Update on PWCC Bid Monitoring Program

[Brent Huigens]

Dear members,

As some of you know, PWCC implemented a pilot program in partnership with eBay to limit the frequency of eBay users cancelling bids on our listings. This pilot program consists of several components including actions taken by eBay as well as actions taken by PWCC. The purpose of this post is to provide an update on this program.

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold.

Overall, we are pleased to report that this program seems to be successfully reducing bid cancellations on our listings. You’ll see in the attached graph that while there is variety in the total amount of cancellations (generally mirroring the total number of items we have for sale each day), there has been a significant downward trend. While we used to see an average of about 14 cancellations per day, we are now seeing an average of five. We continue to work closely with eBay to highlight the problems associated with bid cancellations and ways to address them.

Thank you for your continued support of this important program.

[calvindog]

Lol

[JollyElm]

It should be a straight horizontal line at zero. Anything else is just ridiculous. Come on!!!!

[Gobucsmagic74]

Is this per listing?

[gnaz01]

is this per listing?

😂😂

[JeremyW]

According to your graph, people who purchased items in the middle of September 2016 were extremely vulnerable. Am I mistaken?

[slidekellyslide]

Ummmm....Ebay allows bidders to make as many bid cancellations as they want to. Why are they in some "Pilot program" with you to try and reduce the number of bid cancellations when all they have to do is put an end to bid cancellations?

[JollyElm]

What the graph should look like…

270154

[CMIZ5290]

Ummmm....Ebay allows bidders to make as many bid cancellations as they want to. Why are they in some "Pilot program" with you to try and reduce the number of bid cancellations when all they have to do is put an end to bid cancellations?

Great point Dan...

[Fred]

Is this per listing?

I'm not sure if you are being facetious, but I started laughing when I saw that post..... :p

I'd lower the number to 2 because I can imagine there are times when people bone head something, but 10x isn't a bone head mistake...

[CrackaJackKid]

So what he's saying is that there's only 10 fony bogus accounts shilling and bid retracting now than the previous 25 per item.

[pokerplyr80]

At least it's another step in the right direction. How many of those making fun of Brent's post ban buyers with more than 10 bid retractions from bidding on or buying your cards for sale on ebay?

[ngnichols]

What the graph should look like…

270154

THIS.

Also, there shouldn't be ANYONE with ZERO feedback/transactions bidding on items that are thousands of dollars in value bumping them up even further with bogus bids.

There should be a ZERO retraction policy and also a vetting process/standard to verify that the person is legit and can/will actually pay for the item and what they bid for it.

[nsaddict]

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

[vintagerookies51]

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent

[Topnotchsy]

Brent,

Kudos for this. Looks like a step in a positive direction.

I've got about 25 auctions listed with you that end in the next 2 hours of which I can confirm no shill bidding is being done. (Holding my breath on the Gehrig and Clemente cut autos and Ruth Game Used Patch card since I may take a bath on them...)

[slidekellyslide]

I don't understand why ebay needs to be a party to this? Ebay if they wanted could end bid retractions today, but they don't, and they won't. And this will have zero effect because anyone can and will retract bids if they want to because ebay allows it to happen. Anyone know what it actually takes for a buyer to get the boot from ebay?

Some lady got mad at me for turning her over for non-payment so one night she decided to hit the BIN on 30 or 40 of my highest priced items on ebay. I periodically checked her ebay ID to see if ebay would ban her, they never did. Another bidder asked me to end an auction early for a ridiculously low price, I answered him that I know what they typically sell for and would rather let the auction run to the end. Well he then used two accounts (including the same one he asked me to end the item early) to run up the auction to $1000 on a $300 item. I emailed him to ask him what was up, he denied even bidding on it even though I could see he was the underbidder. I called ebay and the lady told me she could see it was the same person. She said she would cancel their bids. I waited and waited but ebay did not cancel the bids so I did it myself and then blocked both accounts. Neither account was suspended.

Ebay doesn't give one crap what the bidder/buyer is doing as long as sellers keep paying their ebay bill at the end of the month. Shill bidding? Yeah, ebay loves it, more $$$ for them. Why do you think they made it harder for bidders to see each other? Bid retractions? Yeah, ebay doesn't care because they know that retracting a bid is part of the shilling game that makes them more $$$.

[Arazi4442]

FWIW, I'm in the camp of those who hope this is a step in the right direction. Even small steps are progress.

[vthobby]

Brent,

Thank you for the monthly checks that ALWAYS arrive on time and for the crazy prices you get on some of my items!

I have NEVER been withheld funds on ANY item I have ever sent. I guarantee you that some of my items were not paid for since I've been consigning for 2 years now but I have been paid for EVERY item ALWAYS.

Thanks Brent!

Peace, Mike

[PhillipAbbott79]

Dear members,

As some of you know, PWCC implemented a pilot program in partnership with eBay to limit the frequency of eBay users cancelling bids on our listings. This pilot program consists of several components including actions taken by eBay as well as actions taken by PWCC. The purpose of this post is to provide an update on this program.

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold.

Overall, we are pleased to report that this program seems to be successfully reducing bid cancellations on our listings. You’ll see in the attached graph that while there is variety in the total amount of cancellations (generally mirroring the total number of items we have for sale each day), there has been a significant downward trend. While we used to see an average of about 14 cancellations per day, we are now seeing an average of five. We continue to work closely with eBay to highlight the problems associated with bid cancellations and ways to address them.

As others noted. you don't need to reduce the numbers. You simply need to be provided a line which you can cut people off at. That is on both Ebay and you to get correct if I am not mistaken. This whole post with the graph and all of that shit, is basically asking the people here if they are stupid.
Thank you for your continued support of this important program.

OK. So you are seeing 14 cancelled bids per day and the best you can do is this? This problem is way worse than anyone thought you may have known it could possibly be.

Re-read that.

Do you not get any transparency into this and have the ability to flag any of it to EBay based on your own judgment factor? I can't believe that to not be the case. This sounds like asses and elbows.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Dear members,
....

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months.
.....


What are you doing to limit first time registrations now that you have blocked people from bidding? I have seen an influx of low feedback buyers in your auctions and to me, it looks like every single person you are quote un-quote blocking, is just registering for a new user id.

This compromises your entire graph and makes you look really, REALLY sub-intelligent. You have ZERO reputation management. You allow ebay to handle it all for you. You don't require a minimum feedback score to bid. This whole post is a freaking joke.

Lets seem some non paying bidder stats.

[toledo_mudhen]

Wow - Tuff Crowd Here...........

[Timbegs]

Just to weigh in a little...

I'm probably a good example of why you can't just blanket ban people based on criteria. I'm recently more active in the hobby after an absence, I have a low eBay feedback score (68) and I like to buy vintage cards. I don't do so too often, but I never cancel bids and always pay on time. And even for the smaller auction house websites - I lurk and if I see something, I'll sign up day of and bid on/win a desired lot. Now, it may suck for the guys who are better customers, bid all the time, follow the auction and are more active but this is how I do it - and at the end of the day, we're ALL merely trying to get what we want.

I tend to bid on some items in the last minute - definitely on a PWCC item or two over the years, I can't specifically recall what - because I KNOW that I am competing with snipers, autobidders and other people like me so, often, in the last 10-15 seconds of an auction, I put MY best bid in and hope for the best - sometimes double the current bid. I'm not shilling; I'm trying to win a timed auction. It looks and feels like 'someone screwed me' but in reality its just a different bidding style that has to do with the fact that I don't want my presence as a bidder known to the auctioneer, the other bidders or eBay, for a myriad of reasons.

[Rookiemonster]

I think it is a attempt at getting ducks in order. BUT can we now see the shady dealings chart ? I don't think eBay has a pilot program for shady dealings. ( ahh if you have 10 or more shady dealings I will not be doing business with you) I guess I got my own pilot program and it's working fine .

[calvindog]

I think it is a attempt at getting ducks in order. BUT can we now see the shady dealings chart ? I don't eBay has a pilot program for shady dealings. ( ahh if you have 10 or more shady dealings I will not be doing business with you) I guess I got my own pilot program and it's working fine .

Shady dealings include sending consignors their payments in cash instead of a check.

[jhs5120]

Seriously, good work!

[Rookiemonster]

Shady dealings include sending consignors their payments in cash instead of a check.

Other shady dealings are but not limited to.

Buying,cleaning and reselling cards.

Telling cohorts when to bid on auctions.

Driving up values and then selling the card with inflated value.

Shill bidding.

Extremely low feed back bidders.

[bnorth]

Other shady dealings are but not limited to.

Buying,cleaning and reselling cards.

Telling cohorts when to bid on auctions.

Driving up values and then selling the card with inflated value.

Shill bidding.

Extremely low feed back bidders.

Cool, are we listing things that are normal in PWCC auctions?:D

[bobbyw8469]

There should be a ZERO retraction policy and also a vetting process/standard to verify that the person is legit and can/will actually pay for the item and what they bid for it.

^^^ This!! If someone retracts a bid with me and they DO NOT place the correct bid, then they are done. Period.

[Republicaninmass]

Full disclosure should be made for any cards owned by said consignor, PWCC.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Just to weigh in a little...

I'm probably a good example of why you can't just blanket ban people based on criteria. I'm recently more active in the hobby after an absence, I have a low eBay feedback score (68) and I like to buy vintage cards.

You have not given any good example or reason that excludes existing problems from easy remediation.

[Snapolit1]

I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

[PhillipAbbott79]

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

[Snapolit1]

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivating 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Leon]

+2.7 In my experiences almost every time I think of something,
it has been thought of before, usually much before.

Back to the subject. Of course PWCC is an advertiser so that is my biased in it. My view is PWCC is headed in the right direction but as with most others I wish it were a bit quicker. From recent, first hand experience I know change takes time on the bay...

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivated 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Bored5000]

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

[PhillipAbbott79]

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

[Bored5000]

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

I get it that you are trying to find a solution to the problem, but many of the worst chronic offenders of massive retractions have feedback in the thousands and still shill/retract with impunity. As far as requiring 10 feedbacks creating evidence of fraud, again, there are many, many accounts on eBay with feedback in the hundreds or thousands that are on the site despite many retractions.

If eBay doesn't care about accounts with feedback in the thousands that rampantly shill auctions, they are going to be vigilant about someone with 10 feedbacks?

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.

[Republicaninmass]

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.


I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

[Exhibitman]

Meaningless window dressing, the asinine equivalent of saying that you are cracking down on drunk driving because you only allow a driver ten DUIs before suspending his license. Here's an idea: bar any bidder with more than two retractions and do it now. All this waiting is nonsense. No amount of double-talk and graphics conceals the fact that your auctions are riddled with fraud, that you know it, and that you would rather aid the crooks in stealing from your customers than resolve the problem.

[bobbyw8469]

I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

Agreed...I can sell the EXACT same card and grade and get nowhere near the watch count, bids, nor final sales price. And I am OK with that.

[clydepepper]

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

+1

[clydepepper]

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent


+1

[JustinD]

I think until eBay returns to days past this is going to be the status quo.

Why was it so easy to avoid this 7 - 10 years ago? I could adjust listing settings to avoid negative feedback, low feedback and npbs.

eBay should bring back negative feedback for buyers. If they are worried about the return of bidder blackmail, then provide it only in the case of an non- payer.

Auction settings need to return to the ability to block low feedback, negative feedback ratings and non-payers. This should not be my responsibility as a seller to locate non-payers, it should be eBay's responsibility to alert me. Also any bidder should lose the ability to withdraw bids at anytime without approval of the seller. I don't care that accidents happen, you should get dinged and if it happens twice in 6 months your incompetence should get you banned for a minimal year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meaningless window dressing, the asinine equivalent of saying that you are cracking down on drunk driving because you only allow a driver ten DUIs before suspending his license. Here's an idea: bar any bidder with more than two retractions and do it now. All this waiting is nonsense. No amount of double-talk and graphics conceals the fact that your auctions are riddled with fraud, that you know it, and that you would rather aid the crooks in stealing from your customers than resolve the problem.

In 18 or so years on ebay I have never retracted a bid to the best of my memory. I am sure most guys here could say the same. The 25 in 6 month limit was meaningless. I guess 10 is better but I still can't imagine 10 legitimate retractions in that timeframe, unless it was some real one-off situation where a seller misrepresented cards and the bidder found out and backed out of a group of listings.

Will a motivated individual work around getting blocked? Some will. But that doesn't excuse the lack of a more sincere effort.

[Snapolit1]

In 18 or so years on ebay I have never retracted a bid to the best of my memory. I am sure most guys here could say the same. The 25 in 6 month limit was meaningless. I guess 10 is better but I still can't imagine 10 legitimate retractions in that timeframe, unless it was some real one-off situation where a seller misrepresented cards and the bidder found out and backed out of a group of listings.

Will a motivated individual work around getting blocked? Some will. But that doesn't excuse the lack of a more sincere effort.

Just not entirely clear to me how much power PWCC really has to put the hammer down and enforce regulations on auctions being run by another company.

[Topnotchsy]

I've sold with pwcc before and can say 2 things:
1) he definitely has more people watching his auctions listings than most. This is logical given that he has many times the followers that most sellers have. (By followers I mean people who get alerts when he lists items)
2) some of his items sell for considerably more than items from other sellers without any shilling. Of course some sell on the low side as well. I had around 30 items that sold over the last couple of days. I took big hits on a few that sold for a lot less than expected (one went for 40%-50% of my expectation) and most sold for around going rate but there were a few that sold for a lot more (for example a card I expected $250 for going for almost $500).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just not entirely clear to me how much power PWCC really has to put the hammer down and enforce regulations on auctions being run by another company.

A seller can block any bidder he chooses to block. Next question?

[Bigshot69]

Ebay should build a buyer scoring model similar to whats used for credit scores. This way sellers could use this information when accepting best offers or setting minimum bidder score criteria when selling through auctions. This model could be based on the following criteria:

-Proportion of bid retractions compared to winning bids (10 to me isn't a big deal if someone has won 500 items in the last 6 months)
-Cost of average purchase
-Average time between purchase and payment
-Number of NPB cases opened against
-Number of purchases

I know this sounds a bit out there but does anyone else feel this would add value?

[Snapolit1]

A seller can block any bidder he chooses to block. Next question?

If someone wants to commit systematic fraud believing they are making $$ that is a teeny tiny speed bump. Let me reach for ebay identity #4 or ask my brother in law for a favor.

I have had people ask me to "help" move their auctions along. I am sure many people on this board have gotten similar requests.

[Batpig]

Full disclosure, I'm both a consignor and buyer with PWCC...

I understand that Brent lost credibility with some after the WWG DiMaggio fiasco, but at least he's doing something. It might not be at the speed that some want, but he's the only seller on eBay putting in these limitations, and he said up front it would be a slow process. Because of that, he needs to be careful because if consignors think that at any point these policies are limiting his ability to get top dollar for his lots, they'll simply move to someone without the same restrictions.

[bobbyw8469]

If someone wants to commit systematic fraud believing they are making $$ that is a teeny tiny speed bump. Let me reach for ebay identity #4 or ask my brother in law for a favor.

I have had people ask me to "help" move their auctions along. I am sure many people on this board have gotten similar requests.

I have told people when I am giving a card away...it wasn't to cheat the system. If I am giving a card away, I rather it go to someone off of here than some Joe Blow out of Kansas. I like seeing my friends make money, if I can't.....

[CrackaJackKid]

Hey now,let's leave Kansas out of this! 😉

[bobbyw8469]

Lol

[stlcardsfan]

I see the problem as Ebay, not PWCC. They are a publicly traded, for profit corporation. That tells you most of what you need to know as to why this stuff goes on.

[Rookiemonster]

I don't understand the eBay excuse. If your capable of controlling the retracted bids then eBay has done enough. If you decided to take advantage of the loopholes then that's the individual not eBay.

[JustinD]

-Proportion of bid retractions compared to winning bids (10 to me isn't a big deal if someone has won 500 items in the last 6 months)

I have zero in 5000 purchases. If two percent (which is your 10 number) is allowable is it ok if I had 100?

The allowable number should be one...ever. If people make more than one mistake I feel a one year banishment is fine. no one with 10 retractions in 6 months isn't doing it deliberately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Full disclosure, I'm both a consignor and buyer with PWCC...

I understand that Brent lost credibility with some after the WWG DiMaggio fiasco, but at least he's doing something. It might not be at the speed that some want, but he's the only seller on eBay putting in these limitations, and he said up front it would be a slow process. Because of that, he needs to be careful because if consignors think that at any point these policies are limiting his ability to get top dollar for his lots, they'll simply move to someone without the same restrictions.

So if it makes you more money it's justified? I don't follow that one, at all. I mean of course I do, but not as a matter of integrity or ethics.

[jfkheat]

PWCC could announce that they are giving away all cards that they have listed and some people here would still bitch about the way PWCC went about doing so.
James

[Bigshot69]

I have zero in 5000 purchases. If two percent (which is your 10 number) is allowable is it ok if I had 100?

The allowable number should be one...ever. If people make more than one mistake I feel a one year banishment is fine. no one with 10 retractions in 6 months isn't doing it deliberately.

Id feel a heckuva lot better about someone with 100 retractions and 5000 purchases than someone with 10 retractions and 15 purchases.

[Snapolit1]

The real bizarreness of PWCC is that they are an auction house that doesn't run auctions. They post to eBay and say "worthy of attention" a few hundred times.

[mechanicalman]

The real bizarreness of PWCC is that they are an auction house that doesn't run auctions. They post to eBay and say "worthy of attention" a few hundred times.

Doesn't run auctions? They run auctions on eBay, a platform for online auctions. How is this even remotely bizarre?

Agree, though, that they've never had a card that wasn't "worthy of attention" or "perhaps the best they've brokered in recent memory."

[Snapolit1]

This whole thread proves that these are eBays auctions under eBays rules. Al from LOTG has his rules. As does Goldin and the others. These are run under EBays rules.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC could announce that they are giving away all cards that they have listed and some people here would still bitch about the way PWCC went about doing so.
James

And conversely they could commit blatant fraud and some people here would be making excuses for them and praising them.

[Republicaninmass]

And conversely they could commit blatant fraud and some people here would be making excuses for them and praising them.


..as well as continuing to buy and consign to them

[Bored5000]

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ4-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/352030653078?hash=item51f6a97a96:g:U74AAOSw~CFY8Sk 4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-Sticker-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-AUTO-8-UDA-AUTH-COA-PWCC-/401307994869?hash=item5d6fd20af5:g:jnMAAOSwj25Y8CO L

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/142348193486?hash=item21249d0ece:g:hn4AAOSww3tY7~6 i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029906653&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-Showcase-Takeit2-Net-Michael-Jordan-1000-13-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308458060?hash=item5d6fd91c4c:g:sJwAAOSwGy5Y8Si C

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401307995969&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/142349187279?hash=item2124ac38cf:g:0kEAAOSwj25Y8Sl P

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Legendary-Dual-Michael-Jordan-Tiger-Woods-PATCH-AUTO-25-PSA-10-PWCC-/352030654056?hash=item51f6a97e68:g:G4QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348189495&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Gatorade-Slam-Dunk-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-7-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029906996?hash=item51f69e1834:g:ZWQAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348205810&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-8-5-NM-MT-PWCC-/401308453264?hash=item5d6fd90990:g:szkAAOSw3utY8SV B

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-Chrome-Refractor-Michael-Jordan-139-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308455687?hash=item5d6fd91307:g:cM8AAOSwCWFY8Sc 2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-117-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307987090?hash=item5d6fd1ec92:i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/352029922584?hash=item51f69e5518:g:4GcAAOSwc49Y8CI e

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308453372?hash=item5d6fd909fc:g:lR8AAOSwTM5Y8SV Z

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisite-Collection-Enshrinements-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-23-EN-MJ-PWCC-/401308464428?hash=item5d6fd9352c:g:kcUAAOSw~CFY8Sv G

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-2-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029921080?hash=item51f69e4f38:g:yDcAAOSwnF9Y7~6 N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-1985-ROY-6-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307995477?hash=item5d6fd20d55:g:ldAAAOSw03lY7~9 H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ1-BGS-9-5-GEM-MT-PWCC-/352030652983?hash=item51f6a97a37:g:KzoAAOSwmgJY8Sl Q

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ2-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308459405?hash=item5d6fd9218d:i:401308459405

[Stonepony]

270424

There's a problem

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Eddie, I copied your post to and sent it to Brent. While relying on the public for reporting seems like a bit of a cop out, if someone goes through all the work you did we might as well pass it along. If you want, keep us posted if those auctions see a bunch of bidders kicked out.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Eddie: Thanks for bringing up the issue with Jordan sales, that is surely 'worthy of our attention'.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months."

Uh...ok. Eddie, you must be mistaken.:eek:

[swarmee]

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months."

Uh...ok. Eddie, you must be mistaken.:eek:

Depends on how literally you take news coming out that day... ;-)
But they have told us since they can't see the bidder info when they're logged in, they require us to do the research for them. They probably should have written "PWCC places blocks on any known user ID". Or they could just keep a different browser open and look it up themselves? Or work with eBay to make bid retractions visible to sellers? Or have eBay create an automatic block against those bidders? Or just stop holding auctions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Depends on how literally you take news coming out that day... ;-)
But they have told us since they can't see the bidder info when they're logged in, they require us to do the research for them. They probably should have written "PWCC places blocks on any known user ID". Or they could just keep a different browser open and look it up themselves? Or work with eBay to make bid retractions visible to sellers? Or have eBay create an automatic block against those bidders? Or just stop holding auctions?

What happened to the new hire whose job was to monitor auctions or whatever?

Ah here it is.
"First, we hired a full-time customer service and bid monitoring representative. Her job is to promptly answer email, phone calls, and review bid activity on our auctions. She takes action on all notifications of bid retractions that we receive from eBay real time as well as spot checks our listings for bidders with a high number of bid retractions, zero-feedback bidders, and low-feedback bidders. I am also assisting in this process. She started working with PWCC in the second week of January and is now fully engaged in her role in monitoring auctions."

[irv]

What happened to the new hire whose job was to monitor auctions or whatever?

Ah here it is.
"First, we hired a full-time customer service and bid monitoring representative. Her job is to promptly answer email, phone calls, and review bid activity on our auctions. She takes action on all notifications of bid retractions that we receive from eBay real time as well as spot checks our listings for bidders with a high number of bid retractions, zero-feedback bidders, and low-feedback bidders. I am also assisting in this process. She started working with PWCC in the second week of January and is now fully engaged in her role in monitoring auctions."

I was quite surprised that the info they printed late last year about about bid retractions, shill bidding and the other one I can't currently think of, was also written the year before, and from what I remember, a year or 2 before that as well. :eek:

I was fairly new here and thought that was great of them to do but to my chagrin, I seen their promises were nothing new nor had anything changed.:confused:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Depends on how literally you take news coming out that day... ;-)
But they have told us since they can't see the bidder info when they're logged in, they require us to do the research for them. They probably should have written "PWCC places blocks on any known user ID". Or they could just keep a different browser open and look it up themselves? Or work with eBay to make bid retractions visible to sellers? Or have eBay create an automatic block against those bidders? Or just stop holding auctions?

To quote Robin Williams in Aladdin:
""There are a few exceptions, a few provisos, and a couple of quid pro quos."

[Bored5000]

Eddie, I copied your post to and sent it to Brent. While relying on the public for reporting seems like a bit of a cop out, if someone goes through all the work you did we might as well pass it along. If you want, keep us posted if those auctions see a bunch of bidders kicked out.

Thanks. :) I had some free time last night. LOL.

I actually would like to pick up a couple of Jordan Star cards at some point (the Star No. 101 is out of my budget), but Jordan in particular seems to be a favorite subject of rampant bid retractors. I didn't even go through nearly all of the 473 Michael Jordan auctions PWCC is running right now, but the amount of shady bidders even shocked me when I started looking at auction after auction. That was why I kept looking at one auction after another.

[Bored5000]

Eddie: Thanks for bringing up the issue with Jordan sales, that is surely 'worthy of our attention'.

No Problem. :) Like I wrote, I had some free time. But I was shocked by the degree that Jordan auctions were infested with serial retractors. I didn't look at any other player, but many of Jordan's cards have made a gigantic move upward in the past 12-18 months. There is wide speculation that many of his popular cards have been shilled to extreme measures recently.

[bigfish]

What happened to the new hire whose job was to monitor auctions or whatever?

Ah here it is.
"First, we hired a full-time customer service and bid monitoring representative. Her job is to promptly answer email, phone calls, and review bid activity on our auctions. She takes action on all notifications of bid retractions that we receive from eBay real time as well as spot checks our listings for bidders with a high number of bid retractions, zero-feedback bidders, and low-feedback bidders. I am also assisting in this process. She started working with PWCC in the second week of January and is now fully engaged in her role in monitoring auctions."


Great question...

[Republicaninmass]

Great question...



Must have run off with Probstein's Wes Spece

[bigfish]

Why don't they start a bidder mentoring program?

[HRBAKER]

Maybe we just have several bidders who can't quite decide which Jordan card they really want. :D:cool:

[D.P.Johnson]

Great question...

I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...

[slidekellyslide]

~ crickets~

[Leon]

Nice list here. Certainly a ton of fraud going on,
still....

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ4-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/352030653078?hash=item51f6a97a96:g:U74AAOSw~CFY8Sk 4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-Sticker-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-AUTO-8-UDA-AUTH-COA-PWCC-/401307994869?hash=item5d6fd20af5:g:jnMAAOSwj25Y8CO L

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/142348193486?hash=item21249d0ece:g:hn4AAOSww3tY7~6 i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029906653&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-Showcase-Takeit2-Net-Michael-Jordan-1000-13-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308458060?hash=item5d6fd91c4c:g:sJwAAOSwGy5Y8Si C

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401307995969&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/142349187279?hash=item2124ac38cf:g:0kEAAOSwj25Y8Sl P

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Legendary-Dual-Michael-Jordan-Tiger-Woods-PATCH-AUTO-25-PSA-10-PWCC-/352030654056?hash=item51f6a97e68:g:G4QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348189495&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Gatorade-Slam-Dunk-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-7-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029906996?hash=item51f69e1834:g:ZWQAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348205810&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-8-5-NM-MT-PWCC-/401308453264?hash=item5d6fd90990:g:szkAAOSw3utY8SV B

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-Chrome-Refractor-Michael-Jordan-139-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308455687?hash=item5d6fd91307:g:cM8AAOSwCWFY8Sc 2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-117-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307987090?hash=item5d6fd1ec92:i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/352029922584?hash=item51f69e5518:g:4GcAAOSwc49Y8CI e

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308453372?hash=item5d6fd909fc:g:lR8AAOSwTM5Y8SV Z

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisite-Collection-Enshrinements-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-23-EN-MJ-PWCC-/401308464428?hash=item5d6fd9352c:g:kcUAAOSw~CFY8Sv G

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-2-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029921080?hash=item51f69e4f38:g:yDcAAOSwnF9Y7~6 N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-1985-ROY-6-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307995477?hash=item5d6fd20d55:g:ldAAAOSw03lY7~9 H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ1-BGS-9-5-GEM-MT-PWCC-/352030652983?hash=item51f6a97a37:g:KzoAAOSwmgJY8Sl Q

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ2-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308459405?hash=item5d6fd9218d:i:401308459405

[bnorth]

~ crickets~

Did you expect anything else? There is no way they will come on here or any of the other places they posted the same exact thing. Any response from PWCC is a lose lose situation for them. It is like the Masto debacle, the guys that spoke out got nailed and the ones that shut up are now considered respectable.

These threads are awesome though. One guy admitted you can easily buy his integrity and others say it is OK because they use their services.

[Peter_Spaeth]

~ crickets~

Facts are pesky things when they conflict with the story line. It seems to me there are two possibilities: they aren't very good at what they claim to be doing, or they are making exceptions to the policy for certain regular bidders. My guess is the latter.

[conor912]

Nice list here. Certainly a ton of fraud going on,
still....

Yet their banner ad sits high and proud at the top of this page.

[Leon]

They are an advertiser. If you don't like it, leave.
I should add that, imo, the consignors who retract a lot of bids are committing the fraud. I hope PWCC will continue to put pressure on the retractors and reduce the number significantly in the near future. Ebay could do more too.....

Yet their banner ad sits high and proud at the top of this page.

[Snapolit1]

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

Two potential problems with your first thought, one, what a card is worth to you could well have been influenced by price inflation due to fraud, and two, even though you win a card for what it is worth to you, if the card was shill bid you might still pay more than you would have absent fraud.

Completely agree with your second thought.

[BeanTown]

PWCC business model is using the eBay platform and keeping the once successful auctions alive in the eBay community like it was over a decade ago. I Think we all agree we don't like seeing the same old cards with museum prices on them or a retail price without the auction excitement. Many complaints should go to eBay on their policies. Just set your snipe bid for a card you like and forget about it. You will either win it for what you were willing to pay for it, or you will lose it.

PWCC might want to block problem bidders who don't pay for items or people that constantly speak out saying they won't do business with them. I'm sure some of these people still bid in their auctions privately.

I'm thankful they are keeping the auction process alive and they are getting a tremendous amount of material consigned to them for us collectors to have the chance to bid in and possible own if we bid high enough.

[Peter_Spaeth]

JC I don't get your point. Are we supposed to be so grateful to PWCC for running auctions as opposed to BINs that we should overlook their flaws when people point them out, like selling a cleaned 4 as a 7 with no disclosure even though Brent was personally involved in the card's history, or announcing a crackdown on retracting bidders which as Eddie figured out in a few minutes isn't really taking place as advertised, and so on?

[BeanTown]

JC I don't get your point. Are we supposed to be so grateful to PWCC for running auctions as opposed to BINs that we should overlook their flaws when people point them out, like selling a cleaned 4 as a 7 with no disclosure, or announcing a crackdown on retracting bidders which as Eddie figured out in a few minutes isn't really taking place as advertised, and so on?

Peter, I'm looking at their business model as a whole. I love the true auction where everything starts out at 99 cents. There have been tremendous realized prices both low and high. I like that they allow Paypal payments and they ship very quickly. Plus I like they have fresh new material auctioning off every month without reserves (Yes, you can make the argument that a few lots have hidden reserves done by the consignor or by their friends).

I'm not dismissing one bit it was wrong what happened on the DiMaggio World Wide card which Brent IMO got greedy on and should have had full disclosure on it. I think and hope he should learn from other successful auction companies before it becomes too late with their habitual bad way of doing business like Doug Allen and the king fish of Bill Mastro. Hopefully Brent doesn't follow in their footsteps which includes the people he chooses to surround himself in the hobby circle. Allen and Mastro were tight with John Rogers who we all know how he is/was.

I know many of us want Brent with PWCC to be the pioneer in the hobby on eBay to weed out the already flawed system eBay has. It's true he can do more to prevent fraud and shenanigans. It's a positive step that they are willing to do this unlike many other eBay sellers who can hide behind different alias names.

[Beastmode]

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

++ There is also soaking, shilling, frosting, cracking, reprinting, counterfeiting, card doctoring, bid peddling, etc. It's what makes our hobby unique. Do your research; understand how your money is spent. if you choose to put your head up your ass and blame others for how you got f'd, then no amount of threads on this forum is going to help you.

[RedsFan1941]

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

I list a card on EBAY for 99 cents.

You see it, think it's value is $1,000 and place a snipe for $750.

Heading into the final minute of the auction I see the card has no bids and use a different account to place a bid of $500 within the final seconds.

The auction ends with two bids -- mine and yours. You win the card for $505, more than $200 less than what you were willing to pay!!!!! Had I not shilled it, you would have paid .99.

Using your logic, you didn't get shilled or cheated because you paid less than what you were willing to.

I know this example is unrealistic and very simple. I did it that way so its easy to understand. But the number of bids, the amount of bids and the timing the bids are placed makes no difference. A buyers state of mind or what he's "willing" to pay add nothing to the definition of shilling or being cheated.

[HRBAKER]

JC,
You may have a more expansive view of what constitutes a "true auction" than others.

[nrm1977]

Great news! Now maybe you can focus on; asking clients to bid on items? :eek:

[nrm1977]

I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

I agree 100%.

On a side note, I still don't understand why there are 40+bids on an auction that is 10 days long with 9 days left. To me, this makes no logical sense. Meaning, why are bidding wars occurring with 9 days left on a 10 day auction? This alone is a huge red flag. What is stopping a cosigner to have 10 of his buddies drive the price up on day 1 of a 10 day auction? Which IMO is happening a decent amount in PWCC auctions.

Maybe I'm just not following why someone would even bid on a 10 day auction on day number 1? If I'm interested in a said auction, it first goes in my watch-list, I then look for other similar examples of the card on ebay, I come up with a price I'm willing to pay and place my bid with 10 seconds left. I can understand a bunch of bids coming in on the last day of the auction but, not on day 1 of a 10 day auction. It's very suspect to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nick as i have said for years this seems to happen over and over on many of their big ticket cards.

[D.P.Johnson]

I agree 100%.

On a side note, I still don't understand why there are 40+bids on an auction that is 10 days long with 9 days left. To me, this makes no logical sense. Meaning, why are bidding wars occurring with 9 days left on a 10 day auction? This alone is a huge red flag. What is stopping a cosigner to have 10 of his buddies drive the price up on day 1 of a 10 day auction? Which IMO is happening a decent amount in PWCC auctions.

Maybe I'm just not following why someone would even bid on a 10 day auction on day number 1? If I'm interested in a said auction, it first goes in my watch-list, I then look for other similar examples of the card on ebay, I come up with a price I'm willing to pay and place my bid with 10 seconds left. I can understand a bunch of bids coming in on the last day of the auction but, not on day 1 of a 10 day auction. It's very suspect to me.

I think someone mentioned before they like to bid this way (early and often), to scare other bidders away. I wouldn't do it, but I guess it makes a little bit of sense. But, yeah...it happens quite a bit with this seller...

[bnorth]

I agree 100%.

On a side note, I still don't understand why there are 40+bids on an auction that is 10 days long with 9 days left. To me, this makes no logical sense. Meaning, why are bidding wars occurring with 9 days left on a 10 day auction? This alone is a huge red flag. What is stopping a cosigner to have 10 of his buddies drive the price up on day 1 of a 10 day auction? Which IMO is happening a decent amount in PWCC auctions.

Maybe I'm just not following why someone would even bid on a 10 day auction on day number 1? If I'm interested in a said auction, it first goes in my watch-list, I then look for other similar examples of the card on ebay, I come up with a price I'm willing to pay and place my bid with 10 seconds left. I can understand a bunch of bids coming in on the last day of the auction but, not on day 1 of a 10 day auction. It's very suspect to me.

The reason for all the early bidding is so the item gets more views. If you do not use a specific search function the items with more bids/views show up higher on the list. This early bidding/shilling is done by a few people to get their items more views.

[Brent Huigens]

I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...

I am indeed Brent's wife, Betsy; Brent and I jointly own and manage PWCC Auctions. I am not the person responsible for the day-to-day policing our bidding environment. We hired a full-time Customer Service Representative, Melody, who is responsible for answering phones, responding to our emails, and reviewing bidding and implementing PWCC policy. I assist Melody as needed and communicate our data to eBay for their action.

For those of you who have called our PWCC phone number, you have likely spoken to Melody.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[Brent Huigens]

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ4-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/352030653078?hash=item51f6a97a96:g:U74AAOSw~CFY8Sk 4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-Sticker-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-AUTO-8-UDA-AUTH-COA-PWCC-/401307994869?hash=item5d6fd20af5:g:jnMAAOSwj25Y8CO L

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/142348193486?hash=item21249d0ece:g:hn4AAOSww3tY7~6 i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029906653&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-Showcase-Takeit2-Net-Michael-Jordan-1000-13-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308458060?hash=item5d6fd91c4c:g:sJwAAOSwGy5Y8Si C

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=352029920966&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401307995969&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/142349187279?hash=item2124ac38cf:g:0kEAAOSwj25Y8Sl P

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Legendary-Dual-Michael-Jordan-Tiger-Woods-PATCH-AUTO-25-PSA-10-PWCC-/352030654056?hash=item51f6a97e68:g:G4QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348189495&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Gatorade-Slam-Dunk-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-7-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029906996?hash=item51f69e1834:g:ZWQAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142348205810&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-8-5-NM-MT-PWCC-/401308453264?hash=item5d6fd90990:g:szkAAOSw3utY8SV B

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-Chrome-Refractor-Michael-Jordan-139-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308455687?hash=item5d6fd91307:g:cM8AAOSwCWFY8Sc 2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-117-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307987090?hash=item5d6fd1ec92:i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-Basketball-Michael-Jordan-59-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/352029922584?hash=item51f69e5518:g:4GcAAOSwc49Y8CI e

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-Scoring-Kings-Michael-Jordan-5-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308453372?hash=item5d6fd909fc:g:lR8AAOSwTM5Y8SV Z

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisite-Collection-Enshrinements-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-23-EN-MJ-PWCC-/401308464428?hash=item5d6fd9352c:g:kcUAAOSw~CFY8Sv G

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-2-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/352029921080?hash=item51f69e4f38:g:yDcAAOSwnF9Y7~6 N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ-Michael-Jordan-ROOKIE-RC-1985-ROY-6-BGS-9-5-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401307995477?hash=item5d6fd20d55:g:ldAAAOSw03lY7~9 H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ1-BGS-9-5-GEM-MT-PWCC-/352030652983?hash=item51f6a97a37:g:KzoAAOSwmgJY8Sl Q

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-Master-Collection-Michael-Jordan-AUTO-50-MJ2-BGS-9-MINT-PWCC-/401308459405?hash=item5d6fd9218d:i:401308459405

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[irv]

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing? :confused:

[slidekellyslide]

What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing? :confused:

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

[irv]

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

Fair enough, and understood. :)

[PhillipAbbott79]

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.

[irv]

Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.

Kinda of what I was wondering/thinking?
I mean, have a hired person check bids regularly, ban/give the boot to those with over 10 or 25 retractions, or whatever the new number is, and be done with them.
Once weeded out, it wouldn't be that hard of a job, as far as I know, to keep up with, imo.

[swarmee]

If I was them and wanted to put an end to this, I would sort by "number of bids" after two days into the auction. All 25 of those bump bids to get the item on the "HOT LIST" would be eliminated, and the consignors (err, um, bidders) of those items would be blacklisted from consigning with me. And then I'd check their retraction history. And then I'd go out of business due to lack of consignors and blocked bidders. So I can see why they're slow-rolling this as long as they can.

[bnorth]

Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.

From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.

[slidekellyslide]

Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.

I would think it would be easier and cheaper in the long run for PWCC to have someone design a program to monitor their bidders. People have made apps that let you know who unfriends/unfollows you on facebook, it can't be much harder to program than that.

[irv]

From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.

I wonder why she/they/them are not responding? They have been on line for a while now?
Copied at 8:44 est.

Most users ever online was 8,305, 01-17-2016 at 10:06 PM.
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[CMIZ5290]

I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...

Brent and his wife have worked together for many years. You should not turn this into something otherwise.....

[Brent Huigens]

I would think it would be easier and cheaper in the long run for PWCC to have someone design a program to monitor their bidders. People have made apps that let you know who unfriends/unfollows you on facebook, it can't be much harder to program than that.

Great suggestion - it is actually something we are having our software developer explore through the eBay API. Although it is easier said than done because of the kind of data that eBay makes available through their API, we are optimistic that something automated can be put in place.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[Brent Huigens]

From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.

Based on feedback from this thread, we will continue to increase the time we dedicate to checking bidders, and will continue to focus our efforts more on modern basketball. Thanks!

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

[ls7plus]

I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Steve. As a lawyer involved in litigation, I constantly see the worst in people--it often seems that whenever money is at stake, morals and ethical behavior get thrown by the wayside, and the more bucks that are at stake, the more the behavior tends towards "anything goes!" I used to get mad as an appellate lawyer when my insurance company retained opponent would write a brief twisting the facts and law and making as many misrepresentations as possible within the allotted page limit. But then I would cool down and simply dismantle these concoctions in my reply brief, and it almost always went badly for opposing counsel who engaged in such tactics at oral argument before a 3-judge panel. But back to the main point: wherever and whenever there is money to be made through unethical behavior, honor and integrity serve as no barrier at all to a substantial portion of the population. It appears to me that Brent is at least trying to do something to head some of this BS off, and as determined as the scammers are, it's like Ringo Starr said way back in 1971: "It don't come easy."

Best regards,

Larry

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

[bnorth]

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

Just for comparison if you look through your own listings do your bidders have that type of bid retraction rate? I would guess they don't but am curious.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I run very few auctions anymore, so not a great basis for comparison. That being said, I was more pointing out the progress within his auctions. 6 months ago the numbers would've looked nothing like what I discovered. Again I think there were 4 bidders out of about 48 that I checked that had ANY retractions and only one of those had more than 3. These were the top bidders on the most expensive items he has going.

[Kenny Cole]

Brent,

Thank you for the monthly checks that ALWAYS arrive on time and for the crazy prices you get on some of my items!

I have NEVER been withheld funds on ANY item I have ever sent. I guarantee you that some of my items were not paid for since I've been consigning for 2 years now but I have been paid for EVERY item ALWAYS.

Thanks Brent!

Peace, Mike

This nicely summarizes the issue presented here, and on the other PWCC thread. Crazy prices are paid and that's all that matters. How? No worries. Doesn't matter how. Doesn't matter if its fraud. For those sales that are, shall we say, less than on the up and up, you can say exactly the same thing that an honest seller would say and unless you do a Sherlock Holmes job, no one is the wiser. And some shill of the seller can come on here and solemnly proclaim how on the up and up it was and then be all indignant when people call bullshit. Right. I get it.

I seldom buy anything on eBay anymore, and these two threads make me question whether I should even bother trying to buy anything ever again. What a shit show. I hope that all the principals involved in this sad debacle experience the karma that they very richly deserve.

[HRBAKER]

This nicely summarizes the issue presented here, and on the other PWCC thread. Crazy prices are paid and that's all that matters. How? No worries. Doesn't matter how. Doesn't matter if its fraud. For those sales that are, shall we say, less than on the up and up, you can say exactly the same thing that an honest seller would say and unless you do a Sherlock Holmes job, no one is the wiser. And some shill of the seller can come on here and solemnly proclaim how on the up and up it was and then be all indignant when people call bullshit. Right. I get it.

I seldom buy anything on eBay anymore, and these two threads make me question whether I should even bother trying to buy anything ever again. What a shit show. I hope that all the principals involved in this sad debacle experience the karma that they very richly deserve.

Well said and right on point.

[Bored5000]

Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

Thank you.

[Bored5000]

FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.

When I was looking at the Jordan listings, I put his name in into the search of PWCC auctions, then sorted by most bids. I expected to find a couple auctions here and there that looked a bit shady, but was a bit surprised when I really looked at how rampant the retractions/shilling was.