T210 Old Mill "Mystery" Players

[Vintagecatcher]

Although it is not uncommon to find cards in the PCL zeenut sets that show players that made the card set, but never made the official team roster, it seems that a similar situation also occurs in the T210 Old Mill set.

While attempting to identify players that had H807-1 Old Mill Cabinets, I learned that at least 2 players that appear on cards in the T210 set and H807-1 set don't seem to have made the official team roster.

Anyone have the full names for Spicer, Portsmouth or Zimmerman,
Lynchburg, both are Series #2 cards?

There was a Bryant Spicer that was from West Virginia that played for the Montgomery Miners in the 1911 Mountain States League, and in 1912 Blue Grass league. One of the players/managers from that group of teams, Harry Kunkel, also played on the 1910 Portsmouth team. Perhaps a connection.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.cgi?id=spicer001bry

With regards to Zimmerman, there was a Bill Zimmerman that played in the
1911 Kentucky-Illinois-Tennessee League. Those are my guesses so far.

Patrick

[Vintagecatcher]

One of our long time forum members emailed me to confirm that my guesses were correct regarding these two players. He had newspaper accounts to verify the names.

Thanks again for your assistance!

Patrick

[Jason]

Great work! Its funny how both the Series 2 and 4 Spicer cards utilize almost the exact same pose. Patrick I love these T210 threads I think its such an interesting set.

[Vintagecatcher]

Jason,

There is always the possibility that Bryant Spicer managed to get two cards in the T210 set.

Assuming the series were printed sequentially, Series #1- Series #8, perhaps Bryant Spicer initially was with Portsmouth, and then was traded to or "jumped" to Montgomery. If so, knowing when this occurred might be beneficial to helping date when the different series in the T210 set were printed.

Patrick

[sb1]

I can tell you that Bryant D. Spicer signed with Portsmouth on March 6 1910, also he is the same Spicer that attended Fredericksburg College, He signed with Danville just out of college Feb 23 1908. He is originally from Orange, Virginia. By 1918 he was in the service and played on military teams. Between 1910 and 1918 somewhere he became the coach Woodbury Forest School, which he attended as a young man.

As to Zimmerman. An April 7 1911 newspaper article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle reports of a Spring training game between the Superbas and Lynchburg, that Arthur Zimmerman, brother of Chicago Cubs Heinie Zimmerman is trying to secure a place on the Lynchburg team. The box score shows he had one hit in two at bats. Arthur was signed on Feb 19, 1911. BUT when reading further in the papers, on March 23, 1911 it tells of Arthur joining the squad AND wait for it......his brother William Zimmerman had tried to make the squad the year before..SO I would say the T210 depicts William Zimmerman, also a brother of Heinie.

[Michael Peich]

Patrick—

This is an interesting thread since I enjoy conversations about T210s and H801-7s.

The Spicer cards raise an interesting point about whether or not he ever played for Portsmouth or Montgomery

As you know Bryant Spicer is not listed in Baseball-Reference.com as having played for either Portsmouth or Montgomery in 1910, although he is listed with Montgomery in 1911. He was probably on the 1910 Portsmouth/Montgomery rosters at some point, and as Scott has noted, he signed with Portsmouth on March 6, 1910. He had his photo taken for a card on both teams, but it was quite common for minor league players during this era, especially at the Class C & D levels, to move among teams, or to leave the game.

One documented example of player movement is Fred Stoehr who pitched for the Goldsboro Giants in 1909 and early 1910 before being released by the Giants, joining the Wilmington Sailors, and eventually leaving professional baseball altogether at the end of the 1910 season. According to B-R.com, Fred played only with Wilmington in 1910. So why wasn’t he listed with Goldsboro? Team and player records were not kept very well in 1910.

I know Stoehr’s story because I have a letter written by Fred to his wife on July 8, 1910 telling her that he asked for, and was given his release from Goldsboro. I also have the original release from the Goldsboro team dated July 7, 1910 (see below). Shortly after his release he joined Wilmington, and then left professional baseball at the end of the 1910 season.

I mention Stoehr because he is a not-uncommon example of minor league player movement, and I think Spicer was similarly on the move. In all likelihood Bryant had his photo taken for Portsmouth, but may have been released before the season started. Furthermore, on July 1 Portsmouth disbanded (due to financial struggles) and reformed in Petersburg. It’s also possible that Spicer moved from Portsmouth to Montgomery and had his photo taken with the Miners, but possibly didn’t paly for Montgomery in 1910. But as the example of Stoehr establishes, Spicer may very well have played for Montgomery in 1910. One would have to read contemporary newspapers to ascertain if he was on their team.

My point is that there are a number of players in both T209-2 and T210 who were on more than one team during the 1910 season, and their team affiliations were not always accurately depicted on their cards. The culprit for some of the player team attribution is probably poor record keeping, and player movement from team to team.

I don’t know what this adds to your verification of Spicer, but I hope it does shed some light on why some of the players in T210 were not on the rosters for the teams they are depicted.

Cheers, Mike

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks as always Michael!

No doubt minor league players bounced around frequently back in this deadball era. It's difficult to find the answers not only because of the subpar record keeping during this time, but as you know as a collector of the T209 sets, players also were known to play under aliases as well. Furthermore, many players went by nicknames which muddied the waters further.

One can only hope to use the resources of the internet, sites such as Baseball Reference, and local newspaper accounts from this time period to help establish where the truth lies.

Happy Holidays,

Patrick

P.S. Thanks for providing the two different Spicer cards from Series #2 and Series #4!

[Leon]

That is interesting history. Thanks for sharing, Mike. ...and hope all is well your way.

Patrick—

This is an interesting thread since I enjoy conversations about T210s and H801-7s.

The Spicer cards raise an interesting point about whether or not he ever played for Portsmouth or Montgomery

As you know Bryant Spicer is not listed in Baseball-Reference.com as having played for either Portsmouth or Montgomery in 1910, although he is listed with Montgomery in 1911. He was probably on the 1910 Portsmouth/Montgomery rosters at some point, and as Scott has noted, he signed with Portsmouth on March 6, 1910. He had his photo taken for a card on both teams, but it was quite common for minor league players during this era, especially at the Class C & D levels, to move among teams, or to leave the game.

One documented example of player movement is Fred Stoehr who pitched for the Goldsboro Giants in 1909 and early 1910 before being released by the Giants, joining the Wilmington Sailors, and eventually leaving professional baseball altogether at the end of the 1910 season. According to B-R.com, Fred played only with Wilmington in 1910. So why wasn’t he listed with Goldsboro? Team and player records were not kept very well in 1910.

I know Stoehr’s story because I have a letter written by Fred to his wife on July 8, 1910 telling her that he asked for, and was given his release from Goldsboro. I also have the original release from the Goldsboro team dated July 7, 1910 (see below). Shortly after his release he joined Wilmington, and then left professional baseball at the end of the 1910 season.

I mention Stoehr because he is a not-uncommon example of minor league player movement, and I think Spicer was similarly on the move. In all likelihood Bryant had his photo taken for Portsmouth, but may have been released before the season started. Furthermore, on July 1 Portsmouth disbanded (due to financial struggles) and reformed in Petersburg. It’s also possible that Spicer moved from Portsmouth to Montgomery and had his photo taken with the Miners, but possibly didn’t paly for Montgomery in 1910. But as the example of Stoehr establishes, Spicer may very well have played for Montgomery in 1910. One would have to read contemporary newspapers to ascertain if he was on their team.

My point is that there are a number of players in both T209-2 and T210 who were on more than one team during the 1910 season, and their team affiliations were not always accurately depicted on their cards. The culprit for some of the player team attribution is probably poor record keeping, and player movement from team to team.

I don’t know what this adds to your verification of Spicer, but I hope it does shed some light on why some of the players in T210 were not on the rosters for the teams they are depicted.

Cheers, Mike

[frankbmd]

Roy Ellam first played for Nashville, six years after his T206 card was produced

Five years ago I raised a similar query, which raised some Net54 dander.:D

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145356

[Vintagecatcher]

Frank,

Don't worry about the dander...your posts are "head & shoulders" above the rest.

Happy Holidays!

Patrick

[insidethewrapper]

The Feb 13th, 1909 issue of The Sporting Life indicated that Bryant Spicer signed with Portsmouth of the Virginia League.

[Michael Peich]

Patrick--Great dander response!

Frank--Once again, using the example of Foley White, it's entirely possible that Ellam was with Nashville before the season began, and after photos were taken for the cards. But he may have been cut/quit and then signed with Birmingham. Once again, there was tremendous player movement during this era.

If you're interested I can tell you the story of one of the rarest t209-2 cards, Steinbach, who started the season with Goldsboro, and then abruptly quit and left the team to return home, this after the season had just begun. His card is scarce because I suspect no one saved it because he left the team. For years it was thought his card didn't exist until the Pelaez collection was offered by REA, containing a copy of Steinbach's t209.

The other piece to remember is that record keeping, both by the teams, AND by the card manufacturers was not the precise, factually based system we expect. This era was, at times, post-truth.

Cheers, Mike