Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)

[forazzurri2axz]

Thank you to several of you who so eloquently responded to George and a few of the haters regarding Ali. I would like to skip over his boxing feats as well as the issue of refusing to go in the military to kill innocent non-white people and instead ask George and the other "haters" the following....Please take the multiple choice test below, representing a FRACTION of what he accomplished
*** Ali did the following ..which have you done???????????? ( if you did something even close , you can count it!!)

a) Gone to Lebanon in 1985 and secured the release of 4 American hostages
b) Go to Iraq in 1990 and secure release of 15 American hostages
c) Raise over $120 million for Barrow Neurological Inst (Phoenix,Az)
d) Go to NUMEROUS Children's hospitals (too numerous to list)
e) Go to soup kitchens to help!
f) Save a person on a window ledge about to commit suicide
g) Brought 5 TONS of food , clothing and medicne to help Catholic nun's rescue efforts for Liberian refugees
h) Supported Make-A wish foundation, Jeff Gordon Children's Foundation, Special Olympics, Beat Bullying, Buoniconti Fund for Paralysis, UNICEF, and dozens and dozens of others
i) Honored by Amnesty Int'l, UN Messenger of Peace, Presidential Medal of Freedom ( among dozens of others!)
j) After beating Foreman in Zaire, sits on porch stoop with children doing magic tricks for them
k)HAND DELIVERED food and medical supplies to many many countries around the world!
l) spontaneously gets on a bus carrying disabled children in '92 to sign autographs and make them laugh
m) ALL OF THE ABOVE
n) NONE OF THE ABOVE (hint--this is the correct answer for most of us, incl George)

Ali--you were my hero, the greatest of ALL TIME!

[Leon]

Everyone has a right to their opinion. All that this board asks is that you have a name next to it, so thanks Bill Lat.zko for the thought provoking post.

[Cliff Bowman]

refusing to go in the military to kill innocent non-white people

Just wanted to save that for posterity in case he edits his post and deletes that part.

[Stonepony]

Arguably one of the the most recognized/ known people to ever walk the face of the Earth. My score on the above questionnaire- 0

[Snapolit1]

Great man indeed. Not perfect but none of us are. Did more for other people than 100s of others put together would do in 10 lifetimes.

[packs]

For all the good he did he should have saved some of it for Joe Frazier. Ali was a great fighter and later a humanitarian but I never understood why Joe Frazier wasn't the beneficiary of any of it.

[forazzurri2axz]

Just wanted to save that for posterity in case he edits his post and deletes that part.

not editing my post, wouldn't delete that for a second, ESPECIALLY after the bravest most principled man on earth (and my hero) just died. You must be jokin'!
The only way I'll edit my post is to add to the list many more things that Ali did for humanity that you couldn't come close to in 5 lifetimes!

[btcarfagno]

not editing my post, wouldn't delete that for a second, ESPECIALLY after the bravest most principled man on earth (and my hero) just died. You must be jokin'!
The only way I'll edit my post is to add to the list many more things that Ali did for humanity that you couldn't come close to in 5 lifetimes!

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

[forazzurri2axz]

"Just wanted to save that for posterity in case he edits his post and deletes that part."

I wouldn't edit anything I said except to add lots of things Ali did in one lifetime that you couldn't do in 5! I'll repeat it.." killing of innocent non-white people" .At a moment like this, when Ali's courage is talked about by most of the media, I would be unable to live with myself if I backed down from something I believe in and said!


oops I thought my initial comment didn't post so I sorta repeated it again...sorry (for the repetition, not the comment!)

[forazzurri2axz]

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

Hi Tom--here's when they made up and ali apologized...........
The wound to Frazier's psyche was deep. In the ensuing years, as Parkinson's syndrome limited Ali's speech and mobility, he has evolved into an almost saintly, ethereal force, the controversies of his past forgotten as his fame expanded and he raised millions of dollars for charity. But Frazier has searched for wider renown and struggled to shed his bitterness.

Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.

"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."

Frazier embraced the apology.

"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."

[Peter_Spaeth]

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

My take, and this does not at all justify it because it was ugly, was that it was psychological warfare and nothing more. Just Ali trying to get into his opponent's head with whatever would mess with his head the most. I don't think he meant it. He did apologize to Joe's son Marvis I have read, just couldn't bring himself to do it face to face with Joe.

[btcarfagno]

Hi Tom--here's when they made up and ali apologized...........
The wound to Frazier's psyche was deep. In the ensuing years, as Parkinson's syndrome limited Ali's speech and mobility, he has evolved into an almost saintly, ethereal force, the controversies of his past forgotten as his fame expanded and he raised millions of dollars for charity. But Frazier has searched for wider renown and struggled to shed his bitterness.

Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.

"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."

Frazier embraced the apology.

"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."

Frazier said after all of this that Ali only apologized through a reporter and not to him personally.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

My take, and this does not at all justify it because it was ugly, was that it was psychological warfare and nothing more. Just Ali trying to get into his opponent's head with whatever would mess with his head the most. I don't think he meant it. He did apologize to Joe's son Marvis I have read, just couldn't bring himself to do it face to face with Joe.

He verbally assaulted the man to the point where his family received death threats FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL other than to promote a fight and make money. He alienated Frazier from an entire segment of the population. In doing so he denied Frazier the opportunity to be loved by those that he most wanted to be loved by. And after all of this he still never apologized to his face.

I think the world of Ali, but this part of his life I simply cannot get past.

Tom C

[forazzurri2axz]

He verbally assaulted the man to the point where his family received death threats FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL other than to promote a fight and make money. He alienated Frazier from an entire segment of the population. In doing so he denied Frazier the opportunity to be loved by those that he most wanted to be loved by. And after all of this he still never apologized to his face.

I think the world of Ali, but this part of his life I simply cannot get past.

Tom C

good point, 'nuff said!

[hangman62]

Lets continue this on Net54 Boxing site

[Mdmtx]

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

[Orioles1954]

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

My father was morally opposed to the war and didn't want to kill. However, he felt the call to serve his nation. The solution? He became a medic during Vietnam.

[Rookiemonster]

I don't think George Forman is going to read this .

[forazzurri2axz]

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

yes we'd have organized sports, and this forum and the Internet. Aren't we lucky that we're not all warmongers

[ZachS]

So if there were white people to kill he would have went into the military?

[tschock]

So if there were white people to kill he would have went into the military?

Only if they weren't "innocent". ;)

[Mdmtx]

yes we'd have organized sports, and this forum and the Internet. Aren't we lucky that we're not all warmongers

Too many debates inside those sentiments to even begin.

Mark Medlin

[Kenny Cole]

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

I was admittedly pretty young when the Vietnam War was going on, but I don't remember there ever being a threat of the US being invaded from the North Vietnamese. Or the North Koreans during the Korean War for that matter. It was of some concern during WWII, but that's the only war I can think of since the War of 1812 where being invaded by a foreign nation was an issue. Historically, we have generally gone to war to protect other interests, most often economic ones.

Oh, just in case you forgot, we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled out and left South Vietnam to a fate we either could not or chose not to prevent. My step dad was an Air Force officer who spent several years over there in the early days of our involvement. To this day, he still doesn't understand what we were doing because he damn sure doesn't think we were trying very hard to win the war. But even though we lost, we still speak American English, play organized sports, have access to the internet, and even have the ability to post dumbass remarks on this forum from time to time.

[packs]

Oh wait I see what you're saying now. Never mind my original comment. I will just add the Mexican - American War and the Philippine - American War as wars that threatened US land interests directly.

[Mdmtx]

I wonder how 1,000,000 conscientious objectors would have fared against a blitzkrieg? How about against the Russian army? Surely that would have stopped Tojo. Let's go back a little farther. Maybe the conscientious objectors could have slayed Gengis Khan.

[jhs5120]

I was admittedly pretty young when the Vietnam War was going on, but I don't remember there ever being a threat of the US being invaded from the North Vietnamese. Or the North Koreans during the Korean War for that matter. It was of some concern during WWII, but that's the only war I can think of since the War of 1812 where being invaded by a foreign nation was an issue. Historically, we have generally gone to war to protect other interests, most often economic ones.

Oh, just in case you forgot, we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled out and left South Vietnam to a fate we either could not or chose not to prevent. My step dad was an Air Force officer who spent several years over there in the early days of our involvement. To this day, he still doesn't understand what we were doing because he damn sure doesn't think we were trying very hard to win the war. But even though we lost, we still speak American English, play organized sports, have access to the internet, and even have the ability to post dumbass remarks on this forum from time to time.

Communism.

Some people thought that preventing communism was worth dying for, others didn't.

[jhs5120]

I wonder how 1,000,000 conscientious objectors would have fared against a blitzkrieg? How about against the Russian army? Surely that would have stopped Tojo. Let's go back a little farther. Maybe the conscientious objectors could have slayed Gengis Khan.

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

[packs]

I respect everyone's right to fight or not fight, but I didn't see a lot of power behind Ali's decision. He was never in any type of danger, even if he did go fight. He was a celebrity. Do you think anyone ever took a shot at Elvis? It was more of a statement against the institutional racism of the time. That's why he used the moment to invoke how white people addressed him and how no Vietcong had ever said that to him. That's the power in the statement. Focusing on his refusal to fight I think misses the point of the moment.

[Mdmtx]

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

I agree with that. And if nobody cheated on their taxes our rates would be lower. And if everyone paid for their medical care, those costs would be less. And if we all were nice to each other we wouldn't need alarm companies, guard dogs, electric fences, nuclear arms, policemen, armies etc...

Mankind has proven time and again that many people and groups are ONLY stopped by force.

Shangrila does not exist on earth. Unfortunate.

[Mdmtx]

I will drop from this good spirited debate now, before it becomes ugly. Interesting views.

[Cliff Bowman]

not editing my post, wouldn't delete that for a second, ESPECIALLY after the bravest most principled man on earth (and my hero) just died. You must be jokin'!
The only way I'll edit my post is to add to the list many more things that Ali did for humanity that you couldn't come close to in 5 lifetimes!

I have no problem with Ali, just with a couple of words that you used. I don't understand why you brought up non white and then doubled down on it. What is your point? The only way that would make sense is if you are insinuating that Ali would have been fine with being stationed in West Germany and would have had no problem with possibly killing an innocent "white". That is absolutely asinine. As for your other point, Dick Cheney has given millions of dollars of his own money to charities, does that make him a good person in your eyes?

[forazzurri2axz]

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

phenomenally spoken, thank you!!!

[jhs5120]

I agree with that. And if nobody cheated on their taxes our rates would be lower. And if everyone paid for their medical care, those costs would be less. And if we all were nice to each other we wouldn't need alarm companies, guard dogs, electric fences, nuclear arms, policemen, armies etc...

Mankind has proven time and again that many people and groups are ONLY stopped by force.

Shangrila does not exist on earth. Unfortunate.

I can agree with all of this, but a straw man argument deserves a straw man response.

Muhammed Ali found no reason to fight for a people who had no love for him, nor did he have a reason to fight against a people who did not wrong him. He felt that the greatest injustice Americans were facing was at home and chose to stay and fight it.

[Mdmtx]

I can agree with all of this, but a straw man argument deserves a straw man response.

Muhammed Ali found no reason to fight for a people who had no love for him, nor did he have a reason to fight against a people who did not wrong him. He felt that the greatest injustice Americans were facing was at home and chose to stay and fight it.

And that brings me back to my first post. If an army of objectors faced a fierce army that had no objections against killing, who wins the war?

[forazzurri2axz]

I wonder how 1,000,000 conscientious objectors would have fared against a blitzkrieg? How about against the Russian army? Surely that would have stopped Tojo. Let's go back a little farther. Maybe the conscientious objectors could have slayed Gengis Khan.

and people like you said they were going to undermine our democratic way of life!! (gooks is what Y"ALL called 'em) Our "way of life " was to kill 2 million of them so they wouldn't paddle over in rowboats and spread their communismn around . HA!!! WW2 is quite different than Nam or Iraq and the conversation regarding THE GREATEST had to do with Nam, not WW2. By the way you spelled G______Khan incorrectly.

[Mdmtx]

and people like you said they were going to undermine our democratic way of life!! (gooks is what Y"ALL called 'em) Our "way of life " was to kill 2 million of them so they wouldn't paddle over in rowboats and spread their communismn around . HA!!! WW2 is quite different than Nam or Iraq and the conversation regarding THE GREATEST had to do with Nam, not WW2. By the way you spelled G______Khan incorrectly.

Sorry. Genghis. My auto correct dropped the h. Anyway, I never made a comment pro or con regarding Ali, or a specific time period. My comments were merely in regard to his mindset of an objector. I think that is hogwash. My .02. Type till you are blue in the face, but until you can prove how conscientious objectors could have stopped the holocaust or any such atrocious event, you will not change my mind. And it's lucky for you that people with my mind set have kept your life unencumbered by war.

[forazzurri2axz]

I have no problem with Ali, just with a couple of words that you used. I don't understand why you brought up non white and then doubled down on it. What is your point? The only that would make sense is that you are insinuating that Ali would have been fine with being stationed in West Germany because he would have been okay with possibly killing an innocent "white". That is absolutely asinine. As for your other point, Dick Cheney has given millions of his money to charities, does that make him a good person in your eyes?

NO In my eyes he is a war criminal and should be executed. (not joking).. IFF he gave to charities, it's with the money he made from Haliburton in Iraq and all the millions he made from the war he helped provoke. Ali not only gave to charities but was willing to give up (and did) EVERYTHING for NOT going to kill people. That's a yuuuuuggee difference.

By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people; that's why I made the comment
about killing non-whites.

[jhs5120]

And that brings me back to my first post. If an army of objectors faced a fierce army that had no objections against killing, who wins the war?

Well, there would be no war if an entire side conscientiously objects.

Muhammed Ali fought a much more noble war at home than he would have fought overseas. He was already drafted into an army and fighting for the freedom of millions of Americans when Uncle Sam came knocking.

I have no love for draft dodgers, nor do I have anything but the upmost respect for service men and women, but Muhammed Ali was doing a much greater service to mankind staying home.

[Mdmtx]

NO In my eyes he is a war criminal and should be executed. (not joking).. IFF he gave to charities, it's with the money he made from Haliburton in Iraq and all the millions he made from the war he helped provoke. Ali not only gave to charities but was willing to give up (and did) EVERYTHING for NOT going to kill people. That's a yuuuuuggee difference.

By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people; that's why I made the comment
about killing non-whites.

By the way, you misspelled huge.

[Mdmtx]

Well, there would be no war if an entire side conscientiously objects.

Muhammed Ali fought a much more noble war at home than he would have fought overseas. He was already drafted into an army and fighting for the freedom of millions of Americans when Uncle Sam came knocking.

I have no love for draft dodgers, nor do I have anything but the upmost respect for service men and women, but Muhammed Ali was doing a much greater service to mankind staying home.

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

[forazzurri2axz]

Sorry. Genghis. My auto correct dropped the h. Anyway, I never made a comment pro or con regarding Ali, or a specific time period. My comments were merely in regard to his mindset of an objector. I think that is hogwash. My .02. Type till you are blue in the face, but until you can prove how conscientious objectors could have stopped the holocaust or any such atrocious event, you will not change my mind. And it's lucky for you that people with my mind set have kept your life unencumbered by war.

Your last sentence makes me realize that you are a Ted Nugent Dick Cheney
Richard Nixon right wing fool who just happens to collect baseball cards. People with YOUR mindset encumber our lives with war;

It's lucky for me that people with MY mind set have protested against warmongers like you. Up against the wall, m________.

PEACE OUT

[Mdmtx]

Your last sentence makes me realize that you are a Ted Nugent Dick Cheney
Richard Nixon right wing fool who just happens to collect baseball cards. People with YOUR mindset encumber our lives with war;

It's lucky for me that people with MY mind set have protested against warmongers like you. Up against the wall, m________.

PEACE OUT

P.S. Ted Nugent rocks in more ways than one. Oh, thanks for calling me a fool. You are a warrior in the Thesarus department.

[jhs5120]

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

I believe America was made a better place because Muhammed Ali chose not to go to Vietnam. If you think this is a "crazy idea" than more power to you, it's a beautiful country.

[Bestdj777]

...

[Kenny Cole]

Oh wait I see what you're saying now. Never mind my original comment. I will just add the Mexican - American War and the Philippine - American War as wars that threatened US land interests directly.

Well, both of those wars are arguable I suppose. In the Mexican-American War, annexing Texas was the straw that broke the camel's back since Mexico still claimed Texas as its national territory. In the end, we conquered Mexico City and gained about 50% of Mexico's land, so I guess who invaded who is debatable. That was another extremely controversial, and to some, extremely unpopular, war.

In the Philippine-American War, we had just, and I mean just, gotten the Philippines from Spain after the Spanish-American War and we fought the same people who had been fighting Spain for Philippine independence the year before. They viewed it as a continuation of the same struggle for independence. We didn't. Again, who was the invader really depends on point of view.

[Cliff Bowman]

NO In my eyes he is a war criminal and should be executed. (not joking).. IFF he gave to charities, it's with the money he made from Haliburton in Iraq and all the millions he made from the war he helped provoke. Ali not only gave to charities but was willing to give up (and did) EVERYTHING for NOT going to kill people. That's a yuuuuuggee difference.

By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people; that's why I made the comment
about killing non-whites.

Thank you for making my point. Just because someone does good things for society does not mean they are above criticism, which is what you are trying to convey.

[Kenny Cole]

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

I would suggest that sometimes it makes sense to try and figure out what you are fighting for before you engage. People understood the reasons for WWII, but even that war had conscientious objectors such as the Amish, Mennonites and at least some Quakers.

With respect to Vietnam, I'm not sure anyone ever did that, other than to make sure that we kept those darn communists, who were already here by the way and therefore subject to our laws AND our constitutional protections (despite Joe McCarthy's efforts to the contrary), out of here. That obviously worked out well. :rolleyes:

[clydepepper]

I will drop from this good spirited debate now, before it becomes ugly. Interesting views.



Mark- just a reminder of your previous promise.

Seems it's difficult for some of us to live up to their convictions even for the short term.

Try to imagine how difficult it was to face the consequences of your decision - not running over the Canadian border or enrolling at Oxford as actual 'draft dodgers' did.

Imagine instead standing by your decision and seeing the best years of your life being subjected to the kind of criticism that 'folks' like you continue to spew.

I will not promise to 'drop out' of this discussion as I believe in defending true Heroes.


.

[Wite3]

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ali on several occasions at show signings and one notable run in at a hotel here in Los Angeles. I got to sit and speak with him and his daughter and he was personable, funny, and wanted nothing more than to make others around him feel comfortable. As much as he seemed to crave fame at the height of his career, he seemed, at least to me, almost shy about it at times and people came up to us and asked for autographs and photos. I never got his autograph but was much happier to shake his hand. I was younger then and did not appreciate the man and what he came to represent as much as I do now.

I rarely wade into these frays but my hero, Jackie Robinson, respected him and was able to create a friendship with someone who held very different views. In fact, that is one of the things I have come to appreciate about Ali, his ability to engage with any culture, religion, race, etc. in a meaningful and respectful way...I wish we could all aspire and strive for that one character trait...

Joshua

[CMIZ5290]

P.S. Ted Nugent rocks in more ways than one. Oh, thanks for calling me a fool. You are a warrior in the Thesarus department.

Ted Nugent is a moron, just my opinion....

[Kenny Cole]

Ted Nugent is a moron, just my opinion....

Absolutely agree, but I still like Snakeskin Cowboy and Stranglehold pretty well. Not as much as I used to 35 years ago, but pretty well.

[CMIZ5290]

I don't think George Forman is going to read this .

I got in this thread after the fact. Are we talking about the same "George"? If it's Forman, did you hear him this morning on Mike and Mike? He had nothing but endless praise and admiration for Ali.....

[CMIZ5290]

Absolutely agree, but I still like Snakeskin Cowboy and Stranglehold pretty well. Not as much as I used to 35 years ago, but pretty well.

Yep, "Free for all" as well. I love his guitar playing when I was a teenager. This guy absolutely annoys me now though. He can't wait to go out and kill animals, and then brag about how many he slaughtered. This type of mentality is a shame in our society.....

[HRBAKER]

'Bout time to introduce some religion into this thread and get all the bases covered. One thing Ted Nugent has on Dick Cheney is that he is a better shot.

[clydepepper]

Yep, "Free for all" as well. I love his guitar playing when I was a teenager. This guy absolutely annoys me now though. He can't wait to go out and kill animals, and then brag about how many he slaughtered. This type of mentality is a shame in our society.....



I have high praise for any and all who trapped or hunted those great-tasting cows that make up my double-whopper....yum, yum...


but, no, I do not want to see them or hear about their treatment prior to arriving in the bun.

I am, unabashedly, into food consumption, not preparation. :D



.

[bmarlowe1]

Just a little fact checking with respect to some previous posts:

1) "By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people."

So, I'll name one. Under Clinton, we did a considerable amount of bombing of white Christian Serbia. I guess you forgot. BTW - I think it was a good call.

2) "You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world."

Yes India, a country with nuclear weapons, a huge military, in a perpetual state of near-war with Pakistan. I would add that Gandhi's tactics ultimately prevailed against the U.K., how long do you think he would have survived had Imperial Japan succeeded in South Asia and pushed the Brits out of India?

[whitehse]

I just think it is ironic that this thread and the discussion on Ali's failure to serve his country was started on a day in which we honor and remember those who served and gave their lives on D-Day, 70+ years ago today.

Perhaps we can all take a moment to honor those who served to protect our right to say what we want, when we want it than to argue over an icon that admittedly had some skeletons in his closet but eventually did some good for society.

[HRBAKER]

"Facts are stubborn things."

[forazzurri2axz]

Well, both of those wars are arguable I suppose. In the Mexican-American War, annexing Texas was the straw that broke the camel's back since Mexico still claimed Texas as its national territory. In the end, we conquered Mexico City and gained about 50% of Mexico's land, so I guess who invaded who is debatable. That was another extremely controversial, and to some, extremely unpopular, war.

In the Philippine-American War, we had just, and I mean just, gotten the Philippines from Spain after the Spanish-American War and we fought the same people who had been fighting Spain for Philippine independence the year before. They viewed it as a continuation of the same struggle for independence. We didn't. Again, who was the invader really depends on point of view.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

[CMIZ5290]

I have high praise for any and all who trapped or hunted those great-tasting cows that make up my double-whopper....yum, yum...


but, no, I do not want to see them or hear about their treatment prior to arriving in the bun.

I am, unabashedly, into food consumption, not preparation. :D



.

Raymond- I hear you. My point about this guy is that he doesn't give a damn about endangered species in Africa, India, and other places. That's what I was referring to. It's one thing when you're talking about deer, hogs, turkeys, etc, as long as it's in hunting regulations....But the other is disgusting in my opinion....

[Bigdaddy]

Hopefully none of us will be held accountable for our lowest action, just as we will not be rewarded solely on our single greatest one.

Ali teetered on the verge of treason to his country and even to his brother (Frazier), but that energy was refocused in his post-boxing career and his life's work reached across those chasms in later years, for the betterment of much of society.

[xplainer]

This thread needs to be over on Blowout.
And there is one there similar.

Ali was a great boxer. Maybe the Greatest. But not a great American.
Check out his links to Malcom X, his sudden conversion to Islam (religion covered) his video clips where he states, the Viet Cong aren't his enemies, the white people are.

The draft dodging isn't really an issue with me. Too many names to add to that list. Start with Kerry, Clinton and Bush.

But his life, as a whole, does not impress me.

If he is your hero, fine. So be it.
He just wasn't mine.

In closing, I salute Pat Tillman.

Google if you need to OP. :D

P.S. - "Cat Scratch Fever" :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

[clydepepper]

Raymond- I hear you. My point about this guy is that he doesn't give a damn about endangered species in Africa, India, and other places. That's what I was referring to. It's one thing when you're talking about deer, hogs, turkeys, etc, as long as it's in hunting regulations....But the other is disgusting in my opinion....


Kevin - Yeah, I'll agree with you as far as the endangered species are concerned. We have a millionaire here in town who has a big 'trophy' room including a stuffed elephant. What an a$$hole!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of those guys like that dentist who shot the lion last year, who are willing to pay top dollar to 'prove' something.

They use their dollars to first prey on needy individuals in third-world type economies to assist them which, in my opinion, just adds to what I call their crimes.

Aside from the endangered species, Nugent does eat what he shots and doesn't hunt for the afore-mentioned trophies. Just like me, I go through the Burger King Drive-Thru, bring it right home and 'consume' it while it's hot - without even thinking of hanging it on the wall or some such nonsense.

We can thank Ted for 'Cat-scratch Fever' too. :cool::eek:


.

[griffon512]

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"
with all of that time you spent replying to people -- many of whom had well thought out, valid counterpoints -- that dared to disagree with you, you could have served at least 50 people at a soup kitchen (e. in your original post). damn shame.

[CMIZ5290]

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

+1....

[forazzurri2axz]

with all of that time you spent replying to people -- many of whom had well thought out, valid counterpoints -- that dared to disagree with you, you could have served at least 50 people at a soup kitchen (e. in your original post). damn shame.

and you could have made a donation to a charity that helps poor people instead of spewing out BS ---I did not reply to many people who had counterpoints; I believe it was 2. And would it be better to avoid responding to people whose viewpoints I feel are dangerous to society? And what have you done to improve the lives of others lately????

[CMIZ5290]

I get the bitter feelings by some people pertaining Ali's dodging of the Vietnam War. I get it. But can anyone tell me why in the Hell we were there to begin with?? I know that this is not the point of the discussion, just hoping for some insight. By the way, I was a History major and I still don't understand it to this day. Also, even if you don't give Ali a pass for that, what about his humanitarian accomplishments decades after that? Bill L. posted it the best....

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin - Yeah, I'll agree with you as far as the endangered species are concerned. We have a millionaire here in town who has a big 'trophy' room including a stuffed elephant. What an a$$hole!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of those guys like that dentist who shot the lion last year, who are willing to pay top dollar to 'prove' something.

They use their dollars to first prey on needy individuals in third-world type economies to assist them which, in my opinion, just adds to what I call their crimes.

Aside from the endangered species, Nugent does eat what he shots and doesn't hunt for the afore-mentioned trophies. Just like me, I go through the Burger King Drive-Thru, bring it right home and 'consume' it while it's hot - without even thinking of hanging it on the wall or some such nonsense.

We can thank Ted for 'Cat-scratch Fever' too. :cool::eek:


.

Don't even get me started about Walter Palmer.....

[tschock]

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.
Joshua

Really? A somewhat flawed or idealistic analogy. Britain was not North Vietnam, North Korea, the USSR, China, Japan, Germany, etc. Do you honestly feel that a nation full of conscientious objectors would have worked well for the South Vietnamese? Maybe you should ask the Cambodians how well that worked out? Or France?

It really depends largely on who you are 'conscientiously objecting' against and what's in it for them (one way or the other).

[George]

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Check out...his video clips where he states, the Viet Cong aren't his enemies, the white people are.

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

[Kenny Cole]

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

Well, just to be accurate, that conviction was unanimously reversed by the US Supreme Court, with one justice recusing.

[George]

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

[griffon512]

and you could have made a donation to a charity that helps poor people instead of spewing out bs ---i did not reply to many people who had counterpoints; i believe it was 2. And would it be better to avoid responding to people whose viewpoints i feel are dangerous to society? And what have you done to improve the lives of others lately????
all caps because you are annoying me and to hammer home the point.

Funny you should ask what i have done to improve the lives of others lately? Mid-career i decided to transition to being a professional social worker so i could devote more of my time to work that i find meaningful, i.e., improving the lives of others.

One of the sad realities i've found as a social worker is that those who think of themselves as profoundly moral and tolerant versus most other humans are generally ignorant, obstinate, and intolerant [insert your picture here]. Ouch! That hurt a little, i know. It's ok, just keep on reminding yourself how righteous you are!

[Kenny Cole]

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

[CMIZ5290]

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

Yet while he was saying this, he was eating at the back of the diner...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though :rolleyes:

[CMIZ5290]

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

David- If this is your stance on Ali, your feelings about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson must be staggering....Both of whom I have no use for by the way....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Yet while he was saying this, he was eating at the back of the diner...

Kevin Mize just being his usual dumbass self.

Jackie Robinson had it way worse that Ali, yet he didnt call white people "the enemy"...nor did he dodge the draft.

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin Mize just being his usual dumbass self.

Jackie Robinson had it way worse that Ali, yet he didnt call white people "the enemy"...nor did he dodge the draft.

You're the idiot, as usual. The beauty of this forum is some things never change, including you....

[Kenny Cole]

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though :rolleyes:

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

[vintagetoppsguy]

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

Kevin, congrats. You have a new member in the dumbass club.

Edited to add: Ali was a piece of shit draft dodger. He is a disgrace to everyone (of all races) that were drafted and served.

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin, congrats. You have a new member in the dumbass club.

I appreciate that Dave, but unlike you, I don't have the IQ of a fire hydrant....

[CMIZ5290]

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

Kenny- You're wasting your time with James...Brains of a fire ant....

[Kenny Cole]

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I appreciate that Dave, but unlike you, I don't have the IQ of a fire hydrant....

I was thinking it was really nice of your mommy to let you stay up late, but then I remembered that school is now out for the summer. Just try snd keep the noise down around the house. The adults have to get up and go to work in the morning.

[CMIZ5290]

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

Priceless.....:D

[CMIZ5290]

I was thinking it was really nice of your mommy to let you stay up late, but then I remembered that school is now out for the summer. Just try snd keep the noise down around the house. The adults have to get up and go to work in the morning.

It's funny you mentioned that, I would have figured you would have been at Gilley's by now....

[vintagetoppsguy]

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

I failed both, Kenny boy. I also failed Draft Dodging I and II because I did step up and serve my country. Did you, or are you just talking out of your ass...again?

[vintagetoppsguy]

It's funny you mentioned that, I would have figured you would have been at Gilley's by now....

Nope, I quit going there after they took down the rebel flag. Your state still flies it though, right?

[Kenny Cole]

J
David, joined ROTC and got discharged due to active asthma during summer camp at Ft. Riley. Unfortunately, in your case, serving your country didn't make you any smarter. Sorry Kevin, that was an awful mistake I made. :(

[vintagetoppsguy]

Unfortunately, in your case, serving your country didn't make you any smarter.

Maybe it didn't Kenny boy, but it sure as hell gave me a better appreciation of those who served our counrty and even more appreciation of those that made the ultimate sacrifice, while those like Ali dodged their duty.

[George]

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

[CMIZ5290]

nope, i quit going there after they took down the rebel flag. Your state still flies it though, right?

24/7

[Kenny Cole]

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.

[CMIZ5290]

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.
I lost 3 great Uncles (My Grandmother's brothers) in WWII. Two in combat, and one in a stinking Japanese prison camp. Isn't it amazing how we still buy German and Japanese cars to this day??

[vintagetoppsguy]

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.

Differences aside, a sincere thank you to your family members that serve(d). Just curious though, what do they think of Ali dodging the draft?

[Kenny Cole]

Dad is dead, so I can't ask him. He pulled for Ali against Frazier though. My stepdad didn't like the decision Ali made when drafted, but thought he did more than enough good afterward to atone for it. I talked to him just a little about it the other day. I haven't asked, but I'm sure my stepbrother feels somewhat like you do, and I'm sure my stepsister feels 100% the opposite way. Those two are complete polar opposites, always disagree about everything, and don't even talk anymore.:(

[slidekellyslide]

There are some realllllly stupid (and likely racist) people inhabiting this forum. Ali sucks because he's a draft dodger, but Ted Nugent, a real draft dodger, and pedophile RAWKS!!!1 Oh, and John Kerry who voluntarily signed up for the war in Vietnam is somehow a draft dodger???

Shaking my head......

[forazzurri2axz]

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

"Laura and I are saddened by the death of Muhammad Ali, The Greatest of All Time. I gave Ali the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 and wondered aloud how he stayed so pretty throughout so many fights. 'It probably had to do with his beautiful soul. He was a fierce fighter and he's a man of peace, just like Odessa and Cassius Clay, Sr., believed their son could be.'
"Muhammad Ali was an iconic and historic figure who thrilled, entertained, influenced, and inspired millions. Americans will always be proud to have been in his corner and called him one of our own.
Laura and I send our heartfelt condolences to Muhammad Ali's family and friends."
# # #
White House photo by Paul Morse, courtesy of the George W. Bush Presidential Library and Museum/NARA.

I was going to have several responses to your post so I put this as the first one and then realized he didn't serve! but it's a pretty good one from someone you probably voted for...and the ONLY thing I have ever agreed with Bush on!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

There are some realllllly stupid (and likely racist) people inhabiting this forum. Ali sucks because he's a draft dodger, but Ted Nugent, a real draft dodger, and pedophile RAWKS!!!1 Oh, and John Kerry who voluntarily signed up for the war in Vietnam is somehow a draft dodger???

Shaking my head......

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

[btcarfagno]

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

I can get past and forgive many of the things he said and did during the 1960's and early 70's as he was pretty much a puppet of the Nation of Islam. He was a follower at that point, not a leader. He parroted what they told him to say. Not that that makes it right, but considering the times, considering what he saw going on around him, and considering how proud of a man he always was, I can personally get past that.

I just haven't been able to get past what he put Frazier through and never personally apologized for.

Tom C

[ksabet]

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

Wow its unbelievable that people don't realize he was just a kid being influenced and used by others for political purposes.

I bet there isn't a person on the board that has said or done something racist when they were younger and regretted if not hated themselves for it.

We don't know what was in his heart or mind at the time so why are we judging a man? Because he was famous and we can sit in our glass houses and high horses while we do it.

[D. Bergin]

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.


I was talking to my Dad yesterday. He was an Army Ranger during the Vietnam War, is a proud veteran, can recite military history from throughout the 20th Century, and he had nothing but complimentary things to say about Ali.

[drmondobueno]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

[4815162342]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.



+ infinity

[Paul S]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Agreed.

[Cliff Bowman]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Yes, please, before any innocent non-whites are harmed.

[vintagetoppsguy]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.

[clydepepper]

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.


+1

enough is enough




.

[Michael B]

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

Very true. The unrepentant self promoter that he is "Live Shot" Kerry, as he is called by some in Mass., tried to re-enact the action where he earned the silver star to upgrade it to the Medal of Honor.

[T206Collector]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

+1

If you find yourself writing about something other than pre-war baseball cards on this forum, I would encourage you to find another place to do it. While it is possible for those of us who are disinterested in learning the political or religious leanings of pre-war baseball card collectors to just skip the thread or try to ignore it, the unhealthy effect such discourse has on the one thing that brings us all here is inevitable.

[obcbobd]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.



Please!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[egri]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Amen.

[Leon]

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.

+1 lock it!! ...oh wait, that's me..

I was just telling someone I was coming back every few hours for the drama. :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

[kcohen]

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

[Stonepony]

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

That's why they want it locked...they can't help themselves from coming back to it and posting. They certainly dont want someone posting a dissenting opinion and not being here to respond!

[Peter_Spaeth]

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Favorite-Band-Killing-Rivalries/dp/0316259152/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1K92645S49JBV31J02WV

[T206Collector]

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh please. Hopefully the hobby and this board will survive.

[D. Bergin]

"Somebody please take away our pitchforks. We can't handle the responsibility."


LOL!


;)

[Leon]

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

There has to be at least a few zingers left, huh Ken? :) Hope all is well for you.....

.

[JeremyW]

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you can't respect their opinion or their right to express it. To me, that means that our fathers, grandfathers, & great-grandfathers fought for all Americans, black, white, etc. to express their opinions. I think, as Americans, we should should respect each others opinions, although we may disagree.

[steve B]

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

Oooohhhh...............Hendrix vs Cream !

Actually, I just can't manage to get into that one. I like them both, and there are plenty references to both that tell me neither Hendrix or Clapton would get into it either. When Cream broke up Hendrix played a song live that night and specifically said something along the lines of "It's not about who's better or anything it's just a great song and I wish them the best" Clapton supposedly said at one time that the first time he saw Hendrix he couldn't bring himself to pick up the guitar for a couple weeks. (Probably apocryphal since I've heard the same thing with other guitar players.)

What wasn't mentioned about Nugent is that a good deal of the venison he and his friends hunt gets donated to people in need who have heart conditions since it's supposedly much healthier than beef.

Of course, Hendrix enlisted, and was a paratrooper. Got kicked out/ left depending on what account you read. The actual record shows him being kicked out if I'm not mistaken.

While I was a bit young, I've studied a bit, and overall it was a complex and often bitterly divided time. I'd rather look at someones overall life and what they've done good and bad rather than condemn them for a choice made while young during that sort of era.

That should cover all the derailing points no? Hendrix, Cream, a minor religious reference, and a bit of Ted Nugent.

I'll leave you with this, a bit of a musical interlude by one of those dirty hippies who's also a veteran.:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsnSANzUYJE


Steve B

[Mark17]

Your last sentence makes me realize that you are a Ted Nugent Dick Cheney
Richard Nixon right wing fool...

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

Johnson did a lot of good on the civil rights front, no?

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/johnson.htm

[RichardSimon]

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

Detrimental to the health of the board??
Please,,, skip the thread if you don't want to read it.
Please explain to me how it is detrimental when anyone can just skip it.

[RichardSimon]

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RichardSimon]

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

Here you are George!!!
US Army veteran US 51606---
Ali was a hero to his country. There is a difference between country and government.

[RichardSimon]

By the way, you misspelled huge.


Uh,,, are you kidding or is that a serious statement?

[RichardSimon]

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. Mark Twain
--
I would speculate that Mark Twain would not have supported his government during the Vietnam War.
That is what Ali was doing.

[Cliff Bowman]

By the way, you misspelled huge.

He was mocking Trump.

[joeadcock]

Wow its unbelievable that people don't realize he was just a kid being influenced and used by others for political purposes.

I bet there isn't a person on the board that has said or done something racist when they were younger and regretted if not hated themselves for it.

We don't know what was in his heart or mind at the time so why are we judging a man? Because he was famous and we can sit in our glass houses and high horses while we do it.

True.....but when one realizes this, they should disown it if they indeed believe they were wronged.

Agree, we dont know what was in his mind/heart at that time or even at the end. Only ONE knows that, and where you end up He decides.

[vintagetoppsguy]

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

[Bpm0014]

^^^ Good points.

[CMIZ5290]

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

David, Can you just let this go?? Please, Holy s***. We get it, you hate Ali. After I end this post I will alert the media for you....

[vintagetoppsguy]

David, Can you just let this go?? Please, Holy s***. We get it, you hate Ali. After I end this post I will alert the media for you....

No, Kevin, I don't hate Ali. I just have no respect for him and, to me at least, he is certainly no hero.

[forazzurri2axz]

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

The hobby is in critical condition because of this thread. If 25 more people post, the RC Mantle will drop by $50,000 in whatever grade, and the Clemente RC will be put in bike spokes by the children of everyone here.
Whether one is in favor of this being locked by Leon opr not, I seriously doubt it's in the ingterest of saving the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Puulleease

[forazzurri2axz]

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

a hero to millions and millions in this country and perhaps BILLIONS throughout the world ....and that is certainly not why our country is so divided. It's divided because of obstructionists like yourself

[tiger8mush]

The hobby is in critical condition because of this thread. If 25 more people post, the RC Mantle will drop by $50,000 in whatever grade, and the Clemente RC will be put in bike spokes by the children of everyone here.
Whether one is in favor of this being locked by Leon opr not, I seriously doubt it's in the ingterest of saving the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Puulleease

You are very good at putting words in people's mouths

[vintagetoppsguy]

a hero to millions and millions in this country and perhaps BILLIONS throughout the world ....and that is certainly not why our country is so divided. It's divided because of obstructionists like yourself

Good to know you support his racist views

[xplainer]

Good to know you support his racist views

Wow. No joke.
I can't believe what I just read. :eek:

forazzuriaxz, you just painted a fantastic portrait of youself.

Glad to have known you. Go over to the Blowout. They will welcome you with open arms.

[Mdmtx]

Uh,,, are you kidding or is that a serious statement?

You obviously didn't read the thread simple Simon. My post was a response to his calling me out for misspelling genghis. My misspelling was actually due to auto correct "fixing" it.

Mark Medlin

[T206Collector]

Please explain to me how it is detrimental when anyone can just skip it.

These threads - like threads about religion and politics - reduce people to their lowest common denominators. They predictably spawn hate and vitriol. They do nothing to advance the hobby. It's like animal porn - sure you could skip a thread titled "Monkeys f**g" - but the very existence of it on the board is like the graffiti on the walls of my train station in the morning. Hard not notice and always disappointing.

The reason any of us has a voice here is because of our collective interest in vintage baseball. To use that voice to spout ignorance and stupidity - or even intelligence - about anything else is a misuse of the board. By all means, carry on making the board a better place for collectors of vintage baseball cards. If you're posting about anything else kindly take it somewhere else. I submit that the reason people keep it here is because if they posted it anywhere else then no one would listen.

Why this thread - or it's sister - hasn't been locked is astounding to me, and frankly inconsistent with the historic basis for shutting many other useless threads down.

Carry on making the hobby a better place. You're all doing a terrific job here and should be really proud.

[Joshchisox08]

,

[tiger8mush]

on a pre-war note, I just noticed while documenting a few T206s that one has a stamp on the back "MO MEAT".

Anyone ever seen one with that stamp on it? I'll try to take a scan in a few days.

[Kenny Cole]

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

You forgot Ike. He sent US "advisors" to the French, and later to Vietnamese President Diem, in the mid-to late '50s. My stepdad was one of them. He went to Vietnam in 1957. He was a MAC pilot and wing commander. He broke his back in an air to air crash in 1959 that I don't understand and he doesn't talk about, although my older step brother told me that there was some issue about him being too big for the plane he was flying at the time. He went back in 1962. He has absolutely nothing good to say about our involvement or the decisions we made while there.

It's easy to put today's spin on all that stuff. But I don't see how you can have any real perspective about it unless you were there. I am also sure that there were just about as many perspectives, every one of which was valid to the person who had it, as there were people who were involved. Ultimately, I choose to believe that people who followed the dictates of their conscience, whatever way that decision led them, did the right thing. Others may differ and that's OK. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

[T206Collector]

on a pre-war note, I just noticed while documenting a few T206s that one has a stamp on the back "MO MEAT".

Anyone ever seen one with that stamp on it? I'll try to take a scan in a few days.

No, but I once flipped through a stack of 1979 Topps cards to find one with a staple through the eyes and the name crossed out and replaced with the name "Dick Meat". #truestory

[Peter_Spaeth]

These threads - like threads about religion and politics - reduce people to their lowest common denominators. They predictably spawn hate and vitriol. They do nothing to advance the hobby. It's like animal porn - sure you could skip a thread titled "Monkeys fucking" - but the very existence of it on the board is like the graffiti on the walls of my train station in the morning. Hard not notice and always disappointing.

The reason any of us has a voice here is because of our collective interest in vintage baseball. To use that voice to spout ignorance and stupidity - or even intelligence - about anything else is a misuse of the board. By all means, carry on making the board a better place for collectors of vintage baseball cards. If you're posting about anything else kindly take it somewhere else. I submit that the reason people keep it here is because if they posted it anywhere else then no one would listen.

Why this thread - or it's sister - hasn't been locked is astounding to me, and frankly inconsistent with the historic basis for shutting many other useless threads down.

Carry on making the hobby a better place. You're all doing a terrific job here and should be really proud.

When you own the board, Paul, you can make the rules as well as pronouncements about what is misuse or isn't. Until then, maybe you should just not read threads that don't appeal to your interest. And nice f-bomb.

[T206Collector]

When you own the board, Paul, you can make the rules as well as pronouncements about what is misuse or isn't. Until then, maybe you should just not read threads that don't appeal to your interest. And nice f-bomb.

Thanks. I love your Buzz Lightyear avatar. Toy Story is one of my favorite movies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks. I love your Buzz Lightyear avatar. Toy Story is one of my favorite movies.

LOL thanks I am surprised nobody else commented. A tribute of course to the to infinity and beyond prices we are seeing these days.

[Leon]

When you own the board, Paul, you can make the rules as well as pronouncements about what is misuse or isn't. Until then, maybe you should just not read threads that don't appeal to your interest. And nice f-bomb.

thanks, f bomb taken care of...

..Paul (and everyone else), no F bombs please.

[HRBAKER]

Threads like this make me miss Bruce. Just imagine.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160608/fd2d8b3231eabb66ba5bf1e851e4cf20.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[clydepepper]

Leon - This will be my last addition to this particular thread...and I do hope that you will consider locking it afterwards.

I just wanted to make a point about why I felt compelled to voice my opinions with regards to Mr. Ali.

Being born and raised in the Deep South, I have had to endure many stereotypes from other regions of the country that are assigned to me based on both my race (white) and my locale (Georgia).

Today's global economy makes for a very mobile populous, but I've stayed in the very close vicinity all my life. While I am still in the census majority, I was raised by a very good woman who instilled in me the correct set of values and common sense. She also taught me and my brother the value of seeing the bigger picture and making every attempt to be fair and just with everyone.

Now, Mom was a Dixie Democrat, but my brother have not gone that far. Instead we are both Republicans though we carry just enough of a liberal 'touch' to focus on the afore-mentioned bigger picture.

I watched as Mr. Clay transitioned into Mr. Ali, made note of most public statements he made and then saw him morph / mellow / mature into a very brave public personality who was not afraid to stand behind everything he said.

In a person's life, it is absolutely unfair to judge them before they have walked on this earth long enough to at least have a chance to reconstruct both their thinking and their actions.

God, Buddha, Ala...or any form worth worshiping, forgives and accepts the final product.

In this, I just wanted to let everyone on the forum know that I am not now nor was I ever one of the stereotypical southerners so many folks look down upon (and rightfully so).

All that being said - and thank you if you have read the entire 'novella' - I return you to your normal Bat Channel.

Thanks,
Raymond Culpepper

[Kenny Cole]

Threads like this make me miss Bruce. Just imagine.

Lol, if you ever got some of the Brucii's pms or emails when he was displeased with you, hoping that your family would die horribly in a fire or your wife would be gang-raped, wonderful stuff like that, I'm not sure there is anything that could ever make you miss him. He remains the one exception to the rule I try (and occasionally fail) to follow about not saying anything bad about the dead.

[timn1]

Killer comment- not that the toads on this board will get it, but they don't get much....

I was admittedly pretty young when the Vietnam War was going on, but I don't remember there ever being a threat of the US being invaded from the North Vietnamese. Or the North Koreans during the Korean War for that matter. It was of some concern during WWII, but that's the only war I can think of since the War of 1812 where being invaded by a foreign nation was an issue. Historically, we have generally gone to war to protect other interests, most often economic ones.

Oh, just in case you forgot, we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled out and left South Vietnam to a fate we either could not or chose not to prevent. My step dad was an Air Force officer who spent several years over there in the early days of our involvement. To this day, he still doesn't understand what we were doing because he damn sure doesn't think we were trying very hard to win the war. But even though we lost, we still speak American English, play organized sports, have access to the internet, and even have the ability to post dumbass remarks on this forum from time to time.

[tjb1952tjb]

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C
+1

[FourStrikes]

...

[Leon]

...

I think that was a good post for the end of this thread. Back to cards...