Thoughts on Kaepernick & the national anthem

[EvilKing00]

I had a argument last night with my neighbor about Kaepernick not standing for the national anthem. Just wanted to see everyone thoughts here. Maybe just a vote and no posts so we dont get too heated up! lol :eek:

[rgpete]

He should remember all our service men and women, civilians who lost their lives for this COUNTRY and FLAG since our Independence so we can have our freedom today. We are not perfect, by any means but it only takes a few and the media to make it worse for all. Im glad he's not starting

[Eric72]

114 million dollar arm. Ten cent head. And that was before all of this.

I wonder what his stance is regarding Chip's smoothies and sleep monitors.

[HRBAKER]

I'm most offended that he thinks that I would give two sh*ts what he thinks.

[Exhibitman]

He is engaging in core political speech 100% protected by the First Amendment and anyone who wants to punish him for it needs to go back to school and understand the freedoms that the song represents. He isn't disrespecting the people who defend this country. He is engaging in the activity they fight to protect. Our most precious freedom is the right to be an American Idiot. Voltaire said it best: I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It

[Peter_Spaeth]

He cares about social issues and seems willing to take a stand which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about most self-centered pampered athletes (and entertainers) just living in the four corners of their personal ego trips.

[steve B]

He's got a right to protest, and that's something we should see as important. While I don't totally agree with what he's saying, there's always room to improve things.

Part of me thinks it's a better thing than blocking highways or burning down the corner store, part of me thinks it's a bit of grandstanding empty gesture. If he donates a big chunk of money to his cause as he's said he will I think that might be more effective.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

He's got a right to protest, and that's something we should see as important. While I don't totally agree with what he's saying, there's always room to improve things.

Part of me thinks it's a better thing than blocking highways or burning down the corner store, part of me thinks it's a bit of grandstanding empty gesture. If he donates a big chunk of money to his cause as he's said he will I think that might be more effective.

Steve B

He is using the platform available to him, and knows that something that makes people uncomfortable is going to capture attention. If he just went on Twitter and said I don't like what's happening in America it would have very little impact. I don't think it's an empty gesture, he certainly knows the possible consequences.

[bravos4evr]

He is engaging in core political speech 100% protected by the First Amendment and anyone who wants to punish him for it needs to go back to school and understand the freedoms that the song represents. He isn't disrespecting the people who defend this country. He is engaging in the activity they fight to protect. Our most precious freedom is the right to be an American Idiot. Voltaire said it best: I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It

welll.......... that's not really true.

The constitution protects you from the tyranny of the govt in regards to speech. It does NOT protect you from consequences of your choices however.

The owner of the team has the right to decide that Kaepernick's choices are detrimental to the team and cut him accordingly. This would not be a free speech violation, merely a business decision.


my response to the poll:


I both think that if I were owner I'd cut him AND that he has the right to protest any way he sees fit. We all have the right to our opinion and to express it anyway we like as long as we don't harm others, but, that being said, we are all bound to face the consequences of the choices we make and are open to any and all criticism of our choices. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to avoid criticism or consequences, it is there to keep the govt from chucking us in jail because we think it sucks.

[FourStrikes]

meh...this has been done before (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf of the NBA, etc.) as an example, so while he's not necessarily a trailblazing sports/entertainment figure, it is what it is and makes interesting point/counterpoint discussion for those that want to engage in such things.

although I may have my own personal opinions, I'm not going to get further involved w/my commentary, as Adam's well-stated post on the (constitutionally-protected) aspects of this "protest" are dead-on accurate.

DS

[Topps206]

It's his right to do it. While he's not free of consequences, he is, however, free to sit during the anthem. Even the NFL said that they encourage players to stand but that they don't require them.

Even if you disagree that he protested, it's tough to say he doesn't have the right to do so.

You can't please everyone and often important stances aren't the popular ones.

[bnorth]

my response to the poll:


I both think that if I were owner I'd cut him AND that he has the right to protest any way he sees fit. We all have the right to our opinion and to express it anyway we like as long as we don't harm others, but, that being said, we are all bound to face the consequences of the choices we make and are open to any and all criticism of our choices. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to avoid criticism or consequences, it is there to keep the govt from chucking us in jail because we think it sucks.

^^+1^^ This is my response to the poll also, combination of part of 1 & 2.

[Topps206]

If everybody just fell in line with no problems at all, we wouldn't have change for the better. Just because I love my country doesn't mean I think it's without its flaws.

I oppose the action of burning the American flag, but I support someone's right to do it.

[bravos4evr]

If everybody just fell in line with no problems at all, we wouldn't have change for the better. Just because I love my country doesn't mean I think it's without its flaws.

I oppose the action of burning the American flag, but I support someone's right to do it.

sure, it's legal for them to do it, but we are free to think they are scumbags for doing it (and their employer is free to fire them if they think their employee's actions are detrimental to their business)

I think Kaepernick made a mistake with the timing of his actions. If he had been a top notch player, owning the starting QB job and leading his team to the playoffs he would have a lot more leeway. BUT, when you have played poorly, complained about losing the starting job and then do something like this... well let's say it looks kinda like an attention grab.


Jimmy Johnson years ago was asked why a borderline player got released for falling asleep at a film meeting. He said that when you are on the cut line you need to be the first there, last to leave amd you need to keep your mouth shut and do your job the best you can. When the reporter replied "well, if it was Troy Aikman who fell asleep what would you do?" he said "I'd say , "Troy, wake up""

[Topps206]

sure, it's legal for them to do it, but we are free to think they are scumbags for doing it (and their employer is free to fire them if they think their employee's actions are detrimental to their business)

I think Kaepernick made a mistake with the timing of his actions. If he had been a top notch player, owning the starting QB job and leading his team to the playoffs he would have a lot more leeway. BUT, when you have played poorly, complained about losing the starting job and then do something like this... well let's say it looks kinda like an attention grab.


Jimmy Johnson years ago was asked why a borderline player got released for falling asleep at a film meeting. He said that when you are on the cut line you need to be the first there, last to leave amd you need to keep your mouth shut and do your job the best you can. When the reporter replied "well, if it was Troy Aikman who fell asleep what would you do?" he said "I'd say , "Troy, wake up""

I'm not sure where I said the 49ers wouldn't be within their right to release him, but you're right about the double standard, though.

To disavow his actions is your right, but not standing for the anthem is also his.

[bravos4evr]

I'm not sure where I said the 49ers wouldn't be within their right to release him, but you're right about the double standard, though.

To disavow his actions is your right, but not standing for the anthem is also his.

nobody is arguing with it being his right (unless the NFL chooses to make it required) my beef is how so many people make wrong first amendment arguments in regards to criticism from others or punishment from his employer. (or they seem to think he has a right to his opinion but we don't have the right to think poorly of him because of said opinion, which by the way wouldn't be the case if a white guy said something that was deemed racist)

[clydepepper]

Besides not being able to get his helmet on, I think he's taking a real gamble on his career. An Oscar Gamble that is.


Thank You...I'll be here all week...Don't forget to tip your waitresses

[Exhibitman]

True, the First Amendment does not prevent a private enterprise from acting but firing an employee for engaging in an activity that is legal and not in violation of his contract terms would entitle him to sue for the guaranteed balance of his contract.. So, if the team wants to can him and pay his contract they are free to so; he will catch on with another team at the league minimum and potentially be paid to beat the old team.

The argument also misses my point: the activity in question is protected by the specific right that allows the self-righteous to hate on Kaepernick in the first place. Americans don't fight for the right to stand up shut up and conform. Never have. Never will. Absolute ideological conformity is the province of religion and dictatorship. The nazis were very good at getting everyone to shut up and toe the line. Didn't work out so well.

Legalities aside firing him would be an unbelievably stupid maneuver. The league is 80%+ black. Management sending a message that they will tolerate all manner of behavior except black political speech would cripple the team's ability to recruit and sign free agents. Given the team location and market I suspect it would also offend more of the team's fan base than it would appease.

[EvilKing00]

well since others posted comments - i guess ill post too

I wish this fool was on the giants - as a life long giant fan i know how they do business - i dont think ownership would stand for him not standing. i think he would be cut immediately. If LT was still on the team he kick his but in the locker room. Interesting images of SF & NYG teams "standing for our country"



244248


I wish he was playing the NYG in giant stadium on sunday sept 11 - since the 49ers arent playing on sunday sept 11 i think its a stroke of luck for him, it wouldn't go over well - maybe he should move to syria and see if he can play a game and be a millionaire there. Sure its his AMERICAN right to be an idiot 100% & its everyone else's right to bash him for it.

[Leon]

I voted number 1. I think he is pathetic. He should be protesting the parents of the blacks who haven't obeyed police officers, were criminals and got killed because of their own actions. That is what he should be protesting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Given LT's track record with the law, I would much prefer Kaepernick.

This from an article (two days ago) on LT's latest brush with the law, a drunk driving arrest.

It’s hardly Taylor’s first mugshot. He fell asleep at the wheel on the Garden State Parkway in 1989, failing a breathalyzer test but beating the resulting DUI charges two months later.

Subsequent arrests were for misdemeanor property damage in Honolulu, trying to buy crack cocaine in Florida and South Carolina, falsifying his 1990 income tax returns and failing to pay child support. In 2009 he was arrested for patronizing a 16-year-old prostitute in a Ramapo, New York hotel, ultimately receiving a no-jail sentence after insisting he had no idea of her age. “I don’t card prostitutes,” he later said.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The President has weighed in.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/05/obama-kaepernicks-protest-tough-thing-for-military-community.html

[vintagetoppsguy]

The argument also misses my point: the activity in question is protected by the specific right that allows the self-righteous to hate on Kaepernick in the first place.

Those who disagree with Kaepernick's actions are self-righteous? And hate him too? Why do you have to demonize them that way just because your opinion differs? You must have read Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals, right?

[Topps206]

The President has weighed in.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/05/obama-kaepernicks-protest-tough-thing-for-military-community.html

There definitely is a division among military, at least. Some veterans support him, others don't.

[dgo71]

I voted number 1. I think he is pathetic. He should be protesting the parents of the blacks who haven't obeyed police officers, were criminals and got killed because of their own actions. That is what he should be protesting.

So you're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and, as you so eloquently put it, "the blacks"?

[Leon]

So you're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and, as you so eloquently put it, "the blacks"?

Stick your full name out here and you can continue this debate. thanks...and yes, just as I am white (caucasion but "white" is fine) there are some folks who are black, it's only derogatory if you say it in such a manner. He has a right to do and feel how he wants to just as I do. I actually don't have a problem with his act of doing it but I feel the way I do about it. I hope that makes sense.
Again, I will be happy to continue the discussion with you after you put your name out here...nothing personal at all....

[dgo71]

Name fixed. Didn't realize that was such a big deal...

Also, no offense, but since you're white your opinion on whether or not "the blacks" is offensive doesn't matter. You don't get a vote as to the offensiveness of terms that don't apply to you. For example, I don't personally find the name "Redskins" offensive, but since I'm not a Native American, my opinion on the matter means nothing. It's easy to not be offended when you're not a part of the group that is being offended.

All that aside, since it's not really the point, black people continue to face unfair oppression from people in positions of authority, and that was the entire point of Kap's protest. To say the people who were abused by police are at fault because they didn't act a certain way is patently false and a willful blind eye to the fact that racism exists. Obviously I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time as nothing in life is so easily categorized, but comments like yours, whether it was your intention or not, only help perpetuate the myth that racism is a thing of the past.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Name fixed. Didn't realize that was such a big deal...

Also, no offense, but since you're white your opinion on whether or not "the blacks" is offensive doesn't matter. You don't get a vote as to the offensiveness of terms that don't apply to you. For example, I don't personally find the name "Redskins" offensive, but since I'm not a Native American, my opinion on the matter means nothing. It's easy to not be offended when you're not a part of the group that is being offended.

Wow! :eek:

What a double standard!?! By that reasoning, since you're not black, you don't get an opinion of whether or not there's a difference in the way police treat white people or black people. Nor do you get any opinion on racism. If Leon doesn't get any vote as to the offensiveness of terms that doesn't apply to him, why do you get a vote about oppression or racism if they don't apply to you???

:rolleyes:

[Leon]

Thanks for putting your name out here. It isn't a big deal but is an important part of our forum, hence the rule in bold letters at the top of every page...though this isn't exactly that, it is the reasoning behind it. (simple accountability)

There is no doubt that racism does exist today. Anyone who doesn't think so is not being honest with themselves. That being said there are more opportunities for everyone today than there ever has been. It is hard to deny that by looking at the President, AG, Supreme Court etc.. etc.....
However, I firmly believe parenting is the biggest issue facing our nation today. If it could be taught and taught and taught it might make a lot of the problems go away.
And if you feel the criminals who got shot by not obeying an officer's command, were only shot because of their color...and not because they disobeyed a command, then that is part of the problem, to me. Let's debate why they were being criminals? (*see my parenting point)

I can guarantee if I didn't obey cops in the past I very well might have ended up dead too. Just as anyone of any color would.

Name fixed. Didn't realize that was such a big deal...

Also, no offense, but since you're white your opinion on whether or not "the blacks" is offensive doesn't matter. You don't get a vote as to the offensiveness of terms that don't apply to you. For example, I don't personally find the name "Redskins" offensive, but since I'm not a Native American, my opinion on the matter means nothing. It's easy to not be offended when you're not a part of the group that is being offended.

All that aside, since it's not really the point, black people continue to face unfair oppression from people in positions of authority, and that was the entire point of Kap's protest. To say the people who were abused by police are at fault because they didn't act a certain way is patently false and a willful blind eye to the fact that racism exists. Obviously I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time as nothing in life is so easily categorized, but comments like yours, whether it was your intention or not, only help perpetuate the myth that racism is a thing of the past.

[vintagetoppsguy]

There is no doubt that racism does exist today.

And there is no doubt that it works both ways...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5S2E26BWoo

[Leon]

1000%...the video is not there for me but my thousand percent is I agree it goes both ways...

and there is no doubt that it works both ways...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vrwjzz4hse

[vintagetoppsguy]

1000%...the video is not there for me but my thousand percent is I agree it goes both ways...

Fixed link to video.

[Leon]

Fixed link to video.

Of course that is crazy but there are probably some low life white people teaching their kids the same thing.. I didn't' say parenting was a white or black thing....but it's the biggest thing. We need to teach parenting so kids won't grow up as criminals and can make good choices in life.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Of course that is crazy but there are probably some low life white people teaching their kids the same thing.. I didn't' say parenting was a white or black thing....but it's the biggest thing. We need to teach parenting so kids won't grow up as criminals and can make good choices in life.

Absolutely agreed, Leon. The only reason I posted that is because there some people that think white people can't be discriminated against simply because they're white.

[dgo71]

Absolutely agreed, Leon. The only reason I posted that is because there some people that think white people can't be discriminated against simply because they're white.

I never said that. But yeah, I'm sure white males have it just as bad as any minority in a country founded by rich, slave-owning white guys. :rolleyes:

As to your comment about a double-standard, acknowledging racism exists in the world isn't an opinion, that's an unfortunate fact. Saying "It's OK to say [insert whatever colloquialism here] because it's not racist" is an opinion. That's the difference. All I'm saying is I hear a lot of people who aren't in the group that's being offended telling other people what they think is offensive and what isn't. Their God-given right to HAVE an opinion doesn't make their opinion valid. If you're trying to decide between the chicken or the fish, are you going to ask a vegan?

Leon, I can totally agree on your point about parenting but I don't think that's actually the debate here. I don't necessarily agree that there are more opportunities in the overall, simply because a few high-ranking positions are occupied by people of color. Sure, those are very powerful positions, but they are still outliers. Look into the general populace of any city in America and tell me opportunities exist equally. Look into the comparison of sentencing to the crime committed between white people and black people and tell me there's equality there. That's what Kaepernick's protest was about. Not the military, not a flag, the idea that equality doesn't exist in the vast majority of this country. Him having millions of dollars doesn't negate his right to empathize with a cause, because he too is an outlier. Brock Turner serves 3 months for raping a girl and there are black men in jail for longer than that for having a small amount of marijuana. If Brock Turner was black do you think he'd be free right now? Ask yourself that honestly.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you're trying to decide between the chicken or the fish, are you going to ask a vegan?

What if you ask the chef and he happens to be a vegan? Does he not get an opinion because he's vegan? Is he going to tell you, "I don't get an opinion"? Certainly not, but that's what you're saying.

[Topps206]

It looks like Megan Rapinoe, female soccer player, kneeled in support of Kaepernick.

[Gobucsmagic74]

welll.......... that's not really true.

The constitution protects you from the tyranny of the govt in regards to speech. It does NOT protect you from consequences of your choices however.

The owner of the team has the right to decide that Kaepernick's choices are detrimental to the team and cut him accordingly. This would not be a free speech violation, merely a business decision.


my response to the poll:


I both think that if I were owner I'd cut him AND that he has the right to protest any way he sees fit. We all have the right to our opinion and to express it anyway we like as long as we don't harm others, but, that being said, we are all bound to face the consequences of the choices we make and are open to any and all criticism of our choices. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to avoid criticism or consequences, it is there to keep the govt from chucking us in jail because we think it sucks.

Perfectly stated...couldn't agree more

[dgo71]

What if you ask the chef and he happens to be a vegan? Does he not get an opinion because he's vegan? Is he going to tell you, "I don't get an opinion"? Certainly not, but that's what you're saying.

You keep missing that this is not what I'm saying at all. He clearly and obviously has the right to an opinion. I, as a rational person able to take circumstance into consideration, can then determine the validity of the opinion. Again, his right to an opinion doesn't make it relevant. By your logic, you'll get the fish and hate it and blame the guy that's never tried either dish.

[Leon]

If you don't think there are more opportunities today, for minorities, then I guess you just don't get out much. :) It's really not even a debate as much as a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, regardless of what anyone thinks. It is just yes.
If I look into the general populace I see minorities and whites too, being kept down due to the hands that feed them, which allows them to not have to feed themselves. It really is the old adage, "teach a man to fish." I want to help everyone help themselves. And along they way if they need a year or two of financial assistance (to be paid back), I can handle that. As long as I see them doing the right things (the right things being, being a productive individual), then I will help. It takes effort to succeed and most social programs today seem to make it too easy to keep taking the handout.

The more programs there are to help, the more the people they intend to help are hurt. It is common sense. Really, it is, I promise. ;)

I volunteer at the Salvation Army every week and have for 16 yrs running. I council homeless veterans on life skills. We have some pretty interesting classes as my views have always (for many, many years) stayed the same.


I never said that. But yeah, I'm sure white males have it just as bad as any minority in a country founded by rich, slave-owning white guys. :rolleyes:

As to your comment about a double-standard, acknowledging racism exists in the world isn't an opinion, that's an unfortunate fact. Saying "It's OK to say [insert whatever colloquialism here] because it's not racist" is an opinion. That's the difference. All I'm saying is I hear a lot of people who aren't in the group that's being offended telling other people what they think is offensive and what isn't. Their God-given right to HAVE an opinion doesn't make their opinion valid. If you're trying to decide between the chicken or the fish, are you going to ask a vegan?

Leon, I can totally agree on your point about parenting but I don't think that's actually the debate here. I don't necessarily agree that there are more opportunities in the overall, simply because a few high-ranking positions are occupied by people of color. Sure, those are very powerful positions, but they are still outliers. Look into the general populace of any city in America and tell me opportunities exist equally. Look into the comparison of sentencing to the crime committed between white people and black people and tell me there's equality there. That's what Kaepernick's protest was about. Not the military, not a flag, the idea that equality doesn't exist in the vast majority of this country. Him having millions of dollars doesn't negate his right to empathize with a cause, because he too is an outlier. Brock Turner serves 3 months for raping a girl and there are black men in jail for longer than that for having a small amount of marijuana. If Brock Turner was black do you think he'd be free right now? Ask yourself that honestly.

[FourStrikes]

well-said, Leon.

If you don't think there are more opportunities today, for minorities, then I guess you just don't get out much. :) It's really not even a debate as much as a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, regardless of what anyone thinks. It is just yes.
If I look into the general populace I see minorities and whites too, being kept down due to the hands that feed them, which allows them to not have to feed themselves. It really is the old adage, "teach a man to fish." I want to help everyone help themselves. And along they way if they need a year or two of financial assistance (to be paid back), I can handle that. As long as I see them doing the right things (the right things being, being a productive individual), then I will help. It takes effort to succeed and most social programs today seem to make it too easy to keep taking the handout.

The more programs there are to help, the more the people they intend to help are hurt. It is common sense. Really, it is, I promise. ;)

I volunteer at the Salvation Army every week and have for 16 yrs running. I council homeless veterans on life skills. We have some pretty interesting classes as my views have always (for many, many years) stayed the same.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you don't think there are more opportunities today, for minorities, then I guess you just don't get out much. :) It's really not even a debate as much as a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, regardless of what anyone thinks. It is just yes.
If I look into the general populace I see minorities and whites too, being kept down due to the hands that feed them, which allows them to not have to feed themselves. It really is the old adage, "teach a man to fish." I want to help everyone help themselves. And along they way if they need a year or two of financial assistance (to be paid back), I can handle that. As long as I see them doing the right things (the right things being, being a productive individual), then I will help. It takes effort to succeed and most social programs today seem to make it too easy to keep taking the handout.

The more programs there are to help, the more the people they intend to help are hurt. It is common sense. Really, it is, I promise. ;)

I volunteer at the Salvation Army every week and have for 16 yrs running. I council homeless veterans on life skills. We have some pretty interesting classes as my views have always (for many, many years) stayed the same.

+1

I go to a predominately black Baptist church in south Houston. The pastor is black, the youth pastor is black. The pastor has a masters degree in economics and the youth pastor has a doctorates in theology. If you told them they didn't have the same opportunity that a white person has, they would set you straight real quick. Derrick (or anybody else), come on down to the Anderson Road Baptist Church with me next Sunday and spew your lack or opportunities/equality ridiculous nonsense and I have some black brothers (in Christ) that will set you straight real quick. It's a serious invite.

[egri]

I don't like what he's doing, think he has a right to do it, and have a hard time finding sympathy for a guy who makes $12 million a year playing football. I think Benjamin Watson hit the nail on the head with the letter he wrote after Ferguson.

[bobbyw8469]

The President has weighed in.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/05/obama-kaepernicks-protest-tough-thing-for-military-community.html

The president has been so off base on soooooo many topics recently, that I think no one really gives two hoots what he thinks anymore.

[Leon]

The president has been so off base on soooooo many topics recently, that I think no one really gives two hoots what he thinks anymore.

Lets try to keep this as "apolitical" as possible, please. I fully understand the political system but if we give our own views it's not quite as political ....at least to me.

[dgo71]

Yup, seems totally legit. If you think minorities are provided the generosity, opportunity and second chances that white males receive, you don't get out at all.

Vintagetoppsguy, as much as I appreciate the invite I don't see hopping on a plane for Houston to talk to the two black people you know that are doing well as an accurate barometer for equality. But keep telling yourself everything is fine, that's really all that matters.

Edited to add, are there more opportunities today then...whatever point in history, yes. It was within most of our lifetimes that black men and women couldn't use the same restroom as white people though. So yes, we've come a ways from those days, nobody is arguing that, but making improvements on ideals that should be shamefully embarrassing is hardly the same thing as equality.

[bravos4evr]

Yup, seems totally legit. If you think minorities are provided the generosity, opportunity and second chances that white males receive, you don't get out at all.

Vintagetoppsguy, as much as I appreciate the invite I don't see hopping on a plane for Houston to talk to the two black people you know that are doing well as an accurate barometer for equality. But keep telling yourself everything is fine, that's really all that matters.

Edited to add, are there more opportunities today then...whatever point in history, yes. It was within most of our lifetimes that black men and women couldn't use the same restroom as white people though. So yes, we've come a ways from those days, nobody is arguing that, but making improvements on ideals that should be shamefully embarrassing is hardly the same thing as equality.


life is the result of the choices you make and everything that happens is your fault and to your credit, blaming other people is silly scapegoat nonsense. yes they have the same opportunities, but they have made cultural choices in many communities to ignore those opportunities for the easy way out. Your amusing "safe space" rhetoric makes me sick to my stomach. what lame white bread middle class suburb did you come from to spout such hilariously naive platitudes?

hipster, pandering, white guilt rubbish, every damn thing you've said

[dgo71]

life is the result of the choices you make and everything that happens is your fault and to your credit, blaming other people is silly scapegoat nonsense. yes they have the same opportunities, but they have made cultural choices in many communities to ignore those opportunities for the easy way out. Your amusing "safe space" rhetoric makes me sick to my stomach. what lame white bread middle class suburb did you come from to spout such hilariously naive platitudes?

hipster, pandering, white guilt rubbish, every damn thing you've said

Glad you and your white privilege took the high road.

[EvilKing00]

The president has been so off base on soooooo many topics recently, that I think no one really gives two hoots what he thinks anymore.

Agree a million % and i wont get started on our fearless leader :rolleyes:

[EvilKing00]

Just from my point of view:

I as well as many people i know are business owners i hire anyone who will make me money. White, black, yellow or blue. I could care less. Only color that matters to most if not all business people is green.

More people need to understand this.

[tschock]

Glad you and your white privilege took the high road.

You have to admit that the poverty pimps who jump on the 'racism' bandwagon in specific cases when it doesn't exist hurts more than helps. They only want 'the truth' when it fits their narrative. Otherwise they'll just repeat the lies until people believe it really happened.

[Jantz]

The point that most people are missing is the fact that Kaepernick is wearing a uniform while doing all this. He is wearing a uniform of a professional football player. He is on that field to play football and do the best that he can for his team. That's what he is getting paid to do. He is not getting paid to display his own personal beliefs on the field. Football is a team sport, not an individual sport.

I agree that he is allowed his own opinions, views on life, religious beliefs, sexual preferences and so on, but not on the field. If he wants to sit while the National Anthem is playing, that's fine, but do it on his own time, not while he is in uniform.

I'll bet he is only doing this nonsense when the cameras are on.

My vote was for choice number 1 in the poll. It was the only choice close to what I feel should happen to him. Personally if he wants to sit, then the 49ers should let him sit for the rest of the year. Allowing him to play would be nothing more than justifying a wrong with a wrong.

(veteran)

[Mdmtx]

I disagree with an earlier post that suggests legal backlash if the 49'ers dump craperneck. The notion that he did nothing illegal and thus making it an illegal termination can be proved erroneous easily: assume a pro player goes to one of the highly liberal states and partakes in legal recreational marijuana. Then upon failing a drug test could be suspended or terminated.

Although I obviously have no access to any of the players contracts, I am fairly certain that each and every one has moral clauses as well as team rule clauses. These are not law, but the player is obligated to abide by them. I am surprised the players union hasn't gotten involved to admonish craperneck, as the last thing they desire is reduced public support, i.e. reduced revenue. The failure of the 49'ers organization to take any public reaction to this treasonous(imo) act shows their management as weak and afraid to make any public decision whether favorable or unfavorable. And is probably why they are not winners any longer. The tail is wagging the dog.

If you are unsure of how I voted, please reread my post as I'm sure my stance is conveyed.

Mark Medlin

[MooseDog]

Not a 49er fan but hey, anything that keeps Kapernick off the playing field can only help the Niners chances of winning games.

[alanu]

Not standing for the National Anthem to me is kind of a catch 22, one of the main reasons to stand is that you live in a country where you have the right to speak up for what you believe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does Kaepernick not standing make us more or less uncomfortable than this?

[drcy]

Not standing for the National Anthem to me is kind of a catch 22, one of the main reasons to stand is that you live in a country where you have the right to speak up for what you believe.

Or you could reword to say it "One of the main reasons to stand for the flag is that you live in a country where you have the right not to stand for the flag."

Though my answer would be: If the tradition was that you kneel in front of the flag, he would be chastised for standing.

[SAllen2556]

It just bothers me when people disrespect the founding of this country and, by extension, the flag, especially by someone who probably couldn't even name the first president. It's really that simple. You want to protest unfair jail sentences, or whatever, go lobby your congressman. As a football player, you've got some clout - they might actually listen to you. Hold a press conference and explain your views. You're a public figure, you can do that. Write an article. Hell, run for congress yourself; the average football career is only about 4 years, and yours is looking shorter than that. You'll have the time.

There's at least a dozen ways I can think of that you could make your point without offending at least half the country. Even if you're completely right, you've already alienated half (I hope it's more) of your audience. Dumb. Immature. Ignorant.

[EvilKing00]

if this guy really wants to protest our country - he should do so by quitting his job, as this country is the only one that has an NFL and he should move to a better country. And show everyone how much better off he is.

[Leon]

Does Kaepernick not standing make us more or less uncomfortable than this?

About the same to me.....both are out of place and both should have/had punitive ramifications for the participants.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One little known fact about the Smith and Carlos ceremony is that the white silver medalist also protested in his own way, he (like the other two) was wearing the badge of an Olympic human rights committee, and apparently was ostracized in Australia for the act.

[packs]

If you support freedom in all forms then how can you be against someone who chooses to exert that freedom?

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

About the same to me.....both are out of place and both should have/had punitive ramifications for the participants.

Carlos and Smith were almost immediately forced to leave the Olympic Village by the same Avery Brundage who had not objected to the Heil Hitler salutes at the 1936 Olympics. They doubtless suffered a great deal of ostracism for many years afterward, although from my reading they are now looked on mostly favorably.

[Leon]

Actions have consequences. It's America. As much as I would support their (any of them) right to do what they did, I would support my right, if I were in that position, to mete out punitive consequences. We would both be within our rights. :) (See first sentence.)


Carlos and Smith were almost immediately forced to leave the Olympic Village by the same Avery Brundage who had not objected to the Heil Hitler salutes at the 1936 Olympics. They doubtless suffered a great deal of ostracism for many years afterward, although from my reading they are now looked on mostly favorably.

[packs]

Leon are you at all familiar with the Tuskegee experiments? They were still being conducted when that photo was taken. There is a historical and societal history that you are ignoring when you say things like actions have consequences.

[SAllen2556]

If you support freedom in all forms then how can you be against someone who chooses to exert that freedom?

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

Is it equally ironic that other white posters seem to think they know exactly what it's like to be a minority in this country? For example, when surveyed, only 10% of Native Americans were actually offended by the name "Washington Redskins". Yet by the uproar you'd assume it would be the opposite.

And to me anyway, it's not a problem that he's allowed to exercise his freedoms, it's HOW he went about it. I think it was just plain stupid. But, hey, stupidity is in style these days.

[packs]

I don't claim to know what it's like because I don't know what it's like. I never could and I never will but I also don't pretend to have some type of understanding that I don't have.

[tschock]

Actions have consequences.

With everything that is going on (and not just referring to a black/white issue), you seriously still believe that? I'd be more inclined to say that consequences and personal responsibility are the exception to the rule these days. ;)

[Leon]

I double down on my comment. That being said I would have held ALL of those responsible for that experiment accountable for their actions. We have a criminal justice system.

Leon are you at all familiar with the Tuskegee experiments? They were still being conducted when that photo was taken. There is a historical and societal history that you are ignoring when you say things like actions have consequences.

[Leon]

Yes.... and unfortunately you are correct.

With everything that is going on (and not just referring to a black/white issue), you seriously still believe that? I'd be more inclined to say that consequences and personal responsibility are the exception to the rule these days. ;)

[packs]

I double down on my comment. That being said I would have held ALL of those responsible for that experiment accountable for their actions. We have a criminal justice system.

Right but they weren't held accountable at all and I would argue that they chose their subjects carefully for that very reason. Do you think that equates to an equal society?

[vintagetoppsguy]

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Actions have consequences. It's America. As much as I would support their (any of them) right to do what they did, I would support my right, if I were in that position, to mete out punitive consequences. We would both be within our rights. :) (See first sentence.)

And what of Rosa Parks, would you have punished her too?

[Leon]

The individuals authorizing those atrocities should have been held accountable, I agree 100%. However there was this..

"As part of the settlement of a class action lawsuit subsequently filed by the NAACP on behalf of study participants and their descendants, the U.S. government paid $9 million (unadjusted for inflation) and agreed to provide free medical treatment to surviving participants and to surviving family members infected as a consequence of the study."

and this is more than many injustices receive though I would have made more individuals be held accountable-

A year later on May 16, 1997, President Bill Clinton formally apologized and held a ceremony at the White House for surviving Tuskegee study participants. He said:
"What was done cannot be undone. But we can end the silence. We can stop turning our heads away. We can look at you in the eye and finally say on behalf of the American people, what the United States government did was shameful, and I am sorry ... To our African American citizens, I am sorry that your federal government orchestrated a study so clearly racist."


And bringing this full circle, I don't have a problem with any athlete expressing their views and opinions. However, I do have an issue with where and when it is done. And to those that say, well he got your attention, I say he could have gotten it elsewhere too.


Right but they weren't held accountable at all and I would argue that they chose their subjects carefully for that very reason. Do you think that equates to an equal society?

[Leon]

Of course not. It's not the same. I would hope I would have been on her side concerning sitting on a bus.

And what of Rosa Parks, would you have punished her too?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course not. It's not the same. I would hope I would have been on her side concerning sitting on a bus.

No, it's not. She broke the law, they didn't.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Rosa Parks was protesting for racial equality. Kaepernick is protesting for...well, nothing. Huge difference!

My earlier question may have been overlooked. What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rosa Parks was protesting for racial equality. Kaepernick is protesting for...well, nothing. Huge difference!

My earlier question may have been overlooked. What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

The comparison was to Smith and Carlos at the Olympics.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I would of valued the protest higher if it came right at the height of his fame after the super bowl loss. Hes now more famous for the protest than for anything he has done on the field.

Jim Brown is a famous proponent for civil rights etc and he was equally famous for the work he did on the field.

[1952boyntoncollector]

What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

They dont get to be president even if they are half african american...oh woops that changed. You would think if the President of the United States was half african american during the time of attempting to create jim crow laws or other times that impacted minorities..that holding the position of POTUS could impact that more than whatever was done in our history

[Leon]

Their actions are worse than hers in my eyes.

No, it's not. She broke the law, they didn't.

[packs]

You are on the world's stage at different moments in your life if you are lucky to be on it at all. Why wouldn't black athletes take a stand against social inequality while on the biggest stage available to them? Saying you have a problem with when and where is a little shortsighted. These were men protesting at the height of the civil rights era. African Americans had only just had their rights affirmed with the civil rights act and the government was still injecting African Americans with syphilis just to see what happened. How could they not take that moment to express themselves? And how could you, a person exempt from anything they experienced, possibly have a perspective on when and where they should express themselves?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Their actions are worse than hers in my eyes.

I understand that, but not why.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Today, folks, today! Why are we discussing events from decades ago? What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking today?

[packs]

Did you see the video of Philando Castille? What did he do to deserve to die other than being black in America? He had been stopped 52 times by police in his area. 47 violations were dismissed because they had no merit. But he had the same opportunities as you, right?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Did you see the video of Philando Castille? What did he do to deserve to die other than being black in America? He had been stopped 52 times by police in his area. 86 violations were dismissed because they had no merit. But he had the same opportunities as you, right?

I probably saw the same thing you saw - a much edited video of Philando Castille that showed NOTHING about what lead up to the shooting. I'll reserve my comment on that until ALL the facts are in.

You really didn't answer my question though. What opportunities are minorities lacking today?

[packs]

Well the point I was demonstrating was that African Americans lack the opportunity to live their lives unimpeded by people violating their civil rights and taking their lives for no reason.

Also that video was not edited. It was streamed live as it happened.

[Cliff Bowman]

.

You really didn't answer my question though. What opportunities are minorities lacking today?

The only things I can think of as of today are having a prime time show on MSNBC and being nominated for an Oscar :D.

[packs]

One more stat for you since you think life gives everyone in this country a fair shake. Are you familiar with the Innocence Project? If not please read up on it. They have worked tirelessly to exonerate 344 people who were serving sentences for crimes they did not commit. Of those 344 people, 212 of them were African Americans. The system does not treat everyone the same, nor does life. You can't deny what exists.

Some more perspective for you. This was the government's finding on how the police department in Baltimore does business:

In Baltimore, a city that is 63 percent black, the Justice Department found that 91 percent of those arrested on discretionary offenses like “failure to obey” or “trespassing” were African-American. Blacks make up 60 percent of Baltimore’s drivers but account for 82 percent of traffic stops. Of the 410 pedestrians who were stopped at least 10 times in the five and a half years of data reviewed, 95 percent were black.

[tschock]

The system does not treat everyone the same, nor does life. You can't deny what exists.

In Baltimore, a city that is 63 percent black, the Justice Department found that 91 percent of those arrested on discretionary offenses like “failure to obey” or “trespassing” were African-American. Blacks make up 60 percent of Baltimore’s drivers but account for 82 percent of traffic stops. Of the 410 pedestrians who were stopped at least 10 times in the five and a half years of data reviewed, 95 percent were black.

Yeah, I think I get it now. You're looking for equal OUTCOME, not equal application. No allotment for police force allocation, time of day for stops, or even for possible offenses. Don't matter whether or not the vehicles stopped had expired plates, taillights out, etc. You just want to see people arrested in proportion to their population, regardless of offense. I get it.

Regarding traffic stops. A little anecdotal discovery. A number of years ago there was some hub-bub around blacks being stopped disproportionately for speeding violations in North Carolina. Something like 3x the amount than whites (not remembering the exact numbers). Based on my amount of driving, I thought that odd. So on my numerous trips between the triangle and Charlotte I did my own little experiment. Cruising at 5 MPH over the speed limit, I counted the number of times I was passed by whites vs blacks. Ended up that I was passed by blacks 2-3x MORE than the disparity they were complaining about. (unscientifically, it seemed like an even faster speed as well). So the conclusion could be promoted that they were being stopped LESS FREQUENTLY than they should have been.

But you are correct in that you can't deny WHAT exists. But WHY it exists might not be the blatant racism all the little Sharptons who cry wolf would always like you to believe either. Is there racism? Yep. Is it the case most of the time? Probably not.

[packs]

Ok so 95 out of every 100 people stopped 10 times or more for walking around are black but you don't see a disparity between how people of different races are treated by a police force. If you aren't convinced after reading a stat like that nothing will convince you. For you to deny that the world treats you differently based on the color of your skin is absurd.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the failures of your country and society at large. In fact, it is always a good thing to acknowledge these things because giving reality legitimacy equates to change. I want the world to treat people equally too, but that world is not the world we live in.

[1952boyntoncollector]

In the end i do hope the problem with police is worked with.

Most of the victims of violent crime in the inner cities are black (or at least disproportionately, correct me if i am wrong) and i want to ensure that black victims lives matter. We want to ensure the right type of police are there to help protect them and to serve.

Black victims lives matter too.

[vintagetoppsguy]

One more stat for you since you think life gives everyone in this country a fair shake. Are you familiar with the Innocence Project? If not please read up on it. They have worked tirelessly to exonerate 344 people who were serving sentences for crimes they did not commit. Of those 344 people, 212 of them were African Americans. The system does not treat everyone the same, nor does life. You can't deny what exists.

Some more perspective for you. This was the government's finding on how the police department in Baltimore does business:

In Baltimore, a city that is 63 percent black, the Justice Department found that 91 percent of those arrested on discretionary offenses like “failure to obey” or “trespassing” were African-American. Blacks make up 60 percent of Baltimore’s drivers but account for 82 percent of traffic stops. Of the 410 pedestrians who were stopped at least 10 times in the five and a half years of data reviewed, 95 percent were black.

OK, you don't want to answer my question, you want to discuss statistics instead. OK, I'll play along. Blacks make up 13% of the American population, yet they are responsible for over half of America's violent crime.

From 1980 to 2008, blacks accounted for 52.5% of of homicide offenders (whites 45.3% and "other" 2.2%. - U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Shouldn't the crime rate be somewhat proportionate to the population? Why isn't it?

[packs]

Obviously you didn't read anything I posted. I said I posted those figures to demonstrate that African Americans lack the opportunity to live their lives unimpeded by a police system that routinely targets them based on their race. Since that means nothing to you, we can't really have a discussion on the topic.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Obviously you didn't read anything I posted. I said I posted those figures to demonstrate that African Americans lack the opportunity to live their lives unimpeded by a police system that routinely targets them based on their race. Since that means nothing to you, we can't really have a discussion on the topic.

No, I did read it and I fully understand it. You say they are being racially profiled, right?

[packs]

No, I'm saying the system is geared toward arresting them, as evidenced by the government's own finding. So you asked people to suggest what opportunities African Americans lack that white Americans have. I've demonstrated very clearly that they lack the ability to live their lives without being harassed by a police system that clearly targets them because they are African American. That is a big difference between your life and the life of an African American, isn't it?

[vintagetoppsguy]

No, I'm saying the system is geared toward arresting them, as evidenced by the government's own finding. So you asked people to suggest what opportunities African Americans lack that white Americans have. I've demonstrated very clearly that they lack the ability to live their lives without being harassed by a police system that clearly targets them because they are African American. That is a big difference between your life and the life of an African American, isn't it?

And, as also evidenced by the government's own finding, the majority of the violent crimes are committed by blacks. That's not racist, it's a fact. Are facts racist? You said the police system targets them because they're black. Gee, there's a shocker! They're actually targeting the ones committing the majority of the crimes :eek:

If you're the police, and crime is a problem in your neighborhood, who are you going to target? The ones that match the description or the ones that don't? Let me word it another way. If street racing is a problem in your neighborhood and it is putting children at risk, should the police be targeting the soccer moms in minivans, or should they look closer at the sports cars? :rolleyes:

[packs]

Wow is all I can say. I already posted the Innocence Project data for a reason. That reason is to demonstrate that who people say committed a crime and who actually committed a crime are often at odds, but there is one thing they have in common: it must have been the black guy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I already posted the Innocence Project data for a reason.

And I didn't address at the time it because it's a ridiculous statistic. But I'll play your game. There are nearly 1 million black males in prisons in this country. And you're saying that 212 of them are serving time for a crime they didn't commit? :eek:

It's unfortunate yes, but I think a .000212 error rate is probably a lot better than most countries. Do you do your job with a .000212 error rate?

Any more ridiculous stats?

[FourStrikes]

since we're at or near triple-digit posts in this thread, I'm thinkin' we're long-overdue for a memorabilia contribution to this discussion.

NOT trying to derail a discussion that's been reasonably amicable, and while I personally value everyone's perspective/opinion, like they say, "opinions are like a$$holes and..." - I've got one (an opinion AND an a$$hole) and I've been one (an a$$hole) more times I care to admit to or even to remember, but...

time to inject some sports (imagery) into the discussion, as NOT everything - or anyone/everyone - is right or wrong at ALL times...in "black and white" terms, as there's always exceptions on both sides.

JMO...enjoy a few vintage images (not mine - swiped from Google images):

DS

[packs]

And I didn't address at the time it because it's a ridiculous statistic. But I'll play your game. There are nearly 1 million black males in prisons in this country. And you're saying that 212 of them are serving time for a crime they didn't commit? :eek:

It's unfortunate yes, but I think a .000212 error rate is probably a lot better than most countries. Do you do your job with a .000212 error rate?

Any more ridiculous stats?


Do you think the Innocence Project has all the time and resources in the world? Your posts are really borderline now and I'm growing concerned. I have made every effort to show you that the people arrested and the people convicted and the people exonerated are disproportionately African American. That makes all your supposed crime stats moot. In Minnesota, where Philando Castile was shot dead for no reason, 47 percent of all arrests were African Americans. Do you know how much of the population African Americans make up? 7 percent. Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?

[vintagetoppsguy]

I have made every effort to show you that the people arrested and the people convicted and the people exonerated are disproportionately African American.

And I have made every effort to show you that majority of violent crimes are committed by African Americans. Therefore, given that fact, doesn't it stand to reason that they would be arrested and convicted in disproportionate numbers? How hard is that one to figure out???? :rolleyes:

Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[packs]

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

[tschock]

"Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?"

Of course not. It would have to be lower than that, unless there aren't any repeat offenders. Personal actions and attitude over the course of time don't come into play at all, right?

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

And you haven't made any effort to do anything but have all admit it is ONLY due to racism.

[bravos4evr]

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

when you make up under 15% of the population at large but comprise 37% of the prison population, either you think we live in 1970's South Africa, or there is a cultural problem at work in the black community. My friend LP and I were talking last night about this and he said it's sad how the culture of the black community has fallen over the last 20 years to where it is now.

I,personally, think it's what happens when govt tells an entire group of people that they don't have to perform, they will save them a certain number of slots just because of their race. (not to mention the impact of generational welfare. nobody taught these families how to fish, they just kept giving them fish)


but go ahead, call us all racists from your lily white ivory tower because of what some sheltered academic sociologist told you. (hint, it isn't science no matter how hard they try to pretend it is)

[packs]

You guys are unbelievable. What do you have against admitting we have a racism problem in this country we've never overcome? Do you think there is something shameful about recognizing a failure? Because I happen to think the opposite. It is shameful to ignore a problem like systemic racism. Do you disregard the Civil Rights movement as some big to do? Or can you at least admit there was a problem then, even if you won't admit it now?

[vintagetoppsguy]

You guys are unbelievable. What do you have against admitting we have a racism problem in this country we've never overcome? Do you think there is something shameful about recognizing a failure? Because I happen to think the opposite. It is shameful to ignore a problem like systemic racism. Do you disregard the Civil Rights movement as some big to do? Or can you at least admit there was a problem then, even if you won't admit it now?

You sit there and talk about disproportionate numbers when it comes to arrests and convictions, so let me give you another disproportionate number. The national high school graduation rate for black males is 47% compared to nearly 75% for white males. Why aren't they graduating? Are the schools racist too forcing them to drop out? What do you think happens to them? It's the same thing happens to the white male drop outs - a majority of them end up in the prison system. No, Packs, we don't deny that racism exists. All we're saying is that they are a product of their own decisions (everybody is for that matter). Nobody is making them drop out. Their dropout rate has nothing to do with racism, but their dropout rate has a lot to do with why the arrest and conviction rates are disproportionate.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as we are. Here's the difference. Your opinion is based on your feelings. Our opinion is based on facts.

[packs]

Paint with a broader brush why don't you? I've been discussing police and their attitudes towards minorities because that is precisely what Kaepernick is protesting. What you're talking about is plain old geriatric racism and I would prefer not to hear anymore of it so I'll simply ignore you now.

[tschock]

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

when you make up under 15% of the population at large but comprise 37% of the prison population, either you think we live in 1970's South Africa, or there is a cultural problem at work in the black community. My friend LP and I were talking last night about this and he said it's sad how the culture of the black community has fallen over the last 20 years to where it is now.

I,personally, think it's what happens when govt tells an entire group of people that they don't have to perform, they will save them a certain number of slots just because of their race. (not to mention the impact of generational welfare. nobody taught these families how to fish, they just kept giving them fish)


but go ahead, call us all racists from your lily white ivory tower because of what some sheltered academic sociologist told you. (hint, it isn't science no matter how hard they try to pretend it is)

Living in a city where the population is about 48/40/12 of white/black/other, it's an interesting perspective. If you talk about the root cause of these problems with working black FAMILIES, you find the views similar to what you expressed above. If you discuss this with single black parents or kids from single black parents, it's runs more along the lines of "packs" comments (maybe a 'pack' mentality?). Though where it starts to diverge again is around their views of education. Not counting the typical bobble-head fashioned responses you get from those illuminated by Duke (remembering the Duke 88), of course. ;)

[SAllen2556]

In Minnesota, where Philando Castile was shot dead for no reason, 47 percent of all arrests were African Americans. Do you know how much of the population African Americans make up? 7 percent. Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?

In the NBA, 77% of all fouls are called on African Americans. Therefore, NBA officials must be racists, right? Oh wait, 77% of the NBA is made up of African Americans. Do poorer people drive crappier cars which in turn get pulled over more often? Most certainly.

And in one quick google search I found stats that disagree with yours. This site has crime stats for Minnesota broken down by race. Go to page 63. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/mnjis/Documents/2014-MN-Crime-Book.pdf

It lists the crimes by race. Whites outnumber Afr. Americans by more than 2 to 1.

Also, according to the Innocence Project the number 1 reason for wrongful convictions is false identification, not racism! In fact, false identification was the cause in over 75% of the cases.

Betting you don't respond directly to what's stated above. But maybe you're different than others on the far left. Let's see.

[packs]

Two things for you:

1. I was talking about the area in which Castile was stopped and murdered, not the state as a whole.

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not.

[tschock]

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't.

So you're saying that of the 212, 159 (75%) were in there because a white person committed the crime instead?

[packs]

I would never suggest that because that's insane to suggest. What I am suggesting is that there are plenty of people out there who see one black guy as all black guys. It wouldn't matter who you put in front of them, if they're black that was probably the guy.

[steve B]

Yes, there are still problems.

The civil rights movement in the 60's was right to try to correct what they could. And there are some things today that need fixing.

But....I find it also racist to say as many liberals do something along the lines of " These poor people can't fend for themselves in any way unless we give them our help."

Guess what? Nearly every group in this country has been oppressed and fairly seriously at different times. Nearly all of them eventually prospered by becoming part of the system and embracing stuff like laws and education.

Have I had advantages because of who I am? Probably, but it's hard to separate the ones from being from a really solid family and ones I might have had naturally. I know a few people who have started with more and done worse, and some who have started with less and done better. I do know that pretty much all my failings have been because of me.

Kapernick was as far as I can find an excellent student, and gifted athlete. Both of which got him advantages and opportunities that wouldn't have been open to me. (Passable student and moderately athletic)

Steve B

[tschock]

I would never suggest that because that's insane to suggest. What I am suggesting is that there are plenty of people out there who see one black guy as all black guys. It wouldn't matter who you put in front of them, if they're black that was probably the guy.

You did, before you edited your post to add "Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not." Fair enough.

So let me ask. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Paint with a broader brush why don't you? I've been discussing police and their attitudes towards minorities because that is precisely what Kaepernick is protesting. What you're talking about is plain old geriatric racism and I would prefer not to hear anymore of it so I'll simply ignore you now.

If it were one police department or several police departments in different areas, you might have a valid point. But that's not the case. The disproportionate arrests and convictions you speak of happen in every city, in every county, in every state across this nation. Are all police departments across the nation wrongfully targeting black people, that the numbers are disproportionate to white people? Or maybe is it because black people are committing a disproportionate number of the crimes and that's why they're arrested and convicted? Maybe it's not a police problem, maybe it's a behavioural problem???

And the question I asked was valid. Why is the dropout rate nearly double for black males than it is for white males? It's very relevant to the topic of discussion. My contention is that the dropout rate directly relates to the poverty rate, which directly relates to the crime rate (those arrests and convictions you speak of). Why are they dropping out? Is someone making them? Do the educators have an attitude towards minorities like you say the police do? Again, it's a fair question.

[SAllen2556]

Two things for you:

1. I was talking about the area in which Castile was stopped and murdered, not the state as a whole.

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not.

1. So you admit you're cherry-picking the statistics. The stats for the entire state of Minnesota would be considered much more valid to use if you wanted to generalize anything.

2. Well, even if the witness misidentified the proper black guy, it is very likely the criminal probably was still a black guy. You're certainly not implying that a witness who saw a white guy commit a crime told the police that it was actually a black guy. That's an argument a 12-year old would make.

[EvilKing00]

Is affermative action rasism? Is it fair that a company has to hire a minority over a white person even if the white person is better qualified?

2 people vying for same job both lets say are in the low income bracket and lets say the white guy has more qualifications for that job dosnt get it cause of his skin color. Sounds rasist, no?

Agian, from my piont of view i hire who can make me money, but i just always thought that affirmative action wasnt right and never made sense.

[packs]

1. So you admit you're cherry-picking the statistics. The stats for the entire state of Minnesota would be considered much more valid to use if you wanted to generalize anything.

2. Well, even if the witness misidentified the proper black guy, it is very likely the criminal probably was still a black guy. You're certainly not implying that a witness who saw a white guy commit a crime told the police that it was actually a black guy. That's an argument a 12-year old would make.


I picked that statistic because I was talking about a specific incident that happened in a specific place. What does the rest of Minnesota have to do with Philando Castile's murder? He was murdered where he was murdered.

The point is, maybe there was no black guy at all. Maybe the black guy was a police invention in the first place. Maybe a witness didn't see anything. Have you ever heard of Louis Scarcella? Why don't you look him up.

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country.

[celoknob]

Maybe the NFL needs to implement "safe spaces" similar to some universities these days so as to protect some sensitive feelings from the open expression of Kaepernick's free speech.

[tschock]

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country.

Please study the difference between correlation and causation. You have a lot of the former but none of the later.

And to your point on the statistics you bring, since you brought it up, let me ask again. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country. It's not something they've done to themselves and seeing that people have that POV concerns me even more.

You're so full of crap its ridiculous. People make their own choices and are a product of their choices. Just like dropping out of school is a choice. You keep overlooking that statistic.

For the life of me I dont know why Leon continues to let you post without your full name.

[packs]

Please study the difference between correlation and causation. You have a lot of the former but none of the later.

And to your point on the statistics you bring, since you brought it up, let me ask again. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

I don't know how you could possibly expect me to know that. The Federal Government found both the Baltimore and Ferguson Police Departments and judicial systems to be racially bias. That was a government finding. How can anyone say it doesn't exist?

[dgo71]

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

Wow, if you could've worked eating watermelon and fried chicken in with all these other unquantifiable claims you would have won racist stereotype bingo. Have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.

[ALR-bishop]

Nessa Diab....no, that's not packs :), but she may have a role in this

[vintagetoppsguy]

...eating watermelon and fried chicken...

Wow! Talk about your stereotyping?

[tschock]

I don't know how you could possibly expect me to know that. The Federal Government found both the Baltimore and Ferguson Police Departments and judicial systems to be racially bias. That was a government finding. How can anyone say it doesn't exist?

Wow. Really? You admit you don't know the answer to that simple question. "2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not. " Yeah, great evidence you got there. I wonder if the FG used the same criteria you use to find your 'racial bias'. Of course, they aren't bias at all. It's all objective. :rolleyes:

I would highly recommend not parroting everything you hear just because it's what you want to believe and do some critical thinking on your own. Again, correlation, not causation. Look it up. Or maybe reading comprehension is the root cause here?

Again, no one is saying it doesn't exist. However your claim is that institutionalized racism is the reason. Bar none other, from what I can tell, since you are the only one arguing against all other possible causes.

I can just imagine your solution to this. More government involvement in a problem they have institutionalized (according to you). Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

[dgo71]

Wow! Talk about your stereotyping?

Yeah, you got me. Clearly I'm the racist here. :rolleyes:

Of all your attempts to deflect the conversation away from the real issue this post is by far the most laughable.

[Cliff Bowman]

I have a question for dgo71 and packs. We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald because you can't turn on a TV, computer, or radio without being bombarded about them. How many black men that were murdered by other black men in the last few years can the two of you name? I did all of those out of memory, so no cheating and researching names.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Yeah, you got me. Clearly I'm the racist here. :rolleyes:

Of all your attempts to deflect the conversation away from the real issue this post is by far the most laughable.

I haven't deflected anything. The only deflection is my question going unanswered. Packs is not intellectually equiped to answer it, so here's your shot. Why do black male high school students have a dropout rate that is twice the rate for white male high school students? You (at least I think it was you, it was someone) mentioned earlier in the thread about blacks not having the same opportunities as whites. Seems like they're not taking advantage of their greatest opportunity - an education.

[dgo71]

If you read these texts and still can't understand why Kaepernick did what he did then there's nothing that will allow you to see that a real problem exists. Is this just one example? Yes. Is this the only case of this happening? Certainly not. Is even one instance such as this unacceptable? Absolutely. Tell me minorities in this area had the same opportunities as white people under this clown's watch.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/8/8573497/san-franciso-police-racism

[dgo71]

I have a question for dgo71 and packs. We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald because you can't turn on a TV, computer, or radio without being bombarded about them. How many black men that were murdered by other black men in the last few years can the two of you name? I did all of those out of memory, so no cheating and researching names.

Strawman argument much? How about instead, how many unarmed white men can you name that have been killed by police while surrendering? Take your time, I'll wait.

[steve B]

Wow, if you could've worked eating watermelon and fried chicken in with all these other unquantifiable claims you would have won racist stereotype bingo. Have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.

Just to put a tiny touch of humor out there.........

Boston area Busing program potluck dinner late 70's Hosted in the suburban town. Guy from Roxbury brings...........Yep fried chicken and watermelon. When the PTA ladies get all flustered and he hears "how could you?!" He simply says "What? I like this stuff!"

He would be very unlikely to get a Klan membership.

People are just people, and sometimes normal for them matches someone elses stereotype.

Steve B
PS. Awesome fried chicken, he made it himself. Fantastic cook.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have a question for dgo71 and packs. We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald because you can't turn on a TV, computer, or radio without being bombarded about them. How many black men that were murdered by other black men in the last few years can the two of you name? I did all of those out of memory, so no cheating and researching names.

People dont care whos being killed, they care about who is doing the killing.

But yeah, like i said black victims matter too. There are a lot people in jail who did crimes against black people.


Trayvon Martin i really dont think should be classified like the group of black victims that are named that died in the hands of police. He was not killed by a police offer for one. Its a shame taxpayer money was spent on the trial that had no chance for a conviction. The guy that killed Travyon is not a saint and appears to have a lot of issues as well.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Strawman argument much? How about instead, how many unarmed white men can you name that have been killed by police while surrendering? Take your time, I'll wait.

Who was killed by the police while surrendering? I can list several people who were killed by the police for FTC - failure to comply. Do you really believe your own BS?

[jhs5120]

Institutional racism undoubtably exists in police departments around the world.

When american citizens tried to protest this egregious bias against African Americans they were met with, "why can't they protest peacefully?" or "riots only make things worse, they should protest without causing damage." Well, Colin Kaepernick found a way to protest peacefully. I welcome the effort.

[dgo71]

I haven't deflected anything. The only deflection is my question going unanswered. Packs is not intellectually equiped to answer it, so here's your shot. Why do black male high school students have a dropout rate that is twice the rate for white male high school students? You (at least I think it was you, it was someone) mentioned earlier in the thread about blacks not having the same opportunities as whites. Seems like they're not taking advantage of their greatest opportunity - an education.

How the hell should I know? You don't know either. Your study didn't seem to take cause into consideration. Maybe a kid from a single-parent family had to dropout to support his family. Maybe the kid wanted to be a criminal. Maybe any one of a thousand things in between. Regardless, does the dropout rate being disproportiante have anything to do with how laws, practices and rights are applied to all races? No, it doesn't. You're arguing apples and oranges (again, deflecting) trying your damdest to downplay that racial inequality exists. I'm not going to argue with you about things that are not related to the very simple matter at the heart of this debate.

BTW, I asked two questions that went unanswered, and was willing to let it go, but since you're such a proponent of addressing questions that are asked directly, here's your chance to enlighten us all.

The first question from Page 2 was:
You're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and black?

Second, also on Page 2:
If Brock Turner was black to do you think there's any chance he'd be a free man right now?

The second question was mostly rhetorical and any answer would be purely speculative, but I bet anyone who asks it honestly would arrive at the same answer. Let's hear about your thoughts on #1. Tell me more about how minorities bring it on themselves. Break out some stats, because we all know there's absolutely no way numbers can be manipulated to prove any point you want them to. With a straight face, look us in the eye and tell us everyone has the same freedom to walk down a street at night without being treated differently based on their appearance.

[dgo71]

Who was killed by the police while surrendering? I can list several people who were killed by the police for FTC - failure to comply. Do you really believe your own BS?

Oh for Christ's sake, fine. Take out the surrendering part. See how you latch onto the part of the question of that isn't even the issue?

Name me some white people who were shot for FTC, or for any damn reason.

Since apparently not complying is cause enough to be shot, let's hear those names. Plenty of black men's names seem to come right to mind, so surely, in this land of complete and total equality, there are just as many white names that met the same fate. Go.

[jhs5120]

Who was killed by the police while surrendering? I can list several people who were killed by the police for FTC - failure to comply. Do you really believe your own BS?

Failing to comply isn't punishable by death.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Failing to comply isn't punishable by death.

No, but reaching for a gun is sufficient reason to kill them.

[jhs5120]

No, but reaching for a gun is sufficient reason to kill them.

38 unarmed African American men and women were killed in 2015 alone.

[1952boyntoncollector]

38 unarmed African American men and women were killed in 2015 alone.

how many police officers were killed by people that were unarmed..i know of a courtroom officer that was killed by a prisoner who took the officers gun a few months ago that was in the news

[jhs5120]

how many police officers were killed by people that were unarmed..i know of a courtroom officer that was killed by a prisoner who took the officers gun a few months ago that was in the news

Less than 3.

[dgo71]

38 unarmed African American men and women were killed in 2015 alone.

Including most of these people, at least in regards to "reaching for a gun":
We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald


how many police officers were killed by people that were unarmed..i know of a courtroom officer that was killed by a prisoner who took the officers gun a few months ago that was in the news

Again.....this disproves racial inequality HOW??? You guys seem to have a hell of a hard time staying on topic.

[vintagetoppsguy]

38 unarmed African American men and women were killed in 2015 alone.

So what? Thats only about half of the white men that were killed by cops. Where is your outrage there? Keep spouting your leftist loon agenda.

[jhs5120]

So what? Thats only about half of the white men that were killed by cops. Where is your outrage there? Keep spouting your leftist loon agenda.

Per Washington Post, unarmed Americans killed by police officers:

Black: 38
White: 32
Hispanic: 18

Since there are roughly five times as many white Americans as black Americans, you would expect around 190 unarmed white deaths for it to be proportional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/

Adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown of the U.S. population, he said black men are 3.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men. But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black suspects than white ones.

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

[jhs5120]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/

Well since there are five times more white American citizens than black American citizens, more black people are killed proportionately.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.dcd700fd14f6

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well since there are five times more white American citizens than black American citizens, more black people are killed proportionately.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.dcd700fd14f6

That is not the conclusion of the analysis. Read it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Per Washington Post, unarmed Americans killed by police officers:

Black: 38
White: 32
Hispanic: 18

Since there are roughly five times as many white Americans as black Americans, you would expect around 190 unarmed white deaths for it to be proportional.

The Washington Post data I read said 50% of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, 26% were black.

[jhs5120]

The Washington Post data I read said 50% of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, 26% were black.

Unarmed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

[vintagetoppsguy]

Unarmed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

Lets just cut the crap with all the statistics. My question still remains. Where is the outrage over the white victims of police shootings? And why do white people handle it differently than black people do????????? White people don't form hate groups (and, yes, BLM is a hate group) that advocates the killing of cops.

[jhs5120]

Lets just cut the crap with all the statistics. My question still remains. Where is the outrage over the white victims of police shootings? And why do white people handle it differently than black people do?????????

You want to know the difference? Police shootings aren't the issue. They are relatively infrequent all things considered. However, they represent the tipping point of a community (whether it be Baltimore, Ferguson, etc.) that has been subject to extreme levels of discrimination by the very people who are hired to protect them.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You want to know the difference? Police shootings aren't the issue. They are relatively infrequent all things considered. However, they represent the tipping point of a community (whether it be Baltimore, Ferguson, etc.) that has been subject to extreme levels of discrimination by the very people who are hired to protect them.

How are they being discriminated against by the police? You're confusing discrimination with justifiable reason to profile. When a certain group of people are responsible for a majority of the crime, doesn't it make sense that the police are going to scrutinize them more whether you agree that its fair or not?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Less than 3.

So if officers have been killed by unarmed citizens. Plus there have to be occasions where the attack to the officer was thwarted and/or was injured short of death. So not every unarmed citizen being killed can be considered wrong..

Just saying X amount of unarmed citizens being killed doesnt say whether the killing was justified..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Jake, here's a pretty good read. I know you'll read it fair and objectively...

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

No. 5 really hits hard.

[jhs5120]

How are they being discriminated against by the police? You're confusing discrimination with justifiable reason to profile. When a certain group of people are responsible for a majority of the crime, doesn't it make sense that the police are going to scrutinize them more whether you agree that its fair or not?

I don't care about what is fair. I care about upholding the constitution. The DOJ published their findings of the Baltimore Police Department (BPD) a few weeks ago, below is the report.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/883366/download


"We find reasonable cause to believe that BPD engages in a pattern or practice of discriminatory policing against African Americans. Statistical evidence shows that the Department intrudes disproportionately upon the lives of African Americans at every stage of its enforcement activities."

"Arrests without probable cause: from 2010–2015, supervisors at Baltimore’s Central Booking and local prosecutors rejected over 11,000 charges made by BPD officers because they lacked probable cause or otherwise did not merit prosecution. Our review of incident reports describing warrantless arrests likewise found many examples of officers making unjustified arrests. In addition, officers extend stops without justification to search for evidence that would justify an arrest. These detentions—many of which last more than an hour— constitute unconstitutional arrests."

"In the five and a half years of data we examined, African Americans accounted for 95 percent of the 410 individuals BPD stopped at least 10 times. One African American man in his mid-fifties was stopped 30 times in less than 4 years. Despite these repeated intrusions, none of the 30 stops resulted in a citation or criminal charge."

The report even states that traffic stops of white individuals were more likely to result in a citation/criminal charge.

"In addition, BPD’s disproportionate enforcement against African Americans is suggestive of intentional discrimination because the racial disparities are greatest for enforcement activities that involve higher degrees of officer discretion. In the five years of arrest data we reviewed, African Americans accounted for a larger share of charges for highly discretionary misdemeanor offenses than for other offenses, including: 91 percent of those charged solely with trespassing, 91 percent of charges for failing to obey an officer’s orders, 88 percent of those arrested solely for “impeding” and 84 percent of people charged with disorderly conduct."


There is no freedom loving American who can read this report and believe the Constitution is being protected by the city of Baltimore.

You may believe that police need to resort to extrajudicial killings, arrests without cause and discrimination to uphold the peace, but it doesn't seem to be working. I think affording every American citizen their Constitutional rights might be worth a try - it sounds crazy, but it might just work.

[dgo71]

Lets just cut the crap with all the statistics. My question still remains. Where is the outrage over the white victims of police shootings? And why do white people handle it differently than black people do????????? White people don't form hate groups (and, yes, BLM is a hate group) that advocates the killing of cops.

I love how you whine when nobody answers your questions but you continue to ignore questions posed to you.

Also, "justified profiling"? Haha, wow...that pretty much says it all. You're basically saying minorities don't even DESERVE to be treated equitably. I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks he isn't racist cuz he has a black "friend."

[vintagetoppsguy]

I love how you whine when nobody answers your questions but you continue to ignore questions posed to you.

Also, "justified profiling"? Haha, wow...that pretty much says it all. You're basically saying minorities don't even DESERVE to be treated equitably. I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks he isn't racist cuz he has a black "friend."

Yes, in your leftest loon mind, that's what I'm saying :rolleyes:

[jhs5120]

Yes, in your leftest loon mind, that's what I'm saying :rolleyes:

Insults aside, you should take a few minutes tonight (or tomorrow) and skim through the DOJ report. It's truly sickening what our fellow American citizens are being subjected to. Most people don't care much for our Constitutional rights any more David, but to those of us who are still trying to protect them, it is appalling to see what is going on in Baltimore. I'll repost the report for you:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/883366/download

[vintagetoppsguy]

I care about upholding the constitution.

Umm, yeah, you've proven that's not true in some of our gun debates. :rolleyes:

[jhs5120]

Umm, yeah, you've proven that's not true in some of our gun debates. :rolleyes:

I am not going to turn this into a second amendment debate (you can PM me if you want).

The fact is that there are entire government entities that are systematically violating the fourth amendment rights of American citizens. You asked me how African Americans are being discriminated against, I responded with conclusive evidence that answers this question for you. Do you believe African Americans are not discriminated against by the Baltimore PD?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Insults aside, you should take a few minutes tonight (or tomorrow) and skim through the DOJ report. It's truly sickening what our fellow American citizens are being subjected to. Most people don't care much for our Constitutional rights any more David, but to those of us who are still trying to protect them, it is appalling to see what is going on in Baltimore. I'll repost the report for you:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/883366/download

What I find sickening and appalling are the DOJ crime statistics committed by blacks:

62% of robberies
57% of murders
45% of assaults

Yet they only make up 13% of the population. Let's just both agree to be sickened and appalled and end this, deal?

[jhs5120]

Let's just both agree to be sickened and appalled and end this, deal?

Fair enough David. As always, this was a very interesting discussion. Happy collecting :cool:

[vintagetoppsguy]

Fair enough David. As always, this was a very interesting discussion. Happy collecting :cool:

Thank you! You too, Jason.

[dgo71]

Yes, in your leftest loon mind, that's what I'm saying :rolleyes:

That's exactly what you said though. Maybe you don't understand the words you used or the context you used them in? Blacks commit more crimes so pay more attention to blacks than anyone else based solely on skin color. Profiling is by definition based on stereotype and assumption and not facts, so if in your mind that can ever be justified you're clearly part of the problem.

[itjclarke]

Does Kaepernick not standing make us more or less uncomfortable than this?
244579

Reading through this thread makes me more uncomfortable than any of these mentioned sporting gestures ever would.

To me this just shows how increasingly polar our country has become. This is definitely a worthy conversation topic, but within this thread it doesn't seem to matter how reasonably an argument is made (by either side), it's met with total rigidity, and what looks like a lot of pent up anger.

I don't have the want, nor the energy to really engage in the discussion here, especially since no one is changing their opinions anytime soon, but will say its tone disheartens me to say the least. I think in a lot of ways we're in a period of regression, and overall empathy is on short supply.

(ADDING-- Never been a Kaep fan but if he or others want to use their platform to make a statement, while also facing the possible repercussions, more power to them. If you love something but don't agree, you don't "leave it", you work toward fixing it)

[EvilKing00]

I have a question for dgo71 and packs. We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald because you can't turn on a TV, computer, or radio without being bombarded about them. How many black men that were murdered by other black men in the last few years can the two of you name? I did all of those out of memory, so no cheating and researching names.

just to add - there are more whites killed by police than blacks, and its rarely ever talked about. Yes there are more % of whites in the usa so that souldnt be expected.

heres a little article on it from a liberal paper - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/

you rarely here about these whites killed by cops though - people need to wake up and take responsibility for their own actions

[EvilKing00]

after 168 posts id just like to remind everyone a part of the 1st post in this thread - "Maybe just a vote and no posts so we dont get too heated up!"

:D

[Leon]

Per Washington Post, unarmed Americans killed by police officers:

Black: 38
White: 32
Hispanic: 18

Since there are roughly five times as many white Americans as black Americans, you would expect around 190 unarmed white deaths for it to be proportional.

Yes, but the whites actually did what they were told when ordered and didn't resist. Therefore they don't get shot as often. It goes back to respect and parenting.

[bobbyw8469]

What I find sickening and appalling are the DOJ crime statistics committed by blacks:

62% of robberies
57% of murders
45% of assaults

Yet they only make up 13% of the population. Let's just both agree to be sickened and appalled and end this, deal?

This is the part that sickens me! Yet Black Lives Matter!! (only when a white cop shoots a black criminal however). It is like the wild, wild, west in some cites (Chicago), yet there is no outrage over those deaths.

[vintagetoppsguy]

That's exactly what you said though. Maybe you don't understand the words you used or the context you used them in? Blacks commit more crimes so pay more attention to blacks than anyone else based solely on skin color. Profiling is by definition based on stereotype and assumption and not facts, so if in your mind that can ever be justified you're clearly part of the problem.

You’re making it only about skin color though, just to push your agenda. I’m saying profile groups based on their common characteristics. If it happens to be race, so be it. Or religion, or sexuality, or gender or whatever. Authorities profile based on the description of the ones committing the crimes and the location in which the crimes are committed. So, if a certain group of people are committing most of the crime, doesn’t it make sense to profile them?

Do you really think the authorities should be hanging around bingo halls profiling little old ladies as terrorism suspects, or should they be looking at radicalized Muslims? Do you think the authorities should be investigating white collar crime in the ghetto, or should they be looking on Wall Street? If you want to set up a prostitution sting, are you going to target male or female johns?

Profiling is just a fact of life. I don’t see anything wrong with that, I’m glad it happens! You don’t like it? Fine, I have a solution. Instead of complaining about the problem, do something about the crime. When the crime statistics get more proportionate with race statistics, that’s when you’ll see change. If it were white people committing most of the crime, white people should be profiled more often that other races. Same for Hispanics, Asians, or whoever.

Sound like a violation of Constitutional rights? Maybe so, but you lefties have no problem at all trampling all over the 2nd Amendment. How do you choose which part of the Constitution you want to uphold and what part of the Constitution you want to repeal or change?

Does all this sound racist to you? Sorry, it isn’t meant to be, it’s just a fact of life. But if it does, then I’ll change my stance on the matter. Forget skin color. Most of the crimes are committed by brown eyed males. Let’s profile brown eyed males instead of blacks. Better? Because like I already said before, you profile based on common characteristics. But it just sounds so much better for your leftist agenda when you make it about race though, right?

I'll close with this. If you're a black male, err, I mean brown eyed male in this country, your chances of killing a police officer are more likely than being killed by a police officer. Who is standing up (or in this case sitting down) for them?

[barrysloate]

I haven't posted in over a year, but after slogging through this thread I felt compelled to say something. And it was ltclarkes post at #167 that got me to do so. Here's what I take away from reading this thread: Everybody is shouting, and nobody is listening.

I've been saying for awhile now that I think America is very close to a civil war. No, not like the one from the 1860's- we won't see cannon fire or rifles fitted with bayonets- but we are pretty much in an ideological one. I am really afraid that after the election in two months, the country is going to explode. And I admit I have absolutely no idea how it can be prevented.

To me the worst problem in America now is nobody is willing to listen to or even consider an opposing point of view. Nobody is willing to even concede that the other guy might be making a good point because it is considered capitulating. You're a loser if you admit the other guy may be right. And the rhetoric and the venom seems to be getting worse by the day.

Here is something I will leave you with: if the other guy has an opinion that differs from yours, calling him an idiot is not cool. You are not solving the problem, but becoming part of it. I really worry for the future of this country.

And I won't be posting again, so please excuse me if I don't answer a post sent my way. Thanks for listening.

[tschock]

To me the worst problem in America now is nobody is willing to listen to or even consider an opposing point of view. Nobody is willing to even concede that the other guy might be making a good point because it is considered capitulating. You're a loser if you admit the other guy may be right. And the rhetoric and the venom seems to be getting worse by the day.

Here is something I will leave you with: if the other guy has an opinion that differs from yours, calling him an idiot is not cool. You are not solving the problem, but becoming part of it. I really worry for the future of this country.

Not directed at you Barry, but this probably fits here best. Many who are paying attention believe that is the whole point, to foment that discontent. Taken in historical context, the black shootings by police officers are WAY down from 40 years ago.

http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113

[bbcard1]

I would have been a lot more of an impactful statement had it been made when he was a relevant player.

[1952boyntoncollector]

That's exactly what you said though. Maybe you don't understand the words you used or the context you used them in? Blacks commit more crimes so pay more attention to blacks than anyone else based solely on skin color. Profiling is by definition based on stereotype and assumption and not facts, so if in your mind that can ever be justified you're clearly part of the problem.

I think african americans (non muslim) feel safest from being profiled when they board a airplane. None will given a second look as they could be in a car with a taillight out. Now a wierd white guy with glasses and trench coat with heavy shoes, lets strip search that guy.

Ok now a few whitish muslim guys on the plane, lets strip search those guys since most hijackers/bombers have been those guys. I know many whites would be relieved if the whole plane was full of inner city chicago street kids on their way to some school event versus a bunch of middle aged white guys or non black clearly practicing muslims or very white poeple that looked like they have lived off the grid for 10 years. Those few white passengers would be begging to sit in between two african americans..

I think the average white american would gladly pay an extra carry on fee (why do they charge for carry ons now by the way) to be guaranteed to be on a plane with all black (hijack safe) americans.

Anyway, just having fun with stereotyping. Just having fun..

[ALR-bishop]

" I hope life is not just a big joke, because I don't get it".... Jack Handey

[1952boyntoncollector]

" I hope life is not just a big joke, because I don't get it".... Jack Handey

When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.” ....George Carlin

[vintagetoppsguy]

This probably deserved a thread of its own...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/09/07/nfl-star-ben-watson-when-stand-pledge-to-continue-fight-against-injustice-and-preserve-best-america.html

Ben Watson, you are a true American hero. Colin Kaepernick, you are scum that's about as relevant in the NFL as Ryan Leaf.

God bless you, Ben, and hope you make a full recovery and are back on the field soon.

[chaddurbin]

To me the worst problem in America now is nobody is willing to listen to or even consider an opposing point of view. Nobody is willing to even concede that the other guy might be making a good point because it is considered capitulating. You're a loser if you admit the other guy may be right. And the rhetoric and the venom seems to be getting worse by the day.

Here is something I will leave you with: if the other guy has an opinion that differs from yours, calling him an idiot is not cool. You are not solving the problem, but becoming part of it. I really worry for the future of this country.


you're right barry. people tend to watch the news channel that aligns with their viewpoint, they follow and read people online that reinforces their beliefs. if you don't like something or someone you unfollow it, so your worldview intake only strengthen what you believe in and it hardens over time. even tho the world is shrinking with internet and social media lines are being drawn and viewpoints are extremely divisive.

[bnorth]

you're right barry. people tend to watch the news channel that aligns with their viewpoint, they follow and read people online that reinforces their beliefs. if you don't like something or someone you unfollow it, so your worldview intake only strengthen what you believe in and it hardens over time. even tho the world is shrinking with internet and social media lines are being drawn and viewpoints are extremely divisive.

I completely agree with the news pushing their own agenda. It is amazing how many things that are reported in our news about other countries is 100% BS.

[bn2cardz]

I am not going to attempt to argue one point or another, but I thought I would share the thoughts of a coworker of mine. She is a widowed black mother of 4 sons with the youngest just having gone to college. She lives and raised her boys in Ferguson, MO.

She went on rant after rant during the Ferguson riots. But it wasn't an anti-police/pro-riot stance as some would make you believe, it was the exact opposite. Yet her side of the story wasn't the one the news would cover. She would constantly said that if there was any racism in the cops in Ferguson she would have known it. Yet her sons were never pulled over for something that wasn't deserved (one son ran from the cops when he realized he didn't have his ID). She hated that Michael Brown was considered anything but a "thug" stating him and his whole family were trouble in the community.

The stuff she has said would make a white man seem racist if they said it. Her major point, though, was that it is no longer a skin color issue. She believes that it is a social issue. That a black guy that doesn't look like a "thug" and treats people respectful will be treated right. A white guy that acts like a "thug" and disrespects is going to be treated the same as the black guy acting the same way.

I just thought I would share her thoughts since she has a perspective that most on this board don't have.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I am not going to attempt to argue one point or another, but I thought I would share the thoughts of a coworker of mine. She is a widowed black mother of 4 sons with the youngest just having gone to college. She lives and raised her boys in Ferguson, MO.

She went on rant after rant during the Ferguson riots. But it wasn't an anti-police/pro-riot stance as some would make you believe, it was the exact opposite. Yet her side of the story wasn't the one the news would cover. She would constantly said that if there was any racism in the cops in Ferguson she would have known it. Yet her sons were never pulled over for something that wasn't deserved (one son ran from the cops when he realized he didn't have his ID). She hated that Michael Brown was considered anything but a "thug" stating him and his whole family were trouble in the community.

The stuff she has said would make a white man seem racist if they said it. Her major point, though, was that it is no longer a skin color issue. She believes that it is a social issue. That a black guy that doesn't look like a "thug" and treats people respectful will be treated right. A white guy that acts like a "thug" and disrespects is going to be treated the same as the black guy acting the same way.

I just thought I would share her thoughts since she has a perspective that most on this board don't have.

interesting perspective but the Doctor that treated all of those police officers that were shot in dallas was black and he said when he doesnt wear the doctors coat and drives on the street he is pulled over or is stopped when walking on the street and he doesnt dress like a thug...we can all point to examples for anything

Interesting in an article about him being a rare black doctor
The lack of black male doctors is bad for patients. White doctors undertreat the pain of black patients, studies have shown. And research by the University of Virginia found that white medical students had "fantastical" beliefs about the bodies of blacks. Half of the white medical students surveyed thought that blacks had less sensitive nerve endings and that their blood clotted more quickly than the blood of a white person.

[packs]

Please inform your coworker that the Department of Justice found the Ferguson Police Department and it's court system to be racially bias toward African Americans. That was a government finding, not an opinion:

Even relatively routine misconduct by Ferguson police officers can have significant consequences for the people whose rights are violated. For example, in the summer of 2012, a 32-year-old African-American man sat in his car cooling off after playing basketball in a Ferguson public park. An officer pulled up behind the man’s car, blocking him in, and demanded the man’s Social Security number and identification. Without any cause, the officer accused the man of being a pedophile, referring to the presence of children in the park, and ordered the man out of his car for a pat-down, although the officer had no reason to believe the man was armed. The officer also asked to search the man’s car. The man objected, citing his constitutional rights. In response, the officer arrested the man, reportedly at gunpoint, charging him with eight violations of Ferguson’s municipal code. One charge, Making a False Declaration, was for initially providing the short form of his first name (e.g., “Mike” instead of “Michael”), and an address which, although legitimate, was different from the one on his driver’s license. Another charge was for not wearing a seat belt, even though he was seated in a parked car. The officer also charged the man both with having an expired operator’s license, and with having no operator’s license in his possession. The man told us that, because of these charges, he lost his job as a contractor with the federal government that he had held for years.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Please inform your coworker that the Department of Justice found the Ferguson Police Department and it's court system to be racially bias toward African Americans, blah, blah, blah...

This the same DOJ that up until recently was led by AG Eric Holder, who he himself said that white people can't be victims of racial injustice. Imagine that.

[bobbyw8469]

This the same DOJ that up until recently was led by AG Eric Holder, who he himself said that white people can't be victims of racial injustice. Imagine that.

LOL! Got 'em!!!!!!!

[tschock]

This the same DOJ that up until recently was led by AG Eric Holder, who he himself said that white people can't be victims of racial injustice. Imagine that.

No, this is the same DOJ that covered up voter intimidation, ran Fast and Furious, was run by an AG that lied under oath, interfered with local non-partisan elections*, objected to the release of the Michael Brown robbery video, and continues to ignore FIOA requests. This is the DOJ we should take at face value and trust in. :rolleyes:

* "The Justice Department’s ruling, which affects races for City Council and mayor, went so far as to say partisan elections are needed so that black voters can elect their “candidates of choice” - identified by the department as those who are Democrats and almost exclusively black."

[Mikehealer]

My post has nothing to do with the original topic.
I'm just happy to see that Barry is OK. I miss your posts, as you are one of my favorite members on Net54, although we have never talked, emailed or messaged each other. I always found your contributions to be intelligent, articulate, funny and informative. You helped make this an enjoyable forum to visit, I can't say it's all that enjoyable anymore.

Thanks Barry, I wish you well.

The spelling and grammar has also spiraled down to an all time low in your absence!!

Take care
Mike

OK, carry on with the debate.

[Eric72]

My post has nothing to do with the original topic.
I'm just happy to see that Barry is OK. I miss your posts, as you are one of my favorite members on Net54, although we have never talked, emailed or messaged each other. I always found your contributions to be intelligent, articulate, funny and informative. You helped make this an enjoyable forum to visit, I can't say it's all that enjoyable anymore.

Thanks Barry, I wish you well.

The spelling and grammar has also spiraled down to an all time low in your absence!!

Take care
Mike

OK, carry on with the debate.

+1

[vintagetoppsguy]

No, this is the same DOJ that covered up voter intimidation, ran Fast and Furious, was run by an AG that lied under oath, interfered with local non-partisan elections*, objected to the release of the Michael Brown robbery video, and continues to ignore FIOA requests. This is the DOJ we should take at face value and trust in. :rolleyes:

* "The Justice Department’s ruling, which affects races for City Council and mayor, went so far as to say partisan elections are needed so that black voters can elect their “candidates of choice” - identified by the department as those who are Democrats and almost exclusively black."

So, let's connect the dots. The head of the DOJ is the Attorney General. Eric Holder was the former Attorney General. The AG reports directly to...we'll, I won't say it because I don't want to be accused of getting political, but we all know who he reports to. Eric Holder's boss (wink, wink) promised a transparent administration, did he not? Fast and Furious wasn't very transparent, was it? Ignoring Freedom of Information Act requests isn't very transparent, is it? I gotta agree with you. We shouldn't take anything at face value or trust anything the DOJ has to say, especially some flawed bias report.

[Eric72]

....I won't say it because I don't want to be accused of getting political...

This entire thread has been political, no?

Frankly, I am surprised it has not yet been locked.

[bobbyw8469]

It's not been locked because there really is no need to. No one has gotten really ugly. To lock a thread reeks of censorship. Leon, I don't believe, is a fan of censorship. The thread is in the proper location on the board, and everyone is just debating. That is my two cents on things (for what it's worth).

[bnorth]

This entire thread has been political, no?

Frankly, I am surprised it has not yet been locked.

Not locked, it needs to go POOF like the Nazi flag thread.

[Eric72]

Not locked, it needs to go POOF like the Nazi flag thread.

Ben,

I do not know about the Nazi flag thread to which you are referring.

As it pertains to Net54, to Leon's credit, he does not moderate this site like the folks on the other side of the street, so to speak.

Still, I remain surprised this thread is not yet locked. It is filled with political views, name calling, and vitriol.

As one prominent member once suggested, Net54 very well may have jumped the shark.

Best regards,

Eric Perry

[bnorth]

Ben,

I do not know about the Nazi flag thread to which you are referring.

As it pertains to Net54, to Leon's credit, he does not moderate this site like the folks on the other side of the street, so to speak.

Still, I remain surprised this thread is not yet locked. It is filled with political views, name calling, and vitriol.

As one prominent member once suggested, Net54 very well may have jumped the shark.

Best regards,

Eric Perry

A member was trying to sell a vintage Nazi Flag in the proper section with Leons approval. Then a few idiots had to make posts in the thread that had nothing to do with buying it or asking questions about it. Sadly that has become common place lately.

Not sure what happened that it went POOF though.

[Leon]

If it isn't enjoyable you should consider leaving. Why do something you don't enjoy? I never like to see people go but if they aren't happy then it is for the better.....imo

edited to add, on another subject, yes in one of the very few deletions of a thread the Nazi banner BST thread was deleted. It didn't offend me personally but since it did others it got deleted. Each situation is different and it is sometimes a fluid call. I make mistakes like anyone....but to me the drama has died down a little bit on the board lately. Probably just me though since some changes were made in membership. Whatever, I just want peace and happiness and less drama....that is all.

lastly I see no reason to lock the thread so far.....as I think I had mentioned many posts ago, if we can give our own point of view and try our best to not make it too political, we can discuss these things here.. but if it gets too politically toned (and it almost is up there, be careful) it will be put to bed..... Happy Collecting....


My post has nothing to do with the original topic.
I'm just happy to see that Barry is OK. I miss your posts, as you are one of my favorite members on Net54, although we have never talked, emailed or messaged each other. I always found your contributions to be intelligent, articulate, funny and informative. You helped make this an enjoyable forum to visit, I can't say it's all that enjoyable anymore.

Thanks Barry, I wish you well.

The spelling and grammar has also spiraled down to an all time low in your absence!!

Take care
Mike

OK, carry on with the debate.

[bn2cardz]

Please inform your coworker that the Department of Justice found the Ferguson Police Department and it's court system to be racially bias toward African Americans.



So you want me to tell an African American woman with 4 sons that live and have lived their entire lives in Ferguson. Some one that lived and breathed all of it through the eyes of a Ferguson resident with black skin, that she is wrong about what she encounters everyday because you read an article that said otherwise? I gave her perspective as someone living it, not a bias opinion based on political beliefs or anything else. As she said to me "if it was really that bad, I am sure with 4 black sons I would have heard something by now."

I know, as does she, what the DOJ report reads. Again her opinion is that it is more about the way the people conducted themselves rather than the color of their skin. I am sorry but as a white male I will not argue with a widowed black woman with 4 sons living through all this daily that she doesn't know what she is talking about and that she is being racially profiled.

[egri]

So you want me to tell an African American woman with 4 sons that live and have lived their entire lives in Ferguson. Some one that lived and breathed all of it through the eyes of a Ferguson resident with black skin, that she is wrong about what she encounters everyday because you read an article that said otherwise? I gave her perspective as someone living it, not a bias opinion based on political beliefs or anything else. As she said to me "if it was really that bad, I am sure with 4 black sons I would have heard something by now."

I know, as does she, what the DOJ report reads. Again her opinion is that it is more about the way the people conducted themselves rather than the color of their skin. I am sorry but as a white male I will not argue with a widowed black woman with 4 sons living through all this daily that she doesn't know what she is talking about and that she is being racially profiled.

Reading Packs's reply reminded me of the time in the 1970s at a meeting of the RMS Titanic Historical Society when Ruth Becker, who survived the sinking as a child, was addressing the attendees, and told them how she had witnessed Titanic break in two before sinking. Almost immediately, one of the Titanic "experts" seated next to her grabbed the microphone away from her and announced that she only thought she had seen the ship break in two; it had actually sunk intact, and Becker was mistaken. Becker grabbed the microphone back and told him "I was there". About ten years later, the wreck was discovered in two pieces.

[packs]

It's actually not like that at all. You're placing scientific speculation against studied facts. My point was one person' anecdotal evidence does not trump a Department of Justice investigation and she may not be aware of the indignities experienced by the people around her, who live their own lives independent of her own. I didn't tell you to get into an argument with her either.

[Leon]

I also believe the DOJ is very, very racist at this point in time. Anything they say is suspect immediately, to me. Anything else and I think I get too political....This whole debate can sort of be summed up by asking all people to take accountability for their actions. If I do good it is my fault, if I do bad it is my fault. Everyone needs to live it....just my pre-tax, half cent of wisdom ....

It's actually not like that at all. You're placing scientific speculation against studied facts. My point was one person' anecdotal evidence does not trump a Department of Justice investigation and she may not be aware of the indignities experienced by the people around her, who live their own lives independent of her own. I didn't tell you to get into an argument with her either.

[1952boyntoncollector]

A member was trying to sell a vintage Nazi Flag in the proper section with Leons approval. Then a few idiots had to make posts in the thread that had nothing to do with buying it or asking questions about it. Sadly that has become common place lately.

Not sure what happened that it went POOF though.

I think you have to be living under a rock to assume the posting of a nazi flag wont elicit some comments that have nothing to do with buying the nazi flag.

To compare that posting with the sale of a baseball card as far as having the same b/s/t eitiquette is a bit of a stretch

[bn2cardz]

It's actually not like that at all. You're placing scientific speculation against studied facts. My point was one person' anecdotal evidence does not trump a Department of Justice investigation and she may not be aware of the indignities experienced by the people around her, who live their own lives independent of her own. I didn't tell you to get into an argument with her either.

I find it enlightening to hear her perspective as someone with no ulterior motive nor influence. I thought I would share this perspective with the understanding that it is all hearsay to anyone that I am sharing it with. I acknowledge that she only has one perspective. I also understand that you don't know her so you have to take what I am second hand reporting to you with a grain of salt. I just thought I would share this seldom heard voice from someone that has an opinion based off a life lived in the circumstances and not someone forming an opinion with an outside-looking-in perspective.

I can tell you, though, that she is not ignorant about her surroundings and any suggestions otherwise by me or anyone else will not lead to a peaceful back and forth conversation, hence my use of the word "argue".

[ALR-bishop]

Flags can get you in trouble, even a Flags Of The World ISIS trading card...bam :)

[tschock]

My sentiments on trying to provide "studied facts" as well as other items to consider can be summed up below:

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

[ibuysportsephemera]

1) If you are interested in a coach's (and by extension the entire organizations) take on the National Anthem...watch the clip below from HBO's Hard Knocks about the LA Rams training camp. Way to go Coach Jeff Fisher...great example that (IMO) should be followed by all others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzwAWOXlbg

2) My Father in Law is a retired Police Officer and many of my good friends are PO's. One is a PO in the South Bronx in New York City and he works in a neighborhood that is almost 100% minority. So, all of the arrests, questionings etc. make it look like the PO's are racist.

Unless your family member is a PO or you are friendly with a PO you cannot even begin to understand how difficult the job is and how skewed the statistics are.

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

Flags can get you in trouble...

Apparently so. Now the Gadsden Flag is considered racist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/wearing-dont-tread-on-me-insignia-could-be-punishable-racial-harassment/?utm_term=.f89946075fac

Maybe they could shorten the list by telling us what's not racist instead of telling us what is racist? Just a thought.

http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Organizing-for-Action-Defiles-Gadsden-Flag-for-Obamacare-e1395698434883.jpg

[vintagetoppsguy]

BTW, Leon, why is Packs still allowed to post w/o his full name? :confused:

[ibuysportsephemera]

BTW, Leon, why is Packs still allowed to post w/o his full name? :confused:

+1...I was thinking the same thing.

Jeff

[autograf]

David.......my side is somewhere squarely in the middle but you brought up Ben Watson and I hadn't seen that info on him, and I'm thoroughly impressed with. In it, however, he makes the statement............

"Kaepernick's actions and similar actions by figures of the past and present are a vital part of our journey and a key component of the equation for social change and should be respected as such."


Assuming you saw that, although you likely don't agree with it. Eloquent words from Watson throughout that article. Thanks for linking it.

[EvilKing00]

for those who dont follow hockey



u sit for the national anthem you sit for the game


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/09/07/team-usa-hockey-coach-says-hell-bench-any-player-who-sits-for-national-anthem.html

[Leon]

+1...I was thinking the same thing.

Jeff

Packs? You know the rules....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Assuming you saw that, although you likely don't agree with it.

Hello, Tom. Actually, I did see that and I do agree with it. I voted #2 - Dont like what hes doing but hes got the right to do it.

He's within his legal right to do it. But just because it's legally right, doesn't mean it's morally right. You can go to Japan (or many European countries) and have legal consensual sex with a 14 year old girl if you want to. Does that make it morally right?

But, just because it's his legal right to do so doesn't mean that the team can't cut him for it. Again, I voted #2, but I think as a consequence he should be cut from the team. I can go to Colorado and smoke dope on my vacation. Perfectly legal. But my employer also has the legal right to piss test me when I get back and fire me for violating their drug policy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I was reading an article this morning about some female soccer player that was also kneeling (or maybe it was sitting) for the national anthem. The opposing home team found a way around that. They played the national anthem before the players took the field, not giving her an opportunity to kneel. Hopefully all the NFL teams will do the same.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I was reading an article this morning about some female soccer player that was also kneeling (or maybe it was sitting) for the national anthem. The opposing home team found a way around that. They played the national anthem before the players took the field, not giving her an opportunity to kneel. Hopefully all the NFL teams will do the same.

will be tough to do that. There would be countermeasures from the players as well. Cant imagine baseball for example with the players not being able to take part in the anthem

[vintagetoppsguy]

Cant imagine baseball for example with the players not being able to take part in the anthem

Play it in the locker room as it plays throughout the stadium. The players can choose to sit or stand.

[packs]

My name is Frank I'm having a civil discussion with some posters and ignoring others who are calling for my name. I don't feel the need to engage those posters and will continue not to.

[vintagetoppsguy]

2 things:

1). It's your FULL name
2). Yes, it's been pretty civil, but you're also giving an opinion which still requires your FULL name

[packs]

This matter is closed.

[ibuysportsephemera]

It's a shame that people who engage in online discussion/conversation don't have enough conviction in their beliefs to post their full name. Just my 2¢.

Jeff

[Mdmtx]

Rules must not apply to packs. He must be repressed and therefore needs a special exclusion to the rules the rest of us follow. Amazing that a person spewing the crap he has been spewing would have the opinion he is above the rules. Lmfao.

Mark Medlin

[ALR-bishop]

Name should be out there like everyone else. Just my opinion though :)

At least Colin owned it.

[Leon]

Rules must not apply to packs. He must be repressed and therefore needs a special exclusion to the rules the rest of us follow. Amazing that a person spewing the crap he has been spewing would have the opinion he is above the rules. Lmfao.

Mark Medlin

Rules apply to everyone and that is why he is not posting anymore, The alternative is to have him edit out all of his comments, which I prefer not to ask him to do.

[bobbyw8469]

Name should be out there like everyone else. Just my opinion though :)

At least Colin owned it.

Colin is protesting the police's treatment of men of color. I am with David James on this one. He should be more angry at the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit. If that percentage was lower, I think the problem would diminish. So how about instead of protesting the police, how about protesting the criminals??? Now THERE is a novel idea!

[jhs5120]

Colin is protesting the police's treatment of men of color. I am with David James on this one. He should be more angry at the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit. If that percentage was lower, I think the problem would diminish. So how about instead of protesting the police, how about protesting the criminals??? Now THERE is a novel idea!

He's protesting the treatment of the hundreds of thousands of American citizens who have committed no crime, yet have been arrested, beaten or even killed for it.

I think that's a cause we can all get behind.

[Kingcobb]

What aggravates me about this whole situation is at my 13 year old daughters junior high volleyball game last night 2 girls from the team they were playing did not stand for the national anthem. One of the girls was white the other black I don't think these kids should be worried about this at this age. But thanks to Colin more young people are entering into to this anti-american mindset. Needless to say instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become. Sorry for the rant.

[EvilKing00]

What aggravates me about this whole situation is at my 13 year old daughters junior high volleyball game last night 2 girls from the team they were playing did not stand for the national anthem. One of the girls was white the other black I don't think these kids should be worried about this at this age. But thanks to Colin more young people are entering into to this anti-american mindset. Needless to say instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become. Sorry for the rant.

Thats awful.

[FourStrikes]

instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become.

sad, but true...myself, I think about how lucky we all are to live in such a great overall country and
while I try to remain positive looking toward the future, in many ways (and for many reasons) I'm
seeing a potential sh!tstorm on the horizon, and hoping I'm wrong.

JMO

DS

[AustinMike]

But just because it's legally right, doesn't mean it's morally right.

So who made you the arbiter of what's moral and what isn't? Just because you don't think it's morally right doesn't mean that it isn't morally right to Colin. You trying to force your morals on others? That's very un-American.

Colin is protesting the police's treatment of men of color. I am with David James on this one. He should be more angry at the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit. If that percentage was lower, I think the problem would diminish. So how about instead of protesting the police, how about protesting the criminals??? Now THERE is a novel idea!

Wow! This statement is really something. Are you really trying to justify the murder of unarmed blacks and the harassment of blacks by police because of what you consider an "obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit"? Wow, just wow!

What aggravates me about this whole situation is at my 13 year old daughters junior high volleyball game last night 2 girls from the team they were playing did not stand for the national anthem. One of the girls was white the other black I don't think these kids should be worried about this at this age. But thanks to Colin more young people are entering into to this anti-american mindset. Needless to say instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become. Sorry for the rant.

Again, I'm amazed. Voicing a concern about the treatment of a segment of the population is an "anti-american (sic) mindset." And by the way, what's with not capitalizing the "A" in "American?" A simple typo or is that some form of protest and you're being anti-American?

To all: just because a person doesn't think like you do doesn't make them anti-American nor does it mean they hate this country. In this case, Colin thinks blacks are being targeted by police and so he protested. You either agree with him that blacks are being targeted by police or you don't. That's all this should be about.

However, I must reiterate, I am really stunned, sickened, and saddened that some here actually agree with Colin that blacks are being targeted by the police but that it's justified by "the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit."

[jhs5120]

What aggravates me about this whole situation is at my 13 year old daughters junior high volleyball game last night 2 girls from the team they were playing did not stand for the national anthem. One of the girls was white the other black I don't think these kids should be worried about this at this age. But thanks to Colin more young people are entering into to this anti-american mindset. Needless to say instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become. Sorry for the rant.

Criticism of your country is healthy if done in a peaceful manner. Seems like their little protest did its job.

[vintagetoppsguy]

He's protesting the treatment of the hundreds of thousands of American citizens who have committed no crime, yet have been arrested, beaten or even killed for it.

I think that's a cause we can all get behind.

He says he's protesting racial injustice, but what has he really done for the black community? If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't he fined by the NFL for using racial slurs?

Oh the hypocrisy!

[jhs5120]

He says he's protesting racial injustice, but what has he really done for the black community? If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't he fined by the NFL for using racial slurs?

Oh the hypocrisy!

He donated $1,000,000 PLUS 100% of the proceeds from his jersey sales.

Either way, he is protesting the imprisonment, beating and murder of over one hundred thousand American citizens who did not commit a single crime.

A cause I'm sure every American can support.

[ALR-bishop]

I have said far too much in here, out

[1952boyntoncollector]

Play it in the locker room as it plays throughout the stadium. The players can choose to sit or stand.

Then when they make a pitching change a protesting player can sit for an extra long period of time etc...always a way to protest and not be against the rules..

[AustinMike]

He says he's protesting racial injustice, but what has he really done for the black community? If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't he fined by the NFL for using racial slurs?

Oh the hypocrisy!

Maybe you forgot this or this is not correct?

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/15/6985459/colin-kaepernick-fined-racial-slur-nfl-nflpa-49ers

[vintagetoppsguy]

Maybe you forgot this or this is not correct?

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/15/6985459/colin-kaepernick-fined-racial-slur-nfl-nflpa-49ers

The referee heard it (he threw the flag), Lamarr Houston confirmed to the Chicago Tribune that he said it, and the NFL fined him for it...which was upheld even after Kaepernick's appeal.

[PM770]

2 things:

1). It's your FULL name
2). Yes, it's been pretty civil, but you're also giving an opinion which still requires your FULL name

Maybe he's like Cher or Pele?

[Leon]

Maybe he's like Cher or Pele?

Actually a full name is required when giving an opinion of a person or company So just an opinion won't require a full name. That issue with that member is dead in this thread, carry on.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Actually a full name is required when giving an opinion of a person or company So just an opinion won't require a full name. That issue with that member is dead in this thread, carry on.

I strongly disagree. I believe he gave several opinions of people. Here's one. "Castile was stopped and murdered". The officer that stopped him has not been arrested, charged or convicted of murder. To call him a murderer is a very strong opinion.

Leon, look at post #25 and #26 in this thread. You made Derrick put his name in the post and he gave no opinion at all.

Packs has been allowed to post anonymously and make very controversial statements in many controversial threads - assault weapon ban thread, Redskins name change thread and more. I don't understand why he is allowed to continue to do so. Is he being protected for some reason?

[Leon]

It is over, move on. I assure you he will be more careful in the future if he doesn't want his full name disclosed. Go argue with some others please... He isn't being protected I just haven't enforced the rule as much as Maybe I needed too. So that is my fault...

I strongly disagree. I believe he gave several opinions of people. Here's one. "Castile was stopped and murdered". The officer that stopped him has not been arrested, charged or convicted of murder. To call him a murderer is a very strong opinion.

Leon, look at post #25 and #26 in this thread. You made Derrick put his name in the post and he gave no opinion at all.

Packs has been allowed to post anonymously and make very controversial statements in many controversial threads - assault weapon ban thread, Redskins name change thread and more. I don't understand why he is allowed to continue to do so. Is he being protected for some reason?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Understood. I'll be more careful in the future as well.

[AustinMike]

The referee heard it (he threw the flag), Lamarr Houston confirmed to the Chicago Tribune that he said it, and the NFL fined him for it...which was upheld even after Kaepernick's appeal.

"The referee heard it" - yeah, like refs are never wrong, right?

"Lamarr Houston confirmed to the Chicago Tribune that he said it" - yeah, "After Colin Kaepernick was penalized for using “inappropriate language” in a loss to the Bears on Sept. 14, Chicago defensive end Lamarr Houston said he didn’t hear the 49ers’ quarterback say anything to him." http://www.sfgate.com/49ers/article/Bears-Lamarr-Houston-now-says-Colin-Kaepernick-5775952.php He changed his story later.

"the NFL fined him for it" - yeah, now you're either being willfully ignorant by ignoring the original article I linked to or you're lying. Here's a line from the article - "Colin Kaepernick was still fined by the NFL despite the league admitting the quarterback didn't use a racial slur, and no one is quite sure why." Do you see that? The NFL admits the quarterback didn't use a racial slur. And yet you come back with "the NFL fined him for it." A blatant lie.

So you have CK who says he didn't use a racial slur, the ref who says CK did, and LH who said CK didn't say anything and then changed that to CK did use a racial slur, a tape that shows CK saying something like "Get the f--- back," many other people around the incident who are never quoted in any article that I've seen confirming that CK used a racial slur, and lastly, the NFL admitting that CK didn't use a racial slur. And you want to stick with CK used a racial slur and the NFL fined him for it?

Please, continue on without me and don't let the facts get in the way of your witch hunt.

[autograf]

must be F with Leon Friday.......

[Leon]

Understood. I'll be more careful in the future as well.

It truly is my fault. I think I might need to change the rule in bold to include debates but I try to keep the forum as open and opinionated as possible. It's not an easy task, honestly.

[Topps206]

People are calling for a boycott of the NFL on Twitter.

Whether you agree or disagree with Kaep's decision is your call. You have every right to boycott for whatever reason, but am I the only one who sers backwards priorities here?

A child abuser in back in the NFL after missing 2014. I shed a tear when I saw the pictures of his bruised son.

The NFL allowed a dog fighter back into the league after he did a prison sentence.

Many players on different rosters have abused their spouse.

A Big Ten school is honoring a coach who knowingly employed a child molester on his coaching staff.

Yet the massive outrage is over Kaepernick not standing for the anthem, something which is legal both under U.S. rules and NFL rules? He didn't victimize anyone. He ruined no one's life.

I personally wouldn't have done it, but I think from a societal standpoint, our priorities are out of whack.

[EvilKing00]

Were the 80's & 90's a more patriotic and safer time or im i just old?

Also, is this the most posts in a thread in water cooler section ever?

[jhs5120]

Were the 80's & 90's a more patriotic and safer time or im i just old?

A more obedient populous.

[tschock]

A more obedient populous.

Or a more prosperous one.

[AustinMike]

For those who think this country is going downhill and are searching for a reason, might I suggest it's not people peacefully protesting but is in reality - :eek::rolleyes::D

[tschock]

For those who think this country is going downhill and are searching for a reason, might I suggest it's not people peacefully protesting but is in reality - :eek::rolleyes::D

Literal LOL there. That should be the point on which to lock the thread! :)

[clydepepper]

It truly is my fault. I think I might need to change the rule in bold to include debates but I try to keep the forum as open and opinionated as possible. It's not an easy task, honestly.



IMO - The real problem with debates is that there are no longer any compromises...no middle ground - Everyone just still to their guns and rails against the other side...accomplishing exactly nothing...except, perhaps, raising everyone's blood pressure.

I look for the day when agreements can once again be reached.

NOW, you can lock the thread!