Brent Huigens - PWCC. Do you really want to keep this game up? I'm ready boss.

[Whodunit]

Brent Huigens PWCC - don't push me.

[D.P.Johnson]

Delete

[Whodunit]

This post will come back shortly.................. ;-)

I just found some other good information that will add to the saga.

[TobaccoKing4]

http://i68.tinypic.com/i2rsyh.jpg

[Stonepony]

Here comes another " I've got stuff on you Brent" thread ,with a whole lotta bark but no bite. Yawn.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Still waiting for those other screen shots..had a few months to figure out how to upload them..

[VintageBen]

waiting like everyone else

[orly57]

We have been down this road before.

[ngnichols]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/db/6a/fc/db6afccac70dc671b5ecf06b36b5d3f3.jpg

[Rich Falvo]

Another thread I don't understand the purpose of...

[Whodunit]

Still waiting for those other screen shots..had a few months to figure out how to upload them..

Still upset that i let psa handle the last situation????.....and not your uneducated, whining self? POSSIBLY that you were left in the dark while the big boys hashed it out? Join the pay grade boss, we'll let you in. Sit back drama queen, youll join the other "queen" that i busted tonight.

If you didnt notice, i removed a comment, and edited the thread to wait for more, damning info (referred to in an intelligent world as due diligence....goggle it). So, again, as last time, either stfu, go away, or be patient. Just bc I dont give your whining ass everything you want, when you want it, doesnt mean things arent being handled that your irrelevant ass cant see.

For the ones not named this idiot (BOYNTONRETARD), i ran across some messages between Betsy and myself from pre ban days.....wonder why that happened???? 😂😂😂 Brent, i never deleted any of yours, or Betsys, messages. And, the original post, that i removed, will be back......likely today.

[Whodunit]

So, Brent, ask yourself, "what could she have said while (i was fishing with my dad) that i dont know about......that he still has?" ����

[ullmandds]

Im just wondering how the op can keep posting yet his/hers post count remains at 69????

[Batpig]

Still upset that i let psa handle the last situation????.....and not your uneducated, whining self? POSSIBLY that you were left in the dark while the big boys hashed it out? Join the pay grade boss, we'll let you in. Sit back drama queen, youll join the other "queen" that i busted tonight.

If you didnt notice, i removed a comment, and edited the thread to wait for more, damning info (referred to in an intelligent world as due diligence....goggle it). So, again, as last time, either stfu, go away, or be patient. Just bc I dont give your whining ass everything you want, when you want it, doesnt mean things arent being handled that your irrelevant ass cant see.

For the ones not named this idiot (BOYNTONRETARD), i ran across some messages between Betsy and myself from pre ban days.....wonder why that happened???? 😂😂😂 Brent, i never deleted any of yours, or Betsys, messages. And, the original post, that i removed, will be back......likely today.

Goggle it!

[Bliggity]

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/Bliggity/forum-image-hosting/50114/goggles

[shernan30]

This kind of stuff is getting old.

[hangman62]

still have no idea what this is about

[vintagetoppsguy]

goggle it!

lol! :D

[PhillipAbbott79]

Here comes another " I've got stuff on you Brent" thread ,with a whole lotta bark but no bite. Yawn.

Seriously. :rolleyes:

I gave him the benefit of the doubt the first round because he appears to have more context then what he shared, but it has proven to not have any real legs.

It does show however, that their relationship hasn't completely ended.

[Leon]

So here is the deal Courtney. This isn't your playpen. You are now in a user group that is NOT allowed to edit.
This is a forum to discuss pre war cards and the hobby. You will have to follow the same, slack rules as everyone else. Let this be your first warning on calling people immature names.
Brent Huigens PWCC - don't push me.

[iowadoc77]

This thread isn't even worth a cup of coffee.
Probably more appropriate to sip an ice cold tang on the back porch.
Sort of a pissing into the wind sort of deal, no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Im just wondering how the op can keep posting yet his/hers post count remains at 69????

All prior posts reflect an updated post count.

[Leon]

Everything's a conspiracy to some people. Post counts are automatic.

All prior posts reflect an updated post count.

[ullmandds]

Everything's a conspiracy to some people. Post counts are automatic.

i realize post counts are automatic but for some reason all the op's posts say its his 69th post...still.

[bnorth]

i realize post counts are automatic but for some reason all the op's posts say its his 69th post...still.

OH NO, Pete all you posts say it is your 6961th post.:D

[gregr2]

i realize post counts are automatic but for some reason all the op's posts say its his 69th post...still.

And all of yours say 6961. Once you make a new post the post count on all of your previous posts is automatically updated to the new count.

[Leon]

Just like the other 8000 members. They don't change until you post..... (mine was 22098 before this post)

i realize post counts are automatic but for some reason all the op's posts say its his 69th post...still.

[scooter729]

i realize post counts are automatic but for some reason all the op's posts say its his 69th post...still.
I'll change mine since 17 of us jumped on Pete's post at the same time.

Guess what day it is - HUMP DAY!

[irv]

Pete, I believe, is saying, for some reason, no matter how many times Courtney posts, he post count never rises.

[Stonepony]

Pete completely ruined a perfectly crappy thread with his post count conspiracy!

[slidekellyslide]

Pete, I believe, is saying, for some reason, no matter how many times Courtney posts, he post count never rises.

If you click on Cortney's profile and look at all of his posts he has exactly 69 posts to Net54. I'm not sure what rabbit hole Pete is going down. :D

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Can't we just start a new thread titled "What's Your Post Count Number?":D

[ullmandds]

Pete, I believe, is saying, for some reason, no matter how many times Courtney posts, he post count never rises.

YES...this is what I'm saying!!!!

[ullmandds]

U see...u see!!!!

[Bpm0014]

Brent Huigens PWCC - don't push me

Somebody had one too many wine coolers last night.... :(

[Peter_Spaeth]

YES...this is what I'm saying!!!!

Next time he posts -- and hopefully he will -- his count will show at 70 in all his posts. Pete you need stronger coffee or something.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Next time he posts -- and hopefully he will not -- his count will show at 70 in all his posts.

Fixed

[ullmandds]

oh...now I get it Pete...thx...I'm off coffee...have had a bad cold for a week now...its obviously effecting me!!!

[BobbyVCP]

I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?

[T205 GB]

What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?

I would say probably 90%+ of the board members here.

[irv]

I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?

What he has said, he has been saying for a long time. Imo, every once in a while he throws out another feel good letter/e-mail saying he is doing this or that but it has been proven time and time again that nothing has changed.

When I first joined and started collecting again, I read one of those and thought, good for you, at least you are trying to do something!

Needless to say, after back reading numerous posts/threads, I came across similar written letters that were written years prior. :confused:

As was recently proven, with the amount of bid retractions still happening within their auctions, it is plain to see, like I wrote above, these letters are nothing but smoke and mirrors and feel good stories for unsuspecting customer/newbies like me.

I'm embarrassed I use to speak highly of them.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Can't we just start a new thread titled "What's Your Post Count Number?":D

That has been done, and won.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fixed

David, I do hope he posts again, as it would be interesting to see what he has to say, to me anyhow. But, he tells me he is blocked?

[vintagetoppsguy]

David, I do hope he posts again, as it would be interesting to see what he has to say, to me anyhow. But, he tells me he is blocked?

Peter, did you read his original post before he edited it? It was some stupid drunk incoherent post about Betsy's gay brother and how her gay brother was stalking him. Like Leon said, "This isn't his playpen"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, did you read his original post before he edited it? It was some stupid drunk incoherent post about Betsy's gay brother and how her gay brother was stalking him. Like Leon said, "This isn't his playpen"

David, no, I did not see that. I would not have found that interesting, I had assumed he had more information pertinent to prior claims about auction shenanigans.

[Stonepony]

Peter, did you read his original post before he edited it? It was some stupid drunk incoherent post about Betsy's gay brother and how her gay brother was stalking him. Like Leon said, "This isn't his playpen"

Well... he is "ready", Boss.

[steve B]

U see...u see!!!!

Nope, it's way too tiny and expanding it makes it blurry. :D

This whole thread is like the news saying "film at 11" But when you stay up for it there's just some poor recent broadcasting graduate standing in the rain in front of someplace where something may have happened a few hours ago, but for sure isn't happening now. (Nobody go thinking you're the recent broadcasting graduate now. Unless you are, in which case 1 sorry, 2 Congratulations! 3 I advise buying a good raincoat and if you're up north a good winter jacket etc., you'll need them )

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

I think the culprit behind this post-count thing is Archive.

[Leon]

I think the culprit behind this post-count thing is Archive.

"Archive"- funniest.. thread.. ever.

[aloondilana]

Cortney is not a bad guy at all, in fact I would put his integrity up against anyone. I've read this thread and don't completely get it all, but I do know Cortney is a stand up guy. Not sure why the thread was removed or edited, but I'd be willing to bet that if Cortney wrote it, he's got all his backup information.

Amazing how this hobby seems to create more enemies than friends, what happened with Cortney and Brent over That WWG Dimaggio was just an aweful situation, surely it created some bad blood between two good friends at the time.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that Cortney does not drink alcohol, not a chance he was posting after some wine coolers as someone mentioned.

Maybe Cortney and Brent should see a therapist together:)

[PhillipAbbott79]

Cortney is not a bad guy at all, in fact I would put his integrity up against anyone. I've read this thread and don't completely get it all, but I do know Cortney is a stand up guy. Not sure why the thread was removed or edited, but I'd be willing to bet that if Cortney wrote it, he's got all his backup information.

Amazing how this hobby seems to create more enemies than friends, what happened with Cortney and Brent over That WWG Dimaggio was just an aweful situation, surely it created some bad blood between two good friends at the time.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that Cortney does not drink alcohol, not a chance he was posting after some wine coolers as someone mentioned.

Maybe Cortney and Brent should see a therapist together:)

Weren't you involved in a card flipping incident also?

[aloondilana]

Card flipping incident? No, I won a card on Goldin Auctions, you are free to check the record.

I then consigned it to Brent.

You know the rest of the story.

[slidekellyslide]

Cortney is not a bad guy at all, in fact I would put his integrity up against anyone.

You must have missed the homophobic comments that he decided to delete after having them up for about 15 minutes.

[Stampsfan]

oh...now I get it Pete...thx...I'm off coffee...have had a bad cold for a week now...its obviously effecting me!!!

It must be affecting you too.

[quinnsryche]

Somebody had one too many wine coolers last night.... :([/QUOTE]

Do they still make wine coolers? I LOVED those about 30 years ago!

PS - What the HELL is this thread about, for us not in the inner circle?

[autograf]

I heard ZIMA is coming back........

[Leon]

Somebody had one too many wine coolers last night....

Do they still make wine coolers? I LOVED those about 30 years ago!

PS - What the HELL is this thread about, for us not in the inner circle?

sorry it's a secret double secret ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3LzJzQ3wj4


.

[quinnsryche]

Yea! for Zima. Crap! for double secret probation. I hate when that happens.

[aloondilana]

Speaking of our beloved card, hmmm.... Check out the POP Report guys
The card has been removed.
I find it very hard to believe the winner of the card from PWCC
just sent it into PSA and asked to remove the card from the holder.
So who really won this card?
That's the question of the day.

Seems to me I should be reimbursed the commission I paid on this.

[orly57]

Speaking of our beloved card, hmmm.... Check out the POP Report guys
The card has been removed.
I find it very hard to believe the winner of the card from PWCC
just sent it into PSA and asked to remove the card from the holder.
So who really won this card?
That's the question of the day.

Seems to me I should be reimbursed the commission I paid on this.

This deserves its own thread John. Seriously. Start one. That is INSANE. Whoever bought that card wanted it to disappear, and PSA was more than happy to oblige. This is bigger news than the original discovery in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This deserves its own thread John. Seriously. Start one. That is INSANE. Whoever bought that card wanted it to disappear, and PSA was more than happy to oblige. This is bigger news than the original discovery in my opinion.

And the beat goes on.
Yeah the beat goes on.

[BeanTown]

This deserves its own thread John. Seriously. Start one. That is INSANE. Whoever bought that card wanted it to disappear, and PSA was more than happy to oblige. This is bigger news than the original discovery in my opinion.

+1

[rsn1661]

Zima, the clear one, not the gold one.

[Beastmode]

Wow. Courtney's panties are certainly in a bunch. After multiple "time-outs" in the corner of his mom's house, he's still fired up. The tone of his post screams "I'm a xxcking nut job".

Brent needs a restraining order against this mental head case. He's lost it.

[MVSNYC]

How about Zima with grenadine? Very 1995.

[packs]

Oh wow almost makes me wish I was 21 in 95.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

"Cortney's not a bad guy at all." "Cortney's an effing nut job."

I don't know who or what to believe anymore.

Somebody grab me another Bartles and Jaymes please!!!

[ullmandds]

you guys are a riot...wine coolers!!! we used to buy the 2 liter bottles of sun country in high school...before I developed a taste for beer! never did zima.

[iowadoc77]

Unfortunate Zima incident in high school. Bad going in. Bad coming out. Bad. Bad. Bad.

[Rookiemonster]

He seems more like a mad dog 20/20 to me. It probably rolled up in a brown paper bag .

[irv]

Speaking of our beloved card, hmmm.... Check out the POP Report guys
The card has been removed.
I find it very hard to believe the winner of the card from PWCC
just sent it into PSA and asked to remove the card from the holder.
So who really won this card?
That's the question of the day.

Seems to me I should be reimbursed the commission I paid on this.

As the plot thickens!! Anyone have any idea/theories what is going on here? :confused:

Like what was said above, it is very hard to believe the winner would send this in to have the card removed,,,,,,,,,well, a real winner anyways. ;)

[JeremyW]

Back in high school, a buddy & I sent a stranger into the grocery store to buy $10. worth of wine coolers & the guy came out with two gallons of wine. What can you do when you're 15?

[egbeachley]

Zima, the clear one, not the gold one.

I think the gold one was Tequiza. Good times!

[orly57]

The only reason anyone would drop over 50k for that hideous card IS THE SLAB!!! Then it disappears from the psa population. That is the cherry on top, and a fantastic coverup to this whole sordid mess.

[Brent Huigens]

Speaking of our beloved card, hmmm.... Check out the POP Report guys
The card has been removed.
I find it very hard to believe the winner of the card from PWCC
just sent it into PSA and asked to remove the card from the holder.
So who really won this card?
That's the question of the day.

Seems to me I should be reimbursed the commission I paid on this.

After long deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided to remove the card from the registry due to concerns raised by the hobby about the restoration. PWCC has contacted the buyer and offered to accept a return for a full refund. The card is still in the possession of the buyer, and because it is his property at the moment, it is up to him whether he wants to return the card.

John, please feel free to reach out to Brent directly should you have questions about how to handle your consignment fees from this sale.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[irv]

The only reason anyone would drop over 50k for that hideous card IS THE SLAB!!! Then it disappears from the psa population. That is the cherry on top, and a fantastic cover up to this whole sordid mess.

I alluded to that fact that PWCC wasn't the only one involved with that Dimaggio card. Everyone questioned the grade and wondered how it got such a high one?!?!?

I think, right about now, there is more than one party who wishes all this would just disappear. :rolleyes:

[Bigshot69]

The only clear winner here is Bartles and James.

[iowadoc77]

The only clear winner here is Bartles and James.

And the makers of Zima!

[PhillipAbbott79]

After long deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided to remove the card from the registry due to concerns raised by the hobby about the restoration. PWCC has contacted the buyer and offered to accept a return for a full refund. The card is still in the possession of the buyer, and because it is his property at the moment, it is up to him whether he wants to return the card.

John, please feel free to reach out to Brent directly should you have questions about how to handle your consignment fees from this sale.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

I find it interesting that you didn't make a statement regarding it until now, not that you needed to, but why wouldn't you, to let everyone know it has been resolved in good faith.

What would be interesting to hear you say is, yes we did modify the card, we did sell it and are sorry, and we will not be doing this again in the future, it was a mistake.

But then, if you did that, you wouldn't be able to do it again and get caught right?

Additionally, I would question how it was removed. PSA now has a hard in a holder, that exists, that is real, but is not in the registry and there is an underlying problem with the card, that no one can tell unless they know the cert and call them up to inquire?

This seems like rush to handle. If I am not mistaken, this is far from PSA's policy on how card disputes are handled. Per the other Ebay guy who had the PSA 6 Cobb, they require the card in hand to examine it. This to me means, there is a lot of pressure to go outside of normal policy to clean this up.

[Batpig]

What a mess. I wonder if PSA is footing the bill for this fiasco.

[mark evans]

Cortney (who I don't know) should make his point or points clearly and concisely, not with obfuscation and innuendo. Otherwise, he's just wasting everyone's time.

If the dispute pertains to the DiMaggio card, it appears that this thread may finally be getting to the meat of the coconut.

[Peter_Spaeth]

After long deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided to remove the card from the registry due to concerns raised by the hobby about the restoration. PWCC has contacted the buyer and offered to accept a return for a full refund. The card is still in the possession of the buyer, and because it is his property at the moment, it is up to him whether he wants to return the card.

John, please feel free to reach out to Brent directly should you have questions about how to handle your consignment fees from this sale.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

I thought PSA returned the card to PWCC during the auction after it was sent in for expedited review and despite having been informed about the problem, said it stood by the grade. Or so you said before.

"We did indeed engage PSA to verify the accuracy of their assessment on this 1936 WWG DiMaggio. As we strongly believed, the card is graded accurately and this was re-confirmed by PSA prior the auction sale."

The stories are not consistent IMO.

[Brent Huigens]

I thought PSA returned the card to PWCC during the auction after it was sent in for expedited review and despite having been informed about the problem, said it stood by the grade. Or so you said before.

"We did indeed engage PSA to verify the accuracy of their assessment on this 1936 WWG DiMaggio. As we strongly believed, the card is graded accurately and this was re-confirmed by PSA prior the auction sale."

The stories are not consistent IMO.

Peter, yes indeed they did. Just last week they decided to remove the item from the registry. It appears that they reconsidered the grade post sale. In light of this, the buyer has been given the opportunity to return the card.

Betsy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, yes indeed they did. Just last week they decided to remove the item from the registry. It appears that they reconsidered the grade post sale. In light of this, the buyer has been given the opportunity to return the card.

Betsy

They removed the card without it in hand? That makes no sense to me. And why did this even come up again as an issue, if they vetted the card during the auction? And why were they deliberating with you, as opposed to internally? If I were PSA I wouldn't care what you thought frankly, and besides they already knew your opinion.

[irv]

LOL. This just gets better by the minute! :rolleyes:

[TobaccoKing4]

http://i64.tinypic.com/2eumvxv.jpg

[CrackaJackKid]

PWCC...you guys are doing more harm than help to the hobby. All the shenanigans when this is just a hobby to so many people. So much manipulation,fraud and decievement I really hope in 10 years your a thing of the past. But people will say, "oh but PWCC gets some of the nicest looking cards from consignors, probably cause you guys have every card doctor/soaker on speed dial. I have not nor will I ever purchase a card from PWCC. I'm done...WHEW!!!..I feel better.

[ZiggerZagger]

Well now I'm eagerly glued to the PSA POP Report on the T206 Wagner -- it'll probably only be a matter of hours before the butchered McNall-Gretzky Wagner is finally pulled!!

It's a brave new world! :D:D:D


Peter, yes indeed they did. Just last week they decided to remove the item from the registry. It appears that they reconsidered the grade post sale. In light of this, the buyer has been given the opportunity to return the card.

Betsy

[irv]

well now i'm eagerly glued to the psa pop report on the t206 wagner -- it'll probably only be a matter of hours before the butchered mcnall-gretzky wagner is finally pulled!!

it's a brave new world! :d:d:d

lmao! :d

[slidekellyslide]

Well now I'm eagerly glued to the PSA POP Report on the T206 Wagner -- it'll probably only be a matter of hours before the butchered McNall-Gretzky Wagner is finally pulled!!

It's a brave new world! :D:D:D

Good point, and that card unlike the WWG DiMaggio actually has an admission from the culprit that it was indeed hand cut from a sheet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good point, and that card unlike the WWG DiMaggio actually has an admission from the culprit that it was indeed hand cut from a sheet.

Brent who bought the card in a 4 acknowledged the work was done to turn it into a 7.

[PhillipAbbott79]

They removed the card without it in hand? That makes no sense to me. And why did this even come up again as an issue, if they vetted the card during the auction? And why were they deliberating with you, as opposed to internally? If I were PSA I wouldn't care what you thought frankly, and besides they already knew your opinion.

I will attest to the fact that PSA requires the item back, so they can prosecute and press charges, when they know who is responsible. This is clearly against their policies when dealing with others.

I concur, this is making zero sense at all.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Brent who bought the card in a 4 acknowledged the work was done to turn it into a 7.

He just hasn't admitted it was him, unless I am mistaken.

[slidekellyslide]

He just hasn't admitted it was him, unless I am mistaken.

I also must have missed the post where he said he had the work done.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He just hasn't admitted it was him, unless I am mistaken.

He bought it as a 4, and HE consigned it as a 7. And he obviously knew what had been done as he characterized it to Sean as minor minor. Ya think he didn't have it done? :D

[PhillipAbbott79]

He bought it as a 4, and HE sold it as a 7. Ya think he didn't have it done? :D

That can certainly be implied, but what you don't know is if he also sold it as a 4, before selling it again as a 7.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He just hasn't admitted it was him, unless I am mistaken.

Welcome to spin planet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That can certainly be implied, but what you don't know is if he also sold it as a 4, before selling it again as a 7.

I know he didn't. Offline conversations.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Card flipping incident? No, I won a card on Goldin Auctions, you are free to check the record.

I then consigned it to Brent.

You know the rest of the story.

And he made some good money on it..at least what most of us would consider good money........and maybe gets the commission back too..? the rich get richer.

I know if i consigned a card that PSA removed from the registry, i would give the money back to the buyer if the buyer wanted their money back since they bought a card that was supposed to be a certain grade and that grade is removed.

No reason to attack me for the post, but the sale is what it is....its not like i am making this up..

[Whodunit]

Good eye John. Ive been watching the pop report every since the card sold for this day and this post. The part about the Dimaggio 7 being "no more" was part of my attempt to post last night. Pretty hard gut check when someone you trust blatantly lies to you (and me) for personal gain. Losing money on the card was ok; being lied to was not. And, now we have to listen to Brent and/or Betsy lie about it more as the coverup continues.

[Cliff Bowman]

Incredible!!! Now all of his posts say 70!

[slidekellyslide]

Incredible!!! Now all of his posts say 70!

Heh...he was posting all day today but only Leon and I could see him. I figured Leon had put him in Purgatory, but now see it was a software error.

[Leon]

That was my mistake. I was seeing his posts too so didn't understand the issue ...LOL (sort of)

Heh...he was posting all day today but only Leon and I could see him. I figured Leon had put him in Purgatory, but now see it was a software error.

[Michael B]

And the makers of Zima!

What about Zapple? They don't get no respect!!! (Poor grammar on purpose.)

[vintagetoppsguy]

PSA does not require a card to be in their possession before removing it from the pop report. I remember several years ago, there was a thread on the CU message boards about a '66 Killebrew that was graded a 10, but looked like a 5. Most agreed it was a mechanical error. PSA contacted the eBay seller to try and get the card back, the seller refused to cooperate. PSA removed the card from the registry. It does happen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA does not require a card to be in their possession before removing it from the pop report. I remember several years ago, there was a thread on the CU message boards about a '66 Killebrew that was graded a 10, but looked like a 5. Most agreed it was a mechanical error. PSA contacted the eBay seller to try and get the card back, the seller refused to cooperate. PSA removed the card from the registry. It does happen.

This is a 50k card. And we arent getting the whole story imo.

[Whodunit]

If PSA doesnt require that a graded item be in their possession, or evidence of destruction, etc, why is the Wagner still in the pop when everybody knows it is altered as well?......and, yes, i realize this question was raised earlier today, but I dont think it was ever answered directly. This was also a topic of discussion for me today with other fellow hobbyists (while I couldnt post).

[Whodunit]

Peter,

IMO, we'll never know the whole story.....especially the part about who won it at auction with Brent and where it is today, unless John takes him to court. If that happens, I truly want to have my testimony subpoenaed. I simply keep finding out more and more bc I refuse to let it die after how matters were handled. This is obviously personal to me; not bc of the money, but bc someone I trusted lied to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The big song and dance during the auction about psa reviewing it and blessing it, then after the auction for no apparent reason they pull a 180 and deregister it while leaving the card out there? Cmon. It doesnt add up. Bs meter on high but then again nothing new there.

[Whodunit]

The big song and dance during the auction about psa reviewing it and blessing it, then after the auction for no apparent reason they pull a 180 and deregister it while leaving the card out there? Cmon. It doesnt add up. Bs meter on high but then again nothing new there.


Im absolutely not buying that argument! I never believed it while they were saying it was at PSA during the auction, and I dang sure dont think PSA blessed it after the obvious alterations were revealed. Now, theyre discussing it with somebody who doesnt even own or possess the card? Behind the new owners back? Yeah, BS meter going lunar on that one.

[ngnichols]

It all boils down to if there is a buck to be made, someone, somewhere will engage in fraud to make money.

This is not exclusive to the card hobby and it's pretty sad to see. These are the reasons why people just completely get out of the hobby and/or don't trust certain companies/graders/consignors/people because they act in an unprofessional and unscrupulous way just to make a couple of bucks.

[Whodunit]

It all boils down to if there is a buck to be made, someone, somewhere will engage in fraud to make money.

This is not exclusive to the card hobby and it's pretty sad to see. These are the reasons why people just completely get out of the hobby and/or don't trust certain companies/graders/consignors/people because they act in an unprofessional and unscrupulous way just to make a couple of bucks.

You, sir, are absolutely correct!

This time last yr, id have defended him against any foe and any argument. Now, I cant say Id put his word greater than or equal to a drug dealer.

[PhillipAbbott79]

PSA does not require a card to be in their possession before removing it from the pop report. I remember several years ago, there was a thread on the CU message boards about a '66 Killebrew that was graded a 10, but looked like a 5. Most agreed it was a mechanical error. PSA contacted the eBay seller to try and get the card back, the seller refused to cooperate. PSA removed the card from the registry. It does happen.

Several years ago, may not be how it works today. This comes from a lawyer representing the guy with the PSA 6 Green Cobb. There is an outside chance it is a complete fabricated lie, but there was enough contact I do believe some of it. Leaning towards it being truthful.

He said he has a lawyer, the lawyer was handling communication, and went into extreme detail about how they handle it, what they do legally, why and what your options are based on a huge variety of factors based on the review they do having the card in slab, in hand.

Most of it makes/made sense, and it was hard to deny he sounded like he knew what he was talking about, without actually going threw it myself.

I will say, correct though, it is their database, and they can do what they want with it, but at the same time by doing so they open themselves up to new risks that may not be covered by their standard insurance, etc.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Peter,

IMO, we'll never know the whole story.....especially the part about who won it at auction with Brent and where it is today, unless John takes him to court. If that happens, I truly want to have my testimony subpoenaed. I simply keep finding out more and more bc I refuse to let it die after how matters were handled. This is obviously personal to me; not bc of the money, but bc someone I trusted lied to me.

You are so full of shit. No offense. You have the option of free speech, which you can post right here, right now. You can chose to leave out the parts that incriminate you, unless that is 100 percent of what you have to say.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Im absolutely not buying that argument! I never believed it while they were saying it was at PSA during the auction, and I dang sure dont think PSA blessed it after the obvious alterations were revealed. Now, theyre discussing it with somebody who doesnt even own or possess the card? Behind the new owners back? Yeah, BS meter going lunar on that one.

As much as I want to not believe a word you are saying because of how ambiguous you are being, I believe you are pissed, and believe you have SOMETHING to back up what you are claiming, but at the same time I do NOT believe you are ENTIRELY innocent and that there are problems on both side of the fence.

Let's be honest, you popped out of the wood work. Has anyone here met you in person ever?

Both you and him have benefited from your relationship, both of you only say what is required to get each other to budge/move on an issue to resolve your own problems. To me this bull shit middle ground sounds like you are in cahoots and only playing chess against each other in the public forum to see who chickens first.

Spill the guts GUY, or Shut the F*** Up.

Side note. I once supported you, but you are losing that by saying stupid SH1T.

[toppcat]

I remember when this was a fun hobby:(

[MikeGarcia]

I remember when this was a fun hobby:(

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1937-39ORCAJO_0002_NEW.JPG

....every hundred or so posts , someone should show a pre-war baseball card , to lighten the mood......just a thought...

..

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

That is sweet, Mike. What is that? Gold Medal issue of some kind?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[toppcat]

Two thumbs up on that Mike:o

[MikeGarcia]

That is sweet, Mike. What is that? Gold Medal issue of some kind?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

....1937 to 1939 Cincinnati Reds Postcards , "Orcajo Photo Art , Dayton Ohio"

...set consists of all the Cincinnati Reds players of those years , and one New York Yankee , who shall go nameless , at the risk of starting yet another thread....

..

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks for the knowledge. You are king of the 30s!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[D.P.Johnson]

Any chance the person who bought the DiMaggio card works for PSA???

[rainier2004]

Has PSA said anything about this or is all the info coming from PWCC?

[ramram]

I made it through this whole thread and still have no idea what's going on. Anybody have the Cliff Notes?

Rob M

[aloondilana]

And he made some good money on it..at least what most of us would consider good money........and maybe gets the commission back too..? the rich get richer.

I know if i consigned a card that PSA removed from the registry, i would give the money back to the buyer if the buyer wanted their money back since they bought a card that was supposed to be a certain grade and that grade is removed.

No reason to attack me for the post, but the sale is what it is....its not like i am making this up..

Jake Please!

I purchased the card for $46,800

It sold for $52,351, then minus Brent's commission I net $48,163
Which made me $1,362 bucks.

Brent on the other hand paid $6,500, then sold it to Cortney for $75,000, then made $4,188 on my commission. Brent then paid me $48,163 so when all is said and done, Brent's profit is $24,525. So who's the rich getting richer as you say?

My case is plain and simple, obviously the card did not sell to a legit buyer, therefore why should I pay commission to Brent when all he did was have it "sold" to hide the card, thus we see now the card is no longer in the PSA POP Report.

[slidekellyslide]

yeah, this doesn't look good for PWCC or PSA

[bnorth]

Several years ago, may not be how it works today. This comes from a lawyer representing the guy with the PSA 6 Green Cobb. There is an outside chance it is a complete fabricated lie, but there was enough contact I do believe some of it. Leaning towards it being truthful.

He said he has a lawyer, the lawyer was handling communication, and went into extreme detail about how they handle it, what they do legally, why and what your options are based on a huge variety of factors based on the review they do having the card in slab, in hand.

Most of it makes/made sense, and it was hard to deny he sounded like he knew what he was talking about, without actually going threw it myself.

I will say, correct though, it is their database, and they can do what they want with it, but at the same time by doing so they open themselves up to new risks that may not be covered by their standard insurance, etc.

Are you referring to the scammer that bought the Green Cobb as a novelty item and then got caught trying to sell it as real? I believe his ebay ID has realtopps in it. That person has been caught doing several shady things and I would not trust anything they(man/wife) said.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jake Please!

I purchased the card for $46,800

It sold for $52,351, then minus Brent's commission I net $48,163
Which made me $1,362 bucks.

Brent on the other hand paid $6,500, then sold it to Cortney for $75,000, then made $4,188 on my commission. Brent then paid me $48,163 so when all is said and done, Brent's profit is $24,525. So who's the rich getting richer as you say?

My case is plain and simple, obviously the card did not sell to a legit buyer, therefore why should I pay commission to Brent when all he did was have it "sold" to hide the card, thus we see now the card is no longer in the PSA POP Report.

Has Brent refunded the ebay buyer's money? Or do we think there was no actual sale? Otherwise, isn't his profit $68,500 minus costs of alteration :D the first time, and then $4188 the second time?

[Peter_Spaeth]

yeah, this doesn't look good for PWCC or PSA

They're Teflon, bro. Nothing will change.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake Please!

I purchased the card for $46,800

It sold for $52,351, then minus Brent's commission I net $48,163
Which made me $1,362 bucks.

Brent on the other hand paid $6,500, then sold it to Cortney for $75,000, then made $4,188 on my commission. Brent then paid me $48,163 so when all is said and done, Brent's profit is $24,525. So who's the rich getting richer as you say?

My case is plain and simple, obviously the card did not sell to a legit buyer, therefore why should I pay commission to Brent when all he did was have it "sold" to hide the card, thus we see now the card is no longer in the PSA POP Report.

Assuming the card was just removed from the registry for being altered etc...

Someone making more than someone else isnt really cause to get a commission back. Making $1300+ on a card in the matter of a month or so is a lot of money for most of us.

However, returning the money you got on the card and getting the card back puts everyone in the most fairest spot. Assuming the buyer of the card was real and wants the sale canceled.

You could then pursue the auction house in which you bought the card and they could pursue the consignor who could pursue anyone manipulated the value of the card. It goes down the line, taking a bigger profit from sale from someone who made an even bigger profit on an alleged fraud as a gripe is not the way to go.

If they sold the card to a 'legit' buyer, the card sells for less and you lose money. So making money isnt really a cause for a complaint if the reason is the card didnt sell to a 'legit' buyer.

Still need to know the reasons why the grade was removed by PSA. Was it regarded? Was it sent to SGC, whats the current grade now. If the card went to SGC for example, maybe it gets a SGC 4 and SGC advised PSA to remove the card from their registry. Yes this is a very unlikely scenerio, but in this scenerio there was nothing wrong in the sale of the card and all. Thus, its too much speculation right now unless we know why the card was removed from the registry.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Jake Please!

I purchased the card for $46,800

It sold for $52,351, then minus Brent's commission I net $48,163
Which made me $1,362 bucks.

Brent on the other hand paid $6,500, then sold it to Cortney for $75,000, then made $4,188 on my commission. Brent then paid me $48,163 so when all is said and done, Brent's profit is $24,525. So who's the rich getting richer as you say?

My case is plain and simple, obviously the card did not sell to a legit buyer, therefore why should I pay commission to Brent when all he did was have it "sold" to hide the card, thus we see now the card is no longer in the PSA POP Report.

John, If Brent was the owner of the card when he sold it to Cortney he made a lot more than 24k on this card. 75,000 - 6,500= $68,500 (minus cleaning and reholdering costs.) Plus the $4,000 commission he made off of you

[slidekellyslide]

They're Teflon, bro. Nothing will change.

I'll bet Doug Allen and Bill Mastro thought they were Teflon too.

[Whodunit]

Someone making more than someone else isnt really cause to get a commission back. Making $1300+ on a card in the matter of a month or so is a lot of money for most of us.

However, returning the money you got on the card and getting the card back puts everyone in the most fairest spot. Assuming the buyer of the card was real and wants the sale canceled.

You could then pursue the auction house in which you bought the card and they could pursue the consignor who could pursue anyone manipulated the value of the card. It goes down the line, taking a bigger profit from sale from someone who made a big profit as a gripe is not the way to go.

Yes, please!!!!! Lets do that. LOL. In the end (from the time it was purchased from REA, doctored and submitted to PSA), Brent is the beginning and the end of this card in it's PSA 7 life. Wouldn't that make him the ultimate responsible party in the matter? Granted there is the person who bought it from Brent (me), Goldin Auctions, who would then refer back to his consignor (me), John (who won it in Goldin) and ultimately back to Brent (who dang sure can't go back on his consignor now).

Now we wait for Phillip Abbot. I know you have something "intelligent" (by that I mean demeaning) or attacking to say b/c you believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and when you can't add things up, you get your panties in a wad and start wildly cussing (refer to the last string of comments directed at me............unless of course Leon made you edit them due to the content or you do so when being called out on it).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yes, please!!!!! Lets do that. LOL. In the end (from the time it was purchased from REA, doctored and submitted to PSA), Brent is the beginning and the end of this card in it's PSA 7 life. Wouldn't that make him the ultimate responsible party in the matter? Granted there is the person who bought it from Brent (me), Goldin Auctions, who would then refer back to his consignor (me), John (who won it in Goldin) and ultimately back to Brent (who dang sure can't go back on his consignor now).

Now we wait for Phillip Abbot. I know you have something "intelligent" (by that I mean demeaning) or attacking to say b/c you believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and when you can't add things up, you get your panties in a wad and start wildly cussing (refer to the last string of comments directed at me............unless of course Leon made you edit them due to the content or you do so when being called out on it).

I agree, its usually really hard to find who caused the issue in the first place (ie. altered the card, stole the card etc) in the art world or collectible world. Thats how it goes though. When people buy things that arent what they paid for due to fraud or whatever they lose money because its hard to prove and get a timeline on what happened on the item. Fake artwork occurs all the time or artwork that was stolen and sold, only to be returned to the rightful owner and the poor guy that paid for the stolen artwork is out the money

If you bought artwork from someone that it turned out was originally stolen from the Nazis, doesnt the original owner or owners family on many occasions have the right to have the artwork back? what about the guy that paid $400,000 for it at auction. What about the consignor of that stolen artwork. This stuff happens more often than you think and it sucks for the people that paid money and are now in chase mode. The chase mode ends when the next victim in the line has no one else to pursue. Example, buyer at auction house goes after auction house, auction house goes after consignor, consignor goes after the person that sold them the item, that person goes after the next guy. There are law implications as well that may limit things, but just giving a general discussion.

With that being said, it does appear on the issue on subject card, we are able to trace back the origins. So what usually is an almost an impossible process (the chase mode), seems not so impossible in this case.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Now we wait for Phillip Abbot. I know you have something "intelligent" (by that I mean demeaning) or attacking to say b/c you believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and when you can't add things up, you get your panties in a wad and start wildly cussing (refer to the last string of comments directed at me............unless of course Leon made you edit them due to the content or you do so when being called out on it).

I am far from sub-intelligent. Like I mentioned, at one time I backed your opinion/story. You lost that ground.

I now believe you are part of the problem, as noted in that post, because of you are withholding facts you have said you have, while making ridiculous excuses, now on 2 occasions. Period.

On with it, or on with you.

[2dueces]

For the uninformed, are there pictures of this card? Or have they disappeared too?

[rainier2004]

.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Hey quick question. How can we tell this is the same card? I'm curious. Thanks

[Leon]

easiest for me is centering...almost like fingerprints on pre-war....

Hey quick question. How can we tell this is the same card? I'm curious. Thanks

[Batpig]

You know, now that I'm looking at it again, while the card looks better in some regards, there are obvious new flaws that I would have thought would prevent a 7. There's the weird stripe pattern and the ink for his name appears damaged and has bled somewhat.

[rainier2004]

You know, now that I'm looking at it again, while the card looks better in some regards, there are obvious new flaws that I would have thought would prevent a 7. There's the weird stripe pattern and the ink for his name appears damaged and has bled somewhat.

Just a lower res scan, I don't think any ink bled its just blurry in the scan.

There are still traces of the smudge though, still wouldn't think it would get a 7.

[bn2cardz]

Hey quick question. How can we tell this is the same card? I'm curious. Thanks

If you changed the brightness/contrast of the card you can see that there is still slight shading on the "clean" card that corresponds to the original.

[T205 GB]

Hey quick question. How can we tell this is the same card? I'm curious. Thanks

You can also see the tape stains on the 4 corners still too!

[slidekellyslide]

You can also see the tape stains on the 4 corners still too!

Yep, those are the fingerprints of this card. No way to deny this is the same exact card when seeing that.

[Sean]

Are you referring to the scammer that bought the Green Cobb as a novelty item and then got caught trying to sell it as real? I believe his ebay ID has realtopps in it. That person has been caught doing several shady things and I would not trust anything they(man/wife) said.

Hey Ben, the guy you're referring to goes by Toppsaholic on eBay. On Net54 he calls himself Realtoppsaholic.

[PhillipAbbott79]

I am curious to know what can be obtained via general inquiry by calling PSA and inquiring about the cert and the cards history.

[Brent Huigens]

The purpose of this post is to share with the group the final status of the '36 DiMaggio card.

While I realize there will always be skeptics, here are the facts. We will not address this issue again after this post.

1) PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client. Though we have and always will maintain the confidentiality of our clients, ultimately, we have learned a valuable lesson in keeping an appropriate distance between ourselves and our clients especially around purchasing cards on their behalf.

2) While the auction was live, and when the concerns over restoration were raised by this board, we overnighted the card to Joe Orlando of PSA who had his team verify that the grade of 7 was accurate. This was done through submission number 5751226 and it was received by PSA on 2/7/2017.

3) The card was purchased by a very legitimate buyer based in the Southeastern US. The purchase was paid for promptly, and our team shipped the card to the buyer just like any other purchase. Stating that the sale was illegitimate is incorrect.

4) After the card was sold, PSA reached out to PWCC to express their interest in reconsidering their assessment of the card. After deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided that they wanted to remove the item from the registry. This decision was made while the card was still in the possession of the buyer. According to PSA, this is standard policy to address cards in circulation they no longer wish to recognize.

5) Following PSA's decision to remove the item from the registry, PWCC has been in communication with the buyer and made it clear that we would accept a return of the card for a full refund.

6) Last evening the buyer decided to return the card. When PWCC receives the return, we will refund the buyer's payment. Because PWCC was the entity that got the card graded (albeit on behalf of a client), PWCC is shouldering the costs of the loss.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[Snapolit1]

The purpose of this post is to share with the group the final status of the '36 DiMaggio card.

While I realize there will always be skeptics, here are the facts. We will not address this issue again after this post.

1) PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client. Though we have and always will maintain the confidentiality of our clients, ultimately, we have learned a valuable lesson in keeping an appropriate distance between ourselves and our clients especially around purchasing cards on their behalf.

2) While the auction was live, and when the concerns over restoration were raised by this board, we overnighted the card to Joe Orlando of PSA who had his team verify that the grade of 7 was accurate. This was done through submission number 5751226 and it was received by PSA on 2/7/2017.

3) The card was purchased by a very legitimate buyer based in the Southeastern US. The purchase was paid for promptly, and our team shipped the card to the buyer just like any other purchase. Stating that the sale was illegitimate is incorrect.

4) After the card was sold, PSA reached out to PWCC to express their interest in reconsidering their assessment of the card. After deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided that they wanted to remove the item from the registry. This decision was made while the card was still in the possession of the buyer. According to PSA, this is standard policy to address cards in circulation they no longer wish to recognize.

5) Following PSA's decision to remove the item from the registry, PWCC has been in communication with the buyer and made it clear that we would accept a return of the card for a full refund.

6) Last evening the buyer decided to return the card. When PWCC receives the return, we will refund the buyer's payment. Because PWCC was the entity that got the card graded (albeit on behalf of a client), PWCC is shouldering the costs of the loss.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

None of this done to explain anything other than why we will see the card again soon in another upcoming PWCC auction (likely with another grade).

"PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client." No idea what that means. PWCC purchases a card from REA for Client 1 and then submits the card, and gets it regraded, and then resells the card on behalf of Client 2? Huh? Well who soaked the card? And how did the card get from one PWCC client to another. All smells terrible to me.

[Whodunit]

The purpose of this post is to share with the group the final status of the '36 DiMaggio card.

While I realize there will always be skeptics, here are the facts. We will not address this issue again after this post.

1) PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client. Though we have and always will maintain the confidentiality of our clients, ultimately, we have learned a valuable lesson in keeping an appropriate distance between ourselves and our clients especially around purchasing cards on their behalf.

2) While the auction was live, and when the concerns over restoration were raised by this board, we overnighted the card to Joe Orlando of PSA who had his team verify that the grade of 7 was accurate. This was done through submission number 5751226 and it was received by PSA on 2/7/2017.

3) The card was purchased by a very legitimate buyer based in the Southeastern US. The purchase was paid for promptly, and our team shipped the card to the buyer just like any other purchase. Stating that the sale was illegitimate is incorrect.

4) After the card was sold, PSA reached out to PWCC to express their interest in reconsidering their assessment of the card. After deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided that they wanted to remove the item from the registry. This decision was made while the card was still in the possession of the buyer. According to PSA, this is standard policy to address cards in circulation they no longer wish to recognize.

5) Following PSA's decision to remove the item from the registry, PWCC has been in communication with the buyer and made it clear that we would accept a return of the card for a full refund.

6) Last evening the buyer decided to return the card. When PWCC receives the return, we will refund the buyer's payment. Because PWCC was the entity that got the card graded (albeit on behalf of a client), PWCC is shouldering the costs of the loss.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

Brent sold me the card after National on '15 after it was shopped around by multiple big names in this hobby. When it didnt sell for the asking price at National, Brent approached me with the deal that we made. I will directly dispute the fact that they say that Brent never owned the card. His words to me were that it was his and that he thought it would fit well in my collection EVEN THOUGH HE HATED TO LET IT GO.....key phrase "the card is mine and ill let you have it for 75k, but please keep the sale quiet."

Brent, i have all the facts from the purchase. You won it, you had it doctored and you sold it to me stating that IT WAS YOUR CARD. I dont delete 75k documentation, texts, emails, accounting, etc. I think ive proved that via another thread regarding this card. Would you like to see the messages from Betsy while you were on a few of your biweekly vacations......when she said you went fishing with your dad? Those messages are interesting.

It is exactly for times like this that I let people draw their own conclusions about me. Apparently you thought that a backwoods AL redneck wouldnt keep records.

How many times did i have to correct your evaluation of my account when i was consigning over 250k/mo with you? Of those times, how many times was your math off to the point that i had to tell you that according to my records, I OWED YOU more than you accounted for. Did you never pick up on how deep my records go when i took every month to the penny?

I still have about 3 yrs of spreadsheets and a nice little text where i won a jordan 10, the holder was tampered with and you asked that i return it to you. You refunded my money, but didnt tell me for over a yr that the card wasnt actually the card psa graded.....that someone had pulled the 10 and inserted a 9. Im sure you try to keep as much of that stuff as quiet as you can as well.

Try again.

[bigfish]

The purpose of this post is to share with the group the final status of the '36 DiMaggio card.

While I realize there will always be skeptics, here are the facts. We will not address this issue again after this post.

1) PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client. Though we have and always will maintain the confidentiality of our clients, ultimately, we have learned a valuable lesson in keeping an appropriate distance between ourselves and our clients especially around purchasing cards on their behalf.

2) While the auction was live, and when the concerns over restoration were raised by this board, we overnighted the card to Joe Orlando of PSA who had his team verify that the grade of 7 was accurate. This was done through submission number 5751226 and it was received by PSA on 2/7/2017.

3) The card was purchased by a very legitimate buyer based in the Southeastern US. The purchase was paid for promptly, and our team shipped the card to the buyer just like any other purchase. Stating that the sale was illegitimate is incorrect.

4) After the card was sold, PSA reached out to PWCC to express their interest in reconsidering their assessment of the card. After deliberation with PWCC, PSA decided that they wanted to remove the item from the registry. This decision was made while the card was still in the possession of the buyer. According to PSA, this is standard policy to address cards in circulation they no longer wish to recognize.

5) Following PSA's decision to remove the item from the registry, PWCC has been in communication with the buyer and made it clear that we would accept a return of the card for a full refund.

6) Last evening the buyer decided to return the card. When PWCC receives the return, we will refund the buyer's payment. Because PWCC was the entity that got the card graded (albeit on behalf of a client), PWCC is shouldering the costs of the loss.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC


huh???

Every post you make seems to make your position weaker. Eventually you will understand that most people aren't stupid.

Are you shaking a magic eightball before you make a response?

[pencil1974]

Hey Ben, the guy you're referring to goes by Toppsaholic on eBay. On Net54 he calls himself Realtoppsaholic.

Yeah, I actually sold him that Green Cobb, told him it wasn't right, but he didn't care at the time he said because I think he thought he had a fish on the hook. Then a month later he wanted to give it back because it wasn't legit. He sent me emails that said I don't care if its not legit my wife and I just love cards. So I helped him and his wife part with $1500 as I really didn't think he would be dumb enough to do it. Guess I was wrong and now I giggle a little every time he complains.

Does that make me an ass, sure it does. Do I care, no I don't because some times the bully gets punched in the face. But he threatens every few days to beat me up, blackmail me some how, etc. etc.. I have to say I don't like screwing anyone over but man Toppsaholic was the one person I didn't care if I screwed over or not. Sorry if you don't want to deal with me moving forward, I understand and thats anyone's choice.

[Snapolit1]

Biggest card in their auction currently is a Michael Jordan card. Leading bidder has made 20 bids in 6 months and only retracted 4 of them. This might actually be progress!

[Exhibitman]

"PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client."

This is a very cleverly phrased denial that could be literally true but is telling in what is left out.

Courtney confirmed this sequence of events in the prior thread:

Spring 2015: Sold in REA as an SGC 50 for $6600 to Brent
August 2015: Sold privately by Brent to Courtney as a PSA 7 for $75k
Oct 2016: Consigned by Courtney to Goldin and won by John Perez for $46,800
Feb 2017: Consigned by John to Brent and sold to unknown buyer for $52,300

Now assuming that the quoted statement by PWCC is true, i.e., that PWCC purchased the card from REA for a client and had the card graded and then sold it for another client, it leaves the mysterious clients as the culprits. And of course probity (though not any privilege or legal requirement) prevents PWCC from naming the clients. See, but I suspect that PWCC's client was the ownership of PWCC and that this whole endeavor was a carefully structured effort to make PWCC a cut-out between yourselves and the card so that PWCC could plausibly deny ownership and blame everything on mystery clients who bought an SGC card under PWCC auspices and just a few months later brought a raw card for PWCC to submit and sell. So, Betsy, just to make things crystal clear please confirm unequivocally that no one who had an ownership in PWCC at the time were the PWCC clients you reference. You need not break your fake confidentiality to do so as I am not asking for a name, just a confirmation that the PWCC ownership isn't the mystery client.

But before you respond please ask your attorney to brief you on the concept of a "declaration against interest"; may be useful information to have before answering.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Yeah, I actually sold him that Green Cobb, told him it wasn't right, but he didn't care at the time he said because I think he thought he had a fish on the hook. Then a month later he wanted to give it back because it wasn't legit. He sent me emails that said I don't care if its not legit my wife and I just love cards. So I helped him and his wife part with $1500 as I really didn't think he would be dumb enough to do it. Guess I was wrong and now I giggle a little every time he complains.

Does that make me an ass, sure it does. Do I care, no I don't because some times the bully gets punched in the face. But he threatens every few days to beat me up, blackmail me some how, etc. etc.. I have to say I don't like screwing anyone over but man Toppsaholic was the one person I didn't care if I screwed over or not. Sorry if you don't want to deal with me moving forward, I understand and thats anyone's choice.

I would love to see a screen shot of those emails, because I have heard the exact opposite. He said that the person who sold it to him, didn't tell him it was fake, and he paid a lot of money for it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I would love to see a screen shot of those emails, because I have heard the exact opposite. He said that the person who sold it to him, didn't tell him it was fake, and he paid a lot of money for it.

Yes I thats what I thought as well..

[Peter_Spaeth]

So PSA specifically blesses this card knowing it's part of a live auction, then weeks later, Joe Orlando is just sitting around, or Reza, or whoever, and they think gee maybe we'd like to revisit that, let's reach out to Brent. Makes no sense to me.

[Snapolit1]

So PSA specifically blesses this card knowing it's part of a live auction, then weeks later, Joe Orlando is just sitting around, or Reza, or whoever, and they think gee maybe we'd like to revisit that, let's reach out to Brent. Makes no sense to me.

Guessing left out of this whole discussion is the part about the buyer threatening to sue PWCC and PSA and blowing the lid off a lot of shenanigans. Just a guess though.

[PhillipAbbott79]

So PSA specifically blesses this card knowing it's part of a live auction, then weeks later, Joe Orlando is just sitting around, or Reza, or whoever, and they think gee maybe we'd like to revisit that, let's reach out to Brent. Makes no sense to me.

Joe Orlando is pretty easy to locate at a card show. I am sure he will be well aware of the issue, if asked about it in person.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joe Orlando is pretty easy to locate at a card show. I am sure he will be well aware of the issue, if asked about it in person.

Joe and Reza obviously, assuming Brent sent the card to them, made a considered decision to confirm the grade. It makes no sense that they would spontaneously change their mind. As Steve says, there must be a good reason. As usual, we aren't getting the whole story, even if there is a grain of truth to parts of it.

[bnorth]

Yeah, I actually sold him that Green Cobb, told him it wasn't right, but he didn't care at the time he said because I think he thought he had a fish on the hook. Then a month later he wanted to give it back because it wasn't legit. He sent me emails that said I don't care if its not legit my wife and I just love cards. So I helped him and his wife part with $1500 as I really didn't think he would be dumb enough to do it. Guess I was wrong and now I giggle a little every time he complains.

Does that make me an ass, sure it does. Do I care, no I don't because some times the bully gets punched in the face. But he threatens every few days to beat me up, blackmail me some how, etc. etc.. I have to say I don't like screwing anyone over but man Toppsaholic was the one person I didn't care if I screwed over or not. Sorry if you don't want to deal with me moving forward, I understand and thats anyone's choice.

He sent me several of those threatening messages also.:D I called him out on that Cobb and a few other scams he was trying to pull. He is known for knowingly buying bad items and trying to sell them as good. Very similar to Battlefield but without the photoshopping.

He quit messaging/threatening me after he bought a trimmed T206 and was trying to sell it as good. Guess he could no longer claim innocence after I sent him links to the auction listing that he bought it from that clearly listed it as trimmed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Joe and Reza obviously, assuming Brent sent the card to them, made a considered decision to confirm the grade. It makes no sense that they would spontaneously change their mind. As Steve says, there must be a good reason. As usual, we aren't getting the whole story, even if there is a grain of truth to parts of it.

Right, if they already re-considered and confirmed the grade during the PWCC auction..why change their mind now...they already would of been aware of the past sales of the card and what it looked like when they confirmed the grade..

however, in the end, the buyer of the card did get his money back and pwcc apparently is eating the entire purchase price of the card as they paid the consignor (who made $1300+ on the sale) and not asking for money back from the consignor so there is no real victim here as far as the pwcc auction..

[pencil1974]

Yes I thats what I thought as well..

Something like this work? Or maybe this? So defend your dude man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

huh???

Every post you make seems to make your position weaker. Eventually you will understand that most people aren't stupid.

Are you shaking a magic eightball before you make a response?

This may still be my favorite credibility burner, though I am biased. Posts 76 and then 78.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1196475#post1196475

[1952boyntoncollector]

Something like this work? Or maybe this? So defend your dude man.

need more than that...which cobb are they referring too.......where is the actual payment of $1500 knowing the card is not real...any other correspondece after that..im assuming the sale was not on ebay....there may be more emails...they also not technically agreeing the card is fake...would want to see what you wrote to them too

[botn]

Since Joe is in a mood to write checks and Betsy and Brent are so keen on cleaning up the hobby, Joe might want to take a closer look at Brent's submission below that the DiMaggio was part of. Many of the cards bumped and before pics are posted on this thread...http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837 Brent and Betsy ought to be more careful whose cards they are submitting and then selling. :D

24692740 1911 D304 Brunners Bread Ty Cobb PSA 4.5 Sold by PWCC 12/6/15
24692741 1915 Cracker Jack #105 Joe Jackson PSA 3 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692742 No Grade
24692743 No Grade
24692744 1933 Goudey #29 Jimmy Foxx PSA 5 No Record of Sale
24692745 1933 Goudey #149 Babe Ruth PSA 5.5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692746 1934 Goudey #61 Lou Gehrig PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692747 1935 National Chicle #34 Bronko Nagurski PSA 3.5 Sold by PWCC 10/18/15
24692748 1936 World Wide Gum #36 Joe DiMaggio PSA 7 Sold Privately by PWCC
24692749 1940 Play Ball #1 Joe DiMaggio PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692750 1940 Play Ball #27 Ted Williams PSA 6 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692751 1941 Play Ball #14 Ted Williams PSA 6 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692752 1941 Play Ball #71 Joe DiMaggio PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692753 No Grade
24692754 1957 Topps #95 Mickey Mantle PSA 8.5 Sold by PWCC 10/8/15

[pencil1974]

need more than that...which cobb are they referring too.......where is the actual payment of $1500 knowing the card is not real...any other correspondece after that..im assuming the sale was not on ebay....there may be more emails...they also not technically agreeing the card is fake...would want to see what you wrote to them too

I'm sorry I'm not here to indulge you. But if you say you don't care if a card is real or not, then you don't care if its fake either. Can't have both. Mic drop I'm out! Look on the bright side man at least I don't bash you like everyone else on here does...but don't push me too far. ;)

[Republicaninmass]

I had to laugh thinking the consignor to REA asked Brent to shill it up... and ended up winning it.


A vicious circle

[aloondilana]

Jake,
Why do you always got to dispute everyone on this site?
You make yourself look like a complete idiot!
Brad Pencil is one of the nicest guys in this hobby and he is not the con artist in this situation.
Read the darn eBay messages, they can't be edited. What the hell is your problem?

I just don't understand your MO on this site. You are always on it and post about every piece of nonsense there is.
Don't you got anything to do in your life?

Your show is getting stale, you are barking up the wrong tree all the freakin time!!!

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Jake,
Why do you always got to dispute everyone on this site?
You make yourself look like a complete idiot!
Brad Pencil is one of the nicest guys in this hobby and he is not the con artist in this situation.
Read the darn eBay messages, they can't be edited. What the hell is your problem?

I just don't understand your MO on this site. You are always on it and post about every piece of nonsense there is.
Don't you got anything to do in your life?

Your show is getting stale, you are barking up the wrong tree all the freakin time!!!


+1000000000000 to the first sentences.

[orly57]

need more than that...which cobb are they referring too.......where is the actual payment of $1500 knowing the card is not real...any other correspondece after that..im assuming the sale was not on ebay....there may be more emails...they also not technically agreeing the card is fake...would want to see what you wrote to them too

Brad Pencil's reputation really should not and cannot be questioned. Don't go down this road Jake. There are more than enough scumbags in this hobby for you to attack to even consider F u cking with Brad. That guy is as honest and decent as they come, and I am proud to call him a friend. He didn't have to come out and say he sold them the card, and yet he did. So what is your theory exactly? That they offered to buy ANOTHER COBB off brad that they knew was fake?
GTFOH defending some shady ebayer over a respected member of this board.

[Big Six]

"Archive"- funniest.. thread.. ever.



I seriously considered requesting a profile name change to "Archive" a while back during another dust up...then I figured Leon had to put up with enough crap, he didn't need my smart ass to deal with...

Long live Archive...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tabe]

I have to say I don't like screwing anyone over but man Toppsaholic was the one person I didn't care if I screwed over or not.

Brad Pencil's reputation really should not and cannot be questioned.

Somehow these two things don't seem to agree with each other.

[swarmee]

6) Last evening the buyer decided to return the card. When PWCC receives the return, we will refund the buyer's payment. Because PWCC was the entity that got the card graded (albeit on behalf of a client), PWCC is shouldering the costs of the loss.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

I know you said this was the last post on the thread, but there are still real questions to be asked/answered. Here is mine: will the card now be returned to PSA under their insurance policy and bought back down to the original price/grade range and then either cracked or reholdered? If the card is still out there as a slabbed PSA 7, then it's still a problem. And theoretically, if PSA is liable for the incorrect grading, you could recoup 90% of your costs by busting it down to a PSA Authentic or mid-grade and taking the difference in a check from PSA.

[Batpig]

I'm sure PWCC won't be completely left holding the bag on this. A bump or two and a wink can easily make up 50k. Just need to make sure the card(s) involved aren't as easily identified from past sales!

[glynparson]

John, psa does not refund the submitter of a card anything for an incorrect grade. They will reimburse a subsequent buyer but not the original submitter. I know it seems odd but I have had this happen to me a couple times in the 25 years I have been dealing with psa. They thank you and give you back the grading fee but nothing for the card. You just get it back correctly graded and a refund of the grading fees. I have even experienced this within the last year. It is still their policy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So psa should be the one paying the buyer who overpaid due to psa,s mistake according to what we have been told.

Again, i think we have not been told the whole story or even necessarily the truth.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'm sorry I'm not here to indulge you. But if you say you don't care if a card is real or not, then you don't care if its fake either. Can't have both. Mic drop I'm out! Look on the bright side man at least I don't bash you like everyone else on here does...but don't push me too far. ;)

I do care if the card is real, not having both...would just like to have one! Showing one picture without any before or after context and refusing to provide doesnt look good. Even selling a fake card for $1500 looks really shady. When it comes to bashing, i think its pot calling the kettle black in this case but thats not really fair to me either. .i never accused of selling a fake card.. I have had arguments whether 2 home runs and a double is better than hitting for the cycle but thats nothing compared to being accused of committing fraud..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Brad Pencil's reputation really should not and cannot be questioned. Don't go down this road Jake. There are more than enough scumbags in this hobby for you to attack to even consider F u cking with Brad. That guy is as honest and decent as they come, and I am proud to call him a friend. He didn't have to come out and say he sold them the card, and yet he did. So what is your theory exactly? That they offered to buy ANOTHER COBB off brad that they knew was fake?
GTFOH defending some shady ebayer over a respected member of this board.

I not defending toppsholoc at all. I agree Topps is the worst ebay seller in the world. So your post makes no sense. Now knowing Toppsholic is the worst ebay seller in the world (thus i am not defending some shady seller )would you sell him a fake card for $1500? No one would have a right to question you for doing that? Also when you comment about you dont care if you screw someone over (as another poster in this thread quoted you), because whoever the seller is, well I do care if it was me. I just wouldnt do the deal with toppholic or whether it was battlefield selliing a great graded card. That could be just me that doesnt do that , but I dont think its ridiculous for me to questions others that do.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake,
Why do you always got to dispute everyone on this site?
You make yourself look like a complete idiot!
Brad Pencil is one of the nicest guys in this hobby and he is not the con artist in this situation.
Read the darn eBay messages, they can't be edited. What the hell is your problem?

I just don't understand your MO on this site. You are always on it and post about every piece of nonsense there is.
Don't you got anything to do in your life?

Your show is getting stale, you are barking up the wrong tree all the freakin time!!!

John, you are upset that you didnt make more on the sale of the altered card and i get that. You made several posts that the net54 threads impacted the final sale value. Did you not? However you did make $1300+, and the card was removed from the PSA registery. You didnt eat the loss, PWCC did on your consignment. The card ultimately was returned back to PWCC, so not sure what your argument is about people impacting the auction when its obvious the auction was unfair to whoever bought the card. Lets not pretend you are not biased no matter what I put on here but i do not think anything i put here on this thread was unfair. You are free to point out anything you think was unfair that i put on this thread and have others chime in.

When i see comments about 'dont you have to do anything in your life' it sort of implies you dont have any real argument. You always appear to be in disputes with others on this board.

[aloondilana]

Jake,
I hate to tell ya, you are NOT the judge and jury of this hobby!
No one really gives a rats ass about what you think.
It's just annoying as hell to constantly read your whining, especially about subjects that are none of your business.

I understand you are a semi struggling lawyer, do you really think practicing "debate" on message boards is gonna help your career?
It's not!

It just makes you look like a jack ass.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake,
I hate to tell ya, you are NOT the judge and jury of this hobby!
No one really gives a rats ass about what you think.
It's just annoying as hell to constantly read your whining, especially about subjects that are none of your business.

I understand you are a semi struggling lawyer, do you really think practicing "debate" on message boards is gonna help your career?
It's not!

It just makes you look like a jack ass.

I am not the judge and jury and I agree. Neither are you. Just because you are rich does not mean you can be a bully without being questioned. I dont bring anyone's profession into the post whether you are accurate or not but i not going down that road.

So your post says the selling of your card in the PWCC auction is none of my business. Why post on here then, keep it private. What about the other posters on net54, is it their business or none of their business as well.

I do notice you did not address my prior post at all in regards to its content You just attacked. Maybe you can say that I have no life again. (Some people would say people responding to my posts also may have no life)

[PhillipAbbott79]

(some people would say people responding to my posts also may have no life)

lol

[ruth-gehrig]

(Some people would say people responding to my posts also may have no life)

Yet some others would say they have difficulty reading through grammar and punctuation errors.

[Whodunit]

Jake,
I hate to tell ya, you are NOT the judge and jury of this hobby!
No one really gives a rats ass about what you think.
It's just annoying as hell to constantly read your whining, especially about subjects that are none of your business.

I understand you are a semi struggling lawyer, do you really think practicing "debate" on message boards is gonna help your career?
It's not!

It just makes you look like a jack ass.

I can see the blood pressure rising , John. Im not going to voice my opinion on that sale or the final value from pwcc, but your comment to Jake about made me spit my coffe out laughing. Get him, John!! Lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

[Whodunit]

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

Excellent point!!!!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

I can see the blood pressure rising , John. Im not going to voice my opinion on that sale or the final value from pwcc, but your comment to Jake about made me spit my coffe out laughing. Get him, John!! Lol.

Still waiting on the photos that you said you couldnt download from your phone. Im sure there are a lot of people laughing right now....

No offense but i dont think many net54 posters would be looking for you to endorse any of their posts...

Lets get to issue in hand like Peter S. states...

[PhillipAbbott79]

Still waiting on the photos that you said you couldnt download from your phone. Im sure there are a lot of people laughing right now....

Lets get to issue in hand like Peter S. states...

+1. Don't hold your breath. He said he got them off of his phone. He can't release something he doesn't have.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?


If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?


If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

If after all that Brent did not make them aware of the controversy when he sent it in, and the reason for doing so, then shame on him. And I doubt PSA was unaware of it even if Brent didn't say anything, do you really think nobody made Joe aware of the thread here?

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

I think Jake might be secretly working undercover :cool: for PSA/PWCC. Just kidding!

[Leon]

I agree with you David. So far, I feel PWCC has done the right things to make things as right as they can be. :) A lot of the other stuff seems to be guys whining over speculating and losing money. Just not a ton of sympathy out there for that. On the other hand, if fraud or lies are proven against anyone, things can change. But I spoke with PWCC quite some time ago about the card in question. If I recall correctly I told them, if it were me, I think the deal should be undone at the buyer's discretion. It has been and still the griping and conspiracies..oy vey..move onto the next speculation...

..And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer. That being said, to me it didn't look like any worse of a grade than I have seen on a daily basis. :) How is that for an underhanded compliment and back-stab in the same fell swoop?

**of course PWCC is an advertiser but it's not like they are being protected, this is just my opinion so far....

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?

If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC never should have sold the card without full disclosure of its history of alteration/restoration. It's that simple. The card's history was a clearly material fact, known fully by Brent who personally was involved. How has PWCC done the right things here, Leon? Is a fraudulent omission a "right thing"?

[Leon]

I think they sold a card without full disclosure but it was a graded card. They undid the deal or allowed it to be undone. That was the right thing to do, imo. And I am done as I stated my opinion already. Unless there is something different I will just give the Gorsuch stare. :)

PWCC never should have sold the card without full disclosure of its history of alteration/restoration. It's that simple. The card's history was a clearly material fact, known fully by Brent who personally was involved. How has PWCC done the right things here, Leon? Is a fraudulent omission a "right thing"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

To beat the horse again, that it was graded does not excuse the absence of disclosure, particularly where Brent knew the grade was the result of alteration/restoration and that the card had been in a three grades lower holder previously. And I don't think we have the full story on post-sale events.

Oh, and let me add...
:)

[1952boyntoncollector]

To beat the horse again, that it was graded does not excuse the absence of disclosure, particularly where Brent knew the grade was the result of alteration/restoration and that the card had been in a three grades lower holder previously. And I don't think we have the full story on post-sale events.

Oh, and let me add...
:)


I have seen in some auction houses that a card used to be a SGC7 and the card now is a PSA 6.......basically when its a positive thing for them to disclose....

[bobbyw8469]

I have seen in some auction houses that a card used to be a SGC7 and the card now is a PSA 6.......basically when its a positive thing for them to disclose....

Just a simple question and maybe someone knows the answer. In the comic book community, a comic book can be restored and given a better appearance. The graders can detect all the restoration done to a comic and give it the applicable grade with a purple label that basically means "restoration has taken place". Are the graders of cards unable to detect the restoration techniques? I am in the camp, that I see nothing wrong with restoring a card, as long as it is taking away something that shouldn't have been there to begin with from the factory (surface wrinkle, ink mark, etc).

[Moonlight Graham]

As an outsider, and hindsight being 20/20, I really don't understand why Brent didn't just kill the auction when he saw how much was being made of the grade, etc. Why chance having to eat that kind of money if things go bad, like they did. Especially if you compare your commission to the amount you may have to refund, it seems like a no-brainer. Brent should know that nothing ever gets by this board, there are way too many knowledgeable people on here. Also, I don't get why PWCC would post a couple of comments and in the second one state that this is the last time you're going to address this issue. It seems like a really big issue with potential fraud, and if you are just an innocent auction house, why not answer as many questions and be as transparent as you possibly can? Again, I'm new to this issue and these are just my 2 cents.

Joe K

[Batpig]

As an outsider, and hindsight being 20/20, I really don't understand why Brent didn't just kill the auction when he saw how much was being made of the grade, etc. Why chance having to eat that kind of money if things go bad, like they did. Especially if you compare your commission to the amount you may have to refund, it seems like a no-brainer. Brent should know that nothing ever gets by this board, there are way too many knowledgeable people on here. Also, I don't get why PWCC would post a couple of comments and in the second one state that this is the last time you're going to address this issue. It seems like a really big issue with potential fraud, and if you are just an innocent auction house, why not answer as many questions and be as transparent as you possibly can? Again, I'm new to this issue and these are just my 2 cents.

Joe K

Because lawyers.

[cincyredlegs]

I agree with you David. So far, I feel PWCC has done the right things to make things as right as they can be. :) A lot of the other stuff seems to be guys whining over speculating and losing money. Just not a ton of sympathy out there for that. On the other hand, if fraud or lies are proven against anyone, things can change. But I spoke with PWCC quite some time ago about the card in question. If I recall correctly I told them, if it were me, I think the deal should be undone at the buyer's discretion. It has been and still the griping and conspiracies..oy vey..move onto the next speculation...

..And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer. That being said, to me it didn't look like any worse of a grade than I have seen on a daily basis. :) How is that for an underhanded compliment and back-stab in the same fell swoop?

**of course PWCC is an advertiser but it's not like they are being protected, this is just my opinion so far....


It seems to me PWCC only did "the right thing" after Courtney blew the lid off of this issue. I truly believe PWCC would not have done ANYTHING if Courtney had not come on here. So, I won't give PWCC the "easy pass".

We have similar threads/issues over their years where people were caught doing shady things and only did "the right thing" after getting called out on here.

Mark

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an outsider, and hindsight being 20/20, I really don't understand why Brent didn't just kill the auction when he saw how much was being made of the grade, etc. Why chance having to eat that kind of money if things go bad, like they did. Especially if you compare your commission to the amount you may have to refund, it seems like a no-brainer. Brent should know that nothing ever gets by this board, there are way too many knowledgeable people on here. Also, I don't get why PWCC would post a couple of comments and in the second one state that this is the last time you're going to address this issue. It seems like a really big issue with potential fraud, and if you are just an innocent auction house, why not answer as many questions and be as transparent as you possibly can? Again, I'm new to this issue and these are just my 2 cents.

Joe K

That's not the PWCC way. Read the old posts I linked above. And it works, because ultimately "stuff" trumps transparency.

[Batpig]

One of the things that may be overlooked here is that it appears that PSA is stating (without actually stating) that before and after photos are in fact enough to deem a card "Evidence of cleaning", regardless of a lack of chemical smell or other indicators.

[asoriano]

Jake,
I hate to tell ya, you are NOT the judge and jury of this hobby!
No one really gives a rats ass about what you think.
It's just annoying as hell to constantly read your whining, especially about subjects that are none of your business.

I understand you are a semi struggling lawyer, do you really think practicing "debate" on message boards is gonna help your career?
It's not!

It just makes you look like a jack ass.

I added Jake to my ignore list about six months ago. Best decision I've ever made.

Tu.rner Eng.le

[Stampsfan]

I know you said this was the last post on the thread, but there are still real questions to be asked/answered. Here is mine: will the card now be returned to PSA under their insurance policy and bought back down to the original price/grade range and then either cracked or reholdered?

If true, I wonder if they could then ship it back to SGC, so SGC could put it back into the "4" holder it apparently belongs in?

Nah, SGC cannot seem to provide a proper grade for their cards...

;)

[Peter_Spaeth]

If true, I wonder if they could then ship it back to SGC, so SGC could put it back into the "4" holder it apparently belongs in?

Nah, SGC cannot seem to provide a proper grade for their cards...

;)

It belonged in that holder before it was altered. Not so sure now.

[gnaz01]

i truly believe pwcc would not have done anything if courtney had not come on here. So, i won't give pwcc the "easy pass"

totally agree!!!

[slidekellyslide]

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

Are you new here?

[Beastmode]

One of the things that may be overlooked here is that it appears that PSA is stating (without actually stating) that before and after photos are in fact enough to deem a card "Evidence of cleaning", regardless of a lack of chemical smell or other indicators.

++This is true. The 2nd item overlooked is the fact this crap happens every day at the AH's and nobody seems to give a hoot.

[rainier2004]

Technically the card is now altered and belongs in an authentic slab.

I would assume PSA detected nothing...why would they slab it a 7 if they had?

What a shit storm...and what are the odds that this is the tip of the iceberg?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I added Jake to my ignore list about six months ago. Best decision I've ever made.

Tu.rner Eng.le

Yes lets endorse John.....John did say this about the Dimaggio card that he was the consignor while it was still being bid on with PWCC in that famous thread people are referencing..

"Whoever cleaned it up did the hobby a huge favor. Great card either way"


Is there anyone on net54 that agrees with that statement? I will assume nobody does unless someone posts otherwise.

Correct me if I am wrong and he did not say this in that thread. Yes hes doing the card community a favor so lets support him... Yes later on he did disclose he was the owner of the card so he may of had a bias. So its a situation where Bias is involved and its not Len I am talking about.

[slidekellyslide]

I wonder how much trouble Doug Allen had getting cards past PSA that he had worked on? I wonder if PSA looks past their "big" customers? I honestly don't believe that any of what is going on is on the up and up. The HUGE dollar amounts between a 7 to 8 to 9 to GEM MINT have got to be very tempting. When the number a grader slaps on a slab pushes a card up tens of thousands of dollars when the difference between a 9 and 10 is difficult for anyone to see...I don't see how there isn't fraud happening unless every grader is Mother Theresa.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I wonder how much trouble Doug Allen had getting cards past PSA that he had worked on? I wonder if PSA looks past their "big" customers? I honestly don't believe that any of what is going on is on the up and up. The HUGE dollar amounts between a 7 to 8 to 9 to GEM MINT have got to be very tempting. When the number a grader slaps on a slab pushes a card up tens of thousands of dollars when the difference between a 9 and 10 is difficult for anyone to see...I don't see how there isn't fraud happening unless every grader is Mother Theresa.

Well whoever is making the cards better is doing the hobby a favor some would argue, at least the submitter would argue and anyone who buys the card trying to sell it at a profit

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder how much trouble Doug Allen had getting cards past PSA that he had worked on? I wonder if PSA looks past their "big" customers? I honestly don't believe that any of what is going on is on the up and up. The HUGE dollar amounts between a 7 to 8 to 9 to GEM MINT have got to be very tempting. When the number a grader slaps on a slab pushes a card up tens of thousands of dollars when the difference between a 9 and 10 is difficult for anyone to see...I don't see how there isn't fraud happening unless every grader is Mother Theresa.

All submitters are equal, but some are probably more equal than others.

[swarmee]

And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer.

Where did you read/hear this? It is not in Brent's post. That's why I asked the question as to what the end state of the card would be.

[nsaddict]

Well, the SMR on this card in PSA 1 is 950 (authentics not listed). I would be willing to help the hobby and buy this infamous card at "their" valuation :)

[Leon]

I assumed (yikes) this from what I read, I don't know if it is there or not, personally. I thought I read it got cracked out of the holder (and therefore wouldn't be there) but am not wading to find out. Again, if it is still in the 7 holder and on the report, so be it. I don't really care that much.

Where did you read/hear this? It is not in Brent's post. That's why I asked the question as to what the end state of the card would be.

[MikeGarcia]

All submitters are equal, but some are probably more equal than others.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1894NEWJOE7_NEW.JPG

..I have never had much contact with any of the brass at PSA.... except for a couples rounds of golf at Pebble Beach with Joe O. ( Oh ,and yeah --there was that crazy weekend at Catalina....)

...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent did say it had been removed from the registry.
"PSA decided to remove the card from the registry due to concerns raised by the hobby about the restoration."

[swarmee]

I was questioning the cracking out of the card. It sounds like the buyer hasn't sent it back yet.

[jfkheat]

I wonder how many soaked cards have been sold by members here without full disclosure.
James

[PhillipAbbott79]

It seems to me PWCC only did "the right thing" after Courtney blew the lid off of this issue. I truly believe PWCC would not have done ANYTHING if Courtney had not come on here.

Mark

I liken it to theft. Someone gets caught stealing something, they return the item, they apologize. Because the item went back to the owner, doesn't mean that a crime or misdemeanor wasn't committed and that there isn't consequences to the actions. The police could still get called, and that person could still be charged.

Regardless of the fact that they ate the commissions, price of the card, the card was pulled from the registry, all does not change the fact that the act actually occurred, and that there should be and could be consequences to that.

[Whodunit]

I wonder how many soaked cards have been sold by members here without full disclosure.
James

Full disclosure? Lol. How abiut ANY disclosure?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Full disclosure? Lol. How abiut ANY disclosure?

James is trying to suggest Brent did nothing different than what people here do. I very much doubt anyone here has had a card chemically treated (a virtual certainty see other thread) and obtained a three grade bump making the card worth 50k plus and then said nothing about it. So no it's not at all the same as soaking a card out of a scrapbook or soaking it in water to remove glue or paper. But carry on with the defense, please.

[Exhibitman]

ignore list

Tu.rner Eng.le

I learn something new every day. That will really shorten certain threads.

[hcv123]

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/Bliggity/forum-image-hosting/50114/goggles

That is the funniest I've seen in a while!!



Spring 2015: Sold in REA as an SGC 50 for $6600 to Brent (according to Betsy from PWCC "for an unnamed client" - a request to confirm the unnamed client has no ownership interest in PWCC has not been responded to)

Question - Has anyone on here had any dialogue with Brent about purchasing cards for them from other AH's? Is this a service he offers or something he has done for anyone?

August 2015: Sold privately by Brent to Courtney as a PSA 7 for $75k (Betsy from PWCC states that this was on behalf of another client (it has not been clarified how the card made it from alleged client 1 to alleged client 2), Courtney the buyer states that Brent represented the card was owned by him personally). It was between the Robert Edward purchase and the Courtney purchase that the card was altered and jumped from an SGC 50 to a PSA 7.

Speculation - Brent had the card altered and submitted to PSA (the submission is fact) and at this point Brent is +$68,400 (less shipping, alteration and grading fees)


Oct 2016: Consigned by Courtney to Goldin and won by John Perez for $46,800

Courtney -$28,200
Brent - +$68,400

Feb 2017: Consigned by John to Brent and sold to unknown buyer for $52,300 (after which according to Betsy from PWCC - buyer returns card to PWCC who is "taking the loss" on the card)

Courtney -$28,200
Brent +$16,100 ($68,400 - $52,300)
John +1,300.


Speculation:

The "loss" on the last sale still leaves Brent +$16,100 from the original sale to Courtney. The card conveniently for PWCC - "disappears". If PWCC is truly innocent, it only makes sense that they go to PSA looking for reimbursement of the sale price - as PSA missed the alteration and $52,300 is A LOT of money........unless PSA would be able to come back and prove that in fact PWCC did or contracted for the alteration - giving them a solid argument not to pay. By not pursuing it, PWCC conveniently avoids this potentially more visible and costly public relations nightmare. I think PWCC has created a story about the "unnamed clients", believing it allows them "plausible deniability". PWCC tries to spin it that they are "doing the right thing" by taking the card back and refunding it's latest purchaser, when it actually conveniently leaves the card in their hands, Brent +$16,100 and Courtney out $28,200 (leaving him starting this thread and understandably upset).

Would be really curious to hear PSA weigh in on the conversation. Unfortunately, I presume PWCC is one of their best customers and they have a vested interest in finding a way to cover their own ass while protecting PWCC.



This situation raises a number of questions:

1) Is it illegal to alter a card, make no representation about it and let a grading company grade do the talking? What if it is ungraded? Some have suggested "removing what is not supposed to be there is okay" - curious to hear opinions - where is the line? soaking to get rid of paper or scrap book residue? removing tape? removing stains? removing creases? whitening? trimming? Coloring? replacing missing pieces? Does it make a difference if the card is $50 or $50,000?

2) I like the idea of doing something similar to what CGC does - a separate color label with details of alteration (these comic books sell for less than unaltered books in the same grade) - Clearly the grading companies have a harder time detecting alteration? - or just choose to ignore it?


2) If PSA's policy is it will not grade cards it determines are altered, then like many have raised, why is the Gretzky Wagner still in the PSA population?

[Bliggity]

That is the funniest I've seen in a while!!

I do what I can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That is the funniest I've seen in a while!!



Spring 2015: Sold in REA as an SGC 50 for $6600 to Brent (according to Betsy from PWCC "for an unnamed client" - a request to confirm the unnamed client has no ownership interest in PWCC has not been responded to)

Question - Has anyone on here had any dialogue with Brent about purchasing cards for them from other AH's? Is this a service he offers or something he has done for anyone?

August 2015: Sold privately by Brent to Courtney as a PSA 7 for $75k (Betsy from PWCC states that this was on behalf of another client (it has not been clarified how the card made it from alleged client 1 to alleged client 2), Courtney the buyer states that Brent represented the card was owned by him personally). It was between the Robert Edward purchase and the Courtney purchase that the card was altered and jumped from an SGC 50 to a PSA 7.

Speculation - Brent had the card altered and submitted to PSA (the submission is fact) and at this point Brent is +$68,400 (less shipping, alteration and grading fees)


Oct 2016: Consigned by Courtney to Goldin and won by John Perez for $46,800

Courtney -$28,200
Brent - +$68,400

Feb 2017: Consigned by John to Brent and sold to unknown buyer for $52,300 (after which according to Betsy from PWCC - buyer returns card to PWCC who is "taking the loss" on the card)

Courtney -$28,200
Brent +$16,100 ($68,400 - $52,300)
John +1,300.


Speculation:

The "loss" on the last sale still leaves Brent +$16,100 from the original sale to Courtney. The card conveniently for PWCC - "disappears". If PWCC is truly innocent, it only makes sense that they go to PSA looking for reimbursement of the sale price - as PSA missed the alteration and $52,300 is A LOT of money........unless PSA would be able to come back and prove that in fact PWCC did or contracted for the alteration - giving them a solid argument not to pay. By not pursuing it, PWCC conveniently avoids this potentially more visible and costly public relations nightmare. I think PWCC has created a story about the "unnamed clients", believing it allows them "plausible deniability". PWCC tries to spin it that they are "doing the right thing" by taking the card back and refunding it's latest purchaser, when it actually conveniently leaves the card in their hands, Brent +$16,100 and Courtney out $28,200 (leaving him starting this thread and understandably upset).

Would be really curious to hear PSA weigh in on the conversation. Unfortunately, I presume PWCC is one of their best customers and they have a vested interest in finding a way to cover their own ass while protecting PWCC.



This situation raises a number of questions:

1) Is it illegal to alter a card, make no representation about it and let a grading company grade do the talking? What if it is ungraded? Some have suggested "removing what is not supposed to be there is okay" - curious to hear opinions - where is the line? soaking to get rid of paper or scrap book residue? removing tape? removing stains? removing creases? whitening? trimming? Coloring? replacing missing pieces? Does it make a difference if the card is $50 or $50,000?

2) I like the idea of doing something similar to what CGC does - a separate color label with details of alteration (these comic books sell for less than unaltered books in the same grade) - Clearly the grading companies have a harder time detecting alteration? - or just choose to ignore it?


2) If PSA's policy is it will not grade cards it determines are altered, then like many have raised, why is the Gretzky Wagner still in the PSA population?

The prior thread has extensive discussions on issue #1. And as far as I know, PSA has never made a determination the Wagner is altered. Mastro acknowledges he trimmed it, but I have not seen PSA acknowledging this.

[irv]

The prior thread has extensive discussions on issue #1. And as far as I know, PSA has never made a determination the Wagner is altered. Mastro acknowledges he trimmed it, but I have not seen PSA acknowledging this.

Nor will they ever!

I think, although this is not breaking news, that the 2 parties being discussed in this thread are more than just acquaintances.

Still a ton of unanswered questions from both parties, and although one has attempted to clear the air, so to speak, the other has been silent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nor will they ever!

I think, although this is not breaking news, that the 2 parties being discussed in this thread are more than just acquaintances.

Still a ton of unanswered questions from both parties, and although one has attempted to clear the air, so to speak, the other has been silent.

PSA is notorious for avoiding public discussion and shutting down dissent on its own board. It seems to be the right judgment, as business is thriving. Similarly, I doubt the issues some of us have with PWCC have much if any impact on its business.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Perhaps if those who sell on EBay, link to the threads here, it may.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Still a ton of unanswered questions from both parties

Not really. I think both parties have explained their side pretty well. Answers only lead to more and more questions. That's pretty obvious. Where does it end? At this point I think we have enough information to draw our own conclusions.

That's just my opinion.

[swarmee]

Again, the main unanswered question is when Brent gets the card back from the buyer, will he crack it out of the PSA 7 case? If not, it's still a problem as PSA has disavowed the card. It could still be sold as a PSA 7 in a private sale, even though it technically isn't anymore.

I would bet PSA and Brent will probably come to a settlement that allows them both to show that the card was removed from the holder and both split the loss. PSA has bought back cards graded in error before when called on it, especially since they're financially liable to losses based on the insurance policy covering their grades.

Another good question is whether or not any of the buyers of the other cards in that submission asked for and received refunds due to the possibility of them having been altered and bumped. If so, those prices in VCP are now bogus, as the sale never actually took place. Or whether the buyers of those cards were even informed about the bumps/possible cleaning.

[PowderedH2O]

I'll ask the stupid question. Comments have been made about soaking being ok if it is with water, but not with other chemicals. So why is one ok and not the other?

To me it is like taking a shower. I can just use water, or I can choose to use shampoo and soap. Either way, it is still just me underneath. Nothing changed. Is a card so much different?

[PhillipAbbott79]

I'll ask the stupid question. Comments have been made about soaking being ok if it is with water, but not with other chemicals. So why is one ok and not the other?

To me it is like taking a shower. I can just use water, or I can choose to use shampoo and soap. Either way, it is still just me underneath. Nothing changed. Is a card so much different?

Yes. Chemicals can cause the paper, ink or other materials to degrade faster and cause physical harm long term, not otherwise seen in the immediate short term. One such similar example may be like rusting. Its not rusty now, but once it starts rusting, it will continue to get worse and worse.

[swarmee]

Not a stupid question, but one that's been asked over and over again on this board and elsewhere. And it's still being debated, but the current accepted practice is that soaking in just water is acceptable, while using chemicals is not.

Some people think erasure is okay and many do not. One of the most open card doctors is a member of this site, and to my knowledge, has never been banned.

Without soaking, high grade vintage cards become almost impossible. With soaking, they can be removed from scrapbooks and present very nicely, and are accepted across the community.

[CobbSpikedMe]

So if Zima and wine coolers aren't cool anymore, I guess you guys are going to tell me my bottles of Boone's are not good anymore too. Damn it!!

[Den*nis O*Brien]

......could still be good if it is vintage 1969 or 1970. And only if it has been stored in an appropriate wine cellar at the correct angle And temperature....with no direct sunlight....or...in the original case in the back of the garage. It could have morphed into ..."The Bomb". Thinking back to 1968 and 1969..Boone's Farm Apple "paired" nicely with a wide assortment of other products.

[clydepepper]

UNCLE already!

Why don't you guys use PMs instead of all this BM?


-

[MikeGarcia]

UNCLE already!

Why don't you guys use PMs instead of all this BM?


-
have a glass of Ripple.....or Tingle...

..

[mark evans]

It seems that the hobby will always have these issues regarding alterations until an agreed upon set of practices is adopted. Since there is no organization to fill this void, maybe next best would be for the more reputable third-party grading companies to consult with major figures in the hobby -- including auction houses, dealers and collectors -- and come up with a set of principles to guide future practices.

[swarmee]

They really already have: Authentic - Altered. All three major grading services use it and 95% of the collectors are okay with it. Some completely ignore cards marked that way, and some use it to buy great looking cards much cheaper than without trimming or cleaning or recoloring or erasures.

If the TPGs can't tell it's been cleaned by non-water solutions, they can't mark it Altered. Altered grades can be priced lower than poors to around PSA 3s, from what I've seen, depending on what the alteration is and how nice the card looks otherwise.

[WWG]

Speaking of our beloved card, hmmm.... Check out the POP Report guys
The card has been removed.
I find it very hard to believe the winner of the card from PWCC
just sent it into PSA and asked to remove the card from the holder.
So who really won this card?
That's the question of the day.

Seems to me I should be reimbursed the commission I paid on this.

So PSA removes themselves from this mess by deleting the card from their Pop report and cert. verification but still lists the card in their past auction sales. So now what is the true value of this card in PSA 7/SGC 7?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I dunno but I wish I had bought the Dean in PSA6 in 2010 :)

[sportscardsnautos]

is how the guy, or his CSRs, thinks that it is acceptable to charge $35 in shipping for an $8 or less flat rate envelope.

[murphy8276]

is how the guy, or his CSRs, thinks that it is acceptable to charge $35 in shipping for an $8 or less flat rate envelope.

What about insurance? He is covering the safety of the card arriving.

[conor912]

Oy vey.

[Leon]

For anyone that doesn't know, Cortney (who started this thread) passed away several weeks ago at the very young age of 41. For that reason this thread is being locked.