What makes a great show?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

As a fledgling promoter this is a very interesting and important topic to me.

Show attendees: What gets you through the door? Is it autograph guests; dealers you know; dealers with a national reputation; door prizes; free admission?

Dealers: what attracts you to a show? Location; an admission charge; low booth rates; autograph guests; good customer service?

I'd love to hear thoughts from both sides of the table as my answers may be different. Part of the reason we are doing our show is a reaction to numerous unsatisfying show experiences as a dealer. I can correct the things that bothered me, but I can't do anything about things I never thought of!

[Laxcat]

Something that I like: space.

Being able to easily maneuver through the aisles is a big plus.

[conor912]

I wish I had the time and energy to type the long-winded response that this question requires. At the end of the day, the majority of attendees want quality material at rock bottom prices, while dealers want to make enough of a profit to make setting up worth while. I can't say I blame either, but the difference between the two is what suppresses turnout on both sides of the tables. From what I've seen, it's getting harder for dealers to buy good stuff cheap enough to keep prices as low as buyers want. We live in a world where anyone who walks into a commercial setting can take out their phone and find "it" cheaper somewhere else.

That said, as a promotor of two shows/year myself, I'd also love to hear what input people have.

[conor912]

Something that I like: space.

Being able to easily maneuver through the aisles is a big plus.

I totally agree that space is nice, but if the material is good enough, I really don't see tight aisles being enough of a turnoff to keep people at home....

[pokerplyr80]

As a collector if there is good material I will come back. I like to see a good variety. Prewar, postwar, and modern. I'm not as concerned with door prizes or autograph guests but they will probably help attract other customers. I don't have a problem paying an admission as long as there's some good stuff inside.

[KCRfan1]

+1 Jesse.

I want quality and variety. With that comes a certain price tag, but as long as the prices are reasonable and "in line" I am good with that.

Don't necessarily need a player to do a signing. There's usually a price for that and it may carry over to an admission fee to attend the card show. Rather spend the money on cards.

[quitcrab]

Good lighting.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Good lighting.

makes complete sense, something I never thought of. Also something (once locked into a venue) that is possibly tough to control.

[buymycards]

1. location - I live in the boonies, so the nearest show is 60 miles away, and most of the shows that I attend are 70 to 180 miles away.

2. parking

3. space - I have gone to shows where it is impossible to get to the dealers tables. The aisles are about 4' wide and if a couple of customers are at the tables, the aisles and the tables are blocked. I have tried to get to a dealers table 6-8 times and I couldn't get close enough to see any cards.

4. The attitude of the dealers.

5. A variety of dealers. There is one local show that is mostly newer stuff, and another that seems to mainly have 50's and 60's cards.

6. Door prizes for the customers are nice, but they can be counter productive. The customers hand around for a long time hoping to get a prize, but they don't buy anything.

7. Free pizza or donuts for the dealers is nice.

8. As a customer, any time I can add a card to my personal collection, it is a good show. As a dealer, as long as I can sell enough to pay my expenses and maybe pick up a couple of cards for my PC, then I am happy. If I make a profit, then that is even better. I have set up at local shows where I didn't make enough money to cover a $35 table fee.

[Rich Klein]

I'll be adding to this as I think about this

Space is a double edged sword -- I like to provide space for the dealers and customers yet,, if the aisles or the tables appear crowded then there is a sense of urgency and people want to see what you have for sale. Back in the day when I worked for Beckett, there was at least one nice local dealer who knew me and would chat with me even when we had our restrictions on what we could buy

His reasoning was if I was in front of his table then there was a reason for that and he would usually sell a ton of stuff whilst I was there.

As a promoter, I like to have a big enough space where people have room but not bowling alley lanes on both sides

I agree with the "freebies" for the dealers and while I don't do that every show we do that at our synagogue show with bagels and cream cheese for the dealers and I bring or have bagels brought 3-4 times a year at the monthly show I do. Pizza can be trickier because you do have to ensure that if there happens to be a vegetarian among those you order either a cheese or a veggie pizza

I charge $1 admission and that is really for 2 reasons, one to let people feel they have some skin in the game and the 2nd is for a head count. However, we did last year and probably will this year -- do our December show as free admission as a thank you to our customers.

Our synagogue show is a bit different but our regular monthly show has either auto guests or an hourly door prize. There always needs to be something to bring in customers.

[SAllen2556]

I think it's really very simple: A card show with 50 tables is better than a card show with 30 tables. The more dealers you get, the better the show will be. I can put up with crowds, admission fees, rudeness, high prices, etc. But I'm not going to be happy if I drive 50 miles and it takes me 15 minutes to see all the stuff at the show.

[Rich Klein]

I think it depends what is on the tables. When I Have Roland from Louisiana or Jerry from Richardson or Matt from Austin or Leon from DFW, Roger from Oklahoma. With those five named dealers I can guarantee 20+ excellent tables pretty easily and have a good show for collectors. There are plenty of other good dealers as well who set up in the DFW area so I don't think one can always just say 30 tables is far worse than 50.

I do believe 100 plus tables pretty much guarantees a great show for collectors to find what they need

Rich

[Snapolit1]

Interesting. I don't care too much about autographs, so some free autos or a slate of guys on stage isn't a biggie for me. Having one of the major authenticators there to accept cards is pretty cool, but realize that can't be done everywhere.
Some refreshment stand is nice.
I don't like all the haggling that takes place, where cards bear more than one price, but I guess that will never change. "Book value" is always some random number that doesn't seem to have any connection to the condition of the card.
I'd say most friendly informed dealers. At White Plains I met some creep who mimicked me when I told him "Just looking . . .." Isn't that what everyone's doing? I probably spent more $ on cards in the last year than he has in his life and he treated me like some bum who stumbled in off the street.
Having people from the major auction houses showing some upcoming cool items is also nice.
How about a quiet area for spouses and friends who aren't interested to hang out in comfort for a few hours and read a book?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

OK keep it coming.

A lot of this stuff is things we've thought of, but there's a nice smattering of stuff we hadn't considered.

Dealers, haven't heard much from you guys yet!

[Jeff1970Red]

Attractive ladies, alcohol, great food...and great cards.

[Rich Klein]

OK putting on my dealer hat here

What I want to see from the promoter is an good effort in getting the word out

If they do the work than most of the rest fits into line.

And as a dealer, it's my job, especially if I sell something slightly outside the norm for a sports card show (Racing items, McFarlane/Starting Lineups, etc.) to get the word out to those collectors.

There have been many threads on many boards about what dealers should do at a show but as a promoter -- your job is to ensure the dealers have the best cards they can have for sale

Rich

[Rich Klein]

It's also my job as a dealer to get the word out as you want to protect yourself as well. I know several dealers at my show have their own email or postcard list they send to their collectors

Rich

[Chris Counts]

I don't believe bigger is always better when it comes to shows. Where I live, in the San Francisco Bay Area, there are big shows put on by Tristar at the Cow Palace, and small shows put on by Mark McRae in San Leandro. I always enjoy Mark's shows much more — it's not even close. The Cow Palace shows are filled with modern junk, and most of the vintage stuff is way overpriced. Yet I consistently walk out of Mark's shows with all sorts of great vintage treasures and bargains. Also, the atmosphere between the two is like night and day. The Cow Palace is impersonal and sterile, while the smaller and more intimate setting in San Leandro creates a warm and friendly environment. Mark's shows remind me of the wonderful Orange County monthly card shows in the 1970s, and they give me hope that there's still a place for shows in a world dominated by the internet.

[jhs5120]

Personally, I use shows as a "one stop shop" for my collecting need. My show routine is usually the same every time:
1. Consign a couple items that I don't want to carry around
2. Drop off an order with PSA (again, so I don't have to carry it around)
3. Look around the dealers and go bargain hunting
4. Look for dealers with cheap 1960's and 1970's Vg-Ex commons to complete sets

If you have all four of those components and are within 100 miles of New Jersey, I will be there!

[begsu1013]

.

[brian1961]

I think it depends what is on the tables.

I do believe 100 plus tables pretty much guarantees a great show for collectors to find what they need

Rich

If you can assure collectors there's going to be some "good stuff" on the tables--they will come. You must get the word out, however.

To get those good dealers with the "good stuff"---you'll need to assure them you're going to get the word out.

The good stuff costs. Any, and I mean ANY, unreasonable expectations that the dealer must offer his good stuff at rock bottom prices is downright stupid. I understand that prices for the good stuff have spiked to dizzying heights, in some instances. That's why we have VCP, eBay, and our own big mouth to say, "yes, I'll buy it" or "no thanks, that's just too high for me."

For most of the cherished stuff I still have in my collection, I paid at the high or set some record for that item. At the very least, I didn't haggle beyond the first question. However, since I speak from 25 - 30 years ago, that's another thing, monetarily. Regardless, the same modus operandi works the best today; to wit, if you want a good card, you had better prepare to pay a good price.

Otherwise, after a few years, you shan't have much to show for all your hunting, save for a few centered lesser condition graded cards.

Naturally, I have been speaking from the collector's point of view.

Is there anyone willing to share what they as a dealer of "good stuff" want from a show promoter, in order to load up their merchandise, travel to your show, set up, pay hotel and food bills, plus table fees of course, and be there for collectors to look and hopefully buy their wares?

---Brian Powell

[Yoda]

Try to ensure that you only allot tables to first class, major league dealers with solid reputations known throughout the hobby. There are many wannabes' out there who think it would be cool to play dealer for a weekend and bring in nothing but crap, a total waste of everybody's time. Also, if you could get the
grading companies to come and at least take submissions it would draw more attendees, I think. Good luck with your endeavors!

[Laxcat]

As a collector:

everything that has been said has been right on. I'll add that KNOWLEDGEABLE dealers make a heck of a difference as well. I prefer to talk to dealer/collectors. I understand the need, yes NEED, for the flippers and the sellers of sealed wax boxes that retail for more than a new car. They are there to help promote the FUTURE of the hobby. I might not get all the hype around it but it is what will fuel the younger generations of collectors, whether I get it or not.

I don't get to make it to that many shows that I don't set up at. If I can't find someone to talk sports/card history or it is overstuffed with Auto'd Jerseys and mass produced pennants, I make a round or two and bail.

I don't want to sound like a collecting snob. Far from it. I collect stuff from all sports and all years. Prewar lacrosse to modern Astros and everything in between.

As a dealer: I grew up in the show promoting business. You name it, I've seen it.

Discounts on multiple tables/booths
Arrange the room so that the autograph lines don't block dealer tables
Some sort of breakfast? Not needed but much appreciated (Thanks Rich)
Promote! Promote! Promote! Set up a mailing list at the entrance. This will be your best resource. Ask other dealers that will be attending your show if they could contact people on their lists as well. Many forums have event calendars. Facebook, Twitter and the likes will help as well.

Lighting is important. Check with the hotel/venue to see if YOU can make any improvements.

A little out there: IF it is a multi day show you might be able to get the hotel, if applicable, to swing a room gratis for a hospitality suite for the dealers to mingle after the show. I would believe the hotel would be more open to this if you could guarantee them X many rooms will be occupied during your show.

[Rich Klein]

It's not as easy you think with grading companies to get them to come.

I have open invites to various Dallas based companies to set up and I get them infrequently. And Usually, if I think it would be a draw to have them, we give them or reduced the tables rate so they can promote their appearance on their web sites and via their emails.

I'm sure each one has different variables as reasons to attend

As for getting the word out - I did mention that was the promoter's job along the way

As for "wannabe" dealers -- some of them may not have much cards but use their tables to buy -- I don't have a problem with letting people in to sell cards as you never know. I had a person call me earlier this year -- turned out he was an Iraq war vet and had a complete Desert Shield set (The 1991 Topps version) and a bunch of extra singles and he walked out with more than 2K.

But if you saw his display, you never would have thought he had that much good stuff. Sometimes, it's better to be surprised and as a promoter, one of my jobs is to ensure the tables get sold/filled.

Rich

[Jewish-collector]

Some collectors want only dealers with vintage, some collectors want only shiny stuff, etc,... Just get as many dealers as you can to satisfy everyone's interests.

A good many Autograph guests from a variety of sports. But, have the area organized and maybe somewhat away from the dealer tables. But, minimize all the over abundant of announcements that so and so is only appearing for another hour and now accepting tickets 1 to 50, etc,...

A good food area with reasonable prices and plenty of tables/chairs.

Long show hours on at least one day (ie Fri 3 pm - 8 pm)

Reasonable admission fees.

Free and plenty of parking.

A table of flyers with upcoming shows, auctions, etc,...

[Snapolit1]

At least one day with extended hours. Yes, great idea. Def. good for those where work is not cooperating.

[bravos4evr]

A dealer section that features a cross section of vintage and modern and all price points to maximize the buyer's options. An autograph guest or two that isn't ridiculously expensive. (Darryl Strawberry just signed nearby for $30, but I saw at another place 60 miles away it was $60, something tells me the dealer overcharged the 2nd signing)

But mostly, what others have said, the logistics stuff (parking, food, crowd flow) are handled and well thought out.

Man, really it all comes down to having good dealers and good stuff at a good venue that is well planned.

[CurtisFlood]

As a fledgling promoter this is a very interesting and important topic to me.

Show attendees: What gets you through the door? Is it autograph guests; dealers you know; dealers with a national reputation; door prizes; free admission?

Dealers: what attracts you to a show? Location; an admission charge; low booth rates; autograph guests; good customer service?

I'd love to hear thoughts from both sides of the table as my answers may be different. Part of the reason we are doing our show is a reaction to numerous unsatisfying show experiences as a dealer. I can correct the things that bothered me, but I can't do anything about things I never thought of!

As a dealer I like to see the show costs kept down for customers. Admissions are not something I like, neither are autograph guests, although they can attract some folks. Being a card guy, that doesn't help my bottom line. Many of the autograph seekers are not going to buy cards, but some do both.

Location as in table placement at shows can be important at Mall shows, not so much at big shows like Fanatics and the Nationals. People will find you there regardless of where you are.

I don't mind paying more for booth space at a good show, but some shows that squeeze as many tables into a tiny space just to max profits to subsidize autograph guest costs irritate me greatly. I won't name the show, but there is one that I set up at that you don't have room for backup at all. For that reason I am considering dropping that one from my schedule.

[skelly]

I think it is a mistake only looking for "serious" dealers. As long as the "weekend warrior" dealers are going to bring something interesting, even if it is just a bunch of seventies stuff... I say they should be welcome. As a collector that goes to the big shows, I've already met / seen all the dealers that do the Valley Forge Show & White Plains. Sometimes the "part time" dealers are much more interested in selling. Often other dealers are pleased as well, as they will buy wholesale from them at the end of the show.

[CurtisFlood]

I think it is a mistake only looking for "serious" dealers. As long as the "weekend warrior" dealers are going to bring something interesting, even if it is just a bunch of seventies stuff... I say they should be welcome. As a collector that goes to the big shows, I've already met / seen all the dealers that do the Valley Forge Show & White Plains. Sometimes the "part time" dealers are much more interested in selling. Often other dealers are pleased as well, as they will buy wholesale from them at the end of the show.

Surprisingly you can sometimes buy some good material from these motivated new table holders. In fact it can be cheaper to buy their stuff than to buy it from a walk in or somebody who has gotten their hands on a price guide and has no idea of the true value of the material. If you pay too much for your material you as a dealer will own it for a long time.

[K-Nole]

From a Buyer:

I want a variety of Vintage stuff (older than 1970).

I want sellers that are willing to sell!!! I HATE tables where the people have prices double what you can get on EBAY or Auction sites, that REFUSE to budge on the price. They are there as a Museum showcase and NOT to sell.
I understand they want to make money, but if you are going to have a booth at a sale, SELL!

[90feetaway]

How about a quiet area for spouses and friends who aren't interested to hang out in comfort for a few hours and read a book?

+1
Also, as an attendee, autograph guests are sometimes a draw. I'd like to meet an unusual guest such as announcer or ESPN personality once in a while.

[Butch7999]

As collectors only, and bottom-feeding cheapskates at that...
A show should be:

Well advertised, well in advance. We realize print advertising can be expensive, but it costs nothing to notify collector websites and forums.

Accessible by a reasonably short drive, with decent parking.

A pleasant temperature in the venue. Most shows we've been to have been 130 degrees inside with 50% carbon dioxide.

Free or nominal admission. Anything else is a pig in a poke.

Vendors with a wide variety of stuff -- including non-card sports memorabilia -- presumably make a show attractive to a wider variety
and thereby larger number of customers.
Outside your control, really, but three things regarding vendors:
1) a decent attitude -- don't ignore customers, don't act condescending, don't give a hard-sell.
2) if a vendor doesn't have prices marked, we usually won't even stop at his table to look or ask.
3) if a vendor has only ludicrously, unrealistically high prices marked, we won't even stop at his table to look or haggle.

Free autograph signings can draw us in, but we realize that the expense of getting former stars to appear makes free autos unrealistic
for small shows. If you offer free signings, make it clear in your advertising that they're free. Just stating that this guy or these guys
are signing leaves everyone to assume it'll be 50 or 100 bucks a sig. Also outside your control: a decent attitude on the part of anybody signing.

[buymycards]

As a dealer, I come to the shows to sell. I sometimes price my cards a little high because I have found out that if I price a card at $30, someone will offer $15. If I price that same card at $15, someone will offer $7. So, I mark it up a little so I can work with customers and accept their offers. I don't get offended by offers, because when someone makes an offer, it shows they are interested in the card and we now have a starting point for negotiations.

Also, in regard to dealers bringing junk to the shows - we have one local show that is a great junk show. When I buy collections, I bring all of the junk and blow it out at this show. People know that I will show up with tons of 1990's inserts, tons of 5 cent and 10 cent 1980's star cards, and loads of junk commons. I blow them out and accept low offers just so I don't have to haul the junk back home and I do very well with them because of the large quantities. There are other shows in the area where people don't seem to be interested in buying the junk, so I bring better cards to those shows.

I also would like to see the show promoters do their best to promote the show. Put the show in the Beckett show calendar, in SCD, Craigslist, local internet sites, and a small ad in the sports section of the local newspaper. Develop an email list of customers and dealers by have them sign up when they enter the show.

[brian1961]

As collectors only, and bottom-feeding cheapskates at that...
A show should be:

Well advertised, well in advance. We realize print advertising can be expensive, but it costs nothing to notify collector websites and forums.

Accessible by a reasonably short drive, with decent parking.

A pleasant temperature in the venue. Most shows we've been to have been 130 degrees inside with 50% carbon dioxide.

Free or nominal admission. Anything else is a pig in a poke.

Vendors with a wide variety of stuff -- including non-card sports memorabilia -- presumably make a show attractive to a wider variety
and thereby larger number of customers.
Outside your control, really, but three things regarding vendors:
1) a decent attitude -- don't ignore customers, don't act condescending, don't give a hard-sell.
2) if a vendor doesn't have prices marked, we usually won't even stop at his table to look or ask.
3) if a vendor has only ludicrously, unrealistically high prices marked, we won't even stop at his table to look or haggle.

Free autograph signings can draw us in, but we realize that the expense of getting former stars to appear makes free autos unrealistic
for small shows. If you offer free signings, make it clear in your advertising that they're free. Just stating that this guy or these guys
are signing leaves everyone to assume it'll be 50 or 100 bucks a sig. Also outside your control: a decent attitude on the part of anybody signing.

+3 ---Brian Powell

[brian1961]

How about a quiet area for spouses and friends who aren't interested to hang out in comfort for a few hours and read a book?[/QUOTE]

A VERY GOOD SUGGESTION. PERHAPS THE REFRESHMENT AREA COULD HAVE AN EXTENDED AREA FOR THE DISINTERESTED. ---Brian Powell

[RobertGT]

I'll keep my response short and to-the-point:

1) Fresh material at fair (ebay) prices.

So many of the shows I attend are populated by museum dealers with the same inventory I saw 3 years ago, with pricing that appears to be circa 1989, or at least twice the price of what the cards can be purchased for online.

Everybody uses eBay these days as the market price. Please don't pretend that doesn't apply to you.

[mark evans]

Lots of good suggestions. In addition, I think vintage dealers should attempt to bring some items that are not regularly available on eBay.

At the last Chantilly show, I was looking for a Berra rookie card. I found several but all were priced well in excess of eBay prices so I passed. I understand. Dealers have travel expenses, hotels, table fees, meals on the road, so they simply can't compete with internet sales.

On the other hand, I found a dealer selling 1956 Topps pins which appear on eBay but far less frequently. I bought the Berra pin and was happy to get it at retail.

[Huck]

1. Organization. Organization. Organization. A well run show is just a joy to attend. Collectors Showcase America when Marco Rol ran the show, was one of the best in the business.

2. A large enough venue for the type of show. There is a promoter who shall remain nameless who is notorious for bringing in large groups of autograph guests and the room is two sizes too small. Good lighting.

3. A PA system that works and can be heard throughout the venue. Sans a decent PA system, signage that shows who is signing where and what current
ticket numbers are being accepted.

4. Knowledgeable staff.

5. Separate cash and credit lines which are well staffed. More than two credit authorization machines.

6. I expect to pay admission (within reason). If admission is high, there should be a reason as to why I should attend (Koufax, Ryan, Brett, Harper, Trout, Stan Lee).

7. Show goers who bathe regularly. See #2. Out of the promoters control, but always pleasant especially in tight quarters.

8. For paid signings, solid autograph guests. Don't keep running the same stable of guests in and out, in and out. Free guests are always nice. Local talent is always a plus. Bringing some of the top minor leaguers in from the nearby teams would be kind of neat.

9. Door prizes are never frowned upon.

10. An area to sit and take a break. For most promoters this is called the parking lot.

11. Food and drink. Not huge, but nice. Instead of the usual kaka, have a local group serve up some grub.

12. Dealers: Promoters are in the business of selling tables and are likely not going to be too picky about what a dealer is bringing. I have seen jewelry, insurance, covered gutter services (with a working water display) dealers at card shows over the years. My preference is more memorabilia than card dealers and more vintage than new but variety is a good thing.

13. Dealers who price their cards fairly. I once asked a dealer why he had an 8 price on a slabbed 7 card. He replied "It would regrade as an 8." I was about to reply with "well than walk your arse over to the PSA booth and resubmit the card" but I just thanked him and walked away. I don't expect dealers to give cards away, a little wiggle room on full book is all that I expect.

[brightair]

Free or cheap parking or at very least an event discount for parking that is independent of "VIP" ticket prices.
A designated table, perhaps in the food court area, where people who want to swap cards can gather and talk.
Richard D

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Free or cheap parking or at very least an event discount for parking that is independent of "VIP" ticket prices.
A designated table, perhaps in the food court area, where people who want to swap cards can gather and talk.
Richard D

I had actually thought of this, but the danger is someone monopolizing it and basically getting a dealer table for free.

Guys there's lots of great stuff in this thread. Obviously it's impossible to implement it all but since I am approaching this from the perspective of a dealer who has been dissatisfied, I've been at least pretty good about trying to rectify the things that have bugged me. Clearly some of those things have bothered you as well.

I'd love for you to head over to the facebook page for the show and share these (and other) thoughts there where I can respond without fear of abusing the hospitality of this forum. The name of the page is absolutely literal and should be easy to find. Hopefully I can live up to at least a good chunk of the expectations, that both sides of the table have, for a great show!

[ValKehl]

Dean,
What I am sensing from item 1. of your post is that the Chantilly Show (CSA) is no longer a joy to attend because it has not been well run since Marco Rol's departure. I can only speak as a collector who has not missed a Chantilly Shoe (as best as I can remember) for many years. But, I have not sensed any significant change and/or decline in the Show post Marco. Actually, I feel there have been some improvements recently - e.g., a few more vintage dealers, a TPG accepting subs, and more auction houses present (REA, LOTG, Sterling, etc.). Why do you feel as you do - are you speaking from a dealer's perspective?
Val

[Rich Klein]

12. Dealers: Promoters are in the business of selling tables and are likely not going to be too picky about what a dealer is bringing. I have seen jewelry, insurance, covered gutter services (with a working water display) dealers at card shows over the years. My preference is more memorabilia than card dealers and more vintage than new but variety is a good thing.

I have had a couple of vendors tell me they would be bringing jewelry and I always advise this is the wrong crowd for that. But as noted, one of my jobs in promoting is to sell tables and if not full, then their wares are fine.

As a side note, my sister in law does sell jewelry on the side and if she wants a table, she is getting one, no questions asked :)

Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

12. Dealers: Promoters are in the business of selling tables and are likely not going to be too picky about what a dealer is bringing. I have seen jewelry, insurance, covered gutter services (with a working water display) dealers at card shows over the years. My preference is more memorabilia than card dealers and more vintage than new but variety is a good thing.

I have had a couple of vendors tell me they would be bringing jewelry and I always advise this is the wrong crowd for that. But as noted, one of my jobs in promoting is to sell tables and if not full, then their wares are fine.

As a side note, my sister in law does sell jewelry on the side and if she wants a table, she is getting one, no questions asked :)

Rich

While I can appreciate all that, that kind of thing is why I took this leap into promoting. I firmly believe that helping people, giving them what they want is the way to eventually succeed. Not necessarily grabbing every available dollar.

If I take the trouble as a consumer to go to a card show and there are things like gutter helmet dealers I'm not going to be happy. I will be less likely to attend the show in the future. I would probably feel similarly as a dealer if I was next to gutter-guy. So in the interest of picking up one short-term buck in table rent I may be throwing away more money in future.

This isn't Pollyanna-ish "I want to help people." It's good business. I get into this argument a lot with respect to lots of companies I have dealt with both in and out of the sports collectible arena.

If a company obviously values my time and the revenue I represent they are more likely to continue receiving it, and capture more and more of it. If a company merely views me as a dollar sign in the moment and is willing to do anything to get that dollar right now, that can leave a bad taste in my mouth.

It's why our booth rates are so low this first time out. It's why we have pledged to grandfather all dealers from this first show at the first time rate in perpetuity if they continue to do the show. I want to build relationships with my dealers and my show attendees, so that they look forward to doing business with me as opposed to it being a necessary evil!

[Jewish-collector]

I agree with Val. The Chantilly show hasn't changed much since Marco used to run it. It is a fantastic show !!!

Years ago, there was a dealer in New York State that used to have a show that dealers could only sell pre-1975 cards and/or memorabilia. I'm not sure how that show did, but that was a unique concept.

[Rich Klein]

[QUOTE=biohazard;1560036]1. 11. Food and drink. Not huge, but nice. Instead of the usual kaka, have a local group serve up some grub.

Not every place allows you to do so. Our local hotel which we use forbids us to have any food or drink for sale. it was one of the few requirements of the hotel for us to follow and an easy one at that.

Rich

[Tennis13]

Are there any anchor dealers, sort of like the shopping mall business model of the 1980s/1990s. You get 2 or 3 anchor tenants: Macys, JC Penney, Dillards, and then build around it?

Are there a handful of dealers that sort of cover modern, vintage and memorabilia that you can give free space to, and then they would attract better dealers around them and customers, because people would know the show is for real?

Again, I don't know anything, but I sort of see this and think that some sort of customer/dealer tiering should be out there, like an Uber rating of sorts, so people can sort of suss out the dealers and customers without having to re-start every show.

[jiw98]

Price stickers just clutter up the item that I want to look at. IMO So for cards not being priced, it's not a big deal to me. It's really simple to ask the price of an item. Now I have a starting point for negotiations, if we can't come to a deal then I just move on. I don't mind paying a little bit higher than ebay prices at a show. I have the item in hand and I know exactly what I am getting. No need to worry about shipping, lost in the mail, condition, returns, etc.

[Rich Klein]

Are there any anchor dealers, sort of like the shopping mall business model of the 1980s/1990s. You get 2 or 3 anchor tenants: Macys, JC Penney, Dillards, and then build around it?

Are there a handful of dealers that sort of cover modern, vintage and memorabilia that you can give free space to, and then they would attract better dealers around them and customers, because people would know the show is for real?

Again, I don't know anything, but I sort of see this and think that some sort of customer/dealer tiering should be out there, like an Uber rating of sorts, so people can sort of suss out the dealers and customers without having to re-start every show.

he's usually setting up at other shows on Saturdays but Roland Belcher of LA comes to my shows when his schedule permits and he checks off all the boxes your mention. Because of the size of the room I don't give "free space" but as Matt mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a discount for multiple tables or to assist dealers who, such as Roger Neufeldt does, send out post cards to their clients for this shows. That's how I roll, others may do things differently.

[Rich Klein]

Are there any anchor dealers, sort of like the shopping mall business model of the 1980s/1990s. You get 2 or 3 anchor tenants: Macys, JC Penney, Dillards, and then build around it?

Are there a handful of dealers that sort of cover modern, vintage and memorabilia that you can give free space to, and then they would attract better dealers around them and customers, because people would know the show is for real?

Again, I don't know anything, but I sort of see this and think that some sort of customer/dealer tiering should be out there, like an Uber rating of sorts, so people can sort of suss out the dealers and customers without having to re-start every show.

Back in the day, Alan Rosen would ask for and usually receive free tables and a great location as part of his deal to set up a show to buy. Because Alan ran so many ads and just featured his calendar, that became extra free advertising for many show promoters. Frankly, if Alan wants to fly down for my show, and I hope he's well enough to travel, I'd give him a table just to let people talk to him. Skipping the buying machine part, he's got a bunch of great stories to tell :)

[Rich Klein]

I agree with Val. The Chantilly show hasn't changed much since Marco used to run it. It is a fantastic show !!!

Years ago, there was a dealer in New York State that used to have a show that dealers could only sell pre-1975 cards and/or memorabilia. I'm not sure how that show did, but that was a unique concept.

Originally that was Ed Keetz, and IIRC -- you could kind of sell more modern cards BUT you could not display any post-1980 cards in your showcase or unopened or memorabilia.

Rich

[cool-vintage]

For me it's: Free admission, plenty of space, and the selection of cards (I like having more than one sport and also having modern and vintage.)

[Huck]

Dean,
What I am sensing from item 1. of your post is that the Chantilly Show (CSA) is no longer a joy to attend because it has not been well run since Marco Rol's departure. I can only speak as a collector who has not missed a Chantilly Shoe (as best as I can remember) for many years. But, I have not sensed any significant change and/or decline in the Show post Marco. Actually, I feel there have been some improvements recently - e.g., a few more vintage dealers, a TPG accepting subs, and more auction houses present (REA, LOTG, Sterling, etc.). Why do you feel as you do - are you speaking from a dealer's perspective?
Val

Val,

That was not my intention but I can see how one could glean that from my post. CSA is still the likely #1 promoter on the East coast, definitely #1 in the DMV. The new crew seems to lean far, far, far more toward football (which I don't collect) than baseball. Marco did a much better job of getting at least the current hof class in for a signing. I get the business model of football is king, but this coming show is the first in the last three shows with a decent baseball guest list. I am not asking for the world, I sent CSA an e-mail just asking to throw we baseball guys a bone with some meat on it every now and then. I am reasonable man. When I attend, the show is still enjoyable. The last show was the first show I have missed in over a decade! I also wish that CSA would adjust one show date that would allow current players and those who work for MLB as potential guests. The current March, July, October dates just doesn't work for those who work in baseball.

[Stetson_1883]

A good show?

Whatever this weekend's Dania show was NOT.

:)

[Mdmtx]

One of my pet peeves have always been the dealers packing up early. I understand there can be a few that have schedule conflict, but mass amounts bailing early is poor form in my opinion. Each dealer should have to get permission for early departure or risk not being sold a table next event. I believe it shows a huge lack of professionalism and it bothered me when I used to setup at shows because I felt it limited sales and it bothers me as a collector when I have made the commitment to be there during advertised hours, but it isn't what was advertised.

Mark

[Rich Klein]

Mark:

To be fair to those dealers packing up early, sometimes they have to drive long distances to get back home. I know Mike Mowrey from Arkansas likes to pack up a bit early as he has a 5 plus hour drive back to his home.

And if the show has been slow or there is a reason to get out of a show, then they do need to leave to get home. Always a case by case basis.

Gloria Rothstein was real good about ensuring dealers stayed to the very end (or almost the very end) unless you spoke to her beforehand. But even Gloria would let you leave early if a show did not live up to expectations. Gloria tried some other locations to expand her show and one show went so badly she walked around at 1 PM on Sunday and told the dealers they were free to leave.

Dallas is a truly strange market in that most of the shows continue PAST the scheduled closing time as the dealers do most of their business after the show than before the show. So I bet in Dallas, if you come in as a show is ending you will usually find some vendors still there.

Rich

[skelly]

I agree with Mark, at least here on the east coast, dealers packing up early is a huge issue. Basically most shows advertise as 9-3 and the place is wrapped up by 1:30-2:00. Collectors know the dealers will pack up early, so no one bothers to come after noon time. Kind of a vicious cycle. I guess the answer would be to just run the show from 9-12 and If the dealers want to stay a little later, that could be up to them.

[buymycards]

Hi Rich, you should look at the other side of this. Many customers also drive a long distance and it isn't fair to them to have half of the dealers gone when they arrive. A few years ago I went to a large show at the Rosemont in Chicago. I made the mistake of going on Sunday. When I arrived, it was around 10:30. By noon many of the dealers were gone and many more were packing up. An 8 hour round trip was wasted.

Also, for you dealers, bring some change. I can't believe how many dealers can't break a ten dollar bill. For you customers, you should also bring some ones, fives, and tens to save yourself some hassle.

Rick

[Mdmtx]

Rich,

I agree100% if someone has a conflict such as a long drive or previous commitment. But you never know when that one guy is going to walk in and plunk down big money. In my opinion if a show is advertised to go until X time, the majority should be there until X time. Nobody can know for certain what buyers are coming. You may be able to make an educated guess, but nobody can truly know.

On another note I think it helps in the professionalism if the dealer stands (if possible) and greets the customers. These purchases are all of a 1st world issue and the people that pose as though selling life saving commodities and act gruff and distant turn me off in a big way. Nothing better than a smile, a little bargaining, a couple jokes or anecdotes and a deal followed by a hand shake. This is a fun HOBBY and some seem to forget that. At Rich's shows all the people seem very cordial. Always great to see Roger Neufeldt and the like. I've never seen Rodger in a foul mood and I've known him for 30 years or so now. My comments are in now way a commentary on rich's show. I try to go each month. Actually met Leon face to face last month. Rich does a great job of creating a positive environment.

Mark

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

one of my pet peeves have always been the dealers packing up early. I understand there can be a few that have schedule conflict, but mass amounts bailing early is poor form in my opinion. Each dealer should have to get permission for early departure or risk not being sold a table next event. I believe it shows a huge lack of professionalism and it bothered me when i used to setup at shows because i felt it limited sales and it bothers me as a collector when i have made the commitment to be there during advertised hours, but it isn't what was advertised.

Mark

amen

[Rich Klein]

Rich,

I agree100% if someone has a conflict such as a long drive or previous commitment. But you never know when that one guy is going to walk in and plunk down big money. In my opinion if a show is advertised to go until X time, the majority should be there until X time. Nobody can know for certain what buyers are coming. You may be able to make an educated guess, but nobody can truly know.

On another note I think it helps in the professionalism if the dealer stands (if possible) and greets the customers. These purchases are all of a 1st world issue and the people that pose as though selling life saving commodities and act gruff and distant turn me off in a big way. Nothing better than a smile, a little bargaining, a couple jokes or anecdotes and a deal followed by a hand shake. This is a fun HOBBY and some seem to forget that. At Rich's shows all the people seem very cordial. Always great to see Roger Neufeldt and the like. I've never seen Rodger in a foul mood and I've known him for 30 years or so now. My comments are in now way a commentary on rich's show. I try to go each month. Actually met Leon face to face last month. Rich does a great job of creating a positive environment.

Mark

+1

[Rich Klein]

Hi Rich, you should look at the other side of this. Many customers also drive a long distance and it isn't fair to them to have half of the dealers gone when they arrive. A few years ago I went to a large show at the Rosemont in Chicago. I made the mistake of going on Sunday. When I arrived, it was around 10:30. By noon many of the dealers were gone and many more were packing up. An 8 hour round trip was wasted.

Also, for you dealers, bring some change. I can't believe how many dealers can't break a ten dollar bill. For you customers, you should also bring some ones, fives, and tens to save yourself some hassle.

Rick

Rick:

I get it as a customer, you want the show to be full when the customers arrive. I was just giving some reasons why some dealers may leave early. So far, we've been lucky at my shows that most dealers have stayed till the end or nearly the end. But I'm never going to refuse someone their right to leave if they paid for their tables, as the saying goes -- it's their money -- and their right. As for me as a promoter -- I stay till closing.

[ValKehl]

Val,

That was not my intention but I can see how one could glean that from my post. CSA is still the likely #1 promoter on the East coast, definitely #1 in the DMV. The new crew seems to lean far, far, far more toward football (which I don't collect) than baseball. Marco did a much better job of getting at least the current hof class in for a signing. I get the business model of football is king, but this coming show is the first in the last three shows with a decent baseball guest list. I am not asking for the world, I sent CSA an e-mail just asking to throw we baseball guys a bone with some meat on it every now and then. I am reasonable man. When I attend, the show is still enjoyable. The last show was the first show I have missed in over a decade! I also wish that CSA would adjust one show date that would allow current players and those who work for MLB as potential guests. The current March, July, October dates just doesn't work for those who work in baseball.

Dean, thanks for your explanation. My collecting focus is pre-War baseball, and I have no interest in autographs, hence I pay no attention to the guest list. And, I always attend on Friday when, as you know, there are no signings taking place. You make a good point re scheduling one show each year outside the baseball season to enable current players, coaches, etc. to be guest signers.
Val

[basesareempty]

Val,

That was not my intention but I can see how one could glean that from my post. CSA is still the likely #1 promoter on the East coast, definitely #1 in the DMV. The new crew seems to lean far, far, far more toward football (which I don't collect) than baseball. Marco did a much better job of getting at least the current hof class in for a signing. I get the business model of football is king, but this coming show is the first in the last three shows with a decent baseball guest list. I am not asking for the world, I sent CSA an e-mail just asking to throw we baseball guys a bone with some meat on it every now and then. I am reasonable man. When I attend, the show is still enjoyable. The last show was the first show I have missed in over a decade! I also wish that CSA would adjust one show date that would allow current players and those who work for MLB as potential guests. The current March, July, October dates just doesn't work for those who work in baseball.

I was told that CSA made Ken Griffey Jr a sizeable 6 figure offer to come to the show next week and he turned them down.

[Rich Klein]

I can tell you stories about what players want to appear and many of them make no economic sense for the promoter

Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I can tell you stories about what players want to appear and many of them make no economic sense for the promoter

Rich

LOL this is SO true. looks like we're going to sew up a 7x All-star and career .300 hitter with a LONG illustrious career for about half what a 2x All-star who had an 8 year career and was out of the league by 31 years old wanted. The numbers are all over the map.

[bravos4evr]

LOL this is SO true. looks like we're going to sew up a 7x All-star and career .300 hitter with a LONG illustrious career for about half what a 2x All-star who had an 8 year career and was out of the league by 31 years old wanted. The numbers are all over the map.

hmmm, based off those 2 sets of numbers I think I know who it is!

I'll never tell tho! :p

[bravos4evr]

btw, not to stray off topic too much, but are there any big shows on the gulf coast anywhere? (or within 3 hours or so?)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

hmmm, based off those 2 sets of numbers I think I know who it is!

I'll never tell tho! :p

Just for fun you (and only you) will win a free autograph of the one we are getting if you're right. Send your answer via PM if you're wrong I'll share. If you're right I'll share after we sign the guest on the dotted line!

[bravos4evr]

Just for fun you (and only you) will win a free autograph of the one we are getting if you're right. Send your answer via PM if you're wrong I'll share. If you're right I'll share after we sign the guest on the dotted line!

PM sent! (and fingers crossed!)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

He tried Michael Young:

Survey Says

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M3f2dbee859db53c70a97b2da9442fe6bo0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

[bravos4evr]

well, in my defense, Young is a 7 time all star with a career .300 avg so.... it wasn't a bad guess

[Huck]

Dean, thanks for your explanation. My collecting focus is pre-War baseball, and I have no interest in autographs, hence I pay no attention to the guest list. And, I always attend on Friday when, as you know, there are no signings taking place. You make a good point re scheduling one show each year outside the baseball season to enable current players, coaches, etc. to be guest signers.
Val

Val,

When the card companies went completely bonkers during the late 80's and 90's my focus shifted to the autograph/memorabilia side of the hobby. Now, that autograph prices are starting to get ridiculous, my focus has shifted to vintage cards. I don't know if the crowds of people would show up if CSA was just a card show.

[Huck]

I was told that CSA made Ken Griffey Jr a sizeable 6 figure offer to come to the show next week and he turned them down.

Perhaps, Griffey invested his money well and doesn't need/like to do shows. On one side I am glad to hear that another athlete who made millions is not broke. On the other hand, I wish he would make at least one pass around the autograph circuit.

[Huck]

I can tell you stories about what players want to appear and many of them make no economic sense for the promoter

Rich

Do you think that Sandy Koufax will ever do another public signing? What is the story with Bobby Cox? After induction, he did a show or two and then *poof* he disappeared.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Val,

When the card companies went completely bonkers during the late 80's and 90's my focus shifted to the autograph/memorabilia side of the hobby. Now, that autograph prices are starting to get ridiculous, my focus has shifted to vintage cards. I don't know if the crowds of people would show up if CSA was just a card show.

This sentiment always bugged me. Like the card companies were printing cards that nobody wanted in order to depress the market later. The boom hit, everyone though that cards were an investment for the future. Put away a case for $100 and in 30 years voila you're rich. Think about what that meant in 1986. They were looking at a 1956 Case (Or Box, or pack, or even card) and thinking: "wow If I buy now in thirty years that could be me." So EVERYONE did it. Even complete non-card people bought cases and squirreled them away. the Card companies didn't go crazy they met the crazy demand, and what red blooded American company that has very little stake in the after market wouldn't do the same???

[NC-Vintage]

Great customer service, A happy customer and or dealer is likely to be the best most cost effective way of advertising.

Giving value for the admission charge.

Quality and variety from your dealers is very important, as is having them
stay set up for the full show hours ( however,this is not always easy)

CSA is unique in the fact that it has massive draw from autograph collectors ( or fan's) but also has a strong base of
vintage card collectors attending the show. Many shows simply fall into one or the other category. With that being said, these are some of the things
we offer to our customers.
Free autographs,cash giveaways,quality door prizes,free gifts etc. These seem to be appreciated by our
customers and dealers. At least that has been my experience thus far. For example we gave away
over $1300 in CSA dealer dollars to our customers for the April Chantilly show, the customers
were very happy as were the dealers when they cashed them in. Also For the last 2 shows we have offered
free unique photo opportunities, in April REA had an incredible amount of items on display and allowed customers
to take free photo's with them,including the T206 Honus Wagner. For July we have Memory Lane allowing
customers to hold and take a photo with a Babe Ruth Game Used Bat.

Free admission time slots, we just introduced free time slots every day of our show,
Friday , Saturday and Sunday has the last 2 hours of the show as free admission, we
are hoping this translates into customers coming in later in the day and encourages dealers
to stay until the end of the show.

Giving value back to the dealers. We allow dealers to configure there space however they would like so they can maximize there set-up.
We also have a lot of space behind as well as in the aisles. We put on a full free buffet breakfast every Sunday of the show for our dealers.
We also give away 1 free table for the next show randomly to one of our dealers.

Promotion,promotion,promotion. It's the promoters job #1 but also the dealers job to promote the show, the more the show is spoken and talked about the
better the chance for success.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think a speaker to address something interesting about the hobby and go over tid bits...for example talking about the 1933 goudey set or any other set with question and answer

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So Joe you won't mind if I promote my show this weekend at Chantilly??? :)

[Huck]

This sentiment always bugged me. Like the card companies were printing cards that nobody wanted in order to depress the market later. The boom hit, everyone though that cards were an investment for the future. Put away a case for $100 and in 30 years voila you're rich. Think about what that meant in 1986. They were looking at a 1956 Case (Or Box, or pack, or even card) and thinking: "wow If I buy now in thirty years that could be me." So EVERYONE did it. Even complete non-card people bought cases and squirreled them away. the Card companies didn't go crazy they met the crazy demand, and what red blooded American company that has very little stake in the after market wouldn't do the same???

The bonkers statement stems from the fact that each company was putting out 3-5 sets of cards. I could not collect them all and grew tired. Yes, the demand was there and I don't begrudge the card companies for trying to make a buck. As a collector who was used to putting one Topps set together, the sheer amount of material out there was overwhelming. I stopped purchasing cards and started diving into autographs and memorabilia.

No, the card companies don't have a stake in the after market but they probably should have thought about what happens when the bubble bursts. How many card companies from the 90's are left? Last I checked, Topps has an MLB exclusive. Greed for lack of a better word, is not always good.

[NC-Vintage]

I encourage you to do so. We have a table out in the front you can put fliers onto also.

[Rich Klein]

Upper Deck is left as well from the early 1990's. And on this one, don't blame the card companies, they were producing to meet demand (and then some). But their job is to make a profit, not to look 20 years down the road.

[bravos4evr]

Upper Deck is left as well from the early 1990's. And on this one, don't blame the card companies, they were producing to meet demand (and then some). But their job is to make a profit, not to look 20 years down the road.

wrong thread?

[Rich Klein]

Right thread -- someone posted about the 1990's and I did respond to that comment.

Rich

[Leon]

Great response and sounds like a great show coming up too!!

Great customer service, A happy customer and or dealer is likely to be the best most cost effective way of advertising.

Giving value for the admission charge.

Quality and variety from your dealers is very important, as is having them
stay set up for the full show hours ( however,this is not always easy)

CSA is unique in the fact that it has massive draw from autograph collectors ( or fan's) but also has a strong base of
vintage card collectors attending the show. Many shows simply fall into one or the other category. With that being said, these are some of the things
we offer to our customers.
Free autographs,cash giveaways,quality door prizes,free gifts etc. These seem to be appreciated by our
customers and dealers. At least that has been my experience thus far. For example we gave away
over $1300 in CSA dealer dollars to our customers for the April Chantilly show, the customers
were very happy as were the dealers when they cashed them in. Also For the last 2 shows we have offered
free unique photo opportunities, in April REA had an incredible amount of items on display and allowed customers
to take free photo's with them,including the T206 Honus Wagner. For July we have Memory Lane allowing
customers to hold and take a photo with a Babe Ruth Game Used Bat.

Free admission time slots, we just introduced free time slots every day of our show,
Friday , Saturday and Sunday has the last 2 hours of the show as free admission, we
are hoping this translates into customers coming in later in the day and encourages dealers
to stay until the end of the show.

Giving value back to the dealers. We allow dealers to configure there space however they would like so they can maximize there set-up.
We also have a lot of space behind as well as in the aisles. We put on a full free buffet breakfast every Sunday of the show for our dealers.
We also give away 1 free table for the next show randomly to one of our dealers.

Promotion,promotion,promotion. It's the promoters job #1 but also the dealers job to promote the show, the more the show is spoken and talked about the
better the chance for success.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

For those of you wondering about the self-derail a couple pages ago the answer (and our last autograph guest) is Al Oliver.