The T206 Ames riddle....offering a $500 bounty (each) for his AB 460 or UZIT cards

[tedzan]

Several sources on this board continue the myth that the Ames (hands over head) card is "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) or the UZIT backs.

This is an IMPOSSIBLE front/back combo !

I am so certain that the above front/back combos do NOT exist, that I'm willing to offer a $500 reward to anyone here who can produce either one of these T206's.

This Ames is a 350/460 series subject. It's been confirmed with the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 back. My research indicates that American Lithographic
printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 backs and the Red HINDU backs simultaneously......"matched pairs".

Ames has yet to be confirmed with the Red HINDU back. But, it's just a matter of time that this front/back combo will be discovered.

Thus, due to the mutually-exclusive nature of the Red HINDU vs AB 460 cards in the 350/460 series.....the so-called "Ames/AB 460" card is an impossible combo.
Furthermore, the same mutually-exclusive factor applies to Red HINDU vs UZIT cards in the 350/460 series; therefore, the so-called "Ames/UZIT" card is also an
impossible combo.




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AmesSweetCap460factory42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FordSweetCap460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GeyerRedHINDUx50b.jpg



Here is my confirmed red HINDU checklist with respect to series......43 subjects total

350/460 series............ 31 subjects

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 4 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with this back.

Ames (hands over head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)



460-only series............ 12 subjects (complete)

Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



TED Z
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/71/71bf4186f2fd86fe7990f814bb956dd6d77d68ee46e6de9d98 1f02268d87422f.jpg

:)

[Gradedcardman]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/71/71bf4186f2fd86fe7990f814bb956dd6d77d68ee46e6de9d98 1f02268d87422f.jpg

:)

Now that's funny !!

[T205 GB]

Well what is the reward Ted? I am curious

[tedzan]

Hi Andrew

Great to hear from you. Hope to see you at the National next month.

I posted the reward....$500 each.


TED Z
.

[Jobu]

I love it Ted - putting your money where your mouth is! I have no doubt that you are correct and won't have to pay up.

Thank you for continuing to share so much information with all of us.

[tedzan]

I love it Ted - putting your money where your mouth is! I have no doubt that you are correct and won't have to pay up.

Thank you for continuing to share so much information with all of us.


Bryan

Thanks....I appreciate your comments. After all these years, we are still learning of the complexities of The Monster.
And, I feel that any meaningful insight is always worth sharing with members of this forum.

Conversely, I really do not care for the above response (Jeff Bridges, etc.). Notwithstanding, that it appears as if it
was meant to be a joke. It's really a damn distraction.


TED Z
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It was absolutely meant in jest, the point being your opinion on these matters is pretty much gospel, somethimes things lose meaning over the interwebs.

[tedzan]

Hi Scott

I was disappointed to see the 1st response to this thread in the form of a "joke". It ain't some frivolous opinion, it is an opinion based on some serious research.
Otherwise, I certainly would not be backing it up with some serious $$$$.

Anyway, stay tuned......maybe some one on this forum will surprise us with a red HINDU Ames card which will validate my theory. Or, even better than that......
an Ames with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards and the red HINDU cards in the 350/460 series are "matched pairs".


Whatever....I will keep the ten Ben Franklins warm in my safe, should the "impossible" happen, and an Ames card with either an AB 460 or UZIT back shows up.

Take care, guy


TED Z
.

[PhillipAbbott79]

It was absolutely meant in jest, the point being your opinion on these matters is pretty much gospel, somethimes things lose meaning over the interwebs.

He clearly didn't get it, like the rest of us.

[tedzan]

Well, this is the 4th day since I posted this request and no responses. ? ?

:) The Ben Franklin's are "burning holes" in my pockets :)

It looks like I won't be given them out to anyone here too soon.


I've been collecting AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards since 2005. In these past 12 years, I have seen over 1000
AB 460 cards. Currently, I have 70 - AB 460 cards in my run. The 4 missing cards have been eluding me for
the past 2 years. Any help in completing this run is greatly appreciated.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b37.jpg



AMERICAN BEAUTY 460........74 confirmed subjects (I am 100% confident this list is complete)

350/460 Series.....................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series.....................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)

Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
I am still searching for these 4 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

[tedzan]

Well....7 days have transpired since I posted this request/reward....but, so far there have not been any responses ? ?

Look, the printing pattern of the 350/460 series (63 subjects) has been figured out. Especially with respect to AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, BROAD LEAF 460, red HINDU, and UZIT
backs. The printing rules for these 4 backs are well established; therefore, I do NOT expect that any Ames (hands over head) cards with UZIT backs will ever be discovered.

However, T206resource (and other sources on this forum who cite them) claims that Ames/UZIT has been "confirmed".

So, I say let's see this UZIT card (and for that matter, the Ames/AB 460 card). Where are these cards ? ?

I will be set-up at the Chicago National in July. I welcome anyone having either one of these Ames cards to show me them. If they are legit, I'll gladly give him the $500 reward.


I am reprising my scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive "460-type" backs in this series resulted from American Lithographic
separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects which were printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MurphySweetCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSweetCap460x42.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RedHinduDuffyB.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg

Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A (35 subjects)
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group B (28 subjects)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects which were printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa....Feb-Mar 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg

Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42....red HINDU....BROAD LEAF 460




Finally, regarding the 460-only series, only 29 of the 46 subjects in this series have been confirmed with the UZIT back. In fact, just these past 6 months, 2 new UZIT cards were
discovered. I acquired a UZIT card of McGraw (glove at hip). And, a Frill/UZIT was discovered (currently in Heritage's auction). So, the 460-only series is still a work in progress.

My UZIT checklist will be posted in the following post.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

UZIT cards checklist......2 new finds have been added.....McGraw (glove at hip) and Frill.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg


The T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs
were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs (circa..early 1911).

57 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date.

350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

I am 100% confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed
list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for the 350/460 series).


460-only series..............................29 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Howie Camnitz (arms up)
Harry Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Frill
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard
Tinker (bat on)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....more UZIT cards from this series are expected to be discovered.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

I agree with Ted on many levels of this topic including the 28 known 350/460 being complete since it also matches my Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Prints" list. I guess a scrap could show up and Ted would have to pay up but I don't believe Ames with either back was ever distributed in packs. It's interesting how PSA lists both in their population reports even though both have a pop of zero.

[HobokenJon]

Here's a modest proposal: Someone from T206 Resource should man up and explain the factual basis of its "confirmations" when asked, especially when there's no observable evidence that the cards exist. This is not a new issue. See the previous posts about the Loch Ness Monster subset of forest green Sovereign 350s.

http://www.thatt206life.com/2017/03/05/is-the-george-davis-sovereign-350-a-hoax/

Keep fighting the good fight, Ted.

[tedzan]

I agree with Ted on many levels of this topic including the 28 known 350/460 being complete since it also matches my Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Prints" list. I guess a scrap could show up and Ted would have to pay up but I don't believe Ames with either back was ever distributed in packs. It's interesting how PSA lists both in their population reports even though both have a pop of zero.

Hi Ron

Very well stated.

Also, should a "scrap" AB 460 or UZIT card of this Ames show up, then my reward does not apply.

However, I seriously doubt this would ever occur, since the timeline of the printing of the Group A cards does not coincide with the timeline of the printing of the Group B cards.


TED Z
.

[steve B]

Here's a modest proposal: Someone from T206 Resource should man up and explain the factual basis of its "confirmations" when asked, especially when there's no observable evidence that the cards exist. This is not a new issue. See the previous posts about the Loch Ness Monster subset of forest green Sovereign 350s.

http://www.thatt206life.com/2017/03/05/is-the-george-davis-sovereign-350-a-hoax/

Keep fighting the good fight, Ted.

I had an idea and checked it out.

The superset spreadsheet shows the Davis as confirmed, reported by Dave Seaborn.


Steve B

[tedzan]

I had an idea and checked it out.

The superset spreadsheet shows the Davis as confirmed, reported by Dave Seaborn.


Steve B


Steve

Back in 2006, the super-set spreadsheet also had Ames (hands above head) confirmed with American Beauty 460. I contacted the guy who posted it,
and he has recently stated that this f/b combo was a mistake by him.

Therefore, not all (but most data on the super-set spread sheet) are correct.



TED Z
.

[Gradedcardman]

Bumping for Ted as I will be posting something similar about PD 42's

[steve B]

Steve

Back in 2006, the super-set spreadsheet also had Ames (hands above head) confirmed with American Beauty 460. I contacted the guy who posted it,
and he has recently stated that this f/b combo was a mistake by him.

Therefore, not all (but most data on the super-set spread sheet) are correct.



TED Z
.

I'd expect a few errors with something like that. I was just hoping to move things along, had a quick idea looked it up and passed on the info as-is. I suspect that listing is also in error, but it might be worth checking into if it's possible.
The super-set spreadsheet may also be the source of the info on T206 resource.

I can't think of many lists or references that aren't built on others. And as usual, errors made on one end up being passed forward when it's used as a source. My other hobby has a handful of items in my small niche that were described in the 1930's, catalog listed, but which aren't known at all today and are still listed in the catalog. One of that hobbys classic references is from 1902 and was put together with access to official records and still lists items that by the official records can't exist (And actually don't)

Steve B

[tedzan]

Bumping for Ted as I will be posting something similar about PD 42's


Hi Adam

I have modified my PIEDMONT #42 tally to reflect a total of 72 subjects (63 subjects in the 350/460 series + 9 subjects in the 460-only series).

I think these numbers agree with your #s.

I'm looking forward to seeing your thread.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

OK guys......one more try on this one.

It's been 5 weeks since I posted this $500 bounty, and no one has come forward to claim it with either an Ames/AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 card,
or an Ames/UZIT card.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesSweetCap460factory42.jpg


I will be set-up (at a booth near the entrance) at the National next week. I will have with me these crisp $100 dollar bills. Just in case some one
brings me either one of these Ames cards....thereby, disproving my theory.

One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. It will be quite interesting to see what develops.

Stay tuned.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/5x100sSeries1990.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/5x100sSeries2009.jpg



TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued.



didn't know this. thanks ted!

[Enfuego]

OK guys......one more try on this one.



It's been 5 weeks since I posted this $500 bounty, and no one has come forward to claim it with either an Ames/AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 card,

or an Ames/UZIT card.







http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesSweetCap460factory42.jpg





I will be set-up (at a booth near the entrance) at the National next week. I will have with me these crisp $100 dollar bills. Just in case some one

brings me either one of these Ames cards....thereby, disproving my theory.



One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. It will be quite interesting to see what develops.



Stay tuned.





http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/5x100sSeries1990.jpg







http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/5x100sSeries2009.jpg







TED Z

.



I will go through what I have and post it tomorrow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tedzan]

Hi Anthony R.

If you do find either of one these two cards, do not delay in posting it here.

As, I will be leaving for the National this weekend.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

As that famous Jazz artist, Count Basie, would say before an encore...... " One more once "


I will be set-up (at a booth near the entrance) at the National next week. I will have with me these crisp $100 dollar bills.
Just in case some one brings me either one of these Ames cards....thereby, disproving my theory (see Post #1).



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/5x100sSeries1990x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesSweetCap460factory42.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/5x100sSeries2009x.jpg

. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesSweetCap460factory42.jpg



Looking forward to seeing some of you next week at the National.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Well folks....my theory still proves true. No one showed up at the National having Ames with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back or UZIT back.

So, before I left the show Saturday afternoon, I spent my 10 crisp $100 bills on another card for my Pennsylvanian BB player collection.
Buck Weaver was born in Pottstown, PA.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BuckWeaverObak1911.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BuckWeaverObak1911b.jpg



I acquired this OBAK from my good buddies....Chris and Kristin Buckler.


TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

case closed, ted. Great research. Keep up the good work.

[atx840]

Any luck on the UZIT either Ted :D

[tedzan]

Hey Chris

Here we are....3 1/2 years since I made this offer at the Chicago National....absolutely no one has approached me with the "goodies" to receive the $500 reward.

Furthermore, I'm willing to bet anyone that a BROAD LEAF 460 and/or red HINDU Ames will materialize eventually.


Thanks ole buddy for the reminiscing,


TED Z

T206 Reference ( http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.