OMG: Jose Fernandez Killed in Boating Accident

[clydepepper]

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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

A terrific young talent gone too soon. Prayers to his family....

[yanksfan09]

Can't believe it. He was the most exciting young pitcher to watch. He may have had the nastiest raw stuff I've ever witnessed. What a horrible loss to the game. Prayers to his family and the Marlins.

[rjackson44]

im stunned

[Topps206]

This is as stunning as it gets. R.I.P.

We lost somebody who could've been a Hall of Famer.

[icollectDCsports]

A truly great young player, joyful personality, and particularly beloved by the Cuban-American citizens of Miami. He risked his life to defect to this country. I feel terrible for his family, those close to him, his teammates, the citizens of Miami, and all Marlins fans. A tremendous loss. RIP

[Snapolit1]

Awful awful awful. And was about to become a father. So tragic.

[Dewey]

Gutted. RIP.

[familytoad]

Hard to fathom...rest in peace Jose.
What a undeniable tragedy:(

[Shoeless Moe]

.

[Shoeless Moe]

.

[david_l]

Jailed twice at the age of fifteen for trying to flee Cuba. Baby on the way. Fascinating life. Big tragedy.

I think others on the boat lost their life as well according to the NYT story I read. Very sad.

[majordanby]

sad and unfortunate. one of the best young pitchers in the game, with so much still to look forward to.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Wow, I'm at a loss for words. This is so heartbreaking. The kid had so much passion and love for the game and off the field.

[bravos4evr]

wow.... man, really tough blow for the Marlins and his family. One of the best arms in MLB gone at 24..... eesh :(

[clydepepper]

delete

[Shoeless Moe]

and I know probably not the time to question this, but have to....anyone know why his start today was pushed back to tomorrow (Monday).

Had it not, you wonder if he's out at 3 a.m. the night b4 a start.

[z28jd]

First thing I thought of, which shows my vintage baseball mind, is Charlie Ferguson passing away after the 1887 season. He was also 24 when he pitched his last game. A superstar in the making with 99 career wins already, plus he batted .337 and drove in 85 runs his last year, taking turns in the infield when he wasn't on the mound. A budding superstar at the time and possibly a future Hall of Famer. I don't think Ferguson's Old Judge card prices really reflect the tragedy of his passing from typhoid fever.

(I have one of his cards, but no scan, so here's a random one I found of Google)

[bravos4evr]

and I know probably not the time to question this, but have to....anyone know why his start today was pushed back to tomorrow (Monday).

Had it not, you wonder if he's out at 3 a.m. the night b4 a start.

they were in the wildcard hunt and played the mets mon , they were hoping his start could allow them to pick up a a whole win towards the WC rather than a 50/50 shot of half a win by starting against the braves and then hoping the mets lost too.

but yeah, I doubt he's out late with a noon start today.... but that's life

[yankeeno7]

What a great pitcher who was already experienced MLBer at 24. I would watch him pitch when ever I could on my MLB subscription. A huge loss to MLB. Prayers to his family and friends. RIP Jose.

[wolf441]

Lost for words. Unbelievable tragedy. He seemed to bring so much joy to the game when he pitched. Prayers to family and friends.

[Rookiemonster]

Rip so young this is very sad

[sbfinley]

Just came in from work and saw the news. 24 is far too young no matter your profession, but I will say this. Almost more than any other young athlete, I honestly enjoyed watching him pitch. I'll tune into games because of the matchup. I'll tune into games because of the rivalries. I'll tune into games simply because they are on. I thoroughly enjoy the sport of baseball and I thoroughly enjoyed tuning into games specifically to watch him pitch. His ability was mesmerizing. There are great pitchers coast to coast, and several are arguably better than him, but strictly from the prospective of watching a person take the mound and try to hurl a baseball past another man - there was no current player I took more joy in watching than Jose.

[the 'stache]

I'm still shocked. I was a huge fan. Jose played the game the right way, and his enthusiasm was infectious. As far as pitchers go, he was a beast! I agree, some of the nastiest stuff I've ever seen. To come back from Tommy John the way he did this season....man, I just can't believe it.

This is a terrible, terrible loss for baseball. My heart goes out to his family, and the Marlins fans & organization.

I was just going to send this in for grading, too. :(

http://net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=627&pictureid=15150

Rest in Peace, Jose.

[the 'stache]

Two young men I thought were going to be absolute superstars gone so young, and in such close proximity. I'm still not over Oscar Taveras' tragic death. Now this.

Hug your loved ones close tonight, folks. Nothing is guaranteed. Life is a gift, and it can be over in the blink of an eye.

[kylebicking]

I rarely post here (hi, everyone)... watch the first five minutes of this clip... grab some tissues to soak up those tears. Such a painful loss. I wish more professional athletes were like Jose, across all sports. Imagine losing your childhood hero today. That's what just happened to too many young fans. I can't wait to hug my grandmother again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JW7fcf1qg

[sreader3]

Just tragic. Couldn't help but think of another NL Rookie of the Year who left us way too early.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/fifty-years-later-ken-hubbs-memory-continues-to-glow-021314

[EvilKing00]

wow - prayers to his family as well as the 2 others who were killed. very sad day for the mlb as it just lost a good guy and a great talent.

[rats60]

Just tragic. Couldn't help but think of another NL Rookie of the Year who left us way too early.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/fifty-years-later-ken-hubbs-memory-continues-to-glow-021314

Jofer's tragic passing reminds me of Lyman Bostock . He also died towards the end of his fourth season ending what was a promising career. RIP Jofer.

[Shoeless Moe]

All Marlins players will be wearing #16 tonight

[Yoda]

My God, Jose and Arnie, both passing within 24 hours of each other. One a long and fulfilled life and the other just starting after early years filled with peril. This is a "Black Monday" for sure. Living in South Florida as I do, the shock here is palatable. The Marlins are in the race for a wild card slot and fans thought Jose was going to get them there. And I never thought I would see Don Mattingly cry. He showed he is as human as anybody.

[ASpaceman]

Devastating.

[conor912]

Any word on why he was in a boat in the middle of the night?

[clydepepper]

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[conor912]

Yeah, though all of the facts aren't out yet, there was clearly a series of poor decisions made. It takes hitting a jetty at one hell of a speed for your boat to end up looking like that.

[clydepepper]

delete

[Snapolit1]

I am leery of boats under the best of circumstances. The idea of being on a boat in the dark going high speed would be beyond terrifying.

[conor912]

The idea of being on a boat in the dark going high speed would be beyond terrifying.

+1

[richardcards]

Rip

[1952boyntoncollector]

Whats sad as well is his estate will be sued by both the estates of the the other passengers in his boat if Jose was driving the boat, or if Jose wasn't driving, his estate will be sued by the passenger that was not driving as Jose was the owner of the boat..

You will hear about these lawsuits once the dust settles...

[packs]

That's the American way. I was reading about the NJ transit crash this morning. By standers assisted a woman who had her legs pinned between cars. I don't know if I would do the same thing after reading about another woman who sued a good Samaritan for pulling her from her burning car. She was paralyzed as a result of her accident and then sued her rescuer for moving her. Sometimes I think this world wasn't meant for me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

That's the American way. I was reading about the NJ transit crash this morning. By standers assisted a woman who had her legs pinned between cars. I don't know if I would do the same thing after reading about another woman who sued a good Samaritan for pulling her from her burning car. She was paralyzed as a result of her accident and then sued her rescuer for moving her. Sometimes I think this world wasn't meant for me.

Im sure she sued someone else with the rescuer with a deep pocket like the governmental agency/company/insurance company. I doubt the goal was to collect from the rescuer personally.

If there was alcohol in the system of Jose Fernandez or one of the drivers, the damages could easily exceed the 6 million in earnings he made...

[packs]

No she specifically sued the person who pulled her from her burning car and said it was their fault she was paralyzed. Even worse, it was her own friend. Read for yourself:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6498405&page=1

[clydepepper]

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[1952boyntoncollector]

No she specifically sued the person who pulled her from her burning car and said it was their fault she was paralyzed. Even worse, it was her own friend. Read for yourself:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6498405&page=1

Article still doesnt address insurance or anyone else being sued. Its possible the victim may be suing her auto insurance for example but you would also have to name the rescuer in the lawsuit. If you knew case style, like whats the name of the case in court that could shed light on that issue

[1952boyntoncollector]

Funny i just finished the message and a quick google search proves my point..

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/How-car-insurance-ruling-protects-Good-Samaritans-5687227.php

The lawsuit is only going forward because there is potential auto insurance out there to pay a judgment that can be in the millions of dollars. (one carrier paid 4 million) If the only pocket was the rescuer there almost certainly would be no lawsuit.

I dont blame someone who is paralyzed to sue a rescuer when insurance covers the incident and no money comes out of the rescuer.


You cant say i dont contribute anything to the forum

[Stonepony]

Funny i just finished the message and a quick google search proves my point..

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/How-car-insurance-ruling-protects-Good-Samaritans-5687227.php

The lawsuit is only going forward because there is potential auto insurance out there to pay a judgment that can be in the millions of dollars. (one carrier paid 4 million) If the only pocket was the rescuer there almost certainly would be no lawsuit.

I dont blame someone who is paralyzed to sue a rescuer when insurance covers the incident and no money comes out of the rescuer.


You cant say i dont contribute anything to the forum

I'm without words..... Wow

[JustinD]

...exactly why ambulance chasers have such a stellar reputation with the public.

Injury law is sketchy as can be.

Only surpassed by the firms that throw massive class actions out there so they can pocket millions and mail a tidy check for 55 cents to 60 thousand people.

[yanksfan09]

I'm without words..... Wow

Me too!....SMH

[Stampsfan]

Up here in Canada, we also mourned on Sunday for a young Practice Roster player named Mylan Hicks. He played at Michigan State, tried out for the 49ers, and ended up here in Calgary.

By all accounts, an absolutely stand up guy. 23 years old, good student, and in the wrong place at the wrong time on Saturday night.

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/cruickshank-teachers-coaches-rave-about-mylan-hicks

The story is he actually ended up buying a drink for the punk who eventually shot him, trying to calm things down in the club. Originally from Detroit, apparently his mother was quite glad to have her son come to Canada where he would be safer. It's just sad to see someone who comes to our country in pursuit of a dream, and just ends up paying the worst price.

http://calgaryherald.com/sports/football/hicks-honoured-by-michigan-state-university

I'm pretty sure most of you don't get much news on our little league up here, but they're athletes just trying to make a living.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Here comes the lawsuit soon. One of the the 'friends' of jose had never driven a boat and only met him once before so its unlikely he drove. If there is evidence and a verdict that Jose caused the death of 2 people, this could impact his legacy. If you were the family of a someone who died based on the actions of a celebrity, i would think you would be upset every time you saw that celebrity being honored as it would bring up memories of a tragedy.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/10/20/families-2-killed-in-jose-fernandez-boat-crash-get-lawyer.html


We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence that Jose killed two people would you still name a high school or some type of school after Jose Fernandez for all he has done in miami community.

[jhs5120]

We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence that Jose killed two people would you still name a high school or some type of school after Jose Fernandez for all he has done in miami community.

Yes

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you were the parents of the other 2 victims on that boat and they were against naming a school after him they may beg to differ

In addition thus far the bad driving actions may be a result of being a fight with a girlfriend and worse yet maybe alcohol involved


Basically if Roberto Clemente was operating the plane in 1973 and the crash killed 2 passengers and was as a result of pilot error, i dont think his legacy would even be one half of what it is today.

[packs]

I don't think that's true. Processing a death is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There are many emotions that trump blame when it comes to the early death of a beloved person in the community.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is all premature, and indeed the lawyer said he is awaiting the results of the investigation. At this point there is no basis even to speculate.

[1952boyntoncollector]

This is all premature, and indeed the lawyer said he is awaiting the results of the investigation. At this point there is no basis even to speculate.

right, thats why i said

"We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence....."

i do think it is also premature to celebrate the guy (ie. name schools after him) given that theres at least a chance right now he is responsible for killing two people.

He is beloved in the community as was stated in this thread, i just think the beloved level may go down depending the results of the wrongful death case etc

[jhs5120]

Basically if Roberto Clemente was operating the plane in 1973 and the crash killed 2 passengers and was as a result of pilot error, i dont think his legacy would even be one half of what it is today.

Sooooo.... Thurman Munson?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sooooo.... Thurman Munson?

munson did not kill anyone other than himself, now Oscar Taveres killied someone likely while being drunk but since the accident did not occur in the united states, there were no lawsuits here which would of impacted his legacy more. I just find it hard to honor anyone that is responsible for killing someone no matter their exploits on the playing field.

[packs]

I think you're losing sight of what's important. The things Fernandez did for children and people in his community don't get erased because of the circumstances of his death. Naming something after him for his charity work or work within his communities is not a vote of support for any type of behavior you're insinuating contributed to his death or the deaths of the people on the boat. We name our schools after much worse people.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think you're losing sight of what's important. The things Fernandez did for children and people in his community don't get erased because of the circumstances of his death. Naming something after him for his charity work or work within his communities is not a vote of support for any type of behavior you're insinuating contributed to his death or the deaths of the people on the boat. We name our schools after much worse people.

I havent seen any schools named after someone whos last act in life was killing someone and being completely at fault (correct me if i am wrong). You can kill someone a year earlier or some other time earlier, i guess but if its your last act you do in life, its a tough pill to swallow, especially for the family of the victims.

There could be a 20 million dollar judgment against Jose Fernandez that is pending as his heirs try to hide money from the plaintiffs going on while they are naming schools after him. Good grief.

Again its too early to tell fault but thats true about a lot of things.

[jhs5120]

I just find it hard to honor anyone that is responsible for killing someone no matter their exploits on the playing field.

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

Agree with this.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

luck impacts a legacy no doubt if those passengers with Munson did DIE, that would of impacted his legacy. 5 seconds in a persons life can change it forever even if that person lived a great life for 80 years. What you did in those last 20 seconds of your life usually doesnt impact the view of the persons whole life unless something huge happened like killing 2 people.

accidents do happen but they are preventable as well. You have to be responsible for your actions. Some drunk (not saying this is the case) can also cause an accident but you would not tolerate that person saying 'accidents happen' Saying 'accidents happen' does not relieve you of responsibility. What if you killed 20 kids and it was entirely at fault. So if killing 2 adults in the last seconds in your life isnt enough to prevent your name on a school how about 10 people? how about 30 people? To me every life is valuable, if its not good to kill 30 people then its not good to kill 1.

History tends to judge people on what they did at the worse which is probably less than .0001% of what they did the rest of their life thats how it goes.

We all have the lowest moments in our lives, the key during that time is not to be killed or kill someone. What is sad is killing someone is the only thing that is unforgivable because you cant ask for forgiveness from someone you killed.

[jhs5120]

History tends to judge people on what they did at the worse which is probably less than .0001% of what they did the rest of their life thats how it goes.

History is forgiving of accidents. They do not represent a person at their worst, they represent a person as a human being. It is especially callous to judge a person by the mistake that cost him his life.

[1952boyntoncollector]

History is forgiving of accidents. They do not represent a person at their worst, they represent a person as a human being. It is especially callous to judge a person by the mistake that cost him his life.

Well here we go with luck again. If the person didnt die that caused the accident, but 2 people died, then it would not be especially callous for history to judge that person. The fact of whether that person lived or died should not factor into that equation if there are 2 other victims that died because of that person's actions. I still have not heard of an example of someone in history that been forgiven for killing an innocent person as their final act to a point where they would name a school after them.

I know donte stallworth paid a large sum of money for killing someone in miami and he has made it a point in his life to be a good person and expand his knowledge etc. However he has said on the radio that he paid the family even though he could of won in court or something to that effect so maybe he was not civilly at fault and it wasnt his last act in his life.

[jhs5120]

Laura Bush killed a 17 year old boy and has several schools, libraries and scholarships named after her.

Howard Hughes killed a woman and was given the Congressional Gold Medal three years later he also has a school named after him.

Ted Kennedy also killed someone. He has an honorary Knighthood, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and a cancer research institute named after him.

Matthew Broderick killed two people and still gets movies.

There are also countless local teachers, students and athletes who die in car crashes every year who are honored posthumously with scholarships named after them. It is something very few people (except perhaps you) take issue with.

[Snapolit1]

Agree. Let's judge someone for the full measure of their life and not by the worst 60 seconds of it. There is a difference between negligent and evil (e.g., OJ Simpson, Mel Hall, the football player who went around the country date raping women, etc.) I am sure all of us have done very very stupid things in our lives. Like driving home after a few too many drinks. There by the grace of God go I (or something like that. Need to ask my mother on the exact wording.)

[packs]

Nathan Bedford Forrest and William Saunders were both leaders of the Klan and had public institutions named after them. Carolina Hall at UNC was Saunders Hall until only last year. Forrest still has schools named after him, along with parks, roads, playgrounds, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agree. Let's judge someone for the full measure of their life and not by the worst 60 seconds of it. There is a difference between negligent and evil (e.g., OJ Simpson, Mel Hall, the football player who went around the country date raping women, etc.) I am sure all of us have done very very stupid things in our lives. Like driving home after a few too many drinks. There by the grace of God go I (or something like that. Need to ask my mother on the exact wording.)

There but for the grace of God...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Laura Bush killed a 17 year old boy and has several schools, libraries and scholarships named after her.

Howard Hughes killed a woman and was given the Congressional Gold Medal three years later he also has a school named after him.

Ted Kennedy also killed someone. He has an honorary Knighthood, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and a cancer research institute named after him.

Matthew Broderick killed two people and still gets movies.

There are also countless local teachers, students and athletes who die in car crashes every year who are honored posthumously with scholarships named after them. It is something very few people (except perhaps you) take issue with.


Laura Bush was barely 17 and a minor and zero drinking involved and of course wasnt the last act she had on the earth. If it was a 17 year old baseball player involved in a similar accident there would also be more understanding

Ted Kennedy issue was a major scandal but he is a political elite which meant even more in the 1960s then today. Again he didnt die in that accident. If he did he would not have had all those extra years of public service. His legacy would of been far different if he didnt have a chance to tell the world what he said happened in the accident etc.

You got me on Broderick though, you make a good point with him, though he didnt die in the accident.. However its one thing to be in movies and another to be have public schools named after you. Afterall he is an actor, and i along with everyone else would not care of jose fernandez survived the accident and continued to play baseball which is is livelihood. Lots of players have been involved in killings with much more intent than a car accident and continued to play.

Its one thing to play ball and another to be considered national hero.

All of those teachers/students/athetes who die in car accidents and have scholarships named after them more likely than not did not kill anyone else let alone 2 people.


I know i was very saddened to hear about the loss of Jose Fernandez. Its an immense loss all around.

[Bestdj777]

I know i was very saddened to hear about the loss of Jose Fernandez. Its an immense loss all around.

Then stop talking about this other BS.

[JollyElm]

Nathan Bedford Forrest and William Saunders were both leaders of the Klan and had public institutions named after them. Carolina Hall at UNC was Saunders Hall until only last year. Forrest still has schools named after him, along with parks, roads, playgrounds, etc.

And don't forget about the eponymous, freaky character Tom Hanks won an Oscar for playing.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And don't forget about the eponymous, freaky character Tom Hanks won an Oscar for playing.

Tom Hanks played a character named Tom Hanks???

[JollyElm]

Tom Hanks played the eponymous protagonist of the movie 'Forrest Gump.' Does that clear it up for you???????

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not to get into a semantics argument but if Tom Hanks played an eponymous protagonist he played a protagonist named Tom Hanks.

If a school was named after Nathan Bedford Forrest it is an eponymous school. The name has to be the same.

You could say that Nathan Bedford Forrest had an eponymous character in a Tom Hanks movie, and if you weren't being too picky about only having one name in common I'd sorta buy that, but by that logic Forrest Gregg was closer to having an eponymous character in the movie, and Gump played football!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Then stop talking about this other BS.

I dont think it is BS at all. Some will agree and some will differ. Im sure the family of the victims would be upset with you calling my comments BS.

I do think the end game for miami is to basically blame at least comparatively the jetty/pier and to put money into making the jetty more visible to save future lives and honor jose that way. I dont think anyone would object to that plus it puts less fault on whoever was driving the boat.

[Bestdj777]

I dont think it is BS at all. Some will agree and some will differ. Im sure the family of the victims would be upset with you calling my comments BS.

I do think the end game for miami is to basically blame at least comparatively the jetty/pier and to put money into making the jetty more visible to save future lives and honor jose that way. I dont think anyone would object to that plus it puts less fault on whoever was driving the boat.

I don't think the families would care one bit about any comments you or I made about the situation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I don't think the families would care one bit about any comments you or I made about the situation.

I think they would care one way or the other right now. To say someone who lost a family member wouldnt care is a pretty blanket statement in a vacuum. A lawyer was hired for a reason as well, the issues around this accident are still ongoing.

I would assume they would care and have a say about what honors jose fernandez would get and would care about people comments in support of his honors or against those honors. As facts come out from the accident it may impact how they care.

I know i review what i post here with the eyes of what families of the victims may see here whether they see the comments or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not to get into a semantics argument but if Tom Hanks played an eponymous protagonist he played a protagonist named Tom Hanks.

If a school was named after Nathan Bedford Forrest it is an eponymous school. The name has to be the same.

You could say that Nathan Bedford Forrest had an eponymous character in a Tom Hanks movie, and if you weren't being too picky about only having one name in common I'd sorta buy that, but by that logic Forrest Gregg was closer to having an eponymous character in the movie, and Gump played football!

You sure about that?
http://www.listal.com/list/eponymous-movie-titles

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

You sure about that?
http://www.listal.com/list/eponymous-movie-titles

Anything named after someone is not eponymous. I would say that site is using it wrong. Especially considering that those titles are largely fictional characters not named after anyone.


adjective
1.
giving one's name to a tribe, place, etc.:
Romulus, the eponymous founder of Rome.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's good enough for Sporcle it's good enough for me. :D

http://www.sporcle.com/games/livfred/eponymous_movies

[pclpads]

Yawn. Think most of youse guys need to hit your local watering hole and get laid for a Friday nite. Else, you wouldn't be posting this nonsense. :rolleyes:

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yawn. Think most of youse guys need to hit your local watering hole and get laid for a Friday nite. Else, you wouldn't be posting this nonsense. :rolleyes:

Jose Fernandez and passengers all with alcohol on their breath

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/26/jose-fernandez-boat-crash-alcohol-odor/92784342/


"“This recklessness was exacerbated by the consumption of alcohol by the operator, whoever that was."

[PhillipAbbott79]

I have a 2 points about this:

1. Dead people don't breathe
2. They had water in their lungs. I would expect those observations to be tainted.

[Snapolit1]

Fernandez under influence of cocaine and alcohol at time of crash. Terrible.

Driving a speed boat in the dark of night at high speed under the influence of coke. Really bad idea on many levels.

[FirstYearCards]

I guess we're all blessed the Gods put rocks there instead of a family. Happens all to often in traffic accidents. Although I'm sure he never did any car driving under those intoxications.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Wow...I wanted to keep his cards I have but now I am having second thoughts

[Snapolit1]

Was a great player but like a lot of people in their 20s think they are invincible.

I tell my kids all the time about the hockey goaltender from NJ who was killed years ago speeding. His reflexes were superhuman quick and had perception skills than none of us mere mortals will come anywhere near. If he can lose control of a car on a turn speeding all of us can. Speed kills.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Fernandez under influence of cocaine and alcohol at time of crash. Terrible.

Driving a speed boat in the dark of night at high speed under the influence of coke. Really bad idea on many levels.

Yeah it gets worse and worse plus not just under the influence a .14 which pretty dang high plus cocaine.. (yes we cant prove who was driving yet but it was his boat)

We really going to name public schools after him? Plus he knew he had a baby on the way..

Like someone said, luckily it was just rocks and not people they ran into. I still disagree that a man's last actions if it results in a the death of innocent people can't taint many years of good work. If they release these toxicology reports when they were first available instead having to be sued to release them the narrative about Jose Fernandez would of been a lot different in terms of the celebration part

One of the passengers didnt have cocaine in their system as well so it wasnt a group thing.

[clydepepper]

delete

[Cliff Bowman]

If three men who were sober and clean decided it was a brilliant idea to take a speedboat out on the ocean at one in the morning with the knowledge that there were unseeable deadly hazards in the dark around them, I would be bewildered. It makes sense now.

[1963Topps Set]

Did I miss something, but why wasn't the Tim Crews boat accident mentioned?

[insidethewrapper]

Makes you wonder how many of these players are using cocaine etc.

[keithsky]

Don't these guys get drug tested on a regular basis? If he used cocaine i would think it would be in his system for a while say if he didn't die or crash and went back the next day or so to play.

[z28jd]

Don't these guys get drug tested on a regular basis? If he used cocaine i would think it would be in his system for a while say if he didn't die or crash and went back the next day or so to play.

They test for drugs of abuse if they believe there is reasonable cause to suspect a player of abusing drugs. That doesn't mean if a player fails, that anything happens. They could recommend a treatment program for them. They won't get suspended though.

Drugs of abuse suspensions only apply to minor league players not on the 40-man roster. There have been rumors of a couple instances of teams adding players to the 40-man roster to protect them from lifetime suspensions under the minor league drug prevention program.

[Snapolit1]

With everything these guys have to lose you'd think they put the hard drugs far far away. Drink and drink, use a driver the team would be thrilled to provide.

I know it's not a great thought, but now I look at all the videos of Fernandez going manic in the dugout differently. Was he going back to the bathroom and having a few toots on days he wasn't starting? I have no idea. But certainly makes you wonder.

RIP. None of this makes him a terrible person. Just someone who made some terrible choices.

[1952boyntoncollector]

With everything these guys have to lose you'd think they put the hard drugs far far away. Drink and drink, use a driver the team would be thrilled to provide.

I know it's not a great thought, but now I look at all the videos of Fernandez going manic in the dugout differently. Was he going back to the bathroom and having a few toots on days he wasn't starting? I have no idea. But certainly makes you wonder.

RIP. None of this makes him a terrible person. Just someone who made some terrible choices.

Not saying it applies to Jose, but it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Not saying it applies to Jose, but it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.

Making a terrible choice or choices is not exclusive to terrible people, at least in my opinion and based off of my experiences. This is especially true when it comes to addiction. Of course ultimately that final judgment is not ours to make anyways

[clydepepper]

delete

[1952boyntoncollector]

Making a terrible choice or choices is not exclusive to terrible people, at least in my opinion and based off of my experiences. This is especially true when it comes to addiction. Of course ultimately that final judgment is not ours to make anyways

I didnt say that, i just said it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With everything these guys have to lose you'd think they put the hard drugs far far away. Drink and drink, use a driver the team would be thrilled to provide.

I know it's not a great thought, but now I look at all the videos of Fernandez going manic in the dugout differently. Was he going back to the bathroom and having a few toots on days he wasn't starting? I have no idea. But certainly makes you wonder.

RIP. None of this makes him a terrible person. Just someone who made some terrible choices.

Who knows. As a rich young single very popular athlete in a city with lots of rich young partyers, maybe he fell in with the wrong crowd. Or maybe it was just an unfortunate one-time thing.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Who knows. As a rich young single very popular athlete in a city with lots of rich young partyers, maybe he fell in with the wrong crowd. Or maybe it was just an unfortunate one-time thing.

Perhaps,but people like to argue things are a one time thing versus perhaps someone got away with doing certain behavior without incident until now..

so many reality cop shows are sting operations the perpetrator says 'its my first time' Like 95% of the time, it appears they are arresting people who said its their first time

one of the guys on the boat didnt have cocaine in his system as well so there seemed to be a choice involved..


Theres an issue of who was driving which really does impact a potential settlement. I believe you are only liable up to 600k per person in florida for just being the owner of a boat which was being driven by someone that caused an accident. If you are active driver though, the sky is the limit

[Tripredacus]

I noticed that Topps set all his cards to "Sold Out" in Bunt. That would mean that you can't get them in packs anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no idea about Fernandez, but for some people coke can be a terrible drug, I had a very close friend in law school who really struggled with it and he was anything but a terrible person.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have no idea about Fernandez, but for some people coke can be a terrible drug, I had a very close friend in law school who really struggled with it and he was anything but a terrible person.

That can be true and to boot he probably not responsible in some part for the deaths of two people.

Terrible people make terrible choices, unless you can point to someone we can all agree is a terrible person and see if that person did not make terrible choices.

I contend that all terrible people make terrible choices but not all people that make terrible choices are terrible people..

[ALR-bishop]

I am sending this one to Jack Handey with a note saying "top this one"

[KCRfan1]

I remember hearing an interview years ago, from a former MLB player.

He said that starting pitchers were more susceptible to substance or alcohol abuse. They pitch once a week, twice at best. That leaves A LOT of downtime, something that most position players, since they will play everyday, do not have.

As mentioned previously, life is all about choices though.

[Shoeless Moe]

That can be true and to boot he probably not responsible in some part for the deaths of two people.

Terrible people make terrible choices, unless you can point to someone we can all agree is a terrible person and see if that person did not make terrible choices.

I contend that all terrible people make terrible choices but not all people that make terrible choices are terrible people..

and not all people make terrible posts, but some do!

[glynparson]

and yes I mean EVERYONE has made a terrible choice at one point or another in their life. That does not mean any of us deserved to die for a moment of stupidity. I feel for all those that lost their lives these new revelations do not change my feelings that this was tragic.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I remember hearing an interview years ago, from a former MLB player.

He said that starting pitchers were more susceptible to substance or alcohol abuse. They pitch once a week, twice at best. That leaves A LOT of downtime, something that most position players, since they will play everyday, do not have.

As mentioned previously, life is all about choices though.

Thats a good point..i bet that probably applies to kickers and punters in football too as they have a lot of downtime and its not like there is much of a playbook to look at.

[darwinbulldog]

So most of you guys are on board with contracausal free will? Perhaps it's best if I just post about baseball cards.

[ramram]

So most of you guys are on board with contracausal free will? Perhaps it's best if I just post about baseball cards.

Oh man, you made be have to look that word up! Now I gotta figure a way to use that word on my wife tonight.

[quinnsryche]

I remember hearing an interview years ago, from a former MLB player.

He said that starting pitchers were more susceptible to substance or alcohol abuse. They pitch once a week, twice at best. That leaves A LOT of downtime, something that most position players, since they will play everyday, do not have.

As mentioned previously, life is all about choices though.

Tim Raines, Alan Wiggins, Ron LeFlore, Ken Caminiti, Eddie Mathews, Miguel Cabrera, Daryl Strawberry, Lenny Dykstra, Billy Martin, Mickey Mantle, Jimmie Foxx etc. are all known to have been substance abusers (drugs or alcohol) and none of them were pitchers.
I don't agree with that statement one bit.

[insidethewrapper]

I guess this qualifies Jose to be a a US Posage Stamp someday. Just like the drug addict Elvis. My brother was a big stamp collector until they started putting all these "stars" etc on stamps.

[KCRfan1]

Tim Raines, Alan Wiggins, Ron LeFlore, Ken Caminiti, Eddie Mathews, Miguel Cabrera, Daryl Strawberry, Lenny Dykstra, Billy Martin, Mickey Mantle, Jimmie Foxx etc. are all known to have been substance abusers (drugs or alcohol) and none of them were pitchers.
I don't agree with that statement one bit.

We'll agree to disagree. i can come up with a list of pitchers as well, but I'm not sure what that solves. I'm sure there are countless players who never made the news or headlines, that had abuses which were kept quiet and privately handled.

The radio interview was with a former player, and I'll give him the benefit of insight to the matter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

We'll agree to disagree. i can come up with a list of pitchers as well, but I'm not sure what that solves. I'm sure there are countless players who never made the news or headlines, that had abuses which were kept quiet and privately handled.

The radio interview was with a former player, and I'll give him the benefit of insight to the matter.

theres also a bunch more position players on teams than starting pitchers..

[packs]

I don't think I believe that at all. It sounds like some idle hands rhetoric.

[glynparson]

It is not just rhetoric it is actually backed up with facts it's why things like midnight basketball and thriving job markets, after school programs, and community centres that are thriving help to cut down on crime. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize it's harder to get in trouble when you are doing something productive or positive.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It is not just rhetoric it is actually backed up with facts it's why things like midnight basketball and thriving job markets, after school programs, and community centres that are thriving help to cut down on crime. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize it's harder to get in trouble when you are doing something productive or positive.

Also nothing good ever happens during the night after 2 am typically

[ksabet]

Glass houses people

[Leon]

Also nothing good ever happens during the night after 2 am typically

For my daughter that cut off is 12:30am (she will be 20 this month)...Nothing good happens after that time.....for her anyway....

[packs]

It is not just rhetoric it is actually backed up with facts it's why things like midnight basketball and thriving job markets, after school programs, and community centres that are thriving help to cut down on crime. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize it's harder to get in trouble when you are doing something productive or positive.

I believe all of that when it applies to children. but we were talking about adult professional athletes who aren't pitching on a given day.

[KCRfan1]

For my daughter that cut off is 12:30am (she will be 20 this month)...Nothing good happens after that time.....for her anyway....

Said EVERY dad with a daughter! Too funny Leon!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

delete

[1952boyntoncollector]

Whats sad as well is his estate will be sued by both the estates of the the other passengers in his boat if Jose was driving the boat, or if Jose wasn't driving, his estate will be sued by the passenger that was not driving as Jose was the owner of the boat..

You will hear about these lawsuits once the dust settles...

I guess it took 5 months for the dust to settle

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/jo...031729793.html


Here come the lawsuits that people were arguing wouldn't occur. If Jose wasnt driving the boat, since he was the owner he would be responsible for the death of the one passenger that was not driving the boat or if Jose was the driver he would be responsible for both. Would be interested to know as to what kind of insurance there was.

Also in the works is Jose's mother is trying to be in charge of the estate and the current money (with life insurance proceeds an earnings in the 4 million range) and it would not surprise me if money went 'missing' before a judgment is entered. There is also a potential newborn baby in the future. Still the total death claims right now are for about 4 million dollars. Jose's new contract would of been in the 25 million dollar a year range. A sad situation

[1952boyntoncollector]

Looks like there is some decent evidence that Jose Fernandez was operating the boat at the time of the crash and he had drugs in his system. I really dont think there should be schools named after him. He would have been charged for manslaughter had he lived.


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article138834953.html

[h2oya311]

Looks like there is some decent evidence that Jose Fernandez was operating the boat at the time of the crash and he had drugs in his system. I really dont think there should be schools named after him. He would have been charged for manslaughter had he lived.


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article138834953.html

I saw this today as well. It's more than "decent" evidence at this point that he was driving the boat:

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/investigation-into-jose-fernandez-crash-concludes-he-was-driving-boat-intoxicated/

[CMIZ5290]

I heard a couple of media reports about this, and there were some people saying, let him rest in peace...why do this to the family?, What's the media doing to the family? I totally disagree with those thoughts. While tragic as this incident is, the truth should be known as an example for our younger kids on what can happen when you think you have it all....This was indeed a tragic event, but it could have been easily avoided....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

plus he killed two men, what about their families?

[bnorth]

plus he killed two men, what about their families?

I completely disagree with this. 2 people died but he did not kill anybody. They got on the boat on their own free will and knew exactly what could happen.

Seriously how many people in their entire life have not got in a vehicle/boat with a friend that had a cocktail or something else. Now if that would have ended tragically would you want people saying your friend killed you?

[Fred]

Those other two men were big boys that made the decision to go out with him that morning. It sounds like all three were out drinking together and took off in the boat after 2AM. One of the guys had coke in his system (like Jose). It was just a poor choice that all three made.

[CMIZ5290]

I completely disagree with this. 2 people died but he did not kill anybody. They got on the boat on their own free will and knew exactly what could happen.

Seriously how many people in their entire life have not got in a vehicle/boat with a friend that had a cocktail or something else. Now if that would have ended tragically would you want people saying your friend killed you?

Right. That's why he drove 70 MPH into a rock embankment...They should have known better..Really?

[1952boyntoncollector]

plus he killed two men, what about their families?

Exactly

[1952boyntoncollector]

Those other two men were big boys that made the decision to go out with him that morning. It sounds like all three were out drinking together and took off in the boat after 2AM. One of the guys had coke in his system (like Jose). It was just a poor choice that all three made.

You would be great on a jury for a defense in any DUI auto accident in which the driver killed the passengers because everyone is a 'big boy'. The article says that jose would of been charged with manslaughter had he survived, so apparently you would disagree with that as well.

One of the passengers had no drugs in his system and had basicallyzero boating experience. I am pretty sure he was not aware of the risks

I guess the lawsuits are fruitless because it was the passengers fault for the accident

[Fred]

Jake,

I figure if someone is stupid enough to get into ANY type of vehicle when they know the driver is drunk then that's on them. I never said he shouldn't have been charged with a crime if he had lived. You can call it manslaughter, murder, or whatever - but think about it, those other two guys knew he was drunk. They played Russian Roulette and LOST. And no, I wouldn't let someone off the hook if they were driving drunk and caused the death of his passengers because his passengers knew he was drunk when they got in the vehicle. Geesh, chill out. Your assumptions are so off base.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

He quoted you, but his response seems more like it was aimed at bnorth. That being said, with your thoughts shortly following his I can see where it sounded like you were in agreement.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake,

I figure if someone is stupid enough to get into ANY type of vehicle when they know the driver is drunk then that's on them. I never said he shouldn't have been charged with a crime if he had lived. You can call it manslaughter, murder, or whatever - but think about it, those other two guys knew he was drunk. They played Russian Roulette and LOST. And no, I wouldn't let someone off the hook if they were driving drunk and caused the death of his passengers because his passengers knew he was drunk when they got in the vehicle. Geesh, chill out. Your assumptions are so off base.

i see you agree that the driver is responsible but 'that's on them' as also the responsibility on the passengers for being stupid and implying they are also responsible.

Depends on what you mean 'KNEW' he was drunk. If the guy tells you he had 2 beers but in a boat that means nothing compared to car. Did you kNOW? I know there can be counterarguments but the fact there can be arguments makes adding conditions silly.

Its starts to get complicated when we keep adding layers. Thats why the law is pretty simple. The driver/owner is responsible for the occupants. That way we arent worrried about who knew or should of known things. Nobody thought he would be driving 65 mph or whatever in a rock embankment like cmize said.

[Fred]

If you believe everything on the internet then....

According to the investigation the three were seen in a bar prior to the time they got in the boat. The assumption is that the three were probably together for a while during the evening. Yes, alcohol tends to screw up your judgement (like letting you pile drive your boat at over 65MPH into a jetty on a clear evening) but you have to figure in today's day and age you just need to be smarter when you decide to get into a vehicle with someone that is not in total control. I guess it could have looked worse if Jose was driving his vehicle (on the way to getting to his boat) and slammed it into a tree at 100MPH (killing all three) because society is less tolerant of drinking and then driving a 4 wheeled motor vehicle.

The time line is pretty interesting. Investigators seem to have it nailed down pretty good. The way I see things is that people "own" the consequences of their poor decisions.

I want my kids growing up knowing that consequences of their poor decisions is on them and nobody else.

[packs]

I don't think that's entirely true though. Getting on a boat with someone who was drinking isn't the same as signing your life away. I don't think it's right to blame a victim either. The two men aren't dead because they were drinking or doing drugs, they're dead because Jose Fernandez was drinking and doing drugs.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you believe everything on the internet then....

According to the investigation the three were seen in a bar prior to the time they got in the boat. The assumption is that the three were probably together for a while during the evening. Yes, alcohol tends to screw up your judgement (like letting you pile drive your boat at over 65MPH into a jetty on a clear evening) but you have to figure in today's day and age you just need to be smarter when you decide to get into a vehicle with someone that is not in total control. I guess it could have looked worse if Jose was driving his vehicle (on the way to getting to his boat) and slammed it into a tree at 100MPH (killing all three) because society is less tolerant of drinking and then driving a 4 wheeled motor vehicle.

The time line is pretty interesting. Investigators seem to have it nailed down pretty good. The way I see things is that people "own" the consequences of their poor decisions.

I want my kids growing up knowing that consequences of their poor decisions is on them and nobody else.


It becomes a broader issue, people who drink go with designated drives. So if the people are drunk and dont realize their designated driver is too drunk to drive and an accident happens, its again the passengers to blame? I can see a failure in trust but thats not the same as being responsible for the accident.

The passengers didnt decide to drive, It was Jose. If Jose decided not to drive and nobody drove, then no accident happens.

I really think you just have to blame the driver on this who decided to man the wheel. It makes it a lot easier. If we go around blaming passengers for auto accidents for the fact of just getting into the car or boat thats a pretty slippery slope.

Afterall, we are trying to prevent impaired people from driving. Accidents end right there if people dont drive impaired. We dont need to get into the nitty gritty of what the passengers knew/how impaired were they/etc etc

[KMayUSA6060]

Reading some of the above comments, it's pretty easy to see how someone got millions from McDonald's after said someone spilled their own hot coffee onto their lap. The "victim" mentality in this country is unbelievable. Much like our welfare system, our court system has become a lazy way to make a quick buck and be set for life. Disgusting.

When the reports first came out that Jose had died, there was talks of mental instability. The rumor was he went out on the boat to clear his head, or at least that's how the media made it seem. If this story had been true, and IF his friends tagged along to keep him safe/calm/sane without any knowledge of his intoxication, then Jose could have been charged with murder/manslaughter/etc.

But that's not the case. The reports state that the 3 of them were together that night - all 3 had been drinking and 2/3 had cocaine in their system. Therefore they all made the choice to become intoxicated. Then they all made the choice, coherent or not, to get on the boat. With this being the truth...

Jose Fernandez is responsible for his own death. His one friend is responsible for their own death. His other friend is responsible for their own death. Simple as that.

What's really sickening is the families of the 2 people accompanying Jose are looking to sue Jose's fiancee - whom just had a baby last month might I add. I hope the judge dismisses any lawsuits against Jose Fernandez by these families. Of course, I don't have much faith in our judicial system to do that.

Accountability. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Reading some of the above comments, it's pretty easy to see how someone got millions from McDonald's after said someone spilled their own hot coffee onto their lap. The "victim" mentality in this country is unbelievable. Much like our welfare system, our court system has become a lazy way to make a quick buck and be set for life. Disgusting.

When the reports first came out that Jose had died, there was talks of mental instability. The rumor was he went out on the boat to clear his head, or at least that's how the media made it seem. If this story had been true, and IF his friends tagged along to keep him safe/calm/sane without any knowledge of his intoxication, then Jose could have been charged with murder/manslaughter/etc.

But that's not the case. The reports state that the 3 of them were together that night - all 3 had been drinking and 2/3 had cocaine in their system. Therefore they all made the choice to become intoxicated. Then they all made the choice, coherent or not, to get on the boat. With this being the truth...

Jose Fernandez is responsible for his own death. His one friend is responsible for their own death. His other friend is responsible for their own death. Simple as that.

What's really sickening is the families of the 2 people accompanying Jose are looking to sue Jose's fiancee - whom just had a baby last month might I add. I hope the judge dismisses any lawsuits against Jose Fernandez by these families. Of course, I don't have much faith in our judicial system to do that.

Accountability. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

Well its hard to take your opinion seriously when you start it off with ' it's pretty easy to see how someone got millions from McDonald's after said someone spilled their own hot coffee onto their lap"

What case are you referring too? If there is no specific case of that do you agree that some entity convinced you of that? You may want to see the movie 'hot coffee' that i have attached a link on youtube. Mcdonalds used that misinformation to convince people like you that this occurred but in reality she received far less than a million .

Id like to know the name of this person that actually received milions of dollars from mcdonalds due to fault on their own yet public opinion thinks that happened.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLo_mpeltE


can also watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAzMMKIspPQ

In addition, you mention that that fiance of jose just had a baby. What does that have to do with anything? What about the passengers families?

People going to jail like to tell the judge that they have a family to take care of. The judge usualy says 'you should of thought of that before you committed the crime/driven drunk (you can fill that part in)

Even after the lawsuit. im sure the lawyers will work it out and leave enough money for the family. Many babys grow up without a million dollar trust fund. A lot of money has probably 'disappeared' right now as well. Is that fair to the victim's families?

[KMayUSA6060]

Well its hard to take your opinion seriously when you start it off with ' it's pretty easy to see how someone got millions from McDonald's after said someone spilled their own hot coffee onto their lap"

What case are you referring too? If there is no specific case of that do you agree that some entity convinced you of that? You may want to see the movie 'hot coffee' that i have attached a link on youtube.

Id like to know the name of this person that actually received milions of dollars from mcdonalds due to fault on their own.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeXjd_jzZk

In addition, you mention that that fiance of jose just had a baby. What does that have to do with anything? What about the passengers families?

People going to jail like to tel the judge that they have a family to take care of. The judge usualy says 'you should of thought of that before you committed the crime/driven drunk (you can fill that part in)

Even after the lawsuit. im sure the lawyers will work it out and leave enough money for the family. Many babys grow up without a million dollar trust fund. A lot of money has probably 'disappeared' right now as well. Is that fair to the victim's families?

I have emboldened parts of your post and will answer chronologically...

1) Not sure how the beginning of my post negates the seriousness of my post.

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants. "Negligence" and "lawsuit" are synonymous. Negligence is everywhere. The alternate terminology is "human error".

3) She is a new mother, and just lost her fiance. The deaths were not fault of her own. In fact, she had NOTHING to do with it. Your defense of the other 2 families is they just lost a loved one, therefore they should be entitled to some compensation. She just lost her loved one, and her new baby lost a dad. Where's their compensation?

4) So what you're suggesting is, because she was engaged to a rich athlete, her financials should automatically become a trick-or-treat bag where everyone can come grab some? "Don't worry, there will be enough candy in the end for you to enjoy some of it."

[drcy]

The McDonald's case is a bit of a bad story. Not to say the person was without fault and stupidity, but McDonald's had been warned by authorities numerous times before the incident that their coffee was served way too hot, especially for the drive through and people carrying the food themselves. They had been told to serve the coffee cooler and that they could be liable if a customer accidentally got burned after accidentally spilling it on themselves.

And, as someone who would go to McDonald's in college (many years ago), I specifically recall thinking that their coffee was extra hot and served hotter than anywhere else.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well people to get injured all the time with people with no money and no insurance and you are right , there are no claims against those people and it doesnt matter if they have kids or a family . However if someone has money and/or insurance, they will likely get sued in a case such as Jose's


Which reminds me, there is probably insurance on the boat that is being pursued but the public will not know about that for this type of case. I discussed that earlier in this thread months ago.

Still having a family doesnt relieve anyone from a damages award or being a fault for an accident. The baby has nothing to do in terms of what happened in the accident and the victims damages. Collecting on the damages is a different story. The baby will be used as a sword, not a shield

[1952boyntoncollector]

The McDonald's case is a bit of a bad story. Not to say the person was without fault and stupidity, but McDonald's had been warned by authorities numerous times before the incident that their coffee was served way too hot, especially for the drive through and people carrying the food themselves. They had been told to serve the coffee cooler and that they could be liable if a customer accidentally got burned after accidentally spilling it on themselves.

And, as someone who would go to McDonald's in college (many years ago), I specifically recall thinking that their coffee was extra hot and served hotter than anywhere else.

right mcdonalds made a decison, they got X amount of business with their coffee which far exceeded the liability. Plus even if they did 'lose' a case, they can just make the public think it was for millions and millions of dollars and get people to back their side so they win both ways

[packs]

I find the victim blaming hard to understand. If your child died because their driver was drunk I don't know how many people would say their child deserved it.

[Stampsfan]

Trying to lighten this up a bit... :D

I guess it could have looked worse if Jose was driving his vehicle (on the way to getting to his boat)...

That way we arent worrried about who knew or should of known things.

Regardless of the topic, I think I will support the view of the person who uses proper grammar.

Hard to believe one of these guys is a lawyer, and likely works with documents all day.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Trying to lighten this up a bit... :D





Regardless of the topic, I think I will support the view of the person who uses proper grammar.

Hard to believe one of these guys is a lawyer, and likely works with documents all day.

Attack the messenger and not the message. So someone for Nazis with great net54 grammar you will support. I will go on a limb and i will support the person that is against Nazi's with terrible net54 grammar.

Count me as an anti-nazi person no matter the grammar! Just lightening things up a bit...:cool:

[Fred]

What a waste of time...

[Fred]

I find the victim blaming hard to understand. If your child died because their driver was drunk I don't know how many people would say their child deserved it.

Hey Packs - if you're dumb enough to let your child go off with a drunk then I guess that's what happens.

You can call those grown men victims, they were, but victims at their own choice and circumstance. Oh please, let's not twist this and say my post indicates that they wanted to die... sheesh...

[packs]

What do you mean let, though? These men were adults, they were also someone's children. I think you're putting a lot of distance between what happened and what it means to a family. In my opinion a drunk driver is the only person responsible for the deaths of anyone in an accident. Passengers are victims, both inside of the vehicle and outside.

[Shoeless Moe]

Put yourself in how Jose's mom feels, his fiance's view, but also put yourself in the position of the mother of one of his friends who died, and their fiance. It all depends on who's position your in, the view will be different.

You can say he was an idiot, or you can say he was a just a young guy given millions at a age where we all did things we wouldn't do now. Or to a lot lesser degree.

Everyone will have a different view on this, no one is right no one is wrong, it is what is, and the Marlins are paying the price as is my fantasy team....c'mon lighten up!

[Gobucsmagic74]

There's no definitive right or wrong answer here. If anything, I hope at the very least there's a lesson to be learned, to be passed down from one generation to the next, which simply put is that life is precious and that nothing (not one damn thing) is everlasting or guaranteed. My son just turned five and is very athletic and competitive and he's just recently started climbing on shit, and by shit I mean everything. I don't want to be this hovering parent (I'm recently divorced, so when he's with me he's mine) but when he gets up on the tabletop all I see is disaster. I mean literally all that would have to happen is loss of balance and a backward fall on tile and everything could change in an instant. I feel for everyone in this particular situation, it's unfathomable to me but maybe in the wider scope there's a lesson to be learned. I honestly just can't imagine, and the thought of putting myself in any of these parent's shoes is beyond heart wrenching, regardless of who's to blame

[1952boyntoncollector]

Put yourself in how Jose's mom feels, his fiance's view, but also put yourself in the position of the mother of one of his friends who died, and their fiance. It all depends on who's position your in, the view will be different.

You can say he was an idiot, or you can say he was a just a young guy given millions at a age where we all did things we wouldn't do now. Or to a lot lesser degree.

Everyone will have a different view on this, no one is right no one is wrong, it is what is, and the Marlins are paying the price as is my fantasy team....c'mon lighten up!

There is a right and wrong in what you can recover under the law though. People also vote to change what the law is so the opinions when translated to votes do matter. Thus, there has to be a policy on this and people cant just 'agree to disagree' The driver should be responsible and we need to stop victim shaming. If we prevent people from driving vehicles under the influence this all stops.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4325070/Student-21-killed-drunk-driving-crash-cut-half.html

Is this girl to blame for being a passenger in a car where the driver had a .10 but said he had 'two beers' and is a police officer. She was 21, how is she supposed to know that he was drunk.

[orly57]

Hey Packs - if you're dumb enough to let your child go off with a drunk then I guess that's what happens.

You can call those grown men victims, they were, but victims at their own choice and circumstance. Oh please, let's not twist this and say my post indicates that they wanted to die... sheesh...

I took this horrible event as an opportunity to teach my three young sons. Yes, they were grown men, but they were also probably star-struck young men who felt privileged to be in the presence of a superstar. They probably felt that they would look "uncool" if they didn't go along with Jose's crazy request to go out on the boat at night or if they told him to slow down. I made much dumber decisions in my early 20's than I ever did as a child. Let's all take the time to sit our children down and remind them to have a mind of their own, be leaders, rather than followers, and to take a stance even when it is not popular or cool. I can't imagine how I would feel if I lost a son due to the stupidity and irresponsibility of another. That has to be exacerbated when that same irresponsible person is getting streets named after him and all of the pity and national attention. Just a horrible thing that happened. All we can do is teach our kids, so hopefully they don't make the same type of mistake.

[hcv123]

There is a right and wrong in what you can recover under the law though. People also vote to change what the law is so the opinions when translated to votes do matter. Thus, there has to be a policy on this and people cant just 'agree to disagree' The driver should be responsible and we need to stop victim shaming. If we prevent people from driving vehicles under the influence this all stops.

Good luck! I pray for that level of possibility. One basic tenet of human nature is self sabotage - it is THE lifetime battle of human being - the only thing that varies is method and extent of the sabotage. HUGE battle from teen age to 30 (and beyond).

Driver responsibility - YES! Passenger responsibility (excepting force or lack of knowledge of the drivers state) - YES!

[Fred]

Orlando, that's it! You get it! Teach your kids the right thing and to make the best decisions.

[Snapolit1]

I took this horrible event as an opportunity to teach my three young sons. Yes, they were grown men, but they were also probably star-struck young men who felt privileged to be in the presence of a superstar. They probably felt that they would look "uncool" if they didn't go along with Jose's crazy request to go out on the boat at night or if they told him to slow down. I made much dumber decisions in my early 20's than I ever did as a child. Let's all take the time to sit our children down and remind them to have a mind of their own, be leaders, rather than followers, and to take a stance even when it is not popular or cool. I can't imagine how I would feel if I lost a son due to the stupidity and irresponsibility of another. That has to be exacerbated when that same irresponsible person is getting streets named after him and all of the pity and national attention. Just a horrible thing that happened. All we can do is teach our kids, so hopefully they don't make the same type of mistake.

Probably the most important lesson my father taught me was to walk away from situations that made me uncomfortable for any reason, not giving a crap who maligned me or called me names. Think for yourself and don't go along for anything you don't want to do. Speak up and walk away. Be your own man as you say. I've more than a few times refused to get into a car of someone wasted. Tried to take their keys away and if they were insistent just tell them I wanted no part of it.

[clydepepper]

delete

[JollyElm]

I took this horrible event as an opportunity to teach my three young sons. Yes, they were grown men, but they were also probably star-struck young men who felt privileged to be in the presence of a superstar. They probably felt that they would look "uncool" if they didn't go along with Jose's crazy request to go out on the boat at night or if they told him to slow down. I made much dumber decisions in my early 20's than I ever did as a child. Let's all take the time to sit our children down and remind them to have a mind of their own, be leaders, rather than followers, and to take a stance even when it is not popular or cool. I can't imagine how I would feel if I lost a son due to the stupidity and irresponsibility of another. That has to be exacerbated when that same irresponsible person is getting streets named after him and all of the pity and national attention. Just a horrible thing that happened. All we can do is teach our kids, so hopefully they don't make the same type of mistake.

I'm old, but can you adopt me?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Guys! I wish we could just drop what is quickly becoming an ugly fallout to a tragic occurrence.

Things like this happen every, single day...just with lesser-known folks involved.

Let's let those directly involved mourn and go forward with our lives as they should if we were the ones directly involved.


Everything else belongs - at least - in the water cooler area.


The New Season starts in TWO weeks!

Strap Yourself In and concentrate on the GAME!

I pretty sure the Marlins players arent just going to forget Jose this year. There will probably be patches and honors about him, which will bring all the other issues in the discussion as well. You cant have one without the other.

[Gary Dunaier]

While tragic as this incident is, the truth should be known as an example for our younger kids on what can happen when you think you have it all...

Agreed. This should be the "legacy," if that's the right word, of Fernandez' death.

[Joshchisox08]

I don't think that's entirely true though. Getting on a boat with someone who was drinking isn't the same as signing your life away. I don't think it's right to blame a victim either. The two men aren't dead because they were drinking or doing drugs, they're dead because Jose Fernandez was drinking and doing drugs.

This sounds like what a lawyer would say. Sounds about as concrete as you can get about the situation as well.