Nightmares at the National

[7nohitter]

You've been to the National; it was a great time EXCEPT FOR:


We've all read about high dollar collectibles that mysteriously walk off at the National. What about other negative experiences?

The 'Legend' whose autograph you waited in line for who trns out to be a jerk.

The dealer who can't be bothered to look up, even you're asking about his '33 Goudey PSA 6 Ruth.

The hotel where the housekeeping crew accidentally threw away your newly acquired John McGraw autograph because they thought it was a piece of scrap paper.

LET'S HEAR the HORROR STORIES!

[bcookie]

You've been to the National; it was a great time EXCEPT FOR:


We've all read about high dollar collectibles that mysteriously walk off at the National. What about other negative experiences?

The 'Legend' whose autograph you waited in line for who trns out to be a jerk.

The dealer who can't be bothered to look up, even you're asking about his '33 Goudey PSA 6 Ruth.

The hotel where the housekeeping crew accidentally threw away your newly acquired John McGraw autograph because they thought it was a piece of scrap paper.

LET'S HEAR the HORROR STORIES!



It was great except for Kareem Abdul Jabar cancelling at the last minute.
I waited in line outside the building for over 2 hours to finally be told he was cancelling..

This was Anaheim 1991

[frankbmd]

It was great except for Kareem Abdul Jabar cancelling at the last minute.
I waited in line outside the building for over 2 hours to finally be told he was cancelling..

This was Anaheim 1991

Interesting on two counts

1. In Anaheim in 1991 Don Larsen didn't cancel

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/autographs/7615/larsen-berra

:):):)

and

2. I once waited 2 hours at a McDonalds in Salt Lake City for a personal appearance by John Stockton also in 1991 (or close to it). He never showed, but the french fries were hot.;)

[7nohitter]

Frank,

Always love seeing the dual-signed ticket!

[frankbmd]

Frank,

Always love seeing the dual-signed ticket!

.........and I got the Yogi pre mortem.;)

[Steve_NY]

Yes, the stories you have heard are true. When you have many expensive items for display in one location for a number of days, there are certainly those that come in to the show just to try to steal them.

I have done every National but 4 of them, and have had my share of items stolen. Any one who tells you differently is either lying or blind. I consider it the cost of doing business.

But I have evolved and have learned from my mistakes. Rather than list the biggest items every taken, I would prefer to offer National dealers some advice on how to protect against such thefts, like losing a 52 Mantle or more expensive items.

1 -- My first layer of display is now all my showcases. Even if the show is slow, LOCK them anyway, and put your most expensive "cards" in those locked showcases.

2 -- The second layer behind the showcases should be less expensive items that they can reach to look at.

3 -- The third layer which they can't reach would be more expensive items. When they try to reach them, you jump in and help them.

4 -- NEVER let anyone come into your booth areas. They can keep you occupied while their accomplices go to work.

5 -- Consider adding a 360 degree small inexpensive security camera that you can record and play back immediately on your IPhone, IPAD or Droid. Consider keeping the system active 24 hours to protect your booth.

6 -- Maybe others can add other ways to protect against having horror stories?

Here is a horror story that almost happened to me:

*****************8

Back in the day, before body bags, I used to travel to the National with just four small suitcases to display. It was in Anaheim, and when I checked into the hotel, I was checked into one of the exterior freestanding units. My antennas went off immediately and I returned to the reservations desk, and quickly switched to a hotel room, which I felt offered better security. A day or two later, I drove by that area and found police cars all over and the entire unit was smashed in and covered by large bamboo and trees. I never found out what had happened but we were at Disney when it transpired. Just imagine if I had left my suitcases in there when I went to Disney with my family, as it still was not set up day.

It really disappoints me and makes me think about stopping setting up at shows when something gets stolen, but I keep coming back for more.

Why? The vast majority of collectors and attendees would never even consider taking anything without paying for it. Still it can't hurt to be overly cautious.


Steve

[7nohitter]

Yes, the stories you have heard are true. When you have many expensive items for display in one location for a number of days, there are certainly those that come in to the show just to try to steal them.

I have done every National but 4 of them, and have had my share of items stolen. Any one who tells you differently is either lying or blind. I consider it the cost of doing business.

But I have evolved and have learned from my mistakes. Rather than list the biggest items every taken, I would prefer to offer National dealers some advice on how to protect against such thefts, like losing a 52 Mantle or more expensive items.

1 -- My first layer of display is now all my showcases. Even if the show is slow, LOCK them anyway, and put your most expensive "cards" in those locked showcases.

2 -- The second layer behind the showcases should be less expensive items that they can reach to look at.

3 -- The third layer which they can't reach would be more expensive items. When they try to reach them, you jump in and help them.

4 -- NEVER let anyone come into your booth areas. They can keep you occupied while their accomplices go to work.

5 -- Consider adding a 360 degree small inexpensive security camera that you can record and play back immediately on your IPhone, IPAD or Droid. Consider keeping the system active 24 hours to protect your booth.

6 -- Maybe others can add other ways to protect against having horror stories?

Here is a horror story that almost happened to me:

*****************8

Back in the day, before body bags, I used to travel to the National with just four small suitcases to display. It was in Anaheim, and when I checked into the hotel, I was checked into one of the exterior freestanding units. My antennas went off immediately and I returned to the reservations desk, and quickly switched to a hotel room, which I felt offered better security. A day or two later, I drove by that area and found police cars all over and the entire unit was smashed in and covered by large bamboo and trees. I never found out what had happened but we were at Disney when it transpired. Just imagine if I had left my suitcases in there when I went to Disney with my family, as it still was not set up day.

It really disappoints me and makes me think about stopping setting up at shows when something gets stolen, but I keep coming back for more.

Why? The vast majority of collectors and attendees would never even consider taking anything without paying for it. Still it can't hurt to be overly cautious.


Steve

Steve-

Great suggestions!

[7nohitter]

.........and I got the Yogi pre mortem.;)

Hm, post-mortem autographs. I wonder how far away TOPPS is from considering that one!

[irv]

such thefts, like losing a 52 Mantle or more expensive items.


Steve

Ouch!! :mad:

You, or someone you know?

I never considered thefts were a problem/issue at these shows, but I guess I was naive thinking it didn't go on.

From the last show I attended at the spring Toronto Expo, it wasn't that busy but I did notice sometimes only 1 guy running a booth with multiple customers.

I waited until I had the sellers attention but not everyone did as I was interrupted more than once by a pushy customer.
I have never ran/been in one as a seller but I can't imagine I'd be anything less than a burned out frazzled wreck once the week-end was done:eek:

[BeanTown]

I don't Know if this would be considered a nightmare... But it seems every year when walking around the floor you run Into an item you gotta have! The price may be a little high and the seller might not be flexible so you walk away. Then after looking around your mind keeps coming back to that item you walked away from. You say what the heck, I'll buy it and you walk back and it's been sold! Then, you get back home to only discover its be auctioned off and the price it realized is way more than the asking price from the National.

[Buythatcard]

Several years ago, I attended the Chicago National and had a great time. I bought $7,000 worth of cards for my inventory. Doesn't sound like a nightmare until I tried to catch my flight back to NJ.

The stupidest decision that I ever made was to pack all the cards into my suitcases. They were just too heavy to carry onto the plane. I checked my bags and was ready to board when they decided to cancel my flight. The next flight they put me on was also cancelled. Finally 13 hours later I was back in NJ.
I ran down to the luggage carousel to wait for my bags. I waited and waited until no more bags came off. My bags along with $7,000 worth of cards were not there. I almost had a heart attack. I just saw my business go up in flames.

I was told that they would search for the bags which probably got left behind in Chicago due to the cancellations. I waited for 4 days until they actually delivered it to my house. I opened them immediately and every card was still there.

I guess you can consider this a Nightmare after the National.

[Danny Smith]

My personal national nightmare is the horrific smell of folks that just don't understand how important a shower and deodorant are in maintaining good hygeine.

[Exhibitman]

So far no nightmares. You have to be proactive whether you are a buyer or a seller.

One thing to consider is cash management. If I have a wad I split it between my wallet and other storage so if I lose one I don't get wiped out.

Never check anything you would mind losing. Even consider fedex to send home heavy stuff.

Use the hotel safe for your stuff. Most have in room safes now.

[Jewish-collector]

I don't Know if this would be considered a nightmare... But it seems every year when walking around the floor you run Into an item you gotta have! The price may be a little high and the seller might not be flexible so you walk away. Then after looking around your mind keeps coming back to that item you walked away from. You say what the heck, I'll buy it and you walk back and it's been sold! Then, you get back home to only discover its be auctioned off and the price it realized is way more than the asking price from the National.

Jay - That happens all the time. But don't say what the heck, say WTF.

[njdunkin1]

Jay - That happens all the time. But don't say what the heck, say WTF.

That's starting to get repetitive, friend. Would you mind?

No card show nightmares for me. Haven't even been to the National yet, I hope to go next time one is in Chicago. Occasionally I find a card I really want, but it seems that many dealers way overprice their cards!
NJ Dunkin

[Steve_NY]

No, I never lost a '52 Mantle but others have. At almost every National there are incidents. I have lost $300 - $500 items, but I relate every loss to what that item actually cost me, and what it will cost to replace.

By the way, I thought of another couple of ways to protect against thefts:

7-- Never give anyone, including other sellers, the permission to look through your showcases. They often say that they have an interest in lots of items in one specific showcase. Guess what happens? You wouldn't even know you are missing an expensive card -- they are that good.

8 -- The same goes for boxes that you have under the table. They want to see everything, and you will never even know that you have lost some valuable cards.

9 -- Don't help more than 2 customers personally at the same time; only one if they are on different sides of your display;. It's a common tactic to split you up on purpose.
If a customer really wants what you have on display, they will stick around or come back. If not, such is life. I would rather lose a sale than a stack of T205s or worse.

As you can see, I practice what I preach, but would sure love to hear what others do to protect themselves.

Steve

[Jewish-collector]

I would suggest always keeping the showcases locked. As I understand, a card was stolen from the corner of a showcase when the dealer was busy helping someone at the other end of his display.

[swarmee]

Hm, post-mortem autographs. I wonder how far away TOPPS is from considering that one!

They used sticker autos of Kirby Puckett and Oscar Taveras a year after they died.

[buymycards]

I had a great time at the National in Chicago last year and I met many decent dealers with some great cards. I can't wait to go back to Chicago next year. I had one problem:

I stopped at a booth that was operated by CardsOne out of Tennessee. I talked to the owner, Billy May, and I decided to buy a pallet of 500,000 cards from him. We talked about the cards for quite some time. I asked him about the condition of the cards, the types of cards that would be included, etc., and he kept assuring me that I would be extremely happy with this purchase. Now I am thinking - well, he paid a few thousand bucks for his tables and his crew and he is set up at the National, he should be a reputable dealer. He had a nice color catalog, and he seemed very friendly and knowledgeable.

I made the mistake of paying him with cash, rather than a credit card. He had promised that he would ship the cards on a certain date, but the cards didn't arrive. Every time I called, someone would answer the phone and tell me that the Billy wasn't in, or that he was busy. Finally, 3 weeks after the due date, a truck arrived at my house and we unloaded a pallet of cards. When I started going through the cards, I was shocked. 75% of the cards were heavily damaged. They looked like they had been run through a machine and the machine made several indentations in each card. Most of the cards were baseball cards from 1988 through 1993, even though I specifically asked about that and was told that there would be a few of those, but not very many.

After going through several boxes and finding the same types of damage in each box, I tried to contact Billy. He won't answer his phone, he won't respond to emails or Facebook messages, he won't answer questions at his contact page on his website. I tried many times over several months, but he will not respond. I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but he didn't respond to them either. He has 15 complaints, all with the same type of scam. I finally ended up putting 500,000 cards in my dumpster.

So, the National was great except for my experience with one dealer. You should stay away from Billy May and CardsOne. If I had paid with a credit card I could have had my money returned, so that is my fault. Be careful about who you buy from.

Rick

[bxb]

So far no nightmares. You have to be proactive whether you are a buyer or a seller.

One thing to consider is cash management. If I have a wad I split it between my wallet and other storage so if I lose one I don't get wiped out.

Never check anything you would mind losing. Even consider fedex to send home heavy stuff.

Use the hotel safe for your stuff. Most have in room safes now.

Good points, Adam.

However, all should be aware that hotel room safes may not be that safe:

http://digg.com/video/lock-pick-hotel-safes

[7nohitter]

I had a great time at the National in Chicago last year and I met many decent dealers with some great cards. I can't wait to go back to Chicago next year. I had one problem:

I stopped at a booth that was operated by CardsOne out of Tennessee. I talked to the owner, Billy May, and I decided to buy a pallet of 500,000 cards from him. We talked about the cards for quite some time. I asked him about the condition of the cards, the types of cards that would be included, etc., and he kept assuring me that I would be extremely happy with this purchase. Now I am thinking - well, he paid a few thousand bucks for his tables and his crew and he is set up at the National, he should be a reputable dealer. He had a nice color catalog, and he seemed very friendly and knowledgeable.

I made the mistake of paying him with cash, rather than a credit card. He had promised that he would ship the cards on a certain date, but the cards didn't arrive. Every time I called, someone would answer the phone and tell me that the Billy wasn't in, or that he was busy. Finally, 3 weeks after the due date, a truck arrived at my house and we unloaded a pallet of cards. When I started going through the cards, I was shocked. 75% of the cards were heavily damaged. They looked like they had been run through a machine and the machine made several indentations in each card. Most of the cards were baseball cards from 1988 through 1993, even though I specifically asked about that and was told that there would be a few of those, but not very many.

After going through several boxes and finding the same types of damage in each box, I tried to contact Billy. He won't answer his phone, he won't respond to emails or Facebook messages, he won't answer questions at his contact page on his website. I tried many times over several months, but he will not respond. I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but he didn't respond to them either. He has 15 complaints, all with the same type of scam. I finally ended up putting 500,000 cards in my dumpster.

So, the National was great except for my experience with one dealer. You should stay away from Billy May and CardsOne. If I had paid with a credit card I could have had my money returned, so that is my fault. Be careful about who you buy from.

Rick

Rick,
Wow, what a jerk this guy sounds like. He knew the whole time he was going to be sending you junk-a pallet at that! I wonder if he'll dare show his face this year?

[RCMcKenzie]

That's starting to get repetitive, friend. Would you mind?

He's quoting the 1983 movie, Risky Business.

[buymycards]

Hi Andrew, he isn't on the dealer list at this time.

I wish I could remember the name of another dealer. This dealers tables were being run by a good looking woman with kind of a low cut blouse. Being the sexist pig that I am, I paid more than I should have for a T213-2 Bender. :)

Rick

[unamuzd1]

He's quoting the 1983 movie, Risky Business.
In what seems a family-friendly way, all things considered.

Speaking of 1983, I wasn't at the national that year. I did, however, attend the one in 1986. I guess I was 13 at the time, if my maths still work. I haven't been to one since, though I'm eyeing next year.

In terms of nightmares, mine's minor. The last thing I bought at the 1986 National, from a dealer near the door, was an unopened pack of 1976 Topps. I don't remember what I paid, but it wasn't too much, and I got a Brooks Robinson out of it. Which was awesome, because Robby was a favorite player (I grew up in Arkansas, so he's a hometown boy), but less awesome because it had a surface wrinkle. I just figured, these things happen sometimes.

Then a few days later I was looking at the wrapper and saw that it had a mail-in offer on it that expired in 1974.

Realizing that there were jerks who would sell a kid a re-sealed pack is probably one of the reasons I've never prioritized going back to the National.

[Buythatcard]

Good points, Adam.

However, all should be aware that hotel room safes may not be that safe:

http://digg.com/video/lock-pick-hotel-safes


Larry,

Thanks for sharing video. I will never use a Hotel safe again.

[Huck]

You've been to the National; it was a great time EXCEPT FOR:


We've all read about high dollar collectibles that mysteriously walk off at the National. What about other negative experiences?

The 'Legend' whose autograph you waited in line for who trns out to be a jerk.

The dealer who can't be bothered to look up, even you're asking about his '33 Goudey PSA 6 Ruth.

The hotel where the housekeeping crew accidentally threw away your newly acquired John McGraw autograph because they thought it was a piece of scrap paper.

LET'S HEAR the HORROR STORIES!

At the National in Baltimore a few year back, the big news going around the floor was that a dealer had one or two binders of 60's Kellogg's cards stolen.

[rdwyer]

My thought is that all high dollar items should be locked up in a display case. With the inventory most dealers have, it's a wonder how they know they got ripped off. I believe the thieves take advantage of that. WiFi security cameras help, but still don't stop thieves. (You may catch them on camera, buy it no one knows who it is you're outta luck) Might wanna consider paying someone to be your security while you're busy with other customers.

[RCMcKenzie]

Morrie,
The only year I've attended the National was 1985 at the Disneyland Hotel. I was there on vacation with my brother, sister and parents.

I've told the story on here before about my brother and I finding a 1975 Topps Brett in a bargain bin box for $3. My recollection is that he bought it. I reminded him of the story a few months ago and he said, "No, we just left it there."

[cardcountry]

I had a 52 mantle Psa 4 stolen at the Chicago national a few years back. It was the first one I ever owned.

Jeff

[ValKehl]

Dr. Frank, could the reason John Stockton never showed while you were waiting at McDonalds for 2 hours be that the National was never held in Salt Lake City? :D

[EldoEsq]

In what seems a family-friendly way, all things considered.

Speaking of 1983, I wasn't at the national that year. I did, however, attend the one in 1986. I guess I was 13 at the time, if my maths still work. I haven't been to one since, though I'm eyeing next year.

In terms of nightmares, mine's minor. The last thing I bought at the 1986 National, from a dealer near the door, was an unopened pack of 1976 Topps. I don't remember what I paid, but it wasn't too much, and I got a Brooks Robinson out of it. Which was awesome, because Robby was a favorite player (I grew up in Arkansas, so he's a hometown boy), but less awesome because it had a surface wrinkle. I just figured, these things happen sometimes.

Then a few days later I was looking at the wrapper and saw that it had a mail-in offer on it that expired in 1974.

Realizing that there were jerks who would sell a kid a re-sealed pack is probably one of the reasons I've never prioritized going back to the National.
Have you since learned that Topps used a lot of 1974 wrappers in 1976, and that pack was most likely legitimate?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

You just destroyed 30 years of perfectly good grudge carrying, and cutting off one's nose to spite one's face in one sentence. Kudos!

[4815162342]

Dr. Frank, could the reason John Stockton never showed while you were waiting at McDonalds for 2 hours be that the National was never held in Salt Lake City? :D


Val, I don't think Frank was saying that there was a National in SLC. My guess is that John Stockton was probably scheduled for a local promotion.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/f15e954c2b5907ba863e300203a0aec8.jpg

[unamuzd1]

Have you since learned that Topps used a lot of 1974 wrappers in 1976, and that pack was most likely legitimate?
Not unless I'm learning it right now. But given that you're framing it as a question, whether or not I've learned something is ambiguous. If that's true, then thanks. I now know something I didn't.

One of my take-aways was "Don't buy old wax", which generalized to "anything I'm not sure about". As such, while I've kept buying things that I'm comfortable I know about, and learning about things that interest me, I've not taken the time to educate myself on things that folks who specialize in the wax area may take for granted. There wasn't an easy way to learn it (if it's true) in '86, and the feeling that I'd been taken was such that I had no real motivation to go into that area of the hobby. It's a big enough hobby that there was still plenty to have fun with.

[Donscards]

I had a 52 mantle Psa 4 stolen at the Chicago national a few years back. It was the first one I ever owned.

Jeff

I remember hearing about that at the show----I believe it was in a stand up showcase===some guy just took it while you were busy with another customer 99 per cent are good guys, just that 1

[ValKehl]

Val, I don't think Frank was saying that there was a National in SLC. My guess is that John Stockton was probably scheduled for a local promotion.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/f15e954c2b5907ba863e300203a0aec8.jpg

Daryl, I also sensed that this is what Frank was saying, but inasmuch as this thread is supposed to be about the National, per the OP, I just couldn't resist taking a potshot at our dear Dr. Frank! I trust he won't hold this against me!

[frankbmd]

Daryl, I also sensed that this is what Frank was saying, but inasmuch as this thread is supposed to be about the National, per the OP, I just couldn't resist taking a potshot at our dear Dr. Frank! I trust he won't hold this against me!


Been taking pot shots for a long time Val.;)

I did have a nightmare at the National in Chicago though, which I attributed to a hard mattress and a soft pillow.:eek:

[bbcardzman]

They used sticker autos of Kirby Puckett and Oscar Taveras a year after they died.

They are still using Stan Musial's sticker autos and he died in 2013.

[Cooptown]

I heard a rumor, so not sure if it's 100% true, that there was a 500 HR Club baseball that was swiped last year in a backroom signing. Had all the guys from the original 500 HR show back in Atlantic City, and then all of the modern guys minus Manny. Was sitting on a table waiting for Manny to sign it when it was swiped.

Again, it was a rumor from the sportscollectors.net website, and I can't seem to find the original post now. But if true, the owner must feel absolutely sick to his stomach.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Not unless I'm learning it right now. But given that you're framing it as a question, whether or not I've learned something is ambiguous. If that's true, then thanks. I now know something I didn't.

One of my take-aways was "Don't buy old wax", which generalized to "anything I'm not sure about". As such, while I've kept buying things that I'm comfortable I know about, and learning about things that interest me, I've not taken the time to educate myself on things that folks who specialize in the wax area may take for granted. There wasn't an easy way to learn it (if it's true) in '86, and the feeling that I'd been taken was such that I had no real motivation to go into that area of the hobby. It's a big enough hobby that there was still plenty to have fun with.

Here is a recent discussion on the subject:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=221895

[Steve_NY]

I really hope that greater than "99% are good guys." Think of 1% of the attendees that don't fall in that statement; that would be 1% of let's say 30,000 attendees. That is 300 and it scares me. Ouch!

[forazzurri2axz]

I had a great time at the National in Chicago last year and I met many decent dealers with some great cards. I can't wait to go back to Chicago next year. I had one problem:

I stopped at a booth that was operated by CardsOne out of Tennessee. I talked to the owner, Billy May, and I decided to buy a pallet of 500,000 cards from him. We talked about the cards for quite some time. I asked him about the condition of the cards, the types of cards that would be included, etc., and he kept assuring me that I would be extremely happy with this purchase. Now I am thinking - well, he paid a few thousand bucks for his tables and his crew and he is set up at the National, he should be a reputable dealer. He had a nice color catalog, and he seemed very friendly and knowledgeable.

I made the mistake of paying him with cash, rather than a credit card. He had promised that he would ship the cards on a certain date, but the cards didn't arrive. Every time I called, someone would answer the phone and tell me that the Billy wasn't in, or that he was busy. Finally, 3 weeks after the due date, a truck arrived at my house and we unloaded a pallet of cards. When I started going through the cards, I was shocked. 75% of the cards were heavily damaged. They looked like they had been run through a machine and the machine made several indentations in each card. Most of the cards were baseball cards from 1988 through 1993, even though I specifically asked about that and was told that there would be a few of those, but not very many.

After going through several boxes and finding the same types of damage in each box, I tried to contact Billy. He won't answer his phone, he won't respond to emails or Facebook messages, he won't answer questions at his contact page on his website. I tried many times over several months, but he will not respond. I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but he didn't respond to them either. He has 15 complaints, all with the same type of scam. I finally ended up putting 500,000 cards in my dumpster.

So, the National was great except for my experience with one dealer. You should stay away from Billy May and CardsOne. If I had paid with a credit card I could have had my money returned, so that is my fault. Be careful about who you buy from.

Rick

You can get a tax writeoff and make kids happy at the same time--I gave 10,000 cards to a local hospital for the children

[unamuzd1]

Here is a recent discussion on the subject:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=221895

Thanks!