View Full Version : Million dollar mantle
orly57
11-19-2016, 07:07 AM
Maybe I am naive. Maybe I love baseball cards and value their appearance over their grade. Maybe I am just a centering freak. But the mantle below sold for over a million dollars. I could have Bill Gates' bank account and still wouldnt pay amillion bucks for a card that isnt well centered and actually has a tilt. I compared it to an sgc 7 currently on ebay at 300k obo (i am not the seller nor do i know the guy). Am I crazy to prefer the sgc 7??? Or in the alternative, is the difference a 700k difference?
ullmandds
11-19-2016, 07:34 AM
im with you...i'll take the 7 and a sweet house!
Stonepony
11-19-2016, 08:57 AM
I prefer the PSA graded card, but agree, if I had to pay the cash I'd buy the SGC example.
1952boyntoncollector
11-19-2016, 09:20 AM
Sell the holder not the card..
I do remember a few years ago when i re-entered the hobby how i was surprised how everyone was looking at centering this and centering that
when i was growing up i just looked at the corners...if the corners were bad that was the dealbreaker... not sure if i am alone in this.....
Maybe I am naive. Maybe I love baseball cards and value their appearance over their grade. Maybe I am just a centering freak. But the mantle below sold for over a million dollars. I could have Bill Gates' bank account and still wouldnt pay amillion bucks for a card that isnt well centered and actually has a tilt. I compared it to an sgc 7 currently on ebay at 300k obo (i am not the seller nor do i know the guy). Am I crazy to prefer the sgc 7??? Or in the alternative, is the difference a 700k difference?
I posted it in this thread, which wasn't about the Million dollar Mantle but I am surprised it didn't at least get someone talking?
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231296
It is hard to believe the price it got but I will say, if it isn't just the scan, the card looks super vibrant compared to the SGC copy.
Personally, if I had Bill Gates money, I would buy both! :D
tjenkins
11-19-2016, 10:09 AM
Sell the holder not the card..
I do remember a few years ago when i re-entered the hobby how i was surprised how everyone was looking at centering this and centering that
when i was growing up i just looked at the corners...if the corners were bad that was the dealbreaker... not sure if i am alone in this.....
I will totally agree with you on corners over centering but I am one of the few in this forum who absolutely does not mind off centering. Way more important to me personally over both centering and corners is creases/wrinkles and color/focus. I absolutely hate creases but no way a card gets a 7 or 8.5 with a crease. If a card is crease free and has great color and focus, I am good! I actually like the PSA 8.5 Mantle better because of color and focus but for a cool MILLION...no way.
Dpeck100
11-19-2016, 10:37 AM
I spoke to a high end collector on his way home from the National on the phone for an hour and he said the card is hand is stunning. Like it was printed yesterday.
I have said it a thousand times but cards like this are bragging rights pieces. This is a Pop 3 with only 6 PSA 9's and 3 PSA 10's. If you own a copy of a Mantle in this grade you are in rare company and at the end of the day that matters when it comes to price.
A PSA 9 sold for 3.4 million so this price isn't shocking at all.
Peter_Spaeth
11-19-2016, 10:55 AM
With that centering it should be an 8 IMO.
I agree, Orlando ... the centering is a bit off for a million dollar card. Agreed with Peter's take as well - looks like an 8 because of the centering.
But the color is banging! It looks pack fresh with the "wet" surface look to it.
I'll take a 83 Long Island National version, as that is all I can afford lol
rats60
11-19-2016, 01:22 PM
The PSA is a much nicer card, but both are way over priced. Aren't SCG 7s about 150-175k?
MattyC
11-19-2016, 01:36 PM
The Heritage 8.5 certainly has tilt and centering that would turn off many guys who aesthetically go for centering, yet it is also undeniably crisp, bright, and ultra sharp. I would grade it an 8, personally, due to the tilt and centering. That said, PSA made their assessment and it seems the overall "freshness" of the card carried it to the half point bump. Any card cracking the million dollar barrier is certainly good press for the hobby we all love.
I spoke to a high end collector on his way home from the National on the phone for an hour and he said the card in hand is stunning. Like it was printed yesterday.
I have said it a thousand times but cards like this are bragging rights pieces. This is a Pop 3 with only 6 PSA 9's and 3 PSA 10's. If you own a copy of a Mantle in this grade you are in rare company and at the end of the day that matters when it comes to price.
A PSA 9 sold for 3.4 million so this price isn't shocking at all.
Any story on where the card came from or was found? It does look pack fresh, those borders look snow white.
Going to have to look into the 9 copy that sold for 3.4 mil. I don't recall hearing about that one?
Edit: Seen it was traced back to Al Rosen's find.
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/sports/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-baseball-card-tops-11m-au/ntBKr/
The Heritage 8.5 certainly has tilt and centering that would turn off many guys who aesthetically go for centering, yet it is also undeniably crisp, bright, and ultra sharp. I would grade it an 8, personally, due to the tilt and centering. That said, PSA made their assessment and it seems the overall "freshness" of the card carried it to the half point bump. Any card cracking the million dollar barrier is certainly good press for the hobby we all love.
More than likely the case, and I agree with your "Is certainly good for the hobby" opinion.
Dpeck100
11-19-2016, 02:54 PM
Any story on where the card came from or was found? It does look pack fresh, those borders look snow white.
Going to have to look into the 9 copy that sold for 3.4 mil. I don't recall hearing about that one?
More than likely the case, and I agree with your "Is certainly good for the hobby" opinion.
It was a raw copy that Heritage brought to the National to get graded is what I was told. They were trying to get 1.3 or 1.5 million for it. The collector said they drove it there something like 11 hours. Not sure of the origin but as you can see from the scan it is a pack fresh looking example.
I am not certain if the person who bought the Mantle wants to be outed so I am not going to be the one to due so. That said I have seen a picture of the card and it is spectacular.
There were rumblings on this board about a sale over 3 million months ago and after speaking to a few people I believe there have been two.
On the CU board five years ago I stated I thought a 10 would easily bring 3 million. To the right buyer I bet that number is north of 10 and it wouldn't necessarily end up in a baseball card collectors hands. My thesis has always been a hedge fund manager or private equity guy who wants to showcase it on display in their Manhattan penthouse in a glass case. Talk about a conversation piece. One of only three cards to ever achieve the top grade of the most famous baseball card of the past sixty five years.
It was a raw copy that Heritage brought to the National to get graded is what I was told. They were trying to get 1.3 or 1.5 million for it. The collector said they drove it there something like 11 hours. Not sure of the origin but as you can see from the scan it is a pack fresh looking example.
I am not certain if the person who bought the Mantle wants to be outed so I am not going to be the one to due so. That said I have seen a picture of the card and it is spectacular.
There were rumblings on this board about a sale over 3 million months ago and after speaking to a few people I believe there have been two.
On the CU board five years ago I stated I thought a 10 would easily bring 3 million. To the right buyer I bet that number is north of 10 and it wouldn't necessarily end up in a baseball card collectors hands. My thesis has always been a hedge fund manager or private equity guy who wants to showcase it on display in their Manhattan penthouse in a glass case. Talk about a conversation piece. One of only three cards to ever achieve the top grade of the most famous baseball card of the past sixty five years.
I edited my post above. Said it was/could be traced back to Al Rosen's find in 86?
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/sports/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-baseball-card-tops-11m-au/ntBKr/
The 3.4mil card, I could find no info on, so, more than likely, it was a private sale.
Dpeck100
11-19-2016, 03:12 PM
I edited my post above. Said it was/could be traced back to Al Rosen's find in 86?
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/sports/baseball/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-baseball-card-tops-11m-au/ntBKr/
The 3.4mil card, I could find no info on, so, more than likely, it was a private sale.
Thanks for posting that link.
Yes it was a private sale. There are a lot of high dollar items that change hands in private. It is fascinating to hear and learn about. Obviously this part of the market is out of reach for most collectors but even lower priced items that are rare change hands frequently at prices that would shock those that follow public auctions.
Thanks for posting that link.
Yes it was a private sale. There are a lot of high dollar items that change hands in private. It is fascinating to hear and learn about. Obviously this part of the market is out of reach for most collectors but even lower priced items that are rare change hands frequently at prices that would shock those that follow public auctions.
No doubt.
1952boyntoncollector
11-19-2016, 04:28 PM
Thanks for posting that link.
Yes it was a private sale. There are a lot of high dollar items that change hands in private. It is fascinating to hear and learn about. Obviously this part of the market is out of reach for most collectors but even lower priced items that are rare change hands frequently at prices that would shock those that follow public auctions.
Well i would imagine if a buyer approaches a seller who was not actively trying to sell a card the only way a buyer gets it is to pay much more than 'market'
almost like making an offer on a house to someone who wasnt' selling it..most of us have a 'make me move' offer we would take...which certainly would be a lot more than 'market'
KendallCat
11-20-2016, 10:37 AM
I think we are seeing an era where very few new submissions are coming to market with high end cards like Mantle's, Aaron's, Clemente's... so premium prices are being paid for centered examples. Within a grade like PSA 7 or PSA 8 there is such a large range of factors like centering, eye appeal, corners, color, focus... prices can vary dramatically.
I also think the market from May-August experienced some exuberance and manipulation with certain rookie cards so people are leery of getting back into those cards and cards they spent $30k on which are now $15k. Think about the persons who bought the Goodwin Clemente PSA 8 examples for $146k and $150k in June/July, and now they are back to the $50k range. Same with the Koufax PSA 8 and Rose PSA 8 which are both trading at much lower prices now versus June/July.
When all this happened I think people decided to stick with what they know and have poured money back into Mantle cards which are about as sure of a bet in the market as anything.
I think we are seeing an era where very few new submissions are coming to market with high end cards like Mantle's, Aaron's, Clemente's... so premium prices are being paid for centered examples. Within a grade like PSA 7 or PSA 8 there is such a large range of factors like centering, eye appeal, corners, color, focus... prices can vary dramatically.
I also think the market from May-August experienced some exuberance and manipulation with certain rookie cards so people are leery of getting back into those cards and cards they spent $30k on which are now $15k. Think about the persons who bought the Goodwin Clemente PSA 8 examples for $146k and $150k in June/July, and now they are back to the $50k range. Same with the Koufax PSA 8 and Rose PSA 8 which are both trading at much lower prices now versus June/July.
When all this happened I think people decided to stick with what they know and have poured money back into Mantle cards which are about as sure of a bet in the market as anything.
That is definitely the case, imo, too. I have followed many many cards and have noticed that as well. Some big money is definitely gone and if sellers/consignors think they are going to get the same money as what summer cards sold for, their sadly mistaken.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-123-Sandy-Koufax-HOF-RC-Rookie-PSA-8-NM-MT-Beautiful-Card-/252589005745?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=NC2bWe7%252Bt6JO6OSQgfQojLIHmiQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Shoebox
11-20-2016, 03:28 PM
The hyperfocus on centering is perplexing to me. The SGC card is better centered but I find every other aspect of the PSA card superior. If priced equally I would choose that card every time. Whether I would pay the exponentially higher price the flip would command is another issue and a large reason I am happy to stick with collectors grade cards.
DBesse27
11-21-2016, 10:12 AM
The hyperfocus on centering is perplexing to me. The SGC card is better centered but I find every other aspect of the PSA card superior. If priced equally I would choose that card every time.
Agreed. Centering isn't the end all, be all for me. In fact, it's not Very high at all on my priority list. Corners and lack of tilt are the first things I look at. Agree with boynton that I never thought about centering for even a split second when I was a kid.
MattyC
11-21-2016, 10:41 AM
Interesting how we all collect, and yet in so many different ways.
When I was a kid, I would immediately toss all severely OC, tilted, and miscut cards, or ones that were super blurry. Image clarity and centering were always huge for me, even then.
I always viewed corner wear as something intended, due to handling of the card by kids, whereas the card was always intended to be framed evenly and to have a focused picture. My eye was always drawn to the center of the card, as opposed to the corners. And part of what draws the eye to the central image is the intended centering.
As I got older, I would search for a card on ebay and was struck by how few, and in some cases none at all, were perfectly centered. Seeing that this aspect was rare added a new appreciation for it and makes the hunt fun. But again this is just one of myriad ways to view and collect cards.
1952boyntoncollector
11-21-2016, 10:57 AM
Interesting how we all collect, and yet in so many different ways.
When I was a kid, I would immediately toss all severely OC, tilted, and miscut cards, or ones that were super blurry. Image clarity and centering were always huge for me, even then.
I always viewed corner wear as something intended, due to handling of the card by kids, whereas the card was always intended to be framed evenly and to have a focused picture. My eye was always drawn to the center of the card, as opposed to the corners. And part of what draws the eye to the central image is the intended centering.
As I got older, I would search for a card on ebay and was struck by how few, and in some cases none at all, were perfectly centered. Seeing that this aspect was rare added a new appreciation for it and makes the hunt fun. But again this is just one of myriad ways to view and collect cards.
finding cards with nice corners is quite a challenge as well...always one banged up corner..
MattyC
11-21-2016, 11:26 AM
Yes, I have vivid memories of trying to make a trade with my cousin for a 1987 Donruss Mike Greenwell. He had several of them, but there was a corner touch on each one that bugged me. I can only imagine what the kids in 1971 went through.
Peter_Spaeth
11-21-2016, 12:10 PM
As kids collecting in the late 60s and early 70s, my brother and I came into tons of 50s and early 60s cards from various sources, most of which of course were less than pristine. In those days I didn't even notice centering, but corner wear really bothered me (early sign of OCD I think). In fact, sometimes I would snip the corners of the star cards using the little scissors on my Swiss Army pocket knife lol. My mom eventually threw them all out anyway so I don't have to live to regret that I destroyed their value.
orly57
11-21-2016, 12:17 PM
Interesting how we all collect, and yet in so many different ways.
When I was a kid, I would immediately toss all severely OC, tilted, and miscut cards, or ones that were super blurry. Image clarity and centering were always huge for me, even then.
I always viewed corner wear as something intended, due to handling of the card by kids, whereas the card was always intended to be framed evenly and to have a focused picture. My eye was always drawn to the center of the card, as opposed to the corners. And part of what draws the eye to the central image is the intended centering.
As I got older, I would search for a card on ebay and was struck by how few, and in some cases none at all, were perfectly centered. Seeing that this aspect was rare added a new appreciation for it and makes the hunt fun. But again this is just one of myriad ways to view and collect cards.
I think you said it better than I could. We as collectors are all a bit OCD, but some things bother us more than others. I can live with creases and corner wear, but bad centering is something I cant live with
MikeGarcia
11-21-2016, 12:31 PM
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1957TOPPSFREAKS_NEW.JPGI think you said it better than I could. We as collectors are all a bit OCD, but some things bother us more than others. I can live with creases and corner wear, but bad centering is something I cant live with
...there are certain members on this forum who will inquire of my new widow , " by the way , did he leave you a Dick Gernert by any chance.."...
..
DBesse27
11-21-2016, 01:52 PM
Interesting how we all collect, and yet in so many different ways.
When I was a kid, I would immediately toss all severely OC, tilted, and miscut cards, or ones that were super blurry. Image clarity and centering were always huge for me, even then.
I always viewed corner wear as something intended, due to handling of the card by kids, whereas the card was always intended to be framed evenly and to have a focused picture. My eye was always drawn to the center of the card, as opposed to the corners. And part of what draws the eye to the central image is the intended centering.
As I got older, I would search for a card on ebay and was struck by how few, and in some cases none at all, were perfectly centered. Seeing that this aspect was rare added a new appreciation for it and makes the hunt fun. But again this is just one of myriad ways to view and collect cards.
Hi Matty, you and I have had this discussion before. I understand your perspective and I respect it, but here's the counter argument: cards may come off the press as OC or even miscut, but they don't come off the press with rounded corners. Some of us are looking for cards that are as "fresh" as possible.
ALR-bishop
11-21-2016, 04:26 PM
As someone who collects full set runs and thus large volumes of cards, I tend to be in Dan's camp. If I was collecting just some players or some sets I might worry more about centering and perfect cards.
rats60
11-21-2016, 04:35 PM
Hi Matty, you and I have had this discussion before. I understand your perspective and I respect it, but here's the counter argument: cards may come off the press as OC or even miscut, but they don't come off the press with rounded corners. Some of us are looking for cards that are as "fresh" as possible.
I agree with this. I would rather have a card that was a little off centered, but new condition, like the PSA card than a card that is perfectly centered but damaged by a previous owner. Corner wear is something that I want to avoid and creases, writing, etc. are a strict no.
bnorth
11-21-2016, 05:04 PM
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1957TOPPSFREAKS_NEW.JPG
...there are certain members on this forum who will inquire of my new widow , " by the way , did he leave you a Dick Gernert by any chance.."...
..
As someone that does not care about centering and would prefer a card so off center it shows some of another card, those are all my kind of cards. Yes please leave contact info so I can ask about the Dick Gernert card many many years from now.:) I really love those.
Hi Matty, you and I have had this discussion before. I understand your perspective and I respect it, but here's the counter argument: cards may come off the press as OC or even miscut, but they don't come off the press with rounded corners. Some of us are looking for cards that are as "fresh" as possible.
I don't recall if I was part of that thread or not, but I also said exactly the same thing in a post.
I just purchased these 2 cards about 15 minutes ago. Cards look in excellent shape to me and the centering doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as creases (#1) and dinged corners (#2) do. :)
GregC
11-22-2016, 11:11 AM
I'd happily take either of those two originally posted Mantles. I am more on the centering side of the fence and can overlook corners or creases. I look at my cards as little pieces of art and no one frames fine art off to the left/right/top/bottom!
MikeGarcia
11-22-2016, 11:22 AM
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1952NIPPY_NEW.JPGI don't recall if I was part of that thread or not, but I also said exactly the same thing in a post.
I just purchased these 2 cards about 15 minutes ago. Cards look in excellent shape to me and the centering doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as creases (#1) and dinged corners (#2) do. :)
...The crew in the cutting department at Topps didn't like my Nippy Jones either...
...
As someone who collects full set runs and thus large volumes of cards, I tend to be in Dan's camp. If I was collecting just some players or some sets I might worry more about centering and perfect cards.
And that is how collectors are collecting nowadays, from what I can tell. If a set collector comes to my table at a show I know he isn't looking for my centered stuff as much as "can I knock a card or two off of his want list". On the other hand the guys wanting to collect and "invest" and have fun....and not pursue full sets, want better centering, focus etc....
...The crew in the cutting department at Topps didn't like my Nippy Jones either...
...
I wonder what he did or said to them to upset them like that? :D
Looking forward to receiving these 2 cards, as, aside from the centering, they look to be in really nice shape to me.
savedfrommyspokes
11-22-2016, 07:20 PM
If a lower end card is my only choice due to cost, my choice on a higher priced/lower end card would be one with nicely formed corners, some honest wear, reasonable centering, minimal creasing versus a copy of a card with corner wear/rounding, more obvious creasing, and/or some sort of "intentional" front damage.
For these reasons, I prefer the left copy. The centering is consistent between these two copies, but the corner wear is far less obvious and the creasing is less noticeable on the left copy. The left copy's major flaw is the honest front surface wear which would be my preference over the right copy's rounding on corners and what appears in the scan to be light (pencil) marks to the left of Mantle's face.
However, I appear to be in the minority as to what qualities are more appealing (corner wear versus front surface wear), as the copy on the right sold for almost $5k more than the copy on the left.
bnorth
11-22-2016, 07:39 PM
If a lower end card is my only choice due to cost, my choice on a higher priced/lower end card would be one with nicely formed corners, some honest wear, reasonable centering, minimal creasing versus a copy of a card with corner wear/rounding, more obvious creasing, and/or some sort of "intentional" front damage.
For these reasons, I prefer the left copy. The centering is consistent between these two copies, but the corner wear is far less obvious and the creasing is less noticeable on the left copy. The left copy's major flaw is the honest front surface wear which would be my preference over the right copy's rounding on corners and what appears in the scan to be light (pencil) marks to the left of Mantle's face.
However, I appear to be in the minority as to what qualities are more appealing (corner wear versus front surface wear), as the copy on the right sold for almost $5k more than the copy on the left.
Probably has more to do with the location of the surface wear. I don't mind surface wear or creases unless they are on the players face like the card on the left. I don't care how nice the rest of the card is, if the face area has issues I pass.
If a lower end card is my only choice due to cost, my choice on a higher priced/lower end card would be one with nicely formed corners, some honest wear, reasonable centering, minimal creasing versus a copy of a card with corner wear/rounding, more obvious creasing, and/or some sort of "intentional" front damage.
For these reasons, I prefer the left copy. The centering is consistent between these two copies, but the corner wear is far less obvious and the creasing is less noticeable on the left copy. The left copy's major flaw is the honest front surface wear which would be my preference over the right copy's rounding on corners and what appears in the scan to be light (pencil) marks to the left of Mantle's face.
However, I appear to be in the minority as to what qualities are more appealing (corner wear versus front surface wear), as the copy on the right sold for almost $5k more than the copy on the left.
We are all different, thankfully, so I would take the card on the right as it presents much better, imo, than the card on the left.
That surface wear is as bad as a bad crease, imo, especially where it is on the card.
Creases, that don't interfere with the portrait, like in the corners, etc are far less bothersome than creases that cross the face/body.
brian1961
11-23-2016, 11:05 AM
Probably has more to do with the location of the surface wear. I don't mind surface wear or creases unless they are on the players face like the card on the left. I don't care how nice the rest of the card is, if the face area has issues I pass.
I have always seen a card the way Ben does. These are picture cards, and the heart of a card is the face of the player. A collector may reassure themselves all day long about how great the centering is, or how you could draw blood with the sharp corners, or no creases, or brilliant color or focus of the picture. Notwithstanding, even if everything else is perfect, if there are problems on Mickey's face, the card is a disgrace, period. ---Brian Powell
MattyC
11-23-2016, 11:24 AM
If there are problems on Mickey's face, the card is a disgrace]. ---Brian Powell
I'll buy a coffee mug or T-shirt with that on it. Who's printing'em up?
brian1961
11-23-2016, 12:03 PM
I'll buy a coffee mug or T-shirt with that on it. Who's printing'em up?
I'll take that as a compliment, my friend. By the by, I love your new avatar photo of Mickey clouting a home run. Perfect! ---Brian Powell
jchcollins
11-23-2016, 01:07 PM
A friend (who doesn't collect cards) sent this story to me earlier this week and the first thing I said was "Wow, that is some tilt and o/c for an 8.5!" Not much room to talk because I can't afford a PSA 1 '52 #311, but yeah. I'd much rather have a centered card in a lower grade that is still presentable than a card that everyone would immediately say, "That's perfect, EXCEPT for..."
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