71 O-Pee-Chee mailday question

[bswhiten]

This is the back corner of a PSA 8 pop 2 one higher (the #1 71 OPC psa registry collector has the other 8 and the single 10) Hrabosky #594 71 OPC that I just purchased for $320. The seller didn't show a pic of the back or disclose there is clearly a bent corner.

I have requested a return but the seller doesn't accept returns. Will eBay honor the return in a situation like this?

This was the description:
"1971 OPC Hrabosky rookie graded PSA 8. This is a great card with sharp corners and no creases, marks or stains. It has great color, focus and gloss and the back is clean."

I hate sending it back because I wanted the 8, but my 7 doesn't have a bent corner. PSA doesn't allow this on OPC 8's right? Or am I missing something...Thanks

[savedfrommyspokes]

How did you request a return....just as a regular return or as item not as described?
Through ebay, ANY seller has to take an item back that is not as described (NAD). So if you open a case for the card being NAD, and very specifically mention that the seller's description states the corners are "sharp", which one is clearly not, he will be obligated to accept the return, at his cost. Include a picture of this corner ding also. The seller will not be able to dispute this as being a case of buyer's remorse as you can clearly dispute his claim regarding the corners in the description.

My guess is something happened when the card was being encapsulated, either way, the seller should have disclosed this.

[Bcwcardz]

Now you know why he didn't scan the back. That's a little deceptive. I'm sure the seller will say he didn't know (which I doubt) and the card is graded. Most likely you will get the " that's how they graded it, bent corner and all" . A reputable seller would refund you but I don't know and I wish you luck.

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[bswhiten]

I'm hoping the seller doesn't give me grief, but yes I filed it as not as described and requested a return. I find it hard to believe that the seller didn't notice this bend... oh well. Live and learn.

[DBesse27]

Wow, bummer man. Would've been a sweet card. But you'll get your refund.

[bobsbbcards]

Seller has no choice. They can say "No returns," but they're deluding themselves.

[bswhiten]

Thanks guys. So far I haven't heard back from the seller.
Ebay said to contact them if he hasn't reached out by next Tuesday. We shall see...

[bswhiten]

The seller isn't budging....


Aug 18

The seller sent you a message


Message

Hi Ben, I am sorry but there are no returns on graded cards. That’s the whole point of grading- we don’t have to haggle about condition. Your opinion about the card’s condition doesn’t matter (and my opinion doesn’t either). Only the opinion of the guy who graded the card is what counts. If this were an ungraded card I would gladly return your money and take the card back but I paid good money for the grading service and its sole purpose is to resolve condition disputes. That little corner issue is probably why the card was only graded an “8”. It would be a 9 or 10 otherwise (and worth about 10 times what you paid for it). I have sold thousands of graded cards on ebay over the years and have not had an issue like this and I feel it is not my duty to take back cards that you think are overgraded. Gord


Aug 17

You requested a return

Reason for return

Doesn't match description or photos

Comments

There is a clear folded corner on the back of the card that I wasn't presented in the description or photos. I wanted to contact you to accept a return before having to go through eBay. Thanks. Ben Whitener

[savedfrommyspokes]

The seller will not have a choice but to accept this return once you allow ebay to decide the case. Ebay WILL decide this case in your favor once you turn it over to them. From there they will provide you a return label. The seller could try to say this is a case of buyer's remorse, but simply refer to his description of the corner in the description. If he does claim buyer's remorse, call and talk with a live CSR and explain what you have here.

[bbcard1]

I the seller has a point so far as the graded card goes, but I think you have a beef with TGC.

[bswhiten]

I the seller has a point so far as the graded card goes, but I think you have a beef with TGC.

If he would have not said this in the description I might agree he has a point:
"1971 OPC Hrabosky rookie graded PSA 8. This is a great card with sharp corners and no creases, marks or stains. It has great color, focus and gloss and the back is clean."

The card clearly doesn't have sharp corners and it has a fold/crease. oh well...

[Bcwcardz]

I knew he would tell you that. He 100% knew it was there and wanted to pawn it off at full price. I just find it so shady he didn't show the corner in the pics or disclose. He knew he couldn't sell it if he did. I'd be really pissed on this one. He's just the stereotypical card dealer.

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[bswhiten]

I knew he would tell you that. He 100% knew it was there and wanted to pawn it off at full price. I just find it so shady he didn't show the corner in the pics or disclose. He knew he couldn't sell it if he did. I'd be really pissed on this one. He's just the stereotypical card dealer.

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Yea I was hoping he would be a reputable seller, but looks like I will have to get eBay to force the issue. Live and learn...

[bswhiten]

PSA is buying the card back. How about that...wow. I never thought that would happen.

[Bcwcardz]

That is a shocker. Glad you got it made right.

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[bswhiten]

Well originally I was told PSA wanted to buy the card back, but just found out that after they reviewed the card that they were able to "fix" the bend in the back corner, reholdered the card, and will be mailing the slabbed PSA 8 card back to me. I'll post a pic once I have it in hand.

[autograf]

spooned it down, did they? wow. just wow.

[Republicaninmass]

Probably happened when slabbing...a shame

[bswhiten]

I'm just hoping some of my PSA 7 or 8 Mantle's don't have this same tampering "fix".

[bobsbbcards]

Well originally I was told PSA wanted to buy the card back, but just found out that after they reviewed the card that they were able to "fix" the bend in the back corner, reholdered the card, and will be mailing the slabbed PSA 8 card back to me. I'll post a pic once I have it in hand.

Um.....what?

[bswhiten]

And somehow the pop report now reads pop 1 (psa 8) instead of pop 2.

[toppcat]

"fix"?

[Eric72]

If PSA has become a card doctor, I have a major problem with their decision.

I get the whole, "they started the company by slabbing a trimmed card" discussion. However, they didn't actually trim the card.

[swarmee]

I would escalate this up the chain with their management. That is inappropriate and deceptive, and they should not be party to it.

[DBesse27]

I would escalate this up the chain with their management. That is inappropriate and deceptive, and they should not be party to it.

+1. Ask to speak to Veronica.

[bswhiten]

+1. Ask to speak to Veronica.

Unfortunately, the newly reholdered PSA 8 is en route to me now. The card was reviewed with same day service under "Management Review". Veronica has been extremely helpful on any issues I have ever had. She is the customer support representative that told me it was "fixed". I'm anxious to see what the corner looks like under a loupe.

[bobsbbcards]

Send a link to this thread to Mr. Orlando. This is troubling to say the least.

[DBesse27]

Send a link to this thread to Mr. Orlando. This is troubling to say the least.

It's terrible! PSA is admitting to doctoring a card!

[bswhiten]

I hate to say it because I really wanted an "8" graded for my Master Set, but I am probably just going to sell the card and stick with my "7" that I sent in raw to be graded...even if the bend looks perfect now.

[Stonepony]

It's terrible! PSA is admitting to doctoring a card!

Incredible!!!! This goes way, way beyond what we've talked about with TPGs.
This is fraud.

[savedfrommyspokes]

PSA is buying the card back. How about that...wow. I never thought that would happen.

Did you contact PSA because ebay would not allow you to return the item or because it was less hassle to have PSA just buy the card back?

[buymycards]

So, what is the eBay username of the seller you bought it from?

So now you have an altered card in a PSA 8 holder, and you are going to sell it? Are going to disclose that the card is altered? If not, that makes you just as big of a crook as the person you bought it from. Not to mention that PSA shouldn't be in the business of altering cards.

This is wrong on so many levels that I can't believe this is happening.

[buymycards]

The seller is "glabow" . It is hard to believe this card got an 8 in the first place.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-O-Pee-Chee-OPC-594-Cardinal-Rookies-with-Hrabosky-PSA-8-/381728854433?hash=item58e0d011a1%3Ag%3ArwoAAOSwIgN Xp-sa&nma=true&si=cG7h09kE1oGgDkJ03qP9p%252BvzDVc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[bswhiten]

The seller is "glabow" . It is hard to believe this card got an 8 in the first place.


It's actually a nice card considering 71 OPC other than the corner bend.
I doubt i will sell it since the only other 8 and lone 10 are owned by one guy that has no desire to sell ...and sadly high grades on the registry are addictive.

[bswhiten]

PSA mail day. I am not trying to throw PSA under the bus as I do believe they do a damn good job grading, but this does bring up some interesting questions concerning TPG's.
I looked at the "fixed" corner under magnification (loupe) and you can't tell the corner was tampered with. The images on the right are the card today.

[stlcardsfan]

I have folded some flaps over on raw cards so they look better in my binder, but to see that PSA does the same thing is mind boggling! I figured my cards after doing that were 3's or 4's at best!!!!

[DBesse27]

I can still definitely tell where it was, so that card doesn't deserve an 8 and you should be compensated for the difference.

[bswhiten]

I can still definitely tell where it was, so that card doesn't deserve an 8 and you should be compensated for the difference.

Trust me, if they offered compensation I would take it. Knowing how the card has been "fixed" kills it for me.

[bobsbbcards]

Trust me, if they offered compensation I would take it. Knowing how the card has been "fixed" kills it for me.

They would offer compensation if you called Joe and pointed him at this thread.

[mattjc1983]

Well, never paid to have a card graded, and finding out that PSA, a company IN THE BUSINESS of determining if a card is altered, just admitted to altering a card...pretty much eliminates any chance that I ever will.


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[Stonepony]

How this is not the most controversial and talked about post of the year is beyond me. PSA received a damaged card and altered ( repaired) it so it would have the appearance of a high grade. Is this being swept under the rug? Crazy

[Eric72]

Did they receive it damaged or are they the ones that caused the damage?

[Stonepony]

Did they receive it damaged or are they the ones that caused the damage?

It sounds like ( from the OP). They received a nice card- which they graded an 8. OP received the card in holder from them with a bent corner. He sent it back to PSA and they " fixed" it and placed in back in a 8 holder

[JollyElm]

You bring a masterpiece watercolor to Sotheby's for auction. As an employee is preparing the painting for display and sale, she spills her pumpkin spice latte on the painting and smears an area of the pigment. Whoops. She breaks out a beginning watercolor set she picked up at K-Mart and 'fixes' the problem. Is that okay??????

[irv]

Very interesting, and disturbing thread! :eek:

I haven't sent any of my cards in for grading, but this one pretty much seals the deal for me. SGC it is.

[bswhiten]

Very interesting, and disturbing thread! :eek:

I haven't sent any of my cards in for grading, but this one pretty much seals the deal for me. SGC it is.
Sadly, I'm sure SGC isn't void of mistakes either. SGC graded a high $ Mantle of mine that PSA said was recolored...not by me. Of course PSA could have been wrong on that one, but I don't know. And BGS went out of favor for me a long time ago when I found out they grade sheet cut cards with no hand cut qualifier (I learned the hard way).

For me, I will continue to use PSA because I think for the most part they have been consistent with their grading. In fact, I am about to send out another 40+ card submission.

I think PSA just went a little too far with customer satisfaction. They knew I bought the 8 and they wanted me to keep the 8 even though they did spill their "pumpkin spice latte" on the card :) I would have rather just gotten a PSA 3 back from them and been compensated for the difference.

[steve B]

Yes, SGC makes mistakes. And until recently I figured they'd make things right if they did. Sadly, that's not the case. (Not a card of mine)

But I think what PSA did here goes way beyond a mistake. Missing that corner or damaging it in the process of grading/slabbing is a mistake. Pressing the foldover back down and reslabbing with the same grade is NOT a mistake, it's a deliberate action. And entirely the wrong thing to do.

I understand the attraction of grading/registry etc., but I don't get sticking with an organization that has just proven themselves to be untrustworthy and dishonest.

Unless they're saying that the card is an 8 even with the slightly peeled corner? But that's another big question mark isn't it.

Steve Birmingham

[bswhiten]

I agree it wasn't a mistake Steve... You could say that them grading the trimmed Wagner was a mistake, but not this. And no way that bend would meet their standards of an "8".

[conor912]

As long as people are willing to pay $320 for a $20 card, this will go on.

[Eric72]

Bumping this to the top because I believe this is a serious issue that should be discussed at length. PSA is, "fixing" cards. How does this not warrant serious discussion?

[Stonepony]

+1, where are the veteran members?

[DBesse27]

Bumping this to the top because I believe this is a serious issue that should be discussed at length. PSA is, "fixing" cards. How does this not warrant serious discussion?

Agreed. Somebody needs to show this thread to Joe Orlando and demand an explanation.

[irv]

How this is not the most controversial and talked about post of the year is beyond me. PSA received a damaged card and altered ( repaired) it so it would have the appearance of a high grade. Is this being swept under the rug? Crazy

Bumping this to the top because I believe this is a serious issue that should be discussed at length. PSA is, "fixing" cards. How does this not warrant serious discussion?

+1, where are the veteran members?

It is surprising this isn't being discussed any further, but at the same time, I understand those who have many PSA high end graded cards, would likely like this to just disappear?

[bswhiten]

I emailed the top brass at PSA last Monday. Haven't heard back yet...

[Rookiemonster]

The pic of the corner looks like two different cards to me . I can't believe something like this but now you gotta ask how many times has this happened .

[bswhiten]

The pic of the corner looks like two different cards to me . I can't believe something like this but now you gotta ask how many times has this happened .

It's definitely the same card. The customer service manager told me what they did to "fix" it.

[Rookiemonster]

It's definitely the same card. The customer service manager told me what they did to "fix" it.

Lol not saying it isn't it just looks different in the two examples. I've had my own issues with psa so I don't doubt that they just run encase theses card as fast as possible. With little to no care .

[bswhiten]

I wish it were a different card that was a True 8! :)

[bswhiten]

I thought I would let the members who were interested in this post know that I just got off the phone with Joe O. and he gave me an explanation as to how the bend occurred and why it was fixed.

He told me how the bend more than likely happened and told me how rare this actually occurs. He was really cool about the whole thing and like many of you guys assumed said that it was probably caused by the "booming" process (human error) when they sonically seal the card. Human error was to blame and he said PSA grades anywhere from 120k-150k cards a month, so sometimes mistakes do occur.

He said most of the time the mistakes during the sealing process lead to a noticeably crimped card where PSA will then buy back the card from the original submitter, but that this specific bend was different. The only reason they were able to push the paper back down was because there was no break in the paper, therefor no bend was left in the paper when it was pressed back down.

He was irritated that the eBay seller wouldn't take the card back, and asked me for his contact info as well, because he said a reputable seller would have known to take the card back and then deal directly with PSA.

To wrap it up... he said PSA would buy the card back or let me keep it as an 8. I told him I would take it back since they stood behind the grade but he said that at anytime in the future if I wasn't comfortable with it that they would buy it back.

For me, at least, they provided a reasonable explanation and I'm not concerned that this happens on a frequent basis. Thanks to Bob for providing me contact info. Jackie was extremely nice and professional to deal with.

[irv]

I thought I would let the members who were interested in this post know that I just got off the phone with Joe O. and he gave me an explanation as to how the bend occurred and why it was fixed.

He told me how the bend more than likely happened and told me how rare this actually occurs. He was really cool about the whole thing and like many of you guys assumed said that it was probably caused by the "booming" process (human error) when they sonically seal the card. Human error was to blame and he said PSA grades anywhere from 120k-150k cards a month, so sometimes mistakes do occur.

He said most of the time the mistakes during the sealing process lead to a noticeably crimped card where PSA will then buy back the card from the original submitter, but that this specific bend was different. The only reason they were able to push the paper back down was because there was no break in the paper, therefor no bend was left in the paper when it was pressed back down.

He was irritated that the eBay seller wouldn't take the card back, and asked me for his contact info as well, because he said a reputable seller would have known to take the card back and then deal directly with PSA.

To wrap it up... he said PSA would buy the card back or let me keep it as an 8. I told him I would take it back since they stood behind the grade but he said that at anytime in the future if I wasn't comfortable with it that they would buy it back.

For me, at least, they provided a reasonable explanation and I'm not concerned that this happens on a frequent basis. Thanks to Bob for providing me contact info. Jackie was extremely nice and professional to deal with.

That is all very well, and I do understand that things happen, but if I were to submit a card like that, there is no way it would receive an 8, that I am aware of?

I am sure, if you disclose this info when you decide to sell, you won't receive "8" prices, but if you are OK with that or have no plans to sell, then, like you did, just keep the card.

[bswhiten]

I am sure, if you disclose this info when you decide to sell, you won't receive "8" prices, but if you are OK with that or have no plans to sell, then, like you did, just keep the card.

Yea, no plans to sell, but at least Joe told me that if I ever feel uncomfortable with the decision to keep it that PSA would buy it back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In light of current events I thought this thread was worth another look. See especially post 35.