Partially ripping a card opening the mail [Archive]

sportscardpete

06-10-2016, 07:46 AM

I think my worst nightmare happened last night... I bough a raw card online and opened the package last night, and unfortunately it happened to rip the card that was in the package! There was no top holder, bubble, tape, or even cardboard to protect the card. All that came was paper from a receipt from the purchase. I really hate making a big deal out of this, but is this enough grounds to ask for a refund? Or should I have handled opening the package more carefully? I really think that even a little protective[Card was purchased on Ebay].

To caveat, I have opened hundreds of mail packages in the last 6 years and I never broke or ruined anything. This includes raw cards as well.

[I was going to show the ripped card but it's Friday morning and I don't want anything upsetting on the board right before a weekend.. I do have photos I can send to Ebay though].

Pete

Eggoman

06-10-2016, 07:51 AM

I think that you can make an issue regarding how the card was shipped - I certainly would! AND you can ask for a refund, but I suspect that you will not get one.

Good Luck!

frankbmd

06-10-2016, 08:04 AM

John Daly's Guide to Opening Mail

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 08:20 AM

To me, it just depends on the purchase price. If it was anything over $20, I would ask for a refund. Anything under that, I would just move on and never do business with that seller again.

Zach Wheat

06-10-2016, 08:29 AM

To me, it just depends on the purchase price. If it was anything over $20, I would ask for a refund. Anything under that, I would just move on and never do business with that seller again.

Agree with David but I also think it depends upon what you paid in shipping charges. And I would tell them why you aren't doing business with them again...so they can correct their shipping practices.

Z

sportscardpete

06-10-2016, 08:30 AM

To me, it just depends on the purchase price. If it was anything over $20, I would ask for a refund. Anything under that, I would just move on and never do business with that seller again.

$880 to be exact. Which just makes it even more upsetting because the least they can do is protect the card for the price.

nat

06-10-2016, 08:33 AM

Someone sent an $880 card in the mail, with no protection at all!?!??!!! Not even a ten-cent top loader?!? Good luck getting a refund, but that's beyond unreasonable.

Stonepony

06-10-2016, 08:38 AM

$880 to be exact. Which just makes it even more upsetting because the least they can do is protect the card for the price.

What??? Contact seller , or EBay if necessary. Absolutely get refund. Card was inappropriately packaged and was damaged

4815162342

06-10-2016, 08:45 AM

What??? Contact seller , or EBay if necessary. Absolutely get refund. Card was inappropriately packaged and was damaged

+1 There's no excuse for this insanity, Pete!

ibuysportsephemera

06-10-2016, 08:56 AM

That is insanity....can you let us know who the seller is please. Good luck trying to get a refund, I have a feeling though you might have a difficult time getting it.

Jeff

packs

06-10-2016, 08:56 AM

markf31

06-10-2016, 09:04 AM

I don't know, if the card managed to make it you without being ripped I don't really see how you could say the card wasn't packaged properly. The card is ripped because you ripped it.

I lean towards Packs on this one. I do not think a seller should be held responsible for negligence on the part of the buyer once the item arrives into the buyers possession.

gemmint77

06-10-2016, 09:23 AM

Demand a refund. What was the seller? So we can all stay far way. Good Luck

Eric72

06-10-2016, 09:31 AM

What a breathtakingly irresponsible seller. Who ships an $880 card like that? I understand that some will say this is on the buyer. However, had the seller taken any reasonable amount of care when packaging the card, this would not have happened.

If it were me, I would demand a refund.

Stonepony

06-10-2016, 09:34 AM

I don't know, if the card managed to make it you without being ripped I don't really see how you could say the card was ripped because of the way it was packaged. The card is ripped because you ripped it. I could see your point if the card arrived torn.

He ripped it BECAUSE of the way it was packaged. $800 card. Surprised there is even a conversation about this.

midmo

06-10-2016, 09:34 AM

There's no reason a $20 card should be shipped without even a top loader let alone an $880 card. That's terrible. The only time I've had a damaged item due to bad packaging it was damaged in shipping and covered by insurance. This one is tough. Seems like some fault can be placed on both sides, but I lean towards the packaging should have been better. Good luck!

conor912

06-10-2016, 09:38 AM

oooh. that's a tough one. you damaged the card directly due to the seller's inept pack job. i also lean towards Packs on this one. the seller is obligated to get the envelope in your hand undamaged, which they did. however, that is an unacceptable pack-job and nowhere near the industry standard.

edited to add: if you do file a claim, please let us know how it shakes out....i'd be curious to see how eBay rules on this one....they do tend to side with buyers more often than not.

ALR-bishop

06-10-2016, 09:49 AM

Given the manner of shipping I am assuming there was no insurance. Even if there was I am guessing the shipper would say coverage would not apply due to fact damage occurred post delivery.

If seller says here is how I shipped it ( badly) but it got there undamaged. and was damaged by buyer in opening it, and buyer concurs but says damage was because of unexpected poor packing by seller, what would ebay likely do ?

I agree that manner of shipping was irresponsible, but not sure what ebay would do with these facts.

packs

06-10-2016, 09:52 AM

4815162342

06-10-2016, 09:55 AM

packs

06-10-2016, 09:57 AM

I only say that because he didn't mention any other damage. I don't actually know.

Mark17

06-10-2016, 10:05 AM

I agree that the seller should have packed the card better and there's no excuse for crappy packing. But the fact is the card wasn't damaged regardless of the packing. The card was damaged by the buyer. If you're the seller, how do you get made whole too now that your card is ripped (packing issues aside)?

I agree. The seller got it into your hands undamaged, from what you're telling us, so his responsibility, and that of the carrier, ends there. From that point forward, it's a matter of taking personal responsibility for not being more careful.

All cards I've received have had some sort of protection, but I am always very careful to make sure the card is nowhere near where I am opening the envelope. Same when I receive letters, and orders that may contain checks inside.

Just curious, did the lack of protection result in any other damage, like a crease or damage to the corners? I'm wondering if an expensive card shipped that way did in fact arrive completely undamaged. I'd still say you were responsible for the rip though...

midmo

06-10-2016, 10:06 AM

Let's see this card. Go ahead and ruin our weekend! :)

markf31

06-10-2016, 10:08 AM

Let's see this card. Go ahead and ruin our weekend! :)

Pictures of the card and the envelope/packing would go a long way in helping us get a better idea of the situation at hand.

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 10:19 AM

I don't know, if the card managed to make it you without being ripped I don't really see how you could say the card was ripped because of the way it was packaged. The card is ripped because you ripped it. I could see your point if the card arrived torn.

If the card was in a bubble mailer and packaged as the OP described, how is he supposed to know which end to rip from? A loose card like that is going to float around/shift inside the bubble mailer. Whenever I get a card in the mail, I always feel where the card is at inside the bubble mailer (its obviously easier on graded cards because if the thickness). Once I find the card inside the bubble mailer, I open from the opposite end as to not do any damage to the card. If the card was packaged as the OP described, how was he supposed to know where to open from - he probably couldn't have felt the card inside the bubble mailer? If he was expecting a card with no protection, I'm sure he would have been more careful. But when he spends $800 on a card, he was probably expecting some kind of protection and ripping the card was the last thing on his mind.

jhs5120

06-10-2016, 10:52 AM

I'm sorry, this is the absolute worst feeling.

Talk to the seller, see if you can get a partial refund.

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 10:57 AM

Talk to the seller, demand a full refund.

I fixed it for you.

packs

06-10-2016, 11:36 AM

If the card was in a bubble mailer and packaged as the OP described, how is he supposed to know which end to rip from? A loose card like that is going to float around/shift inside the bubble mailer. Whenever I get a card in the mail, I always feel where the card is at inside the bubble mailer (its obviously easier on graded cards because if the thickness). Once I find the card inside the bubble mailer, I open from the opposite end as to not do any damage to the card. If the card was packaged as the OP described, how was he supposed to know where to open from - he probably couldn't have felt the card inside the bubble mailer? If he was expecting a card with no protection, I'm sure he would have been more careful. But when he spends $800 on a card, he was probably expecting some kind of protection and ripping the card was the last thing on his mind.

I agree with you that it should have been packed better but from what the OP said about what happened it doesn't sound like the card was damaged during shipping. It was only damaged upon the buyer trying to open the package. The seller should have done a better job packing the card out of courtesy and common sense but unless the card was damaged en route I don't see how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer.

scooter729

06-10-2016, 11:49 AM

Ouch! And based on the only raw card to have ended in the past couple of weeks meeting the price criteria, is it appropriate to say.....

Say it Ain't So!

Stampsfan

06-10-2016, 11:59 AM

$880? You sure you didn't accidently miss a decimal point in there?

I guess this is another reason to only purchase TPG graded cards... :D

sbfinley

06-10-2016, 12:00 PM

I agree with you that it should have been packed better but from what the OP said about what happened it doesn't sound like the card was damaged during shipping. It was only damaged upon the buyer trying to open the package. The seller should have done a better job packing the card out of courtesy and common sense but unless the card was damaged en route I don't see how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer.

You can't say the first two bold items and then state the third. The card was damaged because the seller was lazy, stupid, or both. I'm baffled that someone so blatantly stupid enough to ship a $1k card with absolutely no protection carries no fault here. The fact his item was carried and delivered by a cavalry of featherlight angels instead of the usual diamond crackers is nullified since said angels didn't hang (float, they float) outside Pete's door to warn him upon his return of the trash of a seller he was dealing with.

File a SNAD claim, get the refund, out the seller.

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 12:02 PM

I don't see how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer.

Yes, it was damaged by the buyer, but if the seller would have done a better job of packaging, this wouldn't have happened. That's how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer. It still falls back on the seller. His lack of properly packaging the card led to the card being ripped.

Let me approach this from another angle. Let's say you purchase a frozen food product that must be refrigerated (or kept cold) and have it delivered via USPS. The seller fails to pack the product with proper packing materials that keep it cold. Is it your fault that the item arrives ruined because the seller didn't do his job? Of course not. The same thing applies here. The card was ripped because the seller didn't package it properly. Period.

packs

06-10-2016, 12:02 PM

Well I only say that because it doesn't sound like the way it was packed caused any damage en route. The damage was caused by the person opening the package. Seek a refund and see how you do. Those are just my opinions.

markf31

06-10-2016, 12:20 PM

Yes, it was damaged by the buyer, but if the seller would have done a better job of packaging, this wouldn't have happened. That's how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer. It still falls back on the seller. His lack of properly packaging the card led to the card being ripped.

Let me approach this from another angle. Let's say you purchase a frozen food product that must be refrigerated (or kept cold) and have it delivered via USPS. The seller fails to pack the product with proper packing materials that keep it cold. Is it your fault that the item arrives ruined because the seller didn't do his job? Of course not. The same thing applies here. The card was ripped because the seller didn't package it properly. Period.

We can propose an example that more closely relates to the situation at hand.

My hypothetical is to say a card arrives to me, shipped in a supersaver sleeve inside a padded envelope. Sometimes those padded envelopes can be a little tough to tear or rip open especially if the seller taped the enveople closed with packing tape. So I take a pair of scissors to clip the top of the envelope off to open. In the process I cut through the supersaver and clip the card inside.

Who's fault is that? Is it the seller because he should have put the card into a more sturdy card holder or additional packaging? Or is it my fault by displaying negligence in cutting the envelope open and not taking care in opening the package that had safely arrive in my possession?

jhs5120

06-10-2016, 12:21 PM

I fixed it for you.

I think it is equal parts on the buyer and seller. I have received cards in the mail with just a stamp and envelope and have managed to open without damaging the card. I have also managed to open bubble mailers with just a loose card inside without damaging anything.

It was irresponsible on the seller for shipping it poorly, but the same result could have easily happened if the seller packaged the card in a 4 inch thick slab of cardboard wrapped a million times in packing tape. I think you always need to exercise caution when opening a package - especially if you can tell the item was packaged poorly.

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 12:27 PM

I think you always need to exercise caution when opening a package - especially if you can tell the item was packaged poorly.

True, but you really can't tell it's packaged poorly until you open it, right?

KingFisk

06-10-2016, 12:38 PM

Ouch! And based on the only raw card to have ended in the past couple of weeks meeting the price criteria, is it appropriate to say.....

Say it Ain't So!

If it's the card I saw on ebay, and you're talking about the same one, I bought a raw card from this seller once (a '49 Bowman Ashburn) and it was in a toploader. But I guess we're just speculating here.

ullmandds

06-10-2016, 01:04 PM

We can propose an example that more closely relates to the situation at hand.

My hypothetical is to say a card arrives to me, shipped in a supersaver sleeve inside a padded envelope. Sometimes those padded envelopes can be a little tough to tear or rip open especially if the seller taped the enveople closed with packing tape. So I take a pair of scissors to clip the top of the envelope off to open. In the process I cut through the supersaver and clip the card inside.

Who's fault is that? Is it the seller because he should have put the card into a more sturdy card holder or additional packaging? Or is it my fault by displaying negligence in cutting the envelope open and not taking care in opening the package that had safely arrive in my possession?

I did exactly that once...it was my fault...so pissed and on a rare boxing card!

Jewish-collector

06-10-2016, 01:19 PM

I don't know the seller, but what happens if they are a member of this message board ? :D

pokerplyr80

06-10-2016, 01:30 PM

I think my worst nightmare happened last night... I bough a raw card online and opened the package last night, and unfortunately it happened to rip the card that was in the package! There was no top holder, bubble, tape, or even cardboard to protect the card. All that came was paper from a receipt from the purchase. I really hate making a big deal out of this, but is this enough grounds to ask for a refund? Or should I have handled opening the package more carefully? I really think that even a little protective[Card was purchased on Ebay].

Pete

Are you saying the card wasn't even in any kind of a holder? No sleeve or card saver? If so my opinion is that is very irresponsible on the part of the seller. I would file a claim and let ebay and paypal sort it out. I would also leave negative feedback describing the manner in which the card was shipped and obviously never do businesses with the seller again.

I would expect even a $100 raw card to be in some kind of a holder between two pieces of card board and either bubble wrapped or in a padded envelope.

sportscardpete

06-10-2016, 02:19 PM

nameless

06-10-2016, 02:57 PM

I do not think you'll have a problem. This happened to me once. I paid over $300 for an item and it came shipped just as yours did. When I opened it I tore it. I should have probably kept it because I am yet to see another example but I did report the issue and sent it back. Paypal refunded me right after I gave them the return shipping details. I'd be surprised if you run into any issues getting your refund. Good luck with this.

trdcrdkid

06-10-2016, 03:22 PM

Thank you all for your feedback! I tried to contact the seller directly but he mentioned that he's positive it was in a hard protective holder (there was none - I am not strong enough to rip a hard protective holder even if I tried sadly).

I will be sending this to ebay to resolve directly and can keep you all posted.

My guess is that the seller intended to put it in a hard protective holder, and thinks he did, but he spaced out when packing it and just stuck the card in the envelope (I assume a bubble mailer?) without one. I hope you get a refund, or at least some kind of restitution, because the seller clearly screwed up, even if it was technically you who tore the card.

Rookiemonster

06-10-2016, 03:41 PM

I had a issue earlier in the year. I got a card in a bubble mailer and it was between two pieces of cardboard that was taped. So I opened the mailer and went to rip the cardboard open. Guess what? No top loader, penny sleeve etc.just the card.luckly I noticed it was like just before I bent the crap out of it.
It was also stuck to some of the blue tape that was put on the cardboard.

I left the seller natural feed and wrote in why. Since nothing went wrong I did not leave a neg. he promptly writes me a all cap message asking why. I told him to read what I wrote in the feed back and that he was lucky I didn't go full neg on his candy a$$.

prestigecollectibles

06-10-2016, 03:46 PM

Every card I ship is in a holder and sent in a box like this. If I sent a $800 card it would be with signature confirmation packed securely, there are no excuses for what that seller did.

vintagetoppsguy

06-10-2016, 04:31 PM

I left the seller natural feed and wrote in why.

Is that anything like a neutral feedback? :D

ibuysportsephemera

06-10-2016, 05:30 PM

I just don't understand some sellers. I package all my items almost the same way. Everything starts in a bag and board or a top loader, etc. Then I put it in a flat rate priority envelope with a heavier cardboard stiffener and all of that goes in a bubble mailer. All of my items have a Please Do Not Bend sticker in bright red or orange as well. Maybe that is why I have 3,800+ positive feedbacks with no negatives? As a buyer, I want my items packaged the same way, but it rarely happens.

Jeff

Rookiemonster

06-10-2016, 05:45 PM

Is that anything like a neutral feedback? :D

Hahah ahhhh auto correct always keeping it fresh. I didn't even notice the error.

Jewish-collector

06-10-2016, 05:54 PM

If I sold a card that expensive, I'd send it registered mail. Because sometimes you gotta say "WTF".

7nohitter

06-10-2016, 06:29 PM

Every card I ship is in a holder and sent in a box like this. If I sent a $800 card it would be with signature confirmation packed securely, there are no excuses for what that seller did.

Completely agree with Robert here. For many people, $800 is a great amount of money. I would be blind with rage if I received a card, unprotected, as the OP did.

TheNightmanCometh

06-10-2016, 06:30 PM

Completely agree with Robert here. For many people, $800 is a great amount of money. I would be blind with rage if I received a card, unprotected, as the OP did.

I'd be enraged if I paid $10 for a card and it came like that.

4815162342

06-10-2016, 06:46 PM

I'd be enraged if I paid $10 for a card and it came like that.

+1

KingFisk

06-10-2016, 08:12 PM

I'd be enraged if I paid $10 for a card and it came like that.
I bought a 1986 Fleer Update Doug Drabek rookie for a dollar and it came in a plain white envelope and was annoyed for a good half hour about it. Those blue borders can chip easily! ;)

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

atx840

06-10-2016, 09:01 PM

After a month of waiting, $25 in shipping & $113 UPS brokerage/tax fee the Mantle ball finally arrived!

Inside, bent LOA and one loose PSA Ball Case in its original box wrapped in flimsy bubble wrapper and a smudged Mantle Signature. :mad:

http://i.imgur.com/gLJAIZk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TUGNzDy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IvKBKMM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EDAmwXR.jpg

TheNightmanCometh

06-10-2016, 09:06 PM

Holy smokes! That's a return if I ever saw one.

chaddurbin

06-10-2016, 09:30 PM

Holy smokes! That's a return if I ever saw one.

judging by the pics, the process has begun.

as for OP i think pete bears some responsibility here, but i'm all for him sticking it to the seller for a lousy shipping job. the seller did contribute to the accident with the way he shipped the card, and it's on him to learn this expensive lesson. if he had any common sense to ship the way a $800+ card should be ship pete would certainly know where the card is situated within the package and open accordingly.

Leon

06-11-2016, 06:22 AM

If I sold a card that expensive, I'd send it registered mail. Because sometimes you gotta say "WTF".

You would first need to own one to sell one. :) I tend to overnight and cross my fingers on higher dollar items. I have done registered on very expensive (5 figure) items. I would ask for at least a partial refund as I believe it was mostly the sellers fault this happened. No excuse for shipping that way. When I won 8.8k (8 qty) of E94 overprints, many years ago, all of them were stuffed into one 3 x 4 toploader. I guess it saved on weight or something. I thought it was crazy but none were hurt. Live and learn.

bnorth

06-11-2016, 06:30 AM

It really saddens me to see how many people think the guy that ripped the card should get a refund.:(

mrmopar

06-11-2016, 09:56 AM

I didn't read any of the replies yet, but I shared something similar to this on another board and the overwhelming response was that it was mostly my fault. Considering how the shipper packaged my item, I disagreed, but I was not fishing for excuses or sympathy, merely looking for how others felt.

That said, I think that any decent seller should package an item that should prevent damage in most normal circumstances during shipping and that includes stuffing something into the smallest possible envelope that it will fit in, taping the living crap out of it and then basically forcing the buyer to cut it open!

Anything shipped loose in a mailer w/o a semi rigid sleeve (at a MINIMUM) is negligent, especially when condition matters. It also doesn't cost much or anything to team bag a single card or tape the top of a holder to prevent an item from sliding out.

If anyone cares for comparison, my item was an 8x10 brochure type item that was mailed "loose" in a thin padded mailer. It had absolutely no room to move, because the mailer was just large enough to fit the item tightly. I think it may have even been slightly taller than the mailer inner edge, so that the flap needed to be folded oddly to close it, but I can't remember now. I tore across the upper 1/2 or so of corner of the envelope, not expecting my item to fill that area that is normally empty in 98% of the packages I receive. I tore a 1/4" x 1' strip off the corner of the item. It was low dollar, but was a Garvey item I needed.

I take partial responsibility for my actions, as I could have opened it up several different ways, but had the seller given any amount of thought into shipping this item "correctly", the damage I inflicted would never have had a chance to occur.

4815162342

06-11-2016, 11:16 AM

It really saddens me to see how many people think the guy that ripped the card should get a refund.:(

Are you serious? If so, are you the seller?

What if a card is shipped raw next to an open cup of coffee inside a big box. Is it the buyer's fault if the cup tips over?

bnorth

06-11-2016, 11:29 AM

Are you serious? If so, are you the seller?

What if a card is shipped raw next to an open cup of coffee inside a big box. Is it the buyer's fault if the cup tips over?

Yes I am serious and no I am not the seller.

Plain and simple the card arrived as described then the OP ripped the card. How can this in any way be the sellers fault?:confused:

I have bought several 100 cards off this forum. I have gotten several of these in a PWE. Yes nothing but a raw card in a PWE. This really bothered me at first but then after reading a few threads on shipping I realized as long as it arrives without damage that is what really matters.

4815162342

06-11-2016, 11:32 AM

bnorth

06-11-2016, 11:42 AM

I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

If it was damaged in transit that is completely different. Now please show me the post that the OP said it was damaged in transit and not by him.

4815162342

06-11-2016, 11:44 AM

If it was damaged in transit that is completely different. Now please show me the post that the OP said it was damaged in transit and not by him.

How would he know if a corner was dinged or if three was a bend before he ripped into it?

pokerplyr80

06-11-2016, 11:57 AM

Yes I am serious and no I am not the seller.

Plain and simple the card arrived as described then the OP ripped the card. How can this in any way be the sellers fault?:confused:

I have bought several 100 cards off this forum. I have gotten several of these in a PWE. Yes nothing but a raw card in a PWE. This really bothered me at first but then after reading a few threads on shipping I realized as long as it arrives without damage that is what really matters.

I could not disagree more. Shipping a raw card with no protection in a plain white envelope is not acceptable in my opinion. It is a seller's responsibility to package a card so it arrives safely. If a card is able to be torn in half simply by opening the envelope it was obviously not protected properly. If I received a card purchased from this site, or elsewhere packaged in this manner I would post pictures and the seller's ID and name to warn other members.

irv

06-11-2016, 12:35 PM

Imo, this is a 50/50 or a "no fault" situation as both parties are wrong to assume it's the other guy's fault.

Seller should have shipped the card, (especially an expensive one!) much better and the buyer should have been more careful opening the envelope, especially knowing an expensive card was inside. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth?

Eric72

06-11-2016, 12:47 PM

Question for the OP:

Was the envelope marked in such a way that you knew it contained something you purchased? Stated differently, did you know there was a sports card in the envelope before you opened it?

Just curious.

markf31

06-11-2016, 01:14 PM

I could not disagree more. Shipping a raw card with no protection in a plain white envelope is not acceptable in my opinion. It is a seller's responsibility to package a card so it arrives safely. If a card is able to be torn in half simply by opening the envelope it was obviously not protected properly. If I received a card purchased from this site, or elsewhere packaged in this manner I would post pictures and the seller's ID and name to warn other members.

The item arrived safely into the hands of the buyer, did it not? The OP did not state there was any further or additional damage to the card as a result of the packaging other than the ripping that was a direct result of the physical action of the buyer. In my mind, the case ends there.

The OP has not posted any pictures showing the rip of the card, or the rip of the envelope which I think are important pieces of evidence in this situation. We have no knowledge of the degree of negligence that the OP had in the "ripping" of the envelope.

Econteachert205

06-11-2016, 01:48 PM

Part of shipping an item safely is ensuring it won't be damaged in the process of normal opening. The envelope was opened normally. It was like setting the buyer up to ruin the card.

pokerplyr80

06-11-2016, 02:03 PM

The item arrived safely into the hands of the buyer, did it not? The OP did not state there was any further or additional damage to the card as a result of the packaging other than the ripping that was a direct result of the physical action of the buyer. In my mind, the case ends there.

The OP has not posted any pictures showing the rip of the card, or the rip of the envelope which I think are important pieces of evidence in this situation. We have no knowledge of the degree of negligence that the OP had in the "ripping" of the envelope.

As is frequently the case in these buyer vs. seller threads important information is missing. Pictures would be nice to determine who is actually at fault.

With what the OP has said I stand behind my statement than if an $800 raw card was shipped in such a manner that simply opening the envelope could lead to the card being ripped in half, it was not packed properly and the buyer should be entitled to a refund through the ebay guarantee.

irv

06-11-2016, 02:21 PM

As is frequently the case in these buyer vs. seller threads important information is missing. Pictures would be nice to determine who is actually at fault.

With what the OP has said I stand behind my statement than if an $800 raw card was shipped in such a manner that simply opening the envelope could lead to the card being ripped in half, it was not packed properly and the buyer should be entitled to a refund through the ebay guarantee.

I purchased a cheap $3.00 dollar John Tavares hockey card this past spring and it came in nothing more than a regular envelope in a card saver.

I wrote the seller and told him I was none too pleased as I believe it could have been placed in a bubble wrapper, and/or wrapped in 2 pieces of cardboard, or anything better than what it was.

He replied, if I wanted a better shipping pkg, I should have requested it, which of course would have cost me more money he said.
I told him nowhere did I see this mentioned nor did it mention how this card was going to be shipped.

In hindsight, he is right. We, as buyers assume common sense will be used and a card(s) will be shipped properly, or as how we would ship them as collectors.

Going forward, I now ask, or allude to how I want my card(s) shipped and wait to see what the seller says?

My only bad experience is the JT card I spoke of, (which I left negative feedback on) but when my card arrived, I knew right away it was a card due to the unfamiliar address and after holding the card up to the light, I knew where to tear it open.

I agree with the OP being pissed, he has a right to be, but I also believe some care or extra care should have been used when he opened the envelope as I would assume most do with any envelope that arrives in the mail?

vintagetoppsguy

06-11-2016, 02:33 PM

The item arrived safely into the hands of the buyer, did it not? The OP did not state there was any further or additional damage to the card as a result of the packaging other than the ripping that was a direct result of the physical action of the buyer. In my mind, the case ends there.

The OP has not posted any pictures showing the rip of the card, or the rip of the envelope which I think are important pieces of evidence in this situation. We have no knowledge of the degree of negligence that the OP had in the "ripping" of the envelope.

If the card would have been packaged properly (top loader or card saver sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard), do you think the card would have ripped?

LuckyLarry

06-11-2016, 02:43 PM

Yesterdays mail included an eBay win for me. An off center 1961 Fleer basketball card #66 Jerry West In Action, the last card in the set. Well the seller must be an attorney because he used an envelope embossed with his firms name as the return address:)

Before I opened the envelope of course I thought "uh-oh" what the heck is this?

Seller only charged me $1 to ship, and the card arrived safely, and snugged in a Card Saver I. So I left positive feedback with this comment:

"I thought I was being "sued" when I got the envelope:)"

He just replied:

";), that ensures priority delivery"

Larry

TNP777

06-11-2016, 02:46 PM

I purchased a cheap $3.00 dollar John Tavares hockey card this past spring and it came in nothing more than a regular envelope in a card saver.
When you say "card saver", are you talking about one of those semi-rigid sleeves that people send cards when submitting to PSA, or a penny sleeve? If just a penny sleeve, then I agree with you. If in a CS1/2, then I don't see a problem with how your seller shipped your $3 card. Is a rigid holder preferred? Absolutely. A CS1/2 is far better than nothing at all, though.

In the case of the Pete's card, I 100% think the seller was negligent in how he shipped a card of that value, but I also think the Pete bears at least some responsibility in how the package was opened. Of course there is was no way he could have known the card was shipped bare, but any package, no matter how much tape or glue was used to secure it, can still be carefully opened without ripping the package. I use a either a knife to cut open boxes, or one of those letter openers (the ones you can fit a business card in) to open bubble mailers that have packing tape on them - slice right across the top, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

sbfinley

06-11-2016, 02:53 PM

It really saddens me to see how many people think the guy that ripped the card should get a refund.:(

This is 100% on the seller. It doesn't matter if it ripped in Pete's hands. If you purchase something of value you have to be able to assume that if you open it in a reasonable manner you won't damage it. Ripping an envelope is a reasonable way to open an envelope. As a matter of fact, unless new envelopes are also transformers, it is the only way. If the card is in a toploader or cs1 it's fine, if it's between cardboard it would have been fine. Pete ripped an envelope, because envelopes have three purposes:

1) Put something in envelope.
2) Close envelope.
3) Open envelope.

They way I have been taught the steps is:

1) Insert item or document with hands.
2) Sealed with adhesive (primarily with hands.)
3) Opened with hands or sharp object.

I'm sorry it saddens you that this is the only way I've been taught to interact with envelopes.

irv

06-11-2016, 03:15 PM

If the card would have been packaged properly (top loader or card saver sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard), do you think the card would have ripped?

When you say "card saver", are you talking about one of those semi-rigid sleeves that people send cards when submitting to PSA, or a penny sleeve? If just a penny sleeve, then I agree with you. If in a CS1/2, then I don't see a problem with how your seller shipped your $3 card. Is a rigid holder preferred? Absolutely. A CS1/2 is far better than nothing at all, though.

In the case of the Pete's card, I 100% think the seller was negligent in how he shipped a card of that value, but I also think the Pete bears at least some responsibility in how the package was opened. Of course there is was no way he could have known the card was shipped bare, but any package, no matter how much tape or glue was used to secure it, can still be carefully opened without ripping the package. I use a either a knife to cut open boxes, or one of those letter openers (the ones you can fit a business card in) to open bubble mailers that have packing tape on them - slice right across the top, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

It was a rigid card saver, and maybe you're right, but it was my first card I had ever received in a regular envelope with no other protection provided.

I forget what shipping was (It was in Canada) but it more than covered what a bubble wrapper would have cost.

Like I wrote above, we as buyers are silly to "ASSUME" anything and as I once heard, the only problem with common sense is, it's not very common.

For everyone reading/posting in this thread, I think we will all be wise, going forward, to ask how our card(s) will all be shipped in the future. I assume, (there we go with that word again) that the OP certainly will be.

frankbmd

06-11-2016, 03:24 PM

This is 100% on the seller. It doesn't matter if it ripped in Pete's hands. If you purchase something of value you have to be able to assume that if you open it in a reasonable manner you won't damage it. Ripping an envelope is a reasonable way to open an envelope. As a matter of fact, unless new envelopes are also transformers, it is the only way. If the card is in a toploader or cs1 it's fine, if it's between cardboard it would have been fine. Pete ripped an envelope, because envelopes have three purposes:

1) Put something in envelope.
2) Close envelope.
3) Open envelope.

They way I have been taught the steps is:

1) Insert item or document with hands.
2) Sealed with adhesive (primarily with hands.)
3) Opened with hands or sharp object.

I'm sorry it saddens you that this is the only way I've been taught to interact with envelopes.

I usually have some inkling that there might be a card within regardless of the packaging.

So if the card was packed in a block of ice, I might choose to let the ice melt, rather than use an ice pick or sledge hammer.

If the card was distributed in boxes of cereal, I might choose to pour the cereal out of box until I could see and easily remove the card, rather than dive into the box with my grimy paw to search and destroy.

Or if the card was contained in one of those molded hard plastic packages that are difficult to open by any technique, I might choose not to open it at all.

And if I received 100 envelopes that day and knew there was a card in only one, I would look at the return addresses to determine which envelopes could safely opened by the "grip it and rip it" methodology, if that was the only way I had been taught to interact with an envelope.:D

ALR-bishop

06-11-2016, 03:47 PM

Everyone seems to agree the method of shipping was completely unreasonable. Most, but not all, think the seller is responsible for the damage that occurred after the item arrived. The question I raised earlier is assuming the seller tells ebay the item arrived undamaged but that it was damaged in opening the package because the method of packing was unreasonable, what is ebay likely to do in that situation ? I guess we will find out.

I have personally come closer to damaging cards I received because they were entombed in tape and bubble wrap to protect them :) Patience in opening is a true virtue.

I have to say Frank, I have not yet experienced the block of ice shipping method

steve B

06-12-2016, 05:47 PM

It can be debated whose fault it is.

What I can say is that had it been insured the USPS wouldn't pay out because it was packed poorly. I've seen this firsthand with a damaged phonograph that wasn't packed with enough packing material. Oddly the USPS people themselves recommended adding packing material to the package before bringing it in for inspection. "Make sure there's enough packing material in the box or we won't cover it" They did cover repairs done by someone in the business based on a quote. The reduced amount probably made it easier.

Funny story.
A friend used to sell needles for the old Victrolas. One day he gets home to find a message on the machine from the FBI. One of the buyers forgot he'd bought them and called the police about the "suspicious package" he'd just received. What was pretty cool was that by the time he'd come home the package had been "neutralized " and the agents were only wondering if they were correct in thinking the contents were Victrola needles. A quick explanation and the number of the Ebay listing cleared it all up. The guy left positive feedback and never asked for replacements for the ones that got blown up.

Steve B

Mark17

06-12-2016, 06:52 PM

It can be debated whose fault it is.

What I can say is that had it been insured the USPS wouldn't pay out because it was packed poorly....

No, USPS wouldn't pay out because it was delivered safely and they don't consider it their responsibility to stand by and assist the recipient in opening his envelope.

Bridwell

06-12-2016, 08:13 PM

Ebay and PayPal tend to support the buyer. I agree that Pete deserves a full refund and I expect he will get it from Ebay or PayPal. It amazes me how sellers can be so careless in their packaging. Careless packaging is clearly the sellers fault, IMO.

steve B

06-13-2016, 10:23 AM

No, USPS wouldn't pay out because it was delivered safely and they don't consider it their responsibility to stand by and assist the recipient in opening his envelope.

The item I saw firsthand was also delivered "safely" - No apparent damage to the box on delivery. The damage was entirely due to poor packing.

A card simply placed in an envelope with nothing else is poorly packed, and proper packing is the shippers responsibility.

Steve B

Mdmtx

06-13-2016, 11:08 AM

I feel badly for the op and I agree that the seller failed. But I also believe the op failed to exercise caution and the liability should be shared by each. Neither party is 100% liable or 100% clear. Maybe the best outcome would be a 50/50 deal. Just my .02.

Mark Medlin

Mark17

06-13-2016, 02:39 PM

The item I saw firsthand was also delivered "safely" - No apparent damage to the box on delivery. The damage was entirely due to poor packing.

A card simply placed in an envelope with nothing else is poorly packed, and proper packing is the shippers responsibility.

Steve B

Totally different situation. You're right, your item was damaged in transit. You didn't contribute to the damage (let alone cause it) because the damage occurred before it was in your possession.

The OP damaged his own card after it had been successfully shipped and delivered without damage. The seller didn't damage it, neither did the carrier. It arrived safely.

Here's a question: Suppose the OP brought the envelope with the card in it over to a coffee table and before opening it, spilled something liquid on it. Would he claim that to be the fault/responsibility of the seller, too, since had it been packaged better, it wouldn't have sustained damage?

K-Nole

06-13-2016, 02:50 PM

Mark17

06-13-2016, 04:33 PM

I receive cards almost on a daily basis and never ripped or cut a card yet.
Know why?
Cause I dont manhandle the package while opening it.
You can take scissors and barely, cut just the tip of the envelope or the tip of the vanilla package.
Should it have been packaged better? Yes.
Do we live in a perfect world where it shouldn't happen, NO.
Should you rip open a package with an +$800 card in it? NO.
Should you be more careful, and not trust somebody else's packaging, YES.

Perfectly said!

Also, I tap the bottom of the envelope on a countertop a couple times before I carefully open the opposite (top) end, to make sure the contents of the envelope are at the far (bottom) end. Isn't that just common sense?

Should the card have been packaged better? Of course, but as it turned out, that wasn't a problem. The card arrived safely. The problem occurred after the responsibility of the seller and carrier had ended.

steve B

06-13-2016, 05:25 PM

I suppose my time doing shipping/receiving of heavy stuff skews my views a bit. By heavy, I mean stuff that would be around 35lbs in a box around 9x9x9.

The coffee spill example is a good one, except that a toploader between cardboard inside a bubble envelope will easily survive that and more. Postmen sometimes leave packages out, and sometimes it's not rainy when they do, but pours a bit later. Should whatever it is be packed to have a chance at getting through that? Or is a simple envelope just fine?

You should see how I pack stuff that's both fragile and expensive. The plate that sold for 600+ could have probably been driven over and been fine. Did it take a few minutes extra? Yes, it did. But lots of time less than it would have taken to go through filing an insurance claim.

Steve B

frankbmd

06-13-2016, 05:39 PM

vintagetoppsguy

06-13-2016, 06:00 PM

Totally different situation. You're right, your item was damaged in transit. You didn't contribute to the damage (let alone cause it) because the damage occurred before it was in your possession.

The OP damaged his own card after it had been successfully shipped and delivered without damage. The seller didn't damage it, neither did the carrier. It arrived safely.

Here's a question: Suppose the OP brought the envelope with the card in it over to a coffee table and before opening it, spilled something liquid on it. Would he claim that to be the fault/responsibility of the seller, too, since had it been packaged better, it wouldn't have sustained damage?

Your argument that the card arrived safely so it's the buyer's fault is just plain ridiculous! It was the seller's negligence that caused the card to get ripped. Had the card been packaged properly, it wouldn't have ripped.

Let's say you take your car to the quick lube place for an oil change. They drain the old oil, replace the oil filter, fill the engine with new oil, but forget to replace the oil cap. A week later you blow the engine because all the oil came out through the oil fill and the engine had no lubrication. You expect the quick lube place to do something about it, but they tell you, "Well, it was full of oil when it left".

That's basically what you're telling the OP. No, the quick lube place would be responsible. It doesn't matter that it was full of oil when it left or that you drove it and blew all the oil out, it was their negligence that caused it to happen. Same case with the card. It was the sellers negligence that caused it to happen.

4815162342

06-13-2016, 06:38 PM

frankbmd

06-13-2016, 07:18 PM

But those checks wouldn't have lost their value if they were dinged on a corner or creased in transit. :D

That's true, but to suggest that either the seller or the buyer is 100% responsible in this scenario is a stretch in my opinion.

If only Judge Judy would chime in, ..................:confused:

packs

06-13-2016, 07:23 PM

Your argument that the card arrived safely so it's the buyer's fault is just plain ridiculous! It was the seller's negligence that caused the card to get ripped. Had the card been packaged properly, it wouldn't have ripped.

Let's say you take your car to the quick lube place for an oil change. They drain the old oil, replace the oil filter, fill the engine with new oil, but forget to replace the oil cap. A week later you blow the engine because all the oil came out through the oil fill and the engine had no lubrication. You expect the quick lube place to do something about it, but they tell you, "Well, it was full of oil when it left".

That's basically what you're telling the OP. No, the quick lube place would be responsible. It doesn't matter that it was full of oil when it left or that you drove it and blew all the oil out, it was their negligence that caused it to happen. Same case with the card. It was the sellers negligence that caused it to happen.

I think it's more like I handed you something that was wet and you then took a step and dropped it. You're pointing your finger at me because it was wet but I'm saying it was right in your hand.

vintagetoppsguy

06-13-2016, 07:34 PM

I think it's more like I handed you something that was wet and you then took a step and dropped it. You're pointing your finger at me because it was wet but I'm saying it was right in your hand.

But in reality, if you were handing me something wet, wouldn't you say something like, "Be careful. It's wet"? You're giving me a warning. Then if I drop it, it's on me.

If the seller would have wrote on the package, "I'm a dumb ass and I don't know how to ship properly. Be careful when opening" then that would be on the buyer. In this case, the buyer didn't know the seller didn't package it properly.

frankbmd

06-13-2016, 08:17 PM

But in reality, if you were handing me something wet, wouldn't you say something like, "Be careful. It's wet"? You're giving me a warning. Then if I drop it, it's on me.

If the seller would have wrote on the package, "I'm a dumb ass and I don't know how to ship properly. Be careful when opening" then that would be on the buyer. In this case, the buyer didn't know the seller didn't package it properly.

David,

Can you differentiate between a bubble mailer reinforced with industrial cardboard and a white envelope? If not, send me pics and I will suggest a strategy to open it safely.

vintagetoppsguy

06-13-2016, 08:25 PM

David,

Can you differentiate between a bubble mailer reinforced with industrial cardboard and a white envelope? If not, send me pics and I will suggest a strategy to open it safely.

Frank, I really don't get what you're saying. The OPs card wasn't in a plain white envelope. It was shipped loose in a bubble mailer...at least that's the way I understood it.

Jewish-collector

06-13-2016, 08:39 PM

If you hold the package up to a light, can you see where the card is ?

Mark17

06-13-2016, 09:19 PM

If you hold the package up to a light, can you see where the card is ?

Either see it or feel it, I would guess.

I think most of us, over 50% that is, could figure out how to open a package containing an $800 card, without destroying it.

Those who couldn't, I am surmising, would blame someone else.

Mark17

06-13-2016, 09:26 PM

If the seller would have wrote on the package, "I'm a dumb ass and I don't know how to ship properly. Be careful when opening" then that would be on the buyer. In this case, the buyer didn't know the seller didn't package it properly.

So now a seller needs to not only get the item into the buyer's hands undamaged, but also give instructions as to how to open the envelope?

This is why there are so many warning labels on everything - somebody buys coffee and wasn't told explicitly that it was hot, or someone falls off a ladder and didn't realize it had to be set on firm ground.

Someone opens an envelope with an $800 card and didn't realize he should handle it with care... Always somebody else's fault.

midmo

06-13-2016, 10:31 PM

So now a seller needs to not only get the item into the buyer's hands undamaged, but also give instructions as to how to open the envelope?

If you are a seller that ships cards this way please tell me your ebay id so I can be sure to not purchase from you. Thanks.

Mark17

06-13-2016, 10:41 PM

If you are a seller that ships cards this way please tell me your ebay id so I can be sure to not purchase from you. Thanks.

Every single poster here, including me, as I've stated, agrees the card should've been much better packaged. It sounds like the seller agrees too, and that he had intended to do so. So, I think your comment is misguided.

Now, if you are someone who, once your card is safely in your hands, would then rip it and blame the seller, please tell me YOUR ebay ID so I can be sure not to sell to you.

midmo

06-13-2016, 10:43 PM

Every single poster here, including me, as I've stated, agrees the card should've been much better packaged. It sounds like the seller agrees too, and that he had intended to do so. So, I think your comment is misguided.

Now, if you are someone who, once your card is safely in your hands, would then rip it and blame the seller, please tell me YOUR ebay ID so I can be sure not to sell to you.

It's the same as my net54 id. Feel free to block me.

the 'stache

06-14-2016, 02:32 AM

From Pete's wording, he "ripped the package open". I don't see anywhere that he specified the packaging, so I have to assume this is a bubble mailer?

First off, why the hell is a $900 card being shipped in a bubble mailer? For just a second, ignore what the card was placed in (top loader, card saver, etc). Common sense, alone, should mandate that a card with that value should be shipped in a box, and insured. That's on the seller.

Yes, Pete probably should have been a little more careful opening the package-I've received hundreds of cards in bubble mailers. It's fairly easy to squeeze the sizes, and, the card falling to the bottom, carefully cutting along the top seam to open it. Ripping a mailer open just leaves too much up to chance. But there's no way I can place the blame on Pete for the card being ripped in half. Nobody in their right mind would assume that a card of that value would have no protection at all.

The seller's negligence in packaging the card is directly responsible for the damage to the card. If it somehow arrived undamaged prior to opening, that's a miracle. Regardless, the buyer has a reasonable expectation that the card will arrive, and be extracted from the packaging, in the condition described in the auction.

vintagetoppsguy

06-14-2016, 04:56 AM

It's the same as my net54 id. Feel free to block me.

Sign me up for that list too. Likewise, my eBay username is the same as Net54.

ls7plus

06-14-2016, 12:25 PM

To me, it just depends on the purchase price. If it was anything over $20, I would ask for a refund. Anything under that, I would just move on and never do business with that seller again.

+1. I have never, ever had that experience with an ebay seller--virtually all packing has been appropriately protective and in accordance with the price.

Best of luck on the refund,

Larry

Jantz

06-14-2016, 01:18 PM

Now I know what to do with all the fishing lures in my tackle box that don't catch fish.

Its not my fault they don't catch fish, its the lure's fault!

I'll take them back to the bait & tackle store and get my money back.

Went deer hunting during archery season a few years ago. Shot and missed a deer. No way could it be my fault! It had to be the bow or arrow's fault! :rolleyes:

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

Wait, yes I can.

steve B

06-14-2016, 01:48 PM

I guess that I am accustomed to receiving checks more frequently than cards in plain white envelopes, but often the checks are for funds in excess of $800.
I do not recall ever receiving a check in a top loader between two pieces of cardboard.

I also don't recall ever ripping a check while opening an envelope that contained a check. In fact I received two such checks today from board members, who will be relieved to know that both envelopes were successfully opened despite the abysmal packaging of the checks in plain white envelopes.;)

Absolving Pete of any responsibility in this instance is like blaming the baby on the sperm rather than the delivery vehicle. Now if the sperm was in a top loader between two pieces of cardboard, that would be a different story, I think.:eek:

Well! that makes sense.

Thanks Frank.

Maybe it's a matter of expectation?

Most of the stuff I've bought on Ebay has been packed at least fairly well. The ones that come in plain envelopes are usually stamps instead of cards. (can't recall getting a card in a plain envelope, but it must have happened sometime over the last .....darn, almost 20 years. My Ebay account is around 18 years old. I wonder if it can vote....
Anyway, the stamps are usually obvious. Since most of what's been printed since the 30's is essentially junk, and is usually available for less than face value, lots of dealers and collectors use it on their mail. The envelope with my new stamps is usually the one with 5 or more oldish stamps on it. I'm always careful with those :D (I'm generally careful with all the mail, but more careful with those. Once I have a boxful, they're even saleable)

The funniest ebay mail I ever had was when someone asked where his stuff was and I told him the check hadn't arrived. So he sent a second one. In the pre barcoded window envelope that came with his electric bill. When I explained that the barcode was read by the mail handling machines to send the mail where it needed to go, he said he'd just learned that from his electric company that had called to ask why he'd sent them a check made out to someone else and included an Ebay printout.

Steve B

sportscardpete

06-14-2016, 02:10 PM

Just as a heads up - EBAY refused to refund. In a way I'm not really surprised; explaining it to people that don't collect cards is kind of hard. For most of you, you can get how a poorly packaged card is a cardinal sin, but ebay can't really see it that way.

Lesson learned is this: 1) PARTICULARLY for raw cards, assume it isn't packaged correctly and handle with care, and more importantly 2) life is more important than worrying about a ripped card (but boy does it suck).

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and for helping me feel a lot less dumb! I've had the worst pit in my stomach this whole weekend but I am glad most of you made me feel like I wasn't entirely crazy!

Pete

vintagetoppsguy

06-14-2016, 02:43 PM

Jantz

06-14-2016, 03:00 PM

Pete

To be honest, my earlier post was not directed toward you.

I know what it feels like to get a poorly packaged card. It aggravates me as well, especially since I go overboard when packaging a card that someone has purchased from me. I've had two packages in the last 6 months either get eaten by the postal sorting machine because the seller forgot to write "non-machineable" on the envelope (paid $3 for S&H) or lost because the seller didn't include tracking and that was with a $4 S&H charge.

There is really no excuse for it. Bubble wrap envelope with tracking = $2.64

I'm always amazed (though I shouldn't be) at the lengths some sellers will go to just to save a dollar on shipping. Once the cash is in hand, they quickly forget that its someone else's property that they are mailing out.

It seems to be common practice these days though.

Jantz

Mark17

06-14-2016, 03:20 PM

Did you pay for it with a CC? File a dispute with your CC company.

Sure, now pass responsibility on to the CC company and get THEM to eat the loss.

Is the concept of personal responsibility completely dead?

Look, I once spilled a beverage on a fairly valuable card myself and I know how depressing it is. But looking high and low for someone else to blame isn't the right thing to do. The right thing is to learn from the mistake, of course, and be thankful for all your blessings. If you can afford an $800 bit of cardboard, your life is likely far better than that of most around the world.

My mom used to tell me, whenever I'd lose or break something, that I should think of the people who get hit by tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and so on, who literally lose their entire homes and everything within them. Really puts things in perspective. For that matter, I have a picture of a childhood friend on my computer monitor here... he died when he was just 16 years old. Looking at it lets me remember and honor him, and also reminds me to be thankful for what I have, and worry less about what I don't have, or have lost/broken/ripped.

Just sayin... man up, admit you ripped it, it's a bummer, and move on. Don't excuse your own carelessness by passing responsibility off to someone else (like a CC company,) thus making a victim out of them.

Mdmtx

06-14-2016, 03:53 PM

Sure, now pass responsibility on to the CC company and get THEM to eat the loss.

Is the concept of personal responsibility completely dead?

Look, I once spilled a beverage on a fairly valuable card myself and I know how depressing it is. But looking high and low for someone else to blame isn't the right thing to do. The right thing is to learn from the mistake, of course, and be thankful for all your blessings. If you can afford an $800 bit of cardboard, your life is likely far better than that of most around the world.

My mom used to tell me, whenever I'd lose or break something, that I should think of the people who get hit by tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and so on, who literally lose their entire homes and everything within them. Really puts things in perspective. For that matter, I have a picture of a childhood friend on my computer monitor here... he died when he was just 16 years old. Looking at it lets me remember and honor him, and also reminds me to be thankful for what I have, and worry less about what I don't have, or have lost/broken/ripped.

Just sayin... man up, admit you ripped it, it's a bummer, and move on. Don't excuse your own carelessness by passing responsibility off to someone else (like a CC company,) thus making a victim out of them.

Extremely well written response Mark.

vintagetoppsguy

06-14-2016, 03:54 PM

Sure, now pass responsibility on to the CC company and get THEM to eat the loss.

Is the concept of personal responsibility completely dead?

It's not passing the responsibility to the CC company. The CC company would get their money back from PayPal and PayPal would probably get their money back from the seller.

If you can't admit the seller was at fault, then I guess personal responsibility is dead.

packs

06-14-2016, 03:57 PM

Mdmtx

06-14-2016, 04:29 PM

It's not passing the responsibility to the CC company. The CC company would get their money back from PayPal and PayPal would probably get their money back from the seller.

If you can't admit the seller was at fault, then I guess personal responsibility is dead.

Personal responsibility dead? You posts have avoided all personal responsibility of the person who actually TORE it.

Maybe it's the envelope mfg fault or maybe the people that sold the car to the seller to drive the package to the post office. As you know, without that car it wouldn't have been shipped.

Wake up. I feel badly for the guy. Terrible situation. But he can't ever get past the fact that he tore it.

I also agree that the seller underperformed by shoddy shipping. But as I said earlier, neither are 100% harmless or 100% at fault. But I can assure you that the cc company, eBay, PayPal or the delivery service are not at fault. They all did their jobs. This failure to accept responsibility is the crap that logjams courts, creates entitled people and causes exorbitant fees. Quit passing the buck.

Mark Medlin

markf31

06-14-2016, 04:40 PM

It's not passing the responsibility to the CC company. The CC company would get their money back from PayPal and PayPal would probably get their money back from the seller.

If you can't admit the seller was at fault, then I guess personal responsibility is dead.

Personal responsibility resides with both the seller and the buyer in any transaction.

When my daughter receives a birthday card in the mail from my parents, I tell her to open it carefully and not just rip it open as she is tempted to do because I know full well that it contains a $20 bill. Now even a bill ripped in half retains its full value, so no harm if it happens but its the idea of opening a package that contains something of value in a careful and responsible way.

Multiple times from Ebay sellers, I've received a stack of cards and each in its own supersaver sleeve but where the supersavers were bound/taped together and in between cardboard to add rigidity. I take extreme care is slicing the tape apart with a blade, knowing full well that I could easily slip the blade right through any one of those supersavers and the card inside. If was to hastily try to hack the supersavers apart and slice a card in the process, I would not blame the seller. I would accept full personal responsibility for having acted in a negligent and careless fashion.

MuddyMules

06-14-2016, 05:12 PM

Personal responsibility dead? You posts have avoided all personal responsibility of the person who actually TORE it.

Maybe it's the envelope mfg fault or maybe the people that sold the car to the seller to drive the package to the post office. As you know, without that car it wouldn't have been shipped.

Wake up. I feel badly for the guy. Terrible situation. But he can't ever get past the fact that he tore it.

I also agree that the seller underperformed by shoddy shipping. But as I said earlier, neither are 100% harmless or 100% at fault. But I can assure you that the cc company, eBay, PayPal or the delivery service are not at fault. They all did their jobs. This failure to accept responsibility is the crap that logjams courts, creates entitled people and causes exorbitant fees. Quit passing the buck.

Mark Medlin

+1 very well said.

frankbmd

06-14-2016, 05:56 PM

The lack of personal responsibility in our society is but one hallmark of what many consider our ongoing moral decay. It's fascinating to me that a ripped piece of cardboard can be used as a focal point to demonstrate this and that the majority of the board aligns themselves with the buyer who ripped the card. It is obvious to me that there is shared fault for this incident and both the shipper and the buyer should accept their share of the responsibility and move on.

I fully realize that posting again to this effect will not change one person's mind, but responsibility can and should be shared by both parties, whether there is any financial restitution or not. There are many shades of gray between black and white. To not impugn (look it up) the buyer in this instance is wrong in my opinion and I believe there are many reading this who would agree, but, because the issue at hand is a baseball card, they will remain mute. To not impugn the shipper would be fallacious as well.

vintagetoppsguy

06-14-2016, 06:37 PM

Whether you think it was the buyer's fault or the seller's fault, the bottom line is that it wouldn't have happened if the seller had packaged it properly.

pokerplyr80

06-14-2016, 06:46 PM

What would be the grounds for a PayPal refund?

Examples of transactions covered by Purchase Protection:

• You bought a book, but received a DVD
•You bought an item described as “new,” but received something that was used
•You purchased 3 items, but only received 2
•The item was damaged during shipping
•The item is missing major parts (that the seller didn’t report)
•You purchased an item described as authentic, but received a knockoff instead

That's from the PayPal site.

Damaged during shipping, and damaged because of poor packing, or a lack of packing is a fine line. I would file a PayPal claim and let them sort it out.

I get that the OP should have been more careful opening the package. How exactly this happened is a little confusing. A picture of the card and envelope it was shipped in sure would help. But if a card of this value was simply placed loose in an envelope I feel that is so egregious as to warrant a refund.

Edit: Frank's suggestion of sharing the responsibility and perhaps issuing a 50% refund is probably the reasonable solution, but this seems like a case that would have to be decided by a third party and a ruling made one way or the other. Contacting the seller and offering a split may be a solution, although the time to offer that most likely would have been before filing the ebay claim.

Paul S

06-14-2016, 07:07 PM

Jantz

06-14-2016, 07:46 PM

Whether you think it was the buyer's fault or the seller's fault, the bottom line is that it wouldn't have happened if the seller had packaged it properly.

Well the card made it from point A to point B undamaged while being poorly packaged didn't it?

That card was going to be damaged during opening no matter how it was packaged.

vintagetoppsguy

06-14-2016, 08:08 PM

Well the card made it from point A to point B undamaged while being poorly packaged didn't it?

That card was going to be damaged during opening no matter how it was packaged.

Kind of hard to rip a card when it's in a top loader sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard.

4815162342

06-14-2016, 08:16 PM

Kind of hard to rip a card when it's in a top loader sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard.

+1

ibuysportsephemera

06-14-2016, 08:17 PM

There have been a number of requests to know the name of the seller. Why has the original poster not identified the seller? I am starting to feel that the situation is not quite what had been portrayed in the first post.

Jeff

TheNightmanCometh

06-14-2016, 09:23 PM

The nail was hit in the head when the OP said that once you pay for a card it's yours. It's the sellers responsibility to ship the item with care. If they do not then any damage to the card, negligence of the buyer or otherwise, is on the seller. There is an unwritten rule that a card should be sent through the mail with care, if it isn't then the seller is in the wrong, no matter how the card got damaged. If the seller had put the card in a top loader, covered it with cardboard, and put it in a bubble mailer, there wouldn't be an issue, but because he wanted to save a few bucks on a $800+ sale he threw it in a package, unprotected. The gall to do something like that astounds me. And personally I don't buy the "Oh, I thought I put it in a top loader" excuse. Someone just paid you $800+ for a card, you better darn well ship it right. I find this whole situation disgusting. And I'm really sorry the OP is out all that money because it's not his fault at all.

tschock

06-15-2016, 09:18 AM

There are a lot of assumptions going on in this thread without any real evidence to back them up. One of the biggest ones (IMO) is that the card arrived undamaged. For those that want to put 100% of the blame on the buyer, I have this question. If, when opening the package (and another thing, was it a PWE or an actual 'package', though I may have missed that) the buyer bent the card, should he take all the blame as well? If, when opening the package, he acted in the manner of a hazmat team handling a possible biological weapon, the buyer discovered the card to be in a 'different' state than what was presented at the time of the sale, would that also be the buyer's fault?

I'm not saying that the buyer wasn't responsible for tearing the card, but to say he received the card 'undamaged' in the package is making an assumption without actual knowledge. Whether a PWE or an actual package, if the little information the OP provided is to be taken at face value, then I find it difficult to imagine that the card actually arrived 'undamaged'. While a tear in a card would trump a simple corner ding, how can someone say the buyer is 100% responsible without knowing all the facts?

I also believe somewhere in the thread the OP indicated that the seller usually puts the card in a top loader (or thought he did, or something like that). That would lead me to believe that the seller understood the risk of sending something 'raw' through the mail, implying that in not doing so (intentionally or not), he assumed part of that risk.

As noted by others, both parties have some blame in this, but I'm not in the position to judge the extent of the blame.

Aquarian Sports Cards

06-15-2016, 09:36 AM

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard of. An $880 card shipped in not so much as a penny sleeve? Even if you didn't know cards, sometimes you get people selling dead people's stuff, if ANYTHING sold for $880 you would think they'd package it securely.

It's going to be a tough row to hoe as you technically did the damage, but fact of the matter is the damage shouldn't have been possible!

Good Luck.

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 09:48 AM

but fact of the matter is the damage shouldn't have been possible!

Yup. I keep repeating it: It's pretty hard to rip a card that's in a top loader, sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard inside a bubble mailer.

The new guy gets it when some of the other board members (that have been here for a while) don't.

Welcome to the boards BTW.

Bpm0014

06-15-2016, 09:55 AM

Can we get a picture of the ripped card already!?!?

Aquarian Sports Cards

06-15-2016, 10:12 AM

Well like I said it's a tough case, there's blame to each party. Just not sure how ebay or paypal is going to come down on this one.

Thanks for the welcome!

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 10:27 AM

I just hurt my toe going to the mail box. If that shipment wouldn't have been there I wouldn't have hurt myself. I'm gonna sue PayPal, eBay and the post office and give a negative to the seller.

bnorth

06-15-2016, 11:00 AM

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 11:05 AM

Now you are getting it Mark. Nothing is your fault even if you done it, good luck on the lawsuits.;):D

It's only fair. The world owes me. Do you know how fabulous I am? Now I can't dance with this hurt toe. Lawsuit is growing.

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:11 AM

I just hurt my toe going to the mail box. If that shipment wouldn't have been there I wouldn't have hurt myself. I'm gonna sue PayPal, eBay and the post office and give a negative to the seller.

I just pulled up to Starbucks and ordered a large coffee. About 3 blocks away, I hit a pot hole and spilled it all over myself. Come to find out, the lid wasn't on good. Help me out here, Mark. My fault for ordering the coffee to begin with? My fault for hitting the pothole? My cars fault because the shocks are bad and shouldn't have caused such a big jolt? The girl at Starbuck's fault for not putting the lid on good to begin with?

Oh, and next time wear some shoes, Mark. Shoes are meant to protect your toes - kind of like a top loader and cardboard are meant to protect a card.

:rolleyes:

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 11:24 AM

Based upon everyone's opinion in this thread, it is clear to me that the city is at fault for allowing a pothole. Everyone knows that the end user has no accountability to verify the lid is secure. Only trained professionals are allowed to install lids. Takes a high level of skill to perform the task.

I just pulled up to Starbucks and ordered a large coffee. About 3 blocks away, I hit a pot hole and spilled it all over. Come to find out, the lid wasn't on good. Help me out here, Mark. My fault for ordering the coffee to begin with? My fault for hitting the pothole? My cars fault because the shocks are bad and should have caused such a big jolt? The girl at Starbuck's fault for not putting the lid on good to begin with?

Oh, and next time wear some shoes, Mark. Shoes are meant to protect your toes - kind of like a top loader and cardboard are meant to protect a card.

:rolleyes:

Mark17

06-15-2016, 11:25 AM

It's only fair. The world owes me. Do you know how fabulous I am? Now I can't dance with this hurt toe. Lawsuit is growing.

If your shoe had a steel toe, hurting yourself wouldn't have been possible. At MINIMUM your shoe should've had a warning label on it, telling you that there was a toe-stubbing risk.

Any accident or mistake anybody ever makes could've been prevented if somebody else would've saved them from their own carelessness. Hence, nobody need ever be responsible for their own mistakes. Isn't that wonderful?!

The card should've been better protected, but the story we have to work with is that the card did arrive safely and undamaged. So, the poor packaging is no longer relevant - it caused no damage as the card was safely delivered. At this point, we have the OP holding a bubble mailer envelope with an $800 card inside. I would think it would be quite apparent, feeling the envelope, that there was nothing rigid inside.

One poster here suggested gently pushing in the sides of the envelope to let the contents drop to the bottom. I mentioned that I tap such envelopes gently on my countertop to accomplish the same thing. Yet another poster here explained that you then, once the contents are safely at the bottom of the package/envelope, carefully cut the very top of it (like maybe 1/16th of an inch) with a scissors. You don't want to use a letter opener and rip it because something, like a packing slip, could be folded and still near the top, and that could get torn by using the letter opener method.

All of this is simple and obvious, for some of us. Maybe somebody should make a how-to video for opening envelopes carefully, for the rest to carefully study.

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:26 AM

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:28 AM

Maybe somebody should make a how-to video for opening envelopes carefully, for the rest to carefully study.

How about a how-to video for properly preparing packages?

If you're going to continue to make ridiculously stupid comments, put your full name in your posts. It's the rules.

markf31

06-15-2016, 11:33 AM

Honestly, its apparent there are those who believe the seller is 100% responsible. There are others who believe the buyer is 100% responsible. And there are those who believe both parties hold partial responsibility.

I don't see an argument that can be made or an example that can be thought up that will change the mind of anyone who holds any of those three stated opinions at this point.

frankbmd

06-15-2016, 11:36 AM

How about a how-to video for properly preparing packages?

If you're going to continue to make ridiculously stupid comments, put your full name in your posts. It's the rules.

My full name is always in my posts, but I resent the fact that you are implying that my comments are also ridiculous, simply because I disagree.

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 11:37 AM

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question. Do you think the card would have been ripped if it were in a top loader, between two pieces of cardboard inside a bubble mailer (in other words, packaged properly)?

Likely not. But that has no bearing. Could just as easily say if he hadn't bought it, it would not be ripped. They both are accountable. Period. I assure you that is correct. Maybe he should consult an attorney and ask how the law would view the division of liability.

The people that have insisted PayPal and eBay and other 3rd parties take responsibility is laughable. I am surely hoping those comments came from trolls and not their real views. If those are in fact their views, we are further down the crapper as a society than I believed. Without going back through and counting, I would guess 50% of the people thought a 3rd party should be held accountable. Wow. Then 75% or so feel it is the fault of the seller, even more shocking.

We used to live in a society where the majority of the populace were accountable. From this small thread, it is apparent to me that, that ship has sailed. I would really like to know the ages of the 4 possible demographics at play.

1. All seller fault
2. All buyer fault
3. Shared liability
4. 3rd party fault.

To remove all responsibility from the party who physically tore the item in question is ludicrous in my opinion.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 11:38 AM

I just pulled up to Starbucks and ordered a large coffee. About 3 blocks away, I hit a pot hole and spilled it all over myself. Come to find out, the lid wasn't on good. Help me out here, Mark. My fault for ordering the coffee to begin with? My fault for hitting the pothole? My cars fault because the shocks are bad and shouldn't have caused such a big jolt? The girl at Starbuck's fault for not putting the lid on good to begin with?

Oh, and next time wear some shoes, Mark. Shoes are meant to protect your toes - kind of like a top loader and cardboard are meant to protect a card.

:rolleyes:

1. The coffee is in your hand so you should know how hot it is, and you should check the lid to be sure it's on securely. I assume you ordered and wanted your coffee to be somewhat hot.

2. You should pay attention to your driving so you could avoid large potholes and this would be more easily accomplished if you weren't drinking your coffee while driving.

So, you ordered the hot coffee, when you took possession of it you assumed all responsibility for it, including the lid (unless someone put poison in it or something bizarre,) and you are responsible for your own driving.

In our society right now, I'll bet it's about 50-50 between people who would accept responsibility for the coffee spilling, and people who, like you, would rattle off a series of others who should've prevented it.

And that is a sad commentary on our country's situation. Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" attitude used to be respected, now it's often ridiculed.

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:39 AM

My full name is always in my posts, but I resent the fact that you are implying that my comments are also stupid, simply because I disagree.

Disagreeing is one thing. Making condescending remarks about 'stumping your toe' or 'making a how to video on how to open a package' is another thing.

TheNightmanCometh

06-15-2016, 11:41 AM

Did the OP pay for shipping or was shipping free?

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 11:42 AM

Disagreeing is one thing. Making condescending remarks about 'stumping your toe' or 'making a how to video on how to open a package' is another thing.

My post was not anymore condescending than the other preposterous ideas that have been posted. We really need to get off the get something for nothing wagon, and begin to hold ourselves with esteem and pride. Be responsible and accountable.

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:43 AM

Likely not. But that has no bearing.

Yes, Mark, it absolutely has bearing. You just admitted that it "likely" wouldn't have happened if it were packaged properly.

If the card would have been damaged during shipping (let's say by a postal machine), does the improper packaging still have no bearing or is it the post offices fault? The improper packaging is what caused the card to rip. Had it been properly packaged it wouldn't have ripped.

frankbmd

06-15-2016, 11:45 AM

My full name is always in my posts, but I resent the fact that you are implying that my comments are also ridiculous, simply because I disagree.

I just pulled up to Starbucks and ordered a large coffee. About 3 blocks away, I hit a pot hole and spilled it all over myself. Come to find out, the lid wasn't on good. Help me out here, Mark. My fault for ordering the coffee to begin with? My fault for hitting the pothole? My cars fault because the shocks are bad and shouldn't have caused such a big jolt? The girl at Starbuck's fault for not putting the lid on good to begin with?

Oh, and next time wear some shoes, Mark. Shoes are meant to protect your toes - kind of like a top loader and cardboard are meant to protect a card.

:rolleyes:

Disagreeing is one thing. Making condescending remarks about 'stumping your toe' or 'making a how to video on how to open a package' is another thing.

May I add spilling your coffee in your lap to your list?

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 11:50 AM

May I add spilling your coffee in your lap to your list?

Yes, right after you add this genius comment to the list...

David,

Can you differentiate between a bubble mailer reinforced with industrial cardboard and a white envelope? If not, send me pics and I will suggest a strategy to open it safely.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 11:53 AM

The improper packaging is what caused the card to rip. Had it been properly packaged it wouldn't have ripped.

I could've opened that package without ripping the card, so your assertion that the packaging caused the card to be ripped is factually wrong. It was not inevitable that the card would be ripped upon opening the package. Frankly, had the OP been reasonably careful, it would've been highly unlikely. But personal responsibility is a concept foreign to some people so I'll quit trying to explain it.

I have added my full name to my posts, too. That was a valid point.

tschock

06-15-2016, 11:55 AM

The card should've been better protected, but the story we have to work with is that the card did arrive safely and undamaged. So, the poor packaging is no longer relevant - it caused no damage as the card was safely delivered.

Your assumptions are showing. Please show me where the OP indicated that the card was or was not damaged in shipping? Obviously he tore the card, but if the card was already damaged (bent, creased, wrinkled, dinged) due to poor shipping, all he did was make matters worse to problem made by poor shipping. Again, had he NOT torn the card, there is no evidence that has been provided either way as to whether or not the card was damaged prior to opening the package.

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 11:56 AM

Let's make a few assumptions:

1. Op contacts legal counsel and they sue based upon tort law.
2. They win said case
3. If emotional distress or bodily injury don't exist, and I assume they don't, all the prevailing side will collect actual damages.
4. Assume it is a card that would have graded fair but for the tear
5. Assume the card tore into equal halves.
6. Both of the equal halves would technically grade authentic.
7. Hypothetical value of an authentic grade vs 880 dollar fair grade is say, 200 dollars each half.
8. His new value is 400 dollars and he experienced 480 dollar loss
9. Court finds each responsible to the tune of 50/50
10. His recovery is 220.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 12:12 PM

Your assumptions are showing. Please show me where the OP indicated that the card was or was not damaged in shipping? Obviously he tore the card, but if the card was already damaged (bent, creased, wrinkled, dinged) due to poor shipping, all he did was make matters worse to problem made by poor shipping. Again, had he NOT torn the card, there is no evidence that has been provided either way as to whether or not the card was damaged prior to opening the package.

Any damage caused by the poor packaging, which would include any damage prior to the package ending up in the OP's hands, would be the responsibility and fault of either the seller or the carrier, and because of the poor packaging I would put that 100% on the seller and zero on the USPS.

Any damage after the card was in possession of the OP is his responsibility.

Had this been me, I would have, first, carefully opened the package without ripping the card. Noting the poor packaging, I then would've examined the card very carefully to see if there was any damage because of that. Had there been, I would've asked for a partial refund commensurate with the damage.

We have been given limited details and no pictures to go on. The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not he is responsible for his own actions of ripping the card.

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 12:15 PM

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 12:19 PM

Mark....come on now...

Which part do you find erroneous?

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 12:25 PM

Which part do you find erroneous?

That the two halves of a $800 card, if graded authentic , would be valued at $200 per half ( I think I said that right) . A$800 card now torn in half is worth $400?? Nope

tschock

06-15-2016, 12:28 PM

Any damage caused by the poor packaging, which would include any damage prior to the package ending up in the OP's hands, would be the responsibility and fault of either the seller or the carrier, and because of the poor packaging I would put that 100% on the seller and zero on the USPS.

Any damage after the card was in possession of the OP is his responsibility.

Had this been me, I would have, first, carefully opened the package without ripping the card. Noting the poor packaging, I then would've examined the card very carefully to see if there was any damage because of that. Had there been, I would've asked for a partial refund commensurate with the damage.

We have been given limited details and no pictures to go on. The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not he is responsible for his own actions of ripping the card.

I totally agree with everything of what you said here except for the following: "The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand. " I went back and re-read the OPs 4 posts on this (yet again). The OP never indicated one way or another, but many seemed to have assumed he did.

My point here and previously is that the OP is responsible for the rip, but may not be totally responsible for ALL damage. That's just speculation on all our parts whether or not damage existed before he opened the package.

Mdmtx

06-15-2016, 12:31 PM

That the two halves of a $800 card, if graded authentic , would be valued at $200 per half ( I think I said that right) .

Like I said, those were assumptions. The facts are, each half would grade authentic, authentic cards have value. A court wouldnt go into semantics about technical grade or eye appeal. It would boil down to the black and white facts of what previous authentic examples had exchanged. My valuation may not be right, but only assumptions, like I said.

One thing I failed to mention would be the legal fees. They could ranged to 100k or more depending on the level of fight the opposition posed. Or it could be a small claims deal.

My outline was merely my interpretation of the legal outcome with hypothetical values presented.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 12:39 PM

I totally agree with everything of what you said here except for the following: "The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand. " I went back and re-read the OPs 4 posts on this (yet again). The OP never indicated one way or another, but many seemed to have assumed he did.

My point here and previously is that the OP is responsible for the rip, but may not be totally responsible for ALL damage. That's just speculation on all our parts whether or not damage existed before he opened the package.

Since you say the OP "never indicated one way or the other," I think my above statement "The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand..." is accurate.

Sounds like we agree. If the OP inspects the card, he may determine that a corner or two was dinged during shipment, and something like that would be damage correctly assigned to the seller. I'm in no way defending the seller for any other damage that may have occurred to the card - but the seller is not responsible for the OP ripping it.

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 12:45 PM

Like I said, those were assumptions. The facts are, each half would grade authentic, authentic cards have value. A court wouldnt go into semantics about technical grade or eye appeal. It would boil down to the black and white facts of what previous authentic examples had exchanged. My valuation may not be right, but only assumptions, like I said.

One thing I failed to mention would be the legal fees. They could ranged to 100k or more depending on the level of fight the opposition posed. Or it could be a small claims deal.

My outline was merely my interpretation of the legal outcome with hypothetical values presented.

I do agree Mark , that the attorney's fees would be extraordinary, irregardless of the complexity or the validity of the case. Please refer yourself to the lawyer joke of your choice over on the watercooler side.

egri

06-15-2016, 01:07 PM

I can see both sides here; the card should have been packaged more carefully, and that probably would have prevented this from happening. OTOH, my understanding of shipping regulations (lawyers, please correct me if I'm getting this wrong) is that the ownership of the card transfers at the destination; after that the buyer is liable. If I was a buyer who received a card packaged like that, I'd be pretty cheesed off about it too, and if I was a seller and a buyer tried to get a refund for a card that was damaged in their possession, I'd probably fight it too.

In a similar vein, whenever I send a TTM request, I always toss in a couple of index cards to protect the card. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't, on a few occasions the player has wrapped up my card and ICs inside my letter of request to further protect the card. Whatever the case is, I always open each SASE like it is just an envelope with a card and no other protection, which a lot of times is the case.

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 01:55 PM

Since you say the OP "never indicated one way or the other," I think my above statement "The OP mentioned no other damage to the card so that isn't the issue at hand..." is accurate.

Sounds like we agree. If the OP inspects the card, he may determine that a corner or two was dinged during shipment, and something like that would be damage correctly assigned to the seller. I'm in no way defending the seller for any other damage that may have occurred to the card - but the seller is not responsible for the OP ripping it.

So you order product " X" from Lowe's. It comes in pieces that care normally well encased in styrofoam as they are quite fragile. As you unpack it , one piece falls to the floor and breaks. It had not been protected like all the other pieces.
You don't call Lowe's to complain and get your money back? Sure you do, and you know it.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 02:04 PM

So you order product " X" from Lowe's. It comes in pieces that care normally well encased in styrofoam as they are quite fragile. As you unpack it , one piece falls to the floor and breaks. It had not been protected like all the other pieces.
You don't call Lowe's to complain and get your money back? Sure you do, and you know it.

Suppose in your scenario, you pick up one of the pieces and rip it. Do you still blame Lowe's?

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 02:07 PM

No of course not. But both my scenario and the OPs occurred because of improper packing. If the packaging is so inadequate that it risks damage from routine opening procedure...it's on the seller

the 'stache

06-15-2016, 02:07 PM

This thread makes my head hurt.

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 02:13 PM

This thread makes my head hurt.

Yeah, but if you pop an aspirin and there's a glass shard in the bottle...it's your fault for not having closely inspected the contents of the bottle

TheNightmanCometh

06-15-2016, 02:13 PM

$800+

$800+, shipped with no protection.

If I spend that much money on a card and I receive it even in an envelope I'm going to assume that the seller did the right thing and protected it. The last thing I'm going to think is, "I better be careful opening this, it might not be protected". To me that should be a safe assumption, without question. The fact that some are putting this on the buyer is insane to me. We operate in a system of assumptions when we purchase on ebay. Sellers assume buyers are going to pay, buyers assume that sellers are going to ship the item with care. If at any point the item gets damaged, from the moment it's put in the envelope, to the moment it's securely out of the envelope, the condition of the card falls on the seller. If you rip an envelope open and damage the card, because it wasn't properly cared for when shipped, then the blame falls squarely on the seller.

This isn't a matter of personal responsibility, not to me. This is a matter of reasonable expectations as a buyer on ebay. You pay for something, you expect it to be shipped with care. The end result of the seller accidentally ripping the card is immaterial. It never would have been ripped if the seller had shipped the item with care. All other arguments about coffee and the like are just association fallacies to me as they don't have anything to do with the OPs situation.

Mark17

06-15-2016, 02:18 PM

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 02:57 PM

So suppose the thing is in a top loader, instead of ripping it you only crease it. Do you still blame the seller?

Of course not. Totally different. In your scenario, the seller did what he was supposed to do to protect the card.

I answered your question, please answer mine:

Let's say the card (shipped the same way it was) would have been damaged during shipping by a postal machine. Is it the post office's fault, or does the seller assume liability since it wasn't packaged properly?

Mark17

06-15-2016, 03:14 PM

Of course not. Totally different. In your scenario, the seller did what he was supposed to do to protect the card.

I answered your question, please answer mine:

Let's say the card (shipped the same way it was) would have been damaged during shipping by a postal machine. Is it the post office's fault, or does the seller assume liability since it wasn't packaged properly?

That would be 100% on the seller for the poor packaging, as would all other damage that may occur prior to the package ending up in the buyer's hands. I think I've been pretty clear about my opinion on this...............

Once the buyer has it in his possession, responsibility transfers to him. If he rips it or drops it in the toilet, that's his doing.

Look, this is pointless as we simply do not agree on the basic concepts involved. This will be my last post on this thread (I can hear the applause from across the country...)

:)

vintagetoppsguy

06-15-2016, 03:44 PM

That would be 100% on the seller for the poor packaging, as would all other damage that may occur prior to the package ending up in the buyer's hands. I think I've been pretty clear about my opinion on this...............

Once the buyer has it in his possession, responsibility transfers to him. If he rips it or drops it in the toilet, that's his doing.

Look, this is pointless as we simply do not agree on the basic concepts involved. This will be my last post on this thread (I can hear the applause from across the country...)

:)

I gotcha. If the card is ripped by a postal machine because of the seller's poor packaging, it's the seller's fault, but if the card is ripped by the buyer because of the seller's poor packaging, it the buyer's fault.

What is the common denominator in either scenario? The seller's poor packaging.

T206Collector

06-15-2016, 03:54 PM

I gotcha. If the card is ripped by a postal machine because of the seller's poor packaging, it's the seller's fault, but if the card is ripped by the buyer because of the seller's poor packaging, it the buyer's fault.

What is the common denominator in either scenario? The seller's poor packaging.

Hypotheticals work in both directions. I assume you would agree that there are scenarios in which both the seller and the buyer would have some culpability in a transaction that was not completed to everybody's liking. In your view, this is 100% seller and 0% buyer. But, I am sure I could dream up a series of facts about how the buyer received and opened the package, on the one hand, and how the seller wrapped and packaged the card, on the other hand, that could skew you off of the 0% vs. 100% position you've been taking here.

Given the facts we've been presented with (including no pictures or descriptions, etc.), I think it's pretty clear that there are degrees of fault on each side of the table. If I were the buyer, I'd complain to the seller about the shipping, but I'd probably eat the cost. If I were the seller, and a buyer came to me with this complaint, I would offer to refund most or all of the sale price. Even though I don't find the seller 100% at fault, I find it inexcusable to not work to rectify the problem for the buyer.

frankbmd

06-15-2016, 05:20 PM

Did I miss anything?:D

Stonepony

06-15-2016, 05:34 PM

Did I miss anything?:D

Yep, Pete finally has posted a pic of the package and we all agree it's on the seller
235048

ALR-bishop

06-15-2016, 06:12 PM

bnorth

06-15-2016, 06:27 PM

Yep, Pete finally has posted a pic of the package and we all agree it's on the seller
235048

LOL change the dog to this one and I have seen that at my house.:D

4815162342

06-15-2016, 08:12 PM

Yep, Pete finally has posted a pic of the package and we all agree it's on the seller

235048

Dave, that's the best post of this thread!

There are good members on both sides of this issue. Pete, show the card man!

TheNightmanCometh

06-15-2016, 10:48 PM

The last thing you're going to think is that you should be careful opening a package with an $800 card? So suppose the thing is in a top loader, instead of ripping it you only crease it. Do you still blame the seller?

This is a false analogy. Your scenario has the card in a top loader and this card wasn't. Like I said before, ebay works on assumptions and one of those assumptions is that what you buy should be shipped with care. This entire thread would be moot if the seller had done what he was supposed to do. The fact that he didn't puts the blame squarely on him. This isn't a situation where the buyer spilled coffee on it, or dropped it in a toilet. This is a situation where the seller didn't protect the card AT ALL and as a result the buyer accidentally ripped it when he tried opening the envelope. The seller should immediately take responsibility and give the buyer a full refund. If he had packaged the item properly the card would have not been damaged.

Card packaged properly = no damage
Card not packaged properly = leaving it open to potential damage

This is the seller's responsibility and he failed. He eats the cost.