View Full Version : Signed T206: Was Rube Marquard's Wife Signing For Him?
Hoping to elicit some discussion on this one. For about a year and a half, I have been operating under the assumption that there is a possibility that Rube Marquard's wife was ghost signing for him towards the end of his life. I personally collect T206 player autographs, and I like Marquard, so always took interest in him. When first looking over all of the signed T206 cards that existed of him, a couple jumped out as just not looking at all like the others, I initially dismissed it as being signed at different eras, but to me the handwriting just didn't seem the same.
Last year, I had initially made the decision to purchase a signed T205 Marquard. I loved the idea of the card because I hadn't seen him on a T205, and I was buying it directly from the collector who mailed it to him to be signed in the late 1970's. Upon further review, it looked like a couple of the other signed T206's that had bothered me. We investigated further, the collector had also sent Marquard index cards to be signed at the same time. The index that was sent back along with the cards is vastly different (I have included it in the photos below, next to the T205). I suppose it could have been presigned long in advance to send for mail requests (I have heard this theory before, and someone once said they received one quite awhile after he had passed).
The ones I am bothered by are those that have the straight up and down "stick" to form the "R" in Rube. Every other autograph you find of Marquard, whether it's on an index, photo, ball, and most T206 are made with a circular one stroke motion. Even some of the signed T206's that look very labored have this circular start, but the two notated ones and the T205 do not. The bottom right on the b is also very tight and much different than usual, and the slant looks very dissimilar. The finish to his name with the flourish under the d is nothing the same and looks forced, in the T205 it isn't present at all. Notice also start of the R underneath that was left and a second attempt was made above (something that may have happened when you are not used to signing a card, Marquard it seems usually finished his signature if there wasn't enough space by wrapping around if necessary). Lastly, I am including an example of both Rube and his wife's handwriting for comparisons sake.
Hoping to hear some thoughts on this or if others have examples they may be willing to share. Perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree on this but it has been on my mind enough over the past year that I figure it's time to ask others.
perezfan
05-10-2016, 10:17 AM
Great research, and I bet you're correct. The differences are very distinct.
His wife also seems to draw the "q" with a longer tail than Rube. Two distinctly different styles.... Has this been discussed before, or did you discover this this yourself?
Great post!
Great research, and I bet you're correct. The differences are very distinct.
His wife also seems to draw the "q" with a longer tail than Rube. Two distinctly different styles.... Has this been discussed before, or did you discover this this yourself?
Great post!
Mark, thank you for the compliment. To my knowledge, this has not been discussed before (except by myself with a couple folks offline, whose opinion I respect). And yes, you are right about the "q" as well. To be blunt, they really are such different writing styles that many things can be picked out of it. I started by just pointing out the "R" because it's the easiest to notice, but yes it definitely looks to be written by different hands, at least to me.
bender07
05-10-2016, 11:41 AM
Great research, and I bet you're correct. The differences are very distinct.
His wife also seems to draw the "q" with a longer tail than Rube. Two distinctly different styles.... Has this been discussed before, or did you discover this this yourself?
Great post!
Great research is right. Thanks for bringing this to light!
T206Collector
05-10-2016, 12:47 PM
I think there is a decent chance that you are on to something. I certainly don't like first small letter "r" in Marquard in the T205. It is arched, like in his wife's signature. In all of the other ones, that "r" isn't arched at all. But, without a capital letter "R" in Jeannette's hand, it is somewhat premature to conclude wife signed on that basis alone.
One constant in autograph collecting - you can't always explain why a player's signature may change or be different from one item to the next, but it is always a source of great concern to collectors and one of those points of frustration that keeps plenty of people away from collecting signatures as a hobby.
Check out the differences in these three Chief Meyers autos:
What I am really hoping is to find some others who may have written to Marquard and received a reply towards the end of his long life. As mentioned before, I had heard stories of TTM collectors getting a reply after Marquard had passed away with a signed index card included, but no one had examples to share just stories. Wouldn't it be great if someone also had a letter from his wife with more handwriting to analyze? What initially made me think it "could" have been signed by his wife was the way she made the last "d" in Marquard. Almost exactly the same in the T205 and her signature. The signed T206's are a little harder to tell on the "d" because it got so cramped...but have the same "stick" R to start Rube. If anyone has examples of Marquard that they can definitely state are from the late 1970's, or anything at all written by his wife other than the one example of her signature already posted, I would love to see them for research.
7nohitter
05-10-2016, 05:38 PM
Very interesting and a great read! I have a Marquard index card signed, I definitely feel the wife did some signing for him.
theshleps
05-10-2016, 08:34 PM
If you go to Pauls site
http://www.signedt206.com/other-peoples-signed-deadball-cards/
the T205 and CJ marqard (one on the right) are mine and the CJ exhibits the signature of what you say is the wife signing. I am not disagreeing at all. The CJ one always bothered me. Hope you are wrong
T206Collector
05-10-2016, 09:22 PM
Okay, but the D in Marquard on your CJ is consistent with all the others. I think it's fine - would get authenticated by JSA and PSA/DNA and SGC - and is more likely than not his hand.
If you go to Pauls site
http://www.signedt206.com/other-peoples-signed-deadball-cards/
the T205 and CJ marqard (one on the right) are mine and the CJ exhibits the signature of what you say is the wife signing. I am not disagreeing at all. The CJ one always bothered me. Hope you are wrong
Hi Michael, would it be possible to post a larger scan of your CJ (or maybe Paul has one)? It is hard to see from the smaller size on the link. I would love to see it clearly. And I just want be to clear that I am NOT definitively saying that I think Marquard's wife (or someone) signed these ones with the "stick" R at the start, it's a theory I have been looking into for over a year now and what better place to discuss it... and perhaps prove, disprove, or just learn more about his autograph as it may not be something that can be definitive either way without much more compelling evidence. What I do feel strongly about is the T205 I posted above and the index card came back in the mail at the same time from the same autograph request, and to me they are clearly not in the same hand, medium aside. I find it fascinating and it's a subject I will continue to have interest in. I hit a dry spell in research and figured it was time to ask others to take a look at what I found so far and see what else is out there.
7nohitter
05-11-2016, 03:39 AM
Look at the 'M' in the last name. The signatures with the "stick" R have the exact same M as the wife's signature on other documents. Rube's 'M' looks completely different and in my opinion does not match the M's on the stick R signatures.
theshleps
05-11-2016, 08:23 AM
230796
is this good enough? otherwise I have to go to the vault. opinions?
Republicaninmass
05-11-2016, 08:34 AM
Does anyone think after 40 years of signing t206s, that Rube didn't know the length of his own name? I'd think any that are not signed on the same plane are wife signed, which has been almost 100% of the examplars with the straight R
Here's an example of what I would presume is probably near the end of Rube's long life. Note that he still makes an attempt at making the first "R" all in one circular motion, and connects the R to the u fluidly without lifting the pen. And then there's the M...
I was a notary for ten years and have witnessed more signatures than most would in ten lifetimes. Sometimes I notarized the same document every month for the same person for many years. Their signature would change over time, that's is a fact known to all of us, it happens with our own name. But, one thing that always seemed to be a constant and amazed me was how it started, and to some degree how it ended. The middle changed all the time, letters shortened, letters omitted, form falls off, even slant may change some, but they would pretty much always start it the same way for the first letter or two.
7nohitter
05-11-2016, 09:32 AM
230796
is this good enough? otherwise I have to go to the vault. opinions?
In my opinion, this is the wife...look at the M, The stick R and the q.
Here is one other example of a "Stick R" style Marquard and the same card signed with what I would consider his normal signature. Again, I have yet to see the "Stick R" style on anything but a card. This is a good comparison reference because these TCMA cards weren't out on the market until later in 1974 I believe, so we are looking at roughly only a five or six year window that both could be signed. To me, again, these clearly do not appear to be in the same hand.
T206Collector
05-11-2016, 10:57 AM
How about how he changed the "P" to start "Phone" and "Pikesville"?
How about how he changed the "P" to start "Phone" and "Pikesville"?
Interesting, thanks for taking the time to post that. It's hard to see for certain but it still looks like it was completed with one fluid stroke (up and down vs circular), and no lifting of the pen for the top.
Paul you have probably looked at more signed Marquard cards than anyone out there I so certainly respect your opinion and I really appreciate the active discussion on this one. What are your thoughts (I would love to hear from some of the other autograph pros on here if they are willing to weigh in as well regarding these) on the two TCMA cards I posted above, that certainly had to be signed pretty close from a time perspective. Do they look like they are in the same hand? To me, they don't at all. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see because I have been positing this for over a year now, but they just look completely different to me and not something that can be explained away with a letter change or medium...everything looks different. I stick with pointing out the "R" but really it's everything about it.
chaddurbin
05-11-2016, 12:19 PM
fantastic jeff! just lots of stop and start with the "wife" variation. i put the CJ marquard squarely in that lot. and just because psa/jsa authenticates it doesn't mean it's real. i think you should forward this info to orlando and spence and see what they have to say.
this is what this board is about, not the other 95% useless banter.
T206Collector
05-11-2016, 03:57 PM
What are your thoughts ... on the two TCMA cards I posted above, that certainly had to be signed pretty close from a time perspective. Do they look like they are in the same hand?
A couple of things -- even though my CJ Marquard looks like the more traditional sig (image attached), and 2/3 of my T206 Marquards also look more traditional -- I do think the TCMA Marquards are both signed by him (however, I do not like the sig on the T205 you posted earlier).
I believe Rube often liked to sign his last name in pieces:
M - ar- qu -ard
And I believe the tail at the end of the "d" is a routine signal.
Both TCMAs have those features, albeit the "q" in the left pic looks like it may be a standalone.
The little flair to start the "M" doesn't bother me, and seems fairly common in a lot of his signatures.
The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.
Ultimately, I would obviously trust a traditional signature more than a non-traditional signature in any context. But, I would still be a strong buyer for the non-traditional signed CJ, as I'm guessing would a significant audience!
Finally, I just want to add that I have submitted dozens of signed T206 cards to JSA and SGC over the past 10 years. There are a few Harry Coveleski signed T206s floating around, some of which were part of the Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206s in 2007 -- very good provenance. These are always rejected by the authenticators as "secretarial." So, it's not like they aren't adept at ferreting out secretarial signatures. And it's also not like they aren't aware of the huge difference in the "Rs" that we've pointed out. For some reason, they have concluded authentic. It doesn't mean they're right, or that they didn't catch it for some reason. But, I also think it would be easy to take the safe route and reject these - and yet they don't.
A couple of things -- even though my CJ Marquard looks like the more traditional sig (image attached), and 2/3 of my T206 Marquards also look more traditional -- I do think the TCMA Marquards are both signed by him (however, I do not like the sig on the T205 you posted earlier).
I believe Rube often liked to sign his last name in pieces:
M - ar- qu -ard
And I believe the tail at the end of the "d" is a routine signal.
Both TCMAs have those features, albeit the "q" in the left pic looks like it may be a standalone.
The little flair to start the "M" doesn't bother me, and seems fairly common in a lot of his signatures.
The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.
Ultimately, I would obviously trust a traditional signature more than a non-traditional signature in any context. But, I would still be a strong buyer for the non-traditional signed CJ, as I'm guessing would a significant audience!
Thanks for the detailed write up Paul. See, to me, the tail finish on the "d" in Marquard is really different and another tell between the ones I am theorizing to be ghost signed and the ones I think Marquard signed. The T205 w/o the underline finish at the end is obvious of course, but the other three, (the two t206's, Michael's CJ, and the TCMA), finish the "d" at the bottom, and then flare left. To my eyes, all of the other Marquards pretty much finish the "d" at the middle, or at the top even, then flare left. Again, to my eyes they just don't look the same at all. We may have to just agree to disagree on this topic, which is okay to me, and I can appreciate your view as you must have spent considerable time looking at this signature over the years. I posted this to get others opinions because I haven't been able to move any further with the research. I have even thought about trying to contact Marquard's relatives to see if they have any writing examples of Jeannette (Jane), as that would be very helpful.
T206Collector
05-11-2016, 04:11 PM
I hesitate to say I disagree with you. I guess I am just saying I would need a little more proof of Jeannette's writing or Rube's writing to reject the findings of JSA and SGC on this fairly obvious deviation, especially where they both routinely find secretarial signatures where the signature is much closer to the real thing.
Thanks Paul. I think one of the issues may be that NO ONE ever thought or even heard a rumor of Marquard using a ghost or wife signer through the mail (I did ask a couple of long time dealers as well who had never heard of the possibility). Aside from signed cards, the value was so low on his autograph that it may not have been on anyone's radar. Add to it that we are talking such a small percentage of them with this variation, compared to the literally thousands of examples I have looked at over the last year that all are his typical style. The only ones I found were on signed cards, that's it. So we are talking maybe 1 out of 1000 autographs on the market have this style. I like to picture it, and this is just in my mind, as towards the end of his life, perhaps he pre signed a ton of index cards (I am pretty sure he did this, or maybe signed a bunch on his good days), and these were used for autograph requests. I believe he also sold signed photos for a small amount so those could have been presigned as well. For a small window of time, sometime in the later 1970's probably, if an item showed up for an autograph request that was specific and was included in the letter (like a tobacco card), someone else signed it. If not, he would use the presigned index cards or photos, and the ones he did sign are really pretty bad form wise like the authenticated index card above when his writing was obviously starting to severely decline. I can't ignore the fact that the signed T205 and the index card I originally posted came back at the same time in the same envelope, and I think whoever signed that T205 is also the same style on the four other cards.
The big question to me is the capital "R". I would like to see an example of a letter written by Rube where he used the capital "R" to start a sentence and see how he wrote it. The closest I came when I looked briefly was on the "P" I showed above.
I was able to find one handwritten letter with a capital R, and will post below.
T206Collector
05-11-2016, 04:59 PM
Great find! But, check out the lower case "p's" in this letter. Stick followed by curly thing. Still, you're making a strong case.
Great find! But, check out the lower case "p's" in this letter. Stick followed by curly thing. Still, you're making a strong case.
Thanks! Note that the "p's" that are highlighted still look like one fluid, down and up motion. Not like the "Stick R" on the ones above, where it's just a straight line down, then a new start to cross the R at the top.
T206Collector
05-11-2016, 05:39 PM
Thanks! Note that the "p's" that are highlighted still look like one fluid, down and up motion. Not like the "Stick R" on the ones above, where it's just a straight line down, then a new start to cross the R at the top.
I disagree. These are sticks followed by a new stroke to make the p.
theshleps
05-11-2016, 06:10 PM
I agree with Paul that Jeffs T205 looks off and not necessarily like the wife signed ones. Then again being someone who has collected autographs since the 1960's I myself have a few different ways I sign my name and I know some players who have two different ways to sign. I have for instance had David Newhan sign for me 4 cards at the same time and 2 were with a round curly D and 2 a tall sharp one. I have also spent time with players and seen their wives sign and when my son was a batboy a scrub player wanted Noah to sign his fan mail.
I disagree. These are sticks followed by a new stroke to make the p.
I still think the p's are completed in one stroke, at least to my eyes...but I can't zoom in close enough to show it. Here is a another letter by him written not too far off time wise where you can definitely see he makes his lower case p's in one stroke (I am kind of chuckling to myself and I love it, we have gotten so deep into this we are discussing a lower case letter that isn't even in his signature :-)...rather discuss it with folks here than ever risk trying to bore my wife to death talking about something like this.
7nohitter
05-11-2016, 07:14 PM
Jeff,
I agree; I'm loving this discussion and the items being presented.
btcarfagno
05-12-2016, 07:29 AM
Here is a Marquard letter of mine. Also, regarding Jeff's theory, I think that it is likely spot on, although I had a very tough Marquard signed 1979 Grand Slam card that was somehow authenticated by JSA although it was very much an end of life type of autograph. So there may have been days where he did sign things that were sent to him through the mail instead of just generic 3x5's and photos.
http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy203/collectiblesgains/2016/Marquard%20Letter_zpsaxury01p.jpeg
Tom C
T206Collector
05-12-2016, 08:39 AM
I'm loving this discussion and the items being presented.
Talking about Rube Marquard's signature is probably my favorite thing to do. My signed T206 collection started when I acquired all four signed T206 Marquards that were on ebay over a two week period in 2004. It's been a love affair ever since... :o
earlywynnfan
05-14-2016, 12:08 PM
Sorry to come to this late, but I want to share this ball. Had several friendly emails with some respectable hobby types about this Marquard, and this thread seems to fit nicely. This sig was obtained through the mail in the 70's (it's a 70-73 feeney ball, FWIW.) Our discussions trailed off with all of us questioning the atypical "R" along with the odd "D."
Sorry to come to this late, but I want to share this ball. Had several friendly emails with some respectable hobby types about this Marquard, and this thread seems to fit nicely. This sig was obtained through the mail in the 70's (it's a 70-73 feeney ball, FWIW.) Our discussions trailed off with all of us questioning the atypical "R" along with the odd "D."
Ken, thank you for posting this. Its definitely the same style as the ones I have been researching and I am not surprised it was confirmed as through the mail from that era, and on an item that could not have been pre signed like the index or generic photos that were sent out. Since its been a few days, anyone else who is interested in this topic have thoughts as to which direction I should go next as to further the research on this? Thank you.
chaddurbin
05-14-2016, 03:17 PM
i don't know jeff, seems like you're meeting some resistance. if someone bought a slabbed t206 marquard sticky R for 2-3k would they really want you to further your research to its logical conclusion? the people that could be the most interested probably are also the most invested. not sure they want to know the truth.
objectively i'd like you to get some leads so we'd have a definitive answer, but that might not be feasible.
7nohitter
05-14-2016, 04:07 PM
Would it be possible to obtain a larger sample of confirmed writing from MRS. Marquard?...seems like this would answer many questions.
T206Collector
05-14-2016, 09:37 PM
We will have a definitive answer if we ever see a Marquard letter with the sticky R.
Or an in person sig confirmed with sticky R.
T206Collector
05-14-2016, 09:39 PM
if someone bought a slabbed t206 marquard sticky R for 2-3k would they really want you to further your research to its logical conclusion? the people that could be the most interested probably are also the most invested. not sure they want to know the truth.
I have one of the two - and certainly didn't pay that coin for it. I'd quite like to know the truth!
Sorry to come to this late, but I want to share this ball. Had several friendly emails with some respectable hobby types about this Marquard, and this thread seems to fit nicely. This sig was obtained through the mail in the 70's (it's a 70-73 feeney ball, FWIW.) Our discussions trailed off with all of us questioning the atypical "R" along with the odd "D."
Looking at this ball again on my computer as I was using my phone earlier, look at that M in marquard. How many strokes were used to make it? Is it two, or three starts for that one letter? The middle bottom is area of the M I am referring to. Whoever signed this ball its definitely the same style as the other ones I am theorizing to be wife signed, also a key is the break between the R and the u in Rube and how high up the u starts. Same style in the five others.
WillowGrove
05-22-2016, 01:16 PM
Jeff - really interesting that you have had this hypothesis and have done this research. I can add something but not sure how much it helps.
In 1980 my mother wrote a bunch of HOFers and asked them to send me their autograph for my upcoming 15th Birthday and I got a respsonse from Rube. See photos. He mailed it April 17th and passed away June 1st.
All these years went by and it took SGC to point out to me that the signature on the card was a stamp. You'll note it is the exact 'signature' that is on his HOF card. I did a perfunctory search and couldn't find any other stamps. So that's kind of interesting to me in and of itself.
The paper that says Happy Birthday, seems to have Rube's actual signature. This shows that on this particular date, approximately 6 weeks before passing away, it seems that Rube signed a note from a fan, along with including two stamped items. FYI, my mother mailed out her requests about a week prior to the postmark, so the turnaround time was short.
I found Rube's obituary where it says he died, "after a long illness" as well as a quote from his granddaughter who said, "her grandfather had been receiving round-the-clock nursing care for several months. Mr. Marquard, she said, had cancer and was operated on two years ago."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.obituaries/Bm5mXwhInhM
I reviewed this thread on my phone while traveling a few days ago and didn't review again now, so I don't remember if there were any later examples of his signature - but I wanted to post what I had.
For the record, I wrote Rube a thank you note - after receiving his mail on May 6th. I felt good as a kid taking the time to thank him but of course felt terrible to find out he passed away so soon after.
Good convo all. Thanks again Jeff!
btcarfagno
05-22-2016, 02:08 PM
I found an image of the 1979 Diamond Greats signed Marquard that I sold a year ago.
http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy203/collectiblesgains/Marquard_zps540a0489.jpeg
Tom C
7nohitter
05-22-2016, 04:13 PM
Wow, very rough-but you still see the loop in the R.
Jeff - really interesting that you have had this hypothesis and have done this research. I can add something but not sure how much it helps.
In 1980 my mother wrote a bunch of HOFers and asked them to send me their autograph for my upcoming 15th Birthday and I got a respsonse from Rube. See photos. He mailed it April 17th and passed away June 1st.
All these years went by and it took SGC to point out to me that the signature on the card was a stamp. You'll note it is the exact 'signature' that is on his HOF card. I did a perfunctory search and couldn't find any other stamps. So that's kind of interesting to me in and of itself.
The paper that says Happy Birthday, seems to have Rube's actual signature. This shows that on this particular date, approximately 6 weeks before passing away, it seems that Rube signed a note from a fan, along with including two stamped items. FYI, my mother mailed out her requests about a week prior to the postmark, so the turnaround time was short.
I found Rube's obituary where it says he died, "after a long illness" as well as a quote from his granddaughter who said, "her grandfather had been receiving round-the-clock nursing care for several months. Mr. Marquard, she said, had cancer and was operated on two years ago."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.obituaries/Bm5mXwhInhM
I reviewed this thread on my phone while traveling a few days ago and didn't review again now, so I don't remember if there were any later examples of his signature - but I wanted to post what I had.
For the record, I wrote Rube a thank you note - after receiving his mail on May 6th. I felt good as a kid taking the time to thank him but of course felt terrible to find out he passed away so soon after.
Good convo all. Thanks again Jeff!
Peter, thanks for posting, I really appreciate you taking the time to add what you have, and to include scans. I think it's pretty telling that someone else was working Rube's mail at the time you wrote to him and using that stamp. The little note wishing you a happy birthday clearly is not written by Rube and sure does look an awful lot like the other "Stick" R examples, and definitely looks like the signed T205 I posted and the example of his wife's signature (just look at the "d" finish in Marquard).
And Tom, I think it's also really worth noting, regarding the signed Diamond Greats you posted, that Rube's signature didn't have much left to it at all based on when that was signed (1979 or 1980, but you can STILL see the signature traits you expect), it looks NOTHING like the short note written regarding the Happy Birthday to Peter and would have been signed very close in time based on when that card was made.
I must say that I really was hesitant about creating this post in the first place. I was anxious that I would get bad reactions from some folks, especially those who may have owned one of the examples I was pointing out, but overall I am very happy with the feedback. I hope to continue researching this and would like to invite any others who are reading and haven't posted yet to weigh in, especially those who are in the industry and those who were collecting during Marquard's life and may have other examples they could post. Thanks again.
WillowGrove
05-22-2016, 04:45 PM
Peter, thanks for posting, I really appreciate you taking the time to add what you have, and to include scans. I think it's pretty telling that someone else was working Rube's mail at the time you wrote to him and using that stamp. The little note wishing you a happy birthday clearly is not written by Rube and sure does look an awful lot like the other "Stick" R examples, and definitely looks like the signed T205 I posted and the example of his wife's signature (just look at the "d" finish in Marquard).
And Tom, I think it's also really worth noting, regarding the signed Diamond Greats you posted, that Rube's signature didn't have much left to it at all based on when that was signed (1979 or 1980, but you can STILL see the signature traits you expect), it looks NOTHING like the short note written regarding the Happy Birthday to Peter and would have been signed very close in time based on when that card was made.
I must say that I really was hesitant about creating this post in the first place. I was anxious that I would get bad reactions from some folks, especially those who may have owned one of the examples I was pointing out, but overall I am very happy with the feedback. I hope to continue researching this and would like to invite any others who are reading and haven't posted yet to weigh in, especially those who are in the industry and those who were collecting during Marquard's life and may have other examples they could post. Thanks again.
Oh I see now Jeff. I was assuming the note was Rube because it has the loop and not the stick.
And Tom's post is so interesting., for reasons you stated.
I wonder if we can figure out when Rube stopped signing himself? In other words, was he consistently signing himself until the end or periodically or was there a cut off maybe after his hospital stay? Again, sorry if this was discussed earlier, I haven't re-read.
I'll have to find the signed Rube I acquired more recently to see where it falls.
Interesting stuff here.
Oh I see now Jeff. I was assuming the note was Rube because it has the loop and not the stick.
And Tom's post is so interesting., for reasons you stated.
I wonder if we can figure out when Rube stopped signing himself? In other words, was he consistently signing himself until the end or periodically or was there a cut off maybe after his hospital stay? Again, sorry if this was discussed earlier, I haven't re-read.
I'll have to find the signed Rube I acquired more recently to see where it falls.
Interesting stuff here.
Peter, as far as I know (from the research I have been doing), there has never been any formal thought that someone was signing for Rube. I don't believe anyone has theorized he may have used a ghost signer before. If someone else has been researching this as well I would love to collaborate. It's interesting too that you have proof of a stamp being used at that time. Admittedly I have been focusing on handwriting and haven't specifically been looking for stamps, so I haven't noticed that before either. Regarding the "Happy Birthday" note, it doesn't quite have the same "Stick" in the R as the others but it's very similar in other areas (the start of the "u" in Rube starting separately and so high above the end of the R, not connecting it with the R, and the finish of the "d", among other things. The letters themselves in the "Happy Birthday" part are nothing like his handwriting. Lastly, it would be quite odd indeed for him to stamp the card and HOF plaque but write the short note. By all means, if you have any other Marquard signed items, especially if you can date to when there were signed, please post away. Best, Jeff
WillowGrove
05-22-2016, 05:40 PM
Gotcha Jeff. When I found out my Rube was a stamp after about 35 years, I acquired this one.
Gotcha Jeff. When I found out my Rube was a stamp after about 35 years, I acquired this one.
That one definitely looks spot on! :)
I will go through all of the other examples of Rube's handwriting this week, but just wanted to show really quick how he made his upper case "F"'s, from a letter in 1975. Completely different formation. I will do the other letters from Happy Birthday later this week. I think there is a very strong possibility this Happy Birthday note was written by his wife Jeannette, which would just be fantastic for my research as I have really been hoping someone may have received something written along with an autograph reply from that time period.
btcarfagno
05-22-2016, 07:50 PM
The one in my 1966 letter from him (top of page 4 of this thread) has a capital F exactly like the one in your post here from the 1975 letter. Mine was definitely written by him.
Tom C
Thanks for pointing that out Tom. Just from glancing at more really quick, it appears his capital "F" has does not have the second cross of the F on the left hand side, like a cursive version in the Happy Bday note. The second cross of the F is only on the right had side in his handwritten letters that we know he penned. Definitely not looking like Rube wrote that Happy Birthday note (I think that was already pretty obvious though just from a cursory look), but excited to work on the other parts of the note as well and compare.
WillowGrove
05-22-2016, 08:25 PM
Cool, I'm happy my little note helped.
btcarfagno
05-23-2016, 08:23 AM
Here's another little monkey wrench to throw into the mix. Could the birthday note have been written by his caregiver and not his wife?
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Tom C
Wrightfan85
06-02-2016, 04:19 PM
I'll contribute. Here's my late era Marquard I bought from Richard Simon years back. It definitely does not appeared to be stamped and shows an infirmed hand:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/Wrightfan/Baseball%20Hall%20of%20Fame%20Plaques/Rube%20Marquard.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wrightfan/media/Baseball%20Hall%20of%20Fame%20Plaques/Rube%20Marquard.jpg.html)