Those M114's - When Are We Going To Talk About Them?

[akleinb611]

Hello Everyone. I haven't posted often on this site, and it seems that when I do, it has something to do with the M114 Baseball Magazine Premium set. So I've decided to jump into the deep end and invite anyone and everyone who's interested to contribute something.

For those who aren't familiar, M114 (and it's predecessor M113) covers a very large universe of large premiums, mini-posters really, issued by the legendary Baseball Magazine from 1912 to 1957. These are brown-tinted posed photos on thin, semi-glossy paper, measuring 9 1/2 x 12 1/2 for the most part. I'm sure everyone has spotted a few at shows, here and there, but few have had the nerve to start collecting them seriously, given how little is generally known about this issue.

Over the course of several decades, I've gotten hold of hundreds of these photos, and by default I seem to have become the reigning expert. :eek: The only other collector on this board who is equally obsessed by the set is Doug Goodman, whom I hope will contribute to this discussion. About ten years ago, I wrote an article about the set for SCD that, to my surprise, seems to have become the go-to reference on the set. Here it is:

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/m114/

So, what I would like to do is to invite anyone who likes this set or who knows anything about it to chime in. Tell us what you know about the relative scarcity levels of different years, oddball facts about the players included in the set, and your sense of what the current market is. I've always felt that this is a wonderful, sadly-neglected issue, and I would like to encourage as much interest in it as I can!

Alan Kleinberger

[jbsports33]

I have always been interested in the set myself and the variety is endless. Over the years - at least 15+ we have been selling these and the last few years they have been getting harder to find - mostly the early issues. 1920s and 1930s for the most part can be found more often. There have been a few times that I bought large collections of the magazines, singles and the large early versions. Mr Mint and Steve V bought many from us and paid good prices too! Many collectors are not aware of the great selection of players and HOF players. I wish we had some of them back, because they always got the attention of people at our tables during the big shows. Sometimes I just read on this site, but these are very underrated and had say a bit about them - great pre-war baseball items!

Jimmy

[BruceinGa]

I have ten or fifteen of the player posters three or four of which have been framed by me and plan on framing several more "when I get time".
I own most common Ruth, the close up of his face.
Wish I knew more about them, value, reprints, etc.

[rhettyeakley]

Really underappreciated and undervalued items. I think a lot has to do with the awkward size and non-uniform (changed over the years) size of the pieces. They are too big to fit in a normal binder which makes storing them problematic to me.

I have collected them somewhat passively over the years and have probably 200+ of them currently. I really like the early ones and quickly start losing interest in them after the 1930's. I think a visual guide that helps date certain superstars (that had multiple poses issued) would really help.

-Rhett

[doug.goodman]

Boy, did I get excited when I saw this thread!

Thank you Alan, I will admit to a very slight obsession, that happens when trying to "finish" a set which is harder to complete than the t206 set.

Yep, you read that right, "harder to complete than the t206 set".

I will certainly be posting more of my thoughts in the upcoming days, but I'll start with Rhett's storage concern:

I keep both my m114s and my m113s (and other odd sized things like Blum's Bulletins, Alerta premiums, Police Gazette supplements, etc) in Itoya art profolios They have proven themselves to be great ways to store just about everything for me over the years. I even keep my cards in them (in the 8 and 9 count sheets). They take up less space than binders, and stop the potential curving of the cards when the pages sag inside a binder.

http://www.itoya.com/pht/Art_profolio_P.htm

Problem solved. You're welcome.

Insert smiley face here,
Doug


PS - here is 1 of my 875 different m113 / m114 issues. This one is a lot harder to find than you might guess.

[BruceinGa]

DG, thanks for the tip and the link, I'll check it out.
I also like the earlier ones.:D

[uniship]

I love the m113s and m114s as well - totally underappreciated and feel like little works of art.

[Harford20]

Alan,
Thanks for the thread, and yes, your article is the GO-TO knowledge (I use it frequently). I have about 15 different M113 and about 40 different M114 in my collection, mostly HoF players. I would reiterate two comments from Alan's work that are really worse than he states:

First, as noted in Alan's article and with Doug's presentation of the Aaron, those post-1953 M114 are far tougher than any others. The Aaron I have (just as the one Doug posted) took me >5 YEARS to find, and that is searching auctions and eBay on a minimum of 2-3x/week basis. I really wonder what the actual print run of these photos were.

Second, as an avid Ted Williams, I have almost been "hoarding" both the 1939 and 1949 versions of Ted, with about 10 of the 1939 and 8 of the 1949. Also what I note here is that the "Washington D.C." address of the 1950 and beyond M114s are also much rarer than I expected. As I have 2 of the "1949 versions" of Ted with the Washington D.C. address, I presume that these were actually done in the early 1950's, so I have always wondered how much the dates are TRUE, or are many of the M114s like the corresponding Exhibits, and have a "range" of actual printing dates?

Just a few points.

Dave

[BruceinGa]

:eek:
I keep both my m114s and my m113s (and other odd sized things like Blum's Bulletins, Alerta premiums, Police Gazette supplements, etc) in Itoya art profolios They have proven themselves to be great ways to store just about everything for me over the years. I even keep my cards in them (in the 8 and 9 count sheets). They take up less space than binders, and stop the potential curving of the cards when the pages sag inside a binder.

http://www.itoya.com/pht/Art_profolio_P.htm

Problem solved. You're welcome.

Insert smiley face here,
Doug


Thanks for the tip.
I have a question, why do sellers of these on eBay have so many neutral and negative feedbacks?

[akleinb611]

Having slept in today (I live on Long Island and we've been hit with a middling-sized blizzard), this is my first chance to see how the seed I planted last night has grown. Not bad. I'm gratified to see that people have found something in this subject that they like as much as I do.

As expected Doug has joined the discussion, and I can second his recommendation of the Itoya art portfolios he's mentioned. The 11x14 size is perfect for M114's, and my collection now resides in a series of these binders. My advice - find a major art supply retailer, pinpoint their price for the binders - and wait for a sale!

Finally, the person who noted that the second Ted Williams poster carries a Washington DC copyright line brings up an interesting issue. The dating of these pieces is generally taken from the checklist available in the SCD Standard Catalogue, which is a good checklist but not a great checklist. There are lots of missing posters, mostly variant poses of players. The best way to date an "orphan" pose is to match it up stylistically with other posters. Most pre-1940 pieces are clearly the work of Charles Conlan, and feature either a dugout background or a dark, one-color backdrop. Fully body poses of batters with their bat raised high over their head seem to date from the mid-1920's.

And then there's the possibility of reissues. Baseball Magazine didn't move to Washington DC until about 1955; if a poster that's dated earlier is labeled Washington rather than New York, that means that what you have is a caption variation. These are more frequent than you think. There are posters issued in the Thirties, for example, that sometimes carry a copyright notation of "New York," and sometimes the same pose can be found with "N.Y." That's too much for me; check with Doug Goodman, the only person dedicated enough (or crazy enough) to collect the caption variations as well!

A final point has to do with size. Many of the 1957-era, Washington DC posters are found in the 8 12x11 size. I don't believe these were trimmed by the original owners - the cutting seems too professional. I think that in their last year of operation, BB Magazine was contemplating a format change for the posters, and may even have recut some of the older ones from the early Fifties to a smaller size, to see if that would generate more interest.

Any thoughts?

Alan

[h2oya311]

Alan - According to your article, would the following be from 1954+ and be pretty rare? I had always assumed it was from 1941 (I believe the image is), but it has the Washington address on it:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1941%20Rizzuto.JPG

Here are a few of my other HOFers (presumably rookie images/issues for each):
http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1938%20Gordon%20-%20M114.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1924%20Cuyler.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/233%20-%20Copy.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1943%20Musial_1.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1943%20Wynn%20-%20EX-NMand.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1945%20Schoendienst.jpg

[T206Jim]

M113's frame up quite nicely.

260971

[doug.goodman]

Finally, the person who noted that the second Ted Williams poster...

And then there's the possibility of reissues... check with Doug Goodman, the only person dedicated enough (or crazy enough) to collect the caption variations as well!


Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I (with Alan's help) call the one with the stadium background pose #2, and the one on the black background pose #1. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...

[doug.goodman]

So, I just posted the two Ted Williams poses, here are the 5 print variations of Pose #2. The DC difference is obvious, but the other 4 are more subtle. I need to learn how to use photoshop so that I can put those 4 in one picture and note the differences. They are subtle, but they are there. Notice the placement of the text versus the designs in the grass and the edges of the picture. Different printings, in my opinion.

[doug.goodman]

And here the 2 print variations of Pose #1. Way more obvious.

[doug.goodman]

Here are a few of my other HOFers (presumably rookie images/issues for each):


Hi Derek - I like that Cuyler, mine is pretty beat up.

Your post brings up an issue that Alan touched on when he said "SCD Standard Catalogue, which is a good checklist but not a great checklist"

Joe Gordon is listed in SCD as having two posters, one in 1938 (presumably with the Yankees) the other in 1947 (presumably with the Indians), but here is a second Yankees pose.

Also, I don't know of a second pose from Burleigh Grimes, but I believe this printing is earlier than the one you posted (although I could be wrong).

[h2oya311]

Very cool! I'm diggin' this thread as I've learned at least four new things from it!!

Doug - we'll have to chat at some point! Perhaps I have something that you or Alan need...I have several M114s and three M113s...none of which have a place in my collection (except the rookies). Maybe there's a gem in there somewhere (in your eyes).

Oh, and Jim - love your framed M113! That's a Beauty!

[Harford20]

Doug,
Thanks. As mentioned above, I have been hoarding the Ted Williams M114s (a total of 15-18 between the 2 poses), but have missed the subtle variations. I also only know of these two poses, but always on the lookout for others. I will review all my Ted's and see which variations I have; I would be interested in an order of rarity of the variations if enough "sample power" could be found for a demoninator.

Based on my limited research, I have "mostly" confirmed that the original dates listed in the SCD (your pose #2 corresponds with a 1939 actual photo and release of M114, and your pose #1 corresponds with a "late" 1940's photo and release of the first M114 in 1949) are accurate and still have been using these "pose release dates" to classify them; I will now add variations and see with other player M114 of certain release years that may have a similar type-set or word placement/length of wording to determine the YEAR OF RELEASE of these other Ted variations.

(a little OCD with my Ted collection I realize).

Dave

[BruceinGa]

Here are mine that I framed.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/BruceinGa/Baseball%20cards/20170210_092427_zpsunmaqpsm.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/BruceinGa/Baseball%20cards/20170210_092443_zpsybevceeu.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/BruceinGa/Baseball%20cards/20170210_092456_zpsqszlcvyj.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/BruceinGa/Baseball%20cards/20170210_092503_zpslxodp7zy.jpg

[bgar3]

Thank you for the informative article from scd
I only have one M114, Ashburn, which I have seen referenced as 1948. I am not a rookie collector, just Ashburn, but the 1948 date would make it a rookie. Is that date correct?
Also, I have another Ashburn premium that is from Baseball Monthly. Is it totally separate from the M114 or a variation? Thank you
Poor images are attached and I realize the M114 is in poor condition.

[doug.goodman]

Thank you for the informative article from scd
I only have one M114, Ashburn, which I have seen referenced as 1948. I am not a rookie collector, just Ashburn, but the 1948 date would make it a rookie. Is that date correct?
Also, I have another Ashburn premium that is from Baseball Monthly. Is it totally separate from the M114 or a variation? Thank you
Poor images are attached and I realize the M114 is in poor condition.

Welcome to the conversation.

Baseball Monthly supplements are cataloged as m118. They are a separate supplement, with 88 players listed in the catalog, but there were actually 89 players issued (Bob Feller isn't listed in the catalog). At the moment, I am still looking for Rocky Colavito, Elston Howard, and Roger Maris to complete my set.

There are two variations of the Ashburn, one with New York noted on both sides of the text, and the other with New York only noted on the left side.

Also, you note that your m114 of Ashburn is in poor condition, but sometimes the only way to find them is in poor condition. I'm of the opinion that having one in poor condition is better than not having one. Other portions of the hobby have a similar thought process, like there is that guy in Arizona who bought that really famous / expensive card even though it is trimmed and misgraded.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Here are mine that I framed.

Those look great, Bruce.

[bgar3]

Thank you for the information Doug. I agree that having one in bad condition is better than none at all. I appreciate the information on both Ashburns.

[Shoebox]

Interesting information guys. I really like a lot of the oversized premiums and supplements like Butterfingers, R311, and Sporting New M101-2 but have previously not paid much attention to these. You've piqued my interest though and will have to make a point of acquiring one and trying them on so to speak.

[doug.goodman]

Here is one of the 11 large sized posters that were issued in 1957. These are still considered to be m114s (right Alan?) but are 17.5 inches wide by 20 inches tall.

Does anybody else have any of these?

Doug

[akleinb611]

Logically, I would have given the supersized 1957 posters a separate number (M114-2) maybe?

But I'm not in charge of our little corner of the planet. I just live here.

By the way, Doug, I can state categorically that I have NEVER seen that Joe Gordon pose you posted earlier. I just know the familiar NY and Cleveland poses. Given the fact that Gordon won the MVP in 1942, late 1942 or early 1943 would seem a strong possibility for this issue - perhaps the magazine felt that the MVP award winner deserved a new pose that they could market as a brand new poster? If that's the case, it's interesting that so few have (apparently) survived. The Cleveland poster wouldn't have been issued until 1947 or 1948.

[doug.goodman]

Logically, I would have given the supersized 1957 posters a separate number (M114-2) maybe?

But I'm not in charge of our little corner of the planet. I just live here.

By the way, Doug, I can state categorically that I have NEVER seen that Joe Gordon pose you posted earlier. I just know the familiar NY and Cleveland poses. Given the fact that Gordon won the MVP in 1942, late 1942 or early 1943 would seem a strong possibility for this issue - perhaps the magazine felt that the MVP award winner deserved a new pose that they could market as a brand new poster? If that's the case, it's interesting that so few have (apparently) survived. The Cleveland poster wouldn't have been issued until 1947 or 1948.

I agree on the separate number, but also just live here.

Here is the Indians Gordon, just so we can see them "all".

Doug

[doug.goodman]

For those of you who care to see them, here are scans of the majority of my supplements.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoodman/sets/72157612023351081/

I've been a bit lazy and haven't posted any scans in almost 3 years, so there are some missing.



Now that I have shown you mine, please show me yours. Here are the ones I would like to see:

M114
Arroyo, Luis - Bailey, Ed - Banks, Ernie - Boyer, Ken - Brewer, Tony - Buhl, Bob - Conley, Gene - Crandell, Del - Fletcher, Art - Fox, Nellie - Friend, Bob - Kaline, Al - Keegan, Bob - Kucks, Johnny - Labine, Clem - Law, Vern - Lawrence, Brooks - Lindstrom, Fred - Maxwell, Charlie - McCormick, Mike - Medwick, Ducky - Moore, Ray - Naragon, Hal - Pendleton, Jim - Piersall, Jimmy - Portocarrero, Arnie - Repulski, Rip - Robinson, Frank - Rush, Bob - Score, Herb - Smith, Earl - Stephens, Gene - Temple, Johnny - Wilson, Jim


M113
Alexander, Grover - Archer, Jimmy - Chance, Frank (no #, Cubs) - Cheney, Larry - Cicotte, Ed - Connolly, Joe - Schmidt, Charles - Schulte, Wildfire - Scott, James - Shawkey, Bob - Sheckard, Jimmy


M113 Teams
1913 Athletics Team - 1915 Athletics Team - 1913 Braves Team - 1914 Braves Team - 1915 Cardinals Team - 1914 Cubs Team - 1912 Giants Team - 1914 Indians Team - 1914 Senators Team - 1914 Tigers Team - 1914 Whales Team (Chicago) - 1914 Yankees Team


1957 Large
House, Frank - Kaline, Al


DC
Campanella, Roy - Cox, Billy - Hamner, Granny - Kell, George - Labine, Clem - Mays, Willie - Reese, Pee Wee - Roberts, Robin - Sauer, Hank

[BruceinGa]

Wow, what a collection!

[Boomer]

Great thread. Doug-beautiful collection

[Pat R]

Doug and Alan, I have no knowledge on these at all so I could be foolish
to even mention this. How was the text done on these? Besides the location
of the text on the scans that Doug posted it looks like the spacing is different. Could there be a difference in the spacing of the text based on
when they were printed and possibly they could be separated (grouped) by the measurements
of the spacing of the text.
261222

[jim]

the 1914 Cubs? ignore tree branch reflections in scan, is really quite nice.
261228

[doug.goodman]

Doug and Alan, I have no knowledge on these at all so I could be foolish
to even mention this. How was the text done on these? Besides the location
of the text on the scans that Doug posted it looks like the spacing is different. Could there be a difference in the spacing of the text based on
when they were printed and possibly they could be separated (grouped) by the measurements
of the spacing of the text.


Hi Pat - You may be foolish, but that would mean that I am, too. I don't know the answer to your question, but I consider the various spacing and font differences to be different printings of the supplements, and hence "variations".
Doug

[doug.goodman]

the 1914 Cubs? ignore tree branch reflections in scan, is really quite nice.

Hi Jim!

That is a fantastic supplement, thanx for posting.

You were one of the people I was thinking of you when I posted that list, I know you have others (like the Gehrig fielding pose), and I look forward to the day when you decide that baseball supplements are stupid and you want to get rid of yours.

Insert smiley face here.
Doug

[jim]

hi Doug, there are only a few of us BBM zealouts out there, so your intuition is spot on. will get more out here in the coming days.
I am skeptical that all of the team M113 premiums exist though, like the Chic Feds and St Louis NL team. Not sure they were important to the locals; Cards were lousy back then and the Feds were not as loved as the Cubs were. Would love to be wrong about that with those teams I might add.
jim

[doug.goodman]

hi Doug, there are only a few of us BBM zealouts out there, so your intuition is spot on. will get more out here in the coming days.
I am skeptical that all of the team M113 premiums exist though, like the Chic Feds and St Louis NL team. Not sure they were important to the locals; Cards were lousy back then and the Feds were not as loved as the Cubs were. Would love to be wrong about that with those teams I might add.
jim

From one zealot to another, I agree with you on both what probably doesn't exist and what I hope does exist.

Also, I think that sometimes, especially with teams, some of them might be the same. As an example, I have the 1914 Indians team on my list, and you once sent me a scan of the 1915 Indians team, I'm betting that we are talking about the same one.

Doug

[BruceinGa]

the 1914 cubs? Ignore tree branch reflections in scan, is really quite nice.
261228

nice!

[jim]

Two from your wish to see list plus the Gehrig fielding copy; enjoy all.
261353

261354

261355

[doug.goodman]

Two from your wish to see list plus the Gehrig fielding copy; enjoy all.


Fantastic X 3!

Thank you for those Jim.

[paul]

I've always liked the M114s too. But for some players -- like Ruth and Gehrig -- who were issued on an ongoing basis long after they retired -- I've never known how to figure out if the premium was issued during the player's career. Is there a way to figure this out? Are there specific poses that were post-career only? Is there a list of these poses somewhere for people like me who would want to stay away from them? Thanks.

[doug.goodman]

I've always liked the M114s too. But for some players -- like Ruth and Gehrig -- who were issued on an ongoing basis long after they retired -- I've never known how to figure out if the premium was issued during the player's career. Is there a way to figure this out? Are there specific poses that were post-career only? Is there a list of these poses somewhere for people like me who would want to stay away from them? Thanks.

Hi Paul, welcome to the conversation,

I think the short answer is "no", although Alan or Jim may have other thoughts.

With Babe Ruth, I suppose that his two Red Sox poses were probably issued during his playing days, and maybe both single bat Yankee poses, too, at least in their initial printings. But, I'm not sure that there is any way to confirm those suspicions.

For Lou Gehrig, I think it's possible that any of his poses were first printed during his career (especially the fielding pose posted by Jim), but determining which print variations were, that's harder to confirm.

Doug

[kdixon]

Zach Wheat.

[doug.goodman]

Zach Wheat.

Great one Kenny, thanx.

Let me know if he stops pulling his weight around your house and you decide to tell him he needs to find a new place to live.

Doug

[BruceinGa]

Zach Wheat.

Could be Buck Wheat :rolleyes:

[kdixon]

Thanks Doug. Bruce could be Buck as I have letters he signed as Buck.

[BruceinGa]

Thanks Doug. Bruce could be Buck as I have letters he signed as Buck.

Lol, thanks for showing my ignorance.:rolleyes:

[jim]

Doug, did you have a copy of "the sultan of swat" Ruth?

[doug.goodman]

Doug, did you have a copy of "the sultan of swat" Ruth?

Do you mean "King of Swat"?

Nope, but here is the scan of yours...

[doug.goodman]

As this thread dies from lack of interest, since there are only a few of us who care about these supplements, let me add a couple of my favorites, that are pretty tough to find...

[h2oya311]

As this thread dies from lack of interest, since there are only a few of us who care about these supplements, let me add a couple of my favorites, that are pretty tough to find...

That first Mantle is incredible as he is in uniform #6 dating the image to 1951! Awesome! I believe that image is shared with an incredibly rare Japanese card of Mantle from 1953 (Yamakatsu). I would love to find this M114 for my collection now that I know about it! Thanks for sharing!

[doug.goodman]

That first Mantle is incredible as he is in uniform #6 dating the image to 1951! Awesome! I believe that image is shared with an incredibly rare Japanese card of Mantle from 1953 (Yamakatsu). I would love to find this M114 for my collection now that I know about it! Thanks for sharing!

And then they spell his name wrong on the later one...

[h2oya311]

Does anyone have a Mays?? I'd love to see one!

[doug.goodman]

Does anyone have a Mays?? I'd love to see one!

Ask and ye shall receive...

[h2oya311]

Thanks Doug! I expected him to look "younger" in the image since it was purportedly available beginning in 1951.

I'll have to see if there are others I haven't ever seen before. Great stuff!!

[dstudeba]

Sorry I am a little slow to the party. Here is the printing plate for that Mantle error.

http://baseballcardresource.com/BaseballCardResource/img/BBMag/BBMag_MantleRuth_Sm.JPG

[doug.goodman]

Sorry I am a little slow to the party. Here is the printing plate for that Mantle error.


Nice.

Did you get that from Henry Yee?

Doug



PS - technically, it would be an uncorrected error (assuming there is no correction lurking out there...)

[dstudeba]

No, did Yee have some? I got it from the collection of a janitor in their Washington D.C. office.

[doug.goodman]

No, did Yee have some? I got it from the collection of a janitor in their Washington D.C. office.

Oh, wow.

Yee auctioned some a couple years ago, I though one was that Mantle.

What other amazing items did the janitor have?

[dstudeba]

I haven't gone through it recently. I have quite a few printing plates, some layout pages for the magazine, advertising items, M114s, and negatives off the top of my head.

http://baseballcardresource.com/BaseballCardResource/img/BBMag/BBMag_RuthMantle_Sm.JPG

[doug.goodman]

I haven't gone through it recently. I have quite a few printing plates, some layout pages for the magazine, advertising items, M114s, and negatives off the top of my head.


Very cool, but for me it's all about the m114s, especially if they are ones we haven't seen, yet.

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

I don't have any M114s, but I do have some M113s

[doug.goodman]

I don't have any M114s, but I do have some M113s

Those are great Dan, thanx for posting.

Here is a different Cobb m113

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

Those are great Dan, thanx for posting.

Here is a different Cobb m113

Doug

Whoa! Never seen that one. Your collection of these posters is incredible!

[jim]

hi Doug, here is the NYY from your wish list. someday i will learn how to take better pictures.

262016

[doug.goodman]

hi Doug, here is the NYY from your wish list. someday i will learn how to take better pictures.


THAT is a nice one!

[BruceinGa]

All very nice!!

[doug.goodman]

This one is beat up, but still nice...

[Shoebox]

This one is beat up, but still nice...

Condition aside that is awesome!:eek:

[doug.goodman]

Condition aside that is awesome!:eek:

Thanx, that one might be my favorite.

[uniship]

anybody here have any signed examples to share?

[doug.goodman]

anybody here have any signed examples to share?

Nope, not me.

[BruceinGa]

Nor I.
I just received my Itoya Art Profolio and just finished loading it. Now for the index. I'll probably arrange them in chronological order. Looks as if I have the cart before the horse.:rolleyes:

[akleinb611]

Okay, I've been gone for a few days (work has been making me nuts, but it's better than the alternative), but it's clear that there are more M114 fans out there than I realized. Thanks to Doug for keeping this going. Just to keep things going further, here are a couple of scans. The first is of that M113 I alluded to earlier, picturing Vic Saier, who does not appear on any known checklist. The second is a third Ty Cobb - in addition to the M113 (already pictured) and the 1941 version (showing him about to bunt, the most common version), this one is a "Washington DC" version, undoubtedly part of the large 1957 issue. And no, it also doesn't appear on any checklist.

[rajah424]

Very interesting read and great info. I was not aware of these issues and just checked Ebay to get an idea of pricing. There is a Wagner that looks brand new. Were these printed on special stock? Seems like these would be easy to duplicate and you would want to have these in hand to verify if they are original.

Again some great poses and they look great framed.

[akleinb611]

Also, in response to that earlier posting, I do have a few signed examples from this set. Nothing spectacular or rare, but I'll post what I have, hopefully by tomorrow.

[doug.goodman]

Okay, I've been gone for a few days (work has been making me nuts, but it's better than the alternative), but it's clear that there are more M114 fans out there than I realized. Thanks to Doug for keeping this going. Just to keep things going further, here are a couple of scans. The first is of that M113 I alluded to earlier, picturing Vic Saier, who does not appear on any known checklist. The second is a third Ty Cobb - in addition to the M113 (already pictured) and the 1941 version (showing him about to bunt, the most common version), this one is a "Washington DC" version, undoubtedly part of the large 1957 issue. And no, it also doesn't appear on any checklist.

I love that Saier.

[akleinb611]

As promised, here are images of most of the signed M114's that I have.

Nothing rare or astounding, but a nice little collection. I may have a few more that need excavation, and additionally, I have a large number of autographed M114 IMAGES. By that I mean that about twelve years ago, I gathered all the M114's that I had that pictured living players, and made photocopies of them and sent them out. They came back signed - but technically they're not "signed M114's".

Enjoy!

PS--The Don Kolloway is a bit of a cheat, as it's actually a signed inside cover from BB Magazine. But the image is the same as his M114.

[doug.goodman]

I didn't discover m114s until after I had given up on autographs.

Those are nice Alan

[doug.goodman]

I added the 1921 Giants Team to my collection, thanx to Richard Simon via ebay.

I also found that I do have an autographed m114...

[jim]

don't know if you had seen these ones yet Doug from your list:
263306

263307

263308

[doug.goodman]

Nice ones, thanx Jim

[doug.goodman]

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.



2-3-4 : There are three with NY on the right hand side.

The middle one is easiest to spot the difference based on the placement of his foot in relationship to the text on the right hand side.

The text on on both sides of the top one is inside the width of the picture, while on the bottom one the text is printed wider.



5-6-7-8-9-10-11 : There are seven with New York on the right hand side.

The top two have the letter J in Joseph level with the other letters, and the placement of the text on the right hand side is different.

The next four all have a "dropped J" in Joseph. The top and bottom look to have the same placement of all the text, so you might think they are the same, but note on the bottom one that the font is different. It is easiest to spot on the left hand side,the "M" in magazine is different, and the "k" in York is different.

On the other two (the 2nd and 3rd down) see how the foot is lined up with the name differently? Also the text on the right hand side of #3 goes beyond the picture.

The bottom on has a way smaller name, and see how the right hand text has different placement, with the little box to the right of York?

[hcv123]

Is there a Clemente in the set?

[doug.goodman]

Is there a Clemente in the set?

Not that is listed in the catalog, and I have never seen one.

But, I hope there is.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.



Here is the DC version of Joe D. It's the only one that calls him Joe.

Doug

[jim]

the top Evers has Poster #7 at the bottom; not sure if it is also available without the #7 designation; maybe the big guns can weigh in on this. the top Chance as a Cub has Poster #4 at the bottom; same question as for the Evers. enjoy.
263427

263428

263429

263430

[doug.goodman]

the top Evers has Poster #7 at the bottom; not sure if it is also available without the #7 designation; maybe the big guns can weigh in on this. the top Chance as a Cub has Poster #4 at the bottom; same question as for the Evers. enjoy.

Another home run from Jim. Thank you, sir.

I have the Evers poster #7, and haven't seen it without the #7.

I don't have the Evers #4, and haven't seen it without, either.

Doug

[Leon]

Nice info...

I picked up another Joe D a couple days ago, which gives me 11 different versions.

1 : I have a DC version, but for some reason haven't scanned it.

2-3-4 : There are three with NY on the right hand side.

The middle one is easiest to spot the difference based on the placement of his foot in relationship to the text on the right hand side.

The text on on both sides of the top one is inside the width of the picture, while on the bottom one the text is printed wider.

5-6-7-8-9-10-11 : There are seven with New York on the right hand side.

The top two have the letter J in Joseph level with the other letters, and the placement of the text on the right hand side is different.

The next four all have a "dropped J" in Joseph. The top and bottom look to have the same placement of all the text, so you might think they are the same, but note on the bottom one that the font is different. It is easiest to spot on the left hand side,the "M" in magazine is different, and the "k" in York is different.

On the other two (the 2nd and 3rd down) see how the foot is lined up with the name differently? Also the text on the right hand side of #3 goes beyond the picture.

The bottom on has a way smaller name, and see how the right hand text has different placement, with the little box to the right of York?

[doug.goodman]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time letting this thread die...

And, I know that Jim has one that has different text at the bottom...

[jim]

found these in the archives. another 3 pieces knocked off your original list Doug!
Cobb top row, 5th from left
264163

264164

264165

[akleinb611]

I'm back! And so is this thread!

I have trouble letting things go, or so my wife tells me...

Anyway, this has been a great experience when it comes to comparing our collections, and thanks to Doug, I for one have learned a lot about the endless caption variations. I'm confident that I'll never have the budget or the focus to collect them all.

However, I'd like to steer things a little closer to what I had in mind in the first place, which is to exchange information about the set. Let's face it, there are few major sets about which so little is known. And there are lots and lots of questions.

Are there any Baseball MAGAZINE collectors/experts out there? Does anyone have any detailed knowledge about the magazine's final years, how its inventory was ultimately disposed (there was a major auction house sale a few years ago - the printing plates have already been cited). Was there an inventory of posters included in that sale? Have there been any warehouse finds? Because pioneer New York area dealer Bob Gallagher was selling M114's from a two foot high stack on his table at shows in the late Seventies, and I don't think he purchased them one at a time.

Other issues I'd like people to join in on: set oddities. Ken Keltner is listed as having had posters issued in 1939 and 1947. I've only seen the one relatively common batting pose. Any other versions lurking out there?

Not long ago, someone got hold of a 1928 Jimmie Foxx printed in green rather than the usual sepia. It looked like the real thing. Anyone else have off-color premiums? (you're free to insert your own jokes here)...

Finally, here's my current list of posters that do not appear on the official list. Please, by all means, feel free to add to them:

M113: 1-4) Ty Cobb, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance, Walter Johnson - each seems to exist in two poses, and the official list has only one each.
5) Vic Saier - not listed anywhere
6) Death Valley Scott - also not listed, although I've seen a few around.

M114: 1) Mickey Cochrane (Tigers) - probably 1935. Only version on the list is from 1925, obviously showing him with the A's
2) Rudolph York (Tigers, batting) - there's a catching pose from 1938 and a dugout pose from 1946, both listing him as "Rudy." My guess for "Rudolph" is 1942.
3) Dizzy Dean (Cubs) - probably 1938
4) Joe Gordon (NY) - second pose, shown early in this thread. 1942?
5) Bob Feller (Washington DC caption) - probably 1957
6) Ty Cobb (batting cage, Washington DC) - shown in an earlier post of mine, probably 1957
7) Mickey Mantle - two poses have been shown in this thread, only one is on the list

Happy hunting.

Alan Kleinberger

[Estwd]

Hi Dave - I just purchased a Ted. It has a New York address on it. Does that mean it was printed in 1939? Also,were there different images used for the 1939 vs 1949 versions?

Thanks for your help!

Evan

Alan,
Thanks for the thread, and yes, your article is the GO-TO knowledge (I use it frequently). I have about 15 different M113 and about 40 different M114 in my collection, mostly HoF players. I would reiterate two comments from Alan's work that are really worse than he states:

First, as noted in Alan's article and with Doug's presentation of the Aaron, those post-1953 M114 are far tougher than any others. The Aaron I have (just as the one Doug posted) took me >5 YEARS to find, and that is searching auctions and eBay on a minimum of 2-3x/week basis. I really wonder what the actual print run of these photos were.

Second, as an avid Ted Williams, I have almost been "hoarding" both the 1939 and 1949 versions of Ted, with about 10 of the 1939 and 8 of the 1949. Also what I note here is that the "Washington D.C." address of the 1950 and beyond M114s are also much rarer than I expected. As I have 2 of the "1949 versions" of Ted with the Washington D.C. address, I presume that these were actually done in the early 1950's, so I have always wondered how much the dates are TRUE, or are many of the M114s like the corresponding Exhibits, and have a "range" of actual printing dates?

Just a few points.

Dave

[Estwd]

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I call the one with the stadium background pose #1, and the one on the black background pose #2. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...

[lumberjack]

Alan,
The auction you are speaking of took place in New York City over two days in September of 1996. Christie's East (I don't believe there has been an "East" for some time), handled the auction. Once in a while, a catalog will turn up on eBay. They are a trip.

The auction was a big deal; the New York Times did a article a week before the sale. This was good publicity for the auction house, but I don't believe they considered this stuff to be classy material. There were about 17 thousand photos in the auction.

Bill Mastro was the big spender on the first day, buying Conlon lots and lots packed with HOFers. He may have spent in the vicinity of 40 thousand dollars. Mr. Mastro was a smart guy and may have had buyers for this stuff when he walked on to the auction floor. There were, maybe, two other big dealers who picked up a disproportionate number of lots. I can think of only one or two private collectors who may have made an imprint.

There had been the Culver sale of Bain photo about 4 years prior to this auction. Sotheby's handled that auction. That was the first time photographs went for big money. That was just a weird auction....


There were no M113 or M114 premiums, but there were about 20 lots of what the auction house called "cover" photos. I have at least one that wasn't mounted, but most were Conlon shots affexed to heavy board.

BB Magazine was around from 1908 into 1955. Between '55 and '65 it was sort of hit and miss.

The last publisher was Earl Noyes of Washington. D.C. His widow was in possession of the photo library until the Christie's sale. She had made attempts to sell the photos, but, until the Christie's auction, had no luck. You have to remember, photographs were of absolutely no value, if you were going to collect baseball memorabilia in those days, it would have been cards or autographs or programs. I have been told there was an asking price of $100,000, which would have constituted a real gamble. Who knows?

Here's the punch line: about three weeks after Christie's hauled out the 17 thousand photos, a pipe flooded the apartment where the pictures had been stored.
lumberjack

[doug.goodman]

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

I'm happy that this thread is back in action...

I do not know, and I'm not sure if it's possible to know which years many of these issues were printed.

Doug

[akleinb611]

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

[Estwd]

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...Very helpful, thanks!

Evan

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

[doug.goodman]

In the spirit of the multiple holidays during the next 10 days, here are the multiple versions of the Archer m113. Among other differences, note the placement of the copyright symbol both under the edge of the picture and to the left of the edge.

Doug "yes, I may be slightly nuts, but different IS different" Goodman

ps - I have fixed my numbering to reflect my agreement with Alan regarding the Williams pictures chronology.

[doug.goodman]

And here are two versions of the O'Toole m113.

Same thing with the copyright placement as the Archer.

Also, note how the second line "The $25,000 Pitcher" isn't as wide in relation to the first line "Marty O'Toole" on the lower scan, only reaching from the "R" in Marty to between the second and third "O"s in O'Toole.

[doug.goodman]

Here are two versions of the Jim Scott m113

[doug.goodman]

There were posters issued in 1957 which measure 17.5 X 20 inches.

Here are scans for :

Johnny Antonelli
Jackie Jensen
Bob Lemon
Chet Nichols
Dean Stone
Mickey Vernon

I also have Bob Turley, but haven't scanned him, yet.


According to the catalog there are also posters for :

Hank Bauer
Frank House
Al Kaline
Al Rosen

Do any of you have any of the missing four?

[Harford20]

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

ALSO Quote from doug.goodman
So, I just posted the two Ted Williams poses, here are the 5 print variations of Pose #2. The DC difference is obvious, but the other 4 are more subtle. I need to learn how to use photoshop so that I can put those 4 in one picture and note the differences. They are subtle, but they are there. Notice the placement of the text versus the designs in the grass and the edges of the picture. Different printings, in my opinion.


Alan, perfect!
Doug, last month, finally picked up my 7th variation for Ted Williams (as you had posted last year--2 versions of the 1939 and 5 versions of the 1949). I agree, in looking at these versions side-by-side, I also believe each is a different print-run, and likely once yearly from 1949 through 1954/55.

I also saw that you picked up another Joe D. variation; will have to keep a look-out for those Ted variations that have not been found yet.

Dave

[doug.goodman]

Here are the three more large sized 1957 poster scans :

Missing only Frank House and Al Kaline...

[doug.goodman]

With thanx to the most recent Huggins & Scott auction, I have added 4 more m114s to my collection (1036 total) with one of them being a previously unseen (at least by me) Mantle pose. That gives him three different issued poses, that I am aware of.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Congrats to whoever picked up this m114 Willie Mays tonight on ebay, those don't come up very often, and even though it's beat up, I thought the price was pretty good.

I picked up the Rosen for $2.24 instead.

If anybody reading this picked up the group of 15 for $82, I would be interested in the Robin Roberts that was included.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Good morning -

The combination of the zombie apocalypse, and my natural tendency towards staying up all night, is giving me time to dig into my m114 collection. Alan and myself are combining our lists and are pretty close to having an up to date "checklist" for what the two of us are aware of, and we're also pretty close to asking the rest of you to take a look at it to let us know what we missed.

Until then, here are the lower label print differences (that we know of) for players whose last name starts with "A"...

Avila - 2
396931

Ashburn - 2
396930

Appling - 6
396929

Alexander - 2
396928


Since it's 5:35 am, I think I may go to be now.

Doug "or maybe I'll have some rainbow sherbet" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

After a big bowl of rainbow sherbet, here are the players whose last names start with "B" (in two posts).

Blackwell - 3
396955

Bevens - 4
396954

Berra - 2
396953

Bearden - 2
396952

Bauer - 2
396951

Bagby Sr. - 2
396950

Bagby Jr. - 2
396949

[doug.goodman]

Brown - 2
396962

Brissie - 2
396961

Brecheen - 3
396960

Branca - 2
396959

Boudreau - 7
396958

Bottomley - 2
396957

Bonham - 3
396956

[h2oya311]

Doug -

I'm scared to ask, but can you identify the date of issue based on the font of any of these...perhaps by cross-referencing them with other players with the same font and the first year they would have been produced?

Also, do you know if there is a Kaline M114 with a New York address (vs. Washington DC)? I believe you said that the Washington DC addresses started in 1954.

Who knew there were this many variations of an under-appreciated and under-collected set? Other than you, of course!

[doug.goodman]

Doug -

I'm scared to ask, but can you identify the date of issue based on the font of any of these...perhaps by cross-referencing them with other players with the same font and the first year they would have been produced?

Also, do you know if there is a Kaline M114 with a New York address (vs. Washington DC)? I believe you said that the Washington DC addresses started in 1954.

Who knew there were this many variations of an under-appreciated and under-collected set? Other than you, of course!

Date of issue : believe it or not, I haven't really paid much attention to dates (yet) other than to just run with what is in the SCD. I suppose at some point, I will probably get into dates, but I don't think we will ever really know, unless somebody finds a file cabinet filled with m114 (and hopefully m113) paperwork from the Baseball Magazine offices (or their printer).



Al Kaline : It was actually Alan's groundbreaking 2008 article in SCD that let me know about the DC address.

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/memorabilia/m114

I have never seen a Kaline with a New York (or NY) address line, and would not be surprised if one doesn't exist, but I'm always looking, just in case.

Doug

[h2oya311]

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing!

[doug.goodman]

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing!

The author of that article, is the OP of this thread.

[akleinb611]

Thanks for the kind words. When I started it, I had hoped that this thread would find its way to someone who actually knows stuff about the goings-on at Baseball Magazine, particularly during its later years, but so far, not so much. My article was written by someone who didn't actually KNOW anything, just someone who'd been collecting the set for a long time and deduced some things. It just shows that enthusiasm will overcome ignorance.:eek:

Seriously though, I am very flattered that people have found my article useful. No doubt the lack of other articles written about the set helps mine stand out.:D

Alan

[puckpaul]

Always enjoyed these, chance to pickup some great players cheaply! I did however shell out some money for some fully intact M113s from Steve V many years ago. Complete large sizes and no creases. Steve convinced me how rare they were like that. Someone referenced Steve buying these years ago, I was the beneficiary and ultimate buyer of some of them.

I Moved around quite a bit after that, lugging the stack of these around in an art case. I framed a few so I can see them easily, then thought that was mistake since they were in such pristine condition that was now covered up a bit! I love that Walter Johnson pitching arm pose, pretty unique image and card?

Never see much interest in these, or love from auctions or prices... but they are great!

Here is my Walter... unlike the others this one was well loved over the years and creased.

Paul

[Schlesinj]

Here is a Uncle Jimmy that was signed by Lou’s wife.

434837

[doug.goodman]

.. I love that Walter Johnson pitching arm pose, pretty unique image and card? ...

That's the best m113, in my opinion.

[metroac]

I've gotten interested in the M114's relatively recently. They seem to provide a rare opportunity to land a "card" of some otherwise unobtainable Hall of Famers. I gather, though, that some/many of the poses were issued after the players' careers were over.

Is there a checklist anywhere online that gives the dates of issue of the various poses? I assume everyone would prefer something that was issued during the player's career, just I assume there'd be a price difference attached to the issues from when the player was active. I'm not so much interested in price/value, though, just year of first issue. Can anyone help?

[sb1]

Long ways off, but I will have well over 100 M113/114's in my next auction, with several text variations and HOFers.

[T206Collector]

I have several signed M114s from the Doc Steen collection. But my favorite signed M114 is my Wagner:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49106696951_7eaca8852f_c.jpg

I also used to own this signed M113 Speaker, but I traded it for a Ty Cobb check endorsed by fellow T206 player Cad Coles.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52064321439_69306af0a7_c.jpg

[Leon]

Great thread with a lot of information. The collector gene can clearly be seen.
I remember measuring, to a 64th of an inch, a whole group of 1916-W unc cards as a small project. I drank a lot of coffee that morning, as I remember.
Thanks for sharing, guys!
.

[doug.goodman]

Long ways off, but I will have well over 100 M113/114's in my next auction, with several text variations and HOFers.

Can we get a link, please?

[sb1]

Will be several months away yet.... www.brockelmanauctions.com

[doug.goodman]

I'm going to go get in line now, it will be like going to see AC/DC in 1982 when I got to the Cow Palace the night before the show...

[whiteymet]

Hi Guys:

The next Huggins and Scott auction will have a lot of over 100 M114's.

Link is nelow. No photos posted yet

https://hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=60504