Bad Experience with Fellow Member

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

1

[Bpm0014]

Wow, that's pretty bad! It looks torn. He won't give a refund?? Are you sure? That would be a first. Sellers are usually pretty easy to deal with here!

[timzcardz]

0 here.

[jb217676]

Why did the photo get removed?

[brianp-beme]

Thanks for the heads up. I will never deal with that bad, bad '1' again.

Brian

[Leon]

Thanks for the heads up. I will never deal with that bad, bad '1' again.

Brian

1 is bad but you really have to watch out for 2.

[1952boyntoncollector]

1 is bad but you really have to watch out for 2.

Thats especially true when dealing with little kids..

[vintagesportscollector]

There are three types of people in the world, those who can count and those who can't.

[nsaddict]

I assume the OP edited as he got a refund? Hopefully, anyone with a bad experience would try working it out first before starting a thread about it?

[HRBAKER]

Just more sand through the hourglass. :)

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I assume the OP edited as he got a refund? Hopefully, anyone with a bad experience would try working it out first before starting a thread about it?



No refund. Bad experience. Gave the seller multiple chances to answer still hasn't. I just deleted cause I didn't want to start drama. Long story short, was sold a card as VG. Spent 250. Card has a nasty crease definitely not VG. Seller said no refund and to get my money out of the card from someone else.

[JeremyW]

I assume the OP edited as he got a refund? Hopefully, anyone with a bad experience would try working it out first before starting a thread about it?

I agree, for the most part, but it doesn't help the community when a shady dealing is silenced by a refund.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I agree, for the most part, but it doesn't help the community when a shady dealing is silenced by a refund.



I don't want to attack people but if enough people want me to I will, to help the community avoid this seller.

[Mountaineer1999]

This is becoming increasingly annoying

[Paul S]

Stephen, probably a question that answers itself, but I guess you didn't ask for a scan first(?)

[ngnichols]

I REALLY don't like buying a card raw unless I can inspect it in-person. There are just too many characteristics that just don't translate well over a cell-phone picture or sometimes even a scan. That's why I like to buy/sell graded so the amount of ambiguity is mostly negated. That's not to say there can't be an issue buying a graded card, but it really lowers the chances down.

[vintagesportscollector]

No refund. Bad experience. Gave the seller multiple chances to answer still hasn't. I just deleted cause I didn't want to start drama. Long story short, was sold a card as VG. Spent 250. Card has a nasty crease definitely not VG. Seller said no refund and to get my money out of the card from someone else.


Did you see the card before you bought it? was the crease disclosed? A VG 3 can have a visible crease, but I don't know how bad this one is.

[RedsFan1941]

Really a shame when good people always seem to find themselves in the middle of drama after drama.

[x2drich2000]

I don't want to attack people but if enough people want me to I will, to help the community avoid this seller.

Personally, I think anyone on this board that values their reputation should be willing to give a refund if the purchaser is not happy. That said, the original listing pictures from the seller were in my opinion pretty crappy (not the one you posted), but he did describe the major issue. However, his description was, in my opinion, very generously. So did you ask for better pictures before purchasing? Either way, I think it is only appropriate that the seller issue a refund, and given what I've seen, would not hesitate to warn others of the seller.

DJ

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I don't want to attack people but if enough people want me to I will, to help the community avoid this seller.



Ok so it was a cell phone pic. I was honest with him from the get go and said I would pay 200 because I wanted to sell it and make a few bucks on it. He said he couldn't but he'd do 275 heck even 250. He said there were a few "light creases". He then told me all he deals with is raw and he's very accurate at grading. I said ok to 250. Thinking I could make 50-75 on it. (Couldn't tell how bad the crease was from pics) upon arrival this card is a good at best. Terrible crease. I politely asked for a refund and he said no refunds. I can get my money out of the card from someone else.

[KingFisk]

Would like to know who seller is but would also like to understand what happened. Can we see scans again? I may have missed everything from initial post.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I just don't think it's right to be denied a refund is all. He lied and stole from me in essence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Name names. Otherwise this is a waste of everyone's time.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Name names. Otherwise this is a waste of everyone's time.



Ok when I get home from dinner I'll post photos and the message I got. Just didn't want this to turn into a huge deal which is why I deleted it originally. I want to just keep trading like always and thought this may hurt me by coming off nasty calling someone out, however if you guys feel I should tell then I promise I will to protect potential buyers.

[vintagesportscollector]

I agree a refund should be given, but if you are making a decision based on a crappy scan, without asking for a better one, and trusting the grading opinion of the seller, then you need to own some of this too. Live and learn and move on. Sorry to hear this happened to you.

Wouldn’t mind seeing the card and the original scan, so we know all the facts (how bad or light a crease is can be subjective), but maybe BEST to just close this one out and move on…we have enough Kangaroo Courts on this forum already.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think requests for refunds should be timely, but if one is made, generally it should be honored.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I defend you when I think it's appropriate Stephen, but what was the point of this thread other than attention UNLESS you post a name. It doesn't serve as a caveat unless we know who we're dealing (or not dealing) with.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I think requests for refunds should be timely, but if one is made, generally it should be honored.



I literally pmed him the moment I opened it up. Yes I guess I could have asked for better photos, I just am the type of person to trust until getting burned. Now I got burned. How someone can take something that is not theirs is beyond me. How could you not issue a refund? I do not want the card he knows it and doesn't care. That's bad business. Very bad business.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I defend you when I think it's appropriate Stephen, but what was the point of this thread other than attention UNLESS you post a name. It doesn't serve as a caveat unless we know who we're dealing (or not dealing) with.



I know you do. I will post everything the moment I'm home. Promise.

[KingFisk]

And in a thread like this it's always good to hear from seller to get both sides. Caveat emptor is plainly stated on the BST, but there is certainly a high standard of conduct that takes place here, which I believe would extend to timely returns, as Peter said. I've never had a bad experience here and would like to keep it that way.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[kailes2872]

I have started writing a response a few times and then stopped as I am trying to stay out of the ultimate trade up, like sands in the hourglass drama...

I guess I must be the only one that thinks that if the card was flippable for 50-100 bucks, then a card like a '56 Mantle would have been snatched up quickly on this board. There are enough people who do it for a living on a day to day basis that a liquid card like that would have been jumped on if there was value - yet those folks passed on it at that price because they knew their market.

I saw the card and the seller in the initial post. It is rough and was probably more fair or poor, but there picture was there and it was pretty evident. The seller negotiated and came down in price. He made a picture available. The OP thought that a flip was there, but it was not.

It could very well have been that the seller thought that the OP valued the card more than him and thought that it was more liquid - like he had mulch versus a gold bar or something like that.

Kinda feels like Caveat Emptor, but what do I know...

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I have started writing a response a few times and then stopped as I am trying to stay out of the ultimate trade up, like sands in the hourglass drama...

I guess I must be the only one that thinks that if the card was flippable for 50-100 bucks, then a card like a '56 Mantle would have been snatched up quickly on this board. There are enough people who do it for a living on a day to day basis that a liquid card like that would have been jumped on if there was value - yet those folks passed on it at that price because they knew their market.

I saw the card and the seller in the initial post. It is rough and was probably more fair or poor, but there picture was there and it was pretty evident. The seller negotiated and came down in price. He made a picture available. The OP thought that a flip was there, but it was not.

It could very well have been that the seller thought that the OP valued the card more than him and thought that it was more liquid - like he had mulch versus a gold bar or something like that.

Kinda feels like Caveat Emptor, but what do I know...


Kevin, you could not tell it was poor from his photo. The photo you are referring to is what I took. That is where you can see how bad it actually is.

[iwantitiwinit]

Ok so it was a cell phone pic. I was honest with him from the get go and said I would pay 200 because I wanted to sell it and make a few bucks on it. He said he couldn't but he'd do 275 heck even 250. He said there were a few "light creases". He then told me all he deals with is raw and he's very accurate at grading. I said ok to 250. Thinking I could make 50-75 on it. (Couldn't tell how bad the crease was from pics) upon arrival this card is a good at best. Terrible crease. I politely asked for a refund and he said no refunds. I can get my money out of the card from someone else.

Usually if it seems to good to be true it is. Would think that if you thought you could make 50-75 off it the seller would think the same if the card was actually in the condition the seller represented it to be. Never understood why people think they can buy raw cards accept someone's opinion as to condition, someone who they don't know and then think they can flip the card for a profit.

Aside from that since the card wasn't graded I would think it's only right that you would have the opportunity for a refund. If the card was graded I'd say it would be acceptable to not offer a refund since a graded card has effectively become commoditized but in this case, if what you are saying is accurate, I'd say you have an argument.

[iwantitiwinit]

I have started writing a response a few times and then stopped as I am trying to stay out of the ultimate trade up, like sands in the hourglass drama...

I guess I must be the only one that thinks that if the card was flippable for 50-100 bucks, then a card like a '56 Mantle would have been snatched up quickly on this board. There are enough people who do it for a living on a day to day basis that a liquid card like that would have been jumped on if there was value - yet those folks passed on it at that price because they knew their market.

I saw the card and the seller in the initial post. It is rough and was probably more fair or poor, but there picture was there and it was pretty evident. The seller negotiated and came down in price. He made a picture available. The OP thought that a flip was there, but it was not.

It could very well have been that the seller thought that the OP valued the card more than him and thought that it was more liquid - like he had mulch versus a gold bar or something like that.

Kinda feels like Caveat Emptor, but what do I know...


Agree 100%. Saw this after I posted my previous comment.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Here you go.

Really not looking for attention or drama. I just want to protect the integrity of this board.

Message #1

Hey Tim,

I'd be buying it to try to make a few bucks, but can offer 200. If that works let me know and I can pay immediately. Thanks

Response:

I think you mean for the 1956 Topps, right?

Don't think I'll go quite there. How about 275? Putting a few items up over the next week or so. Trying to get the wife new counter tops in the kitchen...


Message #2

(I do not have a sent mailbox set up apparently) so it went something like...

I am offering you a price based on a 2 not a 3.


Response:

I will send it in myself if I don't get my price and I think it will be a 3 as I stated. Great eye appeal and it's from my personal collection where VG is my baseline. I already sent in my other 3 and it came back a 3. While I don't do this for a living and won't offer any guarantees, I think if I hang at 300 a collector will get it for pretty close to the price. I'll keep 275 offered to you if you change your mind. Heck, if you'll really pay tonight, 250. Good til 12pm EST.

No matter what, good luck to you. I also have 2 Red Hearts as well, one an SGC 4 and one nicer but ungraded. Would consider a straight sale as well at the right price.

(Yes I realize upon reading this that the no guarantees should have been a HUGE red flag, however he seemed knowledgeable as I took him at his word with the other 3 cards he got graded)


Here is the photo he had posted....



https://sportscardalbum.com/c/6511sguk.jpg (https://sportscardalbum.com/card/6511sguk/n-a)


Here is what I got in the mail today...



https://sportscardalbum.com/c/z37do16t.JPG (https://sportscardalbum.com/card/z37do16t/n-a)

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/0cyq9876.JPG (https://sportscardalbum.com/card/0cyq9876/n-a)


Upon receiving the card I was very very disappointed.

I immediately sent him a message (don't have my sent messages) along the lines of..

Hello,

Just got the card and I must say I am disappointed. You told me this was VG but it is definitely NOT VG. I do not want any hard feelings, however I would like a refund due to the fact that this card is not as was described to me. Please get back to me asap.



His response:

Stephen,

There will be no refund. The card was well described we negotiated and you agreed to a price.

You will have no problem selling it at $250 to get out of the transaction yourself.

Have a good one,

Tim




I have since written to him 2 more times explaining I would rather not go to the board, and is $250 really worth ruining his reputation with the board over. No answer.

Although the motto on the BST is buyer beware, I was assuming satisfaction guaranteed as it always should be. No one is here to hurt someone else (or I thought).

His user ID is TimBegs.


Photos will be loaded soon.

[x2drich2000]

You could also just link to the original sale post which included his description as well.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

DJ

[slidekellyslide]

You should be refunded. There's no way that card is a 3 and you can't really tell from the small pics he put up on the BST.

[rainier2004]

Its just a bad pic, seems like the easy thing to do as ask for an additional scan or picture. He had a more thorough description than what you see on most cards here...just a bad pic. I'd issue a refund, but I'd be annoyed that I did.

[ramram]

This whole thread just drips.

Rob M

[TobaccoKing4]

Its just a bad pic, seems like the easy thing to do as ask for an additional scan or picture. He had a more thorough description than what you see on most cards here...just a bad pic. I'd issue a refund, but I'd be annoyed that I did.

In what world is that a VG card? The guy is acting like a scumbag. Don't make excuses for him.

[pokerplyr80]

I am always suspicious if a seller posts paypal ff only in their listing. Unless I know a seller or someone I do know vouches for him I send funds pp goods to avoid situations like this. Especially with someone who just signed up to this site 2 months ago. I believe there might still be a way to file a PayPal claim if you did send ff, but I have never tried this personally.

[CMIZ5290]

I have started writing a response a few times and then stopped as I am trying to stay out of the ultimate trade up, like sands in the hourglass drama...

I guess I must be the only one that thinks that if the card was flippable for 50-100 bucks, then a card like a '56 Mantle would have been snatched up quickly on this board. There are enough people who do it for a living on a day to day basis that a liquid card like that would have been jumped on if there was value - yet those folks passed on it at that price because they knew their market.

I saw the card and the seller in the initial post. It is rough and was probably more fair or poor, but there picture was there and it was pretty evident. The seller negotiated and came down in price. He made a picture available. The OP thought that a flip was there, but it was not.

It could very well have been that the seller thought that the OP valued the card more than him and thought that it was more liquid - like he had mulch versus a gold bar or something like that.

Kinda feels like Caveat Emptor, but what do I know...

Yea....The ultimate trade up, you should have gotten this card in a PSA 7 for Stephen to come out OK....

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am always suspicious if a seller posts paypal ff only in their listing. Unless I know a seller or someone I do know voucher for him I send funds pp goods to avoid situations like this. Especially with someone who just signed up to this site 2 months ago. I believe there might still be a way to file a PayPal claim if you did send ff, but I have never tried this personally.

I think he's toast on Paypal but it should not come to that. Unhappy buyer, refund him, period. WTF.

[Leon]

I would be annoyed if you sold me that card, from a small scan, and said you thought it would be a 3.

Its just a bad pic, seems like the easy thing to do as ask for an additional scan or picture. He had a more thorough description than what you see on most cards here...just a bad pic. I'd issue a refund, but I'd be annoyed that I did.

[pokerplyr80]

I think he's toast on Paypal but it should not come to that. Unhappy buyer, refund him, period. WTF.

It shouldn't Peter but it sounds like it will. At least from the one side of the story we've heard. It seems counter intuitive but I believe during a phone conversation with paypal during a dispute I asked if there was a way to still file a claim if money was sent ff and was told yes. As I mentioned I have never tried this, but a phone call wouldn't hurt.

[ngnichols]

I am always suspicious if a seller posts paypal ff only in their listing. Unless I know a seller or someone I do know voucher for him I send funds pp goods to avoid situations like this. Especially with someone who just signed up to this site 2 months ago. I believe there might still be a way to file a PayPal claim if you did send ff, but I have never tried this personally.

It's just like handing someone cash so unless you can go yank it back out of his bank account, you're sunk.

I've done a few transactions on here both online and locally and have had nothing but success, but I also made sure to CYA and check out who I was dealing with as some of those were pretty high-dollar transactions.

I don't think the OP necessarily got scammed, but I think the seller may have over-sold the card's condition and the OP kinda trusted the guy too much and should have either gotten better pictures/scans or stayed away from the deal altogether. Regardless, there was some mis-information and as long as the seller isn't out any money, he should do a refund to the OP and all involved just call it a wash and move on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It shouldn't Peter but it sounds like it will. At least from the one side of the story we've heard. It seems counter intuitive but I believe during a phone conversation with paypal during a dispute I asked if there was a way to still file a claim if money was sent ff and was told yes. As I mentioned I have never tried this, but a phone call wouldn't hurt.

I don't think you can even file a dispute going f/f, it's like sending someone a cash transfer.

[vthobby]

I don't think you can even file a dispute going f/f, it's like sending someone a cash transfer.

Correct Peter UNLESS you send f/f and pay with a credit card........then you could dispute the credit card transaction as "goods not as described" or however you want to word it. I can tell you from experience that Paypal HATES when you dispute your credit card transaction. They despise it when you do that and will sometimes limit your account after. Just FYI. That being said, if I truly had a legit complaint and the seller was not cooperating, then I would dispute the charge. Its your right.

Peace, Mike

[wondo]

I assume that even though we acknowledge caveat emptor, the assumption is that the deal is dependent upon both sides being satisfied with the transaction. Seems huckster-Esque to sell in pics and embellishments and then say, so sorry!", if the buyer is unhappy. Just my personal opinion.

[Snapolit1]

I think every transaction on BST should incorporate a rapid return and refund if the buyer is not happy. Don't be a dick. This is a board of like minded people coming together to have some fun and share a hobby. It's not the wild west. If someone is not happy and raises it timely give them their damm money back.
I've done dozens of deals on BST and every one has been friendly and transactions all sales were professionally done.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

On what planet is that top crease "Light" catastrophic is more like it.

Even if both creases were mere wrinkles, a buyer wants a refund, I grant one, but that's me. I have granted one partial refund already in an auction sale here without any drama.

[RedsFan1941]

Curious for opinions on if people were selling this card on the BST, would they point out that it's really one-third of a card so a buyer would know exactly what he's getting? Or would you just list it with a scan and a price, and nothing else?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1655548#post1655548

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

regardless, if it sells and he doesn't give a refund when asked, I'd be all over him.

[swarmee]

Curious for opinions on if people were selling this card on the BST, would they point out that it's really one-third of a card so a buyer would know exactly what he's getting? Or would you just list it with a scan and a price, and nothing else?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1655548#post1655548

Once I saw that posted, I texted Steven and informed him that the card is not a T205, but 1/3rd of a T202 Triple Folder. He is still new to vintage, and didn't realize the card torn. That's the reason he priced it at $23 to start. He is moving very fast into vintage, and probably needs to slow down a bit and take a month or two to learn the ropes. Erratic exuberance, I would say.
Edit: I didn't expect it to still be listed. Steven should take it down or disclose it and reduce the price. And I expect he will. Maybe he'll throw it into the next trade he makes as a freebie. I have sold some T202 1/3rds before that were probably $5-6 for commons, and up to $75 for the Ty Cobb sliding center panel. So there is some value, just not the price he has it listed at.

[seablaster]

Another vote here for that card not being a 3 and the OP should be refunded.

[Timbegs]

First off, I am quite impressed with the number of people who offer their opinion of a private transaction that happened between two members having heard one side of the story. I think 53 posts and 2000+ views is pretty amazing. What you will hear from me is what actually happened. You are aware of some of what has been said so far (at least by me, though not by Steven). I have every message Steven sent to me, as well - time stamped. None will be posted publicly simply because I don't think that is good etiquette or precedent for board members. However, I will paraphrase. Form your own opinions.

My name is Tim Begley - this is the rule, I believe, right? Post your full name. I'm not quite positive you have to when defending your reputation as opposed to attacking another's but I will since I have nothing to hide.

So here's some relevant information on me. First, I have no professional experience as a seller, dealer, auctioneer, graded or manufacturer of baseball cards. Occasionally, I make the hard choice to sell off some of my cards to buy more. As such, I have only two transactions on here (both sales) and one piece of bad behavior, which absolutely no one would even know about unless I mentioned it. However, since I'm honest, I'll start there. I snapped at a guy who inquired on a lot last night in a PM. I shouldn't have and I apologized. I was having a rough night and won't bore you with details. (And, if he's among the 2000+ reading, you know who you are and I truly am sorry.) As for the two transactions prior to this, one was for a 53 Bowman Campanella SGC 50 and the other for an ungraded 1968 Topps Posters Mickey Mantle box cut out. In both cases, the buyers sought me out with their bid - essentially setting the price - and I agreed. I guess it won't be hard to figure out who bought what now will it.

So, here's the original lot; just seems odd that it's not been posted in this thread yet. Or I just didn't see it.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

After my friend gave me a few bucks for the Pin Up and the Jay, I sold a 1956 Topps #135 card to Steven for $250. We arrived at this price because he said he'd pay 200 against my 300 offer and I suggested we could meet in the middle if he really wanted the card other wise I'll stay and hope for the best. At NO POINT was price contingent on grade; what was very important was that he be able to sell it for more money. I clearly stated I think it would grade a 3 but I am not a professional and I offer no guarantee. I packed it well (my cost) and shipped it with tracking for free (my cost). My listing was posted for all to see. I wasn't trying to get one over on anyone. Since I don't have a scanner, I take a picture with my phone. So, knowing the picture sucks and is often not even facing the right direction because I can't even post it right, I do what most people don't and provided an accurate description. Every flaw you see on that card is in the description. Had he asked for more pictures, he'd have gotten more cell phone shots so I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

Now, today I get an email at 10 am, wherein a full refund was demanded and the reason given was 'I am not going to make enough money flipping this card.' I do not believe that to be valid reason and told him, quite politely, to merely sell the card for $250 and he'd have his money back. Since that is around what I paid, I think he can get it too with no problem. I walk away from my computer and go about my day, head off to a retirement party and get home about two hours ago to find...this thread and two other messages.

The first message basically says, I am giving you one hour to respond to this message before I go trash your reputation. The second is I am going to now tarnish your reputation. Shortly thereafter, this thread is created.

To sum up, he got no response to an arbitrary deadline he set for that I was unaware of and then proceeded to create this thread - about which I could not care less - in an attempt to bully me and publicly shame me into giving him a refund.

So here's my response to this thread now that the truth has been told:

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to thank.

As for the peanut gallery, have at it guys. Team Steve or Team Tim? Somebody print some T-shirts up!

If any moderator wants to verify this info, PM me and I'll give you my log on and password information and you can check every word of what I have said. Steven, please don't ever contact me again and good luck in your trade up.

[Bpm0014]

The right thing to do is issue a refund. No questions asked. Although it is caveat emptor here, this board is extremely successful because all of us can buy and sell things KNOWING that there is an unwritten code of honor that the deal will go thru and all parties will be happy.

By not issuing a refund (regardless of the reason), you have single handedly jeapordized everything that this board stands for. I have completed too numerous to count deals on here and I always felt safe sending hundreds (or at times thousands) of dollars. I am not being dramatic, but I no longer feel secure. None of us can. Do the right thing and issue a refund. Or you should be banned for life. Regardless of whether who is right or who is wrong.

[gnaz01]

Tim,

If the OP bought the card under the assumption that "it could be a 3" and it clearly isn't, you are at fault.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

OK, so he was definitely a little quick with the thread, but I HATE when guys say "any chance of reaching an agreement is now dead" That's a total copout. Either you'll give a refund or you won't. Clearly you won't. There is no way I can conscience that. As with most situations both parties bear some blame, but ultimately it can be made right at no loss (hit him up for shipping if you like) so what GOOD reason can you have for not issuing a refund???

[slipk1068]

He may be wrong for starting a thread before giving you adequate time to respond to his refund request, but you are WAY wrong for not issuing a refund. That card not a 3. We like to feel safe around here. A refund should be issued or you should be banned.

[rainier2004]

I guess I am surprised by some responses on here. I would agree that Tim needs to issue a refund though.

What surprises me is that everyone is jumping on the claim the Tim said it would grade a 3. Man, I don't even listen to someone when they say stuff like that as I will determine what it would grade, not someone else if I am buying.

So would the deal have been acceptable if Tim hadn't said "it should grade a 3"?

[slipk1068]

Interesting. I feel if he hadn't mentioned grading a 3, the buyer wouldn't be entitled to a refund but should still get one. This isn't the ebay jungle. I like to believe BST is somewhat safer. Even on ebay, the buyer would be able to file a claim through paypal and likely get a refund.

If I was the seller I would be angry that this was taken public before I had a chance to make it right. VERY angry. My initial reaction would probably be the same or similar to the seller. But if I put myself in the buyer's shoes, the card was not described properly and the pic was at best, poor quality. As the buyer, I might even think the pic was deceptive. Refund less whatever he is out for shipping seems like the right thing to do.

[sterlingfox]

I agree that a refund should be issued minus the shipping, or there should be an immediate ban. I wouldn't feel safe anymore in the BST, otherwise.

[Gradedcardman]

First off, I am quite impressed with the number of people who offer their opinion of a private transaction that happened between two members having heard one side of the story. I think 53 posts and 2000+ views is pretty amazing. What you will hear from me is what actually happened. You are aware of some of what has been said so far (at least by me, though not by Steven). I have every message Steven sent to me, as well - time stamped. None will be posted publicly simply because I don't think that is good etiquette or precedent for board members. However, I will paraphrase. Form your own opinions.

My name is Tim Begley - this is the rule, I believe, right? Post your full name. I'm not quite positive you have to when defending your reputation as opposed to attacking another's but I will since I have nothing to hide.

So here's some relevant information on me. First, I have no professional experience as a seller, dealer, auctioneer, graded or manufacturer of baseball cards. Occasionally, I make the hard choice to sell off some of my cards to buy more. As such, I have only two transactions on here (both sales) and one piece of bad behavior, which absolutely no one would even know about unless I mentioned it. However, since I'm honest, I'll start there. I snapped at a guy who inquired on a lot last night in a PM. I shouldn't have and I apologized. I was having a rough night and won't bore you with details. (And, if he's among the 2000+ reading, you know who you are and I truly am sorry.) As for the two transactions prior to this, one was for a 53 Bowman Campanella SGC 50 and the other for an ungraded 1968 Topps Posters Mickey Mantle box cut out. In both cases, the buyers sought me out with their bid - essentially setting the price - and I agreed. I guess it won't be hard to figure out who bought what now will it.

So, here's the original lot; just seems odd that it's not been posted in this thread yet. Or I just didn't see it.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

After my friend gave me a few bucks for the Pin Up and the Jay, I sold a 1956 Topps #135 card to Steven for $250. We arrived at this price because he said he'd pay 200 against my 300 offer and I suggested we could meet in the middle if he really wanted the card other wise I'll stay and hope for the best. At NO POINT was price contingent on grade; what was very important was that he be able to sell it for more money. I clearly stated I think it would grade a 3 but I am not a professional and I offer no guarantee. I packed it well (my cost) and shipped it with tracking for free (my cost). My listing was posted for all to see. I wasn't trying to get one over on anyone. Since I don't have a scanner, I take a picture with my phone. So, knowing the picture sucks and is often not even facing the right direction because I can't even post it right, I do what most people don't and provided an accurate description. Every flaw you see on that card is in the description. Had he asked for more pictures, he'd have gotten more cell phone shots so I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

Now, today I get an email at 10 am, wherein a full refund was demanded and the reason given was 'I am not going to make enough money flipping this card.' I do not believe that to be valid reason and told him, quite politely, to merely sell the card for $250 and he'd have his money back. Since that is around what I paid, I think he can get it too with no problem. I walk away from my computer and go about my day, head off to a retirement party and get home about two hours ago to find...this thread and two other messages.

The first message basically says, I am giving you one hour to respond to this message before I go trash your reputation. The second is I am going to now tarnish your reputation. Shortly thereafter, this thread is created.

To sum up, he got no response to an arbitrary deadline he set for that I was unaware of and then proceeded to create this thread - about which I could not care less - in an attempt to bully me and publicly shame me into giving him a refund.

So here's my response to this thread now that the truth has been told:

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to thank.

As for the peanut gallery, have at it guys. Team Steve or Team Tim? Somebody print some T-shirts up!

If any moderator wants to verify this info, PM me and I'll give you my log on and password information and you can check every word of what I have said. Steven, please don't ever contact me again and good luck in your trade up.


Did the card get sent for grading or again was it an assumption it would not grade a 3. Again the real world means do your due diligence and let the chips fall where they may. Shit happens. Move on.

[seablaster]

So would the deal have been acceptable if Tim hadn't said "it should grade a 3"?

I'd be inclined to say yes.

The seller indicated that he is not a professional and offers no guarantee. That is perfectly fine, but then I wouldn't make a prediction as to what the card would possibly grade. I would suggest posting clear, accurate scans and allow potential buyers to make their own determination.

Perhaps it is a question of degrees. To me, I believe that card would grade a 1.5. That is enough standard deviations away from a 3 where I think a potential recipient would be unhappy with the transaction.

I'd also agree that the seller had little time to respond before drastic action was taken by the creation of this thread.

[Paul S]

Two complete rookies, one a seller and the other a buyer, both way in over their respective heads in what would normally be the easiest of transactions. One should learn how to provide a decent representation of their product in both images and words, and the other undertaking a huge project by having to resort to a ton of help when nothing goes as exactly planned. Issue a refund and be done with it. Then each take a step back until they know the simplest of academics. - P. S(p)ector

[RedsFan1941]

Two complete rookies, one a seller and the other a buyer, both way in over their respective heads in what would normally be the easiest of transactions. One should learn how to provide a decent representation of their product in both images and words, and the other undertaking a huge project by having to resort to a ton of help when nothing goes as exactly planned. Issue a refund and be done with it. Then each take a step back until they know the simplest of academics. - P. S(p)ector

^^^^^^^^^

perfectly stated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leon]

I have to agree. While I don't want to get involved in deals on the BST, I don't like the way this deal was handled, at all. The description was wrong and the pictures were small. The flippant last response was all I could take.
Tim (hi Tim) will give a refund or not be on the BST any longer. This board is not "business as usual". If you give a poor (wrong) description and tiny pics that don't show the defects, well then you should give a timely refund or go someplace that is "business as usual." This needs to be a place where you can count on a friendly and good transaction, or if there is a problem and it's addressed right away, it should be taken care of fairly. (and I agree the seller should have been given a bit more time to deal with it, but a return is warranted regardless)

ps...I think it was the "there are winners and losers" comment that really threw me. Really? Winners and losers on our BST? No, not.


The right thing to do is issue a refund. No questions asked. Although it is caveat emptor here, this board is extremely successful because all of us can buy and sell things KNOWING that there is an unwritten code of honor that the deal will go thru and all parties will be happy.

By not issuing a refund (regardless of the reason), you have single handedly jeapordized everything that this board stands for. I have completed too numerous to count deals on here and I always felt safe sending hundreds (or at times thousands) of dollars. I am not being dramatic, but I no longer feel secure. None of us can. Do the right thing and issue a refund. Or you should be banned for life. Regardless of whether who is right or who is wrong.

[PhillipAbbott79]

It's just like handing someone cash so unless you can go yank it back out of his bank account, you're sunk.

I've done a few transactions on here both online and locally and have had nothing but success, but I also made sure to CYA and check out who I was dealing with as some of those were pretty high-dollar transactions.

I don't think the OP necessarily got scammed, but I think the seller may have over-sold the card's condition and the OP kinda trusted the guy too much and should have either gotten better pictures/scans or stayed away from the deal altogether. Regardless, there was some mis-information and as long as the seller isn't out any money, he should do a refund to the OP and all involved just call it a wash and move on.

You should link a visa debit card to PayPal, then you have recourse through your bank, and through visa, if your bank will not help you. That is why they charge the interest they do.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Here you go.



Response:

I will send it in myself if I don't get my price and I think it will be a 3 as I stated. Great eye appeal and it's from my personal collection where VG is my baseline. I already sent in my other 3 and it came back a 3. While I don't do this for a living and won't offer any guarantees, I think if I hang at 300 a collector will get it for pretty close to the price. I'll keep 275 offered to you if you change your mind. Heck, if you'll really pay tonight, 250. Good til 12pm EST.

No matter what, good luck to you. I also have 2 Red Hearts as well, one an SGC 4 and one nicer but ungraded. Would consider a straight sale as well at the right price.

(Yes I realize upon reading this that the no guarantees should have been a HUGE red flag, however he seemed knowledgeable as I took him at his word with the other 3 cards he got graded)




Here is what I got in the mail today...



Upon receiving the card I was very very disappointed.

I immediately sent him a message (don't have my sent messages) along the lines of..

Hello,

Just got the card and I must say I am disappointed. You told me this was VG but it is definitely NOT VG. I do not want any hard feelings, however I would like a refund due to the fact that this card is not as was described to me. Please get back to me asap.



His response:

Stephen,

There will be no refund. The card was well described we negotiated and you agreed to a price.

You will have no problem selling it at $250 to get out of the transaction yourself.

Have a good one,

Tim




I have since written to him 2 more times explaining I would rather not go to the board, and is $250 really worth ruining his reputation with the board over. No answer.

Although the motto on the BST is buyer beware, I was assuming satisfaction guaranteed as it always should be. No one is here to hurt someone else (or I thought).

His user ID is TimBegs.


Photos will be loaded soon.



The guy used a few 'seller tactic's favorites that i reference in other threads:

1. Fake Purpose: Usually its for medical bills or something but in this case its for the wife's kitchen countertops

2. From Personal Collection


Why not just refund the card. But man, thats why graded cards make sense. There would be soooo many differences of opinion of what a VG, or G card is.

I think a Seller can just say 'NO RETURNS EVER' right up front to never worry about buyers remorse as well..

either way it does look Eyeonvintage has issues with more than just one guy on net54..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Instead of typing out that treatise justifying yourself, you should have just said, I'm new here, I didn't understand the way this community works, I'll issue the refund but I won't deal with Stephen again.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'd be inclined to say yes.

The seller indicated that he is not a professional and offers no guarantee. That is perfectly fine, but then I wouldn't make a prediction as to what the card would possibly grade. I would suggest posting clear, accurate scans and allow potential buyers to make their own determination.

Perhaps it is a question of degrees. To me, I believe that card would grade a 1.5. That is enough standard deviations away from a 3 where I think a potential recipient would be unhappy with the transaction.

I'd also agree that the seller had little time to respond before drastic action was taken by the creation of this thread.

I still surprised when people predict a half grade. Half grades occur so infrequently compared to a base grade . I would say a 1 or 2 range and not say 1.5

sometimes buyers beg for the seller to give an estimate of the grade when the seller says hes not a professional grader. So if the buyer begs and begs and the seller says, i guess it could be a 3....would the buyer also be entitled to a refund for the seller being so way off..

[Leon]

I think a Seller can just say 'NO RETURNS EVER' right up front to never worry about buyers remorse as well..

..

If I see that comment on our BST the person making it will no longer be there.


.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If I see that comment on our BST the person making it will no longer be there.


.

Im saying if he put that in their email correspondence in general...whether on net54 or outside as a general business practice....probably would be bad business but there may be some sellers that say its unfair if a buyer just has buyers remorse and returns a card for no real reason even though extremely clear scans, very accurate description etc etc.. (which didnt happen in this case)

[Edwolf1963]

I think it was the "there are winners and losers" comment that really threw me. Really?

This one kind of threw me a bit as well. Good deals are when both sides are happy/satisfied (IMO). Understanding all the emotion that is involved here - POV from each side, what started, who said what, who's right, etc. - I keep coming back to this - - was it/is it really worth all of this to not just refund a $250 card (you feel confident in reselling) and move on?

[bobbyw8469]

The card does NOT look like a '3'. On a GOOD day, I can see the card getting a "2", but it might not even bring VCP average at that level. The seller DID disclose all the issues with the card. I am in the camp that DOES NOT call a spider wrinkle a crease. As a matter of fact, a good card doctor (which I am not) can get those out. For BOTH parties...the buyer, next time ask for better scans. For the seller....offer a better scan...and be honest with the evaluation. That would prevent issues like this from arising. Carry on.

[1952boyntoncollector]

OK, so he was definitely a little quick with the thread, but I HATE when guys say "any chance of reaching an agreement is now dead" That's a total copout. Either you'll give a refund or you won't. Clearly you won't. There is no way I can conscience that. As with most situations both parties bear some blame, but ultimately it can be made right at no loss (hit him up for shipping if you like) so what GOOD reason can you have for not issuing a refund???


Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to than




Right we had that situation occur previousuly the old 'i would of given you a refund but because of your attitude or whatever reason i am not now'

If somebody says that it means they never were going to give a refund. I do agree that it was too quick to trash somebody on a thread after a quick deadline. However if i was the seller i would of said, Refund given and by the way i wasonly emailed a request for a refund it appears 3 hours ago and i just read my email only to find out i am being trashed in 3 hours.

I have refunded the money like i would have even before a trashy thread was made against me had i been given more than an hour to receive the email etc.....

[swarmee]

I still surprised when people predict a half grade. Half grades occur so infrequently compared to a base grade . I would say a 1 or 2 range and not say 1.5

Because 1.5 is not a half grade. It is a FAIR card. Fair is a standard way of assessing a raw card. For other ranges, you can see a card that normally looks like a 6 due to corner wear or surface issue, but might predict a 6.5 due to exact centering on a normally poorly centered issue.
As to this card, I think Fair is a reasonable assessment of this card, and neither side did the right thing. eBay would have suspended EYECOLLECT for feedback extortion, but they would have also forced a return for Item Not As Described.

[rats60]

If I see that comment on our BST the person making it will no longer be there.


.

I just have one question. If the no questions asked returns are going to be the policy, is the buyer or seller going to be responsible for shipping?

[bnorth]

I just have one question. If the no questions asked returns are going to be the policy, is the buyer or seller going to be responsible for shipping?

I also recently went through this same exact thing with another member. I was traded a card that was supposed to be VG and when I received it the card was not even close to VG. We worked it out like adults thought and even made another trade so no extra shipping was involved for either of us.:)

Normally I would say the person returning the card pays to ship it back.

[Leon]

Where does it say, or when has anyone ever said, there would be a no questions asked return policy here? Are you serious? As I obviously wasn't clear, that is NOT the policy and never will be. This extraordinary, mandated return is being mandated for the reasons already stated. And the seller (hi Tim and this isn't personal) can also just leave and not do anything. It's America....

Specifically I wouldn't want to see a NO RETURNS EVER message in a BST listing here. If people do it other places that is their business. It is not the attitude that is wanted here.

I just have one question. If the no questions asked returns are going to be the policy, is the buyer or seller going to be responsible for shipping?

[Sean1125]

FWIW I asked this member how much for a lot of cards he offered me and he exploded on me for simply asking a price.

Originally Posted by Sean1125
What is your group price?

Yesterday, 01:12 AM
Timbegs

Default Re: 1953 Bowman Colow w BOTH MANTLES
Is this a joke? I showed you the cards; make an offer or don't. Very simple.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person. I thought you said you buy cards. If not, do you know anyone who does?

I'm looking for a bid. I don't do this for a living; I am just trying to raise some funds to surprise my wife with some new countertops in the kitchen. So again, let me know if you have a bid and are a card buyer. Or can direct to me to a person who might put a price on them rather than answer questions with questions. An actual card buyer.

I'm not giving them away for nothing and will be listing all 23 cards as one lot on eBay in a few hours. I figured I would give SOMEONE from this board a chance to get a good deal first but I've had no takers and not one offer despite giving net54 a decent head start.

So if you have a price where you'll buy them, you should show it. I will counter if I don't just hit the bid. The sooner, the better. I will take what I can get and these should draw interest and I imagine I'll sell them by tonight the latest on eBay as I need the money.

I thought people would at least make some kind of offer on this board. I am kind of surprised, honestly.

Anyway, if I made a mistake and you don't buy cards, I apologize. If you buy cards please make an offer.

Thanks
Tim


I let him know I felt his response was rude and unwarranted. He did apologize after the fact.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL.
Cues up Cyndi Lauper.

[1952boyntoncollector]

FWIW I asked this member how much for a lot of cards he offered me and he exploded on me for simply asking a price.

Originally Posted by Sean1125
What is your group price?

Yesterday, 01:12 AM
Timbegs

Default Re: 1953 Bowman Colow w BOTH MANTLES
Is this a joke? I showed you the cards; make an offer or don't. Very simple.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person. I thought you said you buy cards. If not, do you know anyone who does?

I'm looking for a bid. I don't do this for a living; I am just trying to raise some funds to surprise my wife with some new countertops in the kitchen. So again, let me know if you have a bid and are a card buyer. Or can direct to me to a person who might put a price on them rather than answer questions with questions. An actual card buyer.

I'm not giving them away for nothing and will be listing all 23 cards as one lot on eBay in a few hours. I figured I would give SOMEONE from this board a chance to get a good deal first but I've had no takers and not one offer despite giving net54 a decent head start.

So if you have a price where you'll buy them, you should show it. I will counter if I don't just hit the bid. The sooner, the better. I will take what I can get and these should draw interest and I imagine I'll sell them by tonight the latest on eBay as I need the money.

I thought people would at least make some kind of offer on this board. I am kind of surprised, honestly.

Anyway, if I made a mistake and you don't buy cards, I apologize. If you buy cards please make an offer.

Thanks
Tim


I let him know I felt his response was rude and unwarranted. He did apologize after the fact.



When a seller says he is giving a good deal, but also says he doesnt sell cards for a living than I am not sure how he knows what a good deal is. Plus, the fact nobody was willing to pay his price would seem he does not know how to price.

I think he should of asked whether you buy cards to sell them later at a loss....you could of said no to that

Given what I have read from this seller and buyer-EYEON in the earlier transaction that is subject to the thread, it was really the wrong seller for the wrong buyer.... if they made 3 deals, SOMETHING bad would of happened but it occurred on the first deal.


Its sort of like when drivers pick up hitchhikers in shady areas. I was told never to pick up any hitchhikers because hitchhikers can be dangerous. I was also told never to accept a random ride from someone because the drivers can be dangerous. Thus you have dangerous drivers picking up dangerous hitchhikers. Its an issue of who will take out the knife first i guess. Sooner or later SOMETHING bad will happen.

[timzcardz]

FWIW I asked this member how much for a lot of cards he offered me and he exploded on me for simply asking a price.

Originally Posted by Sean1125
What is your group price?

Yesterday, 01:12 AM
Timbegs

Default Re: 1953 Bowman Colow w BOTH MANTLES
Is this a joke? I showed you the cards; make an offer or don't. Very simple.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person. I thought you said you buy cards. If not, do you know anyone who does?
.
.
.
.
.

That is hysterical!

I'm not sure I can even count how many times someone who is offering something for sale has given me a similar response when I ask how much.

Always happens to me at card shows. I see something that piques my interest, inquire about the price and get a response like "Gee, I don;t don;t know. What do you think it's worth?"

Mind boggling.

[bobbyw8469]

FWIW I asked this member how much for a lot of cards he offered me and he exploded on me for simply asking a price.

Originally Posted by Sean1125
What is your group price?

Yesterday, 01:12 AM
Timbegs

Default Re: 1953 Bowman Colow w BOTH MANTLES
Is this a joke? I showed you the cards; make an offer or don't. Very simple.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person. I thought you said you buy cards. If not, do you know anyone who does?

I'm looking for a bid. I don't do this for a living; I am just trying to raise some funds to surprise my wife with some new countertops in the kitchen. So again, let me know if you have a bid and are a card buyer. Or can direct to me to a person who might put a price on them rather than answer questions with questions. An actual card buyer.

I'm not giving them away for nothing and will be listing all 23 cards as one lot on eBay in a few hours. I figured I would give SOMEONE from this board a chance to get a good deal first but I've had no takers and not one offer despite giving net54 a decent head start.

So if you have a price where you'll buy them, you should show it. I will counter if I don't just hit the bid. The sooner, the better. I will take what I can get and these should draw interest and I imagine I'll sell them by tonight the latest on eBay as I need the money.

I thought people would at least make some kind of offer on this board. I am kind of surprised, honestly.

Anyway, if I made a mistake and you don't buy cards, I apologize. If you buy cards please make an offer.

Thanks
Tim




I let him know I felt his response was rude and unwarranted. He did apologize after the fact.


Wow.....alrighty then.

[bobbyw8469]

That is hysterical!

I'm not sure I can even count how many times someone who is offering something for sale has given me a similar response when I ask how much.

Always happens to me at card shows. I see something that piques my interest, inquire about the price and get a response like "Gee, I don;t don;t know. What do you think it's worth?"

Mind boggling.

I dont know what kind of card shows you go to, but I have never had that response.

[hcv123]

Instead of typing out that treatise justifying yourself, you should have just said, I'm new here, I didn't understand the way this community works, I'll issue the refund but I won't deal with Stephen again.

So is seller banned yet?

[Fred]

Quick question -

Did the buyer ever ask the seller about a return policy?

If the seller is stating the truth about the buyer then I believe that providing an hour to respond to an email message is a bit of an ambitious request. Sometimes I go days without checking my personal email. :eek:

[toledo_mudhen]

OK then.... I read all 9 pages of thread but still not sure why. Kinda like watchin a train wreck I guess.

FWIW - the SGC Grading scale - I could see how one might call it a 2 (and possibly a 3)

40 VG 3 90/10 or better centering, corners more rounded--but not excessive, stronger creasing may exist. Poorer focus, registration, and discoloration, and staining are more noticeable.

30 GOOD 2 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits one or more of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tear, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss.

20 FAIR 1.5 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits several of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, a small portion of the card may be missing.

10 POOR 1 This card usually exhibits many of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, small portions of the card may be missing.

[pokerplyr80]

I agree this seller should be banned. This is not the way we should do business here. But am I the only one who thinks the buyer caused a big part of the problem? I won't be able to flip this for enough of a profit is a very stupid thing to say when asking for a refund. It really seems like they're both clueless to me and I would not consider doing business with either one.

[orly57]

Pardon me for not putting on my Team Steven jersey. Both sides are wrong. Tim should refund the money. There is no question about that. This isn't eBay. We are a group of collectors who rely on this being our one safe-haven against these kind of things. If you don't know about grading, then don't claim it is a 3. You can't have it both ways and use an estimated grade as a selling-point, and then use your ignorance of grading as a defense after the fact.
Now a hypothetical question for Steven. You buy a raw card that the seller thought was VG, and send it to grade. The card comes back a 6. Would you send the seller a check for the difference? You can't have it both ways either. You took a risk on a raw card, and what bothers me most is that your chief complaint is that YOU CANT FLIP IT FOR A PROFIT! Not that you feel the card isn't worth what you paid, but rather that you can't make a profit on it!
This thread is just annoying on so many levels.

[Leon]

Tim has PM'd, asked for his account to be deleted, and said he isn't going to refund any money to Stephen. Here is my response....

Hi Tim
We don't delete accounts generally speaking.
That being said I will honor your wish and you have been banned. It was definitely your choice. Happy collecting,
LL

.

[Stonepony]

This whole thing kinda stinks. The " give me a refund or I'm going to trash your reputation on the Net54 forum"- left me with the worst taste of all of it.

[jb217676]

This whole thing kinda stinks. The " give me a refund or I'm going to trash your reputation on the Net54 forum"- left me with the worst taste of all of it.

I agree, I feel some people might think twice about making deals with him if it could lead to a thread like this in the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pardon me for not putting on my Team Steven jersey. Both sides are wrong. Tim should refund the money. There is no question about that. This isn't eBay. We are a group of collectors who rely on this being our one safe-haven against these kind of things. If you don't know about grading, then don't claim it is a 3. You can't have it both ways and use an estimated grade as a selling-point, and then use your ignorance of grading as a defense after the fact.
Now a hypothetical question for Steven. You buy a raw card that the seller thought was VG, and send it to grade. The card comes back a 6. Would you send the seller a check for the difference? You can't have it both ways either. You took a risk on a raw card, and what bothers me most is that your chief complaint is that YOU CANT FLIP IT FOR A PROFIT! Not that you feel the card isn't worth what you paid, but rather that you can't make a profit on it!
This thread is just annoying on so many levels.

Someone buying to flip is as entitled to be happy with a card, and to receive accurate disclosures, as someone buying for his collection. I don't see why it makes a difference. Not that I am on Team Steven either, I don't think he handled this particularly well, but he's young I think and will learn.

[orly57]

What I meant, Peter, is that inherent in that statement is the idea that he can get his money back FROM ANOTHER BUYER, but not make a profit. This would mean (gasp) that he paid fair market value for it.

[Leon]

If you buy something from me and I misrepresented it,
intentionally or unintentionally, don't you think you deserve a timely refund?

What I meant, Peter, is that inherent in that statement is the idea that he can get his money back, but not make a profit. This would mean (gasp) that he paid fair market value for it.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I agree, I feel some people might think twice about making deals with him if it could lead to a thread like this in the future.

Ok I think a lot of you are listening to what he said seriously when it's not the case.

1. I politely asked for a refund

2. He said no. (Answered in less than 10 mins)

3. I said I don't want to but I will take it to the board. Gave him a hour to get back to me ( no answer, after he admits reading it in that time frame) .

4. I then contacted him again say please let's settle this as the last thing I wanna do is make the thread. ( no answer)

5. Then I contacted him again!! ( no answer)

In total I gave him 4 hours almost to rectify the issue. I know he always answers quick as every correspondence we've ever had was quick.

6. I then posted and deleted. Feeling bad and still wanting to give him a chance.


Those are facts so please don't get the picture of me rushing him to a decision. I just felt robbed.

[orly57]

If you buy something from me and I misrepresented it,
intentionally or unintentionally, don't you think you deserve a timely refund?

Please see the ENTIRE FIRST PARAGRAPH of my initial post. The fact that I am annoyed by his reasoning doesn't mean I don't think he should get his money back.

[mattjc1983]

I am always suspicious if a seller posts paypal ff only in their listing. Unless I know a seller or someone I do know vouches for him I send funds pp goods to avoid situations like this. Especially with someone who just signed up to this site 2 months ago. I believe there might still be a way to file a PayPal claim if you did send ff, but I have never tried this personally.


What is the purpose of asking for friends and family? If the buyer asks to pay friends and family as part of getting a lower price from a seller, that's one thing, but it does seem strange when a seller requests it. I'm sure the seller is just trying to get the best price he can but it can be construed as trying to remove protections for the buyer.

The better (and less shady approach) that I see and like is to say "This is what I want to get out of the card so this is the PP F&F price, but you are of course welcome to pay G&S if you cover the fees."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Leon]

I did.
Please see the ENTIRE FIRST PARAGRAPH of my initial post.

[HRBAKER]

Well the answer is FREE and easy access to the buyer's payment.
Obviously the way this has played out I would guess they are neither friends or family at this point.

[Paul S]

Another answer is to not have to declare it as income.

[Bored5000]

I don't think either side covered themselves in glory with this transaction. It seems like each side was looking to "get over" on the other one. That card would not grade as a "3" but the buyer didn't pay market rate for a "3," either.

VCP shows that a PSA "3" for a '56 Mantle is $374.36. Of the last 24 PSA 3 sales of the card, there isn't a single sale under $315.00. For SGC, the average sale price for a "3" is $337.13.

The buyer should be refunded, but it should raise some red flags when a raw card is priced 25-30 percent under VCP.

What a trainwreck over what really isn't a lot of money.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I don't think either side covered themselves in glory with this transaction. It seems like each side was looking to "get over" on the other one. That card would not grade as a "3" but the buyer didn't pay market rate for a "3," either.

VCP shows that a PSA "3" for a '56 Mantle is $374.36. Of the last 24 PSA 3 sales of the card, there isn't a single sale under $315.00. For SGC, the average sale price for a "3" is $337.13.

The buyer should be refunded, but it should raise some red flags when a raw card is priced 25-30 percent under VCP.

What a trainwreck over what really isn't a lot of money.

I wasn't looking to get over on anyone. My first message stated my intention. I wanted to make a few bucks on it. Wasn't lieinn to the guy. And I agree, it may not be a lot of money, but shouldn't this community be protected?

[Bored5000]

I wasn't looking to get over on anyone. My first message stated my intention. I wanted to make a few bucks on it. Wasn't lieinn to the guy. And I agree, it may not be a lot of money, but shouldn't this community be protected?

That is why I said you should get a refund. But a true "3" is not a $250 card. That pretty much means looking to get over on someone to me.

The seller misrepresented the condition, and you should get a refund because of that; the price you paid wasn't 30 percent under VCP. Not to be flippant, but a 30 percent discount off of VCP falls into the "If something looks too good to be true..." category, IMO.

[njdunkin1]

The right thing to do is issue a refund. No questions asked. Although it is caveat emptor here, this board is extremely successful because all of us can buy and sell things KNOWING that there is an unwritten code of honor that the deal will go thru and all parties will be happy.




I read through the eleven pages thus far, and I find myself agreeing with your assessment. We all occasionally slip up and make mistakes, professionally and day-to-day. I flubbed up my first transaction on this board--however, I apologized and tried my best to make things right with the seller. While the transaction didn't go as we both had originally planned, we moved on and we both continue on N54 as businessmen and fellow collectors to this day.
This is why I feel this transaction didn't go through and left a bad taste in many mouths--neither the buyer nor the seller provided any "give"; it was all "take". While this can show what collecting is like to some people in the real world, it isn't an accurate representation of N54, which, from my experience, has been a board where the majority of collectors try to make deals which leave both parties as winners.

-NJ Dunkin

[bobbyw8469]

I agree with what someone else said. That whole transaction just screams trouble. A buyer looking to take advantage of a seller, and a seller looking to take advantage of a buyer. Both parties looking to shark the other one. What happened to the days where a trade was done that could make both parties feel good?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I agree with what someone else said. That whole transaction just screams trouble. A buyer looking to take advantage of a seller, and a seller looking to take advantage of a buyer. Both parties looking to shark the other one. What happened to the days where a trade was done that could make both parties feel good?


Tim B
Banned

Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 126
Default Enjoy it - this will be my only post



The transaction was doomed in a lot of ways. We have a buyer thats part of the 'im quitting the net54 board' club dealing with a 'this is my last post on net54' club........those are two clubs that shouldnt be trading cards....like the Sharks and the Jets..


P.S. "Im leaving the hobby club' could also be tough club to trade with especially (not saying all but a red flag) when they havent left the hobby and continue to be very very active....and there is also the 'i dont care if i am banned by saying...." club as well.

[dclarkraiders]

I agree with what someone else said. That whole transaction just screams trouble. A buyer looking to take advantage of a seller, and a seller looking to take advantage of a buyer. Both parties looking to shark the other one. What happened to the days where a trade was done that could make both parties feel good?

+1

[timzcardz]

I don't see the problem.

Why doesn't he ultimately trade it up for a "3"?

:D

[Stonepony]

I don't see the problem.

Why doesn't he ultimately trade it up for a "3"?

:D

Yes....I laughed

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I'm confused. Should I have not said anything and let it go? Then have him rip someone else off? Someone else already showed a nasty message he left them. I was upset and trying to protect others at the same time. Now I'm getting crucified. In my heart I know I did the right thing.

[Stonepony]

I say we all move on

[JollyElm]

For what it's worth, in my mind this Stephen guy is nothing more than Adrian 2.0.

And perhaps he should just send the '56 Mantle to PWCC. Not only will it miraculously become a 3, it'll end up in a 7 slab.

[Sean]

For what it's worth, in my mind this Stephen guy is nothing more than Adrian 2.0.

And perhaps he should just send the '56 Mantle to PWCC. Not only will it miraculously become a 3, it'll end up in a 7 slab.

Or sell it to Battlefield. She could really photoshop it, and we can discuss it here once a month when she continually resells it.

[Sean]

Tim has PM'd, asked for his account to be deleted, and said he isn't going to refund any money to Stephen. Here is my response....

Hi Tim
We don't delete accounts generally speaking.
That being said I will honor your wish and you have been banned. It was definitely your choice. Happy collecting,
LL

.

It's hard to believe that someone's reputation means so little to them that they would do this over a couple hundred dollars.

[Snapolit1]

It's hard to believe that someone's reputation means so little to them that they would do this over a couple hundred dollars.

When your wife says she has to get the kitchen redone . . . well, we've all been there . . . .

[Sean]

When your wife says she has to get the kitchen redone . . . well, we've all been there . . . .

I've never been married, so maybe that's why I have trouble understanding. :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

For what it's worth, in my mind this Stephen guy is nothing more than Adrian 2.0.

And perhaps he should just send the '56 Mantle to PWCC. Not only will it miraculously become a 3, it'll end up in a 7 slab.

LOL. Good one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's hard to believe that someone's reputation means so little to them that they would do this over a couple hundred dollars.

Not even as he would have had the card back and it obviously has some value, being a Mantle. Loser.

[bnorth]

When your wife says she has to get the kitchen redone . . . well, we've all been there . . . .

LOL, that is so true. I have learned 2 things from 19 years of marriage. 1) If she asks you to do something, 99.99% of the time it is easiest to shut up and do it. 2) It is way easier to get forgiven than permission.:D

[HRBAKER]

Kitchens are expensive but it's cheaper to keep her.

[Republicaninmass]

He said he wanted to pay a "2" price initially


Vcp psa 2 average 273
Less grading, and less ebay pp fees and you only paid 250?

Just cause "it ain't a three" you still paid for a 2 as you requested and was obviously how you felt it would grade


Edited to add below:



"Message #2

(I do not have a sent mailbox set up apparently) so it went something like...

I am offering you a price based on a 2 not a 3"

[swarmee]

But you never offer full VCP for a raw card. I normally don't even pay half on raw cards based on what I expect them to grade. I know you're nitpicking Stephen, but for a raw Mantle with creases, I would have never paid that much. But then, I have no problem waiting for the right cards/prices to come around.

[Republicaninmass]

But you never offer full VCP for a raw card. I normally don't even pay half on raw cards based on what I expect them to grade. I know you're nitpicking Stephen, but for a raw Mantle with creases, I would have never paid that much. But then, I have no problem waiting for the right cards/prices to come around.


On the other side of the cpin, If you are trying to make a few bucks, you have to take risks and strike quickly

[CMIZ5290]

LOL. Good one.

The Ultimate throw up.....Will this please go away, what a freaking joke....

[swarmee]

On the other side of the cpin, If you are trying to make a few bucks, you have to take risks and strike quickly

Yeah, I lost $100 on a Johnny Manziel card once. That loser... ;-)
The dead guys can't disappoint you by being cut by Browns, at least.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When your wife says she has to get the kitchen redone . . . well, we've all been there . . . .

Well he lost an avenue to sell cards to get the kitchen redone....but for $250...maybe he is upgrading paper mache...to cardboard....at least its an upgrade and will remind him of the cardboard he sold

[frankbmd]

Please retitle thread

"ADRIAN vs ADRIAN"

(rated VG 1(-)3)

featuring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNANgFCYpk

[Huysmans]

I wasn't looking to get over on anyone. My first message stated my intention. I wanted to make a few bucks on it. Wasn't lieinn to the guy. And I agree, it may not be a lot of money, but shouldn't this community be protected?

Others are protected... By their knowledge of the hobby, and by not having a desire to grab something cheaply off of others to make a quick buck.

And you stated your intention... So did he.
You said it yourself... He said "I THINK it will be a 3"
And "I WON'T offer any guarantees".....
You ACCEPTED those conditions making the purchase.... Right?

Is there no PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY left in the world??

Honestly Stephen, accept the position you put yourself in, and move on like a big boy...
Its a learning experience that you sorely need.

Focus on your trade up scenario, as you seem to be getting support and it looks like you could make that a reality.
Its not a huge loss to take, and considering the enthusiam you show (which I like), you'll spring back, plus you'd earn the respect of a lot of board members by just moving on.

Just my opinion Stephen, but don't let this scenario sour you.....
Everyone has transactions they regret... You'll rise above it in the end.
Take care.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Others are protected... By their knowledge of the hobby, and by not having a desire to grab something cheaply off of others to make a quick buck.

And you stated your intention... So did he.
You said it yourself... He said "I THINK it will be a 3"
And "I WON'T offer any guarantees".....
You ACCEPTED those conditions making the purchase.... Right?

Is there no PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY left in the world??

Honestly Stephen, accept the position you put yourself in, and move on like a big boy...
Its a learning experience that you sorely need.

Focus on your trade up scenario, as you seem to be getting support and it looks like you could make that a reality.
Its not a huge loss to take, and considering the enthusiam you show (which I like), you'll spring back, plus you'd earn the respect of a lot of board members by just moving on.

Just my opinion Stephen, but don't let this scenario sour you.....
Everyone has transactions they regret... You'll rise above it in the end.
Take care.

Yes but the idea is that the board should live up to a higher standard of customer service, friendliness, support, whatever you want to call it.

Clearly from Tim's listings and his response to another potential buyer, he was someone coming in to make a hit and run. Unfortunately he did just that, and the people most vulnerable to a situation like that are guys like Stephen, with a few bucks, a little knowledge, and a huge desire to get ahead.

This was absolutely NOT a case of an innocent mistake by a seller, but a calculated attempt to defraud, or at least "beat" any number of potential buyers. He came on as a complete newb to the board and posted a ton of ads immediately.

Coincidentally, one of the reasons I try and see the good in Stephen is I made at least one deal with him before his foray into more atteniton-grabbing posts. It was a good deal for both of us on a tough item. I'm no rookie, though I haven't been on n54 long, there is very little chance of someone rooking me, and even less chance of me dealing with a person who even gives me the impression of TRYING to get over on me. I came out ahead on the item, He feels he did great on it too I'm sure. But the main impression he gave me is one of enthusiasm. If he could hang out on here long enough and read widely enough those dewy spots behind his ears should dry quite nicely. as for the attention thing... :)

[Huysmans]

Yes but the idea is that the board should live up to a higher standard of customer service, friendliness, support, whatever you want to call it.

Clearly from Tim's listings and his response to another potential buyer, he was someone coming in to make a hit and run. Unfortunately he did just that, and the people most vulnerable to a situation like that are guys like Stephen, with a few bucks, a little knowledge, and a huge desire to get ahead.

This was absolutely NOT a case of an innocent mistake by a seller, but a calculated attempt to defraud, or at least "beat" any number of potential buyers. He came on as a complete newb to the board and posted a ton of ads immediately.

Coincidentally, one of the reasons I try and see the good in Stephen is I made at least one deal with him before his foray into more atteniton-grabbing posts. It was a good deal for both of us on a tough item. I'm no rookie, though I haven't been on n54 long, there is very little chance of someone rooking me, and even less chance of me dealing with a person who even gives me the impression of TRYING to get over on me. I came out ahead on the item, He feels he did great on it too I'm sure. But the main impression he gave me is one of enthusiasm. If he could hang out on here long enough and read widely enough those dewy spots behind his ears should dry quite nicely. as for the attention thing... :)

Hi there Scott,
While I agree with a lot of what you said... The seller didn't PERSUE Stephen right? He didn't force the sale. You can agree to that, no?
Stephen made an offer, and BOTH accepted? Correct? Where's the personal responsibility of the buyer??
You said "this board should live up to a higher standard"... but for just the seller?? Or both the seller AND buyer? If what you said is true and you believe it.... Stephen's "higher standard" would be accepting he made a bad judgment call.
Apparently, you seem to think it only goes one way....
I could be wrong, and if I am, I apologize, but that seems to be what your post says.
And we agree that Stephen's enthusiasm is a positive trait for both himself, and the hobby.
I wish both parties could rectify this situation amicably, maybe a partial refund would be fair?
But that's up to them.

Regards,
Brent

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm a bit of a pain in the ass. I tend to hold others to the same standards to which I adhere. In this instance we had one honest person and one dishonest person. If I am party to a dispute, and I have been, so long as the person I am dealing with is being honest, they get satisfaction. I gave a partial refund that I imagine many would have denied, or maybe granted grudgingly. My trading partner was courteous, yes, but more importantly he wasn't dishonest. If Tim had not set out to defraud, he was certainly trying to tread the line as finely as possible. To my way of thinking, yes, that relieves Stephen of a large portion of the concomitant culpability. I fail to see anything dishonest in what Stephen did. In fact he seems to get a lot of flack for his naive honesty! While I don't comport myself in the manner of either of the parties involved, I do feel that only one was unethical.

[orly57]

Alas Brent, that ship has sailed. Tim has since been banished. He will be at Home Depot early tomorrow morning, searching for a $250 backsplash for the new kitchen.

[irishdenny]

Please retitle thread

"ADRIAN vs ADRIAN"

(rated VG 1(-)3)

featuring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNANgFCYpk

Hey there Frank,

Does Feel Like it's RainiN LUCKY CHARMS iN Here :)

""" BCD deals wit PETER CHAO """

Honestly, wit ALL that's happened in the past week...
Has Any of the 2 Party's(And I Do mean Party's, These 2 have their own Disco goin on in their heads) Been Vetted Yet?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Abb.ondandolo , I Kinda Like You...
And I Loved Peter Chao :)

Only, if You Gave me "4 Hours OR ELSE"(And I'm Guessin I'm Not the Only 1)
if I Got the Message in Time?,
I'd Still Feel Like Flippin a Coin...
(We Can't Just Assume "LIFE" Didn't Just Show uP
& Yank'd us Away from the Putar...)

Howevar, I Still would of Refunded Your Money,
Hopfeully Before You Trash'd me

"RESPECT!"

FOR THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE ME, TO THOSE WHO HAVE FOLLOW'D

~ DOESN'T HURT TA ASK QUSTION'S... Before You Purchase !!! ~

"I Still Come Here to Learn!"

[bobbyw8469]

Someone else said it and I agree. Stephen paid what, $250 for a card with a VCP of $275? Not the gold mine he is looking for, but accept the lesson learned, get the card graded, sell it and move on. You might lose a little juice, but you learned a valuable lesson.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Someone else said it and I agree. Stephen paid what, $250 for a card with a VCP of $275? Not the gold mine he is looking for, but accept the lesson learned, get the card graded, sell it and move on. You might lose a little juice, but you learned a valuable lesson.

WE have also learned that if EYECOLLECT is unhappy about a transaction, he will post very quickly a negative post about the seller. I would wait at least a few days of being ignored or trying to hash it out before making a thread on net54 about my bad experience. Just because you put in your thread 'i dont want to attack anyone' doesnt mean you are not in fact doing it.

I agree that both sides should be held to a net54 standard. I wonder why someone would not just return the $250 but I wonder if a few days passed and people maybe got over their emotions a return may of been made. Probably not but at least i would hope most buyers would give a few days and not start making threads/threats the same day etc..

[Bpm0014]

Bottom line is someone bought a card, the listing was less than honest, the buyer was unhappy with it, asked for a refund, and was told to forget it.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

WE have also learned that if EYECOLLECT is unhappy about a transaction, he will post very quickly a negative post about the seller. I would wait at least a few days of being ignored or trying to hash it out before making a thread on net54 about my bad experience. Just because you put in your thread 'i dont want to attack anyone' doesnt mean you are not in fact doing it.

I agree that both sides should be held to a net54 standard. I wonder why someone would not just return the $250 but I wonder if a few days passed and people maybe got over their emotions a return may of been made. Probably not but at least i would hope most buyers would give a few days and not start making threads/threats the same day etc..

What you do not understand is this..

I contacted him a few times about other cards prior to this deal. He ALWAYS got back to me within 5-10 minutes meaning he gets emails to his phone. Then when I messaged him the first time asking for a refund he answered me within 5 minutes. Now all the sudden he doesn't have a chance to check his messages? I sent him 4 messages in total. Only one was answered AND he admits to reading my deadline message within the time period. I also waited an extra 2 hours and sent 2 messages to this guy. I'm not dumb. He was clearly ignoring me.

Then again with Jeff the sun could be out and he would tell me it's not. Why are you always like that? I agree I could have possibly handled things differently (not buying the card).


Also, I want to clear the air with the people saying I was looking to strike gold. Is a $50-$75 profit striking gold for laying out $250? VCP has this card "Graded" at $355. I was planning on buying this card and selling it raw for $275 maybe $300 (hence my offer of $200). I came up to $250 after speaking to him and him leading me to believe this card was in fact VG. I don't get how I was looking to take advantage? Should I look to make no money? He's asking $300 I offered $200. I have received a lot worse offers from some big names on here.

One example would be my Ferguson Bakery Pennant of Joe Jackson SGC A

This is a $800-1000 pennant all day. (sold for $900)

I threw it up for sale and received offers on here of $300 $350 $400 and these are from people whom are active reputable people on the site. Those offers are going for my throat lol

Why am I being ridiculed for being straight up with the guy with my intentions from the first message, looking to make a "Few" dollars, being unhappy with the quality, and asking for a refund? Then coming on here protecting the community from someone whom was CLEARLY out to get as many people as possible.

I apologize if I seem too enthusiastic and sometimes jump into things quickly, but that is me and I am probably never going to change as that is how I was born. Heck, It's gotten me pretty far in life and when I hone it right sometimes is a way better quality than not haha.

My intentions were not malicious and never are. I would never lie steal cheat or rob from anyone (not just board members). I am 32 and can honestly say from the bottom of my heart I have never stolen anything in my life..

ok one time at Golf Smith when I was 7 I walked out with a bag of tees and in the car my dad asked me how I got them and I said the store. Once he explained to me about stealing I cried and brought them back in haha.

Anyways, sorry for the long winded post. I am really one of the good guys.

There are definitely tons of different personalities on this board. Like anything in life. When you deal with the general public, you will have your Good Guys, Your Bad Guys, Your Tough Guys, Your Mother Theresa's, Your Crooks, Your Douche Bags, Your skeptics, Your Immature people and your Weirdos.

If you can not identify yourself with one of those, you're probably the Douche Bag.

[PhillipAbbott79]

ok one time at Golf Smith when I was 7 I walked out with a bag of tees and in the car my dad asked me how I got them and I said the store. Once he explained to me about stealing I cried and brought them back in haha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp9sEMEeTtc

[KingFisk]

If Net54 were a sitcom and all the members characters, Stephen would be the one who gets the TV Guide cover. And I mean that as a compliment.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Zact]

I feel its an unfortunate situation for both parties involved.
IMO hobbyists involved in BST transactions with cards should all have a clear method of displaying and transmitting images of the items. I.e. spend $80 for a flat bed scanner - and use it - a 400-600 dpi scan of the front and back with comments on any surface issues which may not be apparent on the scan. I may be stating the obvious, but all too often I see poor images from individuals attempting to BST sports cards- this is mostly on ebay, social media, and message boards. The "high end boards" such as net54 and CU tend to have much less of this going on. I saw the FS posts with regards to the individual in question and just passed on by- the images are horrible- either trying to hide something or are too lazy to figure out a way to take clear images. Maybe we should have some kind of minimum standard or set of guidelines in the BST sections with regards to displaying items for sale. Probably would be a pain for the moderators to monitor -but may be worth it in the long run.

[cammb]

I think the seller described the card perfectly. Because he suggested that it might be a 3 doesn't make it so. When he states that there are two creases on the card, that tells you that a 3 it is not. How many times have you sent in a card to be graded and it comes back not only a grade lower than you expected but two grades lower!!. This is buyers remorse and nothing else, IMO.

[bobbyw8469]

Bottom line is someone bought a card, the listing was less than honest, the buyer was unhappy with it, asked for a refund, and was told to forget it.

How was the listing less than honest?? The card had creases, and the creases were mentioned. Seller said the card MIGHT '3'. I've seen some pretty bad 3's, so I can see why he would think that. The card will more likely '2'....I think both sides made errors.....

[bobbyw8469]

I'm not gonna rehash with you Steven the technicalities of "striking gold". You got a 1956 Mantle for $250. It's an iconic card, as long as it is real. The scan he showed had the card in pretty decent shape. You paid a PSA 2 price and got a raw card that will more than likely grade a PSA 2. Not the "trade up" you envisioned, but still a Mantle card......Like someone else said, it was a seller trying to take advantage and a buyer trying to take advantage. Bad combination, IMHO.

[Republicaninmass]

:There are definitely tons of different personalities on this board. Like anything in life. When you deal with the general public, you will have your Good Guys, Your Bad Guys, Your Tough Guys, Your Mother Theresa's, Your Crooks, Your Douche Bags, Your skeptics, Your Immature people and your Weirdos.

If you can not identify yourself with one of those, you're probably the Douche Bag."



...But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain... and an athlete... a basket case... a princess... and a criminal. Does that answer your question? Sincerely yours, the Breakfast Club

[Snapolit1]

Sure everyone on this board has made a transaction and looked back on it with regret. Maybe think the seller was less than forthcoming. Comes with the territory. Write the seller off and move on. No need to make a federal case out of it as they say.

[Mdmtx]

:There are definitely tons of different personalities on this board. Like anything in life. When you deal with the general public, you will have your Good Guys, Your Bad Guys, Your Tough Guys, Your Mother Theresa's, Your Crooks, Your Douche Bags, Your skeptics, Your Immature people and your Weirdos.

If you can not identify yourself with one of those, you're probably the Douche Bag."



...But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain... and an athlete... a basket case... a princess... and a criminal. Does that answer your question? Sincerely yours, the Breakfast Club

Roflmfao!!!!

[slidekellyslide]

All that matters is mama got a sweet new counter top.

If I were to weigh the fault on a scale the seller here bears by far the most weight. No matter what Stephen paid he didn't get what he was expecting and a refund should have been issued without question. The guy admitted he can't take pictures worth a crap. Factor in the back and forth he had with Sean and that guy doesn't belong on this forum.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I'm not gonna rehash with you Steven the technicalities of "striking gold". You got a 1956 Mantle for $250. It's an iconic card, as long as it is real. The scan he showed had the card in pretty decent shape. You paid a PSA 2 price and got a raw card that will more than likely grade a PSA 2. Not the "trade up" you envisioned, but still a Mantle card......Like someone else said, it was a seller trying to take advantage and a buyer trying to take advantage. Bad combination, IMHO.



You are wrong bough. Taking advantage would be hey sweet mantle card. It's only worth 150 can I give you 100? I told him I wanted to buy it to make a few bucks. I was forthcoming and honest from the jump. He led me to believe it was in better condition than it was and that I would be able to make money on my 250 rather than 200. How was I looking to take advantage? I literally told him I was buying to resell. Holy smokes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stephen -- the guy is banned. I think at this point you would be well served to move on and leave this alone.

[swarmee]

Stephen, at some point, you gotta let it go. Let someone else have last word, even if they're dinging you with it. The deal is completed. The seller is off the board. Case closed.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Stephen, at some point, you gotta let it go. Let someone else have last word, even if they're dinging you with it. The deal is completed. The seller is off the board. Case closed.



You're right. Apologies.

[AGuinness]

N


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[Paul S]

N

O?

[TheNightmanCometh]

It's fitting that I come in and make a comment after this issue is completely dead, but YOLO.

Stephen, it sucks when you feel you made a deal with good intentions, but the deal turned bad. Nobody wants to have to go through that, so I feel for you a bit because you went in with a lot of trust and that trust was taken advantage of.

That being said, you have to do a better job of getting all the information needed to make an accurate decision on whether or not what you purchase is going to allow you to flip it for a profit. The picture he supplied was terrible, and you should have asked for better pictures. Enough pictures to where you can tell 100% that the card is worth the money you're about to pay for it. If you can't get that then don't do the deal. Two, you can't just trust people's word on things. Even if he says he thinks it'd grade at a 3, that doesn't mean that's true. He never claimed to be an expert, so basically you trusted a guess and are upset that his guess wasn't accurate. Three, you can't come on here and do what you did, at least not in the time frame that you did it. You came on here before things had finalized and bad mouthed him. I don't like eBay very much, but one thing I do like about them is that if you buy a card and it's not what was advertised then you have to go through a process to get a refund. I believe that process takes at least a couple of weeks. You got the card, messaged him, and shortly thereafter posted this thread in order to get Net54 to guilt him into giving you a refund. If you had waited at least a couple of weeks, and done everything you could do in order to get a refund, and then came here after the issue was completed, in order to out a bad seller who refused to give you a refund, despite your best efforts, you'd have garnered more sympathy to your plight. As it stands now, you've hurt your reputation by jumping the gun and putting the seller on blast before the situation came to a complete conclusion.

In the end, I think you felt a bit betrayed and you did what you did in an attempt to make things right, but you went about it all wrong. In the future, get better pics, don't take the sellers word for anything, pay using a CC, and if you ever have an issue with another seller, PM Leon or a member you can trust and run the situation by them before taking it to the board.

I wish you the best of luck on your goal of getting the Mantle.

[1952boyntoncollector]

You are wrong bough. Taking advantage would be hey sweet mantle card. It's only worth 150 can I give you 100? I told him I wanted to buy it to make a few bucks. I was forthcoming and honest from the jump. He led me to believe it was in better condition than it was and that I would be able to make money on my 250 rather than 200. How was I looking to take advantage? I literally told him I was buying to resell. Holy smokes.

It going to be really hard to find someone selling 1 card to you for you to make 50 bucks on a 200 dollar card. That same person would likely try to sell the card for 225 dollars

When a card is raw there is always risk. You could in the future have the card graded and if it came back a 2, he could agree to give you 25 bucks or whatever. Some sellers may agree to this so they dont have to send the card off to be graded. I have done this type of deal with T206 cards where i received a credit or i paid extra depending how a raw card graded.

The buying to resell makes the most sense what you buy several cards and are willing to do the sweat equity to make money off of them imo..

[TheNightmanCometh]

It going to be really hard to find someone selling 1 card to you for you to make 50 bucks on a 200 dollar card. That same person would likely try to sell the card for 225 dollars

When a card is raw there is always risk. You could in the future have the card graded and if it came back a 2, he could agree to give you 25 bucks or whatever. Some sellers may agree to this so they dont have to send the card off to be graded. I have done this type of deal with T206 cards where i received a credit or i paid extra depending how a raw card graded.

The buying to resell makes the most sense what you buy several cards and are willing to do the sweat equity to make money off of them imo..

I agree, vintage lots can be a good way to make some capital if your goal is to make money to eventually either get a more expensive card to flip, or to pay for the card you want.

[CMIZ5290]

Stephen -- the guy is banned. I think at this point you would be well served to move on and leave this alone.

Can I please get an Amen?????

[Sean]

Can I please get an Amen?????

Yes, let's please let this thread die.