View Full Version : What are some good resources to learn about detecting fakes/reprints?
wnp22
09-18-2016, 02:03 AM
Being new(er) to vintage and a natural born skeptic, I've found myself doing a lot of research on how to detect fakes/forgeries/reprints/alterations. I enjoy gaining as much knowledge as possible about things I'm getting in to, so I've been having a great time browsing through old posts and the archives trying to pick up any little thing I can.
So far, I've looked through the counterfeit sections in the Archives, and I've also gone through Cycleback's site, picking up a bunch of great info along the way. I also understand that it gets easier to detect things with experience that will come down the line. I plan to scoop up some cheap graded commons and check them out with my loup and blacklight to familiarize myself with things to look for.
So, other than what's already been mentioned, what resources would you recommend to "wisen" someone up? Are there any great guides out there that you feel are can't miss? Any little tips you've picked up along the way?
Anyways, thanks for listening to me ramble. I hope this can generate some decent resources/discussion to not only help me, but also others who are somewhat new to vintage, or even people that just stumble in to our lovely little corner of the internet.
Our archives has a lot of good stuff as you mentioned. David Cycleback also has some great info with is housed there too. I would say experience after those things as well as your continued reading. But holding real and fake cards in your hand is the best way to learn, imo....
Buy from knowledgeable sellers.
For T206s, Goudeys, get a few cheap commons first. Reprints and fakes will be distinctly different than the real cards.
Learn to identify printing processes, so you can tell both antique and modern printing. This is of particular help when you are looking at a card you are unfamiliar with.
Ask for second opinions, such as from people on this board.
If a card or other paper/card ephemera smells musty, that's a good sign.
A year ago I came out with a new guide to antique printing processes and authentication of prints. It is a general printing guide, but covers the processes for cards and for those collecting other items like programs, signs, etc. Baseball cards are prints, just little ones on cardboard. The guide is in pdf and well illustrated. It's concise, but a pretty complete guide for the area and I wrote it in part so I wouldn't have to write about it anymore.
printing guide (https://cycleback.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/cycleback_authenticating_prints.pdf)
JustinD
09-18-2016, 10:23 AM
Love that printing guide, thank you!
Beastmode
09-18-2016, 10:30 AM
That printing guide was amazing. Great read. In fact, a must read for anyone seriously collecting vintage or high grade cards. This guide should be pinned to the top of the main vintage category.
curious if David has outsourced his skills to the TPG's? I would trust his authentication before those bozo's.
Maybe I missed it, but a chapter on trimmed cards would be great. Identifying trimmed edges and the characteristics of the different papers that are trimmed; and the type of cutting tools used over the years.
bravos4evr
09-18-2016, 10:32 AM
what they said plus, if a crease on a card looks new, it probably is and this is a dead giveaway that the card is fake.
also, if yer gonna do T206, learn all the backs, the proper colors they came in and the factory series, sounds like a lot but many fakers don't pay attention to that stuff (and many reprints might be innocently sold as genuine by noobs)
steve B
09-18-2016, 06:50 PM
Buy from knowledgeable sellers.
For T206s, Goudeys, get a few cheap commons first. Reprints and fakes will be distinctly different than the real cards.
Learn to identify printing processes, so you can tell both antique and modern printing. This is of particular help when you are looking at a card you are unfamiliar with.
Ask for second opinions, such as from people on this board.
If a card or other paper/card ephemera smells musty, that's a good sign.
A year ago I came out with a new guide to antique printing processes and authentication of prints. It is a general printing guide, but covers the processes for cards and for those collecting other items like programs, signs, etc. Baseball cards are prints, just little ones on cardboard. The guide is in pdf and well illustrated. It's concise, but a pretty complete guide for the area and I wrote it in part so I wouldn't have to write about it anymore.
printing guide (https://cycleback.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/cycleback_authenticating_prints.pdf)
Just read about the first 50 pages, and that's a really great guide. There's a few minor points I might not entirely agree with, but getting into them would be rather technical and would only serve to create confusion in the target audience.
So few guides of any sort manage to impart the technical basics without getting too complex for the average reader. This one is excellent at getting the main points across clearly. Pretty much anyone collecting any thing printed or with a printed element (Furniture or musical instrument labels that sort of thing) should down load it and read it occasionally.
One of my hobbies there's a series of very technical articles that are from a few years ago and while my memory is still halfway decent I reread them completely about every 3-6 months. And at that I still find things that have taken on a slightly different meaning.
Steve B
My saying is "An 800 page beginner's guide isn't a beginner's guide."
david_l
09-19-2016, 06:37 PM
If a card or other paper/card ephemera smells musty, that's a good sign.
With all due respect, I completely disagree with you. As someone who has a bit of an archivist background, musty smells are very often a sign of mold. Mold should be avoided at all costs as it can spread from one card (or paper, etc.) to others. Collections can get destroyed via mold. The only real way to combat mold is preventative.
Furthermore, I can create a musty smell in a matter of weeks. I would hardly use it date anything. In my opinion, the smell of older tobacco would be a much better clue of age than a musty smell (although it would certainly not be a definitive clue).
--David Luft--
I meant old must, not that new kind you can buy at Rite Aid.
RCMcKenzie
09-20-2016, 03:30 AM
It's hard to say...the people on the board are the experts in the field, without question....Take for example the "Black Swamp Find"...I liken it to someone finding 300 Vermeer's. If someone found 1 Vermeer, the art world would have it's skeptics...If someone found 300 Vermeer's, most would not even bother investigating it. JMHO
Mold should be avoided at all costs as it can spread from one card (or paper, etc.) to others. Collections can get destroyed via mold. The only real way to combat mold is preventative.
Any suggestions on how to eliminate or prevent mold?
david_l
09-20-2016, 10:32 AM
I meant old must, not that new kind you can buy at Rite Aid.
Yeah, I know what you meant. That's actually what I'm taking exception with.
Any suggestions on how to eliminate or prevent mold?
Like I said, really the best suggestions are all preventative measures.
(1) It's best to know how to recognize the signs that there could be mold on an item.
(2) It is important to examine your collection periodically looking for mold as well as other developing problematic issues.
(3) It is crucial to be cautious when adding any foreign items to your collection. That last part is why I find the blanket statement that "a musty smell is a good thing" to be troublesome.
Honestly though, don't take it from me. I'm some guy on a message board that you've never met. The Society of American Archivists (SAA) and the American Library Association (ALA) have a plethora of resources regarding recognizing mold and doing item-level assessments. They're also a great resource for understanding preservation strategies and developing disaster plans. In my opinion, these resources are invaluable. A web search will reveal a lot of that info.
Just a note here. I'm not trying to start a flame-war or put anybody down. I just want to contribute to you all making your own informed preservation and collection decisions.
Oh, and as far as recognizing fakes. Take your time and learn about the printing techniques of the time. Such information will be invaluable when making an informed buying decision.
---David Luft--
I know mold and know it's bad. I was just making a joke.
The post was about how to identify a reprint, and that's all I was addressing. The smell of mold is a sign a card isn't a recent reprint. Rust and corrosion on the back of a pin and foxing on a cabinet card are signs they are old.
I think conservation of baseball cards is a good topic to discuss, considering many don't like altering a card at all. Movie posters, etc are regularly restored, including deacidified for mold. Someone should write an article on this. A friend and Net54 is an expert on conservation of documents and knows a lot more about it (and the issues) than I do.
david_l
09-20-2016, 11:37 AM
The smell of mold is a sign a card isn't a recent reprint.
This will be my last post on the subject as I'm pretty sure I'm just beating a dead horse at this point. A musty smell (and god forbid, mold) is not a sign that a card is an original and I think one should be cautious in making such a statement for reasons that I've already pointed out.
I can buy one of those fake Wagner cards on the 'bay, leave it in my basement for a few months and it would have just as much of a musty smell as any vintage item in question. Heck, leave a reprint card in a damp area for a few years and see what happens. It's still not an original no matter how moldy or musty smelling it appears upon inspection. We're talking mold here not stalactites.
David Luft
I said it's a sign not proof, but will let the issue drop too. We've both made our points. If people wish to mentally cross off my sniff test, that's fine by me.
david_l
09-20-2016, 12:42 PM
@ drcy
I always enjoy the opportunity to talk about preservation issues. Thanks for the conversation. Best of luck with all your collecting endeavors in the future!
I said it's a sign not proof, but will let the issue drop too. We've both made our points. If people wish to mentally cross off my sniff test, that's fine by me.
For the record, I was one of the first adopters (*I am aware of) of the smell test. I still use it and everything else. A lot of times it's the whole picture that doesn't add up, not just one or two things. Knowledge is king. Thanks to you and the other David for the discussion. It probably helped some folks.
steve B
09-20-2016, 03:35 PM
Back when I could still smell reliably, there were some smells that were good and some not so good as far as originality goes.
The smell of printing ink - Not good unless the item is rather new.
Mold- Not so good, as has already been covered.
There's a hard to describe "old paper" smell that's usually a good sign. I have a hard time smelling it now, unless I'm in a roomful of old paper. (And since it's a smell of a decomposition product, it's a mixed bag -not bad for original, not all that good for preservation.
Smells that shouldn't be there - Wax, Solvents, etc. usually point to problems. (For paper, I almost bought a bat that was cool, but had been cleaned with lemon pledge. Wasn't a factor in the decision, but it was a bit strange )
We really should have a thread on preservation/conservation. I've read a lot about the formal methods, and constantly have to balance those with the reality of being an average person living in a house from the 1880's.
Steve B