strong financial return? Who knows what will happen in 20-30 years. But I will enjoy it immensely over that time.

Congrats Sam. It's a beautiful card. I have over-paid on many occasional as well. But as long as you're happy, that's all that matters. You will enjoy that card every time you look at it.

[clydepepper]

Latest Beckett Vintage Collector certainly thinks this is a very strong market for T206 Cobb cards. Ty is the cover boy.

That '3' is definitely the best '3' I've seen...though I usually don't watch that grade very much (as if I can afford my usual '5' - NOT)


I have to wonder if all the new attention to Cobb may also be tied (to some degree) to the new, more flattering Cobb books that have come out.




.

[ullmandds]

beautiful card Sam...and congrats! I hope it is as stunning in hand as it appears to be in scan!!!!

[Sean]

Hey Sam, nice going. That is a really strong three. But the important thing is that you'll be owning it for 20+ years. I've always heard that when it comes to high end cards, you can never pay too much, you can only pay too soon.

In your case that Cobb may or may not be worth that much right now, but it will certainly be worth much more by the time that you're ready to sell. :)

[mechanicalman]

beautiful card Sam...and congrats! I hope it is as stunning in hand as it appears to be in scan!!!!

Thanks for the kind words, guys. And Pete, I share your hope. I've found Heritage scans to be a bit "generous" in the past. Truly hoping that's not the case here.

[BeanTown]

I think the tough Ty Cobb postcards will keep increasing in demand/price. Lot of people want them, so few out there.

The secret is out on postcards. The minuscule population makes them center pieces for many collections. Here is a little gallery I did awhile ago testing another board members knowledge on them. Any Cobb collector should gladly over pay on any of these in the collage, as I know I would!

[BeanTown]

Second collage of rare Cobb Postcards

[orly57]

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

[Bicem]

3 of those are not postcards, can you id them?

[botn]

I was thinking around 10K too, but living in NY I also have to figure sales tax into the equation. So I am at around a one increment disadvantage to bidders in tax free states.:(

And that T206 green Cobb looks like it should have been graded a 5. Why do so many cards appear to be over or under graded? I just don't get it. Those two VG-Ex 51B Mantles didn't look anything like each other, they were night and day, yet both received the same grade. It makes no sense.

Hi Barry,

Always nice to see you posting. Welcome back. While I agree with you about the inherent flaws in grading and lack of consistency, there is more that can be seen with a card in hand than can be seen even in a massive Heritage scan. It has been my consistent experience that when you see a pic of a card that appears 2 or 3 graders lower than assessed there is a justifiable reason.

Greg

[orly57]

3 of those are not postcards, can you id them?

The 2 Azoras (schedules) and Pinkerton (different backs).

[orly57]

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

[Bicem]

Well done, well done. Your Cobb postcard knowledge has officially surpassed JC's.

[Sean]

Jay, is the photo that was used for a couple of those postcards also the photo that was used for the T206 Cobb bat-off-the shoulder card?

[orly57]

Well done, well done. Your Cobb postcard knowledge has officially surpassed JC's.

Lol, thanks. He owns all 3, so I am pretty sure he is aware. And he actually taught me.

[sterlingfox]

If that card is as nice in hand as the scan shows, then it's definitely worth a premium. I'm just saying that this exact same card a few years ago probably wouldn't have even hit 5k. It's the sudden and extreme inflation on the green Cobb that I'm trying to point out.

As a side note, I've never spent even 1k on a card, let alone 14k. As a collector, I value depth in a collection vs just a few standout cards, but that's just me. Most of my tobacco era stuff is VG and under, and I enjoy all of it immensely, even if it doesn't have perfect centering and color. I'd much rather have 14 different Cobb issues (that still present well) worth 1k each than this one amazing green Cobb.

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

[A2000]

Would love to see a picture of the 3 Cobb that sold yesterday in regular lighting and at an angle.

[Directly]

Supply V/S demand

Its interesting the green background prices v/s the supply?

(PSA Pop)--all grades---Green 759--Bat/On 800----Bat/off 931--Red 1830--Total 4,320 cards (40 percent of the graded four are the red variety )


The PSA Pop between the Green v/s Bat/On is = 41 cards graded but a usually a very noticeable difference in prices in any grade--demand?


The PSA Pop report between the Bat/on v/s Red = 1,030 more Red background cards--prices don't reflect supply--demand?


Note: seems some disparity in higher prices with the red background with 899 more graded cards than the Bat/off variety.--demand?


Then add the equation for the back variations and grade scale ?-this becomes even more complicated


With Grading being all over the place within the same grade scale 3's with creases then others same 3 grade and no crease, I agree with eye appeal--I was looking at a PSA 3 Cobb on auction, contacted the seller, and was advised there was a light crease, wasn't noticeable by the posted picture, the bids just kept on going up.


The question, will T206 Cobbs see any price correction boils down to the long time business equation **Supply/Demand** come on--these Antique cards are over 100 years of age, being wonderful in any grade !!!--are graded 1950-60's over priced--let the buyers decide!


I bought a couple T206 Cobbs a few weeks ago and was advised I paid too much--I said who cares they aren't for sale, I liked them--I determined the value for me, not for them!---

[BeanTown]

Sam, great Green Cobb and congrats on the pickup. I had that on my watch list.

Jeff, I should say Postcard size cards.

Orlando, way to answer Jeff's trivia, and wonder if most would know which ones you named.

[botn]

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

Huh? A crease is a crease for purposes of assessing a card's grade or the impact the existence of a crease has on the eventual grade. A little bit pregnant is still pregnant, no? To think otherwise is deluding oneself, at a minimum. The market has always been incredibly efficient in putting a value on a high grade example over a low grade example and that green Cobb is a perfect example.

I was not making an argument that the green Cobb should sell for what a lower grade example would sell for. Only trying to point out that in spite of great eye appeal, the technical flaws in a card, that we either can or cannot see in a scan (or in person) will impact the grade. Sometimes they are not immediately obvious.

[darwinbulldog]

Some pregnant women have better eye appeal than others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

[orly57]

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

No. Other people have eyes too. I don't think Sam bid it up to 14k by himself.

[orly57]

Huh? A crease is a crease for purposes of assessing a card's grade or the impact the existence of a crease has on the eventual grade. A little bit pregnant is still pregnant, no? To think otherwise is deluding oneself, at a minimum. The market has always been incredibly efficient in putting a value on a high grade example over a low grade example and that green Cobb is a perfect example.

I was not making an argument that the green Cobb should sell for what a lower grade example would sell for. Only trying to point out that in spite of great eye appeal, the technical flaws in a card, that we either can or cannot see in a scan (or in person) will impact the grade. Sometimes they are not immediately obvious.

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire. It is, after all, the same as a hidden crease right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire.

In my opinion it's a higher than usual risk proposition to pay a huge premium over the grade for eye appeal, on a card that's relatively easy to find. I guess we just disagree. In any event, Sam is happy, so it's really more a debate about philosophy than this specific card.

[orly57]

Jay, is the photo that was used for a couple of those postcards also the photo that was used for the T206 Cobb bat-off-the shoulder card?

From the collages that JC posted, I think only the novelty cutlery and PC796 (same central images) COULD be the same image used in the t206 bat-off. It is certainly the same image used in his CJ. The hand placement on the bat is similar, but I don't know if the artist on the t206 bat-off went off this image or not. He obviously didn't do a great job since doesn't look much like Cobb as it is! They did a poor job on the bat-on as well. Looks nothing like Cobb when you compare it to the much more accurate depiction of that pose on the T3. Maybe someone on here will know.

[LEHR]

Congratulations Sam. That is by far the best "3" Cobb I've seen. Great card!

[mechanicalman]

Congratulations Sam. That is by far the best "3" Cobb I've seen. Great card!

Thank you Paul. I really appreciate that.

[Rhotchkiss]

Sam, it's a beautiful card. Enjoy and who cares the price - it's yours and it's great!

[orly57]

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

[botn]

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire. It is, after all, the same as a hidden crease right?

Wow I think ya might want to have someone read my posts to you and try to explain them to you. Both of my posts are referring to technical aspects of assessing a card's grade and the school of thought that is applied by the graders when doing so, which seems to have gone way over your head.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

Overpay is the key word. I would guess that people who bought during the height of the mania will have a hard time getting back what they paid for some of those lesser grades.

[orly57]

Wow I think ya might want to have someone read my posts to you and try to explain them to you. Both of my posts are referring to technical aspects of assessing a card's grade and the school of thought that is applied by the graders when doing so, which seems to have gone way over your head.

Well thanks for your contribution. You could have saved some time and just posted psa's grading standards. If you are going to just parrot them, then you really contribute nothing to this conversation. A crease is a crease of course of course. Perhaps you can step out of that box where you live, and maybe do a bit of critical thinking. Maybe you can question why all creases should be treated the same, rather than just blindly accepting it. Perhaps, you can ask yourself why an ugly 5 is more valuable than a gorgeous 3. If the populations are about the same, there is nothing inherently more valuable about that 5. It's just a numeric grade which tells us the microscopic condition of cardboard. Nothing more. Grades provide WONDERFUL guidelines for us, but should not be the end all be all. That is enough critical thinking for you for today. You may go back into your box now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What are you proposing Orlando? A grading scale based entirely on subjective eye appeal? If not, then any scale with "objective" standards is necessarily going to have some outliers where the card looks better than the technical grade, but so what?

[botn]

Well thanks for your contribution. You could have saved some time and just posted psa's grading standards. If you are going to just parrot them, then you really contribute nothing to this conversation. A crease is a crease of course of course. Perhaps you can step out of that box where you live, and maybe do a bit of critical thinking. Maybe you can question why all creases should be treated the same, rather than just blindly accepting it. Perhaps, you can ask yourself why an ugly 5 is more valuable than a gorgeous 3. If the populations are about the same, there is nothing inherently more valuable about that 5. It's just a numeric grade which tells us the microscopic condition of cardboard. Nothing more. Grades provide WONDERFUL guidelines for us, but should not be the end all be all. That is enough critical thinking for you for today. You may go back into your box now.

Boy someone is very defensive:D. My initial post was to Barry but you decided to reply to me and in so doing completely twist my post due to some hang up of yours. Nice job! I get that you dig centered 1s with great eye appeal. Unlike all of your self-serving posts, none of mine were stating what my opinion or beliefs are about the eye appeal of cards or their value in the hobby. I am typing this slowly hoping that it sinks in. Must have been a rough week for you in court.

[orly57]

No peter, that would be madness, and inevitably lead to anarchy. I am proposing that we use the grades as guidelines, but not get so hung up on them when applying value. And I propose that a crease on the face be treated more harshly than an innocuous invisible crease. Same with paper loss.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No peter, that would be madness, and inevitably lead to anarchy. I am proposing that we use the grades as guidelines, but not get so hung up on them when applying value. And I propose that a crease on the face be treated more harshly than an innocuous invisible crease. Same with paper loss.

This seems a straw man point. Nobody uses grades as the sole determinant of value, or suggested that. Certainly Greg did not, as I read it.

[orly57]

Boy someone is very defensive:D. My initial post was to Barry but you decided to reply to me and in so doing completely twist my post due to some hang up of yours. Nice job! I get that you dig centered 1s with great eye appeal. Unlike all of your self-serving posts, none of mine were stating what my opinion or beliefs are about the eye appeal of cards or their value in the hobby. I am typing this slowly hoping that it sinks in. Must have been a rough week for you in court.

Self serving? I don't sell cards, and my only 1 is a pop 5 Cobb. And I "dig" all nice looking cards regardless of grade. I choose not to be a slave to societal norms and question things that don't make sense. Like how typing slowly can somehow express your position more clearly.

[orly57]

This seems a straw man point. Nobody uses grades as the sole determinant of value, or suggested that. Certainly Greg did not, as I read it.

Or it is maybe THE PREMISE OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

[Touch'EmAll]

The market recognized that not all 3's are the same. The market took into account all facets of the card - the great centering, color, focus...and a minor technical flaw that makes the flip read "3". All things considered, the market priced the card high and possibly very correct when compared to an average "3".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or it is maybe THE PREMISE OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

I don't think so. Nobody said only the grade matters. But it matters some. It would be as foolish to think the grade is irrelevant, as to think it's the sole determinant. It's some combination of both in most cases except where it's a truly commodity card in which case the flip rules.

[barrysloate]

Hi Greg,
Thanks for your comments and I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here, but my feeling is grading is subjective and that there really aren't that many objective standards in the grading process. That's why I hate the numeric grades cards receive because it's pretending that there really is an objective and precise standard. That's why the same card can be resubmitted several times and get a different grade each time.

I think eye appeal is very important and should be part of the grading process. If a card is ugly for the grade, good chance it's overgraded. If it's "the best 3 I've ever seen", maybe it is in fact better than a 3. I'm just not a big fan of third party grading in its current form, and think it could be done a whole lot better. Not saying I have the answer to how it should be done, I'm just not a fan.

[BeanTown]

What does it take to become a grader at either SGC or PSA? I think I've read on a previous thread that PSA graders are allowed like 15 seconds to look at a card, to determine the grade. Maybe that applies in what kind of service the customer paid for or value of the card?

Grading changed the hobby, which has allowed for subjective opinions to be traded like commodities.

I would have loved to see a grading company back in the early 2000s, just grade the card saying it's either fake, altered, or genuine and un tampered with. In other words KIS (Keep It Simple).

[Tim Kindler]

Sam,
Congratulations on landing a beautiful Cobb! I've always thought that whether you can easily afford a card like this, or you have scratched and scraped to earn extra spending money for a long time to purchase a card like this; as long as you are happy with it, then its a good buy no matter what happens in the market place.:D
Happy Collecting Everyone!
Tim Kindler

[Westside]

I bought a heavily creased red background T206 Ty Cobb back in 2002 or there abouts for $350 off Ebay and sold it a year later for $325. I didnt really buy many cards or really keep up with the hobby for a few years. During that time, I regretted selling the card and decided a couple years ago to buy another. I was surprised when I started looking around how much the prices had gone up. I found one a couple months ago with a small chuck missing and a little paper loss on the back for $400 which I bought. I actually like it better than my first Cobb. Could I have gotten one similar cheaper? In other words, did I over pay? I have no idea, and I don't care. I am really happy with it. That's is what is most important to me.

[tiger8mush]

This seems a straw man point. Nobody uses grades as the sole determinant of value, or suggested that. Certainly Greg did not, as I read it.

I think SOME people do, cuz we've seen examples of the SAME card magically reholdered in a slab with a higher grade and it sells at an AH for many multiples of the original sale price. The registry sometimes drives blind love for the grade on the flip regardless of what is inside the plastic.

[Westside]

The Green Cobb 3 went a little higher than I expected, (so much so that I feared there might be some comments on the board.) But it was a "white whale" for me, and it will be a centerpiece of my collection for many years. (I'm not a dealer, flipper, or investor.) I love the Tigers, Ty Cobb, and I value color and centering more than any other aspects of a card. I used to be a "minimum grade" guy, but the many examples of beautiful cards with lower grades shown on this board really changed my thinking to "buying the card." Will I get a strong financial return? Who knows what will happen in 20-30 years. But I will enjoy it immensely over that time.

That is a beautiful card. If I had the disposable income, I would have happily paid that much for that particular Cobb. Congrats! I'm envious.

[MattyC]

Sam,
Congratulations on landing a beautiful Cobb! I've always thought that whether you can easily afford a card like this, or you have scratched and scraped to earn extra spending money for a long time to purchase a card like this; as long as you are happy with it, then its a good buy no matter what happens in the market place.:D
Happy Collecting Everyone!
Tim Kindler

+1. Congrats on the very pretty Cobb, Sam. Part of a great collection you have. We buy our cards for our enjoyment with our own money, not so some stranger on the internet can tell us if they think we made a wise investment, or not.

[Westside]

Sam,
Congratulations on landing a beautiful Cobb! I've always thought that whether you can easily afford a card like this, or you have scratched and scraped to earn extra spending money for a long time to purchase a card like this; as long as you are happy with it, then its a good buy no matter what happens in the market place.:D
Happy Collecting Everyone!
Tim Kindler

+2

[VintageBen]

Congrats Sam on the awesome pickup!!! The card is amaaaaaaazzzzzzzing!!!!

[Mdmtx]

I overpay occasionally but my time, the right card and paying using interest free terms or cash is my rationale.

I am not implying any here does this, but I know it happens. A guy argues and negotiates or spends countless hours to try and find his bargain. Then plunks down his MasterCard and pays 10-20% interest making minimum payments. That mentality makes buyers premium sound cheap as well as the countless hours of TIME scouring for that specimen priced slightly below what someone else paid. I could not care what someone else pays or paid for an item. My buying decision is solely based upon its value to me. If I make a few bucks down the road, great. But that is not my driver for my buying decision.

I made a living selling cards all through the 80's, not interested in doing that again. Was a great experience but my return to collecting 3 or 4 years ago was to seek things I like. Nothing more. Nothing less. My collection has morphed a little in the past 90 days or so and instead of chasing a smorgasbord of everything, I have mostly pursued 19th century boxing, baseball and non sport. I sold most of the 50's and 60's baseball I had amassed over the last few years to help finance it. Got a financial ass licking on a couple things. Made a few bucks on some others. When it's all said and done probably a net sum zero. Anyway, that's my .02

[ls7plus]

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetwocount/threetwocount/websize/cobbgreen.jpg

Absolutely beautiful card, and a great example of buying the card and not the holder. Great purchase, Sam! Collectors and the market are indeed maturing!

May your collecting persevere in the face of adversity and bring you happiness,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Hey Sam, nice going. That is a really strong three. But the important thing is that you'll be owning it for 20+ years. I've always heard that when it comes to high end cards, you can never pay too much, you can only pay too soon.

In your case that Cobb may or may not be worth that much right now, but it will certainly be worth much more by the time that you're ready to sell. :)

+1.

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

The secret is out on postcards. The minuscule population makes them center pieces for many collections. Here is a little gallery I did awhile ago testing another board members knowledge on them. Any Cobb collector should gladly over pay on any of these in the collage, as I know I would!

You got that right, Jay. The 1907 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb and the 1907 Wolverine News Cobb Portrait are centerpieces of my collection.

Highest regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

You know I'm right there with you on that, Orly. Cobb will always be one of the game's greatest icons!

Highest regards always,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

+10,000 on that too!

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

Grades do matter, but we had this discussion years ago on a thread I started: eye appeal can and often does trump technical grade, unless the "collector" is really buying plastic slabs with a certain flip inside.

Best wishes, Pete,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

+1 on the '52 Mantles, although I think "readily available" is an enormous understatement. It appears that there is an endless stream of them. And take note as to the large number appearing in the newer PSA holders--lots of ungraded specimens in old-time collections finding their way to market when the prices are just too good to be true for lower grade copies??? In the '90's, one author estimated that 15,000 examples existed--he may well have been off by a factor of 2 or three!

But may your collecting always bring you joy,

Larry

[jeffmohler]

What did the Dietsche Cobb Fielding and Cobb Batting end up at in the Heritage Auction? I find the website difficult to navigate.

I am glad I picked up my Cobb Fielding a few years ago from Jeff Lichtman when he upgraded his copy.

[ullmandds]

fielding $5520

batting $4080

[rgpete]

Any chance of the not so popular Sweet Caporal Domino Disc PX7 to have a chance like the cards and post cards so see an increase

[ullmandds]

Any chance of the not so popular Sweet Caporal Domino Disc PX7 to have a chance like the cards and post cards so see an increase

dare to dream!!!:p

[rgpete]

dare to dream!!!:p

A sarcastic way of saying In your dreams

[ullmandds]

A sarcastic way of saying In your dreams

Interpret as u wish!!!!! Rising tides tend to benefit all cards of a given player...look at ruth...but coins and pins...i have no idea...not my thing!!!

[T206Collector]

I think eye appeal is very important and should be part of the grading process.

I disagree. The problem with the single number is people paying the same for all PSA 3 Cobbs, which here our buyer obviously did not do. The purpose of TPG, particularly in the internet age -- and with Heritage's super-bright scans, which the buyer here acknowledged above -- is to show the hidden flaws. That card would've been sold as EX-MT 25-30 years ago. Not today.

As I've said before here, grading is a pyramid. At the top, you have the 10s. 10 means perfection and thus all 10s will be identical. As you go down the pyramid, grades are set for a variety of reasons -- 9s almost all look the same, but 3s, 2s and 1s have a huge number of potential flaws, including paper loss on reverse, creasing, corner wear, etc. What makes a card a PSA 2 could be a variety of factors that tell you nothing about the eye appeal of the card without looking at it.

Professional grading is not designed to reflect eye appeal. It is designed to point out flaws, often hard to see or hidden, in a piece of card board. When you see a clean-looking SGC 30, you actually know there are a lot of hard to see flaws. When you see a badgered up SGC 30, what you see is what you get. But not all SGC 30s will look alike -- in fact, at that level of the "pyramid" you will have a lot of different looking cards.

This becomes problematic when sellers try to sell a PSA 2 for what a previous PSA 2 sold for. Without comparing both cards, going by the number alone gets you nowhere because what you don't know about the previous card is whether the damage was similar or whether the eye-appeal was comparable. Sometimes you can get a pretty good deal on a nice looking 2 when a seller is willing to use a previous ugly 2 as a comparable. This is why they say, "Buy the card, not the holder." Which is exactly what our buyer did this time -- kudos to an intelligent market decision!

[1952boyntoncollector]

I disagree. The problem with the single number is people paying the same for all PSA 3 Cobbs, which here our buyer obviously did not do. The purpose of TPG, particularly in the internet age -- and with Heritage's super-bright scans, which the buyer here acknowledged above -- is to show the hidden flaws. That card would've been sold as EX-MT 25-30 years ago. Not today.

As I've said before here, grading is a pyramid. At the top, you have the 10s. 10 means perfection and thus all 10s will be identical. As you go down the pyramid, grades are set for a variety of reasons -- 9s almost all look the same, but 3s, 2s and 1s have a huge number of potential flaws, including paper loss on reverse, creasing, corner wear, etc. What makes a card a PSA 2 could be a variety of factors that tell you nothing about the eye appeal of the card without looking at it.

Professional grading is not designed to reflect eye appeal. It is designed to point out flaws, often hard to see or hidden, in a piece of card board. When you see a clean-looking SGC 30, you actually know there are a lot of hard to see flaws. When you see a badgered up SGC 30, what you see is what you get. But not all SGC 30s will look alike -- in fact, at that level of the "pyramid" you will have a lot of different looking cards.

This becomes problematic when sellers try to sell a PSA 2 for what a previous PSA 2 sold for. Without comparing both cards, going by the number alone gets you nowhere because what you don't know about the previous card is whether the damage was similar or whether the eye-appeal was comparable. Sometimes you can get a pretty good deal on a nice looking 2 when a seller is willing to use a previous ugly 2 as a comparable. This is why they say, "Buy the card, not the holder." Which is exactly what our buyer did this time -- kudos to an intelligent market decision!



right when you get down to cards with flaws.....i call it the 'authentic' principle...

not all authentics are alike..some can go for 2x and 3x mroe than the next..same with PSA 1s......and now people are starting to see it on the less flawed but still flawed cards in the psa 2-3 range....... huge spectrums on that range that can overlap the next or even next 2 grade ranges..... plus centered cards almost have their own range and not limited to the VCP range....needs to be a 'centered VCP" site..

[rats60]

I disagree. The problem with the single number is people paying the same for all PSA 3 Cobbs, which here our buyer obviously did not do. The purpose of TPG, particularly in the internet age -- and with Heritage's super-bright scans, which the buyer here acknowledged above -- is to show the hidden flaws. That card would've been sold as EX-MT 25-30 years ago. Not today.

As I've said before here, grading is a pyramid. At the top, you have the 10s. 10 means perfection and thus all 10s will be identical. As you go down the pyramid, grades are set for a variety of reasons -- 9s almost all look the same, but 3s, 2s and 1s have a huge number of potential flaws, including paper loss on reverse, creasing, corner wear, etc. What makes a card a PSA 2 could be a variety of factors that tell you nothing about the eye appeal of the card without looking at it.

Professional grading is not designed to reflect eye appeal. It is designed to point out flaws, often hard to see or hidden, in a piece of card board. When you see a clean-looking SGC 30, you actually know there are a lot of hard to see flaws. When you see a badgered up SGC 30, what you see is what you get. But not all SGC 30s will look alike -- in fact, at that level of the "pyramid" you will have a lot of different looking cards.

This becomes problematic when sellers try to sell a PSA 2 for what a previous PSA 2 sold for. Without comparing both cards, going by the number alone gets you nowhere because what you don't know about the previous card is whether the damage was similar or whether the eye-appeal was comparable. Sometimes you can get a pretty good deal on a nice looking 2 when a seller is willing to use a previous ugly 2 as a comparable. This is why they say, "Buy the card, not the holder." Which is exactly what our buyer did this time -- kudos to an intelligent market decision!

But isn't eye appeal a big part of being exceptional for the grade and worthy of the half point bump? At a minimum, this card should have been a 3.5. It is better than any 3 Green Cobb that I have seen. It is better than the last 2 4s that sold and why it sold for more than those cards. I think the buyer has a 4.5 in a 3 holder and someone with pull will get it in a 4.5 holder one day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would think Heritage has pull, and would have tried to upgrade it if it had a shot.

[orly57]

" grading is not designed to reflect eye appeal. It is designed to point out flaws, often hard to see or hidden, in a piece of card board."

That is a very fair point. My modest proposal was not meant to imply that card with a hidden crease that looks gorgeous should rocket to a 7 due to eye appeal. I only suggest that grading companies shouldn't robotically treat all flaws the same. A more prominent crease is a more eggregious flaw than a hidden crease. Paper loss on an innocuous part of the card (i.e. On the back corners) is less eggregious than paper loss on the front where the image is affected. This isn't subjective. On a technical level as well as on visual appeal, this is the case. If a crease is more prominent than another crease, it is obviously a greater flaw and should be treated as such. Is it really that crazy to propose that some flaws are worse than others? The idea that "a crease is a crease is a crease" seems to me to lack any sort of nuance or common sense, and it leads to painfully disparate results in the lower grades. And this is just comparing a crease to a crease. What about when 1 hidden flaw = 4 rounded corners? We see that all the time. The tpg has hit a hidden flaw so hard that it puts it in the same grade scale as other far more eggregious and obvious flaws. I just think that the SEVERITY of the flaw needs to be weighed, and not just robotically give the same weight to all flaws equally. It will never happen, but that is all I am saying. Compare the cards below. Never mind eye appeal. Can you seriously tell me theses cards are technically equal?

[darwinbulldog]

I think that's rather the point. PSA's explanation of their half-grades seems to defy what happened here.

[calvindog]

Any chance of the not so popular Sweet Caporal Domino Disc PX7 to have a chance like the cards and post cards so see an increase

No chance. Maybe a tiny increase but nothing crazy like the T206s and the PCs.

[botn]

Hi Greg,
Thanks for your comments and I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here, but my feeling is grading is subjective and that there really aren't that many objective standards in the grading process. That's why I hate the numeric grades cards receive because it's pretending that there really is an objective and precise standard. That's why the same card can be resubmitted several times and get a different grade each time.

I think eye appeal is very important and should be part of the grading process. If a card is ugly for the grade, good chance it's overgraded. If it's "the best 3 I've ever seen", maybe it is in fact better than a 3. I'm just not a big fan of third party grading in its current form, and think it could be done a whole lot better. Not saying I have the answer to how it should be done, I'm just not a fan.

Hi Barry,

I am not sure why the op decided to start an argument with me. I was not giving my opinion on whether the grading standards were right or wrong. Only trying to suggest that most times a card has a technical flaw that renders a grade much lower than the card would appear and upon examination in hand based on current grading standards, the grade would be justifiable.

Eye appeal should play apart in a grade but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the grading process is supposed to be an objective process following certain guidelines but at the end of the day we have people making these calls. The market has always been sophisticated and compensates where the grading process has "failed". A nice 4 might sell for more than an average 6. I see it all the time and support that market as both a buyer and a seller.

Greg

[T206Collector]

Can you seriously tell me theses cards are technically equal?

The question proves my point. I don't need PSA to tell me that the middle one has better eye appeal. I need PSA to tell me that the scan doesn't tell the whole story: the middle one has a crease or paper loss on reverse -- which I am certain it does -- and which will always keep it below a 4.

[aaroncc]

Copied from PSA website.



The Importance of Eye Appeal and Subjectivity in Grading


Over the years, more and more collectors have come to understand the basic guidelines behind PSA grading. After grading for well over a decade, PSA grading standards have truly become the official standard for the most valuable cards in the hobby. That being said, there are a host of grading questions that arise and the one basic question that comes up the most has to do with eye appeal and centering.

While it's true that a large part of grading is objective (locating print defects, staining, surface wrinkles, measuring centering, etc.), the other component of grading is somewhat subjective. The best way to define the subjective element is to do so by posing a question: What will the market accept for this particular issue?

Again, the vast majority of grading is applied with a basic, objective standard but no one can ignore the small (yet sometimes significant) subjective element. This issue will usually arise when centering and/or eye appeal are in question. For example, while most cards fall clearly within the centering guidelines for a particular grade, some cards fall either just within or just outside the printed centering standards. The key point to remember is that the graders reserve the right, based on the strength or weakness of the eye appeal, to make a judgment call on the grade of a particular card.

What does this mean exactly?

Well, take this example. Let's say you have a 1955 Topps Sandy Koufax rookie card that is right on the edge of the acceptable guidelines for centering in a particular grade. The 1955 Koufax card has a yellow background that tends to blend with the border of the card. In other words, the contrast isn't great, so poor centering may not be much of an eyesore – the borders are not clearly defined. In this case, if the card exhibits extremely strong characteristics in other areas (color, corners, etc.), an exception may be made to allow an otherwise slightly off-center card to fall within an unqualified grade (no OC qualifier). This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.

On the other hand, there are cards that technically fall within the printed PSA Grading Standards that may be prevented from reaching a particular unqualified grade because the eye appeal becomes an issue. For example, a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax card has great contrast between the white borders and the picture because the background is very dark. It is possible that a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax, one that technically measures for a particular grade – let's say 70/30, may be prevented from reaching that unqualified grade because the market would view that card as off-center – based on eye appeal issues. Again, this is a rare occurrence but it does happen from time to time when a judgment call has to be made on a card that pushes the limits for centering.

In conclusion, the issues discussed do not apply to the vast majority of cards that filter through the PSA grading process each day but this is an issue that needed some clarification in the marketplace. The bottom line is that there are times when a PSA grader must make a call on a card that falls on the line between two grades and that final determination is made based on experience, eye appeal and market acceptability.

[BeanTown]

Jeff, here are the final prices on the two cards. I disagree with you on the HA website. Once you get the hang of it, you will see navigating is pretty easy on it. Now, if you want to see a hard website to navigate through, then go to www.huntauctions.com and enjoy.

[BeanTown]

right when you get down to cards with flaws.....i call it the 'authentic' principle...

not all authentics are alike..some can go for 2x and 3x mroe than the next..same with PSA 1s......and now people are starting to see it on the less flawed but still flawed cards in the psa 2-3 range....... huge spectrums on that range that can overlap the next or even next 2 grade ranges..... plus centered cards almost have their own range and not limited to the VCP range....needs to be a 'centered VCP" site..

Jake, you are correct that not all authentics are alike. Eye appeal has a tremendous affect on buyers. Final hammer price was 33k on REA.

[BeanTown]

Any chance of the not so popular Sweet Caporal Domino Disc PX7 to have a chance like the cards and post cards so see an increase

Pins, buttons, and Disc are all nitche items which will slowly gain popularity. Very undervalued over the years and as collectors are looking for items they don't have of a key player (like Cobb), they will start collecting these kind of items which will make them more mainstream. We saw this happen with the postcard market over the last 15 years.

There is a great book by Muchinsky "Baseball Pinback Buttons". The book doesn't show everything out there, but it's a great reference guide to educate collectors who want to start collecting these kind of collectibles.

[barrysloate]

Part of the problem with grading is that some cards are undergraded and some are overgraded. Not all grading is accurate.

If someone with better skills than me could post images of the two 1951 Bowman Mantles just sold in Heritage, it would be useful.

The one graded by PSA was poorly centered and out of register. Given those two crucial flaws, it never should have been graded higher than VG 3.

And the SGC example was as nice a VG-Ex as you could possibly hope for, with near perfect centering, very strong corners, and deep rich colors. It had two tiny gum stains on the reverse. At minimum, it was a very strong VG-Ex and should have easily qualified for the 4.5 grade.

So the latter was easily a grade and a half better than the former, which the market perfectly recognized. Had each been accurately graded, the cards wouldn't even be worth discussing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can live with grading disparities. What is far more troubling is the number of doctored cards in holders. FAR more troubling.

[barrysloate]

I agree Peter, but why have grading disparities? If you understand how to grade a card, it shouldn't be hard to be more consistent and accurate. It's doable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree Peter, but why have grading disparities? If you understand how to grade a card, it shouldn't be hard to be more consistent and accurate. It's doable.

Different people doing the grading is part of the reason. If it were all one guy there might be less variation. And there may be some politics.

[orly57]

Different people doing the grading is part of the reason. If it were all one guy there might be less variation. And there may be some politics.

Card A: should be a 6, but gets a 7 due to politics or incompetence.
Card B: was a 6, but dick Towle removed a wax stain. Gets a legit 7.

Both sell for the same price.
Which is worse again?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't care about wax stains. Not what I am talking about.

[rgpete]

Pins, buttons, and Disc are all nitche items which will slowly gain popularity. Very undervalued over the years and as collectors are looking for items they don't have of a key player (like Cobb), they will start collecting these kind of items which will make them more mainstream. We saw this happen with the postcard market over the last 15 years.

There is a great book by Muchinsky "Baseball Pinback Buttons". The book doesn't show everything out there, but it's a great reference guide to educate collectors who want to start collecting these kind of collectibles.

Thanks for the info , I will look in to it more

[barrysloate]

Different people doing the grading is part of the reason. If it were all one guy there might be less variation. And there may be some politics.

There shouldn't be any politics with card grading. You assess a card, give it the most accurate grade you can, and then move on to the next one. If any special favors are going on, then the system doesn't work (and since I believe funny stuff happens, that's why I think third party grading needs an overhaul).

[Peter_Spaeth]

There shouldn't be any politics with card grading. You assess a card, give it the most accurate grade you can, and then move on to the next one. If any special favors are going on, then the system doesn't work (and since I believe funny stuff happens, that's why I think third party grading needs an overhaul).

Any small business heavily dependent on a relatively small group of customers and where people know each other is, to some extent, going to be subject to influence. Just the way of the world.

[BeanTown]

Graders are just giving a "unbiased" opinion. It's subjective and there is literally no accountibility. So, if they give a bad grade who cares. If an attourney does something wrong or unethical then they are held accountable from the Bar of their State.

[Yoda]

I was under the impression, perhaps misguided, that the half point grade designation was implemented to distinguish a card which has terrific eye appeal but a flaw from one that has a more obvious imperfection. My understanding with TPG grading is that a wrinkle, crease or small spot of paper loss, no matter how unobtrusive, will bring down the card's grade to a vg unless it is deserving of a half point bump, like beautiful green Cobb; it should be a vg+ for sure.