It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[danmckee]

Simply Sickening.... Every bidder 80% or higher on their auctions, they should be kicked off of ebay!

[danmckee]

163 views and no replies, there are a bunch of SHEEP on this chat board!

[bnorth]

163 views and no replies, there are a bunch of SHEEP on this chat board!

No, it has just a subject that has been beaten to death lately. There are 2 opinions on this subject. 1) The people that stick up for them. They are paid for their opinion and/or consign to them. 2) Everyone else and they agree with you.

[Leon]

A couple hundred viwes by now. Someone is just sitting there clicking the thread to piss you off :).

[Thromdog]

I'm at 76%. Just under your threshold

[slidekellyslide]

163 views and no replies, there are a bunch of SHEEP on this chat board!

PWCC fatigue.

[mechanicalman]

Yeah, this topic is stale, but it did raise a new question for me:

How does one tell their own % of bids with a certain seller? I can see others, but not mine.

[Snapolit1]

No, it has just a subject that has been beaten to death lately. There are 2 opinions on this subject. 1) The people that stick up for them. They are paid for their opinion and/or consign to them. 2) Everyone else and they agree with you.

Beaten to death would be putting it mildly.

The %s mean nothing to me. They sell way more cards than anyone else. And some people like to bid $2 at a time. Whatever. It's the rampant bid retractions that are the telltale sign of shenanigans.

[Bliggity]

Yeah, this topic is stale, but it did raise a new question for me:

How does one tell their own % of bids with a certain seller? I can see others, but not mine.

Log out of eBay and then go back to the auction without being signed in. Then you can see your own stats.

I agree that percentages mean nothing. I have a high percentage with PWCC because they have the most auctions. Zero retractions.

[mechanicalman]

Log out of eBay and then go back to the auction without being signed in. Then you can see your own stats.

I agree that percentages mean nothing. I have a high percentage with PWCC because they have the most auctions. Zero retractions.

Thanks Dan.

56% with PWCC. 0 lifetime retractions. 0 shill bids.

[wondo]

Really? I bid with less than ten eBay dealers. What do my stats look like besides the fact I have zero retractions in 18 years. As much as I want to stop fraud and shilling, crying wolf anestitises the problem.

And, yes, I consign to PWCC ......and Probstein, REA, Mile High, brockelman, etc.

[hangman62]

I think its dumb to spend big money on baseball cards

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Another one...

[slipk1068]

I have been trying to understand for a couple years why so many folks defend them no matter what. Consignors? Shill bidders? Employees? Family members??? They do have their defenders.

For full disclosure I have never consigned anything with them, but I do bid a couple times a year. I always feel like I did something wrong when I win something and like I need a shower. I am going to try not to win anything anymore, but I am addicted to stuff :(

[Exhibitman]

crying wolf anestitises the problem.

I don't know what that is but it sounds kinky...

[Beastmode]

Beaten to death would be putting it mildly.

The %s mean nothing to me. They sell way more cards than anyone else. And some people like to bid $2 at a time. Whatever. It's the rampant bid retractions that are the telltale sign of shenanigans.

This ++. I think I may be over 80%, but they have the best auctions for my specific want list. And, I don't have all day to spend searching the crap on ebay that is listed wrong so it can hit my search, or the overpriced BINS that clog up the internet.

Percentage of bid means nothing in terms of shilling. Get over it. Go after the retractors, they are the enemy.

[wondo]

I don't know what that is but it sounds kinky...

Adam,
If I could only learn how to spell or hit the F7 key the world would be my oyster. 😁

[pokerplyr80]

Many collectors, myself included, bid almost exclusively on pwcc auctions on ebay because most other sellers list high end cards for BIN or obo. This has been discussed many times, and in most cases is not evidence of shill bidding.

I recently sent them a couple of cards and ended up getting more than I would have selling privately, after consignment fees, without the hassle, and without placing any shill bids.

[pokerplyr80]

I think its dumb to spend big money on baseball cards

I think it's dumb to criticize others for what they spend their money on.

[Bored5000]

I agree with the previous posters who commented that percentage of bids with PWCC is not necessarily evidence of shill bidding. I posted on here a few weeks that there were dozens of PWCC auctions that had bidders with many retractions; bidders with many retractions is much more damning, IMO, than bidding mostly with just PWCC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have been trying to understand for a couple years why so many folks defend them no matter what. Consignors? Shill bidders? Employees? Family members??? They do have their defenders.

For full disclosure I have never consigned anything with them, but I do bid a couple times a year. I always feel like I did something wrong when I win something and like I need a shower. I am going to try not to win anything anymore, but I am addicted to stuff :(

The vast majority of people just want their stuff and dont care if it is shilled or doctored. This is the perfect market for fraud. As for pwcc defenders certainly some of it imo is self interest.

[bnorth]

I agree with the previous posters who commented that percentage of bids with PWCC is not necessarily evidence of shill bidding. I posted on here a few weeks that there were dozens of PWCC auctions that had bidders with many retractions; bidders with many retractions is much more damning, IMO, than bidding mostly with just PWCC.

I agree that bid percentage is not 100% evidence anymore. A few years ago I was bored and starting watching the bidding patterns of 3 big eBay sellers. They are also known acquaintances. They started sharing the shilling accounts to drop the %. Shill accounts are not only used to directly bump the price they are also used to get items more views. Notice all those small bids at the beginnings of auctions, most of those are shill bids also.

One of the main things I look for is a very high amount of bids and very low feedback. When you have someone that is placing 100's or 1000's of bids per month and has low feedback #s that is your shill accounts. If you watch certain eBay accounts they stick out like a sore thumb.

[PowderedH2O]

I don't know if I agree with that. I place a lot of bids every month. Sometimes I will place a lowball bid on an item instead of putting it in my watch list. I do it that way because every now and then I end up winning a $20 item for $3 or something like that. I might only win 10% of what I bid on. But I shill nothing. I've been on ebay for 20 years, so I have feedback near 3000, but I've probably bid on 30,000 items over that time.

[bnorth]

I don't know if I agree with that. I place a lot of bids every month. Sometimes I will place a lowball bid on an item instead of putting it in my watch list. I do it that way because every now and then I end up winning a $20 item for $3 or something like that. I might only win 10% of what I bid on. But I shill nothing. I've been on ebay for 20 years, so I have feedback near 3000, but I've probably bid on 30,000 items over that time.

There are exceptions to almost anything but how is your 3000 feedback considered low?

One shilling account I have watched off and on for a couple years places 1000's of bids per month on a few 100 items and has a feedback of 67.

[Exhibitman]

I don't know if I agree with that. I place a lot of bids every month. Sometimes I will place a lowball bid on an item instead of putting it in my watch list. I do it that way because every now and then I end up winning a $20 item for $3 or something like that. I might only win 10% of what I bid on. But I shill nothing. I've been on ebay for 20 years, so I have feedback near 3000, but I've probably bid on 30,000 items over that time.

Me too. I probably bid on 20 or more items a week that I'd take at the minimum but won't chase. I win them occasionally but mostly don't.

[Snapolit1]

This ++. I think I may be over 80%, but they have the best auctions for my specific want list. And, I don't have all day to spend searching the crap on ebay that is listed wrong so it can hit my search, or the overpriced BINS that clog up the internet.

Percentage of bid means nothing in terms of shilling. Get over it. Go after the retractors, they are the enemy.

Trying to complete my Gehrig run (should I live long enough) they regularly have cards I am looking in vain for elsewhere on eBay.

[calvindog]

There are 2 opinions on this subject. 1) The people that stick up for them. They are paid for their opinion and/or consign to them. 2) Everyone else and they agree with you.

As with criticism of Mastro too.

[Leon]

Let's please don't forget the lawyers who defend the criminals and fraudsters in our hobby while championing against fraud, LMAO. They should get their accolades too.


There are exceptions to almost anything but how is your 3000 feedback considered low?

One shilling account I have watched off and on for a couple years places 1000's of bids per month on a few 100 items and has a feedback of 67.

[Jeffrompa]

To think that sellers shill just for attention or publicity .

[PowderedH2O]

If you were to look at someone like Rick Probstein, we know that he starts auctions at 99 cents. To be honest, ANY graded card is worth 99 cents. So, I could see someone bidding on virtually every Probstein auction. If you were the opening bidder at 99 cents, you could bid on thousands of items a year and only win one out of every 200. But, it would be worth your while probably. Hence, high percentage of bids with one seller, with very low feedback.

[KingFisk]

It's possible my bid percentage is through the roof with them, simply because I haven't participated in many auctions recently and then went after 15-20 cards on Sunday, placing multiple bids on each.

[calvindog]

Let's please don't forget the lawyers who defend the criminals and fraudsters in our hobby while championing against fraud, LMAO. They should get their accolades too.

I represented people who were either involved or witnessed fraud in the hobby. Most if not all cooperated with the government in their cases brought against larger fraudsters in the hobby. All of this is in the public record. As you know, the FBI and US Attorney's Office would agree that my clients' cooperation helped them convict miscreants in the hobby. No one paid me to look the other way.

Edited to add: Leon, I just called you on your cell so as to avoid yet another public pissing contest on the page. I'm in my office if you'd like to talk.

[MikeGarcia]

It's possible my bid percentage is through the roof with them, simply because I haven't participated in many auctions recently and then went after 15-20 cards on Sunday, placing multiple bids on each.



..up until last night I'd bid on less than a dozen cards , including "make offer" BINS, since January 1st.....then last night I bid on 39 PWCC auctions ; I imagine that skewed my percentage.......but they were 39 snipes , so would that be a factor in the investigation ?

..do "shill" bidders ever make snipe bids ? What if they win ? Isn't it too late to retract if you're the winner ??

..

[darwinbulldog]

..up until last night I'd bid on less than a dozen cards , including "make offer" BINS, since January 1st.....then last night I bid on 39 PWCC auctions ; I imagine that skewed my percentage.......but they were 39 snipes , so would that be a factor in the investigation ?

..do "shill" bidders ever make snipe bids ? What if they win ? Isn't it too late to retract if you're the winner ??

..

You'll find cards sometimes being relisted by a seller in his next slate of auctions. If that answers your question. Which it does.

[bobbyw8469]

If you were to look at someone like Rick Probstein, we know that he starts auctions at 99 cents. To be honest, ANY graded card is worth 99 cents. So, I could see someone bidding on virtually every Probstein auction. If you were the opening bidder at 99 cents, you could bid on thousands of items a year and only win one out of every 200. But, it would be worth your while probably. Hence, high percentage of bids with one seller, with very low feedback.

Not true. I had a 1970 Topps football common PSA 7 that would not get a .99 cent bid to save my life. I think I dropped it to a penny, and someone bit. It sold for that penny too.

[Gradedcardman]

I have won a few items with PWCC. I have lost more. Most of the ones I lose are to legitimate buyers that I recognize by their feedback number or name. I once was bidding on a card that I had seen sell via PWCC 2 weeks prior. The person who won the item the first time was shilling it up. I called PWCC out on it and they retracted all of that bidders activity. I know this happens as I know consigners to Brent who bid on their items. Difficult to police but certainly happens until called out.

[Fballguy]

If you were to look at someone like Rick Probstein, we know that he starts auctions at 99 cents. To be honest, ANY graded card is worth 99 cents. So, I could see someone bidding on virtually every Probstein auction. If you were the opening bidder at 99 cents, you could bid on thousands of items a year and only win one out of every 200. But, it would be worth your while probably. Hence, high percentage of bids with one seller, with very low feedback.

Another mystery of eBay...Starts his auctions at $0.99, yet still manages to sell nearly every item for higher price than everyone else. We should all be that good. ;)

[bnorth]

As with criticism of Mastro too.

LOL, like PWCC there are 2 types with Bill also. Those that received "gift" baskets from him and those that did not.

[bobbyw8469]

Another mystery of eBay...Starts his auctions at $0.99, yet still manages to sell nearly every item for higher price than everyone else. We should all be that good. ;)

Agreed...sometimes my .99 cent auctions end at .99 cents. Not the case with those guys.

[Snapolit1]

I listed about 40 items last year with PWCC, didn't shill them, and about 39 of them went for weak prices. Go figure. It's crazy . . .when you look at VCP for my sale cards it was like the prior sale was $496 and mine sold for $183. Go figure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I listed about 40 items last year with PWCC, didn't shill them, and about 39 of them went for weak prices. Go figure. It's crazy . . .when you look at VCP for my sale cards it was like the prior sale was $496 and mine sold for $183. Go figure.

And I am guessing yours did not have 27 bids after two hours either...

[Snapolit1]

Was reading one set of auction rules recently and it stated that shilling an auction is a violation of a federal crime. I don't know what that law would be. If true, maybe someone should be asking Brent whether he is forwarding on disclosed fraud to his local US Attorneys office.

[bobbyw8469]

I listed about 40 items last year with PWCC, didn't shill them, and about 39 of them went for weak prices. Go figure. It's crazy . . .when you look at VCP for my sale cards it was like the prior sale was $496 and mine sold for $183. Go figure.

Thats crazy.

[pow323]

I bid on a card from PWCC just for the heck of it. Within an hour it was bid up just past my bid and now it is just sitting there with the same bid. Do you think I am going to bid on it again? HA HA!! So what does that tell you??? :rolleyes:

[pawpawdiv9]

Crazy. ^^^
I just had my 1st experience with PWCC...won't no more.
I was expecting to fetch more than I could on my own. Might of as gave the T206 Cobb away.

[Snapolit1]

Thats crazy.

My PWCC auction closed at 1130pm on 11/4, the night of the last presidential election. I've bored everyone on the board with my bitching. When I complained to Brent he said me an inane response about I should be happy, everyone was at home. Yep, sure dude. Whatever. Maybe I will be lucky enough to have my next one with you close when there is a nuclear attack underway. Don't insult my intelligence. Since then I've listed six figures of items since with LOTG, Brockelman, and others. Live and learn.

Bottom line: If you are not going to commit fraud or have others do it their auctions get sub par results.

What are they doing that you can't do yourself? They do some 20 second write up and mail it.

[Exhibitman]

I listed about 40 items last year with PWCC, didn't shill them, and about 39 of them went for weak prices. Go figure. It's crazy . . .when you look at VCP for my sale cards it was like the prior sale was $496 and mine sold for $183. Go figure.

I think we've mostly all figured it out...

[calvindog]

I think we've mostly all figured it out...

Yes, he shilled that last lot!

[ullmandds]

there were a few 51 mantle rookies in the 3-4 range ended last night w/pwcc...and I was surprised how low they sold for...definitely not shilled so it would seem!

[pokerplyr80]

there were a few 51 mantle rookies in the 3-4 range ended last night w/pwcc...and I was surprised how low they sold for...definitely not shilled so it would seem!

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

[Rookiemonster]

Not trying to defend PWCC by any means but it is up to the collector to bid accordingly. Like the game Leon so graciously has on the board. Take a guess at the price of the card/items you want. Then when it's time to bid don't bid more then that. That's what I do haha sure you lose some , but you also win some. For me getting that card at the price I like is just as important as the card to me.

Know your cards! Know your prices ! Snipe!snipe! snipe! And that should put a end to YOU being shilled.

[bobbyw8469]

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

Agreed...centering is boss of the 4 traits. Surface and edges is like a red headed stepchild.

[RedsFan1941]

Know your cards! Know your prices ! Snipe!snipe! snipe! And that should put a end to YOU being shilled.

No. It will not.

[Batpig]

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

Stop using facts.

Is there shilling with PWCC? Yep, but there's shilling with every AH. Sub par results are not a given if no shilling is involved. My last consignment with PWCC included about 100 cards, and I estimated a 9k hammer altogether. I didn't shill any of them, and the total hammer was over 11k.

Having said that, there's things I would never auction with Brent. I tested out some modern unopened and was not happy at all with the results. I've been handling those myself ever since.

I'm actually surprised I've never seen anyone complain about his shipping fees. I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of his profits come from shipping.

[darwinbulldog]

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

[T206Collector]

Do you know why every "timed" auction house other than eBay....

(1) requires an initial bid prior to a standard closing time; and

(2) extends its auction based on bids after the standard closing time?

Because they are consignor-friendly policies that drive prices up, and they do not want to encourage sniping, which keeps prices low.

If you are bidding in an eBay auction with a fixed end time, why would you make an "initial bid" prior to closing time? Are you intentionally trying to give more money to the consignor?

In this respect, eBay is one place where shilling shouldn't work. If everyone snipes, the shiller has a tougher time pegging his "shill snipe" high enough to lose, but low enough to drive prices up illegitimately.

Indeed, if sniping was good for shilling behavior, don't you think eBay would endorse a sniping service, or provide one internally? The fact that they don't tells you everything you need to know about why sniping is good for buyers and bad for consignors and shillers.

[T206Collector]

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

Add me to the list. I view shilling as a "hidden reserve" in every auction I participate in. I pay what I am comfortable paying, and I do not view the history of prices in the market as decided by a pure, free market -- and instead, only an approximation of what one person may have been willing to pay at a certain time for an item.

I do think shilling is an unfortunate, market distorting side effect of the historical baseball card valuation process. But, I do not think there really is anything to be done about it except discourage the practice by prosecuting offenders as they occasionally become identified through their own criminal ineptitude.

[Rookiemonster]

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

[Exhibitman]

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Was reading one set of auction rules recently and it stated that shilling an auction is a violation of a federal crime. I don't know what that law would be. If true, maybe someone should be asking Brent whether he is forwarding on disclosed fraud to his local US Attorneys office.

It can be considered a violation of the Sherman anti-trust Act, it is also fraud and if you are in one state and the item is for sale in another that's Federal.

[Rookiemonster]

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

I know you never said that,but if we are to believe that the current value of the cards we are bidding on have all been pre shilled( I coined this term all rights reserved on preshilled lol) by many years of shill bidding giving us a inflated current market price then what are they worth?

I still believe that a experienced collector can be the judge of a cards value they are in pursuit of.

I was bidding on a card last year in one of the auctions they had and I bid early just so it was on my radar. With half the time left the price reach was already more then I was willing to pay for that card in that condition. So I stopped bidding and the next week I found a better example for less( else where)

[Fballguy]

How does Probstein get to put his contact information in his auction listings? eBay doesn't let me do that. In fact I get warning messages about completing deals off eBay if I correspond too much with eBay members. I guess eBay is willing to look the other way if you're generating massive fee revenue for them.

[Buythatcard]

How does Probstein get to put his contact information in his auction listings? eBay doesn't let me do that. In fact I get warning messages about completing deals off eBay if I correspond too much with eBay members. I guess eBay is willing to look the other way if you're generating massive fee revenue for them.

According to eBay policy. This is Not Allowed:

"Posting or displaying contact information in a listing, including email, phone number, and mailing address, without the permission of eBay or except as required by law"

I guess he got permission.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to eBay policy. This is Not Allowed:

"Posting or displaying contact information in a listing, including email, phone number, and mailing address, without the permission of eBay or except as required by law"

I guess he got permission.

Some sellers are more equal than others.

[Leon]

How many lawyers do you think wrote their rules and regulations?
:)

Some sellers are more equal than others.

[frankbmd]

How many lawyers do you think wrote their rules and regulations?
:)

Not one more than they can afford.;)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

[Dpeck100]

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book



I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

[jefferyepayne]

I now stay clear of any auction in which a bidder with multiple retractions OR has close to 0 feedback is involved. If PWCC won't adequately police these obvious shillers / crooks, I will. Somebody else can get taken.

jeff

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

I like the term 'the pack'. I also have bid on a card and i see the same 2 people bidding on it on ebay past sales and when one wins the card, the other one snags the later card. Then on the third time around it sells for a lot cheaper. Obviously if its a POP 2 card that wont happen, but lets say it was for a Babe Ruth PSA 3 goudey card.. would be plenty of opportunities as long as its not being hoarded etc..

Iacard with worth what someone is willing to pay for it but historical prices with suspect bidding (not shilled but only interest between 2 bidders) above 'the pack' i would change that expression to what someone NOW would be willing to pay for it

[MantleBham]

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

[hedgefund96]

I think it's dumb to criticize others for what they spend their money on.
Poker, U agree and let me add that it is no one's XXXXX business if I spend and how much I spend!! That was an asinine blanket statement but yes an opinion..

[Republicaninmass]

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

It's not rocket science,. It boils down to fleecing new consignors Into sending items that do sell for real bids, much lower than last sales.

[cardsnstuff]

My PWCC auction closed at 1130pm on 11/4, the night of the last presidential election. I've bored everyone on the board with my bitching. When I complained to Brent he said me an inane response about I should be happy, everyone was at home. Yep, sure dude. Whatever. Maybe I will be lucky enough to have my next one with you close when there is a nuclear attack underway. Don't insult my intelligence. Since then I've listed six figures of items since with LOTG, Brockelman, and others. Live and learn.

Bottom line: If you are not going to commit fraud or have others do it their auctions get sub par results.

What are they doing that you can't do yourself? They do some 20 second write up and mail it.


I agree :)

[pokerplyr80]

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

My experience with them has been the opposite. The last higher end card I sent Brent I first listed here, dropped the price and would have accepted a slightly lower offer, and it ended up selling for more than my original ask. Without being shilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With that many cards on the auction block, experiences are going to vary. I don't think the fact that some guys did relatively poorly means that every strong price is shilled. At the same time, I have seen some that leave me shaking my head and some bidding patterns that looked pretty damn suspicious and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consignors running up their own.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Some thoughts without mentioning company names so I don’t get in trouble:

-the sniping service I use is authorized by eBay - about a year or so ago, I had to reregister with them as they are now an “eBay service” so I had to agree to let them place bids for me - if eBay was trying to prevent sniping, they wouldn't allow these services. I'm surprised how many savvy eBay buyers are out there - I've bid on mundane (non collectables) stuff like old gaming systems - not super old (Wii and PS3) and all the real bidding still takes place at the end

-eBay bidding history is pretty transparent, so its not hard to look at schilling on a case by case basis. Sometimes if I win a card I want, I don’t look at the history - it doesn’t do much good to see the underbidder has 0 feedback and 96% with the same seller.

-When I do look, I believe I have seen cases where the schillers were brazen enough to snipe. It doesn’t make it right to call it a “hidden reserve”. According to the rules I’m bidding under, there is no reserve, so if a card sells lower than I’m willing to pay - I’m supposed to get the benefit of that "saving" - its fraud if I'm cheated out of that.

-I suspect if the schillers do successfully win a snipe, they don't pay which I think is unique to eBay because I think for auction houses, the bid is binding. Why can't eBay do that? Why is it so easy to get out of paying? If it wasn't, it may cut down on shady behavior.

-I had a eBay seller once tell me that they can’t block “new bidders”. I can see that for small time sellers, but for the larger sellers, you would think requiring a minimum feedback would at least discourage “small time” schilling

[bensie]

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

Cards are not fungible. The 4SC 9 may have been more obviously defective than the PWCC card.

However, I do agree with the first part of your post. Shilling isn't a viable business model. If you guys are so convinced that they shill and push the value of the auctions artificially high, then the answer is simple. Buy from somewhere else and then consign your cards with PCCC to exploit what you think is their unfair advantage.

[bensie]

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.


Exactly. I both buy from and sell with PWCC. I set my buy price at my comfort level and forget about it. With selling, most of the cards sell for what I expect. However, you do get a few outliers both high and low. It's the nature of the auction format, the fact that these cards aren't a commodity, and a myriad of other factors.

[Neal]

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

[Marchillo]

Bid percentage isn't the best indication of foul play. I am sure I have a really high bid percentage with Greg Morris. I'll buy starter lots from the 50's and 60's and then at some point I need to start buying singles. They do so many set breaks of the years in my wheelhouse I could place 2-3 bids on 30-40 items in one night maybe win 10-15 of them. I always go this route because buying singles from multiple sources creates way too many shipping charges. Their format is perfect for what I am doing.

But then look at my bid retractions and I've never had a single one.

I buy from plenty of other sellers but when I am on a GM run I bid a lot in a short period of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

[bobbyw8469]

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

Exactly...I have sold cards that are like at 10-20% with an hour to go. It's scary....but at least my concious is clear.

[bensie]

Exactly...I have sold cards that are like at 10-20% with an hour to go. It's scary....but at least my concious is clear.
Haha! Yeah, no matter how many times that happens, I still sit there biting my nails and hitting refresh.

[Throttlesteer]

I have bought many things from PWCC and never had any issues. I pay what I think something is worth. If I get outbid, oh well. They also happen to be somewhat local, so I know anything I win won't take long to arrive and doesn't have far to travel.

[MantleBham]

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

[hcv123]

do you enjoy the 4sc and pwcc office christmas parties?

:d:d:d

[Neal]

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

never invited …. oh well

but a small percentage of my collection comes from PWCC, and probably close to half of my 80s to 90s slabs come from 4SC


I think for myself, set numbers in my head, and don't whine like a bitch about either company ….

[Peter_Spaeth]

On most "commodity" cards from the 70s and up 4SC's BIN prices are usually at the more reasonable end of the scale and often the lowest. And you can buy for 10 percent less than that usually off their website. They've been a good resource as I expanded my rookie card runs.

[cardcountry]

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.


Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

[calvindog]

Twelve years later and people still think it's ok if an auction house shills you as long as you pay the price you wanted for the card.

[Leon]

Twelve years later and people still think it's ok if an auction house shills you as long as you pay the price you wanted for the card.

And lawyers saying committing fraud is no big deal? It's the times we live in. Selective angst is I believe what it is called.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

Jeff, no doubt some of the high bidding out of the gate is legit. But when I see the same patterns over and over again that I don't see with other sellers -- especially combined with the string bidding -- I just prefer to stay away and focus on auctions that behave more normally. As many PWCC auctions do, I should add. There are very few cards on ebay that can't be found again, either the next week or worst case with a little patience.

[Republicaninmass]

How many times is the same card relisted by these "consignment companies" until the desired price is obtained? I sometimes get a good laugh looking at vcp and see the last 3 or 4 sales of the same card, from the same seller. They should offer the option to send it to the "other" one if the desired price is not met.

2 Ebayers that were blantenty shilled, who subsequently didnt pay, were blocked immediately from further auctions.

Selective blocking?

[ruth-gehrig]

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

What auction house is aware of your max bid price?

[ullmandds]

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

you may be the only one who find this funny! you and maybe jerry seinfeld who loves to overpay for things.

[cardcountry]

What auction house is aware of your max bid price?

It wasn’t a max bid. It was a straight bid. The opening bid was like $5,000 but I bid a straight bid of $25000. It was a card that would likely end around there that I really wanted to win. Didn’t end up winning though.

Jeff

[jmb]

A couple months ago I listed a PSA1.5 #149 Ruth on the BST for $1800 shipped. Didn't get a single PM on it. Sent it to PWCC to sell for me and it ended around $2300 or so and I ended up getting about $2100 from PWCC. No shilling was involved.

[mechanicalman]

you may be the only one who find this funny! you and maybe jerry seinfeld who loves to overpay for things.

His story referenced that he big strong and early, not that he overpayed.

[ullmandds]

His story referenced that he big strong and early, not that he overpayed.

I stand corrected sam

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

What auction house is aware of your max bid price?

yeah, yikes

[Dpeck100]

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff



OMG a hobby vet that doesn't snipe for every bid they place. LOL

What is wrong with you??? Haha

I have done this many times with great results. I take heat every time I say it but the most risky bid of all is the nuclear snipe because everyone is hip to the idea that the most serious bids generally come at the end and so consignors can more easily fit in with a final snipe bid to protect their item.

On a side note I was typing this first part up and took a call from a client and we ended up discussing an EBAY item he wanted to win and he said I might just bid right now and try and bomb them into submission before the end. Haha.

[cardcountry]

Yep! It's just my way of trying to narrow the bidding pool. If someone sees the item already has a high bid, they may be more likely to pass on by. But if they see a bargain, they'll likely bid or set a snipe (if its eBay).

[Exhibitman]

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

I've done this with an AH that allows bidding to jump to specific levels. IMO there are certain price points that if you occupy that level it can discourage additional bidding. I've found that to be especially true when the bid increments change as the price goes up. I am not sure how well that works with eBay since you can't jump levels. Besides, I just get too annoyed watching the weevils bore away at my maximum price if I go all-in on eBay with an early bid. I'd rather snipe what I want to spend and take my chances. FWIW, I would never leave a scorched earth bid with PWCC, even on a snipe, due to all of the shilling allegations and activity reported on this and other boards.

Oh, and just so I won't get criticized for not condemning shilling: shilling sucks and shill bidders should be castrated with dull butter knives dipped in battery acid.

[Dpeck100]

Yep! It's just my way of trying to narrow the bidding pool. If someone sees the item already has a high bid, they may be more likely to pass on by. But if they see a bargain, they'll likely bid or set a snipe (if its eBay).



I only use one Ebay ID and it is very easy to figure out who people are based on the feedback number and so if they realize it is someone serious that can help too.

[Throttlesteer]

I don't think it's ok for major auction houses to shill. But again, I can always vote with my wallet. I don't feel like I've had any of my PWCC purchases artificially inflated. Maybe I'm not bidding on the super high-dollar stuff either.

So, my question is.....if a company is obviously shilling, is the purpose of this thread to:

1. inform members to be careful when bidding on items from PWCC
2. put a sour taste in everyone's mouth about PWCC to eliminate some of the competition
3. hope someone feels empowered enough and thinks there's a case to actually go after PWCC directly

Not trying to stir the pot. I'm just curious at what point we write off all companies due to a post that ends up getting smeared all over the board. Are there any reputable auction houses that haven't had any questionable transactions?

[x2drich2000]

I definitely put in large opening bids to reduce my competition on lots I really want with the AHs that allow you to put in a straight bid. To me it is simply a strategy to eliminate people who might be looking for a bargain or where it might not be their top priority.

As a side question, with the AHs that do not allow you to put in straight bids (Heritage, REA for instance), would you consider it unethical to have a friend (not the consignor!) who has no desire to win the lot, bid you up on purpose to in essence make your bid a straight bid?

DJ

[bensie]

I definitely put in large opening bids to reduce my competition on lots I really want with the AHs that allow you to put in a straight bid. To me it is simply a strategy to eliminate people who might be looking for a bargain or where it might not be their top priority.

As a side question, with the AHs that do not allow you to put in straight bids (Heritage, REA for instance), would you consider it unethical to have a friend (not the consignor!) who has no desire to win the lot, bid you up on purpose to in essence make your bid a straight bid?

DJ
So in essence, you'd be shilling your own bid to a price that you're willing to pay? IE bidding against yourself in an auction? LOL. I think that's perfectly fine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can understand as a practical matter wanting to lock up a bid level given the way AH increments work. I am not understanding the psychology of thinking you're scaring someone off a card, like a dog marking his territory. I could see the opposite effect -- someone interested in a card sees high early prices and thinks he's underestimated the value and becomes willing to bid more.

[Leon]

I can understand as a practical matter wanting to lock up a bid level given the way AH increments work. I am not understanding the psychology of thinking you're scaring someone off a card, like a dog marking his territory. I could see the opposite effect -- someone interested in a card sees high early prices and thinks he's underestimated the value and becomes willing to bid more.

Told before but, a long time ago, in a public/private auction I bid 8k straight as the first bid (*or the 2nd I forget) and the opening bid was 1k. That was about the first or second day of the auction as I recall. I won this lot for my 8k plus juice and was happy. They were sold with my first collection sale.

http://luckeycards.com/pe94overprintset3.jpg

[JollyElm]

"You're."

[rats60]

I can understand as a practical matter wanting to lock up a bid level given the way AH increments work. I am not understanding the psychology of thinking you're scaring someone off a card, like a dog marking his territory. I could see the opposite effect -- someone interested in a card sees high early prices and thinks he's underestimated the value and becomes willing to bid more.

It might work for a card that is auctioned off frequently such as 50s-60s Topps. Say a card sells in the 400-500 range. Place a bid that would have to be topped by a bid over 500 and hope people will just wait until the next one shows up in a couple weeks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It might work for a card that is auctioned off frequently such as 50s-60s Topps. Say a card sells in the 400-500 range. Place a bid that would have to be topped by a bid over 500 and hope people will just wait until the next one shows up in a couple weeks.

Yes, but to me that's just locking up the level above which it's not practical to go higher, psychology has nothing to do with it.

[mechanicalman]

Yes, but to me that's just locking up the level above which it's not practical to go higher, psychology has nothing to do with it.

Funny. I would argue psychology has everything to do with it. As a marketer, though, I believe most non-essential purchases are driven by emotion, not practicality.

That said, I don't think we disagree on the principle, but our semantics seem to be driven by our respective professions. ;)