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paul
11-07-2016, 05:33 PM
The Hall of Fame has announced this year's old timers' ballot, though this is a "modern era" election, so they are not really old timers. Here is the list:

The 10 candidates on the Today’s Game Era Committee ballot are: Albert Belle, Will Clark, Davey Johnson, Orel Hershiser, Mark McGwire, Lou Piniella, John Schuerholz, Bud Selig, George Steinbrenner and Harold Baines. Any candidate who receives votes on at least 75 percent of all ballots cast will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2017 on July 30.

I vote for no one.

gemmint77
11-07-2016, 05:39 PM
I agree, none of these folks should be in the Hall.

trdcrdkid
11-07-2016, 05:39 PM
What an underwhelming group. Who picks these?

perezfan
11-07-2016, 05:40 PM
Agree on no one.

From that era, I would've thought that Steve Garvey or Fred McGriff would be better choices than some of those guys.

insidethewrapper
11-07-2016, 05:45 PM
This isn't April Fools Day is it ? I could see Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Jack Morris, Mickey Lolich etc. If these guys played in New York they would already be in the HOF.

HOF Auto Rookies
11-07-2016, 05:46 PM
Surprised no one thinks Selig or Steinbrenner.

Stull, pretty weak "class".

jhs5120
11-07-2016, 05:47 PM
I think history will be kind to George Steinbrenner, but it may take another 20-30 years.

packs
11-07-2016, 05:48 PM
My votes go to Steinbrenner and Belle.

trdcrdkid
11-07-2016, 05:54 PM
I suppose there's a case to be made for Steinbrenner, but I think there's a better case for Schuerholz, especially with Bobby Cox going in a couple of years ago. I can't muster any enthusiasm for Selig, and it's hard to imagine who his hard-core supporters would be, unless it's the same people who voted in Bowie Kuhn.

conor912
11-07-2016, 06:00 PM
What a joke. The HOF supposed to be the best of the best, not the best of the pretty good. Of all the borderline guys, not one of these guys has ever crossed my mind.

Exhibitman
11-07-2016, 06:05 PM
Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.

Klrdds
11-07-2016, 06:20 PM
Also see this thread from the Autograph Forum side posted in early October when the Today"s Game ballot was released
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=229453&highlight=veterans+committee

h2oya311
11-07-2016, 06:20 PM
Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.

+1

As for players, how did they come up with Belle and Baines? Should have been more like Murphy and Raines...

FourStrikes
11-07-2016, 06:39 PM
Schuerholz and Steinbrenner are worthy admittees:

Schuerholz's GM career lasted from 1982-2007. His teams won two World Series, 6 pennants, and 15 division titles. Pretty solid for an executive career across two teams and two leagues.

Steinbrenner...what can you say about The Boss. During Steinbrenner's reign the Yankees won 7 World Series and 11 pennants. He was the most famous, and infamous, team owner of the postwar era. His only realistic comparisons were O'Malley and Veeck, and perhaps Charlie O had his tenure been longer.

nailed it.

Rich Klein
11-07-2016, 06:42 PM
+1

As for players, how did they come up with Belle and Baines? Should have been more like Murphy and Raines...

I believe Raines is still on the ballot and therefore not eligible for this 2nd chance ballot. The odds are pretty good he will be enshrined by the writers in 2017

Rich

clydepepper
11-07-2016, 06:52 PM
I definitely think Bud Selig should go in.

Now, before you get all hyped up, think about the positive (business-wise if no other way) changes he implemented.

MLB is vastly better than it was before Bud Selig. IMHO

rats60
11-07-2016, 08:07 PM
What a joke. The HOF supposed to be the best of the best, not the best of the pretty good. Of all the borderline guys, not one of these guys has ever crossed my mind.

Agree with this. Schuerholz is the only one on this list that even deserves consideration. There is no need to water down the HOF any more. As for those throwing out Trammell, Whitaker, Garvey, Murphy, etc. those guys are all modern era. This is for 1988 to present which is mostly going to be steroid users and nonplayers. This committee makes little sense at this point.

slidekellyslide
11-07-2016, 08:18 PM
I definitely think Bud Selig should go in.

Now, before you get all hyped up, think about the positive (business-wise if no other way) changes he implemented.

MLB is vastly better than it was before Bud Selig. IMHO

I think he ignored the obvious PED use for far too long to ever go in IMO.

Exhibitman
11-07-2016, 08:28 PM
Personally, I'd like to see more recognition for non-players who contribute to the game. Not just broadcasters and managers. For example, Marvin Miller absolutely is integral to the story of the game and should be installed in the HOF ASAP.

I'd also like to see Sy Berger and Jefferson Burdick in there!

BearBailey
11-07-2016, 09:01 PM
I would think selig would be a lock, can't imagine anyone else getting close?

dealme
11-07-2016, 09:30 PM
I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.

I am of the opinion that the Hall is watered down as it is, and I don't grasp the concept that because a candidate only has X years left on the ballot, he's somehow more worthy of inclusion. In my opinion, Raines falls into this category. He was certainly a good ballplayer, but is he now more worthy of induction simply because he's about to drop off of the ballot? I also thought that Ron Santo's induction was a slap in the face (to Santo). It's as if the voters felt that since he had passed, he somehow became more worthy of induction.

I think that if there is any question as to whether a player should be in the Hall (be it his on-field performance, PEDs, criminal record, etc.), then he probably shouldn't be in the Hall. The only way this group should get into the Hall is the same way that most of us do: buy a ticket. :D

JollyElm
11-07-2016, 09:49 PM
God, if that's the list of potential candidates, why don't they just enshrine everybody who has ever played the game and just be done with it.

Tao_Moko
11-07-2016, 09:55 PM
I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.

I am of the opinion that the Hall is watered down as it is, and I don't grasp the concept that because a candidate only has X years left on the ballot, he's somehow more worthy of inclusion. In my opinion, Raines falls into this category. He was certainly a good ballplayer, but is he now more worthy of induction simply because he's about to drop off of the ballot? I also thought that Ron Santo's induction was a slap in the face (to Santo). It's as if the voters felt that since he had passed, he somehow became more worthy of induction.

I think that if there is any question as to whether a player should be in the Hall (be it his on-field performance, PEDs, criminal record, etc.), then he probably shouldn't be in the Hall. The only way this group should get into the Hall is the same way that most of us do: buy a ticket. :D

Santo's induction was a sad moment for me because, like you say, he apparently got more of a nod after death and nobody would have been more grateful than Ron to have been part of that celebration. Selig is knocked out for me based on his poor handling of ped's early on and also not fond of using the public to subsidize stadiums that no longer have affordable ticket pricing. However, he's been much better than most of his predecessors. The players on this ballet are in no way contenders in my opinion. I would like to see the HOF get back on a more elite track. *I'm never fond of armchair generals talking to me about their opinion of war/combat as there is only one way to truly have an opinion on it. Not that sports is anything comparable, but I do rely on the veterans committee to guide my opinion since I've never been more than a baseball spectator.

kmac32
11-07-2016, 09:56 PM
Maybe Steinbrenner

conor912
11-07-2016, 09:56 PM
Personally, I'd like to see more recognition for non-players who contribute to the game. Not just broadcasters and managers. For example, Marvin Miller absolutely is integral to the story of the game and should be installed in the HOF ASAP.

I'd also like to see Sy Berger and Jefferson Burdick in there!

Berger I could get behind. Burdick not so much, but there's no way in hell I'm praising the guy responsible for the $400 box seat.

slidekellyslide
11-07-2016, 10:19 PM
The hall of fame is not watered down in my opinion. They've been playing major league ball for 147 years now and 18,918 men have played in the major leagues. There are only 217 major leaguers in the hall of fame. One out of 87.

It's really hard to get into the major leagues. It's really hard to succeed in the major leagues, and it's really, really hard to excel over a career in the major leagues. When people say players like Tim Raines do not belong in the hall of fame it boggles my mind.

KingFisk
11-07-2016, 10:27 PM
The hall of fame is not watered down in my opinion. They've been playing major league ball for 147 years now and 18,918 men have played in the major leagues. There are only 217 major leaguers in the hall of fame. One out of 87.

It's really hard to get into the major leagues. It's really hard to succeed in the major leagues, and it's really, really hard to excel over a career in the major leagues. When people say players like Tim Raines do not belong in the hall of fame it boggles my mind.

Agreed, with a caveat. It's safe to say the number of inductees is fine. It's just that a bunch of guys who are in shouldn't be, and a bunch of guys that should be aren't in.

z28jd
11-07-2016, 10:46 PM
Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.

pclpads
11-07-2016, 10:48 PM
Bud Lite? That's a joke, right? :eek:

clydepepper
11-07-2016, 11:08 PM
I think he ignored the obvious PED use for far too long to ever go in IMO.


We ALL did, Dan. And we all enjoyed the McGwire-to-Sosa-to-McGwire HR chase!

Financially, it was good for the game - though it is a good thing that it is over or, at least, not nearly so prevalent thanks in no small part to the new testing system that Selig helped put in place.


c

earlywynnfan
11-07-2016, 11:15 PM
I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

clydepepper
11-07-2016, 11:23 PM
I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

Albert Belle was a later version of Richie Allen - many parallels.


c

mrmopar
11-07-2016, 11:32 PM
I believe Garvey is in a different grouping than McGriff, but McGriff would fit that group for sure.

Agree on no one.

From that era, I would've thought that Steve Garvey or Fred McGriff would be better choices than some of those guys.

slidekellyslide
11-07-2016, 11:50 PM
Agreed, with a caveat. It's safe to say the number of inductees is fine. It's just that a bunch of guys who are in shouldn't be, and a bunch of guys that should be aren't in.

I won't argue that. The Veterans Committee is at fault for most of that.

rats60
11-08-2016, 12:25 AM
I really think Selig will get in, if not this year, eventually. Steroids or not, baseball grew more during his era than any other.

Belle was the scariest hitter of the 90's, but his career was too short. Or, to put it another way, his persona was so negative that voters won't overlook how short it was.

Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.

Griffins
11-08-2016, 01:42 AM
Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.


Spot on.

Tabe
11-08-2016, 02:41 AM
Albert Belle belongs in. .295/40/130 - that's Albert every 162 games. That's almost on the level of Ruth. He played the same number of seasons as Kirby Puckett and was still an excellent hitter when he retired due to injury. The Hall says you gotta have 10 years to qualify. Albert has that. His numbers are certainly good enough. He belongs.

Louieman
11-08-2016, 03:10 AM
Unequivocally and unabashedly NO for Selig. To me there's nothing admirable or impressive about a guy who makes a bunch of rich guys richer. And while he spent that time doing that, steroids run through the sport like wildfire, a scrimmage now affects the world series, the game doesn't modernize one bit, doesn't carve out a national market, and worst of all Tim McCarver's "announcing skills" become hall of fame worthy on his watch. And as for the A's stadium debacle...cue the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark while Bud tells you he's got "top men" working on it..."top....men"

Jim65
11-08-2016, 05:21 AM
The only player I would consider is Belle, personality aside, he was a better player than some already there like Andre Dawson and Jim Rice.

Steinbrenner was a criminal, twice suspended by MLB, if he ever makes it, it would be a friggin joke.

clydepepper
11-08-2016, 06:43 AM
Not because of anything that Selig did. From the cancelled World Series, to Steroids to the All Star game tie to making the All Star game count for World Series home field. His time on the job was a disaster.

Baseball has been declining in popularity over the last 25 years. Outside of the World Series, televised games are not even on the major networks anymore, but on niche cable channels. TV viewership is way down. Even with the Cubs winning the World Series, and huge game 7 viewership, average viewership was about half of what it was for the 1978 World Series and behind almost every year in the 80s and 90s. Viewership from 2008-15 was a disaster. I guess if Selig's job was to make owners money while damaging the game, he was successful, but that isn't hof worthy in my opinion.



Any opinion worth having is worth voicing...bravo

earlywynnfan
11-08-2016, 08:12 AM
I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

I paid a LOT of attention to baseball in the 90's, with the Tribe finally being good. With the exception of Rick Reilly's Sosa-chasing article, virtually NOBODY was complaining. Everybody could see it, but nobody complained. How many of you guys went to games? How many took up sides and cheered for McGwire or Sosa? Or Bonds or Clemens??

For about a decade in the 2000's, the big beat writer for Cleveland's newspaper would absolutely rail against steroids. Yet I read him every day in 1998, and he never said a word!! No writers I read did. And these people were in the clubhouses, were constantly around the players. I send this guy emails commending him on his firm stance 10 years after the fact, but never got a reply.

Selig and Fehr were the point people of the steroid era, sure, but anyone in and around baseball at the time was involved. If any of us who went to games, cheered the home runs, is calling out Selig now, I say we're hypocrites.

packs
11-08-2016, 09:41 AM
I really don't understand the Steinbrenner hate. Some of you guys collect Comiskey, how can you hate Steinbrenner and call him a criminal but collect Comiskey? The same goes for Tom Yawkey. The guy actively worked against integrating his team, so much so that they were the last team to integrate. He's in though, isn't he?

bxb
11-08-2016, 09:48 AM
The committee votes December 5th.

Anyone know who's on the committee?

MartyFromCANADA
11-08-2016, 09:55 AM
I am a die hard Blue Jay fan, and have a ferocious hatred of the Yankees, but, Mr. Steinbrenner is a HOFer. No Doubt.

z28jd
11-08-2016, 09:59 AM
I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?


For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

Yoda
11-08-2016, 11:06 AM
Not "lighthearted" Albert Belle? I am surprised he isn't in jail..

basesareempty
11-08-2016, 11:23 AM
Harold Baines


Batting average
.289

Hits
2,866

Home runs
384

Runs batted in
1,628

Solid stats and borderline HOF. Knee injuries early in his career probably cost him 3000 hits which would have gotten him in.

Louieman
11-08-2016, 11:33 AM
Well I can't speak on behalf of others but my dislike for used car salesman Bud Selig has been very consistent since he started. But I was a kid in the 90s...let me sift through my mom's garage and see if I have any fingerpainting or personal narratives that conveyed the message....

packs
11-08-2016, 11:51 AM
Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.

bbcard1
11-08-2016, 12:05 PM
I would not be aghast if most of those guys would get in. I would not be offended if not. Davey Johnson and Pinella are sort of a Red Schoendienst type, though I think lesser, who had some accomplishments as both players and managers. Baines and Belle fit fine statistically. If your bottom measuring stick is Jim Bottomley and High Pockets Kelly, maybe there's a place for Clark...McGwire defined an era that was both glorious and tragic... I would be happy if here was not an executive in the hall. It is of no interest to me.

basesareempty
11-08-2016, 12:19 PM
Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.

bigtrain
11-08-2016, 12:21 PM
I've never understood why the HOF and its voters seem to feel a need to vote people in every year. If there wasn't an induction every year, it would be more of an event in the years that there was.
:D

I think that what most people don't realize is that while the Hall of Fame is a national institution, it is run by local people. Cooperstown is mostly small businesses that make all their money in about four months of the year. Induction is a very big deal to the locals. A year without a player being inducted is bad for the local economy. So while there have been years without inductions, I think the rules have been changed to make that less likely.

scotgreb
11-08-2016, 12:56 PM
Larry - I don't believe it has been announced yet . . .

The Today’s Game Era ballot was determined this fall by the Historical Overview Committee, comprised of 11 veteran historians: Bob Elliott (Toronto Sun); Jim Henneman (formerly Baltimore Sun); Rick Hummel (St. Louis Post-Dispatch); Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau); Bill Madden (formerly New York Daily News); Jack O’Connell (BBWAA); Jim Reeves (formerly Fort Worth Star-Telegram); Tracy Ringolsby (MLB.com); Glenn Schwarz (formerly San Francisco Chronicle); Dave van Dyck (Chicago Tribune); and Mark Whicker (Los Angeles News Group).

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era ballot will be announced later this fall. The Today’s Game Era electorate will meet to discuss and review the candidacies of the 10 finalists as part of Baseball’s Winter Meetings, Dec. 4-5 in the Washington, D.C. area.

clydepepper
11-08-2016, 02:33 PM
Edgar Martinez


Batting average
.312

Hits
2,247

Home runs
309

Runs batted in
1,261

I know over the years that people have thought Martinez should get in. If that ever happens then Baines needs to be in as well. Just saying.



I disagree. Baines, as good a player as he was, was just good peaking at very good. He played a long time and his career numbers are inflated, but do not point to any particular peak period during which he was considered elite.

I'm not a big advocate of Edgar either, but he is a noticeable step up from Baines.


-

IMO

Stampsfan
11-08-2016, 02:46 PM
What an underwhelming group. Who picks these?

Bud Selig.


Something I think should be recognized re: Selig is how much harder he made it for regular people to attend a game as a family. Under his watch 19 publicly funded stadiums were built. It now costs an average of $77 for 2 people to attend a game. In 1993 it cost a family of 4 $91 to attend a game.

There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

ASpaceman
11-08-2016, 02:55 PM
Belle & Schuerholz.

Belle is criminally underrated.

earlywynnfan
11-08-2016, 03:30 PM
For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

One flaw in your analogy is that my wife knew what was going on, the neighbors knew, the grandparents knew, and the CHILDREN knew it was wrong. And in the end, nobody got punished!

earlywynnfan
11-08-2016, 03:32 PM
Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.

tschock
11-08-2016, 03:57 PM
Would never vote in Selig or Steinbrenner. Selig was the head of baseball during the steroid era when everyone knew what was going on and he let it go, then took zero blame for it. The guy in charge of the players who don't get in because of steroids is supposed to be rewarded for letting it happen? Hell no. He made a fortune off those players because he let it go as long as possible.

Steinbrenner shouldn't even be on the ballot. He was suspended from baseball for two years in 1974. He was banned permanently in 1990. He was also an owner during the steroid era, who happily paid steroid users extra money for their performance.

When the owners took none of the blame for that era, that was a cowardly move on their part. Everyone outside of baseball knew what was going on, do you really think any of the owners had no idea? They knew, they paid the players extra and they made a ton extra for themselves, then they threw the players under the bus and history has been way too kind to them.

It would be ridiculous to put the leader of the steroid era and an owner from that era with a two-year suspension and permanent ban on his record, in the Hall of Fame. It would make a mockery of common sense.

This.

packs
11-08-2016, 03:58 PM
Bud Selig.


There might be one or two other items in our society that have doubled in price over the last 23 years.

You don't see a correlation between building huge overpriced stadiums and overpriced ticket prices since the building of those stadiums? We're not talking about inflation.

z28jd
11-08-2016, 04:17 PM
What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?


You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

clydepepper
11-08-2016, 04:47 PM
Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.



Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

glchen
11-08-2016, 05:13 PM
Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

David Justice

GasHouseGang
11-08-2016, 05:23 PM
I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

earlywynnfan
11-08-2016, 05:29 PM
You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

I have NEVER heard anybody refer to baseball owners and leadership as "heroes" for "cleaning up baseball." Every person I've heard of who had half a brain and a smidge of baseball knowledge feels the whole thing was botched from the beginning and more "CYA" than actually caring about the sport or players' health. And yes, I include Bud in that.

As for "100% of the blame," I agree that that may be true from some angles, and I stated in the beginning I feel that blame should be spread out among the rulers, players, media, and fans. However, I adamantly believe that I lay the majority of the blame for steroid use on the heads of the players who took the steroids.

How about a more direct analogy: for several years, your government, at the behest of the banking industry, relaxed regulations to the point of there seemingly not being any. Lo and behold, the financial geniuses do all kinds of shady, crummy deals and what happens? The biggest recession in 80 years. Many people blamed the banks and investment companies (many of us are still hoping some heads will roll,) but nobody condemns the government for their role. Why???

triwak
11-09-2016, 03:00 AM
I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

+1

Eric72
11-09-2016, 09:17 AM
Personally, I hope McGwire makes it into the HOF. I know there are those who would keep him out because of PEDs, and I respect that. However, he helped to bring baseball back during the late 1990s and did so in dramatic fashion.

I realize there was an entire generation of players that (more often than not) broke the rules. I'm just not as willing to keep all of them out of the hall as others.

packs
11-09-2016, 11:34 AM
McGwire was not a great player. He had great seasons while he was cheating. He had no discernible natural level of talent to look at (like say Bonds did) because he is known to have cheated basically since he entered the league. He is not a HOFer.

clydepepper
11-09-2016, 12:05 PM
McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie and I believe those were legit.

He had a great swing, but not the 16-inch forearms that were such red flag later on.

He was, however, very much a 'one-trick pony' as apposed to a five-tool player and the obvious years where he did cheat constitute the only portion of his career that compares favorably to that first year.
-

packs
11-09-2016, 12:15 PM
Well let's not forget who was on that team his first season: Jose Canseco.

dealme
11-09-2016, 07:53 PM
I think that what most people don't realize is that while the Hall of Fame is a national institution, it is run by local people. Cooperstown is mostly small businesses that make all their money in about four months of the year. Induction is a very big deal to the locals. A year without a player being inducted is bad for the local economy. So while there have been years without inductions, I think the rules have been changed to make that less likely.


This is certainly an angle I hadn't really considered in my first post. The handful of times I've been to Cooperstown were not during induction weekend, and probably would be considered "off" times (although they were during the baseball season). I didn't think about economic impact. It would be interesting to look at sales numbers for induction years versus years without an induction. All of that being said, it seems that if people are being inducted during a given year because an induction is good for the local economy, then it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog.

Cheers,
Mark

rats60
11-09-2016, 08:35 PM
McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie and I believe those were legit.

He had a great swing, but not the 16-inch forearms that were such red flag later on.

He was, however, very much a 'one-trick pony' as apposed to a five-tool player and the obvious years where he did cheat constitute the only portion of his career that compares favorably to that first year.
-

I believe McGwire was on steroids when he was at USC when he led the nation and set the school record with 32 HR his last year there. 49 HRs as a rookie was as much out of place as his 70 HRs in 1998. Unlike Bonds who was skinny with the Pirates, McGwire was always big.

Leon
11-15-2016, 08:06 PM
I believe McGwire was on steroids when he was at USC when he led the nation and set the school record with 32 HR his last year there. 49 HRs as a rookie was as much out of place as his 70 HRs in 1998. Unlike Bonds who was skinny with the Pirates, McGwire was always big.

There will always be asterisks around certain records.

esd10
11-16-2016, 10:15 AM
Most of these players and executives have no place in the hof let alone on the ballot where the immortals of Americas past time are inshrined.

packs
11-16-2016, 11:03 AM
I still don't understand how the HOF could put someone like Yawkey in and then Steinbrenner is met with criticism of his personality.

ejharrington
11-16-2016, 03:04 PM
McGuire needs to be in. He is a legend.

Louieman
11-16-2016, 04:23 PM
I think it's reasonable to say that not everyone who is currently in the hall of fame deserved it by the standards we have for hall of famers today. But instead of punishing them, I think we should just keep that standard from this point forward and not use past mistakes or past judgments of hall of famers as a litmus test for today's players