What the hell is the deal with this PWCC auction

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at the bidding history. And in particular retractions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142398384790?_trksid=p2471758.m4703

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142398384790?item=142398384790&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

[Peter_Spaeth]

High bidder has 14 retractions. Ahem.

[bnorth]

Peter I have no idea what you are referring to, looks like a normal PWCC auction to me.;)

Also are you forgetting they have super fast shipping.

[botn]

Look at the bidding history. And in particular retractions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142398384790?_trksid=p2471758.m4703

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142398384790?item=142398384790&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Just another day at the office in Oregon. But I am sure if you had taken the time to tell Brent rather than embarrassing him here I am sure he would get on it immediately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just another day at the office in Oregon. But I am sure if you had taken the time to tell Brent rather than embarrassing him here I am sure he would get on it immediately.

I guess it got past that full time checker. As did all those folks with more than 10 retractions bidding on Jordans from a post a short while back.

[frankbmd]

All retractions however crazy are 100% legit and rational.

[oldjudge]

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

They aren't paying for the card, they are paying for the flip, Jay.

[botn]

I guess it got past that full time checker. As did all those folks with more than 10 retractions bidding on Jordans from a post a short while back.

Well it is a good thing the full time checker only missed this Roby and a Jordan auction. I am sure that person got all the others who are manipulating his auctions.

Keep doing what you are doing Brent. I think the hobby supports you.

[PhillipAbbott79]

It looks like 1..3 had a high bid in, then 4..A bid and found out the number was high but got outbid.

Then again to match, they retracted the bid that was bid up. Then 4..A attempted again at 50k and the bid up price was again redacted.

Yea. How does a retraction go under the radar 2 to 4 times, let alone being over the 'limit' on retractions.

[bnorth]

Yea. How does a retraction go under the radar 2 to 4 times, let alone being over the 'limit' on retractions.

I would guess they go under the radar because they are the ones "supporting" Brent.

[spaidly]

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

OMG. So much this ^^^^^^^^^^^

[orly57]

They aren't paying for the card, they are paying for the flip, Jay.

Peter, you are on fire today. 👏👏👏

[iowadoc77]

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.



For my #1 PSA registry set, of course. :eek:

[mechanicalman]

What's the over/under that this card will be featured in a PSA ad in their SMR magazine where it shows the ungraded value at $4 and a graded value at $34,582.

[Beastmode]

A new level or retractivism. Retracting within a bid while have over 10 retractions in the last 10 months. And still high bidder........

[Fred]

I wish I had unlimited resources. I'd buy the damn thing, crack it out in front of a video camera with a bunch of "reputable" witnesses that know nothing about card collecting. I would then submit the card to PSA for grading. Since it's me, I'm going to guess I can guarantee a 9 grade and maybe a 9.5 grade. Then I'd put it back to auction and see what it gets. Then I'd publish exactly what occurred and show everyone just how stupid this hobby has become. :p:eek:

[Jay Wolt]

I would then submit the card to PSA for grading. Since it's me, I'm going to guess I can guarantee a 9 grade and maybe a 9.5 grade. :p:eek:
PSA doesn't have a 9.5 grade

[Brent Huigens]

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

[BeanTown]

Did all their bids get cancelled out when they got banned, including other listings? Just curious if there are any other textbook cases on a PWCC listing that wasn't caught by a Net54 member.

It might be nice to post the banned eBay user IDs along with the date on a new Net54 thread. Then just add to the list every time a user gets banned. It would not only show PWCC making an attempt to prohibit it, but also alert other sellers to keep an eye out on certain eBay names.

[T206Collector]

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

The current high bidder has 14 retractions if I am reading it correctly. What happened to the 10 max policy? Or is there an exception for regular bidders who spend a lot of money?

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 87
Items bid on: 40
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 39% Help
Bid retractions: 4
Bid retractions (6 months): 14

[1952boyntoncollector]

At least ebay allows you to see these things...imagine what goes on in the other houses where you have no idea about who 'outbid' you.

With pwcc's new rules in place, if you 'win' the item im sure they will let you back out of it if someone retracted a bid making you the high bidder..or if your bid is higher than any bid that was placed by a later bid retracter.

In addition, even if there arent any bid retractions in a specific auction but the bidding involves bidders with 10 retractions for example in the last 6 months,i would imagine pwcc will also let you out of your 'winning' bid.

until pwcc enforces someone to actually buy the item in an auction involving a bid retractor person..its sort of a non issue

[JustinD]

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

+1 billion

edited to add: The one thing I miss from hiding the bidder ID's of winners is the expletive laced diatribes people would send you through eBay messages if you sniped them in the early days. Granted sniping was risky business in the dial-up days because of slooooooow connections, but those messages were hilarious.

[Republicaninmass]

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Did all their bids get cancelled out when they got banned, including other listings? Just curious if there are any other textbook cases on a PWCC listing that wasn't caught by a Net54 member.

It might be nice to post the banned eBay user IDs along with the date on a new Net54 thread. Then just add to the list every time a user gets banned. It would not only show PWCC making an attempt to prohibit it, but also alert other sellers to keep an eye out on certain eBay names.

I believe some auction catalogs have listed the actual names of some people that didnt buy the items they won and they were put on a 'shame list'

[frankbmd]

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

Shill death do us part.:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636511321027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

and 11 here on the same card

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636441138027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

Card bid up to 32K within 12 hours of listing. Uh, ok.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least ebay allows you to see these things...imagine what goes on in the other houses where you have no idea about who 'outbid' you.

With pwcc's new rules in place, if you 'win' the item im sure they will let you back out of it if someone retracted a bid making you the high bidder..or if your bid is higher than any bid that was placed by a later bid retracter.

In addition, even if there arent any bid retractions in a specific auction but the bidding involves bidders with 10 retractions for example in the last 6 months,i would imagine pwcc will also let you out of your 'winning' bid.

until pwcc enforces someone to actually buy the item in an auction involving a bid retractor person..its sort of a non issue

What rules? The current high bidder on the Robinson has 14 retractions in 6 months and Brent (Betsy) is explaining that they are legit because they have spent a lot of money with PWCC.

[scooter729]

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636511321027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

and 11 here on the same card

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636441138027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

Card bid up to 32K within 12 hours of listing. Uh, ok.

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

[bobbyw8469]

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

LOL......touche...I barely get off the .99 cent opener until the last hour of bids.

[shagrotn77]

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

No.

[bnorth]

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

Yes these is a reason for it. It is slimy also but not as bad as shilling. The items with more bids/looks get placed higher on the eBay list of items that are shown when you don't do a specific search like ending soonest or most recently listed.

You can see this with most large eBay consigners/sellers and it is always the same IDs doing it. They usually have a high # of bids per month and insanely low feedback for the # of bids placed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

What rules? The current high bidder on the Robinson has 14 retractions in 6 months and Brent (Betsy) is explaining that they are legit because they have spent a lot of money with PWCC.

right if they spent 40k that wouldnt of been enough but 60k is enough

Still, if you or I ended up winning that auction and we then asked to be let go of the obligation with no recourse and they allowed it, its still a non issue to me....at least there is transparency sort of in ebay auction....with ZERO in other auctions..

If people started backing out (beep beep) of their 'wins' due to bid retractions, i do believe pwcc would police it more...

[Peter_Spaeth]

right if they spent 40k that wouldnt of been enough but 60k is enough

Still, if you or I ended up winning that auction and we then asked to be let go of the obligation with no recourse and they allowed it, its still a non issue to me....at least there is transparency sort of in ebay auction....with ZERO in other auctions..

If people started backing out (beep beep) of their 'wins' due to bid retractions, i do believe pwcc would police it more...

I don't know how much is enough, but if you are going to make a big deal about your supposed 10 retraction policy, then enforce it and don't make exceptions for people who spend a lot of money with you, as that completely undercuts your credibility.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I don't know how much is enough, but if you are going to make a big deal about your supposed 10 retraction policy, then enforce it and don't make exceptions for people who spend a lot of money with you, as that completely undercuts your credibility.

understood, bur if 'winners' start refusing to pay for their cards due to issues we discussed...it will resolve itself...

Another issue..is when if you have 10 bid retractions because you only retract in an auction when someone else retracts that was the high bidder.... People have stated here that they do that . It easily possible to have 50 bid retractions in a year if you are bidding on these HOF 1960s PSA 10 cards or 60s mantle PSA 8.5s of the world. A huge difference in what a winning price can be on those cards...and ripe for shill retractions (and countermeasure retractions from legit bidders)....same with 1980s PSA 10s etc

[slidekellyslide]

+1 billion

edited to add: The one thing I miss from hiding the bidder ID's of winners is the expletive laced diatribes people would send you through eBay messages if you sniped them in the early days. Granted sniping was risky business in the dial-up days because of slooooooow connections, but those messages were hilarious.

I had forgotten about stuff like that. I only recall it happening to me once where the underbidder contacted me. They called me a "Cheater." :D

[tschock]

I had forgotten about stuff like that. I only recall it happening to me once where the underbidder contacted me. They called me a "Cheater." :D

Sorry, Dan. I mistyped. I meant "Cheetah", you quick little animal you. At least that's how we say it on Long-g Island. :D

[slidekellyslide]

This is why PWCC made a huge mistake in putting a defined number on bid retractions. They are being pressured here to ban a bidder who has spent thousands of dollars with them so far this year. They do it and they lose out on a lot of money, they don't do it and they look like hypocrites.


PWCC has sway with ebay, they should be lobbying them to allow sellers to automatically block bidders with bid retractions. I guarantee serial rectractors would cease to exist.

[Brent Huigens]

It is true that one of the bidders in this listing exceeds our threshold of bid retractions. We have been in close contact with him/her due to the concerning retractions on this listing. In this case we have a somewhat naïve bidder
using bid retractions inconsiderately but not maliciously. He/she has won and paid for almost $60k in the last three months with PWCC which demonstrates his/her follow through with his/her purchases.

We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked.

Yesterday we held a conference call with the eBay Trust & Safety team to show this as a case study of the fundamental brokenness of the the bid retraction tool and how it can enable otherwise good members of the community to act in a way that is disruptive.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

[Stampsfan]

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

OK, that's funny....

[Peter_Spaeth]

"There are a few exceptions, a few provisos and a couple of quid pro quos”- Genie (aka Robin Williams in Disney’s Aladdin).

See footnote 1 to the policy for non-malicious retractions.

EDITED TO ADD: pitiful, IMO.

[ruth-gehrig]

It seems as PWCC will have a response defending their position regardless

[ALR-bishop]

Inconsiderate but not malicious. I wonder how many different types of retractions there are in total.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It seems as PWCC will have a response defending their position regardless

That's what they do. Spin and excuse.

[botn]

Just a wild guess but I think Trust and Safety is just as "frustrated" by the bid retraction/auction manipulation as Brent is.

[calvindog]

Psssst. Fraud goes on regularly in PWCC auctions.

[PhillipAbbott79]

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

All you had to do was block anyone over 5, and this would have never happened. This response is a waste of your breath. Let me guess, that was your last post on the topic, right?

[bigfish]

PWCC continues to justify their stance and then plays the victim. You guys are a hoot.



Toby Peterson

[Peter_Spaeth]

We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked.



You meant "inherent" damage not "inheritant" damage but for PWCC to be explaining the harm of bid retractions to someone, in light of its track record of a slow and reluctant and excuse-laden response to the issue and even now blatantly admitting to making exceptions to its own supposed policy for people who spend a lot of money, is IMO unbelievably hypocritical. It seems you folks will say anything.

[CrackaJackKid]

They can't block the highest bidder, he's probably the only authentic bidder in the whole auction. 😊 Brent and Betsy need to go find a real job. And yes, I am the type of person that will say this to your face. Can't wait for Nationals

[calvindog]

You meant "inherent" damage not "inheritant" damage but for PWCC to be explaining the harm of bid retractions to someone, in light of its track record of a slow and reluctant and excuse-laden response to the issue and even now blatantly admitting to making exceptions to its own supposed policy for people who spend a lot of money, is IMO unbelievably hypocritical. It seems you folks will say anything.

Fraud occurs daily in their auctions and they've been caught in multiple lies on this board -- and have admitted to past fraud in their auctions. I think it's fair to conclude that Brent and Betsy are part of the problem and not part of the solution to eBay fraud.

[bnorth]

Fraud occurs daily in their auctions and they've been caught in multiple lies on this board -- and have admitted to past fraud in their auctions. I think it's fair to conclude that Brent and Betsy are part of the problem and not part of the solution to eBay fraud.

It is also my opinion they are part of the problem.

PWCC continues to justify their stance and then plays the victim. You guys are a hoot.

The real hoot is reading the responses of the people that support them.:eek:

[Exhibitman]

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

[clydepepper]

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions



Congratulations! Y'all are almost taking a stand...kind of sort of...

'Drawing a line in the sand doesn't do much good when a lot of hot air is blowing.'

[irv]

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[ullmandds]

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

bahahahaha

[jfkheat]

.

[Dpeck100]

There is nothing wrong with wanting a clean market place but the constant PWCC bashing doesn't seem to be doing them any harm. They have 6,708 current listings as I type this.

The fact that there is a seller that has been able to bring marque cards on a consistent basis to EBAY buyers is just awesome.

Who else has auctioned off cards that have gone for 500k? No one.

I personally have won some great cards in their auctions and I knew if they were coming to market they were most likely being auctioned off through PWCC.

Their shipping is stellar and while I read comments from many that shipping with nice packaging doesn't matter; I couldn't disagree more. Every package comes extremely well packaged and if you compare it to Probstein's it isn't even close. So much better.

The leader is always going to have haters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.

[Exhibitman]

The leader is always going to have hatters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.

I am not a 'hatter', David; no malice when I say that I am disgusted by the PWCC business model. It is not asking the impossible to simply ban bid retractors from the auctions. Easily done, but not done, because it financially benefits the owners.

This isn't helping the market any more than any other manipulation helps any other market. They are providing a known vehicle for fraudulent activities. In the long term it is harmful to the collecting community and wrong. It isn't helping the market any more than Mastro's shilling helped the market. When the music stops a lot of people are going to end up burnt and they will leave collecting for something else.

I and many other collectors I know won't bid with them as we would with other sellers because of how they allow consignors to act. Perhaps that will be the ultimate mechanism to force PWCC to take action.

[Dpeck100]

I am not a 'hatter', David; no malice when I say that I am disgusted by the PWCC business model. It is not asking the impossible to simply ban bid retractors from the auctions. Easily done, but not done, because it financially benefits the owners.

This isn't helping the market any more than any other manipulation helps any other market. They are providing a known vehicle for fraudulent activities. In the long term it is harmful to the collecting community and wrong. It isn't helping the market any more than Mastro's shilling helped the market. When the music stops a lot of people are going to end up burnt and they will leave collecting for something else.

I and many other collectors I know won't bid with them as we would with other sellers because of how they allow consignors to act. Perhaps that will be the ultimate mechanism to force PWCC to take action.


It is EBAY's marketplace. They must be the one's to take the lead to stop the retractions. Pull up dpeck100 on EBAY. None. Ever. And I have had the same person who pulled their bid run the auction back up and I just held my ground. If I bid, I am the one that pulled the trigger and it's that simple.

Liquidity has created additional interest in cards and by auctioning off thousands of cards per month it is doing just that.

I too disagree with bid retractions but it is unrealistic to expect a seller to adopt a policy that has a zero tolerance policy when EBAY couldn't care less.

You need turnover to create recorded sales for people to try and base their value estimates on and they are by far the leader in this on EBAY when it comes to trading cards.

I will take the good they provide over the bad. All day.

[Dpeck100]

I am curious what the estimates were and are on this card.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker-Jack-Honus-Wagner-68-PSA-3-VG-PWCC/142396409793?_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3Dc27ddbf67c314624bb b28e7f2b5f7fa8%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%2 6mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D142396409793


I bet there will be plenty of people when this card goes off that would have had snipes that are much lower then the final price and didn't even go off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.

[Dpeck100]

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.


Peter I get the feeling after your three month effort to sell a card on the boxing and wrestling forum you could benefit from their services. There are plenty of collectors who just pack up their stuff and send it off to consignment sellers and let the chips fall where they may. The audience they attract does help prices in general and that card might actually catch a bid out on the open market.

[Beastmode]

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

+ I can't understand it either. Shillers and bid sniffers love early bidders that leave their bid on the internet cloud for them to simply feast on. Can you imagine the crap that is going down at the AH's. We're only seeing a small fraction on ebay.

[bnorth]

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.

This is why our hobby is filled with so many crooks, no one cares as long as they can get their card, autograph, or piece of memorabilia. The even better part is the card is probably altered, the autograph is not real, and the memorabilia is so fake any rational person is like are you serious you think that ball that looks like my dog played with it is from a game Babe Ruth played in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter I get the feeling after your three month effort to sell a card on the boxing and wrestling forum you could benefit from their services. There are plenty of collectors who just pack up their stuff and send it off to consignment sellers and let the chips fall where they may. The audience they attract does help prices in general and that card might actually catch a bid out on the open market.

David I just thanked you for your "advice" on that BST thread. Much appreciated. :rolleyes:

I don't dispute that they have great stuff and frequently get great prices. And I'll take your word for it on the packaging. But to me that's really beside the point of the thread.

[Beastmode]

There is nothing wrong with wanting a clean market place but the constant PWCC bashing doesn't seem to be doing them any harm. They have 6,708 current listings as I type this.

The fact that there is a seller that has been able to bring marque cards on a consistent basis to EBAY buyers is just awesome.

Who else has auctioned off cards that have gone for 500k? No one.

I personally have won some great cards in their auctions and I knew if they were coming to market they were most likely being auctioned off through PWCC.

Their shipping is stellar and while I read comments from many that shipping with nice packaging doesn't matter; I couldn't disagree more. Every package comes extremely well packaged and if you compare it to Probstein's it isn't even close. So much better.

The leader is always going to have hatters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.


++ Most of the PWCC haters are getting blown by the AH's. They're certainly not perfect, but their the best of the worst. Take all the PWCC bashing energy and get the AH's to show the bidders, allow us to snipe, and end the auctions one time. Short of that, I'll interpret your PWCC bashing as jealousy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is why our hobby is filled with so many crooks, no one cares as long as they can get their card, autograph, or piece of memorabilia. The even better part is the card is probably altered, the autograph is not real, and the memorabilia is so fake any rational person is like are you serious you think that ball that looks like my dog played with it is from a game Babe Ruth played in.

Yep. Crooks thrive because otherwise intelligent people just turn a blind eye. A card doctor to the stars said it best -- I'm giving guys what they want.

[Dpeck100]

David I just thanked you for your "advice" on that BST thread. Much appreciated. :rolleyes:

I don't doubt that they have great stuff and frequently get great prices. But to me that's really beside the point of the thread.


The card in question is a Pop 1 from the 1965 Topps set and just happens to be a Triple Crown Winner with 586 career home runs.

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/baseball/company-sets/1965-topps-basic/752

There are some serious players collecting this set. Think about how much cash it takes to put together a complete mint set. Take a look at the top set and how impressive that GPA is and the total domination since 2007. They obviously don't own the card. No one does.

Who are you or me to even remotely determine what this card should sell for. For all we know the $50,000 high bid that was placed might be within reason for what collectors who want to own this card feel is a market clearing price.

At the end of the day at least the card came to market and more than one person got a shot at it and kudos to PWCC for getting to sell it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.

[Jeffrompa]

There is not enough bidders on eBay to block the bad ones .

[ruth-gehrig]

"Cut small from the factory"? Now why didn't Mastro think of that explanation? :p

http://www.ebay.com/itm/401335770873?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

[Dpeck100]

If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.


I have one EBAY ID. I would imagine you do too. There are plenty who don't. The two bidders might have several other ID's for all we know and will bid under another name anyway.


You guys are expecting perfection and it is never coming.


Get mad at EBAY and write their CEO everyday. Until they change their policy the bid retractions aren't going away. As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.


Until then they will continue to offer the best cards on EBAY month after month.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.

[Dpeck100]

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own "policy."


There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.

[Dpeck100]

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.


If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Their critics arent satisfied because their answers arent satisfactory much of the time. And i am not hiding behind a keyboard i have had much personal communication with brent and he knows my views on things.

[tothrk]

I have a policy of never bidding in a PWCC auction but considering the shipping is only $30 for this card, I might make a run at it. Also, I'd love to know the history of this card.

[drmondobueno]

but only after my next consignment sells

-Drmondobueno, after 4 Guinness, a visit to the local priest, and a load of truth serum

[ruth-gehrig]

Is Betsy the Press Secretary for Brent?

[tiger8mush]

As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?

[toledo_mudhen]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

[bxb]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

Based on the number of PWCC bidders vs the number of critics on this thread, the latter is small (but vocal) potatoes.

[Dpeck100]

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?


I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The haters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Man, those must be some mad hatters...

[Bigshot69]

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

[bnorth]

I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The hatters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.

[bnorth]

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

I think it is more long term. I also think it is a benefit because lies like steroids make your head swell up. Once that happens you will need a new hat.:eek::D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

This is their highest or second highest dollar auction. And they claimed to have a full time hire weeding out fraud. Straw man argument imo.

[Dpeck100]

Man, those must be some mad hatters...


No spelling bee champ here. Haha

[Republicaninmass]

No spelling bee champ here. Haha


Nor any literary geniuses!

Edited..Nor

[Marchillo]

Hope I don't spell anything wrong!

I'm going to compare this situation to the NFL and Ray Rice and it makes sense in my head so hopefully it makes sense when I type it.

In this example PWCC is the NFL - the all powerful, money generating machine, that can't seem to fail no matter what they do. They know they deliver a superior product and people will continue to pay for it.

So in the Ray Rice case the NFL hands down a 2 game suspension. I personally believe the commissioner (Brent) saw the video prior to handing down the suspension but didn't think it would come out. The NFL only changed the penalty when the video came out TMZ Sports (net54baseball) and Rice hasn't played in a game since. Partly due to the NFL full season suspension and then teams not wanting to deal with the PR nightmare.

But on the flip side how many days was Rice sentenced to serve in jail by the justice system (EBay)? None. So the penalty Rice served was put forth by the NFL (PWCC). Does PWCC have more of a responsibility than EBay? Obviously if they have a hand in hiring bidders or shilling bids then that is a problem. But if there are people doing nefarious (i googled the spelling) things and EBay allows it than what is PWCC's responsibility?

I agree with the OP on this thread and its the issue I have with the NFL (Though I am a Patriots season ticket holder 5x Champs don't hate!). It's not that they let some of these wife beaters, bad guys play in the league, its the holier than thou rhetoric they feed to everyone and think we are a bunch of morons.

At the end of the day the NFL isn't going anywhere, although viewership was down last year. But all these little things do cost them over time. I think it is short sighted by PWCC to allow this person to bid despite the $60K he/she has spent over the past few months. If that person didn't win those items than what do those items go for? Lets say $50K? And what is PWCC's take on $10k less? At the end of the day its a drop in the bucket for them at the same time turning other buyers off from bidding on their items. I for one will be very cautious if not avoid their auctions altogether after reading some of the threads on here. These things add up. And that shortsighted commission from this bidder will probably cost them more money at the end of the day. And at this point they have to know they have a bunch of watchdogs keeping track of their auctions.

OK sorry for the NFL analogy!

[Republicaninmass]

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.


Not like there are any savvy people on here, or anywhere else, who are bidding on their auctions. If there was a card of interest, time has proven even with a bad rep, people will still bid, albeit through a snipe.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone else read the title of the thread in Jerry Seinfeld's voice? If you haven't you will now. You're welcome...

[bobbyw8469]

PWCC isn't going anywhere. Do you see how big they have blown up over just the past 5 years. Before, I could actually reach Brent on the phone. Now, I would have better luck getting hold of the president. They have started doing things that are trend setting for an Ebay auction seller. When I say a card is high end for the grade, I might get a few dollars more. Not much. If PWCC says a card is high end, it gets double or triple the going rate. They are getting the bids and the commissions to go along with them. There almost seems to be a need for a few other major players in the consignment shop other than Probstein and PWCC.

[ullmandds]

PWCC isn't going anywhere. Do you see how big they have blown up over just the past 5 years. Before, I could actually reach Brent on the phone. Now, I would have better luck getting hold of the president. They have started doing things that are trend setting for an Ebay auction seller. When I say a card is high end for the grade, I might get a few dollars more. Not much. If PWCC says a card is high end, it gets double or triple the going rate. They are getting the bids and the commissions to go along with them. There almost seems to be a need for a few other major players in the consignment shop other than Probstein and PWCC.

oh yes...this hobby definitely needs more unscrupulous characters...pls send more!

[SAllen2556]

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.


C'mon now. That's naive. Look at it from a business standpoint. What was their motivation to institute, and more importantly, publicly state their stance against bid retractions? Because they determined that in the long run it would help their business, and profits. Fine.

But why go public with the policy at all? If you run your business with integrity you don't need to shout about it. Just do it. People will figure it out on their own. They went public because they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. And at this point, it seems to have backfired.

But remember, PWCC is the one who took to the internet and shouted, "We're the ones you can trust." Well, if you're going to go public about it and use it to market your company, you can't complain when people call you on it, can you?

[bobbyw8469]

oh yes...this hobby definitely needs more unscrupulous characters...pls send more!

I didn't mean it like that. You are taking what I am saying out of context.

[bobbyw8469]

Competition is always a good thing. Maybe it would help curb some of the "unscrupulousness" that you are seeing.

[Marchillo]

Success usually brings about competition. In most cases that competition looks to improve the offering to gain market share or eliminate that competition. Blockbuster Video laughed Netflix out of the room when they proposed their DVD by mail model to them for $50M. So Netflix went on to do better than blockbuster and put them out of business.

Major consigners would be crazy not to study the PWCC model and then try to improve it.

[Dpeck100]

Nor any literary geniuses!

Edited..Nor

Your right. That is why I chose a career path that uses my math skills, economics knowledge and verbal communications skills and it has served me quite well.

[Dpeck100]

C'mon now. That's naive. Look at it from a business standpoint. What was their motivation to institute, and more importantly, publicly state their stance against bid retractions? Because they determined that in the long run it would help their business, and profits. Fine.

But why go public with the policy at all? If you run your business with integrity you don't need to shout about it. Just do it. People will figure it out on their own. They went public because they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. And at this point, it seems to have backfired.

But remember, PWCC is the one who took to the internet and shouted, "We're the ones you can trust." Well, if you're going to go public about it and use it to market your company, you can't complain when people call you on it, can you?


First of all just by looking at the shear volume of listings they have I am not so sure it has hurt their business. It might have been five years or so ago when I first came across their auctions as I liked to see what higher end cards were selling for. They averaged in the low 2,000 listings per auction and it was monthly if I recall.

Fast forward to today and that number has sky rocketed. There are segments of the card market that have clearly come down since their attempt at policing auctions and it is probably for two reasons. One they weeded out some bad actors and two the prices on some of the cards had risen so sharply it brought on a lot of supply. They might have actually benefited from the increase in supply. In 2008 and into 2009 people like me actually made more money at the time from people selling out of their investments and then getting into more conservative ones. The market was collapsing but my commission run was rising.

How much did their policy affect their profits? Obviously you or I have no clue but if their listings increased during that time period and they were able to auction off Pop 1's like this, it is very possible their business hasn't declined at all.

I think when Brent started posting a year and a half or so ago it was a good thing. I thought he did a good job at articulating that they were aware of some problems and it seemed sincere to this naive person. That said the crowd hasn't gotten any quieter and in the past six months since Betsy took over it hasn't helped. Like I said I would just go silent and run their business and let the market dictate their success. I also think they need to be careful with what they say as it could be used against them in court and getting into back and forth responses with people on the Internet about sensitive issues doesn't seem wise.

If you look at that situation with the Dimagio card they are dealing with a loose cannon and there is no winning a pissing contest with a person like that behind a computer screen.

If PWCC is so bad then someone out there should come up with a better model and put them out of business. In the mean time from what I can see their lead and market share just keeps growing so they are doing something right.

[slidekellyslide]

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.

Which is why they made a HUGE mistake in making a defined number of retraction their policy. They've already broken it because the guy has spent $60,000 in three months with them. There really is nothing to be gained by them posting anything here at all. If anything they should have made the statement that we will try our best to determine when fraud is happening in our auctions and take action...in the meantime we will try our best to lobby ebay to change the rules on bid retractions.

If anything my guess is that ebay will hide all bidding information from buyers before they ever get rid of retractions. They make a whole lot of money from the fraud they pretend doesn't exist.

[markf31]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

The excuse of "Probably a bit much to police everyone of them." is a horrible excuse to make for PWCC. That excuse would not fly for any other company, in any other line of business...period.

Imagine someone using an Etrade account as a front for fraudulent manipulation of shares and market prices to gain an advantage, and then Etrade's excuse was "Oh, we're sorry, we're trying REALLY hard to combat fraud on our site but since we have to monitor 175,000 trades daily...you cant expect us to police all of those...do you?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

The excuse of "Probably a bit much to police everyone of them." is a horrible excuse to make for PWCC. That excuse would not fly for any other company, in any other line of business...period.

Imagine someone using an Etrade account as a front for fraudulent manipulation of shares and market prices to gain an advantage, and then Etrade's excuse was "Oh, we're sorry, we're trying REALLY hard to combat fraud on our site but since we have to monitor 175,000 trades daily...you cant expect us to police all of those...do you?"

Not only that, but how freaking hard is it to police say your 100 most expensive auctions (which is where most of the fraud is going to occur) when you (allegedly) have a full time anti-fraud hire in your employ? Virtually every auction that's been outed on this board has been of a high dollar card. It's a stupid trope we see over and over again here from the make excuses crowd. The Brian Moynihan defense.

[iowadoc77]

Great point Mark!
If they are "responsible" for 1 listing then they are responsible for all. If 6,000 listings is too many, then there is a problem. Simple solution- more help to scrutinize each auction or fewer auctions.

[Exhibitman]

I know quite a few collectors who spend really big $$ on cards who won't bid with PWCC at all because of its business practices. They don't post here because they don't care for the trolling experience that all too often results from posting in this forum. Whether their non-participation hurts PWCC's bottom line is impossible to say, but after each round of manipulated pricing from PWCC I hear from more collectors who claim to be bypassing PWCC auctions entirely because of its practices.

As for me, I watch PWCC auctions on items I want but only drop in snipes. Can't recall the last time I won one. I think I got a Probstein win in May.

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1932MINNYMILLERSBUNKER_NEW.JPG

Sorry..usually I try to sneak in a picture of a pre-war baseball player every hundred posts or so but in this particular thread you all are going 'way too fast for an old guy like me ; to make up for my transgression I hereby present the entire complete master set of all Carmen Hill baseball cards. He pitched for the Pirates starting in 1915 at the ripe old age of twenty.

..

[Stampsfan]

Your right. That is why I chose a career path that uses my math skills, economics knowledge and verbal communications skills and it has served me quite well.

First of all just by looking at the shear volume of listings they have....

Wow, am I ignorant. All this time I thought "shear volume" was the amount of wool cut from a sheep.

[ALR-bishop]

Bob--I thought shear involved a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel but are shifted in a direction parallel to themselves. I guess you could try that with sheep too.

[Dpeck100]

Wow, am I ignorant. All this time I thought "shear volume" was the amount of wool cut from a sheep.

Thankfully I have spell check and grammar check on my side for work related stuff.

[Leon]

I think this is where the moderator comes in and says, anyone can say pretty much what they want to (obviously) but as per the rule at the top of every page, your full name needs to be in your post, signature etc.... or you need to have something that quickly leads to your full name (a website address, blog with name etc...)....thanks all. OH, and if you gave an opinion and don't put your name there, or edit your comments, don't be surprised to see your name there. :)

.

[PhillipAbbott79]

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

He hasn't been relevant in a very long time in my opinion. It looks like he got the justice that he needed. My guess is, so will PWCC.

[Dpeck100]

He hasn't been relevant in a very long time in my opinion. It looks like he got the justice that he needed. My guess is, so will PWCC.


Please clarify your post. Not sure exactly what you mean.

[PhillipAbbott79]

He hasn't had any big dollar cards in a long time. Maybe a few, but nothing to the level he had a few years ago. I would say also particularly true in pre war. I don't follow anything other than that.

[Dpeck100]

He hasn't had any big dollar cards in a long time. Maybe a few, but nothing to the level he had a few years ago. I would say also particularly true in pre war. I don't follow anything other than that.

Gotcha. I saw this card earlier they are selling. In general clearly Probstein lost the market share to PWCC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-311-Mickey-Mantle-RC-Rookie-HOF-SGC-84-NM-7-SUPER-HIGH-END-/371970174641?hash=item569b266eb1:g:YrwAAOSwfVpYs2J R

[PhillipAbbott79]

Solid chance that is what happened. PWCC doubled and Probstien lost to him.

I believe we will see an awaking with him too, but it may take some time.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Gotcha. I saw this card earlier they are selling. In general clearly Probstein lost the market share to PWCC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-311-Mickey-Mantle-RC-Rookie-HOF-SGC-84-NM-7-SUPER-HIGH-END-/371970174641?hash=item569b266eb1:g:YrwAAOSwfVpYs2J R

I believe the 52 mantle is destined for a SIZABLE down tick. I don't trust anything in the 50s, for lots of reasons. God bless anyone that has the kind of cash to lay on a card that is likely still in hundreds or thousands of peoples attics untouched for 50 years only a few feet from its original owner in that condition.

There are other things keeping that card down, particularly the grading company.

That type of card is not for me at that type of price tag.

[CrackaJackKid]

[QUOTE=PhillipAbbott79;1668742]I believe the 52 mantle is destined for a SIZABLE down tick. I don't trust anything in the 50s, for lots of reasons. God bless anyone that has the kind of cash to lay on a card that is likely still in hundreds or thousands of peoples attics untouched for 50 years only a few feet from its original owner in that condition.

Exactly!! Just think what the pop reports will be like in 10 years for the Mantle,Koufax,Mays and Clemente rookie cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I believe the 52 mantle is destined for a SIZABLE down tick. I don't trust anything in the 50s, for lots of reasons. God bless anyone that has the kind of cash to lay on a card that is likely still in hundreds or thousands of peoples attics untouched for 50 years only a few feet from its original owner in that condition.

There are other things keeping that card down, particularly the grading company.

That type of card is not for me at that type of price tag.

I would agree that the past couple of years have seen some irrational exuberance on that card. Even at the lower grades. You could get a nice 4 for under 15 in 2014 or perhaps even into the next year, yet last year I heard of nice 4s selling in the 60s. That, to me, makes little sense.

[botn]

I would agree that the past couple of years have seen some irrational exuberance on that card. Even at the lower grades. You could get a nice 4 for under 15 in 2014 or perhaps even into the next year, yet last year I heard of nice 4s selling in the 60s. That, to me, makes little sense.

I heard centered Mantles will never come down in value.

[irv]

I believe the 52 mantle is destined for a SIZABLE down tick. I don't trust anything in the 50s, for lots of reasons. God bless anyone that has the kind of cash to lay on a card that is likely still in hundreds or thousands of peoples attics untouched for 50 years only a few feet from its original owner in that condition.

There are other things keeping that card down, particularly the grading company.

That type of card is not for me at that type of price tag.

[QUOTE

Exactly!! Just think what the pop reports will be like in 10 years for the Mantle,Koufax,Mays and Clemente rookie cards.

I would agree that the past couple of years have seen some irrational exuberance on that card. Even at the lower grades. You could get a nice 4 for under 15 in 2014 or perhaps even into the next year, yet last year I heard of nice 4s selling in the 60s. That, to me, makes little sense.

You know, since I joined the site and got back into collecting in January of last year, I have been hearing this.

I own one, true, but it is in the lower end scale by a long ways so I am not trying to defend to maintain it's value, but could some of what you say not be true for most cards?

I mean, granted, with newer the cards the more likely there will be more of them, but with recent or somewhat current finds of CJ's, and a bunch of others than have been found within the last 2 years, have the prices come down on those any, or even stabilized?

I personally, like you say about the 52 Mantle, think there are a ton of cards still out there from all years waiting to be discovered, even ones preceding the 52 Topps year so will they have a drastic affect on their current values as well?

And, just out of curiosity, do you guys currently own a 52 Topps Mantle?

It's just an observation, but I have read it time and time again on here, whether it be an Aaron RC, a Koufax, or a Clemente, etc, those who say they are way overvalued and are destined to fall, currently don't own one. ;)

[Baseball Bob]

All I can say is that no market goes up forever. Speculation in the extreme has hit sports memorabilia again, and sooner or later those driving the market will take their profits and go home. Then the cycle will start all over again.

[CrackaJackKid]

You know, since I joined the site and got back into collecting in January of last year, I have been hearing this.

I own one, true, but it is in the lower end scale by a long ways so I am not trying to defend to maintain it's value, but could some of what you say not be true for most cards?

I mean, granted, with newer the cards the more likely there will be more of them, but with recent or somewhat current finds of CJ's, and a bunch of others than have been found within the last 2 years, have the prices come down on those any, or even stabilized?

I personally, like you say about the 52 Mantle, think there are a ton of cards still out there from all years waiting to be discovered, even ones preceding the 52 Topps year so will they have a drastic affect on their current values as well?

And, just out of curiosity, do you guys currently own a 52 Topps Mantle?

It's just an observation, but I have read it time and time again on here, whether it be an Aaron RC, a Koufax, or a Clemente, etc, those who say they are way overvalued and are destined to fall, currently don't own one. ;)

I currently don't own any postwar cards. My comment doesn't stem from jealousy either. The only big name I would ever care to own would be Mantle cause he grew up playing ball an hour away from where I live. Other than that the nostalgic aspect prewar brings could never surpass postwar for me.

[mechanicalman]

You know, since I joined the site and got back into collecting in January of last year, I have been hearing this.

I own one, true, but it is in the lower end scale by a long ways so I am not trying to defend to maintain it's value, but could some of what you say not be true for most cards?

I mean, granted, with newer the cards the more likely there will be more of them, but with recent or somewhat current finds of CJ's, and a bunch of others than have been found within the last 2 years, have the prices come down on those any, or even stabilized?

I personally, like you say about the 52 Mantle, think there are a ton of cards still out there from all years waiting to be discovered, even ones preceding the 52 Topps year so will they have a drastic affect on their current values as well?

And, just out of curiosity, do you guys currently own a 52 Topps Mantle?

It's just an observation, but I have read it time and time again on here, whether it be an Aaron RC, a Koufax, or a Clemente, etc, those who say they are way overvalued and are destined to fall, currently don't own one. ;)

Dale, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the three dudes you quoted could own many multiples of the Mantle you own, so I wouldn't value their opinion any less in the event that they do not own that particular card.

[MattyC]

It is actually possible to love postwar and prewar players/cards, just like it's possible to not see dollar signs or population charts when you look at your cards.

[clydepepper]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1932MINNYMILLERSBUNKER_NEW.JPG

Sorry..usually I try to sneak in a picture of a pre-war baseball player every hundred posts or so but in this particular thread you all are going 'way too fast for an old guy like me ; to make up for my transgression I hereby present the entire complete master set of all Carmen Hill baseball cards. He pitched for the Pirates starting in 1915 at the ripe old age of twenty.

..



Well Done, Sir!
-

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is actually possible to love postwar and prewar players/cards, just like it's possible to not see dollar signs or population charts when you look at your cards.

That's true. For example I go from Anson to Trout (lol). I would say that at least through the 50s I tend to view them all equally.

[MattyC]

I'm with you; I've stumbled onto some cool looking cards of Trout and other modern players lately— there sure is some awesome talent in the game now and some cards with cool retro-vintage designs of those current players. If we love and breathe baseball, it's hard not to embrace all eras and greats, and by extension into cards, all the various cool card sets/designs out there. I never get the vibe that's in some posts where it's as if certain cards or players are pitted in some beef against each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's Clayton's rookie channeling Derek's rookie. :D

[MattyC]

That is a great looking card. Looks like he's about to snap off a filthy curve. Never seen that one before. My son loves Kershaw so now gotta try and find one.

[DeanH3]

It is actually possible to love postwar and prewar players/cards, just like it's possible to not see dollar signs or population charts when you look at your cards.

Gotta agree with Matt. I've rediscovered a little more appreciation for 50's material. Some really great affordable cards to be had in mid-grade.

[iwantitiwinit]

All I can say is that no market goes up forever. Speculation in the extreme has hit sports memorabilia again, and sooner or later those driving the market will take their profits and go home. Then the cycle will start all over again.

+1. The capital markets have taught us this over and over without fail. If the market is open to all and individuals sense there is the possibility of turning a profit these cycles will occur. As soon as the last fool steps in the downward swing begins. Hope I am not that last fool. PS anyone have any T206 Magee portraits for sale?

[Republicaninmass]

The greater fool theory

[Exhibitman]

Prewar, postwar, modern; all just parts of the same spectrum and every year they make more old-school modern cards.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2013%20Topps%20Kershaw.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2016%20Topps%20Now%20591%20Kershaw.jpg

Kershaw is awesome.

[Leon]

No doubt what is old is new. Last year my then 19 yr old daughter wanted a vinyl record player for Christmas.

Back to the other subject, I just wish PWCC would escalate their bid retraction number to get to 2, or less, asap.....

Prewar, postwar, modern; all just parts of the same spectrum and every year they make more old-school modern cards.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2013%20Topps%20Kershaw.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2016%20Topps%20Now%20591%20Kershaw.jpg

Kershaw is awesome.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Prewar, postwar, modern; all just parts of the same spectrum and every year they make more old-school modern cards.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2013%20Topps%20Kershaw.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/2016%20Topps%20Now%20591%20Kershaw.jpg

Kershaw is awesome.

Agreed.

275856

[frankbmd]

Throw in the $60,000 the excused bid retractor has already paid in PWCC Auctions, and assume that the same bidder will prevail in the current Robinson auction which is currently sitting at $37000+,

What is your bet on an over/under at $100,000 for this bidder's winning total with PWCC?

I'm in for over.

Place your bets.

[botn]

Bidder 2 has 18 retractions

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/401341778194?item=401341778194&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

[frankbmd]

Bidder 2 has 18 retractions

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/401341778194?item=401341778194&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

My betting proposition is for the PSA 10 1965 Robinson card.

Your second bidder is bidding on LeBron??/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bidder 2 has 18 retractions

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/401341778194?item=401341778194&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

This one only has 11.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636441206027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

Too tough to monitor a 33K auction though. I understand.

[frankbmd]

This one only has 11.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401341778194&bidtid=636441206027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

Too tough to monitor a 33K auction though. I understand.



It's the goose-gander defense.

What's good for the 37K bidder is good for the 33K bidder.

[botn]

Maybe in both of our examples the bidders have met the buying quota to be exempt from being banned for retractions.

[bnorth]

Maybe in both of our examples the bidders have met the buying quota to be exempt from being banned for retractions.

That is hilarious and sad beyond belief at the same time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Footnote 1? Proviso 2?

[irv]

Maybe in both of our examples the bidders have met the buying quota to be exempt from being banned for retractions.

:D

There must be a hidden set of rules for those that have purchased and consigned with them. If you have done neither, then maybe, just maybe they will limit you to 10 retractions?? That must be what their original letter/memo meant, we just needed to read between the lines.

[uniship]

Don't mean to get off topic - but that card is sweeeeet!!

[Jeffrompa]

That the acrimony , discontent and sarcasm have been brought back to this thread . I was worried .

[frankbmd]

Visit my new website

www.sniperetractor.com

where you can place a snipe bid with 2 seconds left in an auction and then retract it with one second to go.

No max bid is safe and you never need to win a thing.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Visit my new website

www.sniperetractor.com

where you can place a snipe bid with 2 seconds left in an auction and then retract it with one second to go.

No max bid is safe and you never need to win a thing.

you could at least set up a rickroll...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank you should offer a companion service www.stringbid.com/pwcc that will, at a pre-selected time after the opening of a PWCC auction, place up to ten sequential bids at a pre-designated interval.

[frankbmd]

Frank you should offer a companion service www.stringbid.com/pwcc that will, at a pre-selected time after the opening of a PWCC auction, place up to ten sequential bids at a pre-designated interval.


Already working on it.;)

[hcv123]

They can't block the highest bidder, he's probably the only authentic bidder in the whole auction. �� Brent and Betsy need to go find a real job. And yes, I am the type of person that will say this to your face. Can't wait for Nationals

1 lonely voice.... but if there were a group of people - I bet that would draw some needed attention to those unaware of how shady things are here!

[calvindog]

That the acrimony , discontent and sarcasm have been brought back to this thread . I was worried .

It was awful during the Mastro threads too, when they came on the board and told all of us malcontents how wrong we were. John Rogers did it too, another good hobby guy who just happen to run into a sarcastic few:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/117224/big-fat-lies-gwen-moritz-editors-note

Brent and his alter ego Betsy are just the latest in the long list of great hobby guys who were just trying to do the rest of us collectors some good with their auctions until they were derailed by us skeptical no-goodnicks.

[ullmandds]

It was awful during the Mastro threads too, when they came on the board and told all of us malcontents how wrong we were. John Rogers did it too, another good hobby guy who just happen to run into a sarcastic few:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/117224/big-fat-lies-gwen-moritz-editors-note

Brent and his alter ego Betsy are just the latest in the long list of great hobby guys who were just trying to do the rest of us collectors some good with their auctions until they were derailed by us skeptical no-goodnicks.

yup

[Peter_Spaeth]

11 retraction underbidder on second most expensive card, Star Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401346117396&bidtid=638094667027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

25 (lol) retraction high bidder on fourth most expensive card, Fleer Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=142404868127&bidtid=1412032628004&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

18 retraction guy from a few days ago still underbidder on LeBron, guess he merited an exemption after all.

Carry on.

[bobbyw8469]

The Frank Robinson winning bidder had a QUADRUPLE stack going on.....which means his bid was higher.

[Beastmode]

11 retraction underbidder on second most expensive card, Star Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401346117396&bidtid=638094667027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

25 (lol) retraction high bidder on fourth most expensive card, Fleer Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=142404868127&bidtid=1412032628004&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

18 retraction guy from a few days ago still underbidder on LeBron, guess he merited an exemption after all.

Carry on.

The fact e-bay let's this go on is fing insane. Can you imagine what is happening at the AH's that we can't see? Ten-fold this crap.

The only saving grace for me is I put a snipe in at what I think the card is worth; then I walk away. Sometimes I don't even know I won a card until days later. Any other way is just an invitation to be screwed or make an emotional high bid.

[calvindog]

11 retraction underbidder on second most expensive card, Star Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=401346117396&bidtid=638094667027&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

25 (lol) retraction high bidder on fourth most expensive card, Fleer Jordan.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=142404868127&bidtid=1412032628004&_trksid=p2471758.m4792

18 retraction guy from a few days ago still underbidder on LeBron, guess he merited an exemption after all.

Carry on.

I'm sure Betsy is readying a response. Betsy. LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

[bnorth]

I'm sure Betsy is readying a response. Betsy. LOL

I bet it is another on a very long list of naive bidders. Seems to be her go to response.

[frankbmd]

Simple typo.

Should be

April 1, 2018. ;)

[ALR-bishop]

You fellas apparently do not fully appreciate, as Betsy explained in post 40, there are different types of retractions. These you are seeing now must be the naive, inconsiderate but non malicious kind.

[mechanicalman]

You fellas apparently do not fully appreciate, as Besty explained in post 40, there are different types of retractions. These you are seeing now must be the naive, inconsiderate but non malicious kind.

That's funny.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just as an aside, the high bidder on the Frank Robinson, who was at 14 retractions at the time Brent and/or Betsy had that heart to heart with him, is now at 15. Must have been another non malicious one.

[tiger8mush]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

The coincidence of a promise made on April 1st ...

[botn]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Jeez...give Betsy a chance to come on here and explain. My guess is that she can tell us these bidders have both won and paid for more than $60,000 worth of auctions and are therefore exempt from the retraction policy.

[iwantitiwinit]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

As the program continues to mature? What is that supposed to mean? What maturing has to occur, more than 2 bid retractions and you should be done regardless of how much has been spent previously by the bidder. Bids that are retracted influence other bidders prior to retraction and no matter how you look at it are manipulative. I honestly can't see the rationale for allowing multiple retractions. This entire situation stinks in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Robert, I could not agree more. In my opinion it's a lot of feel-good BS and even the feel-good BS doesn't appear to be sincere, as the 10 limit is not being enforced.

[bigfish]

It is true that one of the bidders in this listing exceeds our threshold of bid retractions. We have been in close contact with him/her due to the concerning retractions on this listing. In this case we have a somewhat naïve bidder
using bid retractions inconsiderately but not maliciously. He/she has won and paid for almost $60k in the last three months with PWCC which demonstrates his/her follow through with his/her purchases.

We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked.

Yesterday we held a conference call with the eBay Trust & Safety team to show this as a case study of the fundamental brokenness of the the bid retraction tool and how it can enable otherwise good members of the community to act in a way that is disruptive.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions



Not sure where the confusion is??

Toby Petersen

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not sure where the confusion is??

Toby Petersen

Let's see, I'm confused by the fact that after the kind explanation, for which no proviso was made in their "rules", the bidder has since retracted ANOTHER bid. I am confused by their failure to enforce THEIR OWN policy by the letter of the law they set forth, and I am confused by "inheritant" but that could just be a personal problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Inheritant -- one who inherits? :eek:

[BeanTown]

Maybe PWCC should just ban everyone that goes on any forum and complains about them. Just stop bidding and problem solved.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe PWCC should just ban everyone that goes on any forum and complains about them. Just stop bidding and problem solved.

I have an even better idea. Maybe PWCC should just be truthful, or not speak at all.

[calvindog]

I have an even better idea. Maybe PWCC should just be truthful, or not speak at all.

lol. You can't expect the fraudsters and their co-conspirators to follow that advice.

[irv]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

You fellas apparently do not fully appreciate, as Betsy explained in post 40, there are different types of retractions. These you are seeing now must be the naive, inconsiderate but non malicious kind.

These, and others are humorous, but also sad at the same time.

Embarrassed that I use to speak highly of them. :o

[Jeffrompa]

Every bid after a retraction is suspicious to me . Who does that ?

[Leon]

Every bid after a retraction is suspicious to me . Who does that ?

Screwed up people.

[shagrotn77]

None of the auction houses allow so much as one bid retraction. Granted, there's tons of funny business going on with a lot of them too, but I'm just sayin'.

[Beastmode]

Screwed up people.

I agree, but e-bay buries the retracted bid at the bottom of the page. I would bet over 50% of bidders on e-bay never see it. All by design.

Most of these auctions you have to scroll to the bottom of the page to see if there is a retracted bid. Might be another reason you see so many "string" bidders and multiple bids; so they can bury the retraction another page-down.

It's only a matter of time before e-bay rolls out a members only "high-end" bidding platform with minimum seller/buyer ratings, no retractions, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ebay seems to care far far more about whether you try to sneak an email or phone number into a message. After so many years it seems unlikely to me ebay is going to take a serious stand on retractions. But IMO, sellers have an independent obligation to ensure the integrity of their auctions/business.

[irv]

Ebay seems to care far far more about whether you try to sneak an email or phone number into a message. After so many years it seems unlikely to me ebay is going to take a serious stand on retractions. But IMO, sellers have an independent obligation to ensure the integrity of their auctions/business.

How true is that! Even if you try and space it, or code it, they seem to be on top of it.

I know of a CDN seller, even if his cards don't sell, will not sell private after his auctions end as he is under the impression, if he has listed them on E-Bay then that is his only avenue to sell his cards.

[Eggoman]

I know of a CDN seller, even if his cards don't sell, will not sell private after his auctions end as he is under the impression, if he has listed them on E-Bay then that is his only avenue to sell his cards.

TOO TRUE! I had a NET54 member decline to end an eBay listing and sell the card to me via PM as he was concerned that the eBay Police would find out and suspend his account - REALLY!

[bobbyw8469]

TOO TRUE! I had a NET54 member decline to end an eBay listing and sell the card to me via PM as he was concerned that the eBay Police would find out and suspend his account - REALLY!

Ebay wanted a cut of the cards that I consigned with Robert Edwards auctions last year. True story :p

[Sean]

Ebay wanted a cut of the cards that I consigned with Robert Edwards auctions last year. True story :p

What was their reasoning?

[MikeGarcia]

What was their reasoning?



..and how did they even know ??

..

[mechanicalman]

Ebay wanted a cut of the cards that I consigned with Robert Edwards auctions last year. True story :p

That's some Orwellian $h-- right there. I'm sure we'd love to hear the story if you feel safe to share it. ;)

[bobbyw8469]

It was a joke guys...Ebay is not THAT bad........yet.

[Sean]

It was a joke guys...Ebay is not THAT bad........yet.

So that is what that little face emoji means.