What do you consider rare post war

[MCoxon]

I may be duplicating a thread, but what do you consider rare population for a post war set, and what rare sets do you like for the combination of scarcity and card desirability?

I ask because I have a lot of base topps and bowman player runs but get really excited by the more oddball

For instance, 1954 Hank Aaron:
- 1954 Aaron Johnston cookies: 166 total in the PSA pop report
- 1954 Topps Hank Aaron: 3345

Or, Roberto Clemente:
- 1965 Macgregor Advisory Staff, PSA pop 17
- 1965 Topps, PSA pop 2400


What's your favorite scarcity / desirable issue? I personally love 1969 Nabisco Team Flakes (e.g., Pete Rose, population 56), 1959-1971 Bazookas, and 1971 Milk Duds.

[ValKehl]

Mike, I don't consider any of the issues you mentioned to be rare, but merely slightly scarce to scarce. For truly rare, I nominate:
- 1948 Gunther Beer Wash. Senators PCs
- 1949 Sunbeam/Pureta Sacramento Salons
- 1952 National Tea Bread Labels

[ALR-bishop]

I am not aware of any hobby recognized definition of those two terms but tend to agree with Val. As you said there was a recent thread on this. Post war post 80 is complicated by intentionally produced rare cards. For Topps post war pre 80 I would put these in the rare category

1955 Stamps
1961 Dice
1966 Punchnouts ( not 67)
1967 and 1968 Discs
1970 Cloth
1971 Rookie Artists Proofs
1972 Candy Lids
1980 Coins

Might add these
1967 Stand Ups
1968 3D ( not all subjects, but some)
1955 and 1956 baseball Hocus Focus ( if not all, some subjects)

[sflayank]

everything is rarer than topps and bowman regular issues
the pop report is meaningless on other issues

[brian1961]

I may be duplicating a thread, but what do you consider rare population for a post war set, and what rare sets do you like for the combination of scarcity and card desirability?

I ask because I have a lot of base topps and bowman player runs but get really excited by the more oddball

For instance, 1954 Hank Aaron:
- 1954 Aaron Johnston cookies: 166 total in the PSA pop report
- 1954 Topps Hank Aaron: 3345

Or, Roberto Clemente:
- 1965 Macgregor Advisory Staff, PSA pop 17
- 1965 Topps, PSA pop 2400


What's your favorite scarcity / desirable issue? I personally love 1969 Nabisco Team Flakes (e.g., Pete Rose, population 56), 1959-1971 Bazookas, and 1971 Milk Duds.

Hello, Mike. Thanks for posting a very interesting topic, to which those who take the time to respond will offer you all sorts of opinions and options. Personally, I never refer to non-mainstream as "oddball". There are oddball non-mainstream to be sure, but the name "oddball" has a connotation for nonentity, nondescript, a "lesser than" collectible, and obscure.

With the postwar regional / food issues, they are all over the map when it comes to attractiveness, obscure or popular, important and unimportant. I was aware of only one of the three Val mentioned. Just because something is rare does not mean very many people will care about it. It depends.

Recently, I wrote a book on the postwar regional / food issues, entitled NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. You will only find one chapter devoted to a Topps product, the 1959 and 1961 Bazooka baseball issues, one of those you mentioned as having a deep appreciation. Since you have the good taste to relish these sorts of items, I would highly recommend my book on a CD. PM me if you're interested.

Back to the OP, rarity may come in diverse ways. For instance, on the beautiful and elegant 1953-55 Stahl-Meyer Franks baseball cards, I asked long-time metropolitan New York dealer David Festberg about them. His short, terse reply was "they're around." To elaborate in a meaningful way, I would add this. Yes, they're around, but nearly all of them are around PSA 1 or PSA 1 with a dreaded qualifier, or Authentic. Low high grade commences at PSA 2. These cards are the quintessential condition rarity.

So I can deal with other things, I would add a definition from the much more advanced coin world. Ultra rare would dictate a population of five pieces or less. Recall my phrase, "it depends"? Suppose among those five, several look rather bedraggled, smashed, stained, creased to smithereens, with perhaps a pin hole, tack hole, or tape residue? A PSA -5 so to speak.

If it's rare and ugly, I don't care---to own it. You mention Johnston Cookies, made by the same folks who produced the aforementioned Stahl-Meyer Franks. Gorgeous cards, particularly the '53s and '55s. The over-sized Macgregor photos are terrific, especially if displayed with cards. Opposites attract in this instance. It's taken the hobby a generation to appreciate and get off the de-valuing of over-sized cards. A large gang of tunnel-visioned dim-wits could not understand how they would be valuable, along with Exhibits, sports coins, team-issue photos, et al. As a collector advances, sometimes his mind matures.

The PSA Master Set Registry considerably helped with a deeper appreciation for the non-gum items as well. To wit, as the serious, motivated registrants began hunting down the truly scarce and rare pieces, their perception, appreciation, and respect for those toughies began slow-cooking to their tastiest best, a la the precise place reserved for the prized pieces. Combined, of course, along with the premium prices they had to pay when they found one for sale, or had to keep raising the ante until the guy they found who had one would finally be willing to part with it. Money talks in many ways, but sometimes its takes a lot more money than previously thought to talk someone into letting go of a piece they likewise prize themselves. The combo of beauty, quality, and rarity do not come with a discount.

Gotta go. Hope this helps or at least stimulates the thread.

Best regards. Don't forget about my book on a CD if you're interested. It's not an exhaustive treatment, but a fine selection. Google the title and you'll find the press release written by then-SCD editor Tom Bartsch, who kindly included how-to-order details. ---Brian Powell

[rgpete]

1980 Prototype Coins @ 13 coins to exist

[Exhibitman]

1968 Atlantic Oil SPs: they were prize winners in a cash sweepstakes. I've seen two in 30+ years of collecting the set.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1968%20Atlantic%20Oil%20Osteen.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1968%20Atlantic%20Oil%20Davis%20AL%20SP_1.jpg

Some of the newspaper cut-out type cards are rare, like this 1960 version:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1960%20Herald%20Examiner%20Koufax%20Snider.jpg

Most rarities will be stadiana, picture packs, team issues and product premiums for local products.

1951 Hallicrafters
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1951%20Hallicrafters%20Rosen-Lemon.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Perforated%20Robinson-Cagney.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Exhibit%20Williams.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Rodine%20Baseball%20HOF%204.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1950%20Kiner%20photo.jpg

1954 KQV:
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1950s%20KQV%20Pie%20Traynor%20premium.jpg

1951 Hage's
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1951%20Hages%20Baker-Reese.jpg

1951 Fleet Wing Indians:
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1952%20Fleet%20Wing%20Indians%201.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1952%20Fleet%20Wing%20Indians%2011.jpg

[ALR-bishop]

Cool stuff, Adam

[sflayank]

one of 3 known leaders cleaners 2 white sox 1 a's
knickerbocker beer 1 of 4 known players mays antonelli rigney henrich
only 2 known yoo hoo with full tabs both berra
all rare but who cares? me any for sale?

[paul]

Anyone ever seen a "Lucky Fan" of Chuck Connors?

[brian1961]

everything is rarer than topps and bowman regular issues
the pop report is meaningless on other issues

I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence. The second sentence is balderdash, unless one realizes the very rare world you often hunt for. The pop report is a fine guage for most of the prominent and important regional / food issues of the immediate post-war. Not so for many of the exceedingly obscure items you delight in, for which many of us have never seen, nor heard of. My, you must wrack your brain frequently over how to procure these groundhogs. How does one get word to still-living dinosaurs and their descendants that you want X and this is what X looks like, and I am willing to pay you this much $ for them? As much as you do not wish to make the last part of the scenario known, showing the color of your money will be what gets their attention to study the first part, expressing what you are in the market for.

The time is ticking down for those still-living who might have saved their Comiskey Park tickets with the picture of a White Sox player.

Time for me to stop pondering the matter. --Brian Powell

[ALR-bishop]

Look at the bright side Larry, you may be senseless but you are apparently not a lard head like some poor guy on CU :)

[sflayank]

Pop report IS COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS
On regionals....probably less than 5% of esskay briggs hunters etc r in the pop..only the true collector knows which certain cards in those sets are much rarer than the others...the pop is a waste of time for regionals and test issues...tells the collector absolutely nothing

[brian1961]

Look at the bright side Larry, you may be senseless but you are apparently not a lard head like some poor guy on CU :)

Yeah, for sure.

[ALR-bishop]

I do not know if it is useful or useless since I have never used it...or seen it

[brian1961]

Pop report IS COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS
On regionals....probably less than 5% of esskay briggs hunters etc r in the pop..only the true collector knows which certain cards in those sets are much rarer than the others...the pop is a waste of time for regionals and test issues...tells the collector absolutely nothing

Larry, if we were to converse at length on the matter, I'm sure you're dead on right. I was coming from the standpoint that with most of the classic regionals, the pop report is a good guage to determine relative rarity. I was thinking in terms of Glendales, Wilsons, Dan-Dees, Kellogg's 3-Ds, Salada Coins, Stahl-Meyers, Morrells, Bell Brands, Dormand Post Cards, Bazookas, Post Cereal, etc.

However, with the examples you provide, that's an entirely different proposition because of one thing. The prime common denoninator with the cards you mentioned, Esskay, Briggs, and Hunter's Wieners, is the fact that all of them are hand-cut cards. It is probably unwise to get one's hopes up very high with PSA grading them, because I really think they don't have a good handle on how to grade them, numerically. Then again, most children didn't have a good handle on that matter of cutting the card off the product package, either, as I wrote in my book. True, I included Bazookas and Post Cereal, both hand-cut card issues, in my list. The difference with those two brands was that the manufacturer kindly provided a clear cut defined dashed line where the cards were to be cut off the package.

Sadly, most collectors equate "Authentic" with genuine worthlessness, which, depending on the issue, IS INDEED BALDERDASH! Years after we're gone, a card or small find of the three you mention will show up at the doors of the various auction houses. All that to say a substantial number of them have not been submitted to PSA or SGC because the owners felt it was a waste of time, money, and effort to only get back "AUTHENTIC" cards in return. ---Brian Powell

[ValKehl]

Mike, I don't consider any of the issues you mentioned to be rare, but merely slightly scarce to scarce. For truly rare, I nominate:
- 1948 Gunther Beer Wash. Senators PCs
- 1949 Sunbeam/Pureta Sacramento Salons
- 1952 National Tea Bread Labels

I have examples of the first two in my type collection, but I did not have scans of them earlier when I posted. I have now made scans of them - see below.

I do not own a National Tea Bread Label. But, I'd trade my first and second born for one of Mickey Vernon!
Val

[ls7plus]

Hello, Mike. Thanks for posting a very interesting topic, to which those who take the time to respond will offer you all sorts of opinions and options. Personally, I never refer to non-mainstream as "oddball". There are oddball non-mainstream to be sure, but the name "oddball" has a connotation for nonentity, nondescript, a "lesser than" collectible, and obscure.

With the postwar regional / food issues, they are all over the map when it comes to attractiveness, obscure or popular, important and unimportant. I was aware of only one of the three Val mentioned. Just because something is rare does not mean very many people will care about it. It depends.

Recently, I wrote a book on the postwar regional / food issues, entitled NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. You will only find one chapter devoted to a Topps product, the 1959 and 1961 Bazooka baseball issues, one of those you mentioned as having a deep appreciation. Since you have the good taste to relish these sorts of items, I would highly recommend my book on a CD. PM me if you're interested.

Back to the OP, rarity may come in diverse ways. For instance, on the beautiful and elegant 1953-55 Stahl-Meyer Franks baseball cards, I asked long-time metropolitan New York dealer David Festberg about them. His short, terse reply was "they're around." To elaborate in a meaningful way, I would add this. Yes, they're around, but nearly all of them are around PSA 1 or PSA 1 with a dreaded qualifier, or Authentic. Low high grade commences at PSA 2. These cards are the quintessential condition rarity.

So I can deal with other things, I would add a definition from the much more advanced coin world. Ultra rare would dictate a population of five pieces or less. Recall my phrase, "it depends"? Suppose among those five, several look rather bedraggled, smashed, stained, creased to smithereens, with perhaps a pin hole, tack hole, or tape residue? A PSA -5 so to speak.

If it's rare and ugly, I don't care---to own it. You mention Johnston Cookies, made by the same folks who produced the aforementioned Stahl-Meyer Franks. Gorgeous cards, particularly the '53s and '55s. The over-sized Macgregor photos are terrific, especially if displayed with cards. Opposites attract in this instance. It's taken the hobby a generation to appreciate and get off the de-valuing of over-sized cards. A large gang of tunnel-visioned dim-wits could not understand how they would be valuable, along with Exhibits, sports coins, team-issue photos, et al. As a collector advances, sometimes his mind matures.

The PSA Master Set Registry considerably helped with a deeper appreciation for the non-gum items as well. To wit, as the serious, motivated registrants began hunting down the truly scarce and rare pieces, their perception, appreciation, and respect for those toughies began slow-cooking to their tastiest best, a la the precise place reserved for the prized pieces. Combined, of course, along with the premium prices they had to pay when they found one for sale, or had to keep raising the ante until the guy they found who had one would finally be willing to part with it. Money talks in many ways, but sometimes its takes a lot more money than previously thought to talk someone into letting go of a piece they likewise prize themselves. The combo of beauty, quality, and rarity do not come with a discount.

Gotta go. Hope this helps or at least stimulates the thread.

Best regards. Don't forget about my book on a CD if you're interested. It's not an exhaustive treatment, but a fine selection. Google the title and you'll find the press release written by then-SCD editor Tom Bartsch, who kindly included how-to-order details. ---Brian Powell

Outstanding post--many thanks for your perspective!

Best wishes,

Larry

[Rich Klein]

The last time I worked with Dr. Beckett he mentioned your book and how much he enjoyed reading your detailed work on the subject

Rich

[Bestdj777]

Hi Larry and Rich, I spoke with Brian and he was touched by the kind words. He is out of pocket as he deals with some stuff on his end but asked that I please pass along his thanks.

[ls7plus]

1968 Atlantic Oil SPs: they were prize winners in a cash sweepstakes. I've seen two in 30+ years of collecting the set.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1968%20Atlantic%20Oil%20Osteen.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1968%20Atlantic%20Oil%20Davis%20AL%20SP_1.jpg

Some of the newspaper cut-out type cards are rare, like this 1960 version:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1960%20Herald%20Examiner%20Koufax%20Snider.jpg

Most rarities will be stadiana, picture packs, team issues and product premiums for local products.

1951 Hallicrafters
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1951%20Hallicrafters%20Rosen-Lemon.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Perforated%20Robinson-Cagney.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Exhibit%20Williams.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Rodine%20Baseball%20HOF%204.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1950%20Kiner%20photo.jpg

1954 KQV:
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1950s%20KQV%20Pie%20Traynor%20premium.jpg

1951 Hage's
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1951%20Hages%20Baker-Reese.jpg

1951 Fleet Wing Indians:
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1952%20Fleet%20Wing%20Indians%201.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1952%20Fleet%20Wing%20Indians%2011.jpg

Nice cards, Adam--I really think you hit the nail on the head with the '47 Bond Bread Exhibit Wiliams--IMHO, this set will continue to be quite rare. Luckily, except for Williams, I've got the star and HOF'er cards I want from the set. Tough Musial, but looks good in VG-EX!

Highest regards,

Larry

[Exhibitman]

Thanks, Larry. I agree, that set is a lot tougher than one might think, especially in really nice condition. I more or less stumbled across the ones I have. I thought this one was probably unique (I've never seen another):

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/notanexhibitcard/websize/1947%20Bond%20Exhibit%20Reese%20signed.JPG

ETA: if anyone has info on the Rodine card I posted, I'd love to hear more and see more of them.

[rgpete]

Unopened Cuban PELOTEROS Matches Box complete with Tax Stamp, but mine semi attached due to age

[brian1961]

The last time I worked with Dr. Beckett he mentioned your book and how much he enjoyed reading your detailed work on the subject

Rich

Rich, I do apologize to you, sir, for taking what has seemed "forever" in acknowledging the praise for my E-book on a CD, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. My father-in-law passed away on October 6th, and my dear wife and I have been engulfed in hosting family, services, and our own grief.

Thanks ever so much for the kind words from Dr. Beckett. They mean a great deal to me, believe me. I showed the post to my wife, and she was so pleased.

I hope some day someone does a review on NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN, or decides to interview me about it, for the benefit of other collectors who may be undecided about a hobby book or a book on a CD. I'd be a very willing interviewee!

Anyway, thanks again, friend, for the kind post. I really needed it.

I hope things are going well for your own family, Rich.

Take care.

Best regards, Brian Powell

[Exhibitman]

Sorry for your loss, Brian.

So I managed to find another two Rodines:

This one has a fold-out 1954 schedule in it:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1954%20Rodine%20PC%203.jpg

This is a premium but I assume there is a PC too:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1954%20Rodine%201%20premium.jpg

[brian1961]

Thanks, Adam, I appreciate that a lot.

Best regards, and happy hunting. ---Brian Powell

[ted cottingham]

Card #80 Lefty Grove front, Pepper Martin back. I know of 3 .
Card #80 Lefty Grove front, Joe Tinker back. I have 1, never seen or heard of another

[sflayank]

also come with collins
several board members have them
but they are somewhat rare

[Joe Hunter]

I've found this 28 card set to be very scarce. I've got 14 of them including this one and the Slaughter, but have had no luck adding to the set. These have the same images as the much more accessible team-issued blank back set.

[ALR-bishop]

Great addition Joe

[sflayank]

i have 15 different...probably most of the same ones

[tedzan]

Any one of the cards in this set of 36 are very difficult to find. I consider these cards among of the rarest in the post WWII era.


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949bowmanpcl1.jpg



TED Z
.