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View Full Version : ERA question when error in inning


1952boyntoncollector
04-10-2016, 11:36 AM
Man on first base with 1 out. He tries to steal 2nd and overthrow causes runner to go to 3rd base. Against drawn in infield, next better gets a base hit only due to the infield being brought in...for sake of argument there is 100% chance an out would of been made had runner been on 2nd..... The next 2 batters strike out and inning is over. (of course if there was a runner on 2nd or 3rd, maybe the next batters wouldnt of struck out and been sure to make more contact, but we will save that for another day)

My understanding is that run in earned.....i know there are earned runs issues based on the 'intent' of runners..would they of run home at there not been a bobble etc...

but this isnt an intent issue....just seems like the run shouldnt of been earned but it will be....i guess the 'cant assume a double play' also means 'cant assume an ordinary out'......

anyway just asking out there if theres any possibility the scorekeeper could make that run not earned due to the drawn in infield.....

Butch7999
04-10-2016, 02:41 PM
Seems (seems) like the runner on 1st should have been out trying to steal, or no better than safe at 2nd,
and an error should've been charged for his advance to 3rd.
Without the error, scorer can't assume he would've scored from 2nd on the hit, regardless of defensive
positioning, and thus the run is unearned.

Just the instinct here... would like to hear the take from official scorers on board...

1952boyntoncollector
04-10-2016, 03:46 PM
Seems (seems) like the runner on 1st should have been out trying to steal, or no better than safe at 2nd,
and an error should've been charged for his advance to 3rd.
Without the error, scorer can't assume he would've scored from 2nd on the hit, regardless of defensive
positioning, and thus the run is unearned.

Just the instinct here... would like to hear the take from official scorers on board...

I trying to narrow the issue..we can say the runner got on 3rd clearly by an error....the issue i have is the drawn in infield......a 'base hit' simply wouldnt have happened without a drawn in infield...

swarmee
04-11-2016, 06:41 PM
I don't think fielder's positioning has anything to do with it. If you have an extreme pull hitter and the shift is put on, when he bunts to an open 3B no error is charged. That's a hit. It would be in your case too.

Butch7999
04-14-2016, 11:37 AM
We stand fully ready to be corrected, but whether or not the infield is pulled in, or shifted left or right, or whatever, has nothing to do with the issue.
The only salient point is that when crediting runs as earned or unearned, the official scorer recreates the inning without the error(s).
With the error removed, the runner on 3rd was either thrown out at 2nd attempting to steal, or he stole safely but advanced no farther than 2nd.
If he was thrown out at 2nd, the single occurs with two out and the bases empty, and the next batter strikes out, ending the inning scoreless.
If he stole 2nd safely, the scorer can't assume he would have advanced by more bases than the hit, so you'd have runners at 1st and 3rd with one out.
The next two batters both strike out, again ending the inning scoreless.
The run scores only by dint of the throwing error allowing him to have moved to 3rd, thus, it's unearned.

But maybe we're wrong. Where are the official scorers on board who can provide an official ruling?

mid50sbaseball
04-15-2016, 09:48 AM
We stand fully ready to be corrected, but whether or not the infield is pulled in, or shifted left or right, or whatever, has nothing to do with the issue.
The only salient point is that when crediting runs as earned or unearned, the official scorer recreates the inning without the error(s).
With the error removed, the runner on 3rd was either thrown out at 2nd attempting to steal, or he stole safely but advanced no farther than 2nd.
If he was thrown out at 2nd, the single occurs with two out and the bases empty, and the next batter strikes out, ending the inning scoreless.
If he stole 2nd safely, the scorer can't assume he would have advanced by more bases than the hit, so you'd have runners at 1st and 3rd with one out.
The next two batters both strike out, again ending the inning scoreless.
The run scores only by dint of the throwing error allowing him to have moved to 3rd, thus, it's unearned.

But maybe we're wrong. Where are the official scorers on board who can provide an official ruling?

there are too many "what if's" in your scenario so you'd have to be much more specific.

let's assume there was no throwing error but the runner successfully stole second base. So you now have a runner on second with two outs.

Who's the runner? Is it Prince Fielder? (slow, very unlikely to score on a ground ball single) or Jose Altuve? (pretty fast and most likely could)

The infield is drawn in, but where are the outfielders? Are they playing shallow? No, more than likely they're playing fairly deep to make sure no fly balls get over their heads. So a speedy runner on second could certainly get home on a ground ball up the middle.

Maybe it's a full count and the runner is off on the pitch making it even easier to score from second on a single.

Your statement that the scorer re-creates the inning without the error is quasi-accurate but I don't believe they'd go so far as to consider "would the infield be drawn in or not, and if not would this single have been a single" etc. there's way too many variables to be able to say those things with certainty so I don't think you could take them into consideration.

I believe what they look at is, if this error had not occurred would the runner who eventually scored have been out? I'm pretty sure that's the extent of it. If he would have been out (and it'd have to be virtually certain that he would be which is why there's the "you can't assume a double play" thing because there's lots of instances of a runner beating out a double play) then he obviously wouldn't be able to score a run, so if he does as result of an error then that's an unearned run.

In your scenario though, you cannot say with any real degree of certainty that he would have been out at second. And you also cannot say with any real degree of certainty that he can't score from second on a ground ball single through the infield (drawn in or otherwise). You said that the scorer can't assume he would advance by more bases than the hit. I'm not sure the scorer can assume he wouldn't either. 2nd base is considered "scoring position" after all...

As such, in my opinion the run is earned.

1952boyntoncollector
04-15-2016, 10:17 AM
there are too many "what if's" in your scenario so you'd have to be much more specific.

let's assume there was no throwing error but the runner successfully stole second base. So you now have a runner on second with two outs.

Who's the runner? Is it Prince Fielder? (slow, very unlikely to score on a ground ball single) or Jose Altuve? (pretty fast and most likely could)

The infield is drawn in, but where are the outfielders? Are they playing shallow? No, more than likely they're playing fairly deep to make sure no fly balls get over their heads. So a speedy runner on second could certainly get home on a ground ball up the middle.

Maybe it's a full count and the runner is off on the pitch making it even easier to score from second on a single.

Your statement that the scorer re-creates the inning without the error is quasi-accurate but I don't believe they'd go so far as to consider "would the infield be drawn in or not, and if not would this single have been a single" etc. there's way too many variables to be able to say those things with certainty so I don't think you could take them into consideration.

I believe what they look at is, if this error had not occurred would the runner who eventually scored have been out? I'm pretty sure that's the extent of it. If he would have been out (and it'd have to be virtually certain that he would be which is why there's the "you can't assume a double play" thing because there's lots of instances of a runner beating out a double play) then he obviously wouldn't be able to score a run, so if he does as result of an error then that's an unearned run.

In your scenario though, you cannot say with any real degree of certainty that he would have been out at second. And you also cannot say with any real degree of certainty that he can't score from second on a ground ball single through the infield (drawn in or otherwise). You said that the scorer can't assume he would advance by more bases than the hit. I'm not sure the scorer can assume he wouldn't either. 2nd base is considered "scoring position" after all...

As such, in my opinion the run is earned.


yeah understood.....so good defenses still help a Pitchers era more than people realize...i think hitter hits .100 better with a drawn in infield

Butch7999
04-15-2016, 04:39 PM
mid50s, you seem to be conflating the OP's posts with our responses. The "what-ifs" are in the OP's original scenario.
He's since conceded that the runner is on 3rd only because of an error.
We were the ones who said defensive positioning is not a factor, and was not to be taken into consideration,
in determining whether the run was earned or unearned -- that was a key part of the OP's question.

Assumptions as to whether or not a runner would have advanced are not fuzzy supposition, they are the obligation
of the official scorer, and any assumption must be made in the pitcher's favor. In this scenario, the runner is safe at 2nd
perhaps/probably because of the error (we agree with you that there's insufficient detail in the way the play was described),
but definitively safe at 3rd only because of the error. Even if the runner is adjudged to have reached 2nd safely
without the error, it seems clear that the scorer cannot assume he would score from 2nd on a one-out single
(not two outs, if we're reading the original post correctly).
And of course, if in the scorer's judgment "ordinary effort" should have put out the runner attempting to steal,
then the question is moot, because in reconstructing the inning without the errors, there's no longer any baserunner at all.

Please consult MLB rule 9.16. "In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors...
giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners
had there been errorless play."
That doesn't seem merely "quasi-accurate."
9.16
(c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose presence on the bases is prolonged by an error, if such runner
would have been put out by errorless play.
(d) No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error... if in the official scorer’s judgment
the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay.
(f ) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases
any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.

Again, a convincing argument would persuade us we're wrong, but it'd be nice to hear a verdict from one or more
of the fellows on board who do in fact work as official scorers...

Wish we'd had a more interesting topic for post #400...

mid50sbaseball
04-15-2016, 04:52 PM
well...after reviewing some rules as you suggested it appears this ENTIRE CONVERSATION may be moot, lol.

someone please feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly.

so the intial condition was that a runner reached 3rd because of a wild throw while he was attempting to steal 2nd.

MLB rule 9.12.a.5

An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has
assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12 (Rule
10.12).
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely,
when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have
put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made
attempting to prevent a stolen base;

so if I'm reading that correctly, no error was actually committed, thus the runner, having reached 3rd via the overthrow and subsequently scoring on the single would be considered an earned run.

again, feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted something.

Jim65
04-16-2016, 02:57 AM
well...after reviewing some rules as you suggested it appears this ENTIRE CONVERSATION may be moot, lol.

someone please feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly.

so the intial condition was that a runner reached 3rd because of a wild throw while he was attempting to steal 2nd.

MLB rule 9.12.a.5

An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has
assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12 (Rule
10.12).
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely,
when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have
put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made
attempting to prevent a stolen base;

so if I'm reading that correctly, no error was actually committed, thus the runner, having reached 3rd via the overthrow and subsequently scoring on the single would be considered an earned run.

again, feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted something.

A players gets credit for stolen base on a wild throw, no error if the runner stays at second, once the runner advances because of a wild throw, an error has to be charged. What the next batter does determines earned run or not, If the batter hits a Sac Fly, run is unearned, if the next batter homers, its an earned run.

Butch7999
04-16-2016, 10:17 AM
mid50s raised a valid and salient point (9.12.a.5) we'd overlooked, but Jim65 (thank you, sir) beats us to a rebuttal.

9.12
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw)... prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases...
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner,
unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base;
(6) whose wild throw in attempting to prevent a runner’s advance permits that runner or any other runner to advance one or more bases
beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild;

and

(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:
(1) the catcher when the catcher, after receiving the pitch, makes a wild throw attempting to prevent a stolen base,
unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases or permits any other runner
to advance one or more bases;
(2) any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer’s judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort
by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild;

So mid50s, you are correct that no error is charged on the overthrow allowing the steal of 2nd -- however, an error is charged
(or should be) on the runner's advance to 3rd as a result of the overthrow.
Because the runner is on 3rd as the result of an error, and not merely safe at 2nd, the run he scores on an ensuing single is unearned.
The run is earned if he scores, as Jim65 posits, on an ensuing home run (or, we'd think, on any extra-base hit).

frankbmd
04-16-2016, 12:23 PM
The unearned run in the dead ball era is the principle reason that the ERAs are so low. With more fielding errors a higher percentage of runs are unearned in that era. It is not that the pitchers were uniformly awesome or that the hitters were terrible. The gloves were bad and statistically the fielding was "little leagueish".

What has always bothered me a little is the extra base on a throwing error vs the extra out provided to the hitting team on a dropped fly ball.

In the second case (dropped ball providing a four out inning essentially) the hitting team can score 15 runs in the inning after the error on what would have been the third out and all the subsequent runs in that inning are unearned.

In the first case (as in the scenario presented) the extra base provides an opportunity for the runner on third to score and be unearned if he wouldn't have scored from second before the third out, but subsequent runs in the inning would or could be earned I believe. But if he is on third base as a result of the errant throw and the next batter hits a home run, I believe the run from third would be earned as he would have scored anyway from second on the home run.

Other scenarios exist where one has to consider all the events of the inning before determining if some or all of the runs are unearned.

Another conundrum in my opinion is the passed ball vs the wild pitch, both of which result in an unearned base if you will. The passed ball is on the catcher, but is not an error. The wild pitch is on the pitcher, but is not an error. I do not believe that either can result in an unearned run, as in the scenario provided here where the extra base throwing error can result in an unearned run. Furthermore at times to distnguish between a wild pitch and a passed ball can be somewhat arbitrary, but I don't think it matters with respect to unearned runs.

Disclaimer: I have not read the rule book in decades and if any of my conjecture is inaccurate, so be it. The general topic however is interesting for discussion.