Interesting Ebay Bidding

[dariushou]

First, I would like to say hi to everyone. Been kind of hiding in the shadows and rarely post (wish this was not my first).

Anyhow, does someone know why the winner of this baseball card a few months ago is bidding up the exact same card he/she won in May? By exact, i mean, EXACT--same PSA Cert.

Did this person win the card then decide to sell it and then buy it again in a 3 to 4 month period, lol? This is just one of over a dozen auctions that i checked and ALL of which demonstrated similar behavior by this bidder:

OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/351725481279?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 5/15/16
Ebay Item: 351725481279
Amount: $221.00
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471732


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kelloggs-Rick-Monday-73-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401182616829

Look who is bidding it up. Just no shame...actually winning a lot of the ones i checked.

Maybe i'm completely wrong, but this looks incredibly odd to me.

[Neal]

Interesting ......

[JustinD]

Pretty sketchy.

I hope Brent sees this thread.

[bnorth]

Pretty sketchy.

I hope Brent sees this thread.

or just emails him because he does not see every thread on here.

[Leon]

Kind of looks sketchy to me too..

First, I would like to say hi to everyone. Been kind of hiding in the shadows and rarely post (wish this was not my first).

Anyhow, does someone know why the winner of this baseball card a few months ago is bidding up the exact same card he/she won in May? By exact, i mean, EXACT--same PSA Cert.

Did this person win the card then decide to sell it and then buy it again in a 3 to 4 month period, lol? This is just one of over a dozen auctions that i checked and ALL of which demonstrated similar behavior by this bidder:

OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/351725481279?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 5/15/16
Ebay Item: 351725481279
Amount: $221.00
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471732


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kelloggs-Rick-Monday-73-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/401182616829

Look who is bidding it up. Just no shame...actually winning a lot of the ones i checked.

Maybe i'm completely wrong, but this looks incredibly odd to me.

[Stonepony]

Remember, EBay and Brent have teamed up and instituted top secret " powerful tools" to stop illegal bidding practices in his auctions. So no worries, all is fine.

[Leon]

The powerful tools = emailing Brent :) .... (who does take action, btw)


Remember, EBay and Brent have teamed up and instituted top secret " powerful tools" to stop illegal bidding practices in his auctions. So no worries, all is fine.

[ALR-bishop]

First post and controversy right off the bat. :)

Welcome Darius

[JustinD]

First post and controversy right off the bat. :)

Welcome Darius

LOL.

Maybe the guy is just trying to save the buyer's remorse for spending 225 bucks for a Kellogg's Rick Monday because it's in a plastic slab.

When the crash comes, it's these incredibly overvalued "high grade" commons that are getting pushed off the life boat first. I just don't get that people don't understand the reason they are "low pop" is that only a couple people want to actually pay to grade a Joe Shlabotnik, it doesn't mean there isn't a million of them.

[Bram99]

I think I have a Joe Shlabotnik Rookie Pacific Coast League Winky Dinky Dog Franks issue. Extremely low population. Let me check.

[MattyC]

LOL.

Maybe the guy is just trying to save the buyer's remorse for spending 225 bucks for a Kellogg's Rick Monday because it's in a plastic slab.

When the crash comes, it's these incredibly overvalued "high grade" commons that are getting pushed off the life boat first. I just don't get that people don't understand the reason they are "low pop" is that only a couple people want to actually pay to grade a Joe Shlabotnik, it doesn't mean there isn't a million of them.

People do get it; they are just collecting what they want to collect.

[JustinD]

People do get it; they are just collecting what they want to collect.

Hey Matty, I wasn't shooting down those that are collecting for the love of it.

I am all for people collecting what they want and I admit to being an offender myself by having a registry set for Parrish. I do draw a line in the sand on paying realistically for these.

It's a fine line sometimes between those that are collecting cards and those really just collecting plastic holders.

After seeing your collection at times, I fully believe you understand collecting the card. It's just seeing people pay multiples of thousands for an off centered 10 for the impact on their registry and passing up a better 8 because the grader was blind that day that seems like the definition of madness.

[Brent Huigens]

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

[nsaddict]

Brent does deserve kudos for posting here and taking action. I wish ebay would have the balls to apply stricter bidding policies. As an example, bidding privileges should be revoked with too many bid retractions. Wouldn't be a cure all, but a start in the right direction. But we know they would never do such a thing.

[JustinD]

Thank you Brent.

You do deserve kudos for taking action.

[dclarkraiders]

Brent,

Thanks for taking action.

Duane

[Beastmode]

Thank you Brent.

You do deserve kudos for taking action.


Yes he does. Unfortunately, we can't alert the other non-ebay AH's of this same practice because we can't see the bidders. So let's just assume this practice is rampant over there until otherwise noted.

[JustinD]

Trust me, it's fully assumed.

[dariushou]

Brent, thanks for removing those bids on those few items, but this bidder 7**0 is shilling a ton more of your auctions. Basically, just about all of your 71 Kelloggs that you have up. This bidder is the consignor (he just won these exact same cards). Another example,



OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/142049996438?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 7/19/16
Ebay Item: 142049996438
Amount: $187.50
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25731942


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/142107799983


As you can see, the winning bidder of the old auction is bidding up the current auction. Another question, did this same bidder submit the McCovey back in July? If you look at that original auction, he was trying to shill it too. His/her bidding for that original auction makes no sense if you are trying to win the item. I can bring up over a dozen examples like this and i am not even looking that deep into it.

[bnorth]

Brent, thanks for removing those bids on those few items, but this bidder 7**0 is shilling a ton more of your auctions. Basically, just about all of your 71 Kelloggs that you have up. This bidder is the consignor (he just won these exact same cards). Another example,



OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/142049996438?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 7/19/16
Ebay Item: 142049996438
Amount: $187.50
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471731


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/142107799983


As you can see, the winning bidder of the old auction is bidding up the current auction. Another question, did this same bidder submit the McCovey back in July? If you look at that original auction, he was trying to shill it too. His/her bidding for that original auction makes no sense if you are trying to win the item. I can bring up over a dozen examples like this and i am not even looking that deep into it.

I sincerely hope you are emailing Brent with this information and not just posting it on here.

dariushou you are doing a great service to the collecting community, Thank You!!!

[bnorth]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***0 ( 1797Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 1971 Kellogg's Willie McCovey #33 PSA 10 GEM MINT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1987
Items bid on: 551
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 25% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 19

This is the shill bidder mentioned in the earlier posts. 19 bid retractions in 6 months.:eek: With that bid history he should have been blocked by Brent and not allowed to keep bidding on his own items.

[Neal]

good to hear

[irv]

I sincerely hope you are emailing Brent with this information and not just posting it on here.

dariushou you are doing a great service to the collecting community, Thank You!!!


X2!

[jmb]

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401178458827&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

[bnorth]

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401178458827&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

Problem is you don't have the loyal bidders PWCC does.:rolleyes: Hell they even make threads on the main page about how they ship in a timely manner.;)

[Beastmode]

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401178458827&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

you make a good point. and you have a "make-offer" on your listing. Where are those underbidders?

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't bid 2x over VCP on cards that appear on the market regularly every two months. But the person that does do this (3***x), either has a shitload of money and doesn't care, or deserves to be shilled by (r***b).

[pingman59]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***0 ( 1797Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 1971 Kellogg's Willie McCovey #33 PSA 10 GEM MINT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1987
Items bid on: 551
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 25% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 19

This is the shill bidder mentioned in the earlier posts. 19 bid retractions in 6 months.:eek: With that bid history he should have been blocked by Brent and not allowed to keep bidding on his own items.

7***0 retracted his bid on this 71K #1 Simpson PSA 9: http://www.ebay.com/itm/401182615227?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l5997&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI401182615227.N34.S1.R1.TR10

[nsaddict]

It appears his Simpson bid wasn't retracted but cancelled by Brent.

[dariushou]

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 142107799808. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

-Darius Hou.seal

[bnorth]

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 141893244499. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

I completely understand your emotions. It is truly sad how full of scumbags our hobby is. I have a problem getting caught up in it sometimes also. Hell finding a honest business/seller is like finding a needle in a haystack.

I have to take a break every once in a while to remember why I collect and try to forget about all the scum trying to make a buck by lying, cheating, and stealing.

[Stonepony]

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 141893244499. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

-Darius Hou.seal

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=226296
Again...have faith in the "powerful tools" please

[Thekid1]

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

Awesome Brent. Quick response and action!

[rjackson44]

this will never end ,,feebay is too greedy

[dariushou]

So i was on the CU boards today and came about a post with the title "Pwcc Description" and of course i couldn't resist. Someone pointed out a 1954 Aaron RC that ended last night. Of course it took all of 2 minutes to realize it was shilled. The same person who won the exact same card on June 12, 2016 (same psa cert number) was bidding on the auction that ended November 22, 2016. Anyhow, here is what i posted over there. When will this stop!!

"
Anyone see this one end last night, lol.

http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-Hank-Aaron-ROOKIE-RC-128-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-/142177026548?rmvSB=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-Hank-Aaron-ROOKIE-RC-128-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-/142177026548?rmvSB=true)

Is it me or isn't the above card the same exact card as the one below that ended on June 12, 2016 (same psa cert). Oh, wow, correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the guy who won on June 12th was bidding up the auction from last night. What a joke? This happens all of the time with PWCC auctions. I don't know what's real or what's fake anymore. One offs can happen, but please...it happens all of the time. And this is just the most obvious type of shills. Sure, someone is going to come on here and say the guy had sellers remorse and wanted to buy his card back.. yeah right! "

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/401130680730?rmvSB=true

[Snapolit1]

As someone schooled me recently, if you don't shill your auctions on PWCC you will probably do quite poorly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

More notable is how much the price has dropped in a few months.

[dariushou]

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.

[HawkFan70]

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Chris Helmers

[Leon]

Brent and team are doing a great job.
As you are new you might not have noticed the bold print at the top of every page (just look above here) so here it is again, for the future....(and for all new members who might not know)
If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post.

Even if the opinion is a positive note a members full name needs to be next to it per the rules.
thanks

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. We also consigned a 1952 Topps Mays and it went for more than we expected. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[HawkFan70]

Sorry Leon.....I added my name.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.


There are many BIN's as well that are fake on ebay as well.

[KendallCat]

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

[1952boyntoncollector]

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad


I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

[Snapolit1]

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

I think shilling your card at an auction house is much riskier. If the increments are getting up to a few hundred dollar range, often times one bid pushes it over the top. And if you are talking a $50,000 or a $75,000 card, there is always the big risk that the next incremental step up the ladder is the end of it. Would be a bitch to be the high bidder on a $100,000 card you really didn't want. Even if you can settle up with your friend later, your still paying the auction house a vig of $10,000 or $20,000.

[Republicaninmass]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

[Zach Wheat]

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

Bravo, Brent

[KendallCat]

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

The last 5 sales of the the 55 Clemente in PSA 7 have been as follows:

$7168
$8811
$9300
$7788
$8601

Go back a few months to June/July and sales for the same grade were as follows:

$25000
$23109
$27000
$31070
$25100


A couple of these I know are legit sales and know the buyer(s), but the interesting thing on these is that two months earlier these cards could be had for $7000-9000. Interesting thing was on the PSA 8's of the Clemente the same bidder, a***t, came in second on almost every PSA 8 during the May-August time period. This bidder had 63 bid retractions in 6 months!! Not only that rather than snipe auctions he would bid them up from day one and continue to bid basically against himself and lose. Think about it - if you really wanted to win why continued bidding it up, losing every auction, have 63 retractions.... Maybe why someone got banned from Heritage, Goodwin, REA, and for a short time PWCC.

Notice the price changes in the market for Clemente, Koufax, and Rose from March/April, huge spike in May-August, and then plummet from August to now. Some had to do with people speculating certain high end examples in high grades pulling up the lower grades, but a lot of it was manipulation and fraud using retractions. If they want to clean up the industry once you have 3 retractions you are out for 6 months on eBay. Next time it happens it is for a year.

Keith Conrad

[dariushou]

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-Roberto-Clemente-ROOKIE-RC-164-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-/401181003187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-164-Roberto-Clemente-HOF-Pirates-RC-Rookie-PSA-7-GREAT-INVESTMENT-/371775229522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[irv]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

I asked this a while ago but received no answer.

The question was, if you were outbid and then moved on and purchased/spent your money on other cards, then were told you were now the high bidder, as the previous highest bidder retracted, are you now obligated to purchase that card? :confused:

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-Roberto-Clemente-ROOKIE-RC-164-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-/401181003187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-164-Roberto-Clemente-HOF-Pirates-RC-Rookie-PSA-7-GREAT-INVESTMENT-/371775229522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

Great observations! It is something I admittedly don't look at or even think about looking at, (until now) but at the same time, I don't play in this high end part of the collecting world so I am glad that there is a good chance I haven't purchased any shilled up cards.

Personally, I hate reading that these types of things go on, as, imo, they are only hurting the hobby. :(

[dariushou]

It is sad, very sad indeed. Unfortunately, the above examples are just the obvious ones. I've been collecting off and on for 30 odd years and what i've seen lately and over the past couple of years is just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm no expert on ebay bidding, but i find it odd that most, if not all, of PWCC auctions get early bids and strong ones at that. High feedback/ low feedback...it doesn't matter. PWCC gets them. It didn't take me long back in 1998 when i started ebaying to realize that my early bids were actually pushing the price higher. At least that's what my inner self was telling me so i started sniping or doing BIN, only. I know there are valid reason for bidding early and by god it is an auction. One valid reason I hear is that early bids could scare some away because they don't want to compete. But the basis for that reason is to get good deals. Does anyone get good deals, at least consistently with PWCC auctions? Maybe, i don't know. Some may also like to put a low bid in to put it on their radar in "My Ebay"...who knows...i've done that.

Anyhow, tonight, i wanted to spend all of 10 minutes seeing who were some of the early bidders on some of PWCC's latest auctions. I didn't care if it was a high dollar item...just PWCC's latest auctions (put on last night or early today). I mainly looked at a few of the 1950 Callahans and 1949-1950 Bowmans.

I'm by no means saying what i saw constitutes shilling...way to early to tell. I will be honest and admit i only looked at a few of the auctions PWCC put on last night from each of the above issues and only if they already had more than 2 bids.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys bidding had a ton of bid retractions. I was actually quite surprised by auctions having 1 to 5 bids just littered with guys/gals having double digit retractions. A lot of these are fast approaching that massive 25 limit PWCC set for themselves recently. All in 6 long months. I think i've had 1 retraction in 18 years.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401231318043&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142189184488&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Bowman-Leo-Durocher-220-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/351913844928

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Bowman-Al-Evans-SCRIPT-NAME-ON-BACK-132-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/351913843381

Some of the culprits that had the massive bid retractions are below (not all are represented in the above 4 auctions -- i think all but 3). If you poke around the above stated issues then you can find these gals/guys bidding on multiple items and more bidders with similar retractions. I ignored those with very high bid activity, unless they had high bid retractions (high bid retractions was the only thing i was looking for).

Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
i***i.........................997................. ........20
k***g.......................784................... ......16
c***t.......................434................... ......11
8***H......................117.................... .....12
U***I.......................9347.................. .....17
8***7......................5772................... .....13
a***m.....................24193................... ....18
o***p......................39699.................. .....17
c***n......................1936................... .......9

[irv]

It is sad, very sad indeed. Unfortunately, the above examples are just the obvious ones. I've been collecting off and on for 30 odd years and what i've seen lately and over the past couple of years is just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm no expert on ebay bidding, but i find it odd that most, if not all, of PWCC auctions get early bids and strong ones at that. High feedback/ low feedback...it doesn't matter. PWCC gets them. It didn't take me long back in 1998 when i started ebaying to realize that my early bids were actually pushing the price higher. At least that's what my inner self was telling me so i started sniping or doing BIN, only. I know there are valid reason for bidding early and by god it is an auction. One valid reason I hear is that early bids could scare some away because they don't want to compete. But the basis for that reason is to get good deals. Does anyone get good deals, at least consistently with PWCC auctions? Maybe, i don't know. Some may also like to put a low bid in to put it on their radar in "My Ebay"...who knows...i've done that.

Anyhow, tonight, i wanted to spend all of 10 minutes seeing who were some of the early bidders on some of PWCC's latest auctions. I didn't care if it was a high dollar item...just PWCC's latest auctions (put on last night or early today). I mainly looked at a few of the 1950 Callahans and 1949-1950 Bowmans.

I'm by no means saying what i saw constitutes shilling...way to early to tell. I will be honest and admit i only looked at a few of the auctions PWCC put on last night from each of the above issues and only if they already had more than 2 bids.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys bidding had a ton of bid retractions. I was actually quite surprised by auctions having 1 to 5 bids just littered with guys/gals having double digit retractions. A lot of these are fast approaching that massive 25 limit PWCC set for themselves recently. All in 6 long months. I think i've had 1 retraction in 18 years.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=401231318043&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=142189184488&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Bowman-Leo-Durocher-220-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/351913844928

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-Bowman-Al-Evans-SCRIPT-NAME-ON-BACK-132-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC-/351913843381

Some of the culprits that had the massive bid retractions are below (not all are represented in the above 4 auctions -- i think all but 3). If you poke around the above stated issues then you can find these gals/guys bidding on multiple items and more bidders with similar retractions. I ignored those with very high bid activity, unless they had high bid retractions (high bid retractions was the only thing i was looking for).

Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
i***i.........................997................. ........20
k***g.......................784................... ......16
c***t.......................434................... ......11
8***H......................117.................... .....12
U***I.......................9347.................. .....17
8***7......................5772................... .....13
a***m.....................24193................... ....18
o***p......................39699.................. .....17
c***n......................1936................... .......9

I have wondered the same thing (1st bold) but I do so only for what you mentioned (2nd bold)

You definitely have some interesting info/observations there. I am going to have to start paying closer attention to all auctions!

Thanks for the info :)

[Exhibitman]

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

[Snapolit1]

+1

It was a classic manipulated bubble on everything except perhaps the 52 Topps Mantle.

I so don't believe that. Yes, there were clearly some shenanigans on certain cards. I think we all agree on that. The market as a whole for high end rare vintage cards? Going up. No doubt in my mind. Unless the whole economy collapses like 2008, prices generally keep going higher.

[dariushou]

The whole thing was manipulated. Not just key rookie cards. Look at my previous post. Pick an issue or card it doesn't matter. PWCC's auctions are tainted in my opinion and they sell everything. It's also a relative argument. If a bunch of cards go up in price, such as key rookies, it tends to bring other cards up, too. Then it busts and everyone holding the cards who bought high loses out. If ebay gave more clarity we could easily show a lot more examples of fraud -- don't forget that you can't see anything after like 6-months, other than the image through VCP. It'll take lawsuits and handcuffs to enlighten everyone to the extent of the manipulation and fraud. Unfortunately, people's memory is short term and don't remember shill rings hauled off to jail in the past. The problems only got worse.

editing this to add that i just went to the latest pwcc auctions they put up today (1955 topps)-- i literally clicked only like 10 auctions, including 1 of the clemente's. Some of the bidders i listed in my previous post were of course bidding, but I found a few others with tons of retractions in last 6-months. Seriously, who has this many retractions and do they all come together and bid on PWCC auctions. Again, ignored the guys with huge bid activity with pwcc, unless they had a ton of retractions:


Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
7***0.........................1846................ . ........17
f***0.........................780................. .. ......11
1***a.........................391................. .. ......11
o***j..........................1935............... ..... .....9

I would post links to the auctions and can if you really want me too, but just click on a few with more than 2 bids. There are tons of them...not like a needle in a haystack.

[KendallCat]

I so don't believe that. Yes, there were clearly some shenanigans on certain cards. I think we all agree on that. The market as a whole for high end rare vintage cards? Going up. No doubt in my mind. Unless the whole economy collapses like 2008, prices generally keep going higher.

There was major rigging on key players and several folks figured it out independently and compared notes. Without VCP it is very difficult to do, but with VCP I could go through and see a distinct pattern of rigging auctions and shilling. Don't believe it then go do this and report back. Pick Rose rookies, Clemente, Koufax, Ryan...

Check prices from March to now and tell me what caused these cards to go up 2-3 fold in value?

Then tell me what economic or card market forces caused them to drop from September to now, and basically all gains were lost and then some during that time. Keep in mind the US stock market is at a record high right now, so it is not like 2000-01 or 2008-09 when the market indices dropped big time.

I will hang up a listen. Here is a chart to help get you started.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag449/Conrad2141/image_zpsjnayqzgq.jpeg

[Snapolit1]

In the past I put down a ton of early bids on PWCC cards. Just so they show up on my eBay bidding list. I bid early and forget about them for a few weeks. I get outbid quickly and then just have a marker down and move on. Do the same thing for most of the major AHs. I would ascribe zero to early bidding.

[Snapolit1]

I think lost of cards from the 50s and 60s were jerked around big time. I don't see that craziness with prewar.

To suggest that the run up in every card was some manipulated scam with the exception of one card, the 52 Mantle, is crazy talk.

If anyone thought spending mega bucks on a Reggie Jackson rookie card was a good idea I feel for them.

[irv]

The whole thing was manipulated. Not just key rookie cards. Look at my previous post. Pick an issue or card it doesn't matter. PWCC's auctions are tainted in my opinion and they sell everything. It's also a relative argument. If a bunch of cards go up in price, such as key rookies, it tends to bring other cards up, too. Then it busts and everyone holding the cards who bought high loses out. If ebay gave more clarity we could easily show a lot more examples of fraud -- don't forget that you can't see anything after like 6-months, other than the image through VCP. It'll take lawsuits and handcuffs to enlighten everyone to the extent of the manipulation and fraud. Unfortunately, people's memory is short term and don't remember shill rings hauled off to jail in the past. The problems only got worse.

editing this to add that i just went to the latest pwcc auctions they put up today (1955 topps)-- i literally clicked only like 10 auctions, including 1 of the clemente's. Some of the bidders i listed in my previous post were of course bidding, but I found a few others with tons of retractions in last 6-months. Seriously, who has this many retractions and do they all come together and bid on PWCC auctions. Again, ignored the guys with huge bid activity with pwcc, unless they had a ton of retractions:


Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
7***0.........................1846................ . ........17
f***0.........................780................. .. ......11
1***a.........................391................. .. ......11
o***j..........................1935............... ..... .....9

I would post links to the auctions and can if you really want me too, but just click on a few with more than 2 bids. There are tons of them...not like a needle in a haystack.

Assuming everyone is reset to "0" after 6 months, it would/will be interesting to see how long they take to get their retraction count up again?

[dariushou]

In the past I put down a ton of early bids on PWCC cards. Just so they show up on my eBay bidding list. I bid early and forget about them for a few weeks. I get outbid quickly and then just have a marker down and move on. Do the same thing for most of the major AHs. I would ascribe zero to early bidding.

I pointed out guys who bid early AND had high bid retractions. Do you have a lot of bid retractions? You also state you get outbid early which means you were probably trying to get a good deal -- how often do you get a good deal on PWCC auction.

You mention prewar. Here's my take on that. Prices that go up for other cards -- lets say 1955 clemente or 1956 clemente or whatever -- will impact other cards. If you were to bid on a Ty Cobb, you may think to yourself that other cards, even newer cards like 1955 Clemente shot up so why not the Cobb. My point is that a bubble (no matter the creation) brings everything up... well except for the obvious losers --junk wax :) I have not looked at a ton of cards prewar, but I would highly doubt they were not impacted, especially the ones that are traded frequently.

I like Keith's chart from VCP. I'm going to expand on it a little bit to highlight what has happened over the past several years. Price appreciation in a small market (baseball cards) is easily manipulated. I'll accompany that with an internet bubble chart (NASDAQ). Take note that in a heavily traded market, like the NASDAQ, the index shot up to about 2.5-3x the normal path (NOT 50-100x like what we have seen in the much smaller baseball card market which is easily manipulated). Then, my favorite,the typical bubble path chart.


Here is the expanded Clemente Chart:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ai0sy0xsqs061t0/clemente2.jpg?dl=1


Here is the NASDAQ Internet Bubble Chart:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv5uebgmgos94ll/DotCOM.jpg?dl=1

Here is my favorite Bubble Chart:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygrew76mno1cp6x/bubble-phases2.jpg?dl=1

[Exhibitman]

I agree with Darius that there was a bubble, whatever the causes. The charts are true. And it does ripple. People who cannot afford an 8 drop down to compete for a 6 and so on. People who are concerned they will be shut out grab what they can afford. Some prices were too low historically speaking, that is true. The Aaron rookie in a 7 sat for years under $2k.

I sold into some bubbles and did ok. The T206 error craze for example. The silly novelty cards I liked fishing out of commons piles brought huge money for a while. I bought into a few bubbles too and got my ass kicked.

[ezez420]

Where is Mr Bob and his hotcakes and sausage? Havent heard him open up trap lately.


What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[Beastmode]

The whole thing was manipulated. Not just key rookie cards. Look at my previous post. Pick an issue or card it doesn't matter. PWCC's auctions are tainted in my opinion and they sell everything. It's also a relative argument. If a bunch of cards go up in price, such as key rookies, it tends to bring other cards up, too. Then it busts and everyone holding the cards who bought high loses out. If ebay gave more clarity we could easily show a lot more examples of fraud -- don't forget that you can't see anything after like 6-months, other than the image through VCP. It'll take lawsuits and handcuffs to enlighten everyone to the extent of the manipulation and fraud. Unfortunately, people's memory is short term and don't remember shill rings hauled off to jail in the past. The problems only got worse.

editing this to add that i just went to the latest pwcc auctions they put up today (1955 topps)-- i literally clicked only like 10 auctions, including 1 of the clemente's. Some of the bidders i listed in my previous post were of course bidding, but I found a few others with tons of retractions in last 6-months. Seriously, who has this many retractions and do they all come together and bid on PWCC auctions. Again, ignored the guys with huge bid activity with pwcc, unless they had a ton of retractions:


Bidder............Feedback........... 6-MO bid Retraction
7***0.........................1846................ . ........17
f***0.........................780................. .. ......11
1***a.........................391................. .. ......11
o***j..........................1935............... ..... .....9

I would post links to the auctions and can if you really want me too, but just click on a few with more than 2 bids. There are tons of them...not like a needle in a haystack.

This is fucking ridiculous. How simple can it be for ebay to get this under control. it clearly happens this way by design. I do a lot of bids with PWCC and still am very happy with their service. I snipe a number and walk away, so whatever these bastards are doing doesn't affect me because I bid what I'm willing to pay.

Shilling, retracting, bid rigging, vote rigging, etc, has been going on since the cave-man. Keep your sanity and bid what you think the card is worth, and assume you will be shilled. And don't come on here crying about it later.

Keep in mind, IMO, we've been in a bull-market for cards 5-8 years. When the tables turn, these guys will be eating shit for dinner, and I'll be serving it.

[Exhibitman]

"When the tables turn, these guys will be eating shit for dinner, and I'll be serving it"

Hey John, don't hold back on your feelings, it is not healthy. :D

[Snapolit1]

I'm guessing that anyone who was buying high five figure or six figure cards and then fraudulently running up the market with a group of like minded others in the hopes of making a bundle on a quick flip probably isn't the kind of person whose going to be living under a highway overpass in a cardboard box anytime soon.

My genuine fear is that this happened with respect to a pretty narrow band of post war cards (I think we can name them) but that a large scandal hits Fortune magazine or something like that and all of a sudden all of card collecting go into the crapper.

Yes, I know some of you guys are collectors, unfettered by earthy concerns on valuation, and just look at these as sweet childhood relics, untroubled by any drop in market value. I realize that.

[stlcardsfan]

How simple can it be for ebay to get this under control. it clearly happens this way by design

Huh?

[Snapolit1]

Retract more than 3 bids in a 90 day period and your account is suspended for 90 days. That's a start.

[Beastmode]

"When the tables turn, these guys will be eating shit for dinner, and I'll be serving it"

Hey John, don't hold back on your feelings, it is not healthy. :D

I feel a lot better now, thank you.