Who would you want on the mound T206 era in clutch game?

[CMIZ5290]

Mathewson, Johnson, Cy Young, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Addie Joss, or Jack Cesbro? Please feel free to submit another choice....This is for a game that has to be won....

[Bigb13]

I would go with Cy Young

[Peter_Spaeth]

Johnson. No question.

[CMIZ5290]

My answer a couple of years ago would have been Matty. But after a lot of research, W. Johnson without a doubt....

[goudey1933]

Matty...

[Sean]

Walter Johnson.

Second choice: Mordecai Brown.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My answer a couple of years ago would have been Matty. But after a lot of research, W. Johnson without a doubt....

I can't find it but I saw a fascinating analysis of what their numbers would have looked like had Johnson been on the Giant teams and Matty on the Senators. By that analysis Johnson was much much better.

[CMIZ5290]

I can't find it but I saw a fascinating analysis of what their numbers would have looked like had Johnson been on the Giant teams and Matty on the Senators. By that analysis Johnson was much much better.

Peter- I would love to see that. Most all of the old time experts that I have spoke with has said he was the greatest of all time....

[pherbener]

My heart says Matty but my head says WaJo. I'm also gonna give a shout out to Smokey Joe Wood.

[rats60]

For one game, Big Six. For a season or career, Big Train.

[ullmandds]

gotta go with the heat! WAJO!

[CrackaJackKid]

Wajo!!!

[dealme]

I'll take Matty

[FourStrikes]

Sidd Finch - 'cuz NOBODY woulda touched his 168 MPH pitch.

.

[T206Collector]

Matty

1905 WS

No question

[T206Jim]

Take it from a HOF manager of the period. "I just used Albert - the greatest money pitcher of all time, I'd tell Albert when I planned to use him in a crucial series, then I relaxed, he never let me down." said Connie Mack of Charles Albert Bender.

[CMIZ5290]

Take it from a HOF manager of the period. "I just used Albert - the greatest money pitcher of all time, I'd tell Albert when I planned to use him in a crucial series, then I relaxed, he never let me down." said Connie Mack of Charles Albert Bender.

Jim, great pitcher, but I know you're kidding....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter- I would love to see that. Most all of the old time experts that I have spoke with has said he was the greatest of all time....

They did something like give Matty Johnson's run support and vice versa and Matty ended up with 50 or 75 fewer wins and Johnson that many more, close to 500.

[GregMitch34]

Matty in brown cap, but if in white cap then Johnson.

[irishdenny]

BiG SiX & BiG Ed,
Wit Both of'em iN Their Prime...

oN the DaY of the BiG Game,
I'd FLiP a CoiN...

Johnston MiGHT of BeeN a Bettar Regular Season Pitcher...
Howevar, The "BiG's" Play'd & Show'd More Dominance iN the Spot LiGHT!!!
Both Gentleman Had ERA's South of One...

You Can Choose the CoIN ;)

[Kenny Cole]

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, great pitcher, but I know you're kidding....

No, he isn't, Mack did say that.

[T206Jim]

Kevin, for the scenario you described check out the 1905, and 1910-1912 World Series. You'd be hard pressed to do better than either Matty or the Chief during that era.

[CMIZ5290]

No, I know Mack loved Bender and said that. I wonder if he would have bypassed Bender for Walter Johnson. He was a great baseball man, and my hunch says yes....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

You need to win one game, and you tap Orval Overall and not Walter Johnson? Uh, ok. You cannot possibly have a big enough sample to make that judgment about Overall, IMO.

[Kenny Cole]

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

[CMIZ5290]

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

Babe Adams? Overall? I know you're kidding Kenny....Overall 108-71 career record

[Peter_Spaeth]

Babe Adams? Overall? I know you're kidding Kenny....

Cole has no sense of humor, just a sense of being a great contrarian. :D

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

[Kenny Cole]

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

See Clayton Kershaw. Great pitcher? Yes. Great post season pitcher? Not in my book. He seems to routinely get his ass torn off.

[CMIZ5290]

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

Yep, have to agree....

[BBB]

3 fingers brown and matty were the win leaders out of that group in 1909 FWIW

Johnson went to the next level in 1910. Some of the others were already tailing out their career by the time T206 hit the shelves.


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[Cat]

It would be interesting to know what folks in 1911 or 1912 would have said.

In 1910 Jack Coombs lead the majors with 31 wins and went 3-0 in the World Series win for the Philly A's. He beat Mordecai Brown twice in the WS.

In 1911 he again lead the majors in wins (tied with Alexander with 28) and went 1-0 in their WS win, beating Christy Mathewson.

[the 'stache]

Walter Johnson, not a doubt in my mind. Second, Christy Mathewson.

Both were fantastic pitchers. You'll get no argument from me that both could dominate, and if I couldn't have The Big Train pitch that game, I'd feel completely comfortable putting Matty on the mound.

Just to throw this out there for discussion purposes:

Christy Mathewson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1908, 11.1
1903, 9.9
1909, 9.2
1905, 9.1
1901, 9.1
1907, 7.6

Walter Johnson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1913, 14.6
1912, 13.5
1914, 11.9
1910, 11.2
1915, 11.2
1919, 10.5
1918, 10.2
1916, 9.7

[Peter_Spaeth]

See Clayton Kershaw. Great pitcher? Yes. Great post season pitcher? Not in my book. He seems to routinely get his ass torn off.

Yep, one highly unusual example.

[rats60]

Yep, one highly unusual example.

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

[darwinbulldog]

Johnson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

Name one other pitcher with anywhere close to a Kershaw-like disparity between regular and post season. I certainly did not mean to suggest he was a unique example merely by virtue of being "worse" post-season.

[sebie43]

George Mullin. Just kidding, But for one single game. Ed Walsh, spit everywhere

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[glynparson]

The big train

[Bpm0014]

Big Ed Walsh

[Baseball Rarities]

Definitely Johnson with Mathewson and Alexander a fairly distant second and third.

[drmondobueno]

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

Greg Maddox is another post season example of underperformer.

As for HOF votes, maybe playing in New York nuanced the vote?

[Yoda]

Perhaps a vote for 'Ole Pete', G. C. Alexander. He certainly had one famous performance (reputedly with the world's worst hangover) against the Yankees and their famous Murderers' Row.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

They were all great but I would go with Johnson, he won with some poor teams. Most of the others performed with some great lineups behind them each year.

Alexander is another solid choice. I love Matty too. If you ever have the chance to see Eddie Frierson perform his one man show on Matty please do so! It is outstanding.

[Hankphenom]

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

Johnson's world series games, in his 18th and 19th seasons:
1924, game 1: Loses 4-3 in 12 innings, 165 pitches, only runs in regulation are two home runs into temporary bleachers in left field, otherwise a shutout win.
1924, game 5: Loses 6-2, 13 hits, behind 3-2 into last inning.
1924, game 7: With one day's rest, comes in to a 3-3 tie in the 9th, holds the powerful Giants (8 HOF hitters) scoreless for four innings, possibly the great "clutch" pitching performance of all time.
1925, game 1: 4-1 win, 5 hits over Pirates team with .316 season BA.
1925, game 4: 4-0 win, 6 hit shutout.
1925, game 7: Loses 9-7, 15 hits, 5 Pirate runs in last two innings of famous "rain game," possibly the worst conditions any major league game has ever been played in.
A mixed bag, as has been said, but not even close to showing that he wasn't a "clutch" pitcher. What would he have done in the world series in his dominant decade of 1910-1919?

[Wite3]

I would probably take Johnson if the game is on the line...a close second and third would be Grove and Alexander.

[brian1961]

Big Ed Walsh.

[irishdenny]

Walter Johnson, not a doubt in my mind. Second, Christy Mathewson.

Both were fantastic pitchers. You'll get no argument from me that both could dominate, and if I couldn't have The Big Train pitch that game, I'd feel completely comfortable putting Matty on the mound.

Just to throw this out there for discussion purposes:

Christy Mathewson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1908, 11.1
1903, 9.9
1909, 9.2
1905, 9.1
1901, 9.1
1907, 7.6

Walter Johnson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1913, 14.6
1912, 13.5
1914, 11.9
1910, 11.2
1915, 11.2
1919, 10.5
1918, 10.2
1916, 9.7

Hey There Billy! :)

I've Always Lov'd Your Outlook...
Your Due Diligence is tuf ta Ignore!

As I mention'd earlier...
Mr. Johnston's Regular Season Performance's were Impeccable!
Howevar, Even Though His Post Season Efforts were Later in his Career,
They "Were WHaT THeY Were!"
And His Season WAR was As Grand As EVaR!!!

WaJo Kinda Reminds me Somewhat of Peyton Manning...
They BoTH were Regular Season Menace's! Post Season Howevar? ~
And as Mention'd by Another Board Member,
Mr. Johnston GiveN uP "2 Bleacher Seat" Home Runs in a Post Season Game,
Shouldn't be Just Written off Because of the Need ta Add Seats!

At the Moment I'm Curious ta What Was Mr. Johnston's Post Season WAR was?
I do Know His ERA was like 2.2x

Ohh, I'm Sure You Notic'd my Long WithstandiN Avatar...
Matty & Wajo (Along wit BiG Ed Walsh!),
Have Always Been My Favorite's!!!

These Awesome Discussion's Are What Our Board were Meant Fir!!!
Don't You Agree Sir!?

Ps... I Also Share Your PassioN fir Film!
Ingrid Bergman's "Gaslight" & "Joan of Ark",
Have BeeN Favorite's of Mine Since I was a wee spit :)

I'm Also Curious to Your Thoughts oN weather or Not Mr. Braun will Stay iN Milwaukee!?

[irishdenny]

"My Apologies fir the Double Post Folks"

[rats60]

Name one other pitcher with anywhere close to a Kershaw-like disparity between regular and post season. I certainly did not mean to suggest he was a unique example merely by virtue of being "worse" post-season.

You should expect a pitcher to be "worse" in the postseason than the regular season. He is pitching every game against good teams instead of a mixture of good and bad teams.

Kershaw may be the worst, but Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson all were worse in the postseason than regular season, just to pick a few. When picking for one game, I want the guy who has done it, Matty, over the one we don't know, Wajo. Johnson may have been great if given the opportunity to pitch World Series in his prime, but Matty was great in the World Series. Some players choke under pressure, such as Kershaw, others perform better. Matty was one who pitched better in the spotlight.

[pitchernut]

Addie Joss

[Mark17]

Walter, and all I need is one run.

After that Alexander, Walsh, and Bender.

Matty was a great pitcher, but he also lost some big games, and Waddell was too erratic. I'd consider Brown over either of them, actually.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mathewson's post season record was 5-5, just for context. He was 2-5 after his incomparable '05 series.

[Mark17]

Mathewson's post season record was 5-5, just for context. He was 2-5 after his incomparable '05 series.

He had a great World Series ERA of under 1, but he did lose the 1908 "playoff" game to Brown, and the final game of the 1912 Series, so when I think of a guy to win a big game, he's not at the top of my list, despite his obvious greatness and general dependability.

[rats60]

Mathewson's post season record was 5-5, just for context. He was 2-5 after his incomparable '05 series.

He gave up less than one run per nine innings. Is it his fault that he didn't get support at the bat or in the field? He was 1-5 in games that he didn't shut out the opponent.
In 1912, he pitched 3 complete games, giving up 3 earned runs in 28.2 innings, but went 0-2 because his defense allowed 8 unearned runs. In the deciding game, Matty had the Giants in position to win, but a dropped fly and dropped pop up, cost the Giants the game. Over his career, his defense gave up as many unearned runs, 11 as Matty gave up earned ones.

[the 'stache]

Hey, you just pretty much described Walter Johnson's career. ;)

He gave up less than one run per nine innings. Is it his fault that he didn't get support at the bat or in the field?

[Mark17]

In the deciding game, Matty had the Giants in position to win, but a dropped fly and dropped pop up, cost the Giants the game. Over his career, his defense gave up as many unearned runs, 11 as Matty gave up earned ones.

Matty had a 1-run lead going into the bottom of the 10th inning of the final game. With one out, all he has to do is take charge and either catch Speaker's pop foul himself, or do the logical thing and call for Merkle to take it. Instead he called for Meyers (possibly the slowest-footed player in baseball) and Chief couldn't quite get to it. For Merkle or Matty it would've been an easy out. Speaker then supposedly calls out to Matty something like: "You just called for the wrong man and now it's going to cost you this ballgame," before singling in the tying run and advancing the eventual winning run to third.

That and the famous matchup with Brown at the end of the 1908 season were two huge do-or-die games Matty lost.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Ed Cicote because at least if lose the game we will make money

[Sean]

Matty had a 1-run lead going into the bottom of the 10th inning of the final game. With one out, all he has to do is take charge and either catch Speaker's pop foul himself, or do the logical thing and call for Merkle to take it. Instead he called for Meyers (possibly the slowest-footed player in baseball) and Chief couldn't quite get to it. For Merkle or Matty it would've been an easy out. Speaker then supposedly calls out to Matty something like: "You just called for the wrong man and now it's going to cost you this ballgame," before singling in the tying run and advancing the eventual winning run to third.

That and the famous matchup with Brown at the end of the 1908 season were two huge do-or-die games Matty lost.

Matty's biggest mistake in that game came on the previous hitter. He walked the light-hitting Steve Yerkes, putting the winning run on base, and bringing up Speaker (who hit .383 that year).

[Mark17]

Matty's biggest mistake in that game came on the previous hitter. He walked the light-hitting Steve Yerkes, putting the winning run on base, and bringing up Speaker (who hit .383 that year).

Excellent point! Matty and his great control missed with 4 pitches to walk the guy ahead of Speaker, who turned out to be the winning run.

From 1905 through 1916, which blankets the T206 era, there were 4 do-or-die games where the Giants needed to win to survive. Matty lost 3 of them - the final games that lost the 1912 and 1913 World Series, and the final game that lost the 1908 pennant.

Ames lost the last game of the 1911 Series, Game 6, after Matty won Game 1 and lost Games 3 and 4...

[7nohitter]

It would be Rube Marquard, no doubt.

[ValKehl]

Walter Johnson, of course! BTW, 4 of the runs off WaJo in game 7 of the 1925 W.S. were unearned, due to errors resulting from the sloppy condition of the field.
Val

[nat]

Post season records, for the most part, don't tell you very much. There just aren't enough games to be able to sort the signal from the noise. There's a lot of luck in baseball, and it takes lots of games to be able to figure out what is the effect of luck and what is really under the player's control. If you want to take them into consideration, combine them with regular season performance.

Raw WAR numbers don't help here, since they could reflect differences in the number of innings pitched (and we're only interested in one game). But something like WAR/games started might be helpful.

WaJo has 0.23 WAR per start.
Matty has 0.17 WAR per start.

I'll take Johnson.

Matty was great and all, but he tends to be over rated. He wasn't as good of a pitcher as Pete Alexander: they had identical ERA+s, Pete pitched 400 more innings, and has a significant lead in WAR. And both Matty and Alexander are a big step behind WaJo.

[VintageJay]

Smoky Joe Wood in 1912, but any other year I would say Mr. Johnson.

Oh to be at Fenway on Sept. 6, 1912!