Dan McKee is a Star

[barrysloate]

Dan McKee has a nearly full page article and photo about him and his Zinn Baltimore News in today's NY Times. Dan, you're a star today. I was so impressed it inspired me to post, which happens about as often as one finds a Zinn baseball card.

[tiger8mush]

nice to see you around, Barry!
:)

[T206Collector]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/18/sports/baseball/baseball-card-collectors-guy-zinn.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share NYTimes: A Jewish Player’s 1914 Baseball Card Triggers a $125,000 Dispute

[ibuysportsephemera]

Here is the article:

Sports Monday
Jewish Player’s Card From 1914 Provokes a $125,000 Dispute


By BEN BERKON
<figure class="article-image image horizontal" style="max-width: 1024px"> https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/18/sports/00BBCARD1/00BBCARD1-jumbo.jpg

<figcaption> Dan McKee’s rare baseball card of Guy Zinn, who was the first player to bat at Fenway Park. He was also Jewish, which made the card of interest to Jeff Aeder, who started the online Jewish Baseball Museum in March.
Andrew Mangum for The New York Times
</figcaption> </figure>
More than a hundred years after Guy Zinn last appeared in a major-league game, his baseball card is causing a commotion.
The fuss has nothing to do with Zinn’s skill. His playing career yielded some distinctions — including his being one of 11 players to steal home twice in a game and appearing as the first batter in Fenway Park. But most of his statistics over five major-league seasons (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/z/zinngu01.shtml), including a .269 career batting average, suggest that he was a very ordinary athlete.
The trait that set Zinn apart, and made his baseball card unusually valuable, was his ethnicity. Zinn was Jewish, which all but guaranteed him a following for generations. A fan subculture has long coalesced around Jewish ballplayers, so much so that their cards have a special category on eBay (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5336861720&customid=NET54&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fbhp%2Fjewish-baseball).
Jeff Aeder, a Chicago real estate developer, is one of the most prominent figures in that subculture, and a 1914 Zinn card owned by a Maryland man has become, as other collectors describe it, Aeder’s holy grail. It is believed to be the only card of its type still in existence.
Aeder offered $125,000 for the card in 2014 and nearly claimed it. But the deal went sour at the last minute. Aeder balked because, he said, he received a poor appraisal of the card’s condition. The owner, Dan McKee of Baltimore County, refused to renegotiate.
<figure class="article-image image horizontal" style="max-width: 1024px"> https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/18/sports/00BBCARD2/00BBCARD2-jumbo.jpg

<figcaption> Mr. McKee with his sports memorabilia collection in Freeland, Md., last month.
Andrew Mangum for The New York Times
</figcaption> </figure>
“I blocked his email,” said McKee, who bought the card for $2,500 in 1995 at a show in Fort Washington, Pa. “I don’t do business like that. If you make a deal, you make a deal.”
“If Zinn was not a Jewish player, this card is probably worth $10,000,” Aeder said. “If you talk to any dealer or collector, they’ll say McKee’s idea of value is the most overblown, crazy valuation of all time.”
So why was Aeder willing, at one point, to pay $125,000? “It really is something that if you have the means and the obsession, then someone pays a lot more than it’s worth,” he said.
Aeder and McKee, both 54, remain in a bitter standoff that highlights how passions that sprout in childhood can drive the sports memorabilia market.
“Zinn was not a significant player. The card, and the brouhaha surrounding it, is more interesting than the man,” said John Thorn, the official historian (http://sabr.org/about/john-thorn-chadwick) for Major League Baseball. “If anything, it illustrates something so interesting about the hobby, the inquisitiveness about the fan. There is this transfer of power by owning this thing.”
<figure class="article-image image horizontal" style="max-width: 1024px"> https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/18/sports/00BBCARD3/00BBCARD3-jumbo.jpg

<figcaption> The Zinn card was part of one of three sets that appeared as an insert in The Baltimore News. Each card provided a full season schedule on its back.
Andrew Mangum for The New York Times
</figcaption> </figure>
McKee, a software engineer who now works part time, became a collector when he was 7 and ultimately concentrated on unique cards and sets. McKee periodically posts some of his cards on auction websites — mostly out of curiosity, he said. He tends to list his items at exorbitant prices because, he said, he loathes parting with any card.
“I got stuff up in my eBay store that is actually part of my collection,” McKee said in a telephone interview. “And every now and then, somebody hits the ‘buy it now’ button and I’ll scream.”
He did sell an 1894 Baltimore Orioles set — which was produced by the Alpha Photo Engraving Company — for six figures in 2006. McKee said the transaction had helped pay for his current home, but he declined to specify the sales price or the worth of his overall collection, which he called “too valuable to admit to.”
McKee displays much of his memorabilia in open cabinets and a World War II map case that he received from his Army National Guard unit. The more valuable items, however, are kept in safes.
“I keep a 9-millimeter in each one,” he said, then added dryly, “but I’d rather not use it if I don’t have to.”
<figure class="article-image image horizontal" style="max-width: 1024px"> https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/18/sports/00BBCARD4/00BBCARD4-jumbo.jpg

<figcaption> Zinn, playing with the New York Highlanders, sliding back to first base against Boston at Hilltop Park in New York City in 1912. His career yielded some distinctions, but he was an ordinary player over all.
George Grantham Bain Collection (Library of Congress)
</figcaption> </figure>
Aeder also started collecting as a boy, while growing up in a family that, he has said, included Dodgers pitcher Sandy Koufax in its Yom Kippur prayers to honor his choice not to play in Game 1 of the 1965 World Series because it fell on the holiday.
When Aeder was in his 30s, he said, he decided to sell his entire collection at a card show. That plan did not work out.
“Instead of selling, I wound up spending every penny on me buying new cards,” he said.
After completing the sets from his childhood, he turned to collecting the cards of Jewish baseball players.
“Many collectors are happy just to get one card of each player,” said Martin Abramowitz of Newton, Mass., whose collection ended up with Aeder after Abramowitz sold it to someone else to help pay for his daughter’s wedding. “Jeff is determined to get every card of every Jewish player.”
Aeder sees curating such artifacts as an extension of the philanthropy that prompted Chicago Magazine to pick him and his wife, Jennifer Levine, as its “Chicagoans of the Year (http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/December-2013/Chicagoans-of-the-Year-2013-Jeff-Aeder-and-Jennifer-Levine/)” in 2013. Among other things, the couple founded the Wolcott School for children with learning disabilities and Milt’s Barbecue for the Perplexed, a kosher restaurant that donates all of its profits to charity.
In March, Aeder introduced the online Jewish Baseball Museum (http://jewishbaseballmuseum.com/). “My idea was to celebrate both the rich history of Jews in America and how baseball was an opportunity to fit in,” he said. “And today, now that they fit in, it’s an opportunity for them to feel more Jewish.”
McKee said he had no idea that Zinn was Jewish when he bought his card more than 20 years ago. McKee valued it for another reason. It was part of one of three sets that appeared as an insert in The Baltimore News and that provided a full season schedule on the back of each card.
A 1914 version of these so-called schedule-backs included the first card ever made of Zinn, who was then in his fourth season and playing for the Baltimore Terrapins of the Federal League.
Unlike the more popular cards of that era, which were produced by the American Tobacco Company, the schedule-backs were made from relatively thin material — like that of a playing card, but without the slick coating — and they were mostly discarded at the close of a season. As a result, few exist today. McKee said he had discovered 50 cards from the three schedule-back sets; some of them turned up as markers in old books.
Aeder first spotted the Zinn card in 2014 on McKee’s eBay store, where it was originally listed in 2010 as one of McKee’s “show and tell” items — for $250,000.
“He wrote me and offered me $10,000,” McKee said. “He rubbed me wrong, right off the bat.”
At Aeder’s behest, McKee said, he took a vacation day from his job to drive four hours to New Jersey to have the card authenticated — or “slabbed” — at the Sportscard Guaranty (http://www.sgccard.com/) Company.
“I wasn’t even going to try to get a number,” McKee said. But the company also rated the card, giving it a one out of 10.
“It’s a beautiful-looking card,” McKee said. “But it’s technical grade — because of the blue all the way to the edge, it has some chipping, it has a crease, it has some paper loss on the back — they’re never going to give it more than a one or a 1.5.”
The final grade disturbed Aeder. “The pictures he had sent did not look like it was a one,” Aeder said.
McKee said Aeder had suddenly begun overstating the importance of the card’s condition. Aeder did ask about it in their first email exchange, McKee said, “and I answered: ‘The only one known. That’s the only condition you need to know.’”
At an impasse, McKee and Aeder parted ways. They say they have not been in contact since.
“I’m coming to terms with the fact that I may never own the Zinn card,” Aeder said. “Well, at least, I know I will never buy it from Dan McKee.”
But both he and McKee hold out hope that another Zinn schedule-back card could still turn up somewhere.
“I have hopes that there’s plenty more of those out there,” McKee said. “That I’m going to find.”

[T206Collector]

nice to see you around, Barry!
:)


+1

[barrysloate]

Thanks guys.

[Rich Klein]

Agreed on good to see Barry

Good lord, if someone offered me $125K for a card which I paid 1/50th of that for, I would sell that card so fast in a heartbeat. After all, I can keep the scan and the pictures and the memories. But that money can pay for a couple years of college or other fun ventures.

Rich

[Vintagecatcher]

Barry,

Thanks for sharing. It was a fun read. Love the Federal's pennant as well.

Patrick

[Northviewcats]

Enjoyed reading the article. Great to see a post from Barry. I hope all is well.

[DaClyde]

I guess I'm missing the alleged "dispute". Seller wants more than the prospective buyer is offering and the story seems to end there.

[bn2cardz]

I guess I'm missing the alleged "dispute". Seller wants more than the prospective buyer is offering and the story seems to end there.

+1
I didn't see how this is a story. This is a very common "dispute" in any hobby.

[mechanicalman]

+1
I didn't see how this is a story. This is a very common "dispute" in any hobby.

No disrespect intended to the featured parties, but my first reaction was confusion as to what counts as journalism these days.

[Griffins]

+1
I didn't see how this is a story. This is a very common "dispute" in any hobby.

I"m having a similar dispute with a few car dealerships and realtors.

Welcome back Barry, and just in time for Festivus!

[rjackson44]

hope you are well great article octavio

[Peter_Spaeth]

+1
I didn't see how this is a story. This is a very common "dispute" in any hobby.

If this was worthy of an article, there are ebay sellers worthy of an entire book. :D

[Snapolit1]

No disrespect intended to the featured parties, but my first reaction was confusion as to what counts as journalism these days.

I guess the hook of the story, to the extent there is one, is that there is a subculture of baseball card collectors who focus on Jewish players. Even obscure ones. I am sure this is news (and maybe quite interesting) to people outside the hobby.

[tschock]

I'm still trying to figure out how it is a $125,000 dispute. At worst, $115,000.

[mark evans]

Thanks, Barry.

For what it's worth, I think I played a small role in the Zinn saga by advising Dan of the goldmine he has on his hands.

Quite a few years ago, I ran a classified ad in the Baltimore Sun seeking the Zinn card. Dan responded to my ad, advised he owned the card, and inquired as to the nature of my interest. I told Dan that I collect Jewish ballplayers. Dan said that he would only sell the card for 'crazy money.' I told him I have no crazy money. Ever since, we've enjoyed chats at card shows over the years.

I suspect that the Times article may well provoke serious offers.

[Snapolit1]

They should split the difference and do the deal. If another one surfaces tomorrow the could have been seller takes a huge hit.

[MartyFromCANADA]

Hey Dan, throw your George Gibson candy cards up on ebay, see if you get a BIN. :D

Hope all is well man.

Marty.

[Luke]

They should split the difference and do the deal. If another one surfaces tomorrow the could have been seller takes a huge hit.

No offense but this seems like a really asinine comment. The guy looked at a scan and said he would pay $125k. Then he saw the same card in the SGC 10 holder and backed out of the deal. What difference are you even talking about? The article doesn't even list the guys counter-offer after he backed out of the deal.

If I agreed to buy a raw card from you for $500, then when you got it back from SGC I said actually, I'll only pay $300, would you be fine with splitting that difference? You'd probably tell me to take a hike for backing out of a deal.

A deal made for a raw card is just as valid as a deal made for a graded card. Deals like that happen every day with just front and back scans.

[ramram]

Whoa! There's been a Barry sighting. Sprinkle a few more Seinfeld comments around and maybe we can get him to surface again. ;)

Hi Barry. Hope all is good.

Rob M

[barrysloate]

All is well Rob. Trust you are well too.

[1880nonsports]

think Barry is posting to a secret network in the interim. My best Barry should you open this thread again. I hear it's mighty cold there in Brooklyn and I'm not talking about the election.....

[barrysloate]

It's freezing Henry, that's why they call it winter. Thanks for your good wishes.

[kkkkandp]

Dan:

Congratulations on burnishing your legend in the hobby!

And I LOVE the last line in the newspaper article! :D

Kevin

P.S. Hi, Barry!

[BeanTown]

What's happening Barry! Good too hear from you! I would think the value of the Zinn card would go up after the article and if another one magically showed up, the value would be way more than what it was before the article.

I thought it was cool that Dan (hi Dan) picked it up at a card show back in 1995. I don't think the E commerce was too popular back then, and you had to actually had to do more work to buy cards. Nothing beats the fun of negotiating and playing rock, paper, scissors to determine the price.

[judsonhamlin]

Barry - it is good to see you post. Great article that I read in the actual paper over lunch. Hope all is well with you both. Can a NYC Dinner thread be far behind?

[KingFisk]

Great article but I am very curious how this caught the attention of the Gray Lady. Another win for putting the spotlight on the hobby.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Jantz]

Good to hear you are doing well Barry and thanks for posting about Dan's article.

[Snapolit1]

Looks like the value of this card just fell off a cliff.

http://jewishbaseballmuseum.com/spotlight-story/story-guy-zinn-subject-famous-baseball-card-no-longer-considered-jewish/

[conor912]

Looks like the value of this card just fell off a cliff.

http://jewishbaseballmuseum.com/spotlight-story/story-guy-zinn-subject-famous-baseball-card-no-longer-considered-jewish/

I'll take "Unintended Consequences" for $125k, Alex.

[Exhibitman]

Looks like the value of this card just fell off a cliff.

http://jewishbaseballmuseum.com/spotlight-story/story-guy-zinn-subject-famous-baseball-card-no-longer-considered-jewish/

Grapes soured at all there?

"Meanwhile, I contacted the National Baseball Hall of Fame Library, which maintains a file of player biographical information filled out either by the ballplayers or family members. Under “ancestry,” Mrs. E.W. Talley had written “German-Jew” on Guy Zinn’s profile page. Jean Talley was Zinn’s daughter. The form was filled out after Zinn’s death in 1949."

Zinn's daughter wrote he was Jewish on the record for the HOF? That is pretty solid evidence.

His death certificate [http://thedeadballera.com/DeathCertificates/Certificates_XYZ/Zinn.Guy.DC.pdf] lists his father as Noah Zinn.

Odds are his father was Jewish ahd his kids considered themselves Jewish, if that is what she wrote.

His grave isn't of use; he's buried in a non-denominational graveyard in WV.

The rest is speculation.

I guess if Dan had sold the card for $10,000 Zinn would have been Jewish...

[Snapolit1]

Sour grapes? No, just received an interesting news artilcle in my in box today. High stakes collecting is all about economics so I find this stuff interesting. Seems like you have a dog in the fight somewhere. I certainly don't.

[Sean]

I guess if Dan had sold the card for $10,000 Zinn would have been Jewish...

+1

[mark evans]

I'm inclined to agree with Adam on this. But, note factual confusion. Adam assumes Zinn's father to be Jewish and that Zinn considered himself Jewish based upon daughter's statement to HOF. But, Bob Wechsler's article states that both Zinn parents were Christians. If so, then I assume Zinn would have needed to go through some formal conversion process to become Jewish.

Can anyone provide me Bob's e-mail address so that I might follow up?

Mark

[Leon]

.... If so, then I assume Zinn would have needed to go through some formal conversion process to become Jewish.

..

Mark

Was Zinn circumcised? :cool:

[autograf]

Oy vey......what a mess......

[conor912]

Was Zinn circumcised? :cool:

What do you think a PSA/DNA graded Zinn foreskin would go for?:D

[Republicaninmass]

Was Zinn circumcised? :cool:

Of Yes, I'm sincerely hoping he got 10% off the top

[oaks1912]

Maybe Guy Zinn's daughter was named Elaine...?:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGIgnscRz6Q

[tim]

Steve,
I don't think Adam's "sour grapes" remark was directed at you. If I read him right, he's commenting on the fact that the article on Zinn not being Jewish appears on the Jewish Baseball Website. This website, according to the New York Times article, was created by Mr. Aeder, the prospective buyer of the card.
--Tim

[Snapolit1]

Thanks. I surmised that there was probably more going on here that I knew about.

[ramram]

Steve,
I don't think Adam's "sour grapes" remark was directed at you. If I read him right, he's commenting on the fact that the article on Zinn not being Jewish appears on the Jewish Baseball Website. This website, according to the New York Times article, was created by Mr. Aeder, the prospective buyer of the card.
--Tim

Whoa! That's just a minor clarification. Things just got (more) interesting.

Rob M

[DeanH3]

Whoa! That's just a minor clarification. Things just got (more) interesting.

Rob M

Agree 100%.

I guess the logic is, if I can't have a card I need from my collection to be complete, I'll make it so I don't need the card anymore. And BOOM! Collection complete. :)

[ls7plus]

Agreed on good to see Barry

Good lord, if someone offered me $125K for a card which I paid 1/50th of that for, I would sell that card so fast in a heartbeat. After all, I can keep the scan and the pictures and the memories. But that money can pay for a couple years of college or other fun ventures.

Rich

Awfully hard to argue with that logic--+1!

All the best,

Larry

[Snapolit1]

Agree 100%.

I guess the logic is, if I can't have a card I need from my collection to be complete, I'll make it so I don't need the card anymore. And BOOM! Collection complete. :)

The plot thickens . . . .

[ls7plus]

Whoa! There's been a Barry sighting. Sprinkle a few more Seinfeld comments around and maybe we can get him to surface again. ;)

Hi Barry. Hope all is good.

Rob M

Same here--Barry, we missed you!

Best wishes,

Larry

[Exhibitman]

Sour grapes? No, just received an interesting news artilcle in my in box today. High stakes collecting is all about economics so I find this stuff interesting. Seems like you have a dog in the fight somewhere. I certainly don't.

Not you, Steve, the buyer who took Zinn off his web site after he backed out of the deal on the card, my point being that since he couldn't get the card he decided to toss Zinn off the list, which reeks of sour grapes.

Interesting that the buyer made his money in real estate; that may explain his conduct. When I handle commercial transactions for clients buyers usually try to reduce the price after the deal is signed by denigrating the condition of the property during the due diligence period. Some go so far as to make the deal at whatever price they can fully aware that they will renegotiate after inspections and cancel if they cannot get a sufficient price reduction. It appears this buyer tried to do the same thing with the card.

[slidekellyslide]

Zinn's daughter filled out his HOF form in 1949 and listed him as "Jewish". That's rock solid to me. She would have no reason to lie, and she IMO being directly related to him and having I assume lived with him for probably the first 18-20 years of her life might know something about him.

This is 100% sour grapes.

[Bestdj777]

Zinn's daughter filled out his HOF form in 1949 and listed him as "Jewish". That's rock solid to me. She would have no reason to lie, and she IMO being directly related to him and having I assume lived with him for probably the first 18-20 years of her life might know something about him.

This is 100% sour grapes.

You trust his daughter over some unidentified woman who did "extensive" research on ancestory.com? :)

[PhillipAbbott79]

I am not sure it matters. You have one guy on the face of the planet that wanted to spend a monstrous sum of money over what the card is probably worth on a card that is at my guess a low population and also low demand.

If he or I was a business man, that was the right time to sell. It is likely worth less to a lot of other people. Values, morals or not, it will likely never be sold for more than what was offered, but I have definitely been wrong before. LOL.

[Kenny Cole]

I am not sure it matters. You have one guy on the face of the planet that wanted to spend a monstrous sum of money over what the card is probably worth on a card that is at my guess a low population and also low demand.

If he or I was a business man, that was the right time to sell. It is likely worth less to a lot of other people. Values, morals or not, it will likely never be sold for more than what was offered, but I have definitely been wrong before. LOL.

It seems pretty simple to me. He backed out of the deal he had agreed to after Dan did exactly what was asked of him and got the card graded. The grade didn't change anything about the card. It was the same card he had already agreed to buy and it was still the only one known. Whatever it graded was largely irrelevant. It just gave the guy an excuse to reneg. That's BS and I don't blame Dan a bit for telling the guy to F off. I would have too.

[1880nonsports]

only if his MOTHER was Jewish or she had converted from a religious standpoint. Not sure what the rules for the Jewish Museum are (self-serving?). He could still practice the faith in either case.

[mark evans]

only if his MOTHER was Jewish or she had converted from a religious standpoint. Not sure what the rules for the Jewish Museum are (self-serving?). He could still practice the faith in either case.

I'm unfamiliar with the Museum's standards but believe that Jewish Sports Review does not follow strict doctrine and thus includes all athletes where either parent is Jewish, athlete did not practice another faith during career, and self-identifies as ethnically Jewish.

But, even if one were to adopt this broader standard, Zinn's status remains unclear as the Wechsler article states that BOTH of his parents were Christians. I would be most interested in learning the basis for that conclusion, which would appear to be inconsistent with the HOF library form completed by Zinn's daughter. To square the conclusion that both parents were Christians with the form would require quite a stretch -- that Zinn's daughter interpreted the term 'ancestry' to mean the folks in the 'old country' and not necessarily Zinn's religion.

[PhillipAbbott79]

It seems pretty simple to me. He backed out of the deal he had agreed to after Dan did exactly what was asked of him and got the card graded. The grade didn't change anything about the card. It was the same card he had already agreed to buy and it was still the only one known. Whatever it graded was largely irrelevant. It just gave the guy an excuse to reneg. That's BS and I don't blame Dan a bit for telling the guy to F off. I would have too.

Well, like I was saying, I know he can do what he wants, and that he did do what he wants and I don't fault him for it, BUT it was likely from a financial decision a terrible idea to do what he did. He will likely never get that price again. That was the point. Nothing more or less.

[Snapolit1]

If you think that hasn't hurt the value of this card I have a large box of Jose Fernandez rookie card I would like to sell you.

[rjackson44]

love barry classy all the way ,,,

[Exhibitman]

I'm unfamiliar with the Museum's standards but believe that Jewish Sports Review does not follow strict doctrine and thus includes all athletes where either parent is Jewish, athlete did not practice another faith during career, and self-identifies as ethnically Jewish.

But, even if one were to adopt this broader standard, Zinn's status remains unclear as the Wechsler article states that BOTH of his parents were Christians. I would be most interested in learning the basis for that conclusion, which would appear to be inconsistent with the HOF library form completed by Zinn's daughter. To square the conclusion that both parents were Christians with the form would require quite a stretch -- that Zinn's daughter interpreted the term 'ancestry' to mean the folks in the 'old country' and not necessarily Zinn's religion.

Mark, I believe it was religious rather than national origin because decades ago using religion was a commonplace part of ethnic identification alongside national origins. In the 1921-28 issues with the printed backs Jewish fighters were labeled as “Jewish”, “Jewish-American”, “Hebrew” or “Hebrew-American”, while fighters from other immigrant populations were categorized as “hyphen-Americans” (Polish-American, German-American, etc.) or from their family’s original locations. This applied even to fighters who were born in the United States. It is typical to see a fighter born in New York listed as Hebrew, Irish, Polish or Scottish. My favorite one of these nationality identifiers was that of Leo Lomski, a native Washingtonian who was identified in the 1928 set as “Polish-Jewish-American”. The racial tone of the era also was reflected in the cards. African-American fighters were frequently referred to as “colored” champions.

[mark evans]

Thanks, Adam.

You know it also occurred to me that, while certainly not the most likely explanation for squaring Zinn's alleged Christian parents with the HOF form, it is possible that he merely claimed to be Jewish, for whatever reason I cannot imagine. But, I believe another early ballplayer (Jacob Atz?) apparently did that very thing.

[ramram]

For Zinn to be considered Jewish, it would only be necessary for his mother to be Jewish, correct? So Zinn, his father, is not terribly relevant. It would be his mother. It would be interesting to know her story and maiden name. They could have then chose to raise their kids Christian, following the father's faith.

Rob M

[howard38]

Thanks, Adam.

You know it also occurred to me that, while certainly not the most likely explanation for squaring Zinn's alleged Christian parents with the HOF form, it is possible that he merely claimed to be Jewish, for whatever reason I cannot imagine. But, I believe another early ballplayer (Jacob Atz?) apparently did that very thing.
He may have been marketed as a Jew by the Yankees. He played for them at the height of the Jewish migration to NYC in the 1910s so it could have been a stunt to draw in Jewish fans. I believe the New York Rangers did something like that in their early days.

[Snapolit1]

He may have been marketed as a Jew by the Yankees. He played for them at the height of the Jewish migration to NYC in the 1910s so it could have been a stunt to draw in Jewish fans. I believe the New York Rangers did something like that in their early days.

Great point. Touché.

[pbspelly]

It seems pretty simple to me. He backed out of the deal he had agreed to after Dan did exactly what was asked of him and got the card graded. The grade didn't change anything about the card. It was the same card he had already agreed to buy and it was still the only one known. Whatever it graded was largely irrelevant. It just gave the guy an excuse to reneg. That's BS and I don't blame Dan a bit for telling the guy to F off. I would have too.

I'm not sure this is correct. Maybe I misread the article, but it seemed to me that the buyer was alleging that the photos Dan displayed of the card misrepresented the card's condition. The buyer never actually saw the card in person, and so was going by photos Dan had posted on eBay. I've seen complaints here all the time about eBay photos that are doctored to make a card's condition look better than it really is. I'm not saying that Dan did that. I don't know Dan, but everyone here seems to speak highly of him so I'm sure that isn't the case. I'm just saying that that seems to be what the dispute is about, whether the condition of the card is actually the same as it appeared in the photos.

[irv]

I'm not sure this is correct. Maybe I misread the article, but it seemed to me that the buyer was alleging that the photos Dan displayed of the card misrepresented the card's condition. The buyer never actually saw the card in person, and so was going by photos Dan had posted on eBay. I've seen complaints here all the time about eBay photos that are doctored to make a card's condition look better than it really is. I'm not saying that Dan did that. I don't know Dan, but everyone here seems to speak highly of him so I'm sure that isn't the case. I'm just saying that that seems to be what the dispute is about, whether the condition of the card is actually the same as it appeared in the photos.

That is what I thought as well when I read the article. I immediately thought of Battlefield and how she "manipulates" her cards to look better than what they actually are.

[Kenny Cole]

I'm not sure this is correct. Maybe I misread the article, but it seemed to me that the buyer was alleging that the photos Dan displayed of the card misrepresented the card's condition. The buyer never actually saw the card in person, and so was going by photos Dan had posted on eBay. I've seen complaints here all the time about eBay photos that are doctored to make a card's condition look better than it really is. I'm not saying that Dan did that. I don't know Dan, but everyone here seems to speak highly of him so I'm sure that isn't the case. I'm just saying that that seems to be what the dispute is about, whether the condition of the card is actually the same as it appeared in the photos.

Thank about that for a minute. There is only one card known. ONE. Why would Dan alter a scan to improve the condition of the ONLY card known in order to sell it to a guy who is allegedly begging to buy it? Why would he try to do that? That doesn't even make sense when the only question is if the card is real. Plus, I don't think Dan would do that even if he could. He has never been anything but honest and upfront in the dealings I've had with him. Just my opinion but if that's the allegation, I would believe Dan over the buyer based on the currently available facts.

Kenny

[irv]

Thank about that for a minute. There is only one card known. ONE. Why would Dan alter a scan to improve the condition of the ONLY card known in order to sell it to a guy who is allegedly begging to buy it? Why would he try to do that? That doesn't even make sense when the only question is if the card is real. Plus, I don't think Dan would do that even if he could. He has never been anything but honest and upfront in the dealings I've had with him. Just my opinion but if that's the allegation, I would believe Dan over the buyer based on the currently available facts.

Kenny

These quotes were what I used to come to my conclusion. I am not saying, suggesting or alluding to this is what was done by, Dan, it was based on what was written within the article.

"Aeder balked because, he said, he received a poor appraisal of the card’s condition".

"The final grade disturbed Aeder. “The pictures he had sent did not look like it was a one,” Aeder said".

[Snapolit1]

Thank about that for a minute. There is only one card known. ONE. Why would Dan alter a scan to improve the condition of the ONLY card known in order to sell it to a guy who is allegedly begging to buy it? Why would he try to do that? That doesn't even make sense when the only question is if the card is real. Plus, I don't think Dan would do that even if he could. He has never been anything but honest and upfront in the dealings I've had with him. Just my opinion but if that's the allegation, I would believe Dan over the buyer based on the currently available facts.

Kenny

To add another 2 cents to the debate, I am sure there are many instances where a seller gives perfectly honest scans and the card just looks subjectively different in hand. Lighting, angle, etc. No attempt by anyone to defraud anyone. I have the damnedest time sometimes getting halfway decent scans.

[Sean]

I got the impression that the buyer was always planning to try to lower the purchase price. He asked Dan to have the card graded so that he had an excuse to negotiate a reduced price. Just my opinion, but I don't think the buyer ever intended to buy at that price. As Dan said, 1 of 1 is the only number that matters.

[mark evans]

I have NO doubt that Dan is telling the truth about this transaction. Absolutely none.

As I don't know Mr. Aeder, I could not speak to his motives.

[JustinD]

I got the impression that the buyer was always planning to try to lower the purchase price. He asked Dan to have the card graded so that he had an excuse to negotiate a reduced price. Just my opinion, but I don't think the buyer ever intended to buy at that price. As Dan said, 1 of 1 is the only number that matters.

+1

[conor912]

If I was willing to pay six figures for a card, you can be damn sure I would fly to wherever it resided to look at the in person before finalizing an offer. This whole debacle coming down to the quality of scans is absurd, imho.

[slidekellyslide]

I got the impression that the buyer was always planning to try to lower the purchase price. He asked Dan to have the card graded so that he had an excuse to negotiate a reduced price. Just my opinion, but I don't think the buyer ever intended to buy at that price. As Dan said, 1 of 1 is the only number that matters.

+2

And it's even more apparent that the butthurt is flowing through this guy pretty heavily right now.

[ValKehl]

I have NO doubt that Dan is telling the truth about this transaction. Absolutely none.

+1, as I have known Dan for a long time.

[glynparson]

Count me among those who believe Dan's account 100%.

[Exhibitman]

Since this is all memorialized in scans and emails the trail is pretty clear. From where I sit it looks like a straightforward breach of contract case with a substantial loss of profit claim and some consequential damages. I would sue but that's because I can represent myself for free.

[thecatspajamas]

These quotes were what I used to come to my conclusion. I am not saying, suggesting or alluding to this is what was done by, Dan, it was based on what was written within the article.

"Aeder balked because, he said, he received a poor appraisal of the card’s condition".

"The final grade disturbed Aeder. “The pictures he had sent did not look like it was a one,” Aeder said".

To me, that sounds like the grade that the card came back with was lower than either party expected, but that the number grade only ever mattered to one of them.

[danmckee]

Agreed on good to see Barry

Good lord, if someone offered me $125K for a card which I paid 1/50th of that for, I would sell that card so fast in a heartbeat. After all, I can keep the scan and the pictures and the memories. But that money can pay for a couple years of college or other fun ventures.

Rich

Rich my dear friend.... It ain't all about the money :)

[danmckee]

I guess I'm missing the alleged "dispute". Seller wants more than the prospective buyer is offering and the story seems to end there.

Dispute was buyer agreed to a price after seeing huge scans. Then backed out

[danmckee]

No disrespect intended to the featured parties, but my first reaction was confusion as to what counts as journalism these days.

No argument here :)

[danmckee]

They should split the difference and do the deal. If another one surfaces tomorrow the could have been seller takes a huge hit.

At this point, a million dollars of Jeff's money won't buy the card.... I do not do business like that period!

I don't care about "the hit" The problem with the hobby is it is all about money, I will gladly get buried with this card, I do not need the money... GET IT?

[danmckee]

No offense but this seems like a really asinine comment. The guy looked at a scan and said he would pay $125k. Then he saw the same card in the SGC 10 holder and backed out of the deal. What difference are you even talking about? The article doesn't even list the guys counter-offer after he backed out of the deal.

If I agreed to buy a raw card from you for $500, then when you got it back from SGC I said actually, I'll only pay $300, would you be fine with splitting that difference? You'd probably tell me to take a hike for backing out of a deal.

A deal made for a raw card is just as valid as a deal made for a graded card. Deals like that happen every day with just front and back scans.

Bingo Luke! Thanks for the sensible post! Dan

[danmckee]

Grapes soured at all there?

"Meanwhile, I contacted the National Baseball Hall of Fame Library, which maintains a file of player biographical information filled out either by the ballplayers or family members. Under “ancestry,” Mrs. E.W. Talley had written “German-Jew” on Guy Zinn’s profile page. Jean Talley was Zinn’s daughter. The form was filled out after Zinn’s death in 1949."

Zinn's daughter wrote he was Jewish on the record for the HOF? That is pretty solid evidence.

His death certificate [http://thedeadballera.com/DeathCertificates/Certificates_XYZ/Zinn.Guy.DC.pdf] lists his father as Noah Zinn.

Odds are his father was Jewish ahd his kids considered themselves Jewish, if that is what she wrote.

His grave isn't of use; he's buried in a non-denominational graveyard in WV.

The rest is speculation.

I guess if Dan had sold the card for $10,000 Zinn would have been Jewish...


I had nothing to do with him being Jewish, and could care less either way as I collect the Baltimore News Schedule cards.

You people are way to into the value part of the hobby, I have refused tons of money for cards that I will never be able to sell later for the same amount.

Dan Mckee

[danmckee]

Was Zinn circumcised? :cool:

Classic! :)

[danmckee]

Steve,
I don't think Adam's "sour grapes" remark was directed at you. If I read him right, he's commenting on the fact that the article on Zinn not being Jewish appears on the Jewish Baseball Website. This website, according to the New York Times article, was created by Mr. Aeder, the prospective buyer of the card.
--Tim

Bingo..... Man you people are not as dumb as I look :)

[danmckee]

Agree 100%.

I guess the logic is, if I can't have a card I need from my collection to be complete, I'll make it so I don't need the card anymore. And BOOM! Collection complete. :)

Bingo again! You are all learning that Aeder is a cry baby.

[danmckee]

If you think that hasn't hurt the value of this card I have a large box of Jose Fernandez rookie card I would like to sell you.

Who cares/..... I am keeping it so if it is valued at $100 or $1,000,000.00 doesn't matter.... I have tons of other expensive cards so means nothing to me!

[danmckee]

That is what I thought as well when I read the article. I immediately thought of Battlefield and how she "manipulates" her cards to look better than what they actually are.

This is complete BULLSHIT! I sent him regular scans at 300 dpi

I sell as darby-s and you get what you see in my listings

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here

[danmckee]

I got the impression that the buyer was always planning to try to lower the purchase price. He asked Dan to have the card graded so that he had an excuse to negotiate a reduced price. Just my opinion, but I don't think the buyer ever intended to buy at that price. As Dan said, 1 of 1 is the only number that matters.

Bingo again!! Some of you are much smarter than others here :)

[danmckee]

I have NO doubt that Dan is telling the truth about this transaction. Absolutely none.

As I don't know Mr. Aeder, I could not speak to his motives.

Thanks Mark, you are a good friend

[danmckee]

When this first happened I posted here asking if anyone has done business with Aeder because I had a bad transaction. One guy answered that this was the funniest thing he had ever heard.... well I hope he read the article.


Personally I thought the card belonged in Jeff's museum even though I never part with my schedule cards.


But with a deal gone sour, I am very happy to keep it whether it is worth the $2K I paid for it or not.

Dan Mckee.

[MartyFromCANADA]

You people are way to into the value part of the hobby, I have refused tons of money for cards that I will never be able to sell later for the same amount.

Dan Mckee

I can attest to this statement. He has some sweet Gibson candy cards. Won't sell :(

[danmckee]

I'm not sure this is correct. Maybe I misread the article, but it seemed to me that the buyer was alleging that the photos Dan displayed of the card misrepresented the card's condition. The buyer never actually saw the card in person, and so was going by photos Dan had posted on eBay. I've seen complaints here all the time about eBay photos that are doctored to make a card's condition look better than it really is. I'm not saying that Dan did that. I don't know Dan, but everyone here seems to speak highly of him so I'm sure that isn't the case. I'm just saying that that seems to be what the dispute is about, whether the condition of the card is actually the same as it appeared in the photos.

This is ridiculous, I do not doctor photos, the guy viewing them is a complete ignorant non collecting idiot.

[danmckee]

That is what I thought as well when I read the article. I immediately thought of Battlefield and how she "manipulates" her cards to look better than what they actually are.

Someone please send me Irv's ebay ID so I can block it, anyone comparing me to that scumbag battlefield has no right ever doing business with me. Look at my feedback as darby-s, this is completely unwarranted.

[danmckee]

Of course it didn't look like a 1, it is a gorgeous card, has color all the way to the edge like a 1971 topps, has a horizontal crease and a tiny spot of paperloss on back. Killer eye appeal but a technical grade of 1, and all he wanted was that it was authenticated because he is too stupid to know the cards himself. Let some 25 year old kid tell him it is real, well I didn't need that when I just mashed those Washington Times cards on ebay..... No need for some punk grading service to tell me they are real......

I am gone

Done with this chatboard stuff

[irv]

This is complete BULLSHIT! I sent him regular scans at 300 dpi

I sell as darby-s and you get what you see in my listings

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here

This is ridiculous, I do not doctor photos, the guy viewing them is a complete ignorant non collecting idiot.

Someone please send me Irv's ebay ID so I can block it, anyone comparing me to that scumbag battlefield has no right ever doing business with me. Look at my feedback as darby-s, this is completely unwarranted.

Did you read my next post after the one I posted above, or did you conveniently skip that one so you could add drama to this one?

While you go retrieve that one to quote, read the one above and tell me where I personally accuse you of actually doing that. :confused:

[danmckee]

Sadly Irv, I do not read well at 54 years old and a Redneck

But I truly hope you do not think I am near the scumbag Battlefield is.

I am a collector at heart and pride myself on good business.

Sorry I missed your follow up posts

Dan

[danmckee]

I used to thrive on here, probably started more crap than I should have and was a real asshole at times.... Now I am old and too thin skinned to come back, kinda sad as I could really bring a lot of quality knowledge about the 1987 Topps set that I specialize in.

[bnorth]

I used to thrive on here, probably started more crap than I should have and was a real asshole at times.... Now I am old and too thin skinned to come back, kinda sad as I could really bring a lot of quality knowledge about the 1987 Topps set that I specialize in.

Damn and the 1987 Topps is in my 64th favorite Topps set.:)

[frankbmd]

I used to thrive on here, probably started more crap than I should have and was a real asshole at times.... Now I am old and too thin skinned to come back, kinda sad as I could really bring a lot of quality knowledge about the 1987 Topps set that I specialize in.

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

[mechanicalman]

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

My gut says oak, but I wouldn't rule out bamboo (though that species wasn't as trendy 30 years ago.)

[icollectDCsports]

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

Likely cocobolo.

[Leon]

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

at least make it '68 Topps wood veneer..(and I get that it was Dan who made the first reference to 1987 Topps)....but just sayin'..

[kmac32]

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

It was made from wood grain paneling stripped from the basement of a 1960's home or old medical office in a TB ward.

[kmac32]

This is complete BULLSHIT! I sent him regular scans at 300 dpi

I sell as darby-s and you get what you see in my listings

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here

I just bought a T205 Broadleaf from Dan and no complaint about his scans. Good person to deal with in my opinion.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Dan,

I have always wondered what kind of wood is used in the borders of the 1987 Topps set.

Pau Lope

[slidekellyslide]

There is a thread on the autograph forum about the 1987 Topps Baseball set that may be one of the most fascinating threads on this entire forum. And I'm not even kidding.

[frankbmd]

Dan,

I agree with you. As a 1987 Topps specialist, I have asked only you a question on Net54 and all I get is a bunch of fodder from a half a dozen other yahoos.:D


or is it 7 or 8 yahoos by now?;)

[BengoughingForAwhile]

I just bought a T205 Broadleaf from Dan and no complaint about his scans. Good person to deal with in my opinion.

I too have bought from Dan. A beautiful T206 John Ganzel PSA 4.5 to be exact. I was pleasantly surprised at how nice the card looked after receiving it, never thinking it could be as beautiful in hand as it looked in Dan's crystal clear scans. :)

[oldjudge]

Dan is one of the good guys in the hobby and I am proud to call him my friend.

[wrapperguy]

Done numerous dealings with Dan and he is a class act all the way.

[spaidly]

at least make it '68 Topps wood veneer..(and I get that it was Dan who made the first reference to 1987 Topps)....but just sayin'..

I always thought 1968 was basket weave. :confused:

[JohnP0621]

I've only Purchased one item from Dan in the past and it was one of the best transactions . He had a card listed in his Darby's eBay store that I really wanted as a buy it now ,but was out of my price range. His listing included a make an offer option. After contacting him he gave me a very fair price and also allowed me to pay it off in 3 installments . Since the card was very rare and ungraded I was unsure if it was altered and told him I was sending it to a grading co.to in -case it for protection. He concluded our transaction by telling me not to worry that if the card did not get a numerical grade I could send it back for a full refund. The card came back with a favorable grade . Truly amazing customer service and a pleasure to deal with.

(T206 Joe Tinker Port missing Red Ink)

Thanks again Dan!
Regards

John Perrotta

[irv]

Sadly Irv, I do not read well at 54 years old and a Redneck

But I truly hope you do not think I am near the scumbag Battlefield is.

I am a collector at heart and pride myself on good business.

Sorry I missed your follow up posts

Dan

No worries, Dan. My soon to be 53 yr old eyes aren't much better. :D

[gnaz01]

Done numerous dealings with Dan and he is a class act all the way.

+1000 Dan is truly a class act and a hobby friend!!!

[Paul S]

I always thought 1968 was basket weave. :confused:
Burlap is how I understand it.

[BeanTown]

Dan the man! One of the true real guys of the hobby and in the top class of knowledge here in the board. One of my favorite cards he sold me two decades ago was a Joe DiMaggio Zeenut card with coupon and he was flexible on price which I appreciated. Plus, he is a great buyer as he doesn't even haggle that much which I feel is a lost art. Dan is like EF Hutton of the stock market. When Dan talks, collectors should listen. I know I do and I'm thankful to have him as a longtime friend.

[Leon]

Dan is always easy to work with.

I've only Purchased one item from Dan in the past and it was one of the best transactions . He had a card listed in his Darby's eBay store that I really wanted as a buy it now ,but was out of my price range. His listing included a make an offer option. After contacting him he gave me a very fair price and also allowed me to pay it off in 3 installments . Since the card was very rare and ungraded I was unsure if it was altered and told him I was sending it to a grading co.to in -case it for protection. He concluded our transaction by telling me not to worry that if the card did not get a numerical grade I could send it back for a full refund. The card came back with a favorable grade . Truly amazing customer service and a pleasure to deal with.

(T206 Joe Tinker Port missing Red Ink)

Thanks again Dan!
Regards

John Perrotta

[scottglevy]

For those who have not met Dan, he is one of the foremost experts on T206 oddities, amongst other early baseball collectibles.

I am fortunate to (still) be able to collect with my dad - and we have done several transactions with Dan. Dan has a truly remarkable collection and tends to price cards to remain in his collection (which I fully understand) but occasionally I just can't help myself.

On the other hand, when Dan has purchased an item from my dad or I, it's a very straightforward process ... "what are you asking for this xx card?" Once answered, this is followed immediately by either a payment or a small smile with "I'll pass".

Congrats Dan on some well deserved fame.

[Taxman]

Congrats on the article Dan. Also do you have any of those rare Farino cards? :)