Another T206 Wagner "? AUTHTCT"

[Edwolf1963]

Latest one ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/t206-honus-wagner-sweet-caporal-card-tarnished-/252385562964?hash=item3ac35a1154:g:spAAAOSwWntXMm7 9


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-BROADLEAF-CIGARETTES-HONUS-WAGNER-/262402036388?hash=item3d186152a4:g:wSUAAOSwXj5XG5I z

Shocking feedback on the last one .. (-1) now ..

case and card in photo does not match item. p***t ( 376Teal star icon for feedback score in between 100 to 499) During past month
Reply by chartso5 (May-03-16 16:25):
Horrible Buyer, Item was as described. Refunded as well. Inconsiderate.
1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER (#262402036388) US $82.07 View Item

[Joshwesley]

Gotta admit.... They did a good job with the slab.
Lol

[Pilot172000]

Ran the Cert # just for fun and it isn't even in the data base.

[swarmee]

It's probably not a fake PSA tag; it says Questionable Authenticity. I'm not sure they technically label anything fake.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity? The flip is absolutely real. And shame in PSA for even labelling it as questionable (as if there is a chance) authenticity.

[swarmee]

I wonder how much he had to pay ($700) to learn that there isn't a Broad Leaf Wagner...

[Edwolf1963]

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity?

Hmmm, didn't know that. I looked up the flip # as well and it came back unknown, so thought something was amiss. If it's known there wasn't a T206 Wagner w/BroadLeaf back (or so I would gather from others feedback), why wouldn't PSA note it as a reprint/fake then? Instead of questionable authenticity.

[njdunkin1]

I saw this as well, at first I thought there was a chance. After a close look, though, you can easily see the extra bright color and signs of a reprint. Yikes!

[Pilot172000]

Finding a real Broadleaf Wagner would be like finding survivors from the Titanic on a life boat off the coast of Greenland..... Last Wednesday

[53Browns]

I have implicit trust in his "zero" feedback.

[nat]

Who is it, exactly, that buys this junk? Is there actually someone who thinks that they can scoop up a T206 Wagner for $34 on eBay? And if the people bidding on this do think it's real, why on Earth did 23 of them get topped by a $34 bid? And if they know it's fake, why did they bid at all?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Who is it, exactly, that buys this junk? Is there actually someone who thinks that they can scoop up a T206 Wagner for $34 on eBay? And if the people bidding on this do think it's real, why on Earth did 23 of them get topped by a $34 bid? And if they know it's fake, why did they bid at all?

Again, PSA has to share some of the blame too. The word questionable leaves room for hope. It should not be labeled as questionable authenticity.

This scam has actually been discussed here before. Submitter sends fake cards to PSA knowing they will come back as questionable authenticity. Then, lists them on eBay with a pic of the flip hoping to reel in a sucker with the hopes that it might be real.

[iowadoc77]

Easy to see why people fall for this.
Unfortunate
But easy

[MetsBaseball1973]

Again, PSA has to share some of the blame too. The word questionable leaves room for hope. It should not be labeled as questionable authenticity.

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

[pokerplyr80]

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

I disagree. It is true that anyone buying a card like this is an idiot. But if the card is fake that is what the flip should say. Not questionable authenticity. PSA should realize how stupid people are and that some of them are falling for this scam.

[begsu1013]

psa's fault?

please.

1. it says ? authen.
2. it's not holdered.
3. the cert isn't verifiable.
4. just an opinion anyways.

if you need more than that, let me show you this oceanfront compound in arizona for a steal.

the post office says no such address found, it doesn't have a pin number, walls or even a roof....

but there is a sign in the yard that says "? ocean front" in the picture.

a fool and his money...

[pokerplyr80]

psa's fault?

please.

1. it says ? authen.
2. it's not holdered.
3. the cert isn't verifiable.
4. just an opinion anyways.

if you need more than that, let me show you this oceanfront compound in arizona for a steal.

the post office says no such address found, it doesn't have a pin number, walls or even a roof....

but there is a sign in the yard that says "? ocean front" in the picture.

a fool and his money...

It's not their fault, but in my opinion they could and should do something to stop it. If it's fake just say so. The question mark leaves a little doubt in the minds of people who don't know better. I agree these fools will probably end up wasting their money elsewhere but this is preventable.

[Joshchisox08]

Gotta admit.... They did a good job with the slab.
Lol

Seriously this is scary shit right here. WHY is this still listed? And so much for the little hologram making things more safe.

[Joshchisox08]

Hmmm, didn't know that. I looked up the flip # as well and it came back unknown, so thought something was amiss. If it's known there wasn't a T206 Wagner w/BroadLeaf back (or so I would gather from others feedback), why wouldn't PSA note it as a reprint/fake then? Instead of questionable authenticity.

Good question I might add a note that nobody has touched base on yet. Not only is there no Broad Leaf Wagner.

The series the Wagner was printed didn't even print Broad Leaf! :mad:



These are it

Piedmont 150
Sweet Caporal 150/25
Sweet Caporal 150/30

[bnorth]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the listing. There is no BS story saying it could be real. It is a hell of a lot better than someone listing a card as ExMint or NrMint when the card is in a Authentic holder, to me that is trying to deceive someone.

[Bored5000]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the listing. There is no BS story saying it could be real. It is a hell of a lot better than someone listing a card as ExMint or NrMint when the card is in a Authentic holder, to me that is trying to deceive someone.

What part of the auction title "1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER" should be taken as not "saying it could be real?" The word "reprint" is not listed anywhere in the auction, but that's not a sketchy attempt to get people to think the card is real?

Edd*e Sm*th

[bnorth]

What part of the auction title "1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER" should be taken as not "saying it could be real?" The word "reprint" is not listed anywhere in the auction, but that's not a sketchy attempt to get people to think the card is real?

Edd*e Sm*th

For me it is the clearly pictured PSA flip showing it is a reprint. ?authentic=reprint/counterfeit

[vintagetoppsguy]

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

What part of the authenticity do you think was questionable to PSA? Was it the card stock? The font? The ink? The fact that there's no way the Wagner could have been printed with a Broad Leaf back?

Or do you think they should have labeled it what it actually is (a reprint)?

The fact that they refuse to label it for what it is makes them somewhat responsible for this.

[Joshchisox08]

What part of the authenticity do you think was questionable to PSA? Was it the card stock? The font? The ink? The fact that there's no way the Wagner could have been printed with a Broad Leaf back?

Or do you think they should have labeled it what it actually is (a reprint)?

The fact that they refuse to label it for what it is makes them somewhat responsible for this.

+1 that and the fact that the seller is going to more than likely get a pretty penny for this card.

[nat]

PSA could holder these things and label them "2016 Dover Reprints" or something.

On the other hand, maybe they just call them "questionable" out of an abundance of caution. Art authenticators get sued so often for determining that a work isn't original that some of them are shutting down. See http://fortune.com/2015/09/24/art-fakes-lawsuits

[ZachS]

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity? The flip is absolutely real. And shame in PSA for even labelling it as questionable (as if there is a chance) authenticity.

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4335363/image.0.png

[Joshchisox08]

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4335363/image.0.png

More like one out of a million :rolleyes:

[begsu1013]

the reason psa labels it "? authen" is due to liability.

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

"? oceanfront" in arizona.

[ullmandds]

the reason psa labels it "? authen" is due to liability.

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

"? oceanfront" in arizona.

but that makes no sense as it's impossible for this wagner to be real. Does PSA not know this?

[begsu1013]

it makes perfect sense and saves them even more cents!

i am sure they know this, but am even more confident that they aren't gonna change their entire computer and logging system over the fact that someone submitted a card that isn't even fathomable.

your reply doesn't make any sense, personally.

edit: and it is possible for that wagner to be real...had it been submitted for what it was. a "2016 dover blah, blah, blah"
in this case it was submitted for something it's not, which is why it looks the way it does, it didn't get holdered and the flip states what it is...a card of questionable authenticity.

[begsu1013]

and furthermore, shame on you for making me defend psa!!!

i do not like this. ;)

[Pilot172000]

It actually makes perfect sense. PSA makes its money authenticating real cards, not finding fake ones. Its much easier and with zero liability to say exactly what they put on the flip when they refuse to authenticate it. PSA has had to pay money to folks for authenticating fakes (it happens), but that is the cost of doing business. There is zero profit and a ton of liability in identifying fakes.

[vintagetoppsguy]

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.

There is zero profit and a ton of liability in identifying fakes.

Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

[ullmandds]

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.



Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

yup...totally agree

[Pilot172000]

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.



Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

I disagree. They charge the fee for their time. They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails. Why risk it? Second, I don't charge for my opinion and I am not liable by law to give him an absolutely correct answer. PSA is and won't put the company in a bind when it doesn't have to

[ullmandds]

I disagree. They charge the fee for their time. They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails. Why risk it? Second, I don't charge for my opinion and I am not liable by law to give him an absolutely correct answer. PSA is and won't put the company in a bind when it doesn't have to

whatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

[Pilot172000]

:rolleyes:lwhatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

As a banker, when I decide against a loan, I never tell the client that there is zero chance anyone will give them a loan no matter how bad their situation is. I simply state that I won't give them the loan. PSA is simply stating that they will not authenticate that card. Whose to say some crack pot basement grading service won't authenticate it??

[vintagetoppsguy]

They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails.

Let's turn your statement around. If they cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed, then how do they know when a card is authentic in order to assign it a numeric grade?

Do you not see how ridiculous your statement sounds?

Once again, from PSAs website, ""Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

[ullmandds]

:rolleyes:l

As a banker, when I decide against a loan, I never tell the client that there is zero chance anyone will give them a loan no matter how bad their situation is. I simply state that I won't give them the loan. PSA is simply stating that they will not authenticate that card. Whose to say some crack pot basement grading service won't authenticate it??

Well then I guess our perspectives are quite different!

When a patient is in my chair and they have some retained roots from a molar that broke decades ago and are concerned about saving the tooth...I have no qualms telling them there is ZERO chance the tooth can be saved. I am confident in my knowledge and abilities and I live in reality!

[bnorth]

whatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

C'mon Pete they can't even tell if a card is miscut or not and get it right.;):)

[Pilot172000]

Actually it makes perfect sense. They base their company on the authentication of real products and accept all the liability that it entails.

[Pilot172000]

Well then I guess our perspectives are quite different!

When a patient is in my chair and they have some retained roots from a molar that broke decades ago and are concerned about saving the tooth...I have no qualms telling them there is ZERO chance the tooth can be saved. I am confident in my knowledge and abilities and I live in reality!

You and I know that most card collectors don't live in reality! JK.

Do you have malpractice insurance? Of course!! Are you going to take a chance when you don't have too? Of course not!

[ullmandds]

You and I know that most card collectors don't live in reality! JK.

Do you have malpractice insurance? Of course!! Are you going to take a chance when you don't have too? Of course not!

Ok...But where is the iota of a chance this card could be real here?

[vintagetoppsguy]

As a banker...?

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

[ullmandds]

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

good example!

[Pilot172000]

Ok...But where is the iota of a chance this card could be real here?

Not a chance.

[ullmandds]

Not a chance.

ok...so where is the risk to precious PSA.

[Pilot172000]

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

You are now comparing apples and oranges. Making fake bills is a Federal Felony and punishable by law. I am obligated to the FDIC to confiscate them. Making fake cards is not a felony and no matter how unethical, there is no obligation to confiscate or call the police.

[Pilot172000]

ok...so where is the risk to precious PSA.

Its blanket risk and more than likely a blanket policy for PSA when it comes to fake cards. You are assuming that all cards they refuse to authenticate are this cut and dry. For those of us dedicated enough to post online day in and day out about cardboard photographs of dead people we never actually met, its very obvious that these cards are fake. There must be some kind of market for them, since 90% of what you see when you type Broadleaf into the search box on ebay is fake.

[ullmandds]

Its blanket risk and more than likely a blanket policy for PSA when it comes to fake cards. You are assuming that all cards they refuse to authenticate are this cut and dry. For those of us dedicated enough to post online day in and day out about cardboard photographs of dead people we never actually met, its very obvious that these cards are fake. There must be some kind of market for them, since 90% of what you see when you type Broadleaf into the search box on ebay is fake.

No...I am NOT assuming all cards are this cut and dry. I understand some fakes are very good...and I was duped by that cy young on ebay a week or 2 ago. BUT...when the situation IS this cut and dry...I believe they should be more decisive as the route they take by saying questionable authenticity opens the doors for suspect future activity.

Is this acceptable behavior from the foremost card authenticator on the planet?

[vintagetoppsguy]

You are now comparing apples and oranges. Making fake bills is a Federal Felony and punishable by law. I am obligated to the FDIC to confiscate them. Making fake cards is not a felony and no matter how unethical, there is no obligation to confiscate or call the police.

You're either just not getting it or you're trying to deflect the issue. We're not talking about the production of counterfeit bills or cards. We're talking about detecting such.

The point I was going to make is, how can you detect counterfeit bills, but PSA can't detect counterfeit cards?

Edited to add: And one last question and I think I will have proven my point. Would you ever deem a bill as "questionable authenticity" or would you categorically say it's either real or it's not?

[Pilot172000]

You're either just not getting it or you're trying to deflect the issue. We're not talking about the production of counterfeit bills or cards. We're talking about detecting such.

The point I was going to make is, how can you detect counterfeit bills, but PSA can't detect counterfeit cards?

To be perfectly honest, you don't get it....

PSA is not in the business of detecting fakes. They are in the business of authenticating real ones. So far you have called me wrong, mocked my profession and accused me of "not getting it" Try to be a little more civil. I am not calling you wrong, I am telling you I disagree with you and I understand why PSA is doing it that way.

[vintagetoppsguy]

To be perfectly honest, you don't get it....

PSA is not in the business of detecting fakes. They are in the business of authenticating real ones. So far you have called me wrong, mocked my profession and accused me of "not getting it" Try to be a little more civil. I am not calling you wrong, I am telling you I disagree with you and I understand why PSA is doing it that way.

Yes, they are in the business of detecting fakes. If they can't detect fakes, then how can they grade a real card? That's like saying you're not in the business of detecting fake currency. Yes, that is part of what you do. PSA is an authentication company. Part of authenticating is determining which are fakes, which are not.

And yes, you were wrong. You inferred that PSA didn't make any money be determining a card as questionable authenticity. They still charge to grade the card whether it is deemed to be real or not.

I've been civil with you. Now, you're just being ridiculous.

[begsu1013]

i cant even tell who's on first anymore...

(reminds me of the snl skit w/ will ferrell playing harry carray and comparing nickels to hotdogs, depending on the strength of the yen)




.

[Pilot172000]

Yes, they are in the business of detecting fakes. If they can't detect fakes, then how can they grade a real card? That's like saying you're not in the business of detecting fake currency. Yes, that is part of what you do. PSA is an authentication company. Part of authenticating is determining which are fakes, which are not.

And yes, you were wrong. You inferred that PSA didn't make any money be determining a card as questionable authenticity. They still charge to grade the card whether it is deemed to be real or not.

I've been civil with you. Now, you're just being ridiculous.


You are ridiculous to believe that any corporation or company is going to take on added liability to establish something as an outright fake when they don't have to. You are also wrong to assume that people pay money to PSA to tell them if a card is fake. They pay them to tell them that if its real and if its not in the opinion of PSA, they tell them that they won't grade it because they question its authenticity. You don't like the fact that PSA doesn't state in black and white that "Its a fake and you are stupid for sending it to us"

You aren't being civil don't kid yourself. We are talking about something so arbitrary as the wording on a sticker that PSA attaches to a fake card. The whole world is filled with "they oughta's". Our opinions of their policy and business model has no effect on their bottom line. I would wager that some attorney somewhere told them to word it exactly that way as to not take on unneeded liability.

[Pilot172000]

i cant even tell who's on first anymore...

(reminds me of the snl skit w/ will ferrell playing harry carray and comparing nickels to hotdogs, depending on the strength of the yen)




.

+1

[Pat R]

From PSA website

[ullmandds]

From PSA website

thats referring to pins and coins.

[Pilot172000]

From PSA website

Microphone Drop...JK

[Pilot172000]

thats referring to pins and coins.

I don't think it is. Thats page five of a thirteen page document with the first five pages being about the card grades and qualifiers.

[ullmandds]

So why doesn't PSA say on the flip...counterfeit?

[ullmandds]

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

[Pilot172000]

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

You are correct.

[begsu1013]

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

[Pilot172000]

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

Chicken dinner.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter, you are wasting your time. PSA can't tell the difference between Karl Malden and Karl Malone, so how could we possibly expect them to tell the difference between a fake Broad Leaf Wagner and a real one?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

Yet people still continue to defend them :confused:

[ullmandds]

and in more than just the way you intended, ullman

it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument.

everyone's a winner.

not true...PSA is being deceptive to its customers who buy PSA cards on the secondary market...by saying Questionable Authenticity on their flips...when the reality is if you refer to their guidelines to decipher the actual meaning of this as "fake!"

So ultimately if everyone had the same information...it wouldn't matter...but this is not the case.

Whatever...it's done for me.

[begsu1013]

david,

you may be the king of bringing in facts that have nothing to do w the original thread and twisting the heck outta it until the original convo isnt even recognizable anymore...so, now we are on psa/dna, huh?

i will take 2 pretzels, please.

[Joshchisox08]

i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.

+1 god forbid they loose a few here and there.

[begsu1013]

"ok, so 3 x 3 does equal 9 but everyone knows 2 + 2 is 4, correct?"

[Pilot172000]

Peter, you are wasting your time. PSA can't tell the difference between Karl Malden and Karl Malone, so how could we possibly expect them to tell the difference between a fake Broad Leaf Wagner and a real one?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

Yet people still continue to defend them :confused:

I personally trust PSA with the authentication and grading of my stuff. I feel the same way about SGC and Beckett. I know that these companies will refund my money if their authenticated card is proven to be a fake. We have seen high profile cases of such. I wasn't defending them for those reasons. I was stating why they do the fake cards the way they do them. There has never been any question as to the authenticity of the card. We all knew it was crap and just disagreed with how PSA handled it being crap.

[vintagetoppsguy]

david,

you may be the king of bringing in facts that have nothing to do w the original thread and twisting the heck outta it until the original convo isnt even recognizable anymore...so, now we are on psa/dna, huh?

i will take 2 pretzels, please.

Comprehension isn't your thing, is it Bob?

PSA and PSA/DNA are still the same company basically. I guess I could have used a card as an example. Would that make you feel better?

[begsu1013]

key words in your statement "and", "basically".

seems i might be a lil more keen to what comprehension means than thou.

commence to twisting...

[glynparson]

From what I have been told the wording is at advice from their council. I know there are things I do that I THIK ARE DUMB BUT I DO THEM BECAUSE MY LAWYER HAS ADVISED ME TO DO IT THAT WAY. Sorry bumped caps lock too lazy to retype. Do you do nothing or have your patients do something you think is dumb at advice of your lawyers. Thats all this is, plenty to go after PSA for but when you go after them about every little thing you begin to sound petty and get tuned out on the big stuff.

[steve B]

PSA could handle fake cards more clearly.

To say that no company would take on the liability of being wrong about a fake is silly, since that's exactly what expertizers - the equivalent of grading companies for stamps - do regularly.

If I send in a stamp I've identified as an rare expensive one, and I'm wrong, they send it back with a certificate describing it as what it actually is.

Their pricing is a minimum, or a percentage of the catalog value. If I think it's one worth say 100 thousand, and it's not, they only charge the minimum or the price for what it is.

If I send in an outright fake whether it was made by a famous forger, or by me just before sending it in, it comes back with a cert saying it's a fake. I think in the case of one done by someone famous like Sperati or Fournier, they state that as well.

Altered stamps are described as altered, usually with the alteration described, so you get an indication if the alteration is a repair, which in some cases is ok but worth a lot less, or an alteration that's likely fraudulent. (Adding some paper to replace a missing piece is sort of ok, drawing in or removing part of the design is NOT. )

In a few really complex situations the cert will say "we decline to render an opinion" Which can mean a lot of things. Anywhere from the thing is too beat up or heavily cancelled to properly identify it, to a stamp that may be real, but is extremely unusual in some way, enough that more than one expert can't be sure, or that the experts disagree.


And they can and do sometimes figure out later that something they thought was good isn't. And with enough evidence they'll recertify whatever it is as fake or as something else.

PSA could do that easily. Either slab the reprints as reprints and give them a number grade, or slab as fake if it's not a commercially produced reprint.


Steve B

[Pilot172000]

PSA could handle fake cards more clearly.

To say that no company would take on the liability of being wrong about a fake is silly, since that's exactly what expertizers - the equivalent of grading companies for stamps - do regularly.

If I send in a stamp I've identified as an rare expensive one, and I'm wrong, they send it back with a certificate describing it as what it actually is.

Their pricing is a minimum, or a percentage of the catalog value. If I think it's one worth say 100 thousand, and it's not, they only charge the minimum or the price for what it is.

If I send in an outright fake whether it was made by a famous forger, or by me just before sending it in, it comes back with a cert saying it's a fake. I think in the case of one done by someone famous like Sperati or Fournier, they state that as well.

Altered stamps are described as altered, usually with the alteration described, so you get an indication if the alteration is a repair, which in some cases is ok but worth a lot less, or an alteration that's likely fraudulent. (Adding some paper to replace a missing piece is sort of ok, drawing in or removing part of the design is NOT. )

In a few really complex situations the cert will say "we decline to render an opinion" Which can mean a lot of things. Anywhere from the thing is too beat up or heavily cancelled to properly identify it, to a stamp that may be real, but is extremely unusual in some way, enough that more than one expert can't be sure, or that the experts disagree.


And they can and do sometimes figure out later that something they thought was good isn't. And with enough evidence they'll recertify whatever it is as fake or as something else.

PSA could do that easily. Either slab the reprints as reprints and give them a number grade, or slab as fake if it's not a commercially produced reprint.


Steve B

I do agree that PSA could tweak their system. Slabbing them as reprints would be interesting yet risky just like rendering something completely fake. Could you imagine the hoards of Reprints getting sent in to PSA for that little red tag at the top of the holder?

[JTysver]

Actually, that is mail fraud and a Federal Offense.
The seller ought to be turned in to the Postal Inspector. I would think they would be more than interested in this especially since the dude is using the US Mail to sell fraudulent materials.
How is it Fraud? He stated it just came back from PSA. That is a lie.

[Pilot172000]

Which part is mail fraud? How do you know it didn't come back from PSA? In most cases its not against the law to lie. Is he or she selling something he presumes to be Authentic? You have to show intent. Its also under $100 which leads me to believe that the FBI is gonna pass since it would be at best a misdemeanor. This guy should be outed and shamed back into the dark hole that came from. This board does a great job of outing crap like this.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Actually, that is mail fraud and a Federal Offense.
The seller ought to be turned in to the Postal Inspector. I would think they would be more than interested in this especially since the dude is using the US Mail to sell fraudulent materials.
How is it Fraud? He stated it just came back from PSA. That is a lie.

It did just come back from PSA. Read Post #12. While I think it's morally wrong, it's not legally wrong. Ebay won't do anything about it because, technically, he's selling it for what it is as described on the flip - a Broad Leaf Wagner with Questionable Authenticity.

It's a very unfortunate situation.

[GasHouseGang]

It seems like it would be worth sending in fakes to PSA when they are running one of their "specials" on grading. If I can spend around $5 to get a worthless reprint graded, and then show it clearly with the PSA label, and still get around $80 or so for it, I'd be making more money than selling real cards. Plus, I don't even have to lie about it. After all, he's clearly showing the PSA certification.

[Pilot172000]

It did just come back from PSA. Read Post #12. While I think it's morally wrong, it's not legally wrong. Ebay won't do anything about it because, technically, he's selling it for what it is as described on the flip - a Broad Leaf Wagner with Questionable Authenticity.

It's a very unfortunate situation.

You are absolutely right and I remember hitting the brakes and looking at it while going through Ebay. Its shows it as ended and around $80+, did somebody bite on it or did they pull it?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Its shows it as ended and around $80+, did somebody bite on it or did they pull it?

No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.

[Pilot172000]

No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.

David I agree with you that its a crap sale. Before I joined this board and learned more about the backs and front combos (thanks Sean and Ted) I would have considered crap like that.

[MetsBaseball1973]

From PSA website

Mic drop, indeed. Case closed. Pretty sad grown men took time from their days to argue over such trivial crap. The internet is a cesspool.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The internet is a cesspool.

I concur.

[begsu1013]

kinda like a jacuzi.

it's all fine and dandy when there's bubbles...

but once those jets stop working, people realize it's just warm community bathwater....

[Leon]

All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?"..
I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo.

Which part is mail fraud? How do you know it didn't come back from PSA? In most cases its not against the law to lie. Is he or she selling something he presumes to be Authentic? You have to show intent. Its also under $100 which leads me to believe that the FBI is gonna pass since it would be at best a misdemeanor. This guy should be outed and shamed back into the dark hole that came from. This board does a great job of outing crap like this.

[sbfinley]

FWIW, BGS would also return this as "questionable authenticity". The reason being, a card printed in someone's basement is distinctly different than a mass produced reprint of known origins. Equally worthless, but the nonetheless different. Questionable flip or not, some idiot would have spent 100x it's true value. Assigning any blame to PSA is absurd, but par for the course.

[Pilot172000]

All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?"..
I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo.

You completely took what I said out of context. I didn't say "It's not against the law to lie" "I said in Most cases its not against the law to lie" BIG DARN DIFFERENCE. You can lie to your wife, you can lie to pretty much anyone as long as its not to a Federal agent, to misrepresent for profit (Fraud), or to cover for a criminal act. I have looked this listing over a dozen times and he didn't lie about anything. Vague? Absolutely, but no lying.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation.

You and I share the same opinion, Leon, so welcome to the cesspool. :D

And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead.

[ullmandds]

You and I share the same opinion, Leon, so welcome to the cesspool. :D

And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead.

yes...this is the whole point here...PSA could be doing a better job with their verbiage to avoid deception...that's all.

The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more.

[begsu1013]

The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more.

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster! and dont you dare look at the back of a (insert favorite mlb team here) ticket!

[ullmandds]

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

No...but I will say I am not a fan of legal, double speak mumbo jumbo written with the intent to deceive and confuse.

[ullmandds]

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster!

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

[begsu1013]

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

really?

[Leon]

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

C'mon now, can't we all just get along?
This thread is about a pre-war card but is not entirely a pre-war conversation. If this side were very strictly kept to only pre-war cards themselves it would be a less fun place. Topics surrounding pre war seem fair game as well as a few off topics here and there (in moderation). I think summing it up (but still open for debate)-

Many (and myself) think there could be better wording on the ?AUT flips.
Many think it's fine the way it is.
Most think lawyers have something to do with this issue. :)


.

[ullmandds]

really?

sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!:o

[Pat R]

Fixed it

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thanks, Pat! :D

I would be fine if they just put N4 on the flip. At least that way if a potential buyer didn't know what that meant, they could go to PSA's website and at least see it's a counterfeit.

"N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit"

[begsu1013]

sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!:o

we're cool, pete!

just a message board and nothing should be taken too seriously.

time in.

[begsu1013]

to summerize the thread:

1. wagner can not be a broadleaf
2. the flip should be changed to not dupe idiots
3. terminology used is legal mumbo jumbo
4. they prolly wont change it due to monetary making and liability issues
5. fine print still blows
6. no one feels good defending psa

did i miss anything?

[Pilot172000]

to summerize the thread:

1. wagner can not be a broadleaf
2. the flip should be changed to not dupe idiots
3. terminology used is legal mumbo jumbo
4. they prolly wont change it due to monetary making and liability issues
5. fine print still blows
6. no one feels good defending psa

did i miss anything?

Pretty much hit the nail on the head and saved many folks several pages of repetitive post.

[Pilot172000]

C'mon now, can't we all just get along?
This thread is about a pre-war card but is not entirely a pre-war conversation. If this side were very strictly kept to only pre-war cards themselves it would be a less fun place. Topics surrounding pre war seem fair game as well as a few off topics here and there (in moderation). I think summing it up (but still open for debate)-

Many (and myself) think there could be better wording on the ?AUT flips.
Many think it's fine the way it is.
Most think lawyers have something to do with this issue. :)


.

YUP, I blame the lawyers!

[begsu1013]

lawyers, guns and money.

[Joshchisox08]

lawyers, guns and money.

Sex, Drugs, and Rock & Roll \m/\m/

[Bill77]

If nothing else PSA should not even send out a flip or make the flip a different color so as not to give the counterfeiters real flips for their trade.

[begsu1013]

what does sgc/bvg do?

(not knocking, i seriously do not know)

[sbfinley]

what does sgc/bvg do?

(not knocking, i seriously do not know)
BVG would absolutely be questionable authenticity.

[begsu1013]

i was asking in regards to a flip?

do they provide the exact one that would go in the holder or is there a completely seperate form they return that doesnt resemble a flip?

i think i worded that decently...

[vintagetoppsguy]

i was asking in regards to a flip?

do they provide the exact one that would go in the holder or is there a completely seperate form they return that doesnt resemble a flip?

i think i worded that decently...

No, the provide a little slip of paper with boxes they check - they do not provide a flip like PSA.

[begsu1013]

so. screw the wording on the flip?

just dont even give one?

take the few extra seconds to internally "recall the flip" if its a fake and check a box.

stop making sense!!

[Leon]

See post 88. BVG would absolutely be questionable authenticity, my belief is SGC would be the same.

My belief is SGC would be-

X Counterfeit COU

If there is no question it is fake that is their policy acccording to the phone call I just had with their customer service.


If there is some question as to it's authenticity they use-

N . Cannot/Do Not Grade.. NO


.

[T206Collector]

A PSA flip didn't cause this one to get bid up over $1,000...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Honus-Wagner-Pittsburgh-Pirates-Piedmont-Tobacco-Baseball-Card-/231865409686?hash=item35fc416096:g:qR0AAOSwoudW2Tn E

If you want to blame anyone, blame human nature and why people buy lottery tickets or go to casinos. It's all the same phenomenon.

"If you see a T206 Wagner on ebay selling for less than $100,000, then it is a fake 100% of the time." This is a fact. If you find yourself struggling with this fact, and trying to think of exceptions to the rule, then you are one step closer to bidding on this crap than you should be. You will never be the guy that discovers such a once-in-a-lifetime find on ebay.

[nat]

"This thread is about a pre-war card"

Well, not really. It's probably c. 2015. Although PSA could have been clearer on the matter.


And I'm still curious about the bidders. To repeat a question from my last post, if they thought that it was real, why did bidding end up at $80? If I thought there was a real Wagner to be had, my bids would have been some orders of magnitude higher than that. Say this Wagner would be worth 800k (number made up for sake of argument, actual number doesn't really matter). If there's even a 1% chance that this is real you should be willing to bid up to $8000 on it. So the bidders are saying that they can tell with 99.99% certainty that it's fake, but that they're not QUITE sure? Really?

[Edwolf1963]

Pat, your post #98 made me LOL :)

I agree with many who have said that the wording can be confusing, misleading. Most wouldn't know what "? AUTHTCT" is. Hell, I didn't recall seeing that before and initially thought the flip was a fake :confused:

Not blaming PSA, just think they could word it better - especially since the N4 code that references whatever ? AUTHTCT specifically notes counterfeit.

[T206Collector]

So the bidders are saying that they can tell with 99.99% certainty that it's fake, but that they're not QUITE sure? Really?

That's what bugs me, too. The total irrationality of it. Like an admission it's fake but the uncontrollable urge to spend money anyway.

[sbfinley]

My belief is SGC would be-

X Counterfeit COU

If there is no question it is fake that is their policy acccording to the phone call I just had with their customer service.


If there is some question as to it's authenticity they use-

N . Cannot/Do Not Grade.. NO


.


If that's the case I'll edit my original posts.

[Edwolf1963]

Another one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/t206-honus-wagner-sweet-caporal-card-tarnished-/252385562964?hash=item3ac35a1154:g:spAAAOSwWntXMm7 9

.. and then posed as "unknown/questionable"

[pokerplyr80]

Another one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/t206-honus-wagner-sweet-caporal-card-tarnished-/252385562964?hash=item3ac35a1154:g:spAAAOSwWntXMm7 9

.. and then posed as "unknown/questionable"

If someone actually pays 9k for that I think we're going to see a lot more sellers submitting fake Wagners and re-selling on Ebay. Begsu's suggestion of not issuing a flip with these, and just checking box that says questionable authenticity on a piece of paper seems like an easy way to avoid this situation.

[Leon]

They could use common sense and put COUnterfeit on the flip but then again, why make it easy?

If someone actually pays 9k for that I think we're going to see a lot more sellers submitting fake Wagners and re-selling on Ebay. Begsu's suggestion of not issuing a flip with these, and just checking box that says questionable authenticity on a piece of paper seems like an easy way to avoid this situation.

[bbcard1]

I'll pass. I'm still saving up for the Cincinnati Wagner.