Should for sale listings be allowed in the b/s/t without prices

[pokerplyr80]

1. Yes a seller should be free to list any card with or without a price.

2. No an asking price must be stated.

3. I don't care.

[bnorth]

I voted NO.

[bobbyw8469]

"I Don't Care"

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I Don't Care"

Me too.

[Kenny Cole]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

[frankbmd]

I voted Yes, not because I do it. See my post in the other thread to find out why.

[BeanTown]

I just made my confidential vote. After seeing the results, it looks exactly like the GOP!

No- Trump
Yes- Kasich
I Don't Care - Cruz

[cracker_jack]

We're all 'mostly' knowledgeable and experienced collectors here. If it's a card you want, make a realistic offer. If not, don't click on the post.

[pokerplyr80]

We're all 'mostly' knowledgeable and experienced collectors here. If it's a card you want, make a realistic offer. If not, don't click on the post.

That can work the other way though. An experienced and knowledgeable collector or seller should know what they need for a card and be able to list a price.

[Thecafewha]

I don't care. If it's a regular item without a price I keep moving. If it's something I think I really need and price doesn't matter I will contact the seller.


Joshua Van Pelt

[rdixon1208]

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.

[Joshchisox08]

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.


This post right here!

[1952boyntoncollector]

However, if there is no price and you PM for a price which they ask you to do in the post and then refuse in response to the PM thats sort of ridiculous too

[Steve D]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.


+1

I voted NO.

Steve

[pbspelly]

Whenever someone says make an offer, I always think of this scene from "Tin Men":


CAR SALESMAN
Now, how much are you willing to
pay?

BB
Four dollars... I want to pay four
dollars a month.

CAR SALESMAN
That's not an honest answer.

BB
What do ya want to hear? That I'd
love to pay three hundred and fifty
a month... is that what you want to
hear? Tell me how much you want me
to pay and I'll tell you how much
I'll pay, but don't do a hustle on
me... I don't like that. How much
do I want to pay? I'd like to pay
nothing!

[pokerplyr80]

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.

This is probably the best argument against requiring a price that I could think of. In general I am against excessive rules whenever possible. I still think if something is offered for sale a starting price should be provided. I like that there aren't many rules on this site, but in my opinion this would be a good one.

[JeremyW]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Pretty much the same for me.

[T206Collector]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

[4815162342]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.


+1

[iowadoc77]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

I was at really don't care, but this is a great reason

[midmo]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Same here. I don't think a rule should be made, but without a price or picture I usually ignore and move on.

[T206Collector]

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

[tiger8mush]

Even worse than no price is no picture

[vintagetoppsguy]

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

[ls7plus]

Me too.

Ditto. If there's mutual interest, seller and buyer will work it out [or not].

Best wishes,

Larry

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

+1

[Filthy]

A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale.

This is also part of the issue at hand. "May be" or "potentially" for sale. Why is it maybe or potentially.? If it is actually for sale..then there is no middle ground. It is either for sale.......or it isn't. If its not for sale....than it has no business posted in a for sale forum in the first place. If it's for sale.....what's the price?


I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. There's that "potential" word again. If its being posted in a for sale forum....it is "on the market." Am I missing something there? There seems to be an ever increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum without a price.....just to post them up.


I'm definitely not talking about you specifically by any means, but you have been the only one to be willing to have an intelligent conversation about said subject. And it seems as if those that are well in favor of "not posting" a price, are much less willing to verbalize their reasons as to why. Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response.

[T206Collector]

There seems to be an ever increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum without a price.....just to post them up.

I say post them up. I get more information about the market and my hobby by learning of the existence of these cards. I'm for more information, not less.

How does a "list a price" rule diminish the "increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum [with an unreasonable] price.....just to post them up?"

What's next? "Only prices within 5% of the most recent sale price for a card on ebay may be asked on a card in the B/S/T?"

Blowhards with no intent of selling cards are a part of our hobby lore. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

[frankbmd]

Hypothetical Question

Imagine that you are the supreme leader of BST and you have the authority to set it up anyway you want, so that it meets your needs and desires. In other words a perfect BST in your opinion.

Do you really think, if that were the case, that there would be any more of a consensus for your BST verses the current BST?

You are free to participate in the current format and do your thing the way you do your thing. There are very few restrictions imposed on you. The fees are reasonable and lots of deals get done. It seems to work for the vast majority of us, even though each of us would probably tweek it in some way if we were the supreme leader. I really think the bulk of this discussion is "Much Ado About Nothing", to coin a phrase.;)

[iwantitiwinit]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

What he said. Actually, I look at it this way if it's listed without a price it gives me the opportunity to decide whether I want to pursue a transaction or not. If it's forbidden to list a card without a price I most likely won't have that opportunity in as many situations. I prefer to have that choice more often than not.

[Joshchisox08]

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

Dave initially the email for scan was off-putting to me. Then I actually found a couple of the sellers who did that simply had amazing looking cards at a decent price.

[7nohitter]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Me too

[ullmandds]

i said i dont care...i'd rather see more cards...period! so if someone wants to sell something or is testing the waters...i'd prefer to see it than not.

[Leon]

You had me going till this....:confused:

Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response.

[bobbyw8469]

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.


David...on a side note, nothing gets my goat more than to pull out a bunch of cards out of the vault to try to meet someone's "BUY" list, scan all the cards so he can see pictures, then be met with crickets. It's not an issue about price, but at the very least, give a response saying "I'm not interested". It's called consideration.

[pokerplyr80]

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

Perhaps a separate section for cards that might be for sale, or could be for the right price would keep everyone happy. You could also just post here asking for ideas of a cards value.

[ajquigs]

I voted yes.

With the question phrased as "be allowed" I interpret the options as: (1) allow listings with no price, (2) do not allow listings with no price (i.e. remove "no price" posts), or (3) genuine indifference to whether such listings are permitted.

Like most people, I'm not attracted to listings with no price and I think they can be frustrating. Still, all things considered I think they should be allowed for a number of reasons already stated: one less rule to enforce, some deals do get done, some items are truly difficult to value, some members are interested in what's "out there" now or perhaps sometime in the future, etc.

[basesareempty]

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

+1

[Filthy]

I say post them up. I get more information about the market and my hobby by learning of the existence of these cards. I'm for more information, not less.

How does a "list a price" rule diminish the "increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum [with an unreasonable] price.....just to post them up?"

What's next? "Only prices within 5% of the most recent sale price for a card on ebay may be asked on a card in the B/S/T?"

Blowhards with no intent of selling cards are a part of our hobby lore. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

I appreciate the input. However, I feel like you as well as some of the others have interpreted this entre discussion as a "there should be changes made to the B/S/T forum" and that "We don't need a bunch of rules" in the B/S/T forum. I've never recommended or suggested such, as this isn't my website and I have zero input. I wasn't asking or suggesting anything be changed...as I merely brought up the original discussion and wanted to know the philosophy of why someone would choose to post something for sale, and then deliberately not provide a price......often times, even after being asked. (As in what are their true intentions?) Moreso to share with the community that the majority believes them to be "shady", and/or dishonest, with something to hide. Nothing more...and nothing less.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by Filthy
Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response

You had me going till this....:confused:

"Double speak, and half truths." You know...when you ask someone a very direct yes or no question, and they hem-haw around give you a long winded 5 minute long explanation of everything under the sun, and still never answer the question.

Sorry, maybe I'm Old School, but the way I was raised was that if you ask a grown man a very direct "Yes or No" question...and he can't look you directly in the eye and can't give you an answer...and instead exerts a large amount of effort trying to "convince" you to "see things his way," then that is a dishonest man.

[drmondobueno]

I have yet to buy a card on BST without a price, either on a card, or a group of cards, but appreciate the offer, or what appears to be an offer, on the board. Like to see activity on BST, period. Comments can be interesting and informative, too.

If it bothers you, too bad, so sad, not your card, not your board. Sure as hell ain't mine so I worry about other things. Like breathing.

Just sayin.

[steve B]

Hypothetical Question

Imagine that you are the supreme leader of BST and you have the authority to set it up anyway you want, so that it meets your needs and desires. In other words a perfect BST in your opinion.

Do you really think, if that were the case, that there would be any more of a consensus for your BST verses the current BST?



I know that if I set it up my way the consensus would be overwhelmingly to not use it.

I'd want first crack at stuff for maybe 10% ----cause I'm cheap. :D:D
(Ok, not actually that cheap)

Steve B

[steve B]

I voted for yes, but it's a thing that can work both ways. Another hobby group I'm in requires price and pictures for all for sale listings. The real positive there is that there's no confusion about what you're getting, and it's really easy to simply ignore listings if the price seems too high.

As far as anything that is maybe for sale.
My whole collection with maybe a handful of exceptions is "maybe" for sale. And at the same time "not for sale"

Feel free to make absurdly high offers either cash or trade for pretty much anything in my collection. The crazier you are the more likely I'll say yes!


Steve B

[Leon]

I get what you were saying and I agree. It's a pet peeve of mine when someone won't just say yes or no. I am in agreement. It was only the verbiage you used which made me more smile than anything else..
"that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response"


This all being said it's an interesting topic.


Originally Posted by Filthy

"Double speak, and half truths." You know...when you ask someone a very direct yes or no question, and they hem-haw around give you a long winded 5 minute long explanation of everything under the sun, and still never answer the question.

Sorry, maybe I'm Old School, but the way I was raised was that if you ask a grown man a very direct "Yes or No" question...and he can't look you directly in the eye and can't give you an answer...and instead exerts a large amount of effort trying to "convince" you to "see things his way," then that is a dishonest man.

[4815162342]

I appreciate the input. However, I feel like you as well as some of the others have interpreted this entre discussion as a "there should be changes made to the B/S/T forum" and that "We don't need a bunch of rules" in the B/S/T forum. I've never recommended or suggested such, as this isn't my website and I have zero input. I wasn't asking or suggesting anything be changed...as I merely brought up the original discussion and wanted to know the philosophy of why someone would choose to post something for sale, and then deliberately not provide a price......often times, even after being asked. (As in what are their true intentions?) Moreso to share with the community that the majority believes them to be "shady", and/or dishonest, with something to hide. Nothing more...and nothing less.


So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.

[Pilot172000]

So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.

When I post a card asking for offers, its because I don't know what the heck I got or how much someone would give me for that card.

[Zach Wheat]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

My answer is I really don't care....if there isn't a price I generally just move on. The reason I voted "No" is I did not want my offer to be a Stalking Horse bid for someone else to match or beat - or to do the homework for a potential seller on what a more rare item may be worth.

No big deal either way on most items though.

Z

[Filthy]

So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.



I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

[Leon]

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

[Bestdj777]

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

Leon, can you please put that in your signature block so that we can at least consider it when buying cards from you :)

I use make an offer when I don't have a clue what the value of my cards is. Nothing wrong with people selling stuff the way they want to sell it.

[4815162342]

... in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.





.


That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

[bnorth]

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

I did see you shill bidding your own auction in the BST area.:D This is meant to be funny and not taken serious.

[Filthy]

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

I think we have all agreed in these discussions, that it would be "open to interpretation" as to what your true intentions were. And it would be unfair to cast judgment upon you, nor would it be fair to paint the picture that you are one in the same.

But at the most basic level, it is still a lack of transparency. And in any other arena of commerce, in the buying, selling, or trading of any type of goods, lack of transparency when presenting something for sale, is seen as being dishonest.

[bobbyw8469]

That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

Consider the source.

[Filthy]

That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

Do you have any intelligent input, as to how you see it differently? As in I'm open to differing opinion, however over the past few days...those who also seem to be in agreement to your side of this "conversation/argument/discussion" have also just popped in with quick/hateful one liners without much other productive thoughts/opinions, as to why.

.

[4815162342]

Do you have any intelligent input, as to how you see it differently?


Card doctoring, shill bidding, and selling fakes or reprints as originals are all examples of fraud. A guy taking bids on a card is not.

[bnorth]

The one thing this poll did show is you can list your item(s) how ever you want but you WILL get a MUCH larger group of potential buyers with prices listed.

[Filthy]

Card doctoring, shill bidding, and selling fakes or reprints as originals are all examples of fraud. A guy taking bids on a card is not.

I don't disagree with you on that. You and Leon both took the broad stroke of my comment, and ran with it. I do think, that there is a significant difference of severity between the two. Much like, while driving, I have run a red light before...and I have driven over the speed limit...ALOT. I'm not a murderer nor a rapist, nor have I ever robbed a store at gunpoint...but at the end of the day those silly traffic offenses that no one really cares about, at the "most basic level" are still technically just as much against the law, as those more serious offenses. <--- Please don't run with this now, and interpret that I am saying that not posting a price is the same as breaking the law.



http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220632


I have posted the original thread above, of you wanted to bore yourselves with the details, but the original discussion was genuinely wanting to know what legitimate reasons were for someone posting something for sale...yet deliberately not publishing a price. Nothing more.....Nothing less. Yet it has turned into a poll, and a somewhat combative conversation.

[Filthy]

The one thing this poll did show is you can list your item(s) how ever you want but you WILL get a MUCH larger group of potential buyers with prices listed.

I was hoping not to have to point out the current poll results, as its painfully obvious. However, the same holds true for any commerce of any goods in any type of market.

[4815162342]

I don't disagree with you on that. You and Leon both took the broad stroke of my comment, and ran with it. I do think, that there is a significant difference of severity between the two. Much like, while driving, I have run a red light before...and I have driven over the speed limit...ALOT. I'm not a murderer nor a rapist, nor have I ever robbed a store at gunpoint...but at the end of the day those silly traffic offenses that no one really cares about, at the "most basic level" are still technically just as much against the law, as those more serious offenses. <--- Please don't run with this now, and interpret that I am saying that not posting a price is the same as breaking the law.







http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220632





I have posted the original thread above, of you wanted to bore yourselves with the details, but the original discussion was genuinely wanting to know what legitimate reasons were for someone posting something for sale...yet deliberately not publishing a price. Nothing more.....Nothing less. Yet it has turned into a poll, and a somewhat combative conversation.


I had already read the original thread, but thanks for another condescending reply.

[Filthy]

I had already read the original thread, but thanks for another condescending reply.

I apologize, as I did not mean to come across as condescending.

[CMIZ5290]

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

[bnorth]

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

I am not Jesse but will try to tackle that question. Maybe it will convince some of the sellers that they really are losing customers by not including a price. The poll #'s don't lie. So to me that is helping the board.

[pokerplyr80]

I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

I thought, based on the discussion, that it would make for an interesting poll question. I have made my opinion clear, but I certainly wouldn't compare those who lists cards without prices to those committing fraud in our hobby.

[CMIZ5290]

I am not Jesse but will try to tackle that question. Maybe it will convince some of the sellers that they really are losing customers by not including a price. The poll #'s don't lie. So to me that is helping the board.

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

[pokerplyr80]

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

I thought it would be interesting to see what the board as a whole thought about the issue. From my responses you know I don't like the practice, and see the issue come up frequently. With the discussion already going I figured why not take a poll and see what everyone thinks. Nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't necessarily think it would accomplish anything in terns of a rule change. If enough people thought the same way I do, which apparently about half do and a quarter don't, maybe it would encourage people to list prices for their cards.

[CMIZ5290]

I thought, based on the discussion, that it would make for an interesting poll question. I have made my opinion clear, but I certainly wouldn't compare those who lists cards without prices to those committing fraud in our hobby.

Thank you for at least that....

[pokerplyr80]

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

This was directed to Ben but I would like to answer. If it was a card I have to have and have been searching for I would probably ask. However I frequently buy cards I want necessarily searching for, and will be much less likely to inquire about one with no price listed.

An example is I will probably sell my PSA 7 red Cobb and down grade to a 4 to match my others. I didn't inquire about yours based on the discussion on your post and lack of price. Now I'm not saying you lost a sale, and we probably wouldn't have reached an agreement, but I do believe it prevents some people from inquiring on some cards they might have otherwise purchased.

[CMIZ5290]

This was directed to Ben but I would like to answer. If it was a card I have to have and have been searching for I would probably ask. However I frequently buy cards I want necessarily searching for, and will be much less likely to inquire about one with no price listed.

An example is I will probably sell my PSA 7 red Cobb and down grade to a 4 to match my others. I didn't inquire about yours based on the discussion on your post and lack of price. Now I'm not saying you lost a sale, and we probably wouldn't have reached an agreement, but I do believe it prevents some people from inquiring on some cards they might have otherwise purchased.

Unbelievable...At least you're honest...

[frankbmd]

I think the argument here can be summarized as follows:


An Ebola outbreak close by or a "dirty" bomb in your city is the moral equivalent of listing a card in BST without a price.


I don't think so, but that's just me. A corollary observation is that:


An Ebola outbreak creates strange bedfellows.:D

[Thromdog]

...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

This. +1

[bnorth]

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

Because the same people voting no also say they pass on listing because there is no price.

I personally have never asked for a price of a item. If no price I just pass, several others in this thread have said the same thing.

For me I am usually not looking for specific cards and when looking through the BST listings buy thing that make me go "I want one of those".

If you are happy with what you are doing that is great and all that should matter to you. Happy selling the way you like.:)

[CMIZ5290]

Because the same people voting no also say they pass on listing because there is no price.

I personally have never asked for a price of a item. If no price I just pass, several others in this thread have said the same thing.

For me I am usually not looking for specific cards and when looking through the BST listings buy thing that make me go "I want one of those".

If you are happy with what you are doing that is great and all that should matter to you. Happy selling the way you like.:)

delete, I'm not going to make any other comments on this thread, thanks

[pokerplyr80]

Unbelievable...At least you're honest...

I think it happens more often than you think. Sometimes I ask sometimes I don't and just move on. There are a few cards I have picked up on net54 because I liked the card and reached an agreement with the seller. I have found this is more difficult with those who do not list prices in my personal experiences.

[bnorth]

:)

[CMIZ5290]

deleted....[QUOTE=bnorth;1524312]I have no idea, from reading all the replies I never seen a single post that described exactly what they passed on

[Peter_Spaeth]

I really don't see the big deal. If Kevin doesn't post a price, email or PM him and say hey Kevin what were you thinking price wise? If he refuses to answer and insists you give a price first and you don't want to, move on. Either way, no biggie.

[GoldenAge50s]

I have read all 75 posts in this thread & for the life of me, I don't know WHY!

[irv]

That can work the other way though. An experienced and knowledgeable collector or seller should know what they need for a card and be able to list a price.

I hate just "Best Offer"

Tell me what you want, then "or best offer" if you want, or say firm, and if I think it's something that's reasonable and I can afford it then we'll talk and/or do business.

[CMIZ5290]

I have no idea, from reading all the replies I never seen a single post that described exactly what they passed on.

Me personally I usually buy raw because it is what I prefer. If I do buy graded 99% of the time I crack them out. I have around 10-15 in slabs.

I have had some problems in the past with very rare and high graded cards that I posted a price on. Someone comes along interested in the card, but they have a trade that they think a lot more of than me. Can make for hard feelings. Having said that, most all of my cards are priced. This topic quite frankly has been a huge waste of my time when other things much more constructive could have been discussed....What is the huge deal anyway? I dont get it....

[JollyElm]

Why don't we instead make a rule banning all threads that are a monumental waste of time. If your biggest problem is you're crying because people don't place prices in their threads, it sounds to me like life is pretty good for you. Count your blessings and move on. What's next? Are you going to be upset if the photos and scans in the latest pickups thread doesn't include a wide enough variety of races and sexual orientations???? Geez.

[the 'stache]

This topic quite frankly has been a huge waste of my time when other things much more constructive could have been discussed....What is the huge deal anyway? I dont get it....

We'll all make a concerted effort to ensure that future topics are worthy of your time.

[Filthy]

your opinion is beyond stupid.

You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes.

You have complained about this thread not being "productive" and a great waste of time, yet all you have added is half witted insults. You have a differing opinion than mine, and that's fine. A message boards main purpose is to discuss/debate issues at hand. And the results of this poll are a direct reflection of the collective opinions of the members who post here. And the results of this particular discussion speak loud and clear......even moreso, its also glaringly obvious that those who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. Much like a petulant child, being asked a question as to why....and all they can say...is BECAUSE! Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one. I would think that social skills, life experiences, level of intellect and self awareness would be a much better barometer of ones value to a message board.

[vintagetoppsguy]

And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one.

That has always bugged me as well. It's like the more posts someone has, they more knowledgeable and respectable they become to other board members. :rolleyes:

I don't get it. And it's not just here. It's even worse on CU.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I really don't see the big deal. If Kevin doesn't post a price, email or PM him and say hey Kevin what were you thinking price wise? If he refuses to answer and insists you give a price first and you don't want to, move on. Either way, no biggie.

As Ben and others have stated, there are many of us that don't even bother inquiring about an item when a price is not listed. You're right, it's not a big deal - it's just the point of the matter. I think if someone is serious about selling an item, then they would post a price. No price = not serious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That has always bugged me as well. It's like the more posts someone has, they more knowledgeable and respectable they become to other board members. :rolleyes:

I don't get it. And it's not just here. It's even worse on CU.

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable. :D

[vintagetoppsguy]

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable. :D

And, at least to me, he is.

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

Likewise, it seems when new members come to the board and share new ideas/opinions, they are overlooked because they are new and they couldn't possibly know more than the 'respected and knowledgeable" board members who've been here for years. :rolleyes:

[frankbmd]

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable. :D


Look in the mirror Peter.

There may be an exception to that rule.:eek:

[vintagetoppsguy]

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

On the CU boards, there is a title under one's username such as member, senior member, collector, master collector, etc. That title is based on nothing more that your post count. What a joke?!? :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look in the mirror Peter.

There may be an exception to that rule.:eek:

You are near a milestone post yourself lad. Don't waste it on the usual obscure humor. :D

[bnorth]

You are near a milestone post yourself lad. Don't waste it on the usual obscure humor. :D

I love Franks obscure humor. I have even asked for lessons a couple times but sadly he says NO.:)

[Oneofthree67]

Sellers option to list prices and you don't need to ship the items Priority Mail...

[RichardSimon]

Sellers should list prices.
You own it, you want to sell it, tell me how much you want.
You are not an amateur who does not really know what you have.
You are in the hobby, you know what you have and what is a fair price.
Don't play games, be a mensch and post your price. Don't make someone guess how much you want.

[4815162342]

You have complained about this thread not being "productive" and a great waste of time, yet all you have added is half witted insults. You have a differing opinion than mine, and that's fine. A message boards main purpose is to discuss/debate issues at hand. And the results of this poll are a direct reflection of the collective opinions of the members who post here. And the results of this particular discussion speak loud and clear......even moreso, its also glaringly obvious that those who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. Much like a petulant child, being asked a question as to why....and all they can say...is BECAUSE! Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.



And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one. I would think that social skills, life experiences, level of intellect and self awareness would be a much better barometer of ones value to a message board.



Do you write auction lot descriptions for a living?

[T206Collector]

[T]hose who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. . . . Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

Not at all true. Plenty of legitimate reasons have been offered by me and others in this thread. The oversimplification as "shady" or "dishonest" of a complicated discussion into the various credible motivations behind priceless sales offers is not defensible.

[JollyElm]

Does common sense ever come into play on these boards?? Ever??

I don't sell anything here, so I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. But why in hell would you force people to list sell prices? The boards are filled with threads saying something to the effect of "Can you believe how much the (enter specific card here) sold by (enter AH or ebay seller name here) went for last night???" And the prices realized are always way over the top. So if someone is looking to sell a rare card, they want to get as much as they possibly can for it, don't they?? Capitalism. So there has to be some leeway with people looking to sell their goods here. If you're interested in the card, send the user a PM and negotiate with him. But, if for some reason you're upset or offended by this like an entitled little kid, then ignore people who don't list prices. Common frickin' sense.

And let's say you're able to convince Leon to make a rule forcing everyone to list a selling price on the B/S/T. The first thing I would do if I decided to sell anything would be to list it like this:
For Sale: Bernie Carbo rookie card for sale. $1,000,000 or best offer.

I posted a price, didn't I? The rule was obeyed. Now what? Are you going to lobby Leon to force people to list 'reasonable' selling prices now? And which of you people is going to be the official arbiter of what a reasonable price is, huh????

Come on!!!!!

[steve B]

And, at least to me, he is.

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

Likewise, it seems when new members come to the board and share new ideas/opinions, they are overlooked because they are new and they couldn't possibly know more than the 'respected and knowledgeable" board members who've been here for years. :rolleyes:


Interesting thoughts.

When I joined a while back I was happy to see a few names that were familiar to me from a long time ago. Not people I knew, but people I knew of. I've generally been an under the radar sort of collector. Partly because that's who I am until I'm comfortable with people or a group, partly because of budget. Can't really be a well known big wheel when my typical show budget is around $200. :D

My introduction was "interesting" I mentioned that I had some cards, and the response was literally" yeah right" Until I posted scans then it was a cautious "welcome to the club" It may be odd to some, but I found that attitude comforting.

Now I'm marginally familiar with a lot more of the sort of collectors I like, people with some knowledge, sometimes a LOT of knowledge. I don't always agree with everyone about everything, and that's normal. There's even (gasp!) a few people that I rarely find much agreement with. But most - in fact nearly all - have enough thinking behind their opinions that I can respect those opinions even if I don't agree.

Someone with a lot of posts has hopefully shown enough of their thinking and likes/dislikes and expertise to have earned that sort of respect. Someone with a handful of posts just hasn't got enough track record, so for them it's more a matter of considering their opinions. There are of course exceptions, people whose intros are a nice look at their collecting interests and experiences, and/or are well known to several members so there's a bit of street cred automatically.

Steve B

[irv]

I stated, in my prior post, that I disliked "Best offer" only posts, but that, in no way shape or form, means I agree and think that all posts/ads on here should have prices listed.

I was just stating what I disliked and what I preferred, but seeing as it's a free country and people can do what they want, I am OK with that. :)

[bobbvc]

The less rules you have, the less rules get broken. I think we have enough rules around here. Of course I'm not a moderator on the board but someone asked for opinions so there you go.

[CMIZ5290]

For this thread to go this long is absolutely unbelievable! I mean really, Are you kidding? Just when you thought you saw it all, well......No price listed, go about your business. What is the mystery? If you are really interested, wouldn't you inquire about the card????

[CMIZ5290]

Does common sense ever come into play on these boards?? Ever??

I don't sell anything here, so I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. But why in hell would you force people to list sell prices? The boards are filled with threads saying something to the effect of "Can you believe how much the (enter specific card here) sold by (enter AH or ebay seller name here) went for last night???" And the prices realized are always way over the top. So if someone is looking to sell a rare card, they want to get as much as they possibly can for it, don't they?? Capitalism. So there has to be some leeway with people looking to sell their goods here. If you're interested in the card, send the user a PM and negotiate with him. But, if for some reason you're upset or offended by this like an entitled little kid, then ignore people who don't list prices. Common frickin' sense.

And let's say you're able to convince Leon to make a rule forcing everyone to list a selling price on the B/S/T. The first thing I would do if I decided to sell anything would be to list it like this:
For Sale: Bernie Carbo rookie card for sale. $1,000,000 or best offer.

I posted a price, didn't I? The rule was obeyed. Now what? Are you going to lobby Leon to force people to list 'reasonable' selling prices now? And which of you people is going to be the official arbiter of what a reasonable price is, huh????

Come on!!!!!
+1, I hear you!!

[Jason]

Does common sense ever come into play on these boards?? Ever??

I don't sell anything here, so I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. But why in hell would you force people to list sell prices? The boards are filled with threads saying something to the effect of "Can you believe how much the (enter specific card here) sold by (enter AH or ebay seller name here) went for last night???" And the prices realized are always way over the top. So if someone is looking to sell a rare card, they want to get as much as they possibly can for it, don't they?? Capitalism. So there has to be some leeway with people looking to sell their goods here. If you're interested in the card, send the user a PM and negotiate with him. But, if for some reason you're upset or offended by this like an entitled little kid, then ignore people who don't list prices. Common frickin' sense.

And let's say you're able to convince Leon to make a rule forcing everyone to list a selling price on the B/S/T. The first thing I would do if I decided to sell anything would be to list it like this:
For Sale: Bernie Carbo rookie card for sale. $1,000,000 or best offer.

I posted a price, didn't I? The rule was obeyed. Now what? Are you going to lobby Leon to force people to list 'reasonable' selling prices now? And which of you people is going to be the official arbiter of what a reasonable price is, huh????

Come on!!!!!

Very good post. I have zero problem Pm'ing someone if I want the card listed. A lack of price would not deter me. Its slow going for my interests so I cant be picky.

[ullmandds]

For this thread to go this long is absolutely unbelievable! I mean really, Are you kidding? Just when you thought you saw it all, well......No price listed, go about your business. What is the mystery? If you are really interested, wouldn't you inquire about the card????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYM4jIxCJ14

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you are really interested, wouldn't you inquire about the card????

If a seller were interested in selling their card, wouldn't they post a price? We've had this conversation before about dealer tables at shows. Most agree they bypass dealer tables without prices. Why should a message board be different? If you and others want to waste your time on a card that may or not be for sale, by all means do it. I could care less. But don't make those of us that don't bother asking for a price (or scans) feel stupid for just moving on past those types of listings.

[bnorth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYM4jIxCJ14

Pete that is funny.:)

If a seller were interested in selling their card, wouldn't they post a price? We've had this conversation before about dealer tables at shows. Most agree they bypass dealer tables without prices. Why should a message board be different? If you and others want to waste your time on a card that may or not be for sale, by all means do it. I could care less. But don't make those of us that don't bother asking for a price (or scans) feel stupid for just moving on past those types of listings.

You are wasting your time common sense and hundreds of posts saying the same thing will not work on this subject.

[CMIZ5290]

I was wondering when these two assholes were going to rear their heads. My God, It's like a bad itch. I cant reach it......

[CMIZ5290]

Hey Pete- Get your ass off the ice fishing and weigh in!....

[ullmandds]

Hey Pete- Get your ass off the ice fishing and weigh in!....

I believe I did weigh in around post 33.

[ullmandds]

Let's make a new poll I think Kevin should have his own section!😬

[CMIZ5290]

I believe I did weigh in around post 33.

Was that the post where you said you actually bought a card from PWCC despite all of your criticism about them? :D I know you miss Wonka, I'm sure he misses you too....

[vintagetoppsguy]

I was wondering when these two assholes were going to rear their heads. My God, It's like a bad itch. I cant reach it......


Screw you, you obnoxious piece of shit prick. At least I can rear my head and it's not buried deep up my ass like yours is.

[CMIZ5290]

Screw you, you obnoxious piece of shit prick. At least I can rear my head and it's not buried deep up my ass like yours is.

Ouch, that hurt...

[ullmandds]

Wonka is missed!

And at this time just to summarize...an overwhelming majority of board members feel that prices should be mandatory for items for sale in the B/s/t.

Please commence bickering!

[CMIZ5290]

Pete- Fair enough, if Leon wants this I understand and will abide. Again, 90% or better of my threads have prices....

[FourStrikes]

.

[CMIZ5290]

what is a shit prick??

[CMIZ5290]

Wonka is missed!

And at this time just to summarize...an overwhelming majority of board members feel that prices should be mandatory for items for sale in the B/s/t.

Please commence bickering!

Like 6 cavities without pain killers.....

[Lordstan]

My two cents is this.

While I put prices in most of my listings I don't have a problem with ones without. If I see something I want, I'll ask. Simple really. Even if you are someone who passes by any listings without prices, I don't think it should be against the rules.

I think all the vitriol about not listing prices being underhanded is a bit dramatic. While I am sure there are people that are underhanded, I think the majority are just people who either aren't sure if they are clear as to the real market value or, they aren't clear if they really want to sell the item.

I think those that say that listing a price should be absolute and compare it to a dealer at a show, are missing out on the fact that most of the people buying and selling here aren't dealers. They are collectors who are mostly selling so they can buy something else. There is more than just an objective price to many items we own. For many there may be an emotional attachment to an item that makes it hard to price. Dealers who list items on the board for sale, like Richard Simon and Jim Stinson, buy and sell as a business, so for them, the majority of the items are strictly about profit and loss. For many of the collectors here, it may not be that simple and as such, establishing value may not be that simple.
Perhaps as a buyer, you couldn't care less about someones emotional attachment, but it may make a difference on whether they even offer a card up for sale at all.

While I understand some peoples frustrations, I hope Leon doesn't change the rules as I think it would lead to less listings and less stuff coming to market.

Best to all,
Mark

[the 'stache]

I would like sellers to post prices if they are interested in dealing a card they own. Based on the input submitted by many in this discussion, I think it's clear doing so would facilitate more business. However, I don't feel that they should be required to do so. There are so many factors that can drive a card's value one way or the other: centering, edge and corner quality, surface condition, focus, and color quality. Then, there is a card's relative rarity, as well as other considerations including stamps, signatures, errors, miscuts, and previous owners.

That being said, I don't have any problem with a collector putting a card up for sale without posting what specifically they are looking for. Maybe they just want to get an idea on what they could get for the card. They should have that option.

[bnorth]

Screw you, you obnoxious piece of shit prick. At least I can rear my head and it's not buried deep up my ass like yours is.

LOL, David I think Kevin was referring to Pete and myself. I am not sure because after the crazy barrage of PM's he sent me after he did not like my answers to questions he directed at me, this is all I see anymore from Kevin.

This message is hidden because CMIZ5290 is on your ignore list.:)

[Leon]

The less rules you have, the less rules get broken. I think we have enough rules around here. Of course I'm not a moderator on the board but someone asked for opinions so there you go.

This is how I feel (*except I moderate). ^

Lets keep the cussing to a minimum please. For the record there was never an iota of a chance of this pricing change happening. Never, nadda.....not on this watch. I do like the debate to get everyone's thoughts though. If it was about 90 percent to 10 in favor of doing it, I would consider it. I can't imagine implementing it but I would consider it. Carry on.....

[vintagetoppsguy]

LOL, David I think Kevin was referring to Pete and myself.

I thought he was referring to me and you since we were the 2 previous posters before his post. Either way, it doesn't negate the fact that he's still an obnoxious prick.

[ColumbiaComics]

Yes. Makes it easier on potential buyers

[Danny Smith]

I really don't care but it is a little annoying when there is no price or even a starting point for offers. Posts with no prices or pics are generally ignored.

[T206Collector]

I view the results of the poll as about dead even -- 50% would require prices and the other 50% don't care or want to keep the status quo.

[ullmandds]

I view the results of the poll as about dead even -- 50% would require prices and the other 50% don't care or want to keep the status quo.

Personally I view an I don't care vote as a non-vote. If in the presidential election one does not care enough to cast a vote because they do not like either option that to me is the same thing. I don't care is pretty much the same as not voting at all! Just my .02

[pbspelly]

I never buy or sell anything on the B/S/T forum, so I really don't care a whole lot. But from a mostly disinterested point of view, I really don't understand the argument that sellers ask for offers when they "don't have a clue" what the value of the card is. If the seller doesn't have a clue what the value of the card is, how would that seller decide whether to accept someone's offer? How would that seller decide whether an offer is fair or not?

From my (admittedly non-participatory) perspective, this argument just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Is the idea that, well, a seller has some idea of what it is worth to himself, so he just want to see what everyone else thinks, and if it is worth significantly more to others than it is to him than he will sell?

[ullmandds]

I never buy or sell anything on the B/S/T forum, so I really don't care a whole lot. But from a mostly disinterested point of view, I really don't understand the argument that sellers ask for offers when they "don't have a clue" what the value of the card is. If the seller doesn't have a clue what the value of the card is, how would that seller decide whether to accept someone's offer? How would that seller decide whether an offer is fair or not?

From my (admittedly non-participatory) perspective, this argument just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Is the idea that, well, a seller has some idea of what it is worth to himself, so he just want to see what everyone else thinks, and if it is worth significantly more to others than it is to him than he will sell?

the sellers almost always have a clue...despite creative wording.

price guides have become useless in this hobby...but we have much better, more accurate up to the minute available to us.

the problem is the prices are often manipulated so true values are fuzzy!

[ullmandds]

additionally...I think a lot of folks on this board who actively try to buy and sell at a profit think profits are a sure thing...that its unacceptable to lose money on a deal.

and this is not reality!

[bn2cardz]

I view the results of the poll as about dead even -- 50% would require prices and the other 50% don't care or want to keep the status quo.

Personally I view an I don't care vote as a non-vote. If in the presidential election one does not care enough to cast a vote because they do not like either option that to me is the same thing. I don't care is pretty much the same as not voting at all! Just my .02

According to Robert's Rule The abstentions could go either way but in usual rules it would not count and the Aye and Nays would be the only votes that matter. Yet it also states that if the vote requires a majority (or 2/3) of votes present, then the abstentions would count as a nay. So it really depends on the person conducting the vote and how they want to count the abstentions.

[jfkheat]

For this thread to go this long is absolutely unbelievable! I mean really, Are you kidding? Just when you thought you saw it all, well......No price listed, go about your business. What is the mystery? If you are really interested, wouldn't you inquire about the card????

Please correct me if I am wrong concerning the card that got all of this started, didn't a couple members ask for prices but weren't given one?
James

[bnorth]

Please correct me if I am wrong concerning the card that got all of this started, didn't a couple members ask for prices but weren't given one?
James

I hate to defend Kevin but maybe he did not want to sell to those people. Nothing wrong with that as there are people I will not buy from or sell to.

I also took this poll as an opinion on price vs no price in listings and not for a second did I think it was about adding a new rule to the forum making anyone add prices.

[Lordstan]

Personally I view an I don't care vote as a non-vote. If in the presidential election one does not care enough to cast a vote because they do not like either option that to me is the same thing. I don't care is pretty much the same as not voting at all! Just my .02

Actually, upon thinking about how the question was phrased, I think that a vote for I don't care is a Yes.
The poll question is "Should for sale listings be allowed in the b/s/t without prices?"
If you say you don't care, it means you have a no opinion. If you have no opinion, then the answer can't be no, because that would mean you do have an opinion. The same doesn't quite hold true on the other side because the behavior is currently allowed. Therefore, you can infer that the voter with no opinion is OK with the current system, which is an affirmative answer.

I think that he should've left out the I don't care choice. If he had I think most of the IDC's would have been Yes'.

[Leon]

The poll question is- "Should members be allowed to post for sale listings in the b/s/t without a price?"

Please help me understand how that wouldn't be adding a rule? That is the way I took it but maybe I misunderstood the question?

If the question were ONLY should sellers put prices, then I would have answered yes instead of no to that question. I answered yes to the poll question as I believe there shouldn't be a rule about it, as already stated.

....

I also took this poll as an opinion on price vs no price in listings and not for a second did I think it was about adding a new rule to the forum making anyone add prices.

[bnorth]

The poll question is- "Should members be allowed to post for sale listings in the b/s/t without a price?"

Please help me understand how that wouldn't be adding a rule? That is the way I took it but maybe I misunderstood the question?

If the question were ONLY should sellers put prices, then I would have answered yes instead of no to that question. I answered yes to the poll question as I believe there shouldn't be a rule about it, as already stated.

I somehow didn't notice the ALLOWED part. Not my first mistake and sure it won't be my last.

100% my fault as I was posting and responding in this thread as if it peoples opinions and not to change any rule.

[pokerplyr80]

The poll question is- "Should members be allowed to post for sale listings in the b/s/t without a price?"

Please help me understand how that wouldn't be adding a rule? That is the way I took it but maybe I misunderstood the question?

If the question were ONLY should sellers put prices, then I would have answered yes instead of no to that question. I answered yes to the poll question as I believe there shouldn't be a rule about it, as already stated.

Based on the discussion that was already taking place I thought it would be interesting to take a poll on whether or not sellers should be allowed to post listings without prices. A lot of the people who commented said they wish listings contained prices but are not in favor of more rules or forcing members to do something. I believe that if the poll simply asked should sellers list prices with their cards the results would be quite different with most agreeing that listings should have prices.

[Lordstan]

Based on the discussion that was already taking place I thought it would be interesting to take a poll on whether or not sellers should be allowed to post listings without prices. A lot of the people who commented said they wish listings contained prices but are not in favor of more rules or forcing members to do something. I believe that if the poll simply asked should sellers list prices with their cards the results would be quite different with most agreeing that listings should have prices.

Agreed, but I think a bunch of people would've still answered I don't care. I know my answer(IDC) was based more on that question than the one you asked. If I had read it closely, I would've def answered no.

[xplainer]

Well, stupid me thought you HAD to put a price on a card for sale. All the other forums I am involved with, that is a rule. I guess you can flaunt a card here, and it dosen't bring the dollars you want, you can move on.
I might want to exploit that seam.

[Kenny Cole]

What a tempest in a teapot. I'm an IDC, as I stated very early on. If a price isn't listed I simply move on because if the seller can't figure out what he/she wants for it, or is simply fishing, I'm not interested and don't feel like wasting my time. I never have and I don't see that changing.

That being said, if others feel differently, that's great too. I don't care means just that. I really don't get all the hot feelings that seem to have generated over this thread. If this is the biggest issue that we face as collectors, and it absolutely isn't, we're doing really well. Be happy and collect what you want, how you want. Its supposed to be fun. Its a freaking hobby, not life and death.

Kenny

[RichardSimon]

Too much of this can go on when no price is listed:


Seller: I have XYZ for sale.
Buyer: I will pay $100
Seller: no response
Buyer #2: I will pay $125
Seller: no response
Buyer #3: How much do you want?
Seller: $150
Buyer #3: No thanks.
Seller: Ok, buyer #2 it is yours.

I don't do business like that.
I have always posted prices in the BST when I was selling something.
If some want to work that way, go ahead but it is snarky IMO.