Where are you Jason May...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Jason,

Since you don't reply to my emails, I thought that I may actually get a response from you on here.

I had purchased some cards from you that you were very adamant on passing authentication and none of which did. I would obviously like a refund, but I would like to hear more on your end. And I know I am not the only guy going through this right now as you've sold another bad autograph to a board member that they are probably out thousands as well.



Cheers,

Brent

[1952boyntoncollector]

hopefully a misunderstanding..what is his username

[HOF Auto Rookies]

hopefully a misunderstanding..what is his username


Jasonxmay.

[7nohitter]

Brent,

Sorry to hear you're having a tough time. Hopefully there's a good excuse. Any chance you could post pictures?

Andrew

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Brent,



Sorry to hear you're having a tough time. Hopefully there's a good excuse. Any chance you could post pictures?



Andrew



Andrew,

Thank you and here you go!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/9d42cd33951fc46ddbd7fd82a5c1c72d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/43bca25fb3aab690c4a6c55c1b38c882.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/62b2196edf6cd059109c7332a4eb61d8.jpg

[7nohitter]

Thanks Brent. I always admire the cards you post, hope this is resolved quickly for you. Appreciate you posting the pics.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Thanks Brent. I always admire the cards you post, hope this is resolved quickly for you. Appreciate you posting the pics.


Thanks for the kind words.

[Jasonxmay]

I hate this type of thread, but since I've been called out I feel the need to defend myself. This will be my only response, but if anyone has any remaining concerns I will respond to any private messages I receive.

I sold the Simmons to Brent over a year ago after I purchased it from another respected member of this site. I also purchased Ruth and Rixey signed 33 Goudeys from the same member at the same time and both are now in PSA holders. I believed, and still believe, the Simmons to be authentic. However, Brent never requested and I never offered any type of guarantee.

The Fabers were part of a trade Brent and I made in 2014. I received a Rube Marquard signed t206 and $1000 cash and Brent received the Fabers as well as signed 33 Goudeys of Maranville, Hartnett and Lyons. We discussed the possibility that the Fabers might be wife signed and again, no guarantee was requested or given. Brent also referred to the Fabers as a "toss in" when he requested that they be added to the deal.

I hear nothing about any of these cards until last Friday when I get an email from Brent informing me that the 3 had failed authentication and demanding a refund. If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness.

I have sold many signed cards without incident. I have given a few refunds when cards failed authentication. I've also bought my share of cards that failed to pass authentication and I've never requested a refund unless a guarantee was made. I believe I know the other member Brent is referencing me having sold a fake autograph to, and I am certain that member will acknowledge that I sold that particular card at a steep discount based on my disclosure that it had already failed PSA. That member has never requested a refund.

The bottom line is that I feel it's unreasonable for Brent to wait one year and over two years, respectively, to demand a refund when no guarantees were ever made or requested. As I said, this will be my only reply, but if anyone who has traded with, or bought from, me in the past has any concerns, please send me a private message and I'll gladly respond.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I hate this type of thread, but since I've been called out I feel the need to defend myself. This will be my only response, but if anyone has any remaining concerns I will respond to any private messages I receive.



I sold the Simmons to Brent over a year ago after I purchased it from another respected member of this site. I also purchased Ruth and Rixey signed 33 Goudeys from the same member at the same time and both are now in PSA holders. I believed, and still believe, the Simmons to be authentic. However, Brent never requested and I never offered any type of guarantee.



The Fabers were part of a trade Brent and I made in 2014. I received a Rube Marquard signed t206 and $1000 cash and Brent received the Fabers as well as signed 33 Goudeys of Maranville, Hartnett and Lyons. We discussed the possibility that the Fabers might be wife signed and again, no guarantee was requested or given. Brent also referred to the Fabers as a "toss in" when he requested that they be added to the deal.



I hear nothing about any of these cards until last Friday when I get an email from Brent informing me that the 3 had failed authentication and demanding a refund. If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness.



I have sold many signed cards without incident. I have given a few refunds when cards failed authentication. I've also bought my share of cards that failed to pass authentication and I've never requested a refund unless a guarantee was made. I believe I know the other member Brent is referencing me having sold a fake autograph to, and I am certain that member will acknowledge that I sold that particular card at a steep discount based on my disclosure that it had already failed PSA. That member has never requested a refund.



The bottom line is that I feel it's unreasonable for Brent to wait one year and over two years, respectively, to demand a refund when no guarantees were ever made or requested. As I said, this will be my only reply, but if anyone who has traded with, or bought from, me in the past has any concerns, please send me a private message and I'll gladly respond.


Demanded? Really? How is this demanding?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/1c54231f2b8e667201745022449237ce.jpg

What was it about being wife signed?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/eaf056e0fe8a63abe5dca0151e7e95a7.jpg

I'll reply more later...Goodnight

[HOF Auto Rookies]

So, I take it that's a no on the refund...even when you said it's not wife signed when it is? And it looks like you said I could return it if I'm not comfortable with it. Well, I'm not comfortable with it and would like to return it.

[Bruinsfan94]

So, I take it that's a no on the refund...even when you said it's not wife signed when it is? And it looks like you said I could return it if I'm not comfortable with it. Well, I'm not comfortable with it and would like to return it.

No offense, but it was kinda clownish to ask for the refund the way you did, not demanding, but clownish. Still think you should get a full refund, since thats what he promised.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

No offense, but it was kinda clownish to ask for the refund the way you did, not demanding, but clownish. Still think you should get a full refund, since thats what he promised.


Thanks for your input. I certainly could have written my email better, but it certainly was in no way demanding or discourteous. Clown question? Possibly.

[Bruinsfan94]

Thanks for your input. I certainly I could have written my email better, but it certainly was in no way demanding or discourteous. Clown question? Possibly.

Yea his version is a little over zealous if there is no more. lol I'd say just a little bizarre to ask how he was going to refund you after three years. I don't know him but if he's an honest seller I think he will do the right thing, and ignore the fact that you slightly mispoke. I mean if the only reason your not going to refund is because you feel you were slighted, thats no way to handle a transaction. Just my opinion.

[1952boyntoncollector]

The interesting people us collectors are...wierd on both ways..the buyer wanting the refund sort of wierdly and a long time later and the seller saying

"... If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness."

Always interesting when someone WAS going to do something but for the tone of the email. Either you refund or you dont dont. Usually those are fake excuses when they point to tone or politeness. I never heard anyone say 'i was going to not pay you back except you asked you asked sooo nicely so here is the money'

If the seller was ok already in offering a refund, he shouldnt be complaining about tone, just offer the refund since thats the moral code he was following

Seems like the wrong buyer for the wrong seller..just wasnt a good match


But thats a good thing about net54...if you are ignored in emails you can always open up a thread here

[PhillipAbbott79]

I believe there is a reasoable time frame for inspection. Money gets allocatedto different things. Refund is not always possible even. There is no infinite time period for returns from honest sellers. That is ridiculous.

If you have concerns dont buy. If you buy get the item inspected and if its bad return it within a normal time frame.

Even credit cards will not let you dispute something after 6 months. I believe that to be a good guage on where to draw the line...but even that is really long to float a seller. In private transactions it should be 2 to 3 months. That is more than enough to get something graded or get other opinions.

No offense but that is what you get for sitting on things. Chaulk it up and stop doing business with him.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I believe there is a reasoable time frame for inspection. Money gets allocatedto different things. Refund is not always possible even. There is no infinite time period for returns from honest sellers. That is ridiculous.



If you have concerns dont buy. If you buy get the item inspected and if its bad return it within a normal time frame.



Even credit cards will not let you dispute something after 6 months. I believe that to be a good guage on where to draw the line...but even that is really long to float a seller. In private transactions it should be 2 to 3 months. That is more than enough to get something graded or get other opinions.



No offense but that is what you get for sitting on things. Chaulk it up and stop doing business with him.


Really? That is what I get? So, because I trust a seller whom I thought was a close hobby friend and trusted his word I get what I deserve? I deserve to be out $3k? Because he blatantly lied to me, which I have attached images, yet you feel like I deserve this? Are you kidding me? There were no red flags with Jason prior to this. I didn't NEED to send them in to get authenticated because I trusted him. All we have is our word, right?

And BTW, I offer lifetime guarantees with ALL of my items if an autograph is proven to be bad. I have refunded a seller after a year no questions asked. There is no fine line limit like with a credit card.

[Bruinsfan94]

Really? That is what I get? So, because I trust a seller whom I thought was a close hobby friend and trusted his word I get what I deserve? I deserve to be out $3k? Because he blatantly lied to me, which I have attached images, yet you feel like I deserve this? Are you kidding me? There were no red flags with Jason prior to this. I didn't NEED to send them in to get authenticated because I trusted him. All we have is our word, right?

And BTW, I offer lifetime guarantees with ALL of my items if an autograph is proven to be bad. I have refunded a seller after a year no questions asked. There is no fine line limit like with a credit card.

Well the fact of the matter is that this guy told everyone that he would refund him the money, but now won't because I guess he feels slighted? That is extremely unethical.

[OldSchoolBaseball]

I agree that it's completely unreasonable to expect a refund after that amount of time. For authentication - 60 days max is acceptable for getting a response back and communicating to the seller.

Personally, I think the autos are good - PSA and other authentication companies sometimes just don't know, so they error on the side of "not authentic" but they get it wrong too.

I have an autograph signed at a dinner from a HOF'er, and since he was drunk off his ass, the auto is terrible and would never pass authentication.

I say sorry, learn from it and move on

[Republicaninmass]

I agree that it's completely unreasonable to expect a refund after that amount of time. For authentication - 60 days max is acceptable for getting a response back and communicating to the seller.

Personally, I think the autos are good - PSA and other authentication companies sometimes just don't know, so they error on the side of "not authentic" but they get it wrong too.

I have an autograph signed at a dinner from a HOF'er, and since he was drunk off his ass, the auto is terrible and would never pass authentication.

I say sorry, learn from it and move on


JSA took 12 weeks to get me a decision


What say you?

[TheNightmanCometh]

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It is interesting in terms of how long it is reasonable to ask for a refund people are citing 'regular business practices' such as what a credit card does and then what grading companies do and other examples in the hobby..

when i cited a regular business practice about whether auctions disclose soaking people said regular business practice means nothing if it is wrong etc.

well the seller can always offer more than what a business practice does so if the seller agrees to a refund years later for example, he agreed. When a seller says 'i would of refunded but for your attitude' that means he wouldnt of refunded and is making up a fake excuse.

There are certain things that it is entirely reasonable to ask for a refund years later. Issues such as fraud and collusion. If you learned for example someone from a grading company and a seller colluded to say a card you bought was real, then 6 years later you found out about the collusion and that is was a sure fake, i dont think you should just chalk that up as a loss.

So it all depends.

[bnorth]

When a seller says 'i would of refunded but for your attitude' that means he wouldnt of refunded and is making up a fake excuse.

I 100% agree with this.

[Republicaninmass]

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

+1. I took a signed Berra back I had signed through his foundation which had failed psa. It doesnt matter if an auto good or not, as long as it passes. Hence why I've used Richard Simon on authographs I need decisions and opinions on quickly. He's seen more fakes than most of the authenticators, and can at least explain why or why not items are questionable. At that point leaving it up to the buyer to decide.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.


Couldn't agree more and I have refunded items before, no questions asked after a year.

BTW, love your name, one of my favorite episodes :)

[savedfrommyspokes]

I sell off a fair number of my duplicates.....about once a month I try to delete the scans that are a year+ or older from my hard drive. Several years ago, my hard drive crashed....all of the images I had stored were unable to be accessed.

So, if after 3 years someone who purchased a (non-graded) card decides to return it, how can a seller verify that the card being returned is the same one sold if no scan is not available due to the "extreme" length of time that has passed?

Is it reasonable to expect a seller to keep every scan of every card they sell in their lifetime just in case a return comes up 2-5 years down the road?

What is a reasonable amount of time that a seller should maintain scans of items sold in order to verify a return?

Is it fair for a seller to take a return back that can't be verified by the scan used to sell it?


Not sure if any of this applies to this situation or not...... either way, 3 years is too long for any reasonable buyer to expect to be able to return an item.


Finally, I also have a HOFer's auto that was signed one day when he was in a hurry and it appears NOTHING like ANY other of his autos I have ever seen....

[irv]

Although I have never sold anything here or on E-Bay before, I believe there is a lesson to be learned here, and that is, every seller, no matter how big or how small, should clearly state in their posts/ads, how long their return policy is.

I was going to say 3 months but like, Ted, mentioned, it took him 3 months for an authentication so I don't think 6 months is unreasonable.

I know many know each other here, but despite that, it should still be clearly stated and adhered too.

[T206Collector]

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.

I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.

In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.



Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.



I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.



In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.


Paul,

I appreciate your response and always respect your opinion.

Unfortunately this won't get settled privately as he's shown an unwillingness to respond to my emails and only replying to this thread "because he felt like he needed to."

So, you don't have a problem with his lies? You don't have a problem with him lying about them being wife signed (they are)? You don't have a problem that he lied saying the OWNER OF JSA said these were good (when they aren't)? Why not get them authenticated himself then if they were good? Or, is he just massaging the truth. You don't have a problem with him saying that I can trade or return it if I am uncomfortable with it (as I've shown)? Granted, there was no time frame.

[Bruinsfan94]

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.

I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.

In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.


Paul I also respect your opinion, but the problem is he said he would have paid him back, had he been respected better. That is poor ethically right there.

[Jasonxmay]

I realize I'm replying when I said I wouldn't, but I think a few things need to be clarified.

First, Brent fails to mention that the Faber 33 Goudey came with a JSA auction house LOA, which I mailed him at the time of the trade.

Second, Brent messaged me on December 23, 2014 and informed me that someone had told him the Faber W517 was wife signed. Everyone has now seen my response, and I did offer to replace the card or send some cash his way if he wasn't comfortable with the Faber. Brent responded that same day and stated "I love the card and I have no issues with it. I recall we've talked about this card before. I totally trust you and have no problem what so ever. I just love the card, will go nicely with my Rousch." Brent emailed again on December 30, 2014, to tell me he received the cards. He wrote, "Got the cards Saturday, just amazing! So happy with them, thank you!"

I would have gladly reworked the deal at that point if Brent was uncomfortable with the Faber, but he clearly declined that offer. I never offered any type of guarantee that the card would pass authentication, and Brent never requested such a guarantee.

Brent and I have made dozens of deals in the past, and I have to assume the rest of the cards he obtained from me passed authentication since they aren't referenced in this thread.

If Brent had emailed explaining the situation and requesting that we work something out, I would have been much more willing to help resolve the situation. Brent may say his email wasn't demanding, but emailing out of the blue over two years later and stating "how should we go about refunding and returning?" sounds pretty demanding to me.

I hope this clarified my position a bit. I agree that I shouldn't have stated that I would have given him a refund had he been less demanding, as that may not be a true statement. I can say that I would have at least given it more consideration at that point. I suppose one good thing to come from this is that I know never to deal with Brent again. I'm sure he won't voice any objection to that.

Jason

[1952boyntoncollector]

I 100% agree with this.

Please note that bnorth agreed with something i said. I will save this post for posterity.

[slidekellyslide]

I personally would never try to return something 2-3 years after a deal had been made. If you are dealing in autographs that you think you need an opinion from a professional the courteous thing to do is to do it right away when you receive the item so a return is much easier if it fails authentication.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Of course I was happy and excited about the cards, I had no reason to worry at the time as I trusted you. Which I said multiple times and you never replied about. I wonder if that was a red flag, along with Simmons. A year prior, you tried selling it to me for $2,500. Why half off and sell it to me for $1,250? Is it because you knew it was not authentic and you were just passing it along to the next guy? Just like your bad ones of Bottomley and Hornsby that you tried selling me?

I'd be glad to pay to have Richard or Jim look at these and offer their opinions. I have in the past on cards you've offered to me, that failed from their perspective.

And yes, I do apologize for me being better in my original email. I admit that I certainly could have worked it better.

[Paul S]

oops wrong thread

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I personally would never try to return something 2-3 years after a deal had been made. If you are dealing in autographs that you think you need an opinion from a professional the courteous thing to do is to do it right away when you receive the item so a return is much easier if it fails authentication.


I agree for the most part. He was so adamant they were authentic that I trusted him (like I always had before) and had no reason to send them in. They (JSA) happened to be in town so I thought it would be convenient to finally get them done, along with others. I thought he would be willing and easy to do a return with as I sure as hell would have in the same circumstances.

[Republicaninmass]

Interesting little factoid

I bought an expensive card privately and the seller said " i dont know if its real, let me know what psa says"

The card fails psa

Seller didnt specifically offer a guarantee, although he offered it to me as an " autographed card" when it was not.It was now defaced, and worth less than an unsigned card.


My counsel lost in court, since he had said "he didnt know"

[oldjudge]

And BTW, I offer lifetime guarantees with ALL of my items if an autograph is proven to be bad. I have refunded a seller after a year no questions asked. There is no fine line limit like with a credit card.

Who's lifetime? What if the buyer lives longer than you--can he get a refund from your estate?

[PhillipAbbott79]

Really? That is what I get? So, because I trust a seller whom I thought was a close hobby friend and trusted his word I get what I deserve? I deserve to be out $3k? Because he blatantly lied to me, which I have attached images, yet you feel like I deserve this? Are you kidding me? There were no red flags with Jason prior to this. I didn't NEED to send them in to get authenticated because I trusted him. All we have is our word, right?

And BTW, I offer lifetime guarantees with ALL of my items if an autograph is proven to be bad. I have refunded a seller after a year no questions asked. There is no fine line limit like with a credit card.


Yes. Really. If it happened the way you state, that is correct.

Friend? Do you guys go to the movies together? Bowling? Drink beers. Visit on the weekends when you have down time? Would he watch your dog for you if you went away?

What is your definition of a friend? Most people I know are simply acquaintances that when the rubber meets the road don't give a damn about anyone other than themselves. I have few real friends. Ones that would help me bury a body should I need assistance. Ones that would let me stay at their house until I got on my feet.

The world is full of people that befriend someone so that they trust them only to turn around and blatantly rip them off. Don't you ever watch American Greed on CNBC? There are people that rip off their own family. Why is everyone so disappointed when trust is broken? Why do you think that it can't happen to you. Apparently by your account it did.

No offense, but your anger is laughable. Assume that you can trust no one, even the people you consider friends, and this will never happen to you. As long as you think you can trust anyone, you are susceptible to be ripped off.

Street smarts guy....STREET SMARTS. :rolleyes:

[7nohitter]

Yes. Really. If it happened the way you state, that is correct.

Friend? Do you guys go to the movies together? Bowling? Drink beers. Visit on the weekends when you have down time? Would he watch your dog for you if you went away?

What is your definition of a friend? Most people I know are simply acquaintances that when the rubber meets the road don't give a damn about anyone other than themselves. I have few real friends. Ones that would help me bury a body should I need assistance. Ones that would let me stay at their house until I got on my feet.

The world is full of people that befriend someone so that they trust them only to turn around and blatantly rip them off. Don't you ever watch American Greed on CNBC? There are people that rip off their own family. Why is everyone so disappointed when trust is broken? Why do you think that it can't happen to you. Apparently by your account it did.

No offense, but your anger is laughable. Assume that you can trust no one, even the people you consider friends, and this will never happen to you. As long as you think you can trust anyone, you are susceptible to be ripped off.

Street smarts guy....STREET SMARTS. :rolleyes:

Abbott,

I don't know Brent or Jason so I cannot comment on their friendship. However, I do 100% agree with your assessment of friend vs. acquaintance.

[PhillipAbbott79]

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Yes. Really. If it happened the way you state, that is correct.



Friend? Do you guys go to the movies together? Bowling? Drink beers. Visit on the weekends when you have down time? Would he watch your dog for you if you went away?



What is your definition of a friend? Most people I know are simply acquaintances that when the rubber meets the road don't give a damn about anyone other than themselves. I have few real friends. Ones that would help me bury a body should I need assistance. Ones that would let me stay at their house until I got on my feet.



The world is full of people that befriend someone so that they trust them only to turn around and blatantly rip them off. Don't you ever watch American Greed on CNBC? There are people that rip off their own family. Why is everyone so disappointed when trust is broken? Why do you think that it can't happen to you. Apparently by your account it did.



No offense, but your anger is laughable. Assume that you can trust no one, even the people you consider friends, and this will never happen to you. As long as you think you can trust anyone, you are susceptible to be ripped off.



Street smarts guy....STREET SMARTS. :rolleyes:


Oh get off your high horse lol. I guess Phillip Abbott is damn near perfect, who knew.

What is my definition of a friend? Well, mine certainly includes relationships that aren't only face to face and can come over to watch your house. I guess only true friends are the ones that will watch your dog. I have plenty of board members whom I view as friends (hi Chuck) and have had great personal conversations with. But since it's online and I've never met them face to face, they aren't my friend, according to you. And yes, if I dropped dead I certainly would entrust some of these board members to help sell my collection.

Anger laughable? Ok...I actually think my anger has been pretty good compared with what I actually want to say :).

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.


True, to an extent. But this is largely opinionated as others, including myself, have said that we have refunded an item that sold over a year ago.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Oh get off your high horse lol. I guess Phillip Abbott is damn near perfect, who knew.

What is my definition of a friend? Well, mine certainly includes relationships that aren't only face to face and can come over to watch your house. I guess only true friends are the ones that will watch your dog. I have plenty of board members whom I view as friends (hi Chuck) and have had great personal conversations with. But since it's online and I've never met them face to face, they aren't my friend, according to you. And yes, if I dropped dead I certainly would entrust some of these board members to help sell my collection.

Anger laughable? Ok...I actually think my anger has been pretty good compared with what I actually want to say :).

I am not perfect, but I understand how the world functions and have some basic street smarts. Feel free to continue trusting everyone. We will await your next "I got ripped off" post.

Anger laughable. Yes, I am laughing at the fact that you got angry over something you could have easily prevented. No offense, he handed you a shovel and you dug this whole all on your own. You could have easily not trusted him, sent it in long ago and requested it be corrected right then and there and most likely have met less resistance.

[PhillipAbbott79]

True, to an extent. But this is largely opinionated as others, including myself, have said that we have refunded an item that sold over a year ago.

Yes. It comes down to a few factors. Most people like to believe when they sell something, if they are genuine about what they sell, that items are sold as is and they can walk away from it without a never ending responsibility to it after it leaves their hands.

If you were to sell a car, would you want to keep getting text messages from the guy that bought it every time it needs some work? A lot of people sell things to absolve themselves from it.

If you misrepresent an item intentionally, then all rules are out the window. You deserve to be on the hook forever if someone comes back.

[Econteachert205]

To me both people in this conflict come out not looking terribly well which is too bad.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am not perfect, but I understand how the world functions and have some basic street smarts. Feel free to continue trusting everyone. We will await your next "I got ripped off" post.



Anger laughable. Yes, I am laughing at the fact that you got angry over something you could have easily prevented. No offense, he handed you a shovel and you dug this whole all on your own. You could have easily not trusted him, sent it in long ago and requested it be corrected right then and there and most likely have met less resistance.


I have plenty of knowledge of this cruel world and plenty of street smarts; but that doesn't mean I trust everyone nor don't trust anyone. I certainly trust people, but I NEVER trust anyone 100%. Never. Not my wife, best friend, parents etc . But that's not to say I didn't trust him.

Could it have easily been prevented? Yes and no. What if he said no still back then? I'm certainly not saying I could have done a better job on my end. Like I said previously, I had no dire need or desire to send them out. They were in town and thought it was,convenient so why not.

LOL, there is no hole. If I had not trusted him then why would I trust he would give me a return then?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

We will await your next "I got ripped off" post.


And, eagerly await my next rip off post? Who is this "we" you speak of. Haha yes, cause in the 10 years I've been collecting this is the first one I've ever started for this. Better get your popcorn ready for 2027!!

[T206Collector]

So, you don't have a problem with his lies? You don't have a problem with him lying about them being wife signed (they are)? You don't have a problem that he lied saying the OWNER OF JSA said these were good (when they aren't)? Why not get them authenticated himself then if they were good? Or, is he just massaging the truth. You don't have a problem with him saying that I can trade or return it if I am uncomfortable with it (as I've shown)? Granted, there was no time frame.

I just think this aspect of the dispute is not really subject to an objective review - these are disputed facts. On the undisputed facts, I can't imagine trying to return cards in the time frame you were working in.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I just think this aspect of the dispute is not really subject to an objective review - these are disputed facts. On the undisputed facts, I can't imagine trying to return cards in the time frame you were working in.


Got it, thanks for the clarification.

[Duluth Eskimo]

What many people seem to be missing is that what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. No matter the time limit. I have bought and sold autographs along with other memorabilia for over 30 years and have never left someone hanging if an issue like this pops up. These issues come up and as a seller, you are representing something as authentic when it is sold. Even if I don't agree with what PSA or JSA say, I would still refund their money or make it right.

On a side note, and hopefully I am not speaking out of turn, at this same show Brent attended I was speaking with a friend and colleague in the autograph business. He informed me that he recently had an item fail authentication that was sold by Jim Stinson many many years ago, but still had the invoice that he kept with all of his personal collection. He contacted Jim and without hesitation, Jim issued him a full refund, fully explained the situation that led to how he picked up the item, and took responsibility for the situation. A highly commendable move on his part that I thought was worth sharing.

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

[T206Collector]

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

I think that this noble principle is at tension with the context, particularly the timing. This isn't the GAP taking a return from a customer years after selling a pair of pants without asking questions. This is two collectors making arms length trades, sales and purchases, with a lot of time passing. If the "right thing to do" for the seller is to issue a refund, the "right thing to do" for the buyer is not to ask for one in this case.

[Jewish-collector]

This thread is actually interesting to read thru. I don't know why. Maybe because, sometimes you just gotta say WTF.

[steve B]

What many people seem to be missing is that what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. No matter the time limit. I have bought and sold autographs along with other memorabilia for over 30 years and have never left someone hanging if an issue like this pops up. These issues come up and as a seller, you are representing something as authentic when it is sold. Even if I don't agree with what PSA or JSA say, I would still refund their money or make it right.

On a side note, and hopefully I am not speaking out of turn, at this same show Brent attended I was speaking with a friend and colleague in the autograph business. He informed me that he recently had an item fail authentication that was sold by Jim Stinson many many years ago, but still had the invoice that he kept with all of his personal collection. He contacted Jim and without hesitation, Jim issued him a full refund, fully explained the situation that led to how he picked up the item, and took responsibility for the situation. A highly commendable move on his part that I thought was worth sharing.

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

That right there is how it should be.

The stamp and coin guy I've gone to since the mid 80's took back a coin that failed grading as "altered" I saw it, and yes, it was altered.
The whole thing was done very easily, both of them recalled the sale but not the actual price. Buyer thought it had been "about X" and the dealer thought that sounded about right. Return, refund, coin labeled fake and kept in a special spot.
Oh yeah, the time between sale and return 10 years+

There's a reason I still go there after 30 years.

Steve B

[Cobra Kai]

Brent, have you heard anything else from Jason?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Brent, have you heard anything else from Jason?


I have not.

[Leon]

I have given a return and refund on a Dizzy Dean card after 2 yrs because the guy said he thought it was someone else on the card. :) . I take it on a case by case basis but usually will give a refund.

[autograf]

Tough situation. Like most here, I think the time to return should be something less than 2-3 years. If most all your cards were graded or with letters, I can't understand why these cards would sit in your collection for years before you decide to authenticate them. For those kind of dollars, I would want as immediate confirmation as possible. Not sure there's a good solution. Maybe splitting the cost down the middle. Then you'll still have two pissed off people.

And I really don't like that Simmons........the Fabers look pretty good though. There's the rub with buying raw autographs. They might all be fake, but with a letter or encapsulated, most people aren't gonna question them at that point.

[Sean]

I have given a return and refund on a Dizzy Dean card after 2 yrs because the guy said he thought it was someone else on the card. :) . I take it on a case by case basis but usually will give a refund.

Whom did he think it was on the card? :confused:

[Leon]

Whom did he think it was on the card? :confused:

Actually, now that I recall, I believe it was Paul instead of Dizzy. But to take that long to figure out who it was, well, I just said ok because of the situation. It was someone I know and don't have a great rapport with. It was easier and better just to take it back.

it was like this card but not this one.. I guess he bought it thinking it was Dizzy...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1934-Gold-Medal-Flour-Paul-Dean-PSA-GOOD-2-p00835-/201103085501?hash=item2ed2ad8fbd:g:aqMAAOxyR7tTkRh B


ps.... back to the subject at hand....I don't know autographs so will bow out of it....
.

[clydepepper]

Here's the Dizzy card from the same set:

265972

[JEFFV96MASTERS]

Pardon me for using common sense but why is the questionable stuff still being discussed in 2017 ?? Shouldn't this have been handled by sending it out to be looked at by the experts years ago ( back in 2014 from those texts) and a decision rendered back then ? And a compromise worked out back then :confused:


Jeff

p.s. Stop using JSA please- its not a "reliable" resource for vintage autos

p.s.s . Steve B-- Mike and Pete can I ask ??

[Jersey City Giants]

No card or money is worth your reputation period.

[steve B]

p.s.s . Steve B-- Mike and Pete can I ask ??

Of course you can ask.

I don't quite get the question though?
The stamp and coin guy I go to is Mark Processi who owns Alan stamp and coin in Woodbury, CT
The customer was some random guy I didn't know.

I got to see a lot of stuff since I hung out at the shop for hours at a time. Maybe 3-4 hours some days, at least a couple days a week. After a while he'd give me store credit for doing some work. Sorting stuff, stapling coins into the 2x2 holders, pricing stamps. that sort of stuff.

Steve B

[Grammont]

My wife is laying next to me reading a book, im on my phone reading this thread. No doubt this has been a lot more interesting than "Sunrise Crossing"
Hope it works out for all involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Just an update. Still no communications from Jason at all about trying to work something out.

[slidekellyslide]

Maybe he didn't budget for someone coming back 3 years later for a refund?

[Gradedcardman]

Maybe he didn't budget for someone coming back 3 years later for a refund?

Who does ?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Maybe he didn't budget for someone coming back 3 years later for a refund?


Maybe, maybe not. I can't speak on his behalf. But, maybe he should because of all of the bad autographs he has sold and tried to sell over the years.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Lol.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Who does ?

I am sorry. That is not the correct answer. We were looking or "Who is nobody?".

Ridiculous time frames for a thousand Alex.

[Gradedcardman]

i am sorry. That is not the correct answer. We were looking or "who is nobody?".

Ridiculous time frames for a thousand alex.

lol

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.

I agree unless there was fraud involved which doesnt sound like the case here.

However even if it is unreasonable to ask for a refund for a 10 year transaction for example and just because you dont like the color anymore, IF the seller says he will refund it or make a trade of certain trade value, he is now on the hook if he does not come through. All the seller had to say was, 'its been 2 years buddy' no refunds.

Plus this nonsense:

"If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness"

And then there is a later email saying that was probably not the truth by the seller. So now there are two issues the buy can rely on as to why he should get a refund even it is a ridiculous amount of time.

Basically any party can agree to something more than is in a contract if they want but they dont have to in the first place. They shouldnt of offered it up.

Your rent is due in 30 days, but you get an email from the landlord saying he will agree to another 70 days to pay. Well, now you got 70 days. Need to be careful what you say actually, though we do live in an age of alternative facts. Hope you enjoy my net54 grammar.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I agree unless there was fraud involved which doesnt sound like the case here.

However even if it is unreasonable to ask for a refund for a 10 year transaction for example and just because you dont like the color anymore, IF the seller says he will refund it or make a trade of certain trade value, he is now on the hook if he does not come through. All the seller had to say was, 'its been 2 years buddy' no refunds.

Plus this nonsense:

"If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness"

And then there is a later email saying that was probably not the truth by the seller. So now there are two issues the buy can rely on as to why he should get a refund even it is a ridiculous amount of time.

Basically any party can agree to something more than is in a contract if they want but they dont have to in the first place. They shouldnt of offered it up.

Your rent is due in 30 days, but you get an email from the landlord saying he will agree to another 70 days to pay. Well, now you got 70 days. Need to be careful what you say actually, though we do live in an age of alternative facts. Hope you enjoy my net54 grammar.


Yeah, it has certainly been interesting to say the least.

I totally believe he knew exactly what he was doing selling me these cards and passing on the bad ones to others.

On my end, I typically don't send out cards to get graded. But, I've certainly will be sending them out after I receive them to avoid and potential issues. I admit I certainly could have been better in those regards.

But I whole heartedly am willing to bet this was all part of his plan. Trying to sell the Simmons a year prior for $2,500 then offers $1,250 (because he knows it's bad). Or his "Hornsby". That's a $5k+ card that he tried selling for around $1,500. The list goes on and on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I may have missed this, but on cards purchased in Dec. 2014, why wait until 2017 to submit them for authentication?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I may have missed this, but on cards purchased in Dec. 2014, why wait until 2017 to submit them for authentication?


Had no real dire need to send them in. I don't really like to mail out that many expensive cards and would rather do IP services. But after this, I'm certainly going to send stuff in right away to hopefully avoid any potential issues down the road.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I may have missed this, but on cards purchased in Dec. 2014, why wait until 2017 to submit them for authentication?

Yes thats bad. However the guy said he would refund him or something like that.

You can owe a debt and the statute of limitations passes and then make another agreement to pay. The clock starts again. So the first clock started 3 years ago but the second clock started only for a week or so when the guy found out the seller wasnt going to come through

Shouldnt keep starting up clock