52 Mantle Vs T206 Cobb

[PhillipAbbott79]

If you had to chose an investment card to hold for 5 to 10 years which card would you chose. Let us assume you have 20,000 dollars to spend and you spent it all on one card. The goal would obviously be to pick the card that has the least amount of chance to go down, and the highest up side for profit.

The grades and prices are not an exact science obviously but I hope you can see what is intended by the question.

To re-iterate the concept, the idea is not who you like more or what you collect, but rather what you think is a better investment.

[ullmandds]

personally I'd take the best green t206 cobb I could find over a comparable mantle as a long term investment.

[sterlingfox]

Green Cobb all the way. In fact, I'd choose almost any Cobb/Ruth/Gehrig out there that's currently 20k market value over a 52 Mantle.

There are too many Mantles out there, especially in the lower grades, regardless of its status as the most important post war card in existence.

[Jason]

Green Cobb though it may be possible neither would have been a good investment in 20 years though I believe the Cobb stands a better chance.

[KendallCat]

Mantle all day every day. Does not take away from the Cobb at all, but you are talking the gold standard that transcends baseball and sports cards versus a card most people know nothing about. I think that answers your question right there.

[packs]

I'd rather have the Mantle. It transcends cards whereas the Cobb is just a grail to people who collect cards, and maybe not even really on that level to people who don't collect pre-war. I was able to pick up a very nice T206 Cobb Green graded SGC 20 for technical reasons for $1,600 but I would never be able to pick up the Mantle for that, even a terrible one. That alone signifies where the cards are headed if you ask me.

[58pinson]

In keeping with the spirit of the thread I voted for the Mantle. Under the conditions stated it would be my choice. No knock on Mr. Cobb but the Mantle is a truly iconic piece of Americana, and I hate the word iconic.
That said, if the $20k is an investment vehicle I think laying it all into one card is not diversified enough. My limited 2¢ from the bleachers.

[Rookiemonster]

Mantle is my choice .

He is the better player

More iconic.

It's a topps card.

It's gaining more recognition then the Cobb will ever get.

I'm a Yankees fan.

Some shmucks still think it's his rookie

[gemmint77]

I would go with the Mantle. Already own a nice red T206 Cobb. That Mantle card would hold value better over the years to come. Good luck

[Sean]

I would take the Cobb, but of course I'm a T206 guy.

[rats60]

Cobb was the better player. Mantle is over hyped and overpriced. Cobb will continue to rise. One day the Mantle bubble will burst. As others have said, too many out there, especially in low grades.

[EvilKing00]

i voted cobb - BUT as a real estate broker id strongly advise buying either card over solar panels.

[PhillipAbbott79]

To re-iterate the concept, the idea is not who you like more or what you collect, but rather what you think is a better investment having the highest gains over the given time period.

[Touch'EmAll]

Mantle is in the wheelhouse of the Baby Boomers. They saw him, they were in awe of him, they have the Mantle hype near their whole life. What might happen as the baby boomers pass? Then we are left with collectors who aren't in so close touch with Mantle. He will always be top tier icon/player, but might his "pull" subside? I, for instance, agree Mantle is Big Time. But for my budget, I feel he is overvalued and thus have not put money into his cards. I would rather put my money elsewhere (T206 HOF'ers and the like). Will more people feel the way I do as more time passes? The hype of the crowd frenzy and keep up with the Jones' mentality could continue strong as ever...or not?

[sterlingfox]

+1

My thoughts exactly. Once the baby boomers pass and the Mantle hype subsides, the valuation on the 52T will soon follow suit.

The much harder to find pre-war cards will, on the other hand, continue to rise.

Mantle is in the wheelhouse of the Baby Boomers. They saw him, they were in awe of him, they have the Mantle hype near their whole life. What might happen as the baby boomers pass? Then we are left with collectors who aren't in so close touch with Mantle. He will always be top tier icon/player, but might his "pull" subside? I, for instance, agree Mantle is Big Time. But for my budget, I feel he is overvalued and thus have not put money into his cards. I would rather put my money elsewhere (T206 HOF'ers and the like). Will more people feel the way I do as more time passes? The hype of the crowd frenzy and keep up with the Jones' mentality could continue strong as ever...or not?

[brian1961]

Why must we bring who was the better player into the discussion? So often that issue is brought up into these threads, and it's rather immature to the reality of why collectors go for particular players.

Some of you pre-war guys seem to be "licking your chops" with glee in anticipation of the advancing age of the Baby Boom generation, when Mickey Mantle cards will finally fulfill your Chicken Little rants.

Some players are timeless. The poll consists of two players---both timeless.

It seems to me you will do well with either one, but personally, I would select the card you would be much less emotionally attached to. So, when the ten-year-mark comes around, you won't bat an eye parting with the piece.

Investing in solar panels seems like a good idea, as long as they do what they're supposed to. What happens if baseball-size hail pummels them? Or even golf ball-sized? In retrospect, if a natural disaster hits, you may need to sell that Mantle or Cobb sooner than you think, if it survives the disaster. Moreover, if you survive the disaster.

Off the subject, am I? Maybe it's a better subject, only for a reality check.

Distill this all away, and it comes back to, "My dog's better than your dog."

At least with Ty and Mick, their legacies are monumental, and doubtless will stand firm. As will Babe Ruth.

There is a problem with some players---few cards, coins, premiums were made of them. Their legacies suffer for it, to a degree. A lot of nice Cobbs were crafted, and more so of Mickey. The poll involves their two finest mainstream card. So what card will do the best, you insist? I don't care. It's just as picking which stock will do the best in the long-term.

For the mean time, it is obvious investing in cards is doing a whole lot better than what any bank is offering.

Keep your cool. Cheers. ---Brian Powell

[packs]

Is the Cobb Green really much harder to find though? It is available any time you wish to buy it from my experience. I don't think the same is true of the Mantle and each time the Mantle comes up for auction it's always a featured lot.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I'd buy the nicest SGC/PSA 2 Mantle I could find and then spend the rest on the nicest Green Cobb I could find (SGC/PSA 3-4). That's if it had to be between just those two cards

[Huysmans]

With respect to a few of the past posters, the only individual that truly transcends baseball as a freestanding American institution is Ruth, and the only card that fits that bill is the Wagner. I've had the "importance of baseball cards" discussion with a number of antique dealers over the years including individuals that specialize in Americana and I can honestly say neither Mantle nor his 52 Topps card has ever been brought up. The stature of Ruth, and of the T206 Wagner.....yes, but Mantle? No, never.

As others have postulated, once the gap is generated between Mantle and his contemporary living collectors in the years to come, the rarity and much smaller available supply of green Cobbs will dominate in both desirability and value.

[oldjudge]

The Mantle is an overhyped card of an overvalued player. I grew up in the Bronx in the 1950-60s (an avid Yankee fan) and saw Mantle play in person a lot. If you had asked 50 Yankee fans during this time who the greatest Yankee center fielder of all time was, 49 would have said DiMaggio. Mantle struck out too much. Even with the Yankee line-up he rarely knocked in 100 runs in a season, and was replaced for defensive purposes in late innings. Bottom line, if these are my two choices I go with the Cobb every time.

[sterlingfox]

Is the Cobb Green really much harder to find though? It is available any time you wish to buy it from my experience. I don't think the same is true of the Mantle and each time the Mantle comes up for auction it's always a featured lot.

There are about 10x as many 52T Mantles PSA graded 3 vs PSA 6 Green Cobbs.

[packs]

Doesn't it say something about the strength of the cards when one is worth the same as the other in twice the grade?

[PhillipAbbott79]

If the supply and demand ratios are different they could appreciate at different rates. Currently the Cobb is undergoing a ridiculous boom. That doesn't mean in 10 years it will be worth what its max appreciation was along the way. As mentioned in the poll, which is going to be worth at that point in time and why do you think that.

[bn2cardz]

Is the Cobb Green really much harder to find though? It is available any time you wish to buy it from my experience. I don't think the same is true of the Mantle and each time the Mantle comes up for auction it's always a featured lot.

On ebay there are currently 34 52 Topps Mantles and 8 T206 green Cobbs (only counted graded copies to assure legitimacy).

Between just those two cards I would take the Cobb. As mentioned Mantle (more specifically the 52 Topps Mantle) is over-hyped by good publicity. Three points were used in this publicity that are all myths.
1) He was the best player - Mays can be argued to be better, even if you don't agree the fact that the argument can be made shows they are at least comparable
2) It is his rookie - It isn't. That would be 1951 Bowman. Even if you argue it is his "Topps Rookie" then explain why the 1958 Topps Musial isn't described as such? Even though he too would be considered a better player by people.
3) It is a high number in a popular set - It is a high number, but there is evidence that it was double printed which reverses the "high number" scarcity concept.

At the end of the day it is TOPPS first iconic card. Since they are still in business and the only authorized distributor of Topps cards they keep pushing this card through reprints and other advertising. If MLB does what NBA and NFL did and ever change to Panini (Topps contract is up in 2020) it is possible they will lose this persuasive stature.

Since Cobb should all ready be smoothed out on prices his cards will continue at the same pace all other cards will within the t206 set. I believe it is the safer buy. If you are the riskier buyer Mantle could have the more upside, but you don't want to be the one left holding the bag in the end.

[mickey7mantle7]

Does a vote count towards my post count?

[packs]

I see some people's point on the Mantle as it relates to boomers but I don't see how an even older card of an even older player would surpass a more recent one, if boomer die off is what you're saying will drop the Mantle card's price.

[EvilKing00]

With respect to a few of the past posters, the only individual that truly transcends baseball as a freestanding American institution is Ruth, and the only card that fits that bill is the Wagner. I've had the "importance of baseball cards" discussion with a number of antique dealers over the years including individuals that specialize in Americana and I can honestly say neither Mantle nor his 52 Topps card has ever been brought up. The stature of Ruth, and of the T206 Wagner.....yes, but Mantle? No, never.

As others have postulated, once the gap is generated between Mantle and his contemporary living collectors in the years to come, the rarity and much smaller available supply of green Cobbs will dominate in both desirability and value.

completely agree - if im spending 20k or 1k its on a ruth card

[bn2cardz]

I see some people's point on the Mantle as it relates to boomers but I don't see how an even older card of an even older player would surpass a more recent one, if boomer die off is what you're saying will drop the Mantle card's price.

It is that there isn't anyone elevating Cobb's prices based on nostalgia, so his prices will be determined by other things (ie interest in t206). If Mantle's prices are elevated by nostalgia then when that dissipates the prices will adjust.

[packs]

That makes sense. Well I hope everyone is right about the Cobb because I don't have the Mantle.

[CW]

Mickey Mantle.

[Republicaninmass]

+1

My thoughts exactly. Once the baby boomers pass and the Mantle hype subsides, the valuation on the 52T will soon follow suit.

The much harder to find pre-war cards will, on the other hand, continue to rise.

Amd thats when I will scoop them all up MUAHAUHA

neck and neck right now

Id buy the cobb

[KendallCat]

The Mantle is an overhyped card of an overvalued player. I grew up in the Bronx in the 1950-60s (an avid Yankee fan) and saw Mantle play in person a lot. If you had asked 50 Yankee fans during this time who the greatest Yankee center fielder of all time was, 49 would have said DiMaggio. Mantle struck out too much. Even with the Yankee line-up he rarely knocked in 100 runs in a season, and was replaced for defensive purposes in late innings. Bottom line, if these are my two choices I go with the Cobb every time.

Could not disagree more and the hobby and collectors disagree with you as well. Curious as to why you say he was an overhyped player? Joe Namath was an overhyped player for sure. Terry Bradshaw numbers wise as well. What people look at along with stats is wining and doing it on the greatest and largest stage there is - Super Bowl, World Series, Olympics...

Numbers wise Marino smokes about every QB of all time, but when the GOAT conversation comes up the first name you hear is Joe Montana. Why? 4-4 in the Super Bowl.

Not sure why the hate for Mantle but when you win 7 WS titles in 18 seasons and hold WS records for HR's, RBI's, hits, total bases, runs... I think you are doing ok. Biggest stage he was the best. Some are going to argue "well he played in the most WS so of course he has the records." Ruth had 50% more WS at bats yet he does not hold those records.

"Mantle did not have a lot of RBI's." His RBI total of 1500+ is decent, but you have to look at why this was the case. His number of walks was huge as well as his number of runs scored. He led the league in walks and runs scored 5 times as well as OBP 3 times. He also had seasons where he hit 37 and 40 HR's but under 100 RBI's - that means players were not on base when he got up.

One thing that many are not aware of was he was the fastest player in the game despite injuring his knee as a rookie in the WS, and most who saw him play knew how much it took away from his power and speed. Despite playing his entire career with multiple injuries he put up huge numbers. Back then when you injured your ACL there were no surgeries- you played through it. Not to mention nobody could hit a ball back then or now as far as he could and he was only 5'11 and 190 lbs.

"Once the baby boomers die off nobody will want his cards." Just like people collect Ruth and Cobb and Gehrig and never saw them play they still collect them and always will. Paintings 300-400 years old still outsell modern artists by millions and for good reason. "If" the Mantle cards die off the hobby will as well. Without him the hobby would not be near the worth it is today. Mantle still is the highest priced card in every set most years except for a key rookie or two. What does that tell you?

Overhyped and overrated? One can have different opinions, but don't let ones not liking a player turn into baseball history ignorance. People love winners and very few did it better than the Mick.

[Bicem]

Cobb... less overrated card of the two in my opinion.

[donniebaseball]

This is an interesting discussion presented by the OP. We are obviously talking about two heavy hitters in the hobby and for most it will come down to what they like to collect. Scarcity is an important factor when breaking ties.

Here is what the POP report looks like:

#311
2.5 - 48
3 - 167

Green Cobb
5.5 - 3
6 - 17

I would argue that looking strictly at these POP numbers doesn't tell the whole story with the 52T Mantle. How many examples from the 215 Mantles graded here are perfectly centered with a great color/registration combo? My guess would be not many. If we could quantify this the scarcity conversation may change a bit.

To answer the OP's question I would prefer the 52T Mantle. This card fits within what I like to collect and I think it will hold its value well into the future. However, I understand the other side of the argument. Splitting hairs between two cards that shape our hobby.

[Joshchisox08]

Cobbie but my vote is biased. Cobb is my favorite player of all time. The set is my favorite set of all time. And that particular card is one that I "may" own one day........................

[mark evans]

It all seems to me to be a crapshoot. I don't see how anyone can predict future value of any card with any confidence. I think there is at least some chance that the vintage card hobby will take a hit as baby boomers become replaced by kids who grew up on video games. And, not to be cynical, there is always the possibility that general economic conditions will cause a reduction in disposable income as we come to terms with the national debt or for other reasons.

If you enjoy collecting, just buy what you like and can afford.

[iwantitiwinit]

if I had too make a choice I'd take the Cobb and for 3 reasons: 1) if values don't rise I'd rather have the higher quality card 2) while mantle is currently more popular in 20 years I feel he will be less iconic because collectors memories of him playing will wane and that population of those actually having seen him play will shrink dramatically and 3) there are far fewer examples of the Cobb available.

[packs]

How do people feel about the likelihood of a Cobb PSA 6 being trimmed? Does that detract you from the card at all? Would be tough to slip a trimmed Mantle by but I have heard many times that high grade cards from the era are trim suspects at least part of the time. With such a low number of 6's, is that card a candidate in the future?

[bbcard1]

I don't know that I would do either...if you decide to chances are that your dividend is the pride and enjoyment you get from owning the card...so figure out which one you like best.

If you like Mantle, I might go with a 1994 Mantle/Griffey Upper Deck Dual auto...you will have the iconic players for two generations.

[mickey7mantle7]

Cobb for rarity


Mantle because he's my favorite


So...

I'd get a Cobb though because letting it go years down the road for profit will not hold any sentimental value as the Mantle would.


I would then use the profit I've gained on a higher graded 52 Mantle...duh!

[Touch'EmAll]

Also consider eye appeal.

A PSA 2.5 to 3 Mantle is getting near the beater class, and toss in poor centering then the card would have poor eye appeal.

Then a 5.5 to 6 Cobb Green - Wow! could actually be a very nice eye pleasing card exhibiting solid coloring, nice focus, well centered, clean boarders, and high end for the issue status as well.

As far as just nice to look at...the Cobb.

[conor912]

If I was buying a card strictly for investment, it would be Ruth, all day every day. He is king....hands down.

The argument that Mantle prices will drop once baby boomers die off is silly. One could easily have made the same argument for all the pre-war players, but look where we are.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Strictly investment. That is the conversation. Prediction is not required. It is a guess with reasoning. I am curious to hear the reasoning behind your guess given this exact choice, and only this choice, with only this motivation.

Ruth is not on the discussion block and not an option in the poll. It is not about the player. Only about the card.

[iwantitiwinit]

Strictly investment. That is the conversation. Prediction is not required. It is a guess with reasoning. I am curious to hear the reasoning behind your guess given this exact choice, and only this choice, with only this motivation.

Ruth is not on the discussion block and not an option in the poll. It is not about the player. Only about the card.

Geez relax. Also, sorry to inform you but prediction is required...To invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future.

[camlov2]

I am going to be that one guy who picks solar panels. Over time you should be able to get your money back and buy one of the cards anyway, right? :D

[clydepepper]

I voted for the Cobb for two reasons:

First, I try not to purchase cards with grades less than EX

Secondly, the '52 Mantle is WAY overpriced!

[ty_cobb]

Your cost is always jacked for Topps 52, so you have to pay more up front, in my mind. Your return is mitigated by upfront cost. Also T206 collectors, collect different ways. They will do HOF subsets, or team subsets , or you can just pick the 4 poses. There will always be demand for the Cobb.

[KendallCat]

Also consider eye appeal.

A PSA 2.5 to 3 Mantle is getting near the beater class, and toss in poor centering then the card would have poor eye appeal.

Then a 5.5 to 6 Cobb Green - Wow! could actually be a very nice eye pleasing card exhibiting solid coloring, nice focus, well centered, clean boarders, and high end for the issue status as well.

As far as just nice to look at...the Cobb.

Not all PSA 2.5/3 Mantles are beater class. With the Mantle centering is key and maybe 10% have decent centering and eye appeal. Tons of 5's-7's with 75/25 centering which makes the card not very attractive. BTW - I would prefer my PSA 3 beater over any Cobb 5/6.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/image.jpg1_zpsv6hy5br2.jpg

[ty_cobb]

you have a very nice Mantle. undergraded. something to hold on to :)

[MVSNYC]

Interesting topic. I have been a "T206 guy" for 25 years, and have owned some pretty cool cards. I've toiled with this very question, the one posed by the OP. Last year I decided to "branch-out" and invest in one (killer) card. I chose a clean, centered 52 Topps Mantle, a grade slightly higher than the OP mentioned. I'm very happy with it. It's incredibly iconic and gives you the chills when holding it. I would LOVE a nice Green Cobb (as I'm a big T206 collector), but, at the end of the day...a 52 Mantle, is a 52 Mantle.

[DeanH3]

I would argue that looking strictly at these POP numbers doesn't tell the whole story with the 52T Mantle. How many examples from the 215 Mantles graded here are perfectly centered with a great color/registration combo? My guess would be not many. If we could quantify this the scarcity conversation may change a bit.

This is also very true for the green Cobb as well. VERY difficult to find nicely centered with nice coloring and registration in ANY grade.

I voted Cobb, however, I would LOVE to own a '52 Mantle. I think both will do well over time.

[Enfuego]

I would think the Mantle 52T would be more sought after Because of the consistent trend of "Main Eventing" in various Auctions. Sure, Cobb is definitely a household name too, but a lot of baseball fans tend to think of names like Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Gehrig, etc.

[mark evans]

Not all PSA 2.5/3 Mantles are beater class. With the Mantle centering is key and maybe 10% have decent centering and eye appeal. Tons of 5's-7's with 75/25 centering which makes the card not very attractive. BTW - I would prefer my PSA 3 beater over any Cobb 5/6.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/image.jpg1_zpsv6hy5br2.jpg

What a great card. It would have been a perfect card for me (and I suspect many other collectors), but around 20 years ago, when I had more and it went for less.

[mark evans]

I agree 100%. But, at the end of the day, this is pretty subjective stuff: cards, artwork, cars, women....and so on and so forth.

{This was intended as a response to MVSYNC. Sorry.}

[irv]

Not all PSA 2.5/3 Mantles are beater class. With the Mantle centering is key and maybe 10% have decent centering and eye appeal. Tons of 5's-7's with 75/25 centering which makes the card not very attractive. BTW - I would prefer my PSA 3 beater over any Cobb 5/6.


That is an unbelievable 3, imo. Is there something severely wrong with the back or something else we can't see in the scan?

When I first seen it, I was thinking 6-7, not 3. :confused:

[sterlingfox]

That is an unbelievable 3, imo. Is there something severely wrong with the back or something else we can't see in the scan?

When I first seen it, I was thinking 6-7, not 3. :confused:

While still extremely visually appealing, I see a faint amount of paper loss on the upper right corner.

[ullmandds]

While still extremely visually appealing, I see a faint amount of paper loss on the upper right corner.

and a faint crease horizontally through the ny in micks hat. nonetheless a gorgeous card!!!

[irv]

While still extremely visually appealing, I see a faint amount of paper loss on the upper right corner.

and a faint crease horizontally through the ny in micks hat. nonetheless a gorgeous card!!!

You guys likely have better eyes than me and more experience, so I'll have to take your word for it that those are the reasons as I can see neither of those.

Imo, this is a clear, buy the card not the slab situation.

[MVSNYC]

Here's the thing...if we're talking purely for an investment. It's all about supply and demand. Both cards have great demand, but there's a far larger audience for the Mantle, it crosses over outside of the Hobby...Yes there's less green cobbs, but he has a specific niche audience. And this is coming from a passionate T206 collector.

[ullmandds]

You guys likely have better eyes than me and more experience, so I'll have to take your word for it that those are the reasons as I can see neither of those.

Imo, this is a clear, buy the card not the slab situation.

and it appears creasing/wrinkling mid neck.

[KendallCat]

No paper loss on the corner, but there is a slight wrinkle going through the hat area - very good eyes there:) Got very lucky when I was offered the card about 1.5 years ago, and I would personally rather have a card with that flaw where most are trying to guess what the issue is versus a card that is tilted/80/20 centering, corner has been chewed off... without that crease the card is probably a 4.5/5 or possibly better and now a $100k card and out of my price range.

Back to the original subject at hand between Cobb and Mantle. Both were great players and in different respects. What I am curious about is why several people commented "once the baby boomers die off there will be no interest in Mantle since nobody will have seen him play." If that is the case there should be nobody around now that wants a Cobb, Wagner, Young, Walter Johnson... using that rationale.

Mantle is baseballs version of a legend like Paul Bunyan -how fast was he, how far could he hit it.... add to that he has the BEST World Series numbers and records and it only cements his legacy.

Now that we solved that issue we can argue which is his true rookie :D


http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/IMG_2086_zpssf67zvr6.jpg

[Republicaninmass]

.. without that crease the card is probably a 4.5/5 or possibly better and now a $100k card and out of my price range.]


Vcp Average sales for a 4.5 is 37k, and 5s are 60k...but I guess anything is possible

[Huysmans]

No paper loss on the corner, but there is a slight wrinkle going through the hat area - very good eyes there:) Got very lucky when I was offered the card about 1.5 years ago, and I would personally rather have a card with that flaw where most are trying to guess what the issue is versus a card that is tilted/80/20 centering, corner has been chewed off... without that crease the card is probably a 4.5/5 or possibly better and now a $100k card and out of my price range.

Back to the original subject at hand between Cobb and Mantle. Both were great players and in different respects. What I am curious about is why several people commented "once the baby boomers die off there will be no interest in Mantle since nobody will have seen him play." If that is the case there should be nobody around now that wants a Cobb, Wagner, Young, Walter Johnson... using that rationale.

Mantle is baseballs version of a legend like Paul Bunyan -how fast was he, how far could he hit it.... add to that he has the BEST World Series numbers and records and it only cements his legacy.

Now that we solved that issue we can argue which is his true rookie :D


http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/IMG_2086_zpssf67zvr6.jpg

Uhh no, you have the "rationale" backwards. There was NO organized hobby contemporary to all the Dead Ball Era players you listed, hence, from day one of the modern hobby, those players have been highy venerated REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT NO MODERN COLLECTORS SAW THEM PLAY. That is not the case with Mantle. So assuming it will be the same for The Mick as it has been for past legends is purely speculation, and NOTHING more.

[KendallCat]

Vcp Average sales for a 4.5 is 37k, and 5s are 60k...but I guess anything is possible

VCP shows that but I know of private sales for high end 4.5's and 5's and they are at least double those prices. I know of a 4.5 that has been offered close to $100k and a 5 over $100k - 100% legit sales.

As many folks here know most major sales are done privately and never see VCP. I have sold 4-5 Mantles recently and All were done privately all above the VCP high prices for PSA 8. VCP is a good barometer for prices, but most collectors know that a ton of great cards change hands before they are offered to the masses - collectors who really want a card make it known to sellers/dealers ahead of time and when the card comes up it is sold and for huge $$.

[ullmandds]

lots of "alternative facts" being slung around.

[rats60]

VCP shows that but I know of private sales for high end 4.5's and 5's and they are at least double those prices. I know of a 4.5 that has been offered close to $100k and a 5 over $100k - 100% legit sales.

As many folks here know most major sales are done privately and never see VCP. I have sold 4-5 Mantles recently and All were done privately all above the VCP high prices for PSA 8. VCP is a good barometer for prices, but most collectors know that a ton of great cards change hands before they are offered to the masses - collectors who really want a card make it known to sellers/dealers ahead of time and when the card comes up it is sold and for huge $$.

Then I need to talk to you. I have been trying to buy cards and have been running into a brick wall. They seem to want to go to auction houses rather than sell privately for fear of leaving dollars on the table.

[Touch'EmAll]

I feel some folks are putting words in my mouth.

My post posed the question, "What might happen as baby boomers pass?" Notice I said might. I also said, "He will always be top tier icon player, but might his pull subside?" Notice again I said might.

I never said Mantle's cards were going to drop in value. I never said Mantle's card would be a poor investment. I never said Mantle's popularity will decrease. Heck, they weren't actually statements, they were questions centered around the word, "might."

[CMIZ5290]

What words are being put in your mouth??

[KendallCat]

Reading through the thread again and disappointed at some of the attitudes expressed within. First and foremost this is a hobby for fun, and some are fortunate to have made a few $$ from it. The conversation was which card wiukr you rather have a green Cobb or a Mantle rookie which then turned into a "Mantle is overrated" and "where were his RBI's" diatribe along with "when the boomers die they will come crashing down in price."

If that happens the rest of the card market will fall with it - high tide raises all boats and low tide lowers them. Not to mention the standard being applied already shows the Mantle is a better card in this comparison. You are having a PSA 6 Cobb compete with a PSA 3 Mantle to make the argument - if you have to use a grade that is half of the Cobb to make it an even comparison what does that tell you right there.

At the end of the day Cobb, Ruth, Mantle... are all great players and have great cards. Don't know what turning this into an episode of the View is going to accomplish outside of making the thread rival a PWCC part 3 thread in terms of hits and pages in length.

[rats60]

Reading through the thread again and disappointed at some of the attitudes expressed within. First and foremost this is a hobby for fun, and some are fortunate to have made a few $$ from it. The conversation was which card wiukr you rather have a green Cobb or a Mantle rookie which then turned into a "Mantle is overrated" and "where were his RBI's" diatribe along with "when the boomers die they will come crashing down in price."

If that happens the rest of the card market will fall with it - high tide raises all boats and low tide lowers them. Not to mention the standard being applied already shows the Mantle is a better card in this comparison. You are having a PSA 6 Cobb compete with a PSA 3 Mantle to make the argument - if you have to use a grade that is half of the Cobb to make it an even comparison what does that tell you right there.

At the end of the day Cobb, Ruth, Mantle... are all great players and have great cards. Don't know what turning this into an episode of the View is going to accomplish outside of making the thread rival a PWCC part 3 thread in terms of hits and pages in length.

If 10 years ago, if the question was asked about the Sporting News Ruth or Gehrig Exhibit, the same argument would have applied. Mantle is worth more in the same grade. However, those cards have been better investments.

We have seen several top post war cards take big drops in price. Has that killed the market? The Mantle market is being driven by investors. What happens when they sell? There is a bubble in that market. 52 Mantles in the lower grades have also dropped recently. They will be the ones hurt most if the bubble bursts. The 52 Mantle will always be the most valuable post war card, but that doesn't mean there aren't better cards to invest in.

[orly57]

I think that maybe 52 mantle vs 1914/15 Cracker jack Cobb of equal grade would have been a better debate.

[Leon]

Actually your first premise is a bit off. It is a hobby for fun but the question was concerning investment..... the first sentences stated..

If you had to chose an investment card to hold for 5 to 10 years which card would you chose. Let us assume you have 20,000 dollars to spend and you spent it all on one card. The goal would obviously be to pick the card that has the least amount of chance to go down, and the highest up side for profit.


Reading through the thread again and disappointed at some of the attitudes expressed within. First and foremost this is a hobby for fun, and some are fortunate to have made a few $$ from it. The conversation was which card wiukr you rather have a green Cobb or a Mantle rookie which then turned into a "Mantle is overrated" and "where were his RBI's" diatribe along with "when the boomers die they will come crashing down in price."

If that happens the rest of the card market will fall with it - high tide raises all boats and low tide lowers them. Not to mention the standard being applied already shows the Mantle is a better card in this comparison. You are having a PSA 6 Cobb compete with a PSA 3 Mantle to make the argument - if you have to use a grade that is half of the Cobb to make it an even comparison what does that tell you right there.

At the end of the day Cobb, Ruth, Mantle... are all great players and have great cards. Don't know what turning this into an episode of the View is going to accomplish outside of making the thread rival a PWCC part 3 thread in terms of hits and pages in length.

[Neal]

but, at the end of the day...a 52 Mantle, is a 52 Mantle.

indeed

The 52 Topps Mantle is arguably the face card of the hobby

[Republicaninmass]

indeed

The 52 Topps Mantle is arguably the face card of the hobby


Very arguably, as when someone hears I enjoy the hobby, they ask if I've had a t206...Wagner. now its the Same series as the Cobb, but their second question is usually about a 52 mantle.



Over the last 10 years the Mantle has performed better at almost a rate of 2-1

I have skin in both games, I cant help but feel in the current market that the Mantle has really peaked, whereas the Cobb has room to grow.

[KendallCat]

Actually your first premise is a bit off. It is a hobby for fun but the question was concerning investment..... the first sentences stated..

If you had to chose an investment card to hold for 5 to 10 years which card would you chose. Let us assume you have 20,000 dollars to spend and you spent it all on one card. The goal would obviously be to pick the card that has the least amount of chance to go down, and the highest up side for profit.

Leon - I understand the premise perfectly and have addressed it as such. I have $$ invested in both Cobb and Mantle, and as most collectors will tell you, along with your typical everyday person who knows sports but maybe does not collect,
the Mantle card is iconic and the face of baseball cards.

As far as which one will elevate more in the future it is like looking at a pair of stocks where one is a blue chip that has had a huge run up(Apple) versus a young start up with less stability but potentially has a huge upside. Which one do you pick? In my opinion it is like choosing a date between a hot brunette supermodel or a hot blonde one. If it was up to some members of the message boards it would turn into "that one has a mole on her chin or her eyes are too close together." Most sane people would not complain at all and simply realize that at the end of the day they are dating a hot super model. Amazing what so many conversations on here turn into rather than enjoying the hobby - investment or no investment.

[orly57]

I own every standard issue mantle you can imagine in addition to others like Stahl Meyer, Topps Super, Dan Dee, etc. I do not own a '52. Not because I can't afford one, but rather, I just don't think the value is there. I waited too long to buy it. I think that there are way too many out there (10 plus on eBay at all times and minimum of 3 at every major auction). Maybe I am being short-sighted, but I don't want to pay 30k for a beautiful 3 like KendalCat's (although if I were ever to buy one, KendallCat's would be the one I would want) because I just can't see the day where a mantle 3 would ever sell for 80 or 90k. I think we have seen a huge bubble and it is currently at peak value. At least for a very long while. I agree that it is an iconic card and the face of our hobby (along with Wagner). I also get its crossover appeal with non-collectors. I think it is a safe investment, but I don't see the lower grades ever getting a ton higher. As for high grades, will the 8.5 that sold for a million ever sell for 2 million? I don't see it.
I am particularly interested in this string because I am selling my mantle collection in order to pursue rarer issues in the pre-war world. Not for money, but because my collecting interests have changed. I prefer to buy a Rose Cobb over a Mantle 3 for the same price. Of course, the supply is lower, but so is the demand, so it doesn't necessarily mean it is a BETTER investment. It is just my preference. I would much rather buy Probstein's 1914 CJCobb over a Mantle 3 ANY DAY. I like the card better, it is far more rare, and they are comperable in price. I also happen to think it has more long-term growth potential. Most of you know precisely the card I am referring to because when a CJ Cobb goes on eBay, it is a big deal, unlike the 52 mantle.
Finally, I read some guys mentioned Ruth as the best name in the hobby. I disagree. Ruth is larger than life, but his cards leave a lot to be desired. His cards from the 20's are boring, small, black and white caramel cards, strip cards, or promotional giveaways. I can't think of any really nice Ruth cards from the 20's, which was the prime of his career. It wasn't until the end of his career when nice looking Goudeys came out, but those are not particularly rare ether. I just don't find Ruth's cards to be attractive enough to get the value a player of his stature deserves. In contrast, Cobb's early cards are gorgeous. Ruth has no cards that compare in beauty to a T206, E95, t227, T3, Cracker Jack, or other spectacular Cobb cards. They lack the color and beauty of the 1907-1915 Cobb releases. Just my opinion. I have plenty of Ruth cards, but I don't enjoy them nearly as much as my Cobbs.

[pokerplyr80]

I have solar panels that are paid for. Bring me a nice psa 6 green cobb or psa 3 52 mantle and they're all yours.

My personal preference on this one is for the Mantle but I wouldn't be surprised if both did well long term.

[botn]

I own every standard issue mantle you can imagine in addition to others like Stahl Meyer, Topps Super, Dan Dee, etc. I do not own a '52. Not because I can't afford one, but rather, I just don't think the value is there. I waited too long to buy it. I think that there are way too many out there (10 plus on eBay at all times and minimum of 3 at every major auction). Maybe I am being short-sighted, but I don't want to pay 30k for a beautiful 3 like KendalCat's (although if I were ever to buy one, KendallCat's would be the one I would want) because I just can't see the day where a mantle 3 would ever sell for 80 or 90k. I think we have seen a huge bubble and it is currently at peak value. At least for a very long while. I agree that it is an iconic card and the face of our hobby (along with Wagner). I also get its crossover appeal with non-collectors. I think it is a safe investment, but I don't see the lower grades ever getting a ton higher. As for high grades, will the 8.5 that sold for a million ever sell for 2 million? I don't see it.
I am particularly interested in this string because I am selling my mantle collection in order to pursue rarer issues in the pre-war world. Not for money, but because my collecting interests have changed. I prefer to buy a Rose Cobb over a Mantle 3 for the same price. Of course, the supply is lower, but so is the demand, so it doesn't necessarily mean it is a BETTER investment. It is just my preference. I would much rather buy Probstein's 1914 CJCobb over a Mantle 3 ANY DAY. I like the card better, it is far more rare, and they are comperable in price. I also happen to think it has more long-term growth potential. Most of you know precisely the card I am referring to because when a CJ Cobb goes on eBay, it is a big deal, unlike the 52 mantle.


I do not own a 52T Mantle either. At some point it might be nice to have one because it is an iconic card but I agree completely with you about the long term outlook. Demand is high for them but clearly it has cooled off and that can be seen frequently for prices for the 7s and lower. I see prices on those examples pulling back more as time passes. Who knows what the 8s or higher will do. That is a more thinly traded market but if prices moved up I would not be shocked.

[mrvster]

cobb is great.....but , the 52 topps is an "iconic" card......top 3 in the hobby...

it far exceeds even collectors.....non collectors even "heard" of it.....more cards exist of the mantle, but demand is/will be greater..larger market and demand..not many non collectors even "know" what a green cobb looks like...

t206 wagner, 52 mantle 33 goudey ruths are "most recognizable" with collectors and non collectors...

a 52 mantle is a 52 mantle! and its not even his true rookie, but it doen't matter...

I am a 206 nut, but 206 green cobb pales in comparison to a '52 mantle:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

While i am fortunate enough to own a decent mantle i agree it is way overrated compared to some prewar. At equal vallue like orlando would take the cj cobb every time.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Do people that do not collect baseball cards matter in the equation about pricing of a particular card. They have no impact on supply, or on the demand.

I recognize a lot of cards, but I do not buy them.

To me, regardless if a 20 year old video gaming college kid or a 70 year old retired lady know what a 52 mantle or a cobb looks like, how does that play into the pricing.

[skelly]

There's just something more to the Mantle, its the key card for topps first set, its Postwar America, etc... For better or worse, the Cobb now comes from a time period that the Average American really knows little about... Granted the average American isn't in the market for either of these two cards.

[orly57]

Do people that do not collect baseball cards matter in the equation about pricing of a particular card. They have no impact on supply, or on the demand.

I recognize a lot of cards, but I do not buy them.

To me, regardless if a 20 year old video gaming college kid or a 70 year old retired lady know what a 52 mantle or a cobb looks like, how does that play into the pricing.

Phillip, it does matter. The demand for '52 Mantles isn't all coming from collectors. In fact, I would venture that a large percentage of 52 mantles are bought by people who aren't serious collectors. Guys buy that card as a status symbol. Actors,hedge-fund managers, bigwigs, they buy the card because it is perceived by non-collectors as the card to own. Nearly every collector on this thread has either said they would prefer the green Cobb or that it is a close call. Real collectors respect and want both pretty equally. So why isn't the demand nearly as high on the green Cobb? I think it is in large part due to non-collectors or fringe collectors.
As I mentioned earlier, I would have liked to have seen the question posed as a '52 mantle vs an equally priced Cracker Jack Cobb. I think the majority of serious collectors jump all over the CJ.

[orly57]

Do people that do not collect baseball cards matter in the equation about pricing of a particular card. They have no impact on supply, or on the demand.

I recognize a lot of cards, but I do not buy them.

To me, regardless if a 20 year old video gaming college kid or a 70 year old retired lady know what a 52 mantle or a cobb looks like, how does that play into the pricing.



Tried deleting the double post, but can't figure out how too. Sorry

[PhillipAbbott79]

Phillip, it does matter. The demand for '52 Mantles isn't all coming from collectors. In fact, I would venture that a large percentage of 52 mantles are bought by people who aren't serious collectors. Guys buy that card as a status symbol. Actors,hedge-fund managers, bigwigs, they buy the card because it is perceived by non-collectors as the card to own. Nearly every collector on this thread has either said they would prefer the green Cobb or that it is a close call. Real collectors respect and want both pretty equally. So why isn't the demand nearly as high on the green Cobb? I think it is in large part due to non-collectors or fringe collectors.
As I mentioned earlier, I would have liked to have seen the question posed as a '52 mantle vs an equally priced Cracker Jack Cobb. I think the majority of serious collectors jump all over the CJ.

Yes. I am aware of this. I would argue that if you do buy a card, you are a collector, even if you only have that 1 card. You cross from the person that doesn't care to one who has influenced the market and are a part of it in some way.

What I read here, is how iconic it is and how others that will never buy one know what it is not what the investor class is. If you are investing 20k to 500k on a baseball card, are you not going to do any homework to find out what other cards may be more investible before purchasing? Perhaps if you bought one, you may also buy the other. To assume that no one who buys the 52 Topps mantle does not know about a green Cobb is presumptuous. Mantle is a legendary Yankee. The Yankees have a huge following. There are a lot of people who also know who Ty Cobb is. Detroit baseball goes way back also.

[orly57]

"To assume that no one who buys the 52 Topps mantle does not know about a green Cobb is Presumptuous."

Well, it's a good thing I didn't say that. You are speaking in absolutes (and double-negatives). I wasn't not ;).

[ullmandds]

I've always preferred more unusual cards...while I do covet a 52 topps mantle...i will likely never own one! I'll stick to my ruths...and my cobbs...and my 51 bowman mantle true rookie...not doubleprinted and overvalued!

[skelly]

In 2017, there is also something to be said for the fact that although impossible to know the details without having lived in the era, Cobb does have the reputation of not exactly being a "tolerant" individual. Mantle was flawed, but in a way that some people can better relate to. I guess what I'm saying is that Mantle was a star on a level that others couldn't reach. He did, however, have flaws that were quite in line with many ordinary citizens.

[KendallCat]

Would love to find a nice CJ Cobb, but talk about a tough card to find. Missed on one about 5 years ago that was perfect. Was a PSA 2 due to paper loss on the back, but the front was a PSA 8/8.5. Was not into collecting back then, but still considered buying it. Wish I would have done so now. Beautiful card.

[KendallCat]

This is the one. Would love to own it. Beautiful card.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/IMG_1376_zps73twxe68.jpeg

[brian1961]

KendallCat---

The missed opportunity on that CJ Ty Cobb most assuredly fits "the one that got away" category. It's a quintessential "buy the card, not the holder" example. Wow, it presents so beautifully.

Whatever anyone wishes to say about the massive availability on the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, as they have said ever since around 1981, when it was discovered Mick, Jackie Robinson, and Bobby Thomson were double-printed on the Topps sheets, somehow the message still translates in the minds of collectors to:

I don't care if it's not his true rookie; big deal.

I don't care if it's double-printed, and there's twice as many as all the other seventh series cards.

All I know is that it's one of the most beautiful Mickey Mantle cards I ever laid eyes on. I want it. I WANT IT. I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

Just my nickel-pack's worth.;)

---Brian Powell

[MVSNYC]

Re: Mantle's 51 Bowman vs. 52 Topps...I just added up their PSA & SGC pops...If you consider just how in demand the 52 example is, I think that's not so many. And regarding the debate of whether his 52 is a rookie card or not, it's rather irrelevant, IMO, it's his debut card in Topps landmark set. It's iconic and transcends the hobby. FWIW, I'll always be a HUGE T206 fan, and a Cobb fan though.


2303 Total 51 Bowman Mantes (1783 PSA & 520 SGC)

1857 Total 52 Topps Mantles (1425 PSA & 432 SGC)

[PhillipAbbott79]

The PWCC green Cobb 4 is at 7100 and it has a major crease in the bottom left corner. This card price is EXPLODING. 3 years ago you could get a PSA 4 for 3,000. Now you are paying 7 to 8 thousand. That is a great return. Observe the 707 Green Cobb is down.

Ahead of that card closing, I picked up another PSA 4 to hold onto.

I would ask what a 52 mantle went for 3 years ago? Has it had the same returns? I really am pretty ignorant here. I do not collect them. This entire thread came from a debate with another collector and we both thought it was worthy of posting to see what others though.

[orly57]

I can only post on n54 in double-pics. Not sure why. This is as far back as vcp goes on psa 3 mantles. So now that the mid-2006 insanity has passed, the card has doubled in three years.

[sniffy5]

Showcasing here, but here are mine together..,

[MattyC]

+1, Sniffy.

Best move is go for what you love to own and hold every day.

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/mattianc/mickey-mantle/45394/1952-topps-mantle

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/mattianc/other-favorites/46542/1914-cracker-jack-cobb

[sniffy5]

Awesome cards!!

[Fred]

First off, I hate using the word "investment" and associating it with my hobby.

As an investment I'd take the Mantle because for some reason or other there's a buzz about the 52T Mantle. Personally, I'd be much more happy with the Cobb card.

Anybody have a total pop on both of the cards in the SGC and PSA registry's? Just curious.

[MVSNYC]

Fred- see post #92 for Mantle's total pop. I know Green Cobb is much less, but then the debate becomes supply & demand.

[PhillipAbbott79]

First off, I hate using the word "investment" and associating it with my hobby.

As an investment I'd take the Mantle because for some reason or other there's a buzz about the 52T Mantle. Personally, I'd be much more happy with the Cobb card.

Anybody have a total pop on both of the cards in the SGC and PSA registry's? Just curious.

I don't make enough to buy the cards I want unless I eventually plan on parting with some of them. Do I like that, no. It unfortunately is called "reality". At one point I had more money into my baseball cards than the entire cost I paid for my house. The balances are now tipped the other way, but I sit and look at them and realize cold hard cash is a retirement plan and my baseball cards are a partial gamble, no matter how much I like them.

I try to strike a balance between them and move my interests to make sure I don't lose my ass while having fun.