Vintage Racing?

[Beansballcardblog]

I've taken a look around and can't find a place that might have any vintage racing, whether in a B/S/T or a general talk area. I know interest is limited, but thought I'd see if anyone had an answer and could guide me.

I've picked up a few T36 cards so far and just a few of the 1960's Indianapolis 500 cards.

If anyone knows anything, help is greatly appreciated!

-kin

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a T227 Mulford. I have a lot from the Auto Drivers series and will try and post some scans later in the week. I guess the Soccer/Golf/Cricket section might be a good place to add auto and horse racing cards...

[Bored5000]

I've taken a look around and can't find a place that might have any vintage racing, whether in a B/S/T or a general talk area. I know interest is limited, but thought I'd see if anyone had an answer and could guide me.

I've picked up a few T36 cards so far and just a few of the 1960's Indianapolis 500 cards.

If anyone knows anything, help is greatly appreciated!

-kin

I have been a huge racing fan my entire life. My parents took me to my first dirt-track race when i was just a few months old and racing has always been a huge part of my family.

I assume you are talking the Marhoefer Meats sets of Indy cards from the 1960s?

I am not sure what you consider "vintage" as far as racing cards go. But I have had some iconic racing cards on my want list for a while now. It's tough because the same cards sit on eBay forever as BINs and the major cards rarely to never pop up at all.

I have looked for a while now for an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer's card at auction, but I never even see a Foyt card for sale individually from the set. Same thing for the iconic cards from the landmark 1972 STP NASCAR set. The same cards sit on eBay forever (Buddy Baker, Elmo Langley, Dave Marcis), but Richard Petty, Bobby Allison and Fred Lorenzen virtually never pop up. Lorenzen with car from the 1972 STP set is one of the all-time great rarities of all racing cards, to the point that there was some doubt as to whether or not it was even distributed at all up until a few years ago.

I was the underbidder on a 1986 Dale Earnhardt SportsStar Photographics card on eBay a few weeks ago. That is one of the iconic racing cards to be had. It is scarce, but it at least pops up more than the cards I mentioned previously.

Stark and Wetzel also produced a series of Indy cards in the mid 1950s. There are a bunch of them on eBay that have been there for a long time as BINs.

But, yea, it is a difficult process trying to find vintage racing cards of big name drivers -- anything that predates the 1988 MAXX era of overproduction.

[Beansballcardblog]

Didn't even know about these cards. I'm still new in the vintage area. Thanks for that info!

Here's a T227 Mulford. I have a lot from the Auto Drivers series and will try and post some scans later in the week. I guess the Soccer/Golf/Cricket section might be a good place to add auto and horse racing cards...

[Jobu]

This is not mine, but I have always thought that this was about as cool of a crossover vintage baseball/vintage racing item as you can get (and maybe the only one!):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1920s-CASE-MOTOR-CARS-Barney-Oldfield-Joe-Tinker-POST-CARD-Real-Photo-/152035240318?hash=item236601a97e:g:93MAAOSwGYVW~JC 8

[pariah1107]

I collect central Washington racing photos, memorabilia, and programs (moslty from the CWJRA 1946-1967). Here's an image of the "Ole Death Car" driven by Robert Zylstra 1936 Central Washington Fairgrounds (Yakima, WA).

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w415/pariah1107/1936YakimaFairgroundsSpeedwayDriverUnknown_zps0582 e47b.jpg

[brian1961]

While I do not collect the trading cards produced of Indianapolis 500 cars and drivers, nor the English tobacco card inserts of racing greats (Tazio Nuvolari and John Cobb come to mind), I sure respect you guys for doing so. Racers and the bigger stars, the cars, have always had a huge pull on the sporting world.

Before I got interested in baseball cards, I became enraptured with the beauty of collecting Dinky Toys, 1/43rd scale model cars of the real thing, in the late 1950s. They began as O scale train accessories, but the public and especially children loved them so much just for themselves. A whole new collecting niche spawned. In time, frustrated collectors yearned for, demanded, and got, 1/43rd scale metal and resin model cars of the actual Indy cars, racing sports cars, Grand Prix racers, and Stock Cars that fluttered their heart, and moved them with the same passion as any baseball card ever could!

Here's hoping you chaps get many more responses from other interested collectors, as well as those who don't care for them, but happen to have some that belonged to their father or grandfather that they'd be willing to part with for the right price.

Regards, Brian Powell

[RTK]

I've been a race fan most of my life, primarily Indy (CART & Champcar) and F1. ...saw my first race in 1963 when I was very young at the Miwaukee Mile. Since the split in '95 I haven't followed Indy much but still maintain an extensive collection of Indy and F1 diecast. The old Carousel diecast roadsters were great. I also have a number of signed photos from the 50's through 90's, race programs and vintage Indy 500 ticket stubs. Some of my finished basement that isn't baseball, is racing. I don't have any racing cards though. Open wheel racing has a great history, much like baseball, unfortunately the sport seems to be on the down slope.

[Bored5000]

Here is a thread that discusses the 1972 STP NASCAR set and the great rarity that is "Lorenzen with car" from that set. I have seen the comparison made several times that the 1972 STP set is the T206 of racing cards in terms of impact.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1393855077/last-1395036292/Be+careful+what+you+wish+for+%3B)

Another article that discusses the STP set and the extreme rarity that is "Lorenzen with car." PSA has currently graded one example of that card. The link even includes a picture to prove that the card actually exists. I know that Lorenzen with car is the holy grail from that set, but in at least three years of scouring eBay, I have never seen a Richard Petty card or a Bobby Allison card or a Dick Brooks card or a Charlie Glotzbach card from that set for sale, either.

https://sportscardinfo.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/flashback-product-of-the-week-1972-stp/

Thread in which one of the top racing card collectors is offering to pay just for a scan of the "Lorenzen with car" card.

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=11&threadid=808017&enterthread=y

[Bored5000]

Here is a link to a 2010 Huggins and Scott auction for a complete set of 1962 Marhoefer Meats Indy cards. (Marhoefer was a Muncie, Ind., company that produced Indy cards of the current drivers for four years in the early 1960s). The cards are frequently stained from being packaged alongside hot dogs. I have read in the past that many of the cards were thrown out by mothers who disapproved of the smell of the cards due to juice from the wieners soaking the cards. I so wish i would have seen this auction when it was live. The set sold for under $200 with the BP. I have read of Foyt Marhoefer cards alone selling for more than that.

http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=25091

The set has been up for sale on eBay on and off for a long time as a BIN at $1,295. :(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Marhoefer-Wiener-Meats-Auto-Racing-Comp-Set-16-NICE-AJ-Foyt-Rodger-Ward-/361501511441?hash=item542b2b4f11%3Ag%3ARCQAAOSwhwd VUqdI&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Here is a link to an auction of a complete set of T36 cards that sold for a little over $700 at Huggins and Scott in 2014. Considering how scarce both the Marhoefer's cards and the T36s are, it is amazing that both sets have had a complete set at auction within the past six years.

http://feb14.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=65307

[Bored5000]

Here is a fascinating thread in which the top 20 most desirable NASCAR cards are ranked. The list is exclusively NASCAR, so nothing predates the '72 STP set, but it is a fascinating list. The top 10:

1. 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphics Dale Earnhardt
2. 1992 Traxs Autograph Petty/Earnhardt
3. 1983 UNO Dale Earnhardt
4. 1989 Maxx Dale Earnhardt
5. 1972 STP Richard Petty
6. 1988 Maxx Dale Earnhardt
7. 1972 STP Bobby Allison
8. 1972 STP Fred Lorenzen (I assume this is the "with car" example. The explanation that accompanies the card's description says that the card is on a slow move toward No. 1 on the list as collectors learn more about the 1972 STP set in general and the extreme rarity of "Lorenzen with car").
9. 1988 Maxx (Charlotte & Myrtle Beach) Cover Card
10. 1991 Traks Jeff Gordon

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=11&threadid=851215

I am not a fan at all of having the dual autograph card of Earnhardt and Petty listed so high. I have also seen other lists that have the '72 STP Petty card ranked at No. 2 behind the '86 SportsStar Photographic card of Earnhardt.

Earnhardt's' rookie card actually comes from the 1983 UNO set. Not much is known about that set, but it is a 30-card set with driver images on one side and a standard UNO playing card on the other side. I am not really a huge fan of the set, since they do seem kind of cheesy. But that is the generally-accepted Earnhardt rookie card (he does have some earlier postcards).

The 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphic set is also obscure, but the Earnhardt card from that set usually sells for more than the UNO card (the SportsStar card is also a lot more scarce than the UNO card). I was the underbidder on an Earnhardt SportsStar card that sold for $327 a few weeks ago, and I kick myself for not sniping higher. :(

In 1988, MAXX entered the racing card game with sets produced in huge quantities. MAXX sets from either of those years are very, very common, but the Earnhardt card is still very desirable because they are his first "mainstream" card releases. The 1988 Earnhardt MAXX card is also famous for never being officially released until 1994. MAXX had the card all ready for release, but was unable to come to a licensing agreement with Earnhardt. As a result, the card was dropped from release at the last minute.

Some copies of the '88 Earnhardt MAXX card did slip out, but six years later, 999 numbered copies of the card were officially released. The MAXX sets were huge (both in quantity and impact), but I am not a huge fan of them from a collecting standpoint because they are so common and easy to find. The Earnhardt MAXX cards are a bit like the '52T Mantle in that there are tons of them around, but the MAXX Earnhardt cards are iconic and what many people first think of when they think of an Earnhardt card.

[Beansballcardblog]

I'm certainly intrigued and someday would like to complete sets like the 1911 ATC (T36), 1960 Hawes Wax Indy, 1954 Stark & Wetzel and definitely the Marhoefer set.

I've definitely noticed what you say about cards sitting on eBay. I have recently bought two of the Ralph DePalmas. I won two others at auction, for much less than the "asking" prices of the others. I will definitely take my time on it.

Thank you for the info on the Foyt Marhoefer card. I have only been looking for a couple of months, but have been waiting to it (alone) to come available. Looks like I will be waiting awhile.

I have been a huge racing fan my entire life. My parents took me to my first dirt-track race when i was just a few months old and racing has always been a huge part of my family.

I assume you are talking the Marhoefer Meats sets of Indy cards from the 1960s?

I am not sure what you consider "vintage" as far as racing cards go. But I have had some iconic racing cards on my want list for a while now. It's tough because the same cards sit on eBay forever as BINs and the major cards rarely to never pop up at all.

I have looked for a while now for an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer's card at auction, but I never even see a Foyt card for sale individually from the set. Same thing for the iconic cards from the landmark 1972 STP NASCAR set. The same cards sit on eBay forever (Buddy Baker, Elmo Langley, Dave Marcis), but Richard Petty, Bobby Allison and Fred Lorenzen virtually never pop up. Lorenzen with car from the 1972 STP set is one of the all-time great rarities of all racing cards, to the point that there was some doubt as to whether or not it was even distributed at all up until a few years ago.

I was the underbidder on a 1986 Dale Earnhardt SportsStar Photographics card on eBay a few weeks ago. That is one of the iconic racing cards to be had. It is scarce, but it at least pops up more than the cards I mentioned previously.

Stark and Wetzel also produced a series of Indy cards in the mid 1950s. There are a bunch of them on eBay that have been there for a long time as BINs.

But, yea, it is a difficult process trying to find vintage racing cards of big name drivers -- anything that predates the 1988 MAXX era of overproduction.

[Beansballcardblog]

That is pretty cool! Since there isn't a lot of vintage racing out there, I've started taking an interest in post cards.

This is not mine, but I have always thought that this was about as cool of a crossover vintage baseball/vintage racing item as you can get (and maybe the only one!):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1920s-CASE-MOTOR-CARS-Barney-Oldfield-Joe-Tinker-POST-CARD-Real-Photo-/152035240318?hash=item236601a97e:g:93MAAOSwGYVW~JC 8

[Bored5000]

I'm certainly intrigued and someday would like to complete sets like the 1911 ATC (T36), 1960 Hawes Wax Indy, 1954 Stark & Wetzel and definitely the Marhoefer set.

I've definitely noticed what you say about cards sitting on eBay. I have recently bought two of the Ralph DePalmas. I won two others at auction, for much less than the "asking" prices of the others. I will definitely take my time on it.

Thank you for the info on the Foyt Marhoefer card. I have only been looking for a couple of months, but have been waiting to it (alone) to come available. Looks like I will be waiting awhile.

I forgot to mention the Hawes Wax set in my earlier posts. The Hawes Wax set and the Stark & Wetzel set are both great looking sets, but cards rarely come up for auction from either set. The same cards just sit on eBay forever as BINs from the same one or two sellers.

In recent years, I have developed an interest in some of the iconic racing cards/sets and non-sports cards because many iconic/extremely rare vintage baseball cards are out of my price range. This is not a criticism at all of anyone who collects T206s or '33 Goudeys or '52 Topps baseball cards. Everyone should collect what they like. But I get as much of a thrill at finding a really rare card that might only be worth $200-300 as someone gets from buying a T206 Cobb or a '33 Goudey Ruth that is easy to find. :)

I saw that a DePalma T36 card sold recently on eBay. I did not realize you were the buyer.

[Bored5000]

Hopefully, I don't jink myself, but I am stoked. :) I don't have the card in hand yet (obviously), but I picked up one of the cards near the top of my want list on Monday night -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. The Petty card is not quite as rare as some of the other iconic cards we have discussed earlier (PSA has graded 10 of them without an autograph and another 12 Petty STP cards that have been autographed), but this was the first '72 Petty STP card I have seen on eBay in several years. The '72 STP set is a great looking set, but about half the cards never appear for sale.

I have never seen an Allison, Glotzbach, Brooks or Lorenzen with car '72 STP card for sale on eBay. More and more people kept "watching" the listing on eBay as time went by on Monday. I was hoping I didn't screw myself by putting in a best offer instead of buying the card as a BIN.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152039963594?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Bored5000]

That is pretty cool! Since there isn't a lot of vintage racing out there, I've started taking an interest in post cards.

If you keep an eye out on eBay, you can pick up some old postcards of some huge names in NASCAR for next to nothing. I don't have the listings saved in my eBay watch list anymore, but a few months ago, there were postcard listings from the 1960s of Fireball Roberts, Joe Weatherly, Ned Jarrett, Lee and Richard Petty, etc. that sold for under $50 each at auction. Old postcards from the 1960s of NASCAR stars do show up from time to time on eBay.

There was also a 1980 Dale Earnhardt postcard of him with the Rod Osterlund car that sold for just over $100 a couple months ago on eBay. That pre-dates his SportsStar Photo-Graphics and UNO cards by several years, but sells for much less than his SSPG card or even a high-grade MAXX card of Earnhardt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DALE-EARNHARDT-NASCAR-1980-Promo-Card-Osterlund-Racing-/222005202547?hash=item33b08a8e73:g:ggIAAOSwKtlWpXJ-

[Bored5000]

I don't know if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore, but one of the cards near the top of my want list arrived today -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. Like I wrote earlier, it took several years of searching for me to find a Petty card from the '72 STP set. The seller was amazing, perhaps the best seller I have ever dealt with on eBay. The seller was an older lady and she sent me a two-page letter discussing her collection and detailing that she acquired the card as a handout from an STP rep while at the 1972 Daytona 500 (which corresponds with everything I have ever read about how the set was distributed).

She wrote that it took her 25 years to complete the set (11 cards) because she could not find the near-mythical Lorenzen with car card. Over the years, she traded/bought/sold various cards from the STP set. The Lorenzen with car card she finally located at a racing memorabilia show has a thumbtack hole, but it was the only one she has ever seen. She wanted to put together a second full set but is stuck at 10 cards due to never being able to find a second Lorenzen with car card.

As I mentioned earlier, the '72 STP Petty card is always ranked somewhere in the top five among the most desirable of all NASCAR cards or racing cards in general.

Scans of the Petty card that just arrived in my mailbox on Friday:

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20front04092016_zps7p710qe2. jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20front04092016_zps7p710qe2. jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back04092016_zpsv12kfhcw.j pg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back04092016_zpsv12kfhcw.j pg.html)

[RCMcKenzie]

Eddie, nice acquisition and thanks for the info on that set. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of NASCAR and was a huge David Pearson fan. I'll be a bidder on the auto drivers set in REA, if i can't win the Just So Zimmer.
Again, I think there are are a few auto racing collectors on here and maybe we can take over a sub-category like the soccer one. RMY photos auctions always has some cool racing stuff up for bid....Rob

[Bored5000]

Thanks for the kind words, Rob. I don't quite understand why the STP set does not include David Pearson, perhaps because he was not running the full series anymore by that point. But by '72, he had already been a three-time series champion. Seems like he would have been an obvious choice for the set.

I did see that REA has a full set of T36s up for auction. I have a few other bids in at REA that will almost certainly get blown out of the water. I do wish the T36 set was offered as a stand-alone item rather than in conjunction with the T37 set. I hope that someone on here that will appreciate the set does win the T36s at REA as opposed to someone looking to break it up for resale.

[Beansballcardblog]

Congrats on the pickup!


Hopefully, I don't jink myself, but I am stoked. :) I don't have the card in hand yet (obviously), but I picked up one of the cards near the top of my want list on Monday night -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. The Petty card is not quite as rare as some of the other iconic cards we have discussed earlier (PSA has graded 10 of them without an autograph and another 12 Petty STP cards that have been autographed), but this was the first '72 Petty STP card I have seen on eBay in several years. The '72 STP set is a great looking set, but about half the cards never appear for sale.

I have never seen an Allison, Glotzbach, Brooks or Lorenzen with car '72 STP card for sale on eBay. More and more people kept "watching" the listing on eBay as time went by on Monday. I was hoping I didn't screw myself by putting in a best offer instead of buying the card as a BIN.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152039963594?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Beansballcardblog]

Thanks for sharing that backstory on the card as well. It reminds me a bit of an "American Pickers" type thing where there is a great story attached to an item. I believe that's a big part of my appeal to the vintage - the actual history. I had almost left the hobby (modern cards aren't fun for me anymore), but instead have just moved onto collecting vintage, however slow it may be.


I don't know if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore, but one of the cards near the top of my want list arrived today -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. Like I wrote earlier, it took several years of searching for me to find a Petty card from the '72 STP set. The seller was amazing, perhaps the best seller I have ever dealt with on eBay. The seller was an older lady and she sent me a two-page letter discussing her collection and detailing that she acquired the card as a handout from an STP rep while at the 1972 Daytona 500 (which corresponds with everything I have ever read about how the set was distributed).

She wrote that it took her 25 years to complete the set (11 cards) because she could not find the near-mythical Lorenzen with car card. Over the years, she traded/bought/sold various cards from the STP set. The Lorenzen with car card she finally located at a racing memorabilia show has a thumbtack hole, but it was the only one she has ever seen. She wanted to put together a second full set but is stuck at 10 cards due to never being able to find a second Lorenzen with car card.

As I mentioned earlier, the '72 STP Petty card is always ranked somewhere in the top five among the most desirable of all NASCAR cards or racing cards in general.

Scans of the Petty card that just arrived in my mailbox on Friday:

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20front04092016_zps7p710qe2. jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20front04092016_zps7p710qe2. jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back04092016_zpsv12kfhcw.j pg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back04092016_zpsv12kfhcw.j pg.html)

[pawpawdiv9]

Cool stuff. I was a Nascar collector until around early 2000's, just a few yrs after Earnhardt Sr.s death...I just couldt see myself collect anymore. Just this yr, I slowly began listing some things in my collection, such as signed programs, cards/autos, and some diecast. Just listed a few things this past few days...sometimes you cant believe what you h-o-a-r-d. Love reading theres other collectors other than baseball. I always been intrigued at the oddball stuff in the back of the AH books.

[Bored5000]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I can now provide some additional information about the '72 STP set. The woman who I bought the Richard Petty card from included her phone number in the letter she sent me and invited me to call her to find out more information from her. She is 75 years old and does not do e-mail. Her daughter was the one that listed the card on eBay for her because the seller does not do anything with computers.

I felt really weird calling this older lady who I had never met before, but at the same time, I did not want to appear rude by not calling her when she wrote in her letter that she loves discussing the STP set and her collection.

I feel like I learned some stuff from her that even other collectors of the set probably do not know. Like I wrote earlier, she acquired the cards at Daytona in 1972. The cards were on a table and fans could take what they wanted. Seemingly, few people were even interested in picking up the free cards that were available. Every card was available except for the Lorenzen with car card. She did not even learn about that card until several years after the fact and believes that card was released at a later date from the other cards.

In the 1980s, she ran a couple ads in various racing publications looking to buy/trade cards from the '72 STP set. Most of the people who contacted her were looking to buy cards they were missing, however, not sell any. At one time, she had 45 total STP cards. She bought/sold/traded cards over the years and has slowly sold all her cards other than her one full set that she is keeping. She agrees that the Elmo Langley, Buddy Baker and Dave Marcis cards are more common than the rest of the set. She has never met or talked with another person who has the Lorenzen with car card. She had four of the Lorenzen portrait cards at one time. About five years ago, she had her daughter list a Lorenzen portrait card, a Bobby Allison card and a Richard Petty card for sale individually on eBay. They all sold within 30 minutes of being posted on eBay.

The seller was a huge David Pearson fan in the 1960s and '70s and also wondered why he was not included in the set. In addition, she always wondered why Fred Lorenzen (even though he was sponsored by STP at the time) has two cards in the set.

She said that she had given up on ever finding a Lorenzen with car card. She attended numerous racing trade shows/card shows at Daytona and Charlotte, but no one ever had that card. Even most NASCAR card vendors did not know that card existed. She could not believe her eyes when she finally found the Lorenzen with car card at a racing show at Stafford Motor Speedway in her home state of Connecticut. She also said she heard over the years that the cards were available at Talladega in 1972, but did not know if that was true or not.

About 25 years ago, she called STP and inquired if they had any cards from the '72 set for sale or could give her a lead on a Lorenzen with car card. She talked with a couple different people at STP, and they did not have any idea what she was even talking about. She finally talked with an employee at STP that was at least familiar with the cards, but said they were a free promotional item that the company never tracked or kept additional cards in stock once they were gone.

When the seller was younger, she attended several of the card shows at White Plains., N.Y. She has some vintage baseball cards (the conversation went back to the STP cards and I forgot to ask her about her baseball cards), but racing was her first love. She stopped collecting baseball because the cards became too expensive.

For all the scammers and rip-off artists that populate eBay, it is amazing to encounter someone like that selling cards on eBay. The seller reminded me of my grandmother from when I was young. She had a very Jefferson Burdick-like philosophy that the thrill was in collecting and the hunt. But I suppose racing cards aren't very popular with scammers because even the iconic. impossible to find cards are only worth a few hundred dollars each,

[Bored5000]

Sorry, double post. Not that this is really a big deal, but the blue mark that is shown the back scan of the Petty card I posted earlier was a spot on the protective case, not on the card itself.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back%202%2004102016_zpsqsk 6uku6.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/Richard%20Petty%20STP/STP%20Richard%20Petty%20back%202%2004102016_zpsqsk 6uku6.jpg.html)

[Beansballcardblog]

Thank you for that additional post, Eddie. I'm not into NASCAR anymore, but was from the mid-90s to mid-2000s. However, I have such an appreciation for the history. Sometimes I feel like I'm one of those "old souls." I have loved every bit of reading about this.

I am adding the Bobby Allison to my want list. Hopefully, one will come up some day. I'm an IndyCar guy and since he raced in the Indy 500, it would be a great addition. I would gladly take one that's "well loved." I have some of those in my football collection, no need to be picky on the racing collection.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I can now provide some additional information about the '72 STP set. The woman who I bought the Richard Petty card from included her phone number in the letter she sent me and invited me to call her to find out more information from her. She is 75 years old and does not do e-mail. Her daughter was the one that listed the card on eBay for her because the seller does not do anything with computers.

I felt really weird calling this older lady who I had never met before, but at the same time, I did not want to appear rude by not calling her when she wrote in her letter that she loves discussing the STP set and her collection.

I feel like I learned some stuff from her that even other collectors of the set probably do not know. Like I wrote earlier, she acquired the cards at Daytona in 1972. The cards were on a table and fans could take what they wanted. Seemingly, few people were even interested in picking up the free cards that were available. Every card was available except for the Lorenzen with car card. She did not even learn about that card until several years after the fact and believes that card was released at a later date from the other cards.

In the 1980s, she ran a couple ads in various racing publications looking to buy/trade cards from the '72 STP set. Most of the people who contacted her were looking to buy cards they were missing, however, not sell any. At one time, she had 45 total STP cards. She bought/sold/traded cards over the years and has slowly sold all her cards other than her one full set that she is keeping. She agrees that the Elmo Langley, Buddy Baker and Dave Marcis cards are far more common than the rest of the set. She has never met or talked with another person who has the Lorenzen with car card. She had four of the Lorenzen portrait cards at one time. About five years ago, she had her daughter list a Lorenzen portrait card, a Bobby Allison card and a Richard Petty card for sale individually on eBay. They all sold within 30 minutes of being posted on eBay.

The seller was a huge David Pearson fan in the 1960s and '70s and also wondered why he was not included in the set. In addition, she always wondered why Fred Lorenzen (even though he was sponsored by STP at the time) has two cards in the set.

She said that she had given up on ever finding a Lorenzen with car card. She attended numerous racing trade shows/card shows at Daytona and Charlotte, but no one ever had that card. Even most NASCAR card vendors did not know that card existed. She could not believe her eyes when she finally found the Lorenzen with car card at a racing show at Stafford Motor Speedway in her home state of Connecticut. She also said she heard over the years that the cards were available at Talladega in 1972, but did not know if that was true or not.

About 25 years ago, she called STP and inquired if they had any cards from the '72 set for sale or could give her a lead on a Lorenzen with car card. She talked with a couple different people at STP, and they did not have any idea what she was even talking about. She finally talked with an employee at STP that was at least familiar with the cards, but said they were a free promotional item that the company never tracked or kept additional cards in stock once they were gone.

When the seller was younger, she attended several of the card shows at White Plains., N.Y. She has some vintage baseball cards (the conversation went back to the STP cards and I forgot to ask her about her baseball cards), but racing was her first love. She stopped collecting baseball because the cards became too expensive.

For all the scammers and rip-off artists that populate eBay, it is amazing to encounter someone like that selling cards on eBay. The seller reminded me of my grandmother from when I was young. She had a very Jefferson Burdick-like philosophy that the thrill was in collecting and the hunt. But I suppose racing cards aren't very popular with scammers because even the iconic. impossible to find cards are only worth a few hundred dollars each,

[Bored5000]

Thanks. WVU. The seller also said that she had several of her cards signed over the years at autograph sessions (Petty, Allison, Marcis, Langley) Some of the other people she knew who collected cards told her she was ruining her cards by getting them signed, but she wanted them signed anyway. Her complete set is clean and does not contain autographs.

She believes the reason there seems to be a lot of Elmo Langley cards around is because he had a stash of his card that he would hand out after his career had ended and he was driving the pace car for NASCAR.

This can't be said of many items on eBay, but perhaps she has left some money on the table by offering her cards as BINs rather than at auction. I don't know if I overpaid, underpaid or paid just right for the Petty card? The Baker, Langley and Marcis cards can be had on eBay for well under $100 a card. I had never seen a '72 Petty card for sale before and SMR does not even list prices for the STP cards that rarely/never sell at auction.

The seller said she thinks her complete set would be worth $1,500-2,000 if she ever decided to sell it. I guess that number is probably in the ballpark, but who knows? The Lorenzen with car card is like hunting a unicorn. The mere inclusion of that card, even in damaged condition, could drive the price higher. :confused: I know racing is nowhere near as popular or collected as other sports/subjects, but crazy things happen when unicorns like the William McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set or Rocky Graziano from the 1948 Leaf boxing set go to auction in otherwise "affordable" sets.

Bobby Allison is also tough in the STP set. I realize that not everyone chooses to get their cards graded and some raw cards buried in collections are out there yet, but PSA has only graded three Bobby Allison cards. The PSA graded population for the STP set has been stuck at 74 total cards among the 11 different cards for a while now.

[nsaddict]

If you click on the non-sport card icon, top right corner of this main page, you will find many threads on this subject. One collector has been collecting these type cards for 30 years and is very knowledgeable about every set printed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/tortie425/media/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg.html)

[Bored5000]

If you click on the non-sport card icon, top right corner of this main page, you will find many threads on this subject. One collector has been collecting these type cards for 30 years and is very knowledgeable about every set printed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/tortie425/media/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg.html)

Wow, thanks. The whole time I have been posting on this site, I never noticed that link or even realized that the non-sports board was still active or existed anymore. One of the earlier threads I linked to in this thread was a link to a Jon Hardgrove thread about finally acquiring a Lorenzen with car card after 28 years of searching that I found through a Google search.

[Beansballcardblog]

I wouldn't have even checked "non-sports" for racing. Thank you for the info!

If you click on the non-sport card icon, top right corner of this main page, you will find many threads on this subject. One collector has been collecting these type cards for 30 years and is very knowledgeable about every set printed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/tortie425/media/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg.html)

[Beansballcardblog]

I saw a post a few weeks ago on SCF (I don't want to link to it and risk violating any TOS rules) and there's a guy who actually lives in my area that is a hardcore Alan Kulwicki collector. Recently he picked up a 1986 Quincy's card that was (perhaps) given out just as a promo at Daytona that season.

I assume it wasn't on the "Top 20" list because it wasn't mainstream. I can say that the price paid for it would have put it up there if it was mainstream.

I'm just intrigued by the card. He talked a little about it. I was just wondering if anyone here might have more info on it.

I do plan to go ahead and try to keep this thread active, since we don't have an actual forum designated to post racing in. Going to keep an eye on that non-sports area as well.

[Bored5000]

I saw a post a few weeks ago on SCF (I don't want to link to it and risk violating any TOS rules) and there's a guy who actually lives in my area that is a hardcore Alan Kulwicki collector. Recently he picked up a 1986 Quincy's card that was (perhaps) given out just as a promo at Daytona that season.

I assume it wasn't on the "Top 20" list because it wasn't mainstream. I can say that the price paid for it would have put it up there if it was mainstream.

I'm just intrigued by the card. He talked a little about it. I was just wondering if anyone here might have more info on it.

I do plan to go ahead and try to keep this thread active, since we don't have an actual forum designated to post racing in. Going to keep an eye on that non-sports area as well.

There was an Alan Kulwicki Quincy's card that sold on eBay about 5-6 months ago. The card sold as a BIN for $499. I remember looking up that card when it was on eBay, and PSA had graded one of them. I get it that a Quincy's card is a holy grail for a diehard Kulwicki fan. But $499 seems like a steep price to pay for an Alan Kulwicki card. Even very scarce Petty and Earnhardt cards usually sell for less than that.

I remember digging around online to see what I could learn about that card and information was pretty limited. From what I remember reading, Quincy's had the card produced as a promotional handout. I am not at all familiar with the manufacturer, Big League Cards.

There was also one that sold on eBay in 2008. The description seems kinda dubious to me. LOL. The seller says that some unnamed source appraised the card at $500 in 1999.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alan-Kulwicki-Card-1985-Quincys-Big-League-Cards-Rookie-Vintage-Nascar-Rare-/291602359490?nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/alan-kulwicki-nascar-rookie-challenger-big-league

[Beansballcardblog]

I think that was the Kulwicki he bought. Even if it is a steep price, if it's a piece you can't often find and it's the only one that you need, sometimes you pay what you have. Kinda like the STP cards, what if you never see one again? Like the guys on American Pickers say, if it's something you've never seen, now is the time to buy.

[Beansballcardblog]

I have some more of these coming in the next couple of weeks, but I thought I'd share this. It's a blog post (my card blog (https://beansballcardblog.com/)) about my 1911 T36 (ATC Auto Drivers) Ralph DePalma.

Yes, a Non-Baseball “T” Card Addition (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/02/23/yes-a-non-baseball-t-card-addition/)

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . this gentleman has a pretty decent collection of both vintage
and current Indy Car racing autographs.

http://www.indy500autographs.com/index.html

[Bored5000]

I have some more of these coming in the next couple of weeks, but I thought I'd share this. It's a blog post (my card blog (https://beansballcardblog.com/)) about my 1911 T36 (ATC Auto Drivers) Ralph DePalma.

Yes, a Non-Baseball “T” Card Addition (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/02/23/yes-a-non-baseball-t-card-addition/)

Cool blog, wvu. I will definitely check out future updates you make to it. :)

[Bored5000]

.

. . . this gentleman has a pretty decent collection of both vintage
and current Indy Car racing autographs.

http://www.indy500autographs.com/index.html

I discovered that website a couple years ago, and that collection truly is amazing. I remember looking at nearly all the examples shown on that site, especially the drivers from the early days of the 500.

Funny you should mention that site. A Ray Harroun autograph on a '61 Indy ticket stub closed above $1,000 in an eBay auction a couple weeks ago. From what I have read in the past, Harroun was brought back to the track that year to honor him on the 50th anniversary of his win. I know that Harroun is an iconic name from winning the first 500 (controversy over whether or not he really did win the 1911 500 aside), but I was surprised to see the auction close above $1,000. He lived until 1968, so his autograph is not as impossible as some of the winners who died shortly after their wins in the 1920s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Indy-Indianapolis-500-Mile-Race-Ticket-Stub-SIGNED-RAY-HARROUN-1911-Winner-/381583348791?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[Bored5000]

Here is a cool video I found a while ago -- A.J. Foyt and Ray Harroun on "I've Got a Secret" in 1961. "Mr. X's" secret was that he had just won the '61 Indianapolis 500 a few weeks earlier. "Mr. Y's" secret was that he won the first Indianapolis 500 in 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo8E2bBpnRY

[Beansballcardblog]

Finally took a good look at that thread, thank you! I just learned about a new IndyCar set. Had no idea about the Fleer set.

I decided NOT auto tell the wifey about a new "project."

If you click on the non-sport card icon, top right corner of this main page, you will find many threads on this subject. One collector has been collecting these type cards for 30 years and is very knowledgeable about every set printed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/tortie425/media/b9f4555a-f5e7-4093-89fd-e25ef0ab87c6_zpsj4nic8u7.jpg.html)

[Bored5000]

Here is a link I have had bookmarked for a while that discusses the various Marhoefer sets of the '60s. Jon Hardgrove really is the man when it comes to older racing sets.

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/marhoefer61/go.html

Here is another thread in which Jon Hardgrove details, year-by-year, how many cards there are in each of the Marhoefer sets.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1204511583/1/March+pickup+thread....+1880s+to+the+1950s

Here is another link I have had saved for a while in which Jon Hardgrove shows examples of many different older sets and gives a blurb about them.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/AutomobilecardsUSA.htm

Another Jon Hardgrove thread in which he extensively discusses the Marhoefer sets, checklists, etc. Great reading for those who want to learn more about the Marhoefer sets.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1400699409/last-1400699409/Marhoefer+Indy+(more+than+you+really+wanted+to+kno w)

[Bored5000]

Here is another cool thread I have bookmarked for a while that show many different sets in the massive thread (1970 Fleer Dragstrips. 1972 STPs, 1983 UNOs, 1985-86 SportsStar Photo-Graphics, 1987 World of Oultaws, etc, etc.). This is a great thread to see images of every card from many different sets.

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=11&threadid=841816&FTVAR_STKEYWORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

[Beansballcardblog]

Eddie,

Thanks for those links. I took a look at them and learned quite a bit over the weekend!

Here's another vintage Indianapolis 500 card I picked up. Forgot to post it sooner.

Mailday from the Other Side of the Pond (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/02/22/mailday-from-the-other-side-of-the-pond/)

[Bored5000]

Eddie,

Thanks for those links. I took a look at them and learned quite a bit over the weekend!

Here's another vintage Indianapolis 500 card I picked up. Forgot to post it sooner.

Mailday from the Other Side of the Pond (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/02/22/mailday-from-the-other-side-of-the-pond/)

That's a neat looking card, Kin. I was not previously familiar with it.

[Beansballcardblog]

Here's another one that's not driver related, but Indianapolis 500 related.

Sometimes I Can’t Even Recall How I Find Out About Cards. (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/04/06/sometimes-i-cant-even-recall-how-i-find-out-about-cards/)


That's a neat looking card, Kin. I was not previously familiar with it.

[Bored5000]

Here's another one that's not driver related, but Indianapolis 500 related.

Sometimes I Can’t Even Recall How I Find Out About Cards. (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/04/06/sometimes-i-cant-even-recall-how-i-find-out-about-cards/)

I was familiar with that card and the Adventure set as a whole because of the infamy of the Schmeling card. Nice pick up for $3.

[Beansballcardblog]

No idea what that means...looks like I'll be googling that now.

I was familiar with that card and the Adventure set as a whole because of the infamy of the Schmeling card. Nice pick up for $3.

[Exhibitman]

Schmeling was issued with a swastika as a national flag symbol then pulled when there was an uproar. However, it was part of a large hoard of unopened material that was found some years ago and though expensive can be readily acquired. That hoard is why there are so many dirt-cheap high grade Adventure cards out there.

[Bored5000]

No idea what that means...looks like I'll be googling that now.

Exhibitman gave the low down on the Adventure Schmeling card. :) Here is a link to Exhibitman's site with a picture of the Schmeling card and some more details. I don't own a Schmeling Adventure card, but I remember being fascinated by that card when I first learned about it and trying to learn as much as I could about it. Like many other cards, several of the same Schmeling Adventure cards have been sitting on eBay for a very long time. The card does come up for auction on eBay fairly frequently, though.

http://www.boxingcarddigest.com/halloffame.html?COLLCC=3236332837&

[Beansballcardblog]

It may not be a trading card, but by the name, it's still a card.

Mailday: Expanding Horizons & Indianapolis Motor Speedway (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/04/28/mailday-expanding-horizons-indianapolis-motor-speedway/)

Have a great weekend!
-Kin

[Bored5000]

Cool postcard, Kin. Some of the early postcards showing the start of individual Indy 500s are neat and can be picked up for nearly nothing.

Did anyone on here pick up the T36 set at REA last night?

[Beansballcardblog]

I searched through the listings at one point where I thought any of the racing cards could be. Somehow I missed it. Do you have a link to it? I greatly dislike how I have trouble finding racing things on these sites.


Cool postcard, Kin. Some of the early postcards showing the start of individual Indy 500s are neat and can be picked up for nearly nothing.

Did anyone on here pick up the T36 set at REA last night?

[Bored5000]

I searched through the listings at one point where I thought any of the racing cards could be. Somehow I missed it. Do you have a link to it? I greatly dislike how I have trouble finding racing things on these sites.

I am sorry you were not aware of the T36 complete set at auction in REA. :( There was a mention of it earlier in this thread. The T36 set (25 cards) was also grouped together with a complete set (50 cards) of T37 "automobiles." The lot sold for $960 with the buyer's premium included. I wish the T36s would have been offered as a stand-alone item, but that seemed like a decent price for the two complete sets. When REA has any racing cards, they are usually located near the end of the auction listings.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=40749

I know it isn't racing, but the the auction also had a lot that featured complete sets of the 1955 Topps "World of Wheels" cards and 1961 Topps "Sports Cars" cards. That lot sold for a little over $700 with the buyer's premium added in.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=40791

[Beansballcardblog]

Heck, who knows....maybe I did see it and forgot. It might have already been out of my price range and I forgot about it. I've definitely been searching old auctions just to see what they "go" for so that I can bank some money and be ready in the future.

I am sorry you were not aware of the T36 complete set at auction in REA. :( There was a mention of it earlier in this thread. The T36 set (25 cards) was also grouped together with a complete set (50 cards) of T37 "automobiles." The lot sold for $960 with the buyer's premium included. I wish the T36s would have been offered as a stand-alone item, but that seemed like a decent price for the two complete sets. When REA has any racing cards, they are usually located near the end of the auction listings.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=40749

I know it isn't racing, but the the auction also had a lot that featured complete sets of the 1955 Topps "World of Wheels" cards and 1961 Topps "Sports Cars" cards. That lot sold for a little over $700 with the buyer's premium added in.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=40791

[Beansballcardblog]

Forgot to post this one a few days ago when it went up on the site.

Second T36 Post for a Second Place Finisher. (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/05/03/second-t36-post-for-a-second-place-finisher/)

[Bored5000]

I was able to pick up two major cards in recent weeks -- both of the Lorenzen cards from the 1972 STP set. I wrote about those cards earlier in this thread, and the Lorenzen with car variety is arguably the holy grail of racing cards. Racing collector Jon Hardgrove over on the net54 non-sports forum has written in the past that the two Lorenzen cards are the rarest major American racing cards. In 26 years of collecting, Hardgrove had seen one example of the Lorenzen with car card and four examples of the Lorenzen portrait card.

The Lorenzen with car card is now the centerpiece of my collection. I was absolutely shocked when I saw the two cards go up for auction on eBay about a month ago, I put in a big snipe (for me) for the Lorenzen with car card and a smaller snipe for the portrait card. I won the auction for the "with car" card and lost the portrait card auction. The seller actually lives about 45 minutes from me, and I began exchanging PMs with him about where he found the cards and educating him about the set and how rare those cards are. I agreed to meet the seller and pick up the card rather than have him mail it.

Upon meeting the seller, I talked with him for a while about the set and how he found the cards. The seller is a long time seller on eBay and the Lorenzen cards were among a box of car stuff/racing stuff he bought for $40 at a live auction. :eek: The seller told me has had some decent finds before, but this was far and away the greatest "find" he has ever had.

The cards were included in a box of racing photographs from former Area Auto Racing News (a racing trade paper based in Trenton, N.J.) photographer Leroy Leibelsperger, who passed away in May of this year. The box also included numerous 1970s and 1980s photos of NASCAR Winston Cup drivers, which aren't worth much money.

The seller said he tried doing some research online for some information about the Lorenzen cards to see if they were worth anything, but could not find anything online about them. He then put them on eBay and instantly knew he had something special when people began sending him PMs wanting him to end the auction. One offer came in for $300 for both cards to end the auction :rolleyes:; another offer of $750 for both cards was also made.

The "find" included one of the Lorenzen with car cards and a small batch of the portrait variety. The cards look like they were put in a box in 1972 and have not been touched since then. Those were the only STP cards included in the box, so the original owner knew the Lorenzen cards were something special. The "with car" variety of the Lorenzen car is really the holy grail of racing cards, but I also bought one of the Lorenzen portrait cards from the seller even though I lost the initial auction.

I know 1972 is not old in terms of Net54 "finds," but it is amazing what pops up for sale once in a while when a collector passes away. Jon Hardgrove needed 26 years to find a Lorenzen with car card, and the seller that I bought a Richard Petty STP card from earlier this year had only seen one Lorenzen with car card in 20 years of searching.
PSA has graded only one of the Lorenzen with car cards and four of the Lorenzen portrait cards.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20with%20car%20front10022016_zps1u wtli0b.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20with%20car%20front10022016_zps1u wtli0b.jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20with%20car%20back10022016_zpsovz nlcua.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20with%20car%20back10022016_zpsovz nlcua.jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20portrait%20front10022016_zpss0br h9ve.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20portrait%20front10022016_zpss0br h9ve.jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20portrait%20back10022016_zpselgoi jpi.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/1972%20STP%20cards/Fred%20Lorenzen%20portrait%20back10022016_zpselgoi jpi.jpg.html)

[Beansballcardblog]

Congratulations! I love all of the backstory as well. I don't know a ton about the STP cards, nor do I have any. One thing I love and hate at the same time about the old racing cards is that we don't know a ton about them. I know that I've read discussion about distribution of the STP cards and there's no difinitive answer, if I am correct.

Recently I bought a set of the 1960 Parkhurst Indianapolis Speedway Winners/Hawes Wax Indy/V338-2 (it goes by many names) set. I just can't seem to find out much about the history of the set, the distribution (though I know it was in pack form), or much of anything.

Every kind of collecting has it's own unique challenges. I envy the vintage baseball guys in that, while prices can be high, there is generally more knowledge about the cards and also more of them available than we have in racing.

Again, congratulations on the acquisition! Thank you so much for sharing!

[Bored5000]

Congratulations! I love all of the backstory as well. I don't know a ton about the STP cards, nor do I have any. One thing I love and hate at the same time about the old racing cards is that we don't know a ton about them. I know that I've read discussion about distribution of the STP cards and there's no difinitive answer, if I am correct.

Recently I bought a set of the 1960 Parkhurst Indianapolis Speedway Winners/Hawes Wax Indy/V338-2 (it goes by many names) set. I just can't seem to find out much about the history of the set, the distribution (though I know it was in pack form), or much of anything.

Every kind of collecting has it's own unique challenges. I envy the vintage baseball guys in that, while prices can be high, there is generally more knowledge about the cards and also more of them available than we have in racing.

Again, congratulations on the acquisition! Thank you so much for sharing!

Thanks for the kind words, Kin. There is a definitive answer about distribution of the STP set. It was a free set available at the 1972 Daytona 500 and possibly at Talladega that year as well. One theory that has been speculated about the Lorenzen cards being so rare (none of the cards are common) is because he did not race in the Daytona 500 that year and went back into retirement after running just a handful of races that season. STP then moved their sponsorship to Richard Petty.

Here is an obituary of the original owner of the cards, racing photographer Leroy Leibelsperger. As I said earlier, Leibelsperger passed away in May of this year and the obituary talks about him following the eastern races of the NASCAR Winston Cup circuit as a photographer throughout the 1970s.

The really crazy thing is that Leibelsperger lived 15 minutes away from me and the cards sold at a live auction 10 minutes from my house. It makes me sick that the cards sold for $40 in the live auction while being mixed in with a bunch of other car stuff. :eek:

http://aarn.com/2016/05/26/obits-long-time-aarn-photographer-leroy-leibelsperger/

Congratulations on the Hawes Wax set pick-up. This thread has not had any posts in a while, so i am glad to read you have also had a cool pick-up recently. :)

The thing I like about being a racing collector is that even an extreme rarity like the Lorenzen cards are at least somewhat attainable money-wise (I thought long and hard about how big a snipe I was willing to make). I was sort of expecting someone to go crazy with a $2,000-3,000 snipe because of how rare the card is. I would have been blown out of the water if that had happened. I told the seller that if this had been a extreme rarity of a baseball card from a popular set, that would mostly likely be a five or even six-figure card. Other extreme rarities like the Rocky Graziano card from the 1948 Leaf boxing set and the William McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set are well over $10,000 cards.

[brian1961]

Eddie---

Sincere congratulations on your beautiful pick-ups, and additionally, to the fascinating stories you conveyed associated with them. The PMs sent to end the auction were something else. Decent money there. You just never know; sometimes what one is selling actually has a ferocious market for them. Those stories and interwoven juicy tidbits were what I constantly tried to bring to my book on post-war regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

While I do not collect racing cardboard, preferring 1/43 scale models of the cars, and videos such as the DVDs from Rare Sportsfilms of the actual races where these racing greats established their legends, your dogged persistence is the same as mine for what I pursue.

Anyway, nice going, Eddie. Thanks again for a super post, bro!:D

---Brian Powell

[smtjoy]

I always liked this exhibit-

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n182/smtjoy/Exhibit%20Collection/1948-49%20Champs/1948-49ExhibitChampions-Cobb-80.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/smtjoy/media/Exhibit%20Collection/1948-49%20Champs/1948-49ExhibitChampions-Cobb-80.jpg.html)

[Bored5000]

Eddie---

Sincere congratulations on your beautiful pick-ups, and additionally, to the fascinating stories you conveyed associated with them. The PMs sent to end the auction were something else. Decent money there. You just never know; sometimes what one is selling actually has a ferocious market for them. Those stories and interwoven juicy tidbits were what I constantly tried to bring to my book on post-war regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

While I do not collect racing cardboard, preferring 1/43 scale models of the cars, and videos such as the DVDs from Rare Sportsfilms of the actual races where these racing greats established their legends, your dogged persistence is the same as mine for what I pursue.

Anyway, nice going, Eddie. Thanks again for a super post, bro!:D

---Brian Powell

Thanks so much for the kind words, Brian. I really appreciate that. The reason I know the cards came specifically from deceased racing photographer Leroy Leibelsperger is that the seller showed me Leibelsperger's Area Auto Racing News press card that was among the other identifying items that were in the box he bought at auction.

There are only a handful of $500+ individual racing cards, although it does make me throw up in my mouth a bit when an occasional Danica Patrick autographed 1/1 manufactured rarity will get up close to that figure in an auction. :o Much like the Graziano card in the '48 Leaf boxing set and the McKinley card in the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set, there is no way that a non racing collector would ever guess that the Lorenzen with car card in particular is so sought after.

As I said before, I love the obscure and impossible to find cards. There is nothing wrong with collecting T206s or '33 Goudeys, but I could never afford to go after five or six-figure baseball rarities. Most of my collection is pretty obscure, so I am not a PSA registry guy. But the owner of the one full set of 1972 STP cards on the PSA registry even has a comment with his set that very few people own the Lorenzen with car card.

http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=135628

I didn't really expect the seller to tell me what he paid for the box at auction. When he told me he had no idea what he had until people began sending him PMs to end the eBay auctions, I told him that I was sure he did pretty well for himself with his purchase. He was almost disbelieving when he told me he paid $40 for the lot and did not even know if the cards were worth anything at all.

Fred Lorenzen is still alive today, although he is 81 years old and battling dementia. His family has stated in recent years that they believe his dementia was caused by the numerous concussions he sustained over the years and the fact that he never took time off following those concussions to heal. Lorenzen's daughter has thanked Dale Earnhardt Jr. several times in recent years on her Facebook page for bringing the issue of concussions to light.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/features/a6253/slipping-away-65-6-roa0214/

Earnhardt Jr. and Lorenzen have both pledged to donate their brains to Christopher Nowinski's Concussion Legacy Foundation. Lorenzen's family strongly believes he suffers from CTE much like many former NFL players. Nowinski has said in the past that he is very familiar with Lorenzen's story.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2016/07/16/a-nascar-great-battling-dementia-pledges-brain-donation/87185360/

[Bored5000]

I always liked this exhibit-

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n182/smtjoy/Exhibit%20Collection/1948-49%20Champs/1948-49ExhibitChampions-Cobb-80.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/smtjoy/media/Exhibit%20Collection/1948-49%20Champs/1948-49ExhibitChampions-Cobb-80.jpg.html)

That is a neat card, Scott. I was not aware it existed, but I was at least somewhat familiar with John Cobb because I remembered the news story about the wreckage of his boat being located on the bottom of Loch Ness 50 years after Cobb's fatal accident.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1401226/Wreck-of-record-boat-found-in-Loch-Ness.html

[brian1961]

Eddie, Thank you, friend, for an amazing post. Fascinating. We can be happy for the guy who bought the box for only $40, since he offered those treasured Fast Freddie Lorenzen cards on eBay, of which you now own. As I wrote before, this affair has made for a great collector sea story. When you search for something for 20 years, the story is a good one.

I am very sorry to hear about Fred's dementia. He was so good for a long stretch. I vaguely recall during the first or second year of his comeback, in '70 or '71, he had a horrific crash that went on for several seconds. It was gruesome. He survived, but I imagine one of his main concussions would have happened in that particular accident.

SMTJOY---John Cobb was something else. I could go on and on about Mr. Cobb. One time at a gathering of British racing drivers, writers, and dignitaries, the esteemed Sir Malcolm Campbell was the main speaker. Well, by this time Mr. Cobb had obliterated Campbell's extremely hard-earned records with the Railton pictured in your Exhibit. Furthermore, Cobb had done some record-breaking in a 24-litre Sunbeam-Railton, such as the highest average speed for 24 hours, and routinely trounced all rivals in that exotic special at the Brits' beloved Brooklands track. Mr. Cobb was now the darling of the racing and record-mad British public. Also, John was a very quiet, unassuming gentleman who would not brag to save his life, while Campbell was a demanding, arrogant, extremely proud asshole. He was very brave, however, and he very much had earned the reputation he had as a Speed King. Still....

Well, at this moment I cannot recall the lurid details, but just the presence of Mr. Cobb in the audience so unnerved Sir Malcolm that he could not go on with his speech. I imagine John Cobb's records left Campbell seething with envy, and he flat out lost his composure and concentration.

One of the favorite models in my collection is a pretty rare, exquisite 1/43rd hand-built of John Cobb's massive Railton that I mentioned. Now that Brooklands is gone, Cobb will always have the lap record on that track--about 143 MPH!!. The tires were so slender, and he wore no seat belt, and of course stabilizing wings were a little over 30 years away----PURE DANGER. The great gentleman said driving that beautiful beast at Brooklands was like leaning out of a very tall building to see how far you could lean without falling.

Verbosity is setting in. Best go.

Again, guys, thanks for posting the Lorenzens and the John Cobb Exhibit ---Brian Powell

[Beansballcardblog]

After another T36 card was delivered yesterday, I wrote this post that I'd been working on in my head for a couple of weeks. Basically I talk about the frustrations of not knowing about my set and the limited findings I have so far on how many variations of each of the 35 cards there are. Just thought I'd share if anyone is interested.

Frustration in the Unknown (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/10/04/frustration-in-the-unknown/)

[Bored5000]

After another T36 card was delivered yesterday, I wrote this post that I'd been working on in my head for a couple of weeks. Basically I talk about the frustrations of not knowing about my set and the limited findings I have so far on how many variations of each of the 35 cards there are. Just thought I'd share if anyone is interested.

Frustration in the Unknown (https://beansballcardblog.com/2016/10/04/frustration-in-the-unknown/)

Interesting reading on your blog, Kin. :) I understand the point you are making about the lack of information regarding distribution with many racing sets. Baseball is king when it comes to card collecting, and the T206 set has tons of people interested in that set. But many of the more obscure sets suffer from the same lack of knowledge as racing cards.

My "best" or toughest baseball card is probably a 1949 Lummis Peanut Butter card of Willie "Puddinhead" Jones. The Lummis Peanut Butter set has been discussed numerous times on here, and there doesn't seem to be any real consensus as to exactly how the cards were distributed. Some collectors speculated that the cards were attached to the outside of peanut butter containers, while others have said they were handed out as a movie theater giveaway over a very limited time.

Racing really is lucky to have Jon Hardgrove as a collector. So much of what I know about various sets, I have learned simply be reading his posts.

[Bored5000]

Eddie, Thank you, friend, for an amazing post. Fascinating. We can be happy for the guy who bought the box for only $40, since he offered those treasured Fast Freddie Lorenzen cards on eBay, of which you now own. As I wrote before, this affair has made for a great collector sea story. When you search for something for 20 years, the story is a good one.

I am very sorry to hear about Fred's dementia. He was so good for a long stretch. I vaguely recall during the first or second year of his comeback, in '70 or '71, he had a horrific crash that went on for several seconds. It was gruesome. He survived, but I imagine one of his main concussions would have happened in that particular accident.

SMTJOY---John Cobb was something else. I could go on and on about Mr. Cobb. One time at a gathering of British racing drivers, writers, and dignitaries, the esteemed Sir Malcolm Campbell was the main speaker. Well, by this time Mr. Cobb had obliterated Campbell's extremely hard-earned records with the Railton pictured in your Exhibit. Furthermore, Cobb had done some record-breaking in a 24-litre Sunbeam-Railton, such as the highest average speed for 24 hours, and routinely trounced all rivals in that exotic special at the Brits' beloved Brooklands track. Mr. Cobb was now the darling of the racing and record-mad British public. Also, John was a very quiet, unassuming gentleman who would not brag to save his life, while Campbell was a demanding, arrogant, extremely proud asshole. He was very brave, however, and he very much had earned the reputation he had as a Speed King. Still....

Well, at this moment I cannot recall the lurid details, but just the presence of Mr. Cobb in the audience so unnerved Sir Malcolm that he could not go on with his speech. I imagine John Cobb's records left Campbell seething with envy, and he flat out lost his composure and concentration.

One of the favorite models in my collection is a pretty rare, exquisite 1/43rd hand-built of John Cobb's massive Railton that I mentioned. Now that Brooklands is gone, Cobb will always have the lap record on that track--about 143 MPH!!. The tires were so slender, and he wore no seat belt, and of course stabilizing wings were a little over 30 years away----PURE DANGER. The great gentleman said driving that beautiful beast at Brooklands was like leaning out of a very tall building to see how far you could lean without falling.

Verbosity is setting in. Best go.

Again, guys, thanks for posting the Lorenzens and the John Cobb Exhibit ---Brian Powell

Thanks again for the comment, Brian. I am 43 years old, so Lorenzen's career pre-dates me. But I have been around racing all my life. My parents started taking me to local dirt-track racing when I was just a few months old.

I know that racing on the Cup series in the 1960s was a different time and not much emphasis was placed on running the entire schedule, but it is still amazing that Lorenzen's entire Cup career was just 158 races; he won 26 times in just those 158 starts.

I had previously read that Lorenzen was a close friend of Fireball Roberts, and that Roberts' death from a fiery crash at the 1964 World 600 was one of the reasons Lorenzen initially retired in 1967. I know Ned Jarrett also retired young, but it's hard to believe Lorenzen was just 32 years old when he initially retired.

[rgpete]

Not a card, but information about his racing on a box for the diecast of Ronnie Peterson the "SuperSwede" I had this toy 40 yrs +,and the diecast is like new but the box not

[rgpete]

The diecast

[Beansballcardblog]

One of these is a part of the REA auction...well, it's barely started and already out of my stratosphere.

1912 T227 "Series of Champions" Car, Horse, and Motorboat Racing PSA-Graded Collection (4) (http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=43032)


Here's a T227 Mulford. I have a lot from the Auto Drivers series and will try and post some scans later in the week. I guess the Soccer/Golf/Cricket section might be a good place to add auto and horse racing cards...

[brian1961]

Not a card, but information about his racing on a box for the diecast of Ronnie Peterson the "SuperSwede" I had this toy 40 yrs +,and the diecast is like new but the box not

Ron, thanks for posting your box and toy of the Super Swede, Ronnie Peterson. He and Mario Andretti were so dominating in 1978 when Mario won the F1 World Championship.

My favorite victory of Ronnie's involved a sports car race. He was among the team members for Scuderia Ferrari in 1972. That year was the first of two Ferrari ran its dominating 312PB. Each race Ferrari fought it out with their only main rival, Alfa-Romeo. Though the Ferraris won every race, the Alfas were superb, but just did not have the reliability of the Ferraris. A fabulous documentary of that 1972 World Championship Sports Car series was done by American filmmaker Michael Keyser, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. I have loved this on VHS, and need to update to DVD.

Love it, love it, love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ronnie is shown many instances, though not interviewed.

However, he and his co-driver won one of the toughest, most respected races on the calendar. It was the 1000 Kilometers of the Nurburgring, in Germany. This track was a little over 14 miles long, with an elevation differential of 1,000 feet from lowest to highest point. There were over 180 turns to each lap. It was one of the most challenging of all circuits in history, and often the one the driver's enjoyed the most.

It was also one of the most deadly.....

Like F1 Grand Prix racing, when it rains, the race simply continues, more dangerous than ever, though the drivers pit for rain tires of course.

Anyway, Ronnie and his co-driver beat the second place Alfa-Romeo by a little over 5 minutes. Their winning speed on that tough track was a staggering 105.57 MPH!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yes, it was overcast for part of the race, and it rained.

Ronnie Peterson---I salute your memory.

Thanks again, bro, for posting. Hope you didn't mind hearing more on Mr. Peterson. I own a few 1/43 models of the 1972-73 Ferrari 312PBs, and one of the Alfas. Love 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

---Brian Powell

[brian1961]

Eddie, I'll check my Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats, by Robert Cutter, to see if there's any reason given why Freddie retired for the first time at 32.

Funny, I used an excellent story in Mr. Cutter's book to illustrate a point in my newly-released book on postwar regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. Yep, there was a story about early Ferraris that helped me with the key chapter on the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle!

I would have liked to do a chapter on the Lummis Peanut Butter Phillies. For the same reason you mention I decided against it. If it could be determined precisely how they were issued, I might have done one. What we needed was some former youngster from Philly who back in the day was "nuts about them" and made a lot of lifetime memories collecting them one-by-one to try to build a set. I never found such a person. Eddie, you know, there's a decent chance that the Lummis cards were available via both peanut butter containers and movie theater "free prize". Simply to get the word out to BUY MORE DELICIOUS LUMMIS PEANUT BUTTER!

Getting verbose again. Bye. ---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Eddie, I'll check my Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats, by Robert Cutter, to see if there's any reason given why Freddie retired for the first time at 32.

Funny, I used an excellent story in Mr. Cutter's book to illustrate a point in my newly-released book on postwar regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. Yep, there was a story about early Ferraris that helped me with the key chapter on the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle!

I would have liked to do a chapter on the Lummis Peanut Butter Phillies. For the same reason you mention I decided against it. If it could be determined precisely how they were issued, I might have done one. What we needed was some former youngster from Philly who back in the day was "nuts about them" and made a lot of lifetime memories collecting them one-by-one to try to build a set. I never found such a person. Eddie, you know, there's a decent chance that the Lummis cards were available via both peanut butter containers and movie theater "free prize". Simply to get the word out to BUY MORE DELICIOUS LUMMIS PEANUT BUTTER!

Getting verbose again. Bye. ---Brian Powell

Great post, Brian. Maybe there was something else at play with regard to Fred Lorenzen's initial retirement, but i have read in the past that he was distraught at the death of close friend Fireball Roberts in 1964. Lorenzen ran only five races in 1967 and 11 races in '66 before retiring for the first time..

Author Art Garner came out with an amazing book in 2014 about the tragic 1964 Indianapolis 500 entitled "Black Noon: The Year They Stopped the Indy 500." The book is as good as the Amazon reviews would have one believe. One thing I did not realize until reading Garner's book was that the fiery crash at Charlotte that eventually claimed the life of Fireball Roberts occurred just six days before the Indy inferno that claimed the lives of Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald. Fireball Roberts clung to life for some two months after his crash at Charlotte.

During the final two months of his life, Roberts would occasionally have days during which he was relatively lucid. On such days, he repeatedly asked his wife and doctors who won the Indy 500 that year. Roberts' wife and doctors repeatedly told him that A.J. Foyt won Indy, but they never revealed to him that the race was marred by a massive fire or that Sachs and MacDonald perished in the race.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Noon-Year-They-Stopped/dp/1250017777

Retiring young was not completely unheard of among Cup drivers in the 1960s. Ned Jarrett was just 34 when he retired. I have seen various interviews with Jarrett over the years in which he expressed regret at retiring so young. At the time, many drivers believed that 35 was old for a racer just like it was for players in the stick and ball sports. Jarrett has said many times over the years that he wished he would have known that racers could still be competitive in their 40s and even their 50s.

I don't know if you saw this, but REA actually has a full set of Lummis Peanut Butter cards at auction right now. :eek: I figure those had to be assembled in 1949 and not in the decades that followed. PSA's population report only lists 13 total Lummis cards among all 12 players. I bought my Lummis Peanut Butter card (which used to be in Leon's collection) from long-time collector John Rumirez. As I exchanged PMs with Rumirez, he wrote me that he has been collecting for 40 years and still only has 9/12 cards in the Lummis Peanut Butter set.

There was a Lummis thread on here in the past in which a poster either remembered or was told many decades ago that the cards were distributed as a movie theater giveaway at the very least.

Last year's REA auction included a Richie Ashburn Lummis card (which is a rookie card for Ashburn). That card, while nicer than the Ashburn included in the set currently at REA, sold for $5,000 as a single card. I am interested to see where the REA set closes this year. Maybe I am way high or way low, but I'm guessing $10,000 for the set. :confused:

Lummis Peanut Butter Cards are rare as hell, but at least they are somewhat attainable to small-time collectors when they do show up. Felin's Franks cards are another great Philadelphia rarity, and they are completely out of my price range when they do show up. Huggins and Scott had a raw Felin's Franks card of Bobby Morgan that sold for $2,868 last year. REA currently has a Bobby Morgan Felin's Franks card at auction that is already at $1,200 with the buyer's premium. As I said earlier in the thread, that is one of the reasons I like chasing legendary rarities of racing cards or other non baseball cards.

[Bored5000]

One of these is a part of the REA auction...well, it's barely started and already out of my stratosphere.

1912 T227 "Series of Champions" Car, Horse, and Motorboat Racing PSA-Graded Collection (4) (http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=43032)

Kin, if you keep an eye out, the Mulford card from the T227 set does pop up at a more reasonable price from time to time. All four of the cards in that REA lot are either the"highest graded" for that particular card or tied for "highest graded" honors for that particular card. A couple registry collectors are most likely what is driving up the price of that lot.

[rgpete]

Ron, thanks for posting your box and toy of the Super Swede, Ronnie Peterson. He and Mario Andretti were so dominating in 1978 when Mario won the F1 World Championship.

My favorite victory of Ronnie's involved a sports car race. He was among the team members for Scuderia Ferrari in 1972. That year was the first of two Ferrari ran its dominating 312PB. Each race Ferrari fought it out with their only main rival, Alfa-Romeo. Though the Ferraris won every race, the Alfas were superb, but just did not have the reliability of the Ferraris. A fabulous documentary of that 1972 World Championship Sports Car series was done by American filmmaker Michael Keyser, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. I have loved this on VHS, and need to update to DVD.

Love it, love it, love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ronnie is shown many instances, though not interviewed.

However, he and his co-driver won one of the toughest, most respected races on the calendar. It was the 1000 Kilometers of the Nurburgring, in Germany. This track was a little over 14 miles long, with an elevation differential of 1,000 feet from lowest to highest point. There were over 180 turns to each lap. It was one of the most challenging of all circuits in history, and often the one the driver's enjoyed the most.

It was also one of the most deadly.....

Like F1 Grand Prix racing, when it rains, the race simply continues, more dangerous than ever, though the drivers pit for rain tires of course.

Anyway, Ronnie and his co-driver beat the second place Alfa-Romeo by a little over 5 minutes. Their winning speed on that tough track was a staggering 105.57 MPH!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yes, it was overcast for part of the race, and it rained.

Ronnie Peterson---I salute your memory.

Thanks again, bro, for posting. Hope you didn't mind hearing more on Mr. Peterson. I own a few 1/43 models of the Ferraris, and one of the Alfas. Love 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

---Brian Powell

Not at all Brian, Thanks for that information about Ronnie

[Marslife]

Hi Kin!

loved your article!

I collect other non sports & sports sets that are found with Hassan and Mecca Backs. I suspect the T36 Master set would consist of 100 cards:

Mecca F30 - 25 cards
Mecca F649 - 25 cards
Hassan F30 - 25 cards
Hassan F649 - 25 cards

good stuff...

Cliff

[brian1961]

Eddie---

So much to comment on, my friend. Too bad we can't meet for pizza, but then the food would get cold as we'd become engrossed in our various topics of conversation.

Eddie, if you are unaware of this book, you simply must get a hold of a copy of FORD--THE DUST AND THE GLORY: A Racing History 1901 - 1967 by Leo Levine. It is now considered a "volume 1", since I believe it was expanded and a second volume written to cover post-1967 racing.

Eddie, this book is the definitive work on Ford racing of that time period. You would find an absolute wealth of info on Fast Freddie. I loved the book in high school, and of course it went out of print. After-market copies were hot and not cheap. I remember them running a hundred bucks, this being before eBay. Finally, the book was reprinted, amid much fanfare. The reprinted price was $40, I think.

My reaction---SOLD.

At this moment I cannot find my copy, but you would love the stories and facts that are jam-packed in that book. Fast Freddie's FORD era would all be covered in detail. Also, Ford's Indianapolis program, the Lincolns at the Carrera Pan Americana, and their massive FORD GT racing sports car program are covered in intimate detail. The latter was my reason for buying this very thick book. Freddie, just as Fireball Roberts, did not win championships; rather, he won a lot of big races with huge purses. I don't follow the PGA golf series, but they call the big tournaments "majors"; the Fireball and Fast Freddie were cleaning up back then on the far majority of the major races.

My advice to you, Eddie, is to go to your local public library. If they do not have the book, work with their inter-library loan service and get it that way. Then you can read and browse to your heart's content, to see if you would want to own your own copy. Me, I love to read and then re-read my favorite sections. I find myself doing this with my own book, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

Yeah, I well recall REA's offering that gorgeous Lummis Richie Ashburn last fall. I had my son download a scan of the card. You know, REA has changed their computer site software. You cannot download a scan now, save for an out-of-focus image. Guess I cannot blame them. Regardless, those Lummis cards are something else. I well recall them being INTENSELY WANTED by the pioneer collectors. One reason, of course, is that they were collecting everything.

Can you imagine?

Anyway, I had to pick and choose, because though I got in on what would be considered today "the ground floor" of the emerging organised adult card collecting hobby, prices escalated quickly, and the regionals were often the first to spike sharply, given the old adage of "supply and demand". The supply even back then was minuscule, so it took the most prime of trade bait, or bigger and bigger bucks to consummate a deal. I simple didn't have the big bucks nor the connections---til later.

Now to dear Ned Jarrett. It was Ned who courageously risked his life to pull Fireball Roberts from the inferno his Ford had become after it flipped over at Charlotte.

I vividly remember the Ford book I previously discussed going into why 1964 was going to be a very dangerous year. After 1955, the year 1964 was the worst. Besides the Fireball Roberts accident, and the horrific worst-looking-ever accident at Indianapolis, early in the year two-time defending NASCAR champion Joe Weatherly lost his life in an accident at Riverside. Then late in the year, '64 Indy 500 pole-setter Bobby Marshman crashed to his death at an Arizona track testing a car, as I vaguely recall.

Racing fans today cannot begin to truly understand what it was like when I was a child in the 60s, and before. A top racing star or two were bound "to get it" during the racing year. I refer collectively to racing sports cars, Formula 1, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Of course, the cars were as much the stars as the drivers; hence, that is why I've collected 1/43rd models of them for over 50 years, along with books and videos covering the history of the races, cars, and the drivers.

Here I go again. Sorry.:o Best regards, Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Eddie---

So much to comment on, my friend. Too bad we can't meet for pizza, but then the food would get cold as we'd become engrossed in our various topics of conversation.

Eddie, if you are unaware of this book, you simply must get a hold of a copy of FORD--THE DUST AND THE GLORY: A Racing History 1901 - 1967 by Leo Levine. It is now considered a "volume 1", since I believe it was expanded and a second volume written to cover post-1967 racing.

Eddie, this book is the definitive work on Ford racing of that time period. You would find an absolute wealth of info on Fast Freddie. I loved the book in high school, and of course it went out of print. After-market copies were hot and not cheap. I remember them running a hundred bucks, this being before eBay. Finally, the book was reprinted, amid much fanfare. The reprinted price was $40, I think.

My reaction---SOLD.

At this moment I cannot find my copy, but you would love the stories and facts that are jam-packed in that book. Fast Freddie's FORD era would all be covered in detail. Also, Ford's Indianapolis program, the Lincolns at the Carrera Pan Americana, and their massive FORD GT racing sports car program are covered in intimate detail. The latter was my reason for buying this very thick book. Freddie, just as Fireball Roberts, did not win championships; rather, he won a lot of big races with huge purses. I don't follow the PGA golf series, but they call the big tournaments "majors"; the Fireball and Fast Freddie were cleaning up back then on the far majority of the major races.

My advice to you, Eddie, is to go to your local public library. If they do not have the book, work with their inter-library loan service and get it that way. Then you can read and browse to your heart's content, to see if you would want to own your own copy. Me, I love to read and then re-read my favorite sections. I find myself doing this with my own book, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

Yeah, I well recall REA's offering that gorgeous Lummis Richie Ashburn last fall. I had my son download a scan of the card. You know, REA has changed their computer site software. You cannot download a scan now, save for an out-of-focus image. Guess I cannot blame them. Regardless, those Lummis cards are something else. I well recall them being INTENSELY WANTED by the pioneer collectors. One reason, of course, is that they were collecting everything.

Can you imagine?

Anyway, I had to pick and choose, because though I got in on what would be considered today "the ground floor" of the emerging organised adult card collecting hobby, prices escalated quickly, and the regionals were often the first to spike sharply, given the old adage of "supply and demand". The supply even back then was minuscule, so it took the most prime of trade bait, or bigger and bigger bucks to consummate a deal. I simple didn't have the big bucks nor the connections---til later.

Now to dear Ned Jarrett. It was Ned who courageously risked his life to pull Fireball Roberts from the inferno his Ford had become after it flipped over at Charlotte.

I vividly remember the Ford book I previously discussed going into why 1964 was going to be a very dangerous year. After 1955, the year 1964 was the worst. Besides the Fireball Roberts accident, and the horrific worst-looking-ever accident at Indianapolis, early in the year two-time defending NASCAR champion Joe Weatherly lost his life in an accident at Riverside. Then late in the year, '64 Indy 500 pole-setter Bobby Marshman crashed to his death at an Arizona track testing a car, as I vaguely recall.

Racing fans today cannot begin to truly understand what it was like when I was a child in the 60s, and before. A top racing star or two were bound "to get it" during the racing year. I refer collectively to racing sports cars, Formula 1, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Of course, the cars were as much the stars as the drivers; hence, that is why I've collected 1/43rd models of them for over 50 years, along with books and videos covering the history of the races, cars, and the drivers.

Here I go again. Sorry.:o Best regards, Brian Powell

Another great post, Brian. I have about a dozen books sitting on my nightstand right now. I feel like Henry Bemis in the old "Time Enough at Last" Twilight Zone episode. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_at_Last

I am familiar with both Joe Weatherly's fatal accident at Riverside due to not having a shoulder harness or window net and Ned Jarrett pulling Fireball Robert out of his car at Charlotte. :(

A couple other notes that really stood out to me from Art Garner's amazing book on the tragic '64 500:

* The iconic photo of A.J. Foyt holding the just-printed newspaper front page with the giant headline "Foyt Winner in 500, Sachs, MacDonald Die." has a bit of a back story. The newspaper was thrust into Foyt's hands as soon as he climbed out of his car in Victory Lane. Foyt initially had a huge smile on his face -- until looking down and seeing the headline. He then asked his wife if the headline was true. When she said yes, Foyt's expression instantly changed to one of sadness.

* After the crash, Indy rookie Bobby Unser, who was knocked out of the race in the crash, walked up and down pit road and told car owners that if their drivers did not have the stomach to restart the race, he was willing to take their place.

* Famed Charlotte Motor Speedway promoter Humpy Wheeler attended the race as a young P.R. rep for Firestone. From his vantage point at the opposite end of the speedway, Wheeler initially thought that the grandstands were on fire or that a car had gone into the grandstands. He initially believed the crash was a replay of the 1955 Le Mans disaster.

The complete set of Lummis Peanut Butter cards at REA is already at $6,000 with the juice. Maybe I am way low with my guess of $10,000 as the ending price.

[Bored5000]

Another racing book I have read in recent years that is simply phenomenal is Dr. Steve Olvey's book "Rapid Response: My Life as a Motor Racing Life Saver." The book is kinda pricey right now on Amazon, but it does show up from time to time for under $20. IIRC, I paid $12-13 for my copy a couple years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Rapid-Response-Inside-Racing-Life-Saver/dp/184425982X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476593490&sr=1-1&keywords=steve+olvey

The book begins with Olvey talking about saving Alex Zanardi's life after Zanardi's double amputation in 2001, and Zanardi wrote the foreword for the book. Olvey was the chief medical director for CART from 1978-2001, and he could not believe what he saw when he reached Zanardi's car. Double amputations above the knee are almost always fatal in the field because a patient will bleed out in less than 90 seconds. Olvey was almost certain Zanardi would die on the helicopter flight to the nearest trauma center. Olvey talked about every time the CART series visited a new venue, he would immediately search out the nearest hospital and the nearest major trauma center in case something disastrous occurred.

Nearly all of the major crashes in CART during 1980s and 1990s are discussed in a tasteful manner. Olvey talks about how drivers were viewed as expandable and fools who deserved whatever they got when he first began attending races in the 1960s. Who knew that Swede Savage actually died from a bad blood transfusion following his '73 Indy crash? But the book also contains lots of stories with happier endings. For example, I knew Rick Mears' feet-crushing crash at Sanair (Que.) in 1984 was bad, but I never knew that French-Canadian doctors initially wanted to amputate both of Mears' feet. Mears subsequently came back to win Indy twice more after doctors initially wanted to amputate his feet.

Olvey mentioned being in the grandstands at Indy in 1964 and being momentarily relieved to learn that Eddie Sachs was merely "fatally injured." Olvey's father then broke the news to him of what the term "fatally injured" meant.

Olvey also characterized NASCAR as such as donkey series safety wise in the 1970s and '80s that A.J. Foyt often paid Olvey out of his own pocket to accompany him to NASCAR races Foyt competed in. Due to cronyism and just outright cheapness by promoters, the doctors staffing NASCAR races in the 1970s and '80s would sometimes be mere optometrists, general practitioners or other doctors woefully unqualified to handle a traumatic injury/amputation.

[Bored5000]

I don't think this has been asked yet in this thread, but did any of you grow up going to local racing? I see that Kin is from Texas, but I am not sure where Brian is from? As I mentioned earlier, my parents began taking me to dirt track races in the Northeast when I was just a few months old. All through my teenage years, my 20s and into my 30s, I was going to local races every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night.

Over a 15-year period, I averaged about 90+ races a year.I don't go to nearly that many races anymore, but local racing is still a big part of my life. I never got into any trouble when I was in my teens because I was always at the races every weekend. I have been to right around 200 tracks in my lifetime, stretching all over the Northeast and a smattering of tracks in the Midwest and Southeast.

Did any of you attend local Modified or Late Model or Sprint Car races? I did not mention some of the other great racing books I have read in recent years because I don't know if there is any interest on the board or if the topic of local short-track racing is outside of this thread's racing interest. :)

[rgpete]

I don't think this has been asked yet in this thread, but did any of you grow up going to local racing? I see that Kin is from Texas, but I am not sure where Brian is from? As I mentioned earlier, my parents began taking me to dirt track races in the Northeast when I was just a few months old. All through my teenage years, my 20s and into my 30s, I was going to local races every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night.

Over a 15-year period, I averaged about 90+ races a year.I don't go to nearly that many races anymore, but local racing is still a big part of my life. I never got into any trouble when I was in my teens because I was always at the races every weekend. I have been to right around 200 tracks in my lifetime, stretching all over the Northeast and a smattering of tracks in the Midwest and Southeast.

Did any of you attend local Modified or Late Model or Sprint Car races? I did not mention some of the other great racing books I have read in recent years because I don't know if there is any interest on the board or if the topic of local short-track racing is outside of this thread's racing interest. :)

I only went once to see my son at a Camping World Truck series race in Martinsville, he was a back up front tire carrier for Joe Gibbs Racing for the Xfinity series and full time carrier along with being a garage mechanic and fabricator with Red Horse Racing. His interests switch to drag racing.

[rgpete]

Deleted

[brian1961]

I will try to be succinct.

Eddie, though your bookshelf is full, put it into high gear and buy FORD The Dust and the Glory: A Racing History 1901 - 1967. Bro, believe me, I am not trying to be controlling. Having known and savored this book for over four decades, I know what I'm talking about. One thing to consider, when Leo Levine wrote it, the postwar events were still recent and fresh. The stories first hand or second hand; hence, accuracy is a hallmark of this important work. That's why the aftermarket price skyrocketed after it went out of print. Racing historians went nuts about this one. For another thing, several niches of racing fans were fed: Le Mans / racing sports car, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Also, it is refreshingly politically incorrect; the events and people are discussed as they were.

The first race my Dad and brother took me too was at Soldier Field in either '58 or '59. Since it was stock cars, there's a decent chance Freddie Lorenzen was running.

I was EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED to be taken with my family to see the races at Meadowdale Speedway in Carpentersville, Illinois and Road America in Elkart Lake, Wisconsin. We went to the Indianapolis 500 in 1960. We were in the infield, against the fence, just as the second turn was ending. Not far away was the huge man-made scaffolding that was several stories tall. With everyone close to the edge to get a better look, the worst happened as the cars were on the parade lap or first lap---the whole scaffolding fell forward. Terrible. Amazingly, only two people died. One cameraman got the fall, and it looked much worse. Still, two people never went home....

My son and I made it to the 2000 and 2004 United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis. What genuine thrills all those races were. Our man was Michael Schumacher, who was just beginning his string of five consecutive World Drivers Championship titles. So sad he went skiing without a mask, or whatever. His poor son Mick was with him.....

If you love the regional / food issues from the era of 1947 - 1971, please do consider my book, Eddie. I know, that's all you need, another book. Yet, think about it, what has our hobby really produced about these cards, and what it was like being a child or an adult back in the day, and trying to collect these toughies?

Nada. Hey man, it's up to you. It's $30 postpaid. Remember, it's an e-book on a CD, not paper, nor audio. But it's 478 pages of pure collecting treasure.

Wow, attending an average of 90+ races a year; Eddie, that's crazy. What a racing fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for your remembrances of Dr. Steve Olvey. Fascinating, sad, upsetting, and our country mirrors the Chinese fire drills that took place in Europe in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Jackie Stewart and Joakim Bonnier really got the sport and the track owners to change their wicked, stupid, lardhead ways! Tragically, Jo got it at Le Mans 1972. That sad event was covered in that aforementioned documentary, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. Just saying, but among the drivers heavily interviewed was a still very young, and by now extremely successful, Mario Andretti.

Ok, guys, I said I'd be succinct. Out of here.

Take care, pal. ---Brian Powell

PS -- Funny you mention Mr. Zanardi. My family and I stopped for half an hour at Barnes 'n Noble. Alex just happened to be on the cover of one of the two British sports car magazines I try to stay up with, CLASSIC & SPORTS CAR and MOTOR SPORT. I only got to see a little of it. He's an inspiring man. Still a champion in my mind.

PSS - Eddie, or anyone who relishes the regionals, SPORTS COLLECTORS DAILY editor Rich Mueller has loaded up my chapter 8 from NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. It concerns the 1960 Home Run Derby cards. In case anyone should question my intelligence and integrity about the year I gave for the issue, I strongly suggest you read my chapter, rather than make a crass comment. ---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

I will try to be succinct.

Eddie, though your bookshelf is full, put it into high gear and buy FORD The Dust and the Glory: A Racing History 1901 - 1967. Bro, believe me, I am not trying to be controlling. Having known and savored this book for over four decades, I know what I'm talking about. One thing to consider, when Leo Levine wrote it, the postwar events were still recent and fresh. The stories first hand or second hand; hence, accuracy is a hallmark of this important work. That's why the aftermarket price skyrocketed after it went out of print. Racing historians went nuts about this one. For another thing, several niches of racing fans were fed: Le Mans / racing sports car, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Also, it is refreshingly politically incorrect; the events and people are discussed as they were.

The first race my Dad and brother took me too was at Soldier Field in either '58 or '59. Since it was stock cars, there's a decent chance Freddie Lorenzen was running.

I was EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED to be taken with my family to see the races at Meadowdale Speedway in Carpentersville, Illinois and Road America in Elkart Lake, Wisconsin. We went to the Indianapolis 500 in 1960. We were in the infield, against the fence, just as the second turn was ending. Not far away was the huge man-made scaffolding that was several stories tall. With everyone close to the edge to get a better look, the worst happened as the cars were on the parade lap or first lap---the whole scaffolding fell forward. Terrible. Amazingly, only two people died. One cameraman got the fall, and it looked much worse. Still, two people never went home....

My son and I made it to the 2000 and 2004 United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis. What genuine thrills all those races were. Our man was Michael Schumacher, who was just beginning his string of five consecutive World Drivers Championship titles. So sad he went skiing without a mask, or whatever. His poor son Mick was with him.....

If you love the regional / food issues from the era of 1947 - 1971, please do consider my book, Eddie. I know, that's all you need, another book. Yet, think about it, what has our hobby really produced about these cards, and what it was like being a child or an adult back in the day, and trying to collect these toughies?

Nada. Hey man, it's up to you. It's $30 postpaid. Remember, it's an e-book on a CD, not paper, nor audio. But it's 478 pages of pure collecting treasure.

Wow, attending an average of 90+ races a year; Eddie, that's crazy. What a racing fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for your remembrances of Dr. Steve Olvey. Fascinating, sad, upsetting, and our country mirrors the Chinese fire drills that took place in Europe in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Jackie Stewart and Joakim Bonnier really got the sport and the track owners to change their wicked, stupid, lardhead ways! Tragically, Jo got it at Le Mans 1972. That sad event was covered in that aforementioned documentary, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. Just saying, but among the drivers heavily interviewed was a still very young, and by now extremely successful, Mario Andretti.

Ok, guys, I said I'd be succinct. Out of here.

Take care, pal. ---Brian Powell

PS -- Funny you mention Mr. Zanardi. My family and I stopped for half an hour at Barnes 'n Noble. Alex just happened to be on the cover of one of the two British sports car magazines I try to stay up with, CLASSIC & SPORTS CAR and MOTOR SPORT. I only got to see a little of it. He's an inspiring man. Still a champion in my mind.

PSS - Eddie, or anyone who relishes the regionals, SPORTS COLLECTORS DAILY editor Rich Mueller has loaded up my chapter 8 from NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. It concerns the 1960 Home Run Derby cards. In case anyone should question my intelligence and integrity about the year I gave for the issue, I strongly suggest you read my chapter, rather than make a crass comment. ---Brian Powell

Great stories, Brian. In his book, Dr. Olvey talks about being a big proponent of the HANS device long before it gained widespread acceptance. He recognized decades ago that basilar skull fractures were a problem that could be greatly reduced. Olvey mentioned Jim Hickman dying at the Milwaukee Mile in 1982 when his throttle stuck wide open. CART responded by immediately requiring an engine kill switch on the steering wheel prior to the next race; NASCAR took two decades to institute the same rule -- following the death of Adam Petty due to a stuck throttle.

Olvey also talks about the fatal crashes of Gordon Smiley, Greg Moore, Jeff Krossnoff and Gonzalo Rodriguez and what happened in those accidents. He wrote that he was angry that Rodriguez lost his life in such a seemingly minor crash due to a basilar skull fracture.

Here in the Northeast, we lost our Indy 500/Daytona 500 for Northeast Modifieds with the closing of the Syracuse (N.Y.) Mile last October. I attended 29 of the last 30 "Super DIRT Week" shows at the Syracuse Mile. The race has now moved to nearby Oswego (N.Y.) Speedway, but an era really did end with the state demolishing the racetrack at the New York State Fairgrounds for a $50 million revitalization project after 112 years of racing.

I have been to other tracks for their farewell race, but last October was probably the saddest scene I have ever witnessed at a racetrack. That race was so huge in the 1970s, '80s, '90s that it seemed preposterous to ever believe it would disappear.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2015/09/place_of_mystery_lore_and_legend_in_farewell_to_mo ody_mile_where_is_deep_respect.html

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2015/10/post_599.html


I am interested in buying one of your books. Do you accept Paypal?

[brian1961]

I am sorry for your loss as a racing fan of your beloved track that gave you so many happy memories.

When I think of the HANS device, and what a right proper helmet might have done for Mr. Earnhardt at Daytona in 2001.... I will never forget seeing his fatal accident initially. I am by no means an expert, but it just didn't look that bad, but then my heart sank when commentator Darrell Waltrip immediately said it looked bad. The sad sound of his voice.....

Racing has fortunately come a long way in sparing the driver's life. Most folks don't understand it's still dangerous as all get-out!

Eddie, I am sorry to say I am not set up for PAYPAL. I've been asking for a money order for my book. I was paying a monthly bill by money order for years, and I'd just get 'em down at my local Post Office. They currently charge just $1.20. Your book will be sent to you postpaid, via first class mail.

Should you decide to take a chance on my book, here's my address:

Brian Powell
P. O. Box 743
New Carlisle, Indiana 46552

I probably should have written this as a personal message. I hope you're not put off, my friend. I guess in this instance, I do not mind others knowing my mailing address. I've still got a lot of copies to sell--HA!

Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I think you'll be profoundly moved by it.

Don't let the cover fool you---the book is by no means just about Mickey Mantle cards. My cover photo actually traces to when I started my writing, as a four-part series for SPORTS COLLECTORS DIGEST on difficult Mantle cards. The third installment would have had to run in two parts.

The series expanded to a book for a few personal reasons. My editor all along was former SCD editor, Tom Bartsch. The book looks very professional, I assure you. As you read it by scrolling down slowly with you computer mouse, you will ALWAYS see the "bookmarks" off to the side, allowing you to go to any entity in the book swiftly.

Rather disappointed in the Mickey Mantle card collectors. They should have jumped on NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN at once. After all, one of the chapters traces the never-told story and provenance of one of PSA's listed TOP 250 SPORTS CARDS in the hobby. Naturally, it's not a condition-rarity Topps or Bowman product. By no means, it's a massive condition-rarity 1 of 1 highest graded specimen of a rare regional.

Now, these tough Mantles ARE out there, and as David Festberg smugly commented, "they're around". The fact is, yes, they are around, with several now on eBay. But they are all around PSA 1 POOR or PSA 1 with a dreaded qualifier. Once in a while, a low high-grade PSA 2 will show up. So when Mr. Festberg correctly told me, "They're around", his statement was in need of a badly-warranted QUALIFIER!

Eddie, I was so depressed when Adam Petty perished at that track. That tragedy just crushed the family. I well remember someone commented at the next race on TV that Kyle would still go up to his room at night to pray with him and tell him good night. The pathos of it all.:( He was such a nice young friendly guy. Well, for a long time racing has been known as, "the cruel sport". In fact, a book was written on F1 racing with that title over 50 years ago.

Must go! Can't edit! UGH! --Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Brian, I will stop and get a money order today or tomorrow and send it off to you.

[brian1961]

Brian, I will stop and get a money order today or tomorrow and send it off to you.

Thanks Eddie! I will personally service your order and get it mailed out to you first class within 24 hours of getting your money.

My last post was anything but succinct. You get me going on historical racing and my post becomes an endurance read! Sorry about that. My passion for vintage racing mirrors your own--we just enjoy it in different ways. It's all good, bro!

Take care, friend. I'm keeping an eye on that 1959 Yoo-Hoo Chocolate Drink Mickey Mantle that Robert Edward Auctions is currently offering. I would have loved to do a chapter on that rare bird. Not enough facts to fly with it. Better shush---I'm off the subject of Vintage Racing.

Best regards, Brian Powell

[Justus]

Another vintage racing fan here. I've been collecting STP cards for years but the last time I submitted any for grading was probably 8 years ago. Sent in a group of various cards last month and just got them back. Included were these 7. Certainly not top grades but I'll take anything in this set.

https://s12.postimg.org/iumn468n1/image.jpg

[Bored5000]

Justus, great to have another racing collector in the thread, especially a fan of the 1972 STP set. Thanks for sharing the picture. Those are nice looking cards. :)

I had seen there were Glotzbach, Brooks, Parsons, Hylton cards at auction/for sale on eBay a few months ago, and I noticed that the PSA population had increased recently. Before that, it was at least a year since the PSA population increased for any of the cards in the set.

With the recent find of Lorenzen cards, it seems the portrait version of his card is now accessible to any collector willing to pay for the card. There was only one Lorenzen with car card in that find. I am surprised the Bobby Allison card does not have more of a reputation as a legendary rarity. PSA's population only shows two graded Allison cards, and I have never seen one for sale or at auction. I went probably two years without ever seeing a Petty '72 STP card on eBay, but there have been four or five of them on eBay over the past year.

[Bored5000]

I am blown away by the ending price of an amazing autograph book of 1960s NASCAR racers that ended on eBay Wednesday night. The seller "youwin1415" has been listing all kinds of awesome racing items in recent months. I am not really an autograph guy, but the autograph book that ended tonight was just incredible -- I am still shocked at the $2,605 ending price. I figured the book would probably be around an $800-1,000 item, but two bidders put in huge snipes. My snipe never fired and was blown out of the water. :(

The book is just amazng, with dozen of autographs, including Fireball Roberts, Ralph Earnhardt, Dave MacDonald, Bobby Isaac, Billy Wade, Tiny Lund, Wendell Scott, Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Pardue, Jo Schlesser and tons of big name racers who did not perish in the '60s.

Just from looking at the list of names in the listing, there are at least seven drivers on the list who lost their lives racing in the 1960s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NASCAR-Autographed-book-EXTREMELY-RARE-/112396306162?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[Bored5000]

Yikes, I just looked at one of "youwin1415"'s other amazing autograph auctions that ended on Wednesday night. I did not have a snipe in for this one, but it is also incredible -- with autographs of open wheel racers Marshall Teague, Jimmy Bryan, Bill Vukovich, Carl Scarborough and more. Just the four names I listed all died prior to 1961.

As awesome as the item is, the ending price of $3,350 left me stunned. :eek: The same buyer won both this item and the one listed above.

From those not familiar, Scarborough died of heat exhaustion during the 1953 Indy 500. Bill Vukovich dominated the race en route to winning (then was killed while leading at Indy going for his third straight win two years later). After winning the '53 race (in which nearly a dozen drivers were treated for heat-related issues), Vukovich climbed out of his car in Victory Lane and remarked: "You think this is hot? You ought to drive a tractor in Fresno in July."

Numerous relief drivers had to be used that day due to the heat. Vukovich also commented following the race: "Every time I passed a car, it had a different driver in it."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CART-IndyCar-autographed-STANDARD-ad-/112396381480?hash=item1a2b58ad28%3Ag%3AFx0AAOSwdjN ZC-2r&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Justus]

LOL, my snipe wasn't activated either. Wow, impressive item.

I am blown away by the ending price of an amazing autograph book of 1960s NASCAR racers that ended on eBay Wednesday night. The seller "youwin1415" has been listing all kinds of awesome racing items in recent months. I am not really an autograph guy, but the autograph book that ended tonight was just incredible -- I am still shocked at the $2,605 ending price. I figured the book would probably be around an $800-1,000 item, but two bidders put in huge snipes. My snipe never fired and was blown out of the water. :(

The book is just amazng, with dozen of autographs, including Fireball Roberts, Ralph Earnhardt, Dave MacDonald, Bobby Isaac, Billy Wade, Tiny Lund, Wendell Scott, Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Pardue, Jo Schlesser and tons of big name racers who did not perish in the '60s.

Just from looking at the list of names in the listing, there are at least seven drivers on the list who lost their lives racing in the 1960s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NASCAR-Autographed-book-EXTREMELY-RARE-/112396306162?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[brian1961]

Yikes, I just looked at one of "youwin1415"'s other amazing autograph auctions that ended on Wednesday night. I did not have a snipe in for this one, but it is also incredible -- with autographs of open wheel racers Marshall Teague, Jimmy Bryan, Bill Vukovich, Carl Scarborough and more. Just the four names I listed all died prior to 1961.

As awesome as the item is, the ending price of $3,350 left me stunned. :eek: The same buyer won both this item and the one listed above.

From those not familiar, Scarborough died of heat exhaustion during the 1953 Indy 500. Bill Vukovich dominated the race en route to winning (then was killed while leading at Indy going for his third straight win two years later). After winning the '53 race (in which nearly a dozen drivers were treated for heat-related issues), Vukovich climbed out of his car in Victory Lane and remarked: "You think this is hot? You ought to drive a tractor in Fresno in July."

Numerous relief drivers had to be used that day due to the heat. Vukovich also commented following the race: "Every time I passed a car, it had a different driver in it."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CART-IndyCar-autographed-STANDARD-ad-/112396381480?hash=item1a2b58ad28%3Ag%3AFx0AAOSwdjN ZC-2r&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Loved your write-ups, Eddie. While I am not into autographs much at all, I must say that the names you mentioned among the autographs were immensely impressive. Rarity is not good enough to describe how difficult it would be to find autographs of these long-deceased auto racing greats. Racing drivers are wonderful with their fans, and do sign easily for the most part, but some of these guys have been gone since before I was born, or at least over 50 years.

Great story on Bill Vukovich, which I well remember reading on the 1953 500. The official film called that race "The Hottest 500". In the film Carl Scarborough is seen driving slowly into the pits, for the last time. The look on his face was terrible. What struck me was that he was wearing a solid black uniform, which would exacerbate the effect of the sunlight on him, contributing to his demise. How sad.

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......:(

Hope you're doing well, Eddie, and thanks for buying my book, and contributing to the thread of appreciation for it. I'm mighty grateful, my friend. Best regards, Brian Powell

[BruceinGa]

On the subject of racing, I thought some of you might find this photo interesting:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/BruceinGa/Classic%20Drag%20Racing/bruce35.jpg

[Bored5000]

Loved your write-ups, Eddie. While I am not into autographs much at all, I must say that the names you mentioned among the autographs were immensely impressive. Rarity is not good enough to describe how difficult it would be to find autographs of these long-deceased auto racing greats. Racing drivers are wonderful with their fans, and do sign easily for the most part, but some of these guys have been gone since before I was born, or at least over 50 years.

Great story on Bill Vukovich, which I well remember reading on the 1953 500. The official film called that race "The Hottest 500". In the film Carl Scarborough is seen driving slowly into the pits, for the last time. The look on his face was terrible. What struck me was that he was wearing a solid black uniform, which would exacerbate the effect of the sunlight on him, contributing to his demise. How sad.

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......:(

Hope you're doing well, Eddie, and thanks for buying my book, and contributing to the thread of appreciation for it. I'm mighty grateful, my friend. Best regards, Brian Powell

Thanks for the kind words, Brian. Both those autograph books were amazing, The NASCAR book even had a guy like Frenchman Jo Schlesser, who only made two career NASCAR starts (he finished 13th in the '64 Daytona 500) before being killed in the '68 French Grand Prix in a Honda that John Surteees refused to drive because he called it a potential "deathtrap."

The seller has listed all kind of amazing racing items in recent months. He has had a couple different autographs of Friday Hassler (killed at Daytona in 1972), LeeRoy Yarbrough (institutionalized in a mental hospital in 1980 and dead four years later), Marshall Teague (killed while attempting to set a closed-course speed record at Daytona in 1959), Red Byron (NASCAR's first champion died of a heart attack in 1960), Mark Donahue (killed at the '75 Austrian Grand Prix), Modified stars Richie Evans and Charlie Jarzombek (killed in 1985 and 1987, respectively, at Martinsville), Curtis Turner (killed in a plane crash in 1970), Bruce McLaren (killed testing in England in 1970), Pedro Rodriguez (killed in a sports car race in West Germany in 1971), Sprint Car driver Johnny Thomson (killed in Allentown, Pa., in 1960), Gordon Smiley (killed in a brutal 1982 Indy crash), Barney Oldfield (died in 1946), Rodney Orr (killed at Daytona in 1994), Al Holbert (killed in a 1988 plane crash), Bruce Jacobi (died in 1987 of injuries from a 1985 Daytona flip), Butch Lindley (died in 1990 of injuries in a 1985 DeSoto, Fla., crash) and Grant Adcox (killed at Atlanta in 1989)

I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but I highly recommend Art Garner's book on the 1964 Indy 500, "Black Noon." The book is incredible, and debunks some of the long-standing myths surrounding the tragic '64 race. The families of Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald both endorsed the book. MacDonald's widow is still alive and contributed to the book. Garner used over 30 sources for the book, including every living driver from the '64 500.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Noon-Year-They-Stopped/dp/1250075122/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494562936&sr=1-1&keywords=black+noon

[Bored5000]

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......:(



Funny you should mention the Jim Clark quote. It has been several years since I have read the Garner book, but that is one of the things Garner discusses in the book. Garner indicated that the famous Clark quote may not have actually ever happened. Garner put an amazing amount of research into the book, and he could not find anyone who could confirm that the discussion ever happened (not even MacDonald's wife). Garner wrote in the book that Clark and MacDonald were acquaintances at best, and Clark did not have the type of personality to just go up to other racers and freely dispense advice.

Who knows what the truth really is?

Garner also went into depth on the career of MacDonald (and Sachs as well), and how a great racer has now been reduced to being known solely for causing the worst crash in Indy history. The Thompson cars had battled problems all month long with the front end lifting off the ground and becoming uncontrollable.

[tiger8mush]

On the subject of racing, I thought some of you might find this photo interesting:

wow, dangerous sport for the fans

[BruceinGa]

wow, dangerous sport for the fans

Yes, 20+ were killed.:(

[Justus]

Glad to see this thread getting some action again. SO much information and history, thanks!

I've had these cards a while and decided to throw them in with a submission of football cards I had going to PSA. Got them back recently...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6cpdh5ThLBIjNHYl8lhgGTq6nyzCx8ZyOybzUGYyLAqQetIEms k-p7EZBlAL84IywoXYVz_NcxA0eZ-jJBj2gKdg4pooFxBr4tkZBNQv0y1hlReRsShUf4Gb0L_SP43yn 26FFBPQWRwkO2gayLyua8g4a_gFEQ-RdZ2t2kp8XM1IjUDCOAWUEx-DxZHYl5X2Wf07lOICxgW6OIhghDWvvDyUmjM51MExanaMsmg6m IECh2hFk2Ck8QEKzOMYU6njqkow-x_MoxN2t7LwaHI3HjohPQB2nGEBdXz-Hvt4am9_sxI_-4xPmSDvx6GGrNXl1qR0ESd86Pa9FqE3VVSs7GgguRCaSPx_9Jc tg7RDGbCOewqHFPwtU1OES2haKTL_ZYu8g92OyT5NJVDKG1dyq 9nCU_0Z1EpvJsDJVzcaU2yUUNqrhe0QpF4rNP7QT9opVEESjLk WS41KZoK-MQCHm-eqqA1c4Qrmra_Au-t7CDh3w8rWYsaRsexR0jLgYDHwMnOFIZ7YVia8Bz5tT-V9TyKdbFb-uItn_n_ChpwWcY--Wls883_BtXRPT3AGu64wemTYA71NNikNGy6SFnSrFQcPa13V1I USxqdZkf3NoGUE4UBDdQgFhg=w755-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qEyGW68x8Eh6dwkxklH1ESPRQhqAw61JHCTi-BufUsZsTn5wjo-p1TXO8K9k6FIfxaNX_EyKKOtQ_d7IPm2zmF6voO4WSn2VKPUTy mS7o21c9JM3eI244imfgMHu_VFQrQNp6GYmSoeUU-QrGT1yRfjFbD6fUKKLuDi1_NupwYYdz2jkNzMRwRLV57hZJHWo 8e-XRtT6cUBaee4HWCH-ZmpN6l3oZQ6xAil5DN1vklG8vNT1xtOt4NwpLTag4wzfyjUr53 8indEuRQjb9GAFzNfcKQkj4-MkEVXcbLf9CHbTmQwqXlWnKhFceJavHSwloMh9DTor5bUMtgxs vK2wk3Vnv7OxuB78GNTWGw5ADBpl7l3k0K8rMHuTxu1p9Wt6MI qA_bfOdrYOnsQuSgftxrsmSNEtKSJiHdpTyBtfhUoTTVKe6oYI CFsVcHj3OtOyuNAzJQgyIcKNEShHTJMvueF0oQW3gbYwGJ76ao S0750MaR9_USGvM-DSyqJkrOraL9S7wBTzhIYesruHATgVwNTw47CijZbY26JQSjD6 vfIaSYkVq4UHJRgywCOZMl2XHXmPUh8IG466EUKwbmiWV4pEbm oaMnystrpcxtg8N8qR_5KvNQ=w791-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QgQdX-pO9xZSA3gMoy8Z6nu44ZOqpVO4Y20BJEgU-DKE6_9O-eCtN7vEQSmg0IlBKsMiSJG2uoYJ-x8YIHnjuJwEM0TWHFWfbSUfe9_2CLOfWQlUXfZ1Ue-99aVt3won2b22v50phRPdxYYG-rPMIbAZg1buVzcvsDQyFcU-9DQgBOXhSlBw2Hix5_60L8hZF0IRuJO-1W5JHaT75zjiFwQFvk-6esfSCulILmp-5JrJ6cJz06nNj7RZ5jjgg4tH210Oq3nJ7EN35wAlrT_SC-AisCZ9X6J4CyRur1c_OC2GKz8xCdXwo-MmCl9fhc5D0XgiUtghsACPhXHi-LiHCJ0BGRCZz2uP78_i7qc8Ivtk7wQjxp7rcLHphUzWVto3uQr t31Fr5GyMFHFoCRtrXedrPiJSyEtty6mzbSBe0S18CR7odaFlb 4vXCIJTlduK2fnTVMcgANNBRhImNM3nUF81TJsx7CSihPwhLBG ouOa27RgbNy8-J95xMJOm3LvF9GVWuiEpnl2Yw0bFclGeKiEGVfVMCvsHinbZB7 9y3CoqFX47r7x6vwFuEhCzKNc29Ad_EobGkP_Co-0SFrXCHgQXTzyXXDf-oOuUrSzp8QjXKV0-OQ=w788-h637-no
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https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/im9lvTV_yY2beO4XtrKJcI7lBF11AsMZOhk_oN86Tt6IN2VQDa QNL0YQcow0v83hiSRf-uff4X2g-TmWK60w7OV4KdnkIfZhLUHpnLHcpb9OqIkbOypJqR8f_lh0QI4 RQ8JPnE8CDbyspei59Ps11gf-FV4K4cxEriabquWxirexrbl8ojEjJt0eSIS2XiOZCIUzCY5cdN fVXG-v3R68lMkEcO0Zd1QO6WfhuqSW90V_iMiL7kczgVT1J0ZWMhU_9 xpuaPG0CI4Q4_naFF2oDFNIye15qB-ISwZGHkrgvxb1JmQH-H4OTMVHfxn7Rj5_a2yzU1lFDq4Dbg3XV3nUCn6JwDYfUswkr84 GzU2CheYA2esbyVetaJaczoz0rR65Txz1XUkhS2F70lBz5RjWV Z4nVQocGBJGEofdD_xAmey77D7hCgJlAJyk29_VpZandxCU6In l9ql6x71QUGZOrQJup0Sr_7FoEVkIu4NKROyihk0a-px-4MO8m2JlhANoo_X7tLIoODvlc2vQYuOZl_hgTax_Q_8kutDSyr xUqqCdO28SUA8tsMo2IC_7KjjSYSTRzrkHAm001493736zeBI-8HG-2UW2y8J5hBbU5Uzu53-wgQ=w385-h637-no

[brian1961]

Funny you should mention the Jim Clark quote. It has ben several years I have read the Garner book, but that is one of the things Garner discusses in the book Garner indicated that the famous Clark quote may not have actually ever happened. Garner put an amazing amount of research into the book, and he could not find anyone who could confirm that the discussion ever happened (not even MacDonald's wife). Garner wrote in the book that Clark and MacDonald were acquaintances at best, and Clark did not have the type of personality to just go up to other racers and freely dispense advice.

Who knows what the truth really is?

Garner also went into depth on the career of MacDonald (and Sachs as well), and how a great racer has now been reduced to being known solely for causing the worst crash in Indy history. The Thompson cars had battled problems all month long with the front end lifting off the ground and becoming uncontrollable.

Eddie, it would have been nice if Mr. Garner could have pinned down the quote / conversation between Mr. Clark and Mr. MacDonald. I wonder if Jim observed the skittish nature of the Thompson car when Dave was driving it, and felt compelled to have a private conversation with him. Even if it wasn't Jim's nature to offer such advice, it seemed like everyone was disturbed by the cars even before the race. There are other factors. Dave's driving style was daring. He liked to hang it out and tiger. Mickey Thompson had thought he was being savvy by not ever topping up the tank during practice, nor allowing Dave to turn many complete laps in the erratic car, Mickey's reasoning being that he did not want his competitors to know what the car was capable of. As it was, Dave MacDonald was a great racer, but this was his first Indy 500. It all spelled doom. Dave needed experience in the car of many laps to get really comfortable with it. Also, as I recall reading in the feature article in SPORTS CARS INTERNATIONAL, Dave liked to hang it out. So, on the second lap Dave is rushing through the field to get to the front where he believed he could run, and the car has a completely full tank of fuel, which he was NOT accustomed to driving this thing with, and then he loses it as you well know coming out of the last turn.

I get sickened writing these words because after many years I became a big Dave MacDonald fan due to his work for Carroll Shelby and his Cobras, King Cobras, and the Cobra Daytona Coupe. Carroll Shelby was very, very upset about the loss of his driver and friend. The Daytona Coupe is the one of the most valuable American cars ever, based on its auction price several years ago.

Some of those names you mentioned----Marshall Teague, Fireball Roberts, Pedro Rodriguez, Mark Donohue, and Bobby Thomson----:(:(:(:(:(

It is indeed a cruel sport. The sight and sound of the cars, whether they're racing or right before your eyes, drives us car nuts on, I would say.

----Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Eddie, it would have been nice if Mr. Garner could have pinned down the quote / conversation between Mr. Clark and Mr. MacDonald. I wonder if Jim observed the skittish nature of the Thompson car when Dave was driving it, and felt compelled to have a private conversation with him. Even if it wasn't Jim's nature to offer such advice, it seemed like everyone was disturbed by the cars even before the race. There are other factors. Dave's driving style was daring. He liked to hang it out and tiger. Mickey Thompson had thought he was being savvy by not ever topping up the tank during practice, nor allowing Dave to turn many complete laps in the erratic car, Mickey's reasoning being that he did not want his competitors to know what the car was capable of. As it was, Dave MacDonald was a great racer, but this was his first Indy 500. It all spelled doom. Dave needed experience in the car of many laps to get really comfortable with it. Also, as I recall reading in the feature article in SPORTS CARS INTERNATIONAL, Dave liked to hang it out. So, on the second lap Dave is rushing through the field to get to the front where he believed he could run, and the car has a completely full tank of fuel, which he was NOT accustomed to driving this thing with, and then he loses it as you well know coming out of the last turn.

I get sickened writing these words because after many years I became a big Dave MacDonald fan due to his work for Carroll Shelby and his Cobras, King Cobras, and the Cobra Daytona Coupe. Carroll Shelby was very, very upset about the loss of his driver and friend. The Daytona Coupe is the one of the most valuable American cars ever, based on its auction price several years ago.

Some of those names you mentioned----Marshall Teague, Fireball Roberts, Pedro Rodriguez, Mark Donohue, and Bobby Thomson----:(:(:(:(:(

It is indeed a cruel sport. The sight and sound of the cars, whether they're racing or right before your eyes, drives us car nuts on, I would say.

----Brian Powell

Brian, after you mentioned the video of the 1953 500, I went to YouTube and watched "The Hottest 500." The color footage is really clear for 1953. Marshall Teague was actually the driver in the black uniform who looked terrible upon climbing out of his car. That is not a criticism in any way,; just an observation that I would have thought Teague was the driver that passed away due to the heat. I had read in the past, however, that Scarborough's body temperature was 104 degrees when he climbed out of his car.

The Garner book talked about Eddie Sachs stating before the race that he did not want to be anywhere near the Thompson cars because he was worried they were a wreck waiting to happen. MacDonald passed six cars on the opening lap, then crashed on the second lap. The Garner book talks about Thompson not running a full fuel load all month long.

A couple of the more interesting contributors to the Garner book were Humpy Wheeler and Bobby Unser. Wheeler was attending his first 500, as a young tire rep for Firestone. The Sachs/MacDonald crash happened at the opposite end of the track from Wheeler, so all he could see was massive black smoke and flames high in the sky. For the next several minutes, Wheeler thought the grandstands were on fire and a replay of the 1955 Le Mans disaster had just occurred.

Bobby Unser was knocked out of the race in the Sachs/MacDonald inferno. Unser related that many of the other drivers in the field looked visibly sick by what had just happened, and he was pretty certain a couple of drivers did not have the stomach to continue on when the race would inevitably restart. Unser walked up and down pit lane telling car owners that if their driver did not want to restart the race, he was willing to take their place. Unser found no open seats, however.

[Bored5000]

Glad to see this thread getting some action again. SO much information and history, thanks!

I've had these cards a while and decided to throw them in with a submission of football cards I had going to PSA. Got them back recently...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6cpdh5ThLBIjNHYl8lhgGTq6nyzCx8ZyOybzUGYyLAqQetIEms k-p7EZBlAL84IywoXYVz_NcxA0eZ-jJBj2gKdg4pooFxBr4tkZBNQv0y1hlReRsShUf4Gb0L_SP43yn 26FFBPQWRwkO2gayLyua8g4a_gFEQ-RdZ2t2kp8XM1IjUDCOAWUEx-DxZHYl5X2Wf07lOICxgW6OIhghDWvvDyUmjM51MExanaMsmg6m IECh2hFk2Ck8QEKzOMYU6njqkow-x_MoxN2t7LwaHI3HjohPQB2nGEBdXz-Hvt4am9_sxI_-4xPmSDvx6GGrNXl1qR0ESd86Pa9FqE3VVSs7GgguRCaSPx_9Jc tg7RDGbCOewqHFPwtU1OES2haKTL_ZYu8g92OyT5NJVDKG1dyq 9nCU_0Z1EpvJsDJVzcaU2yUUNqrhe0QpF4rNP7QT9opVEESjLk WS41KZoK-MQCHm-eqqA1c4Qrmra_Au-t7CDh3w8rWYsaRsexR0jLgYDHwMnOFIZ7YVia8Bz5tT-V9TyKdbFb-uItn_n_ChpwWcY--Wls883_BtXRPT3AGu64wemTYA71NNikNGy6SFnSrFQcPa13V1I USxqdZkf3NoGUE4UBDdQgFhg=w755-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qEyGW68x8Eh6dwkxklH1ESPRQhqAw61JHCTi-BufUsZsTn5wjo-p1TXO8K9k6FIfxaNX_EyKKOtQ_d7IPm2zmF6voO4WSn2VKPUTy mS7o21c9JM3eI244imfgMHu_VFQrQNp6GYmSoeUU-QrGT1yRfjFbD6fUKKLuDi1_NupwYYdz2jkNzMRwRLV57hZJHWo 8e-XRtT6cUBaee4HWCH-ZmpN6l3oZQ6xAil5DN1vklG8vNT1xtOt4NwpLTag4wzfyjUr53 8indEuRQjb9GAFzNfcKQkj4-MkEVXcbLf9CHbTmQwqXlWnKhFceJavHSwloMh9DTor5bUMtgxs vK2wk3Vnv7OxuB78GNTWGw5ADBpl7l3k0K8rMHuTxu1p9Wt6MI qA_bfOdrYOnsQuSgftxrsmSNEtKSJiHdpTyBtfhUoTTVKe6oYI CFsVcHj3OtOyuNAzJQgyIcKNEShHTJMvueF0oQW3gbYwGJ76ao S0750MaR9_USGvM-DSyqJkrOraL9S7wBTzhIYesruHATgVwNTw47CijZbY26JQSjD6 vfIaSYkVq4UHJRgywCOZMl2XHXmPUh8IG466EUKwbmiWV4pEbm oaMnystrpcxtg8N8qR_5KvNQ=w791-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QgQdX-pO9xZSA3gMoy8Z6nu44ZOqpVO4Y20BJEgU-DKE6_9O-eCtN7vEQSmg0IlBKsMiSJG2uoYJ-x8YIHnjuJwEM0TWHFWfbSUfe9_2CLOfWQlUXfZ1Ue-99aVt3won2b22v50phRPdxYYG-rPMIbAZg1buVzcvsDQyFcU-9DQgBOXhSlBw2Hix5_60L8hZF0IRuJO-1W5JHaT75zjiFwQFvk-6esfSCulILmp-5JrJ6cJz06nNj7RZ5jjgg4tH210Oq3nJ7EN35wAlrT_SC-AisCZ9X6J4CyRur1c_OC2GKz8xCdXwo-MmCl9fhc5D0XgiUtghsACPhXHi-LiHCJ0BGRCZz2uP78_i7qc8Ivtk7wQjxp7rcLHphUzWVto3uQr t31Fr5GyMFHFoCRtrXedrPiJSyEtty6mzbSBe0S18CR7odaFlb 4vXCIJTlduK2fnTVMcgANNBRhImNM3nUF81TJsx7CSihPwhLBG ouOa27RgbNy8-J95xMJOm3LvF9GVWuiEpnl2Yw0bFclGeKiEGVfVMCvsHinbZB7 9y3CoqFX47r7x6vwFuEhCzKNc29Ad_EobGkP_Co-0SFrXCHgQXTzyXXDf-oOuUrSzp8QjXKV0-OQ=w788-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/h89tUr0Mo3X5sSRYjVXnUiBNF4HA_Rw-R77le2wieuCGJJ0U8AUfpXj7xo2oV2ldizwnTI4bVRA-J4cFVaa4Zdk_ILNAGdtgBhU5qdECJcdXOV536itclfSbGlOe8U 7WWcKrL4wkLe2zqeBMEr_ElqB_cDHix4bYIzhkgF_CtkY3UzPB aLrquuFmwidgjFLST5yH3e9fd4HY1xVmCw0YXdNWxsw3Kms_Ad 988UpsKosbn1HoZP-jRQA6jRs9B6poxdfgFdtNCL6EHhdAVf3X8-ypBDDKTXVy0quZ6s2-QE33DnxDLKeM4vi_qRfX1C6UZ-dkDxY-0sdZ5W2ceM0YfAKi0cVLVK7AY4d0SbmyRlljoGPonOb0-wBuPevcDusvWp9qxkzTIA-CpovRZUEMrlNG7NbJrf4RrsCFiN6nTo_ObbAKccuCpLdLKdtWT dFjJX7zW179sag8V6WpeebBlHNTdw70LSDsdbgWRbS3lf5H-RUO_h5505RrICCF1CFjj32iOlfdbmivrhNAfIECEkgd1fB0Bc8 uodOoA9WEgleoaMJvLJqg2l-5w5lcaI2FRXtsmU-DPWIuDt_Ifozmb1PpdZ-FoLBi6Rulds5gPE9mDeZllw=w1123-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/im9lvTV_yY2beO4XtrKJcI7lBF11AsMZOhk_oN86Tt6IN2VQDa QNL0YQcow0v83hiSRf-uff4X2g-TmWK60w7OV4KdnkIfZhLUHpnLHcpb9OqIkbOypJqR8f_lh0QI4 RQ8JPnE8CDbyspei59Ps11gf-FV4K4cxEriabquWxirexrbl8ojEjJt0eSIS2XiOZCIUzCY5cdN fVXG-v3R68lMkEcO0Zd1QO6WfhuqSW90V_iMiL7kczgVT1J0ZWMhU_9 xpuaPG0CI4Q4_naFF2oDFNIye15qB-ISwZGHkrgvxb1JmQH-H4OTMVHfxn7Rj5_a2yzU1lFDq4Dbg3XV3nUCn6JwDYfUswkr84 GzU2CheYA2esbyVetaJaczoz0rR65Txz1XUkhS2F70lBz5RjWV Z4nVQocGBJGEofdD_xAmey77D7hCgJlAJyk29_VpZandxCU6In l9ql6x71QUGZOrQJup0Sr_7FoEVkIu4NKROyihk0a-px-4MO8m2JlhANoo_X7tLIoODvlc2vQYuOZl_hgTax_Q_8kutDSyr xUqqCdO28SUA8tsMo2IC_7KjjSYSTRzrkHAm001493736zeBI-8HG-2UW2y8J5hBbU5Uzu53-wgQ=w385-h637-no

Justus, maybe this is just a glitch on my end, but your images are not appearing for me.

[BeanTown]

Sometimes I bid on stuff that has the Wow factor. This panoramic I won not to long ago and want to contribute to the thread. I've copied and pasted Heritage's description

1910's Indianapolis 500 Panoramic Photograph. This Indianapolis 500 panoramic photograph pictures eleven vehicles with their drivers and team members lined up in front of a packed grandstand for an early installment of the iconic racing event. Panoramas from the early years of this race are hard to come by in any condition. The ones that have come up for sale are mostly aerial-type shots of the speedway. This one on offer here is one of the few (and most likely the earliest) which showcase the automobiles and the drivers. Measures 30.25x6.25". Some vertical creases, otherwise EX.

[irv]

Yes, 20+ were killed.:(

Wow! I assume that was a non sanctioned event or an event to showcase dragracing?

I use to follow NHRA religiously when we had ESPN and TNN but now all I get is reruns, occasionally. :mad:

[Justus]

Thanks Bored. I've checked it on Chrome and Safari, both signed into Net54 and not signed it, and they are showing for me. Anyone else having problems seeing the pics?

Justus, maybe this is just a glitch on my end, but your images are not appearing for me.

[Justus]

That is an incredible piece! Would love to have that framed on my wall.

Sometimes I bid on stuff that has the Wow factor. This panoramic I won not to long ago and want to contribute to the thread. I've copied and pasted Heritage's description

1910's Indianapolis 500 Panoramic Photograph. This Indianapolis 500 panoramic photograph pictures eleven vehicles with their drivers and team members lined up in front of a packed grandstand for an early installment of the iconic racing event. Panoramas from the early years of this race are hard to come by in any condition. The ones that have come up for sale are mostly aerial-type shots of the speedway. This one on offer here is one of the few (and most likely the earliest) which showcase the automobiles and the drivers. Measures 30.25x6.25". Some vertical creases, otherwise EX.

[BruceinGa]

Wow! I assume that was a non sanctioned event or an event to showcase dragracing?


Yes. It was March, 1969 at Yellow River Drag Strip, just east of Atlanta. Houston Platt loses control while racing Don Nicholson. I took the pic with a Polaroid camera.

[Bored5000]

Thanks Bored. I've checked it on Chrome and Safari, both signed into Net54 and not signed it, and they are showing for me. Anyone else having problems seeing the pics?

I changed browsers from Chrome to Firefox on my desktop and opened this thread on my phone, but was unable to get your pictures to appear for me. Weird, the STP images you posted in post No. 85 still appear for me. Maybe the glitch is just on my end. No big deal. I am glad the thread has come back to life; this is my favorite thread on the board. :)

You are right, that Indy 500 panoramic that Jay posted is an awesome piece.

[irv]

Yes. It was March, 1969 at Yellow River Drag Strip, just east of Atlanta. Houston Platt loses control while racing Don Nicholson. I took the pic with a Polaroid camera.

Wow! I didn't realize you took the picture. Not something I'd like to witness. :eek:

[BruceinGa]

Wow! I didn't realize you took the picture. Not something I'd like to witness. :eek:

It was not a good afternoon.

[Justus]

Do these work better, Eddie?
<a href="https://ibb.co/dj4C1Q"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/kKK1vk/IMG_2876.jpg" alt="IMG_2876" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />
<a href="https://ibb.co/gYcAo5"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/b8Yi85/IMG_2877.jpg" alt="IMG_2877" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/hARgvk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/cu4C1Q/IMG_2878.jpg" alt="IMG_2878" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/cM4ZFk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/fvPqo5/IMG_2879.jpg" alt="IMG_2879" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/fq0kMQ"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/eK8uFk/IMG_2880.jpg" alt="IMG_2880" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />

[irv]

It was not a good afternoon.

No, I don't imagine it was. Sorry you had to witness that. :(

[Snapolit1]

Great thread. I know nothing about racing but very cool to hear these stories.

[Snapolit1]

Great thread. I know nothing about racing but interesting to see these cards and hear these stories.

[Bored5000]

Do these work better, Eddie?
<a href="https://ibb.co/dj4C1Q"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/kKK1vk/IMG_2876.jpg" alt="IMG_2876" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />
<a href="https://ibb.co/gYcAo5"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/b8Yi85/IMG_2877.jpg" alt="IMG_2877" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/hARgvk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/cu4C1Q/IMG_2878.jpg" alt="IMG_2878" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/cM4ZFk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/fvPqo5/IMG_2879.jpg" alt="IMG_2879" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/fq0kMQ"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/eK8uFk/IMG_2880.jpg" alt="IMG_2880" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />

That works. :) Cool Marios. I know that price is determined by supply and demand, but it always surprises me that his '69 rookie card is not worth more -- given his worldwide accomplishments as an F1 world champion, Indy 500 winner and Daytona 500 winner. You'll never see someone do that again.

I have always liked the Sugar Daddy card of Evel Knievel because of the three images.

[Bored5000]

Great thread. I know nothing about racing but interesting to see these cards and hear these stories.

Thanks for checking out the thread. :)

[Cliff Bowman]

Yes. It was March, 1969 at Yellow River Drag Strip, just east of Atlanta. Houston Platt loses control while racing Don Nicholson. I took the pic with a Polaroid camera.

I had never heard of this incident until you mentioned it here, even though I've been living in the Atlanta area over 30 years. So, out of curiosity I researched it some. To this day it is still the worst US racing disaster. Just a few clarifications: Huston Platt was racing Frank Oglesby, who was driving Don Nicholson's car, a Cougar. At the 1,000-foot mark, Platt heard a bang and let off the throttle and deployed the parachute. As this happened, an idiot in the crowd ran out onto the track to retrieve a beer can and was killed instantly when he was hit by the parachute. The impact to the parachute caused the car to veer wildly into the crowd, killing ten more people, injuring 40 more. One of the injured died a few days later in an Atlanta hospital, bringing the death total to 12.

[brian1961]

[QUOTE=BruceinGa;1661320]It was not a good afternoon.[/Q

Since someone made reference to the Le Mans catastrophe, neither was the early evening of June 11, 1955. Really, no one single person was at fault. With the swiftly increasing speeds of the cars, the beautiful circuit had become unbelievably too dangerous at certain points on the course. The accident occurred at precisely such a spot. The spectator view was spectacular. As the tracked kinked, or turned slightly to the right, the width of the road shrinked just a tad.

A tad too much.

The worse case scenario.

Three cars were trying to get through this kink at the same time. All in their own way, a victim of circumstances.

Would some brave soul load up the image of Pierre Levegh's Mercedes, as it was filmed in mid-air, being shot by an amateur photographer whose arm or leg was broken in the crash, and whose film snapped at this instant. At least he came out alive. Eventually, the film was developed, and can actually be seen free on YOU TUBE.

Type:

The Worst Accident in Motorsports History (1955 Le Mans Disaster)

or

Le Mans 1955 accident: Raw footages of the crash in HD (read description)

I'm not getting my razzies from letting you in on this, merely to educate you about the absolute worst accident in automobile racing history. The film is extraordinary.

Numerous aftereffects occurred as a result of this catastrophe. Races were canceled. Racing was banned in Switzerland, which still holds today. Drivers suddenly or soon retired. The Mercedes-Benz company directors held a quick meeting, and seven hours after the accident, with their cars running a strong first and third, withdrew them from the race in honor and respect to those who perished, their bereaved families, and the many who were injured. For what it's worth, fans worldwide and vox populi understood and respected Mercedes for retiring their cars, with their lead car leading by 2 laps.

The other company refused to acknowledge ANY fault of its driver, and that car happened to win the race. Several photos taken of that driver after the event were not very flattering, and I know, deep, deep, deep down---he actually believed he had precipitated the accident. I read a mesmerizing first-hand account from Rob Walker in an early 90s Road & Track, where Rob encountered Mike Hawthorn at an enclosure / bar right after the accident. What Rob remembered Mike confessing is frankly haunting, and I am certain haunted Mr. Hawthorn the few years that he lived after the disaster.

Really, as I said before, there were several mitigating factors. The track was widened significantly for 1956, and the grandstands at that point moved back sufficiently to satisfy the officials who ran the race that such a tragedy would not re-occur. In the intervening years, many more barriers have been put up, and the cars have enough complicated spoilers and stablizers to make them much more controllable at speed. Be that as it may, racing is racing, and those cars are going over 200+ miles an hour. Anything could still happen, but the rules and regs and design of both the cars and the Le Mans circuit have been worked out extremely hard, to prevent another 11th of June 1955 from ever transpiring again.

Well, there have been a lot of accidents in motor racing history. As I said, the sight, sound, and smell of the racing cars are wondrous. The drivers really are a special breed of heroes.

Nice discussion.

As I mentioned to Eddie, I have never gravitated to racing cards, preferring models of the cars. After my dear Mother passed away in 1996, to deal with my grief and agony over losing her, I built a fantasy Dinky Toy of none other than the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SLR Le Mans racing sports car of Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss, car number 19 that was leading the race by two laps when it was withdrawn from the race. It took about 3 years of my free time, partly because I had to use an old John Day kit for a base. Those old kits required a LOT of work to make them look good. I stuffed it with a plethora of interior and exterior goodies and detail. I received major help from my modeler friend, Tim Dyke, from England. True, no Dinky Toy would ever have looked that good, but I took it from the standpoint of what I as a child would have loved to have seen on that exotic car. You see, my Mother and Dad gave me Dinky Toys as a kid for Christmas and birthdays. These got to my heart a few years before baseball cards were introduced to me.

I apologize for the long, long post. This is a very personal thing that means a great deal to me.

If you've read this far, thank you, sincerely, for listening to an old man who misses his dear Mother on Mother's Day.

Best regards, guys. ---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Great post, Brian. The 1955 Le Mans disaster also occurred against the backdrop of fierce nationalism. The German national anthem was not played prior to the race, and cars were painted colors based on the country of the manufacturer. The car of Pierre Levegh, who was killed in the crash, went into the crowd and officially 83 people were killed in the worst racing accident of all-time. Levegh's car disintegrated and caught fire upon entering the crowd. The dislodged engine, hood and front end assembly acted as a guillotine and decapitated over a dozen spectators. The disaster was made even worse when track workers doused the magnesium fueled inferno with water.

It has long been speculated that even more than 83 spectators actually died in the Le Mans Disaster.

As Brian mentioned, Mercedes was leading the race when team bosses elected to withdraw from the race several hours after the incident. Race organizers and Mercedes officials were keenly aware of the optics of a German manufacturer winning such a major race after a German car went into the stands and killed dozens of Frenchmen just a decade after World War II.

Who exactly was most at fault for the Le Mans Disaster has been debated for decades, and multiple books have been written on the topic. It is generally acknowledged that the Mercedes Levegh was driving was more car than he was able to handle, but perhaps Levegh was simply put in an impossible position in a split second. Eventual winner Mike Hawthorn usually receives much of the blame for causing the accident by abruptly darting into the pits, and Hawthorn allegedly acknowledged his role in causing the worst crash in racing history shortly after the incident occurred.

Famed racer Stirling Moss has said in the past that the problem with Le Mans at the time was that there were 120 drivers, 20 of whom were the best in the world. "The rest were idiots," said Moss of the amateur/sportsman drivers who were sprinkled throughout the field at Le Mans.

The race continued to its conclusion, at least in part because officials were concerned that the large crowd leaving the track all at once would clog up the roadways for ambulances trying to take the 100+ critically injured fans to hospitals. No announcement was ever made that anything out of the ordinary had occurred, and many fans elsewhere on the speedway grounds did not have any idea what had happened until after the race was over (several days later in some cases)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEk85gKJN6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz2VezfEWXQ

http://jalopnik.com/just-how-horrifying-was-the-worst-crash-in-motorsports-1589382023 (this is an amazing article on the Le Mans Disaster)

[brian1961]

Thanks for your kind words, Eddie. It took me a good while to type and edit the thread, but it was worth it. Somehow, I felt someone good at loading up You Tube videos would come to my rescue and do as I suggested. I'm not surprised in the least it was you. Thank you, my friend.

Oh, the finger pointing that went on, especially at poor Levegh. He really was made the scapegoat. While he was nowhere near as good as the two greatest drivers in the world at that moment, Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss, doing great battle with another of the top 20, Hawthorn, Levegh did very well with the 300SLR. He was getting better and better.

My aforementioned modeler friend, Tim Dyke, pointed out to me some years back that in the video you posted of the lead-up to the catastrophe, when Mike Hawthorn slammed on his brakes (powerful DISC brakes, mind you!) Austin Healey driver Lance Macklin had to stand on his brakes immediately to prevent smashing into him. However, Lance also pulled over gently, BUT HE PULLED OVER WAY TOO FAR, and so Pierre Levegh hardly had enough room to negotiate the slight bend and pass safely by Macklin. He almost made it, but instead of crunching in Macklin's tail end, it served as a launching pad...........:(

I watched the clip several times and Tim is absolutely correct. It takes some resolute deep honesty for an Englishman to admit this, too.

Also, lest anyone say anything they might regret, remember all this was happening at 150-160 miles per hour, with Macklin slightly down from his top speed of 145-150 when he braked. Remember in your life when someone hurriedly said to you," THINK FAST!", and tossed something at you at the same time? Reaction time for all of this was in seconds to milliseconds.

I just shake my head at the horror of the whole thing. The first 2 1/2 hours had been perhaps the best actual racing between 2 cars at the Sarthe (Le Mans). The battle between Fangio's Mercedes and Hawthorn's Jaguar was monumental. Everybody was having such a great time....

Eddie, after I wrote my thread response post, I went downstairs to gaze at my fantasy Dinky Toys Mercedes. It's been 17 years since I completed it, but I still get a big kick out of viewing it. Very fulfilling, that project.

Take care, my friend. If you ever want to set up a phone chat, PM me. Recently, another customer of mine and I spent a delightful 2 1/2 hours on the phone. I think we both needed it. ---Brian Powell

[BruceinGa]

Huston Platt was racing Frank Oglesby, who was driving Don Nicholson's car, a Cougar. At the 1,000-foot mark, Platt heard a bang and let off the throttle and deployed the parachute. As this happened, an idiot in the crowd ran out onto the track to retrieve a beer can and was killed instantly when he was hit by the parachute. The impact to the parachute caused the car to veer wildly into the crowd, killing ten more people, injuring 40 more. One of the injured died a few days later in an Atlanta hospital, bringing the death total to 12.

At the race we assumed it was Nicholson because his name was on the car. As you can see by my photo no one was retrieving a beer can, they were just over the fence so they could get a better view. I have newspaper clippings that state 20+ were killed that day and several others died later.
Maybe I don't remember correctly, I'll check into that.
It took me an hour to find the newspaper clippings. I was wrong, 11 died that day. It's odd that you get something in your mind and you could swear that it was right, until you see it in writing.

[brian1961]

At the race we assumed it was Nicholson because his name was on the car. As you can see by my photo no one was retrieving a beer can, they were just over the fence so they could get a better view. I have newspaper clippings that state 20+ were killed that day and several others died later.
Maybe I don't remember correctly, I'll check into that.
It took me an hour to find the newspaper clippings. I was wrong, 11 died that day. It's odd that you get something in your mind and you could swear that it was right, until you see it in writing.

I can sure relate to that. Memory does funny things to you when you try to retrieve it 40 years later.:mad: However, when researching and writing my book on postwar regional baseball cards of 1947 - 1971, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN, I painstakingly checked and double-checked facts of all sorts, taped interview transcriptions, and so on----to get it right! A few times I was annoyed to discover I didn't remember "it" as it actually was, and the correction was made in time! So far, I've only found two typographical errors, which still enraged me, but then I had to console myself over the fact it's 478 pages in length. For those with tendonitis in their wrists, they will enjoy an E-book on a CD, as opposed to a heavy book to hold!

Don't feel bad, bro. The tragedy you've been recounting was flat-out bad, and in a disturbing way, parallels the '55 LeMans catastrophe in that spectators were jammed to the edge of the fence to get a better view. Looking directly right from where they were, they could see the speeding cars, for a few seconds, coming right at them....., just as the gentleman with the camera was, whose amazing footage was loaded up on You Tube, and linked here.

---Brian Powell

[Snapolit1]

Thought you racing guys would like this. Just came across in an email.

http://www.auctionzip.com/auction-catalog/catalog_NAJG4FQNR7

[Beansballcardblog]

I love the Andretti Panini cards. They are in the top ten on my "want" list. I'll be fine with an ungraded, poor copy.

I wrote a post on my personal blog (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/05/my-favorite-piece-of-memorabilia.html) six days ago about a piece of Jimmy McElreath memorabilia. He passed away today at 89.

Also, if anyone is going to be in Indianapolis on race weekend, the Indy Memorabilia Show (https://www.facebook.com/IndyMemorabilia) is the day before the race.

-kin

[Bored5000]

I love the Andretti Panini cards. They are in the top ten on my "want" list. I'll be fine with an ungraded, poor copy.

I wrote a post on my personal blog (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/05/my-favorite-piece-of-memorabilia.html) six days ago about a piece of Jimmy McElreath memorabilia. He passed away today at 89.

Also, if anyone is going to be in Indianapolis on race weekend, the Indy Memorabilia Show (https://www.facebook.com/IndyMemorabilia) is the day before the race.

-kin

Awesome Jim McElreath piece. The man had a lot of sorrow in his life. McElreath 's son, Jim Jr., was a rising open wheel driver who was killed at age 23 in a Sprint Car at Winchester (Ind.) in 1977. His daughter, Shirley, married racer Tony Bettenhausen Jr. and was killed along with Bettenhausen in a 2000 plane crash.

I read in the past that when Jim Jr. was killed at Winchester, Jim Sr. took the car back to his home in Texas and left the car sitting as it was for years.

Here is a great Robin Miller profile of Jim McElreath that was posted a few hours ago.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/140576-jim-mcelreath-1928-2017

[Beansballcardblog]

I just did a little internet reach and found his address (I wish it wasn't easy for people to find stuff like that). I knew he was also an Arlington resident. Went to the stepson's choir banquet Saturday night and apparently I was right there by him. I wish I could have met him one time and shaken his hand.

-kin

[Beansballcardblog]

I missed out on one a couple of months ago that was in my sweet spot. Got the eBay email but when I saw it and clicked, it had sold. Alas.

-kin


Kin, if you keep an eye out, the Mulford card from the T227 set does pop up at a more reasonable price from time to time. All four of the cards in that REA lot are either the"highest graded" for that particular card or tied for "highest graded" honors for that particular card. A couple registry collectors are most likely what is driving up the price of that lot.

[Bored5000]

I won the lot of Marhoefer Meats Indy cards at Sterling Auctions earlier this morning. The lot is actually a mix of 1962 and '63 cards (the distinguishing feature is the shape and location of the driver portrait on each card). The cards all show stains/discolorations from being included in packs of hot dogs. All the cards present poor to fair, but the big pick-up in the lot is a 1962 A.J. Foyt Marhoefer card. Foyt's card is one of the nicer cards in the lot.

I have wanted a Foyt Marhoefer card for a while now. There has been a beat up, hot dog stained Foyt Marhoefer card on eBay for a while now at the museum price of $795. :eek: Even with the hot dog stains, I am happy to pick up a Foyt Marhoefer card for a little over $100; they just don't come available very often.

There are nicer, unstained Marhoefer cards in the hobby that were presumably given out as hand outs and not placed in product packages. But like I said, any Foyt Marhoefer card has been on my want list for a while now. Marhoefer cards in general rarely appear at auction, and the same cards sit on eBay forever at sky-high BINs. The Foyt card on eBay is priced about 10 times what it would sell for at auction in that condition.

http://www.sterlingsportsauctions.com/1962_Marhoefer_Meats_Airplanes___Racers_Lot_of__11-LOT39749.aspx

[Beansballcardblog]

I was missing from this thread for awhile and am now trying to catch up.


I only moved to Texas three years ago. I lived in Indianapolis for almost a decade, which rekindled my love of IndyCar, specifically the 500.
I grew up in West Virginia and watched the 500 most years.
I got into NASCAR around 1995 or so, but my interest started waning in the early 2000s.

I think my dad wanted me to be more into cards and racing as a kid,
but I knew I was going to be a pro baseball player and wasn't interested.
Hindsight is always 20/20!

I've attended one F1 and one NASCAR race (both at IMS). I've attended the Indianapolis 500 three times as a fan and two other times was on the grounds. For two years that I worked for Lids and they were the official retailer of the IndyCar series, I was a part of the buying and merchandising team. Since moving to Texas, I've attended the Firestone 600 1+ times. I went in 2015 and last year was there for the first night that never started. I decided not to go back the next day because I wasn't feeling well and it was about 100 degrees with 500% humidity. Haven't decided yet if I'm going this year.



I don't think this has been asked yet in this thread, but did any of you grow up going to local racing? I see that Kin is from Texas, but I am not sure where Brian is from? As I mentioned earlier, my parents began taking me to dirt track races in the Northeast when I was just a few months old. All through my teenage years, my 20s and into my 30s, I was going to local races every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night.

Over a 15-year period, I averaged about 90+ races a year.I don't go to nearly that many races anymore, but local racing is still a big part of my life. I never got into any trouble when I was in my teens because I was always at the races every weekend. I have been to right around 200 tracks in my lifetime, stretching all over the Northeast and a smattering of tracks in the Midwest and Southeast.

Did any of you attend local Modified or Late Model or Sprint Car races? I did not mention some of the other great racing books I have read in recent years because I don't know if there is any interest on the board or if the topic of local short-track racing is outside of this thread's racing interest. :)

[brian1961]

Congratulations, Eddie, on the Marhoefer Meat cards pick-up. Even I have heard of these tough-to-get racing cards. There's a guy in Columbia City, Indiana that deals in a lot of the post-war regional / food cards. Off-hand, I cannot recall his name, but he knows very well of how much racing collectors cherish these cards---by the impressive prices I seem to remember him charging!:rolleyes:

No different than the baseball card collectors obsessed with the "free prizes" in, or on, hot dog packages.:D

Have a great weekend, my friend. Again, congrats on the pick-up, especially the A. J. Foyt. One of my favorite models I own is the IXO 1/43 diecast of the 1967 Ford Mark IV that AJ shared with Dan Gurney to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Great race, great-looking car, great driver pairing--and the only time they were paired together.

---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Congratulations, Eddie, on the Marhoefer Meat cards pick-up. Even I have heard of these tough-to-get racing cards. There's a guy in Columbia City, Indiana that deals in a lot of the post-war regional / food cards. Off-hand, I cannot recall his name, but he knows very well of how much racing collectors cherish these cards---by the impressive prices I seem to remember him charging!:rolleyes:

No different than the baseball card collectors obsessed with the "free prizes" in, or on, hot dog packages.:D

Have a great weekend, my friend. Again, congrats on the pick-up, especially the A. J. Foyt. One of my favorite models I own is the IXO 1/43 diecast of the 1967 Ford Mark IV that AJ shared with Dan Gurney to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Great race, great-looking car, great driver pairing--and the only time they were paired together.

---Brian Powell

Thanks, Brian. I have about 25-30 cards on my want list and within my budget. The two racing cards currently at the top of my want list are a 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphic Dale Earnhardt and a T36 Barney Oldfield. You wouldn't think a card from 1986 would be that tough, but the Earnhardt card from that set is short-printed; they just don't come available very often. Aside from a cheesy card in the 1983 Uno set and some early postcards, the Sports-Star Photo-Graphics card is the Earnhardt card to have, IMO.

[steve B]

Since we're close to the topic, it's interesting how racing tragedies change the sport and occasionally history in general.

While it's not modern racing, this one had a major effect beyond the sport.
A sport called motorpacing was very popular before WWI especially in Europe. It's basically a combination of bicycle and motorcycle racing. The bicycle rider follows the motorcycle around the track at high speed. Typically around 40, but sometimes a lot higher. The riders were very well paid.

On June 18, 1909 at Berlin, one of the motorbikes - then huge specialized things often with a driver and a heavy guy on the back to make a bigger windscreen- along with he bike rider went into the crowd and caught fire.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=22552

9 killed and by some accounts 52 injured.
Prussian authorities banned motorpacing, and overall the sport lost much of its popularity.
It had always been dangerous, but was becoming less manageable. (The berlin track was also massively substandard for that sort of racing even by the loose standards of the time. )

As the sport became less popular, and fewer races were held, the riders began moving on to other things to make money. Some went into racing motorcycles, others got in an entirely new field that promised similar money with occasionally less risk. Early aviation! Many motorpace riders became pilots doing the rounds of the air shows. Best of all, the money was appearance money and a plane that actually flew wasn't necessarily a requirement. Many did fly, and at the time, that was also risky. Those early aviators provided a core of experienced pilots when WWI put and end to the air show circuit.

The sport survived, had a decent revival in the 30's as part of 6 day races, and is still done today.

Here's a motorpace bike from probably the early 30's.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=15693

Steve B

[Bored5000]

So many of the safety innovations that are now taken for granted in racing came about due to a specific tragedy:

* Two-time defending NASCAR champion Joe Weatherly was killed in 1964 when his head struck a barrier at Riverside (Calif.) Raceway. Weatherly was not wearing a shoulder harness nor using a window net. Following Richard Petty's spectacular flip at Darlington (S.C.), in which his head actually hit the pavement during the crash, window nets became mandatory to prevent a driver's head from moving outside the cockpit.

* The 1964 Indy inferno that killed both Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald resulted in Indy requiring at least two pit stops the following year. What that rule did was eliminate the use of gasoline, since there was no longer any point in using the more fuel efficient (and highly flammable) gasoline.

* Fireball Roberts' fiery fatal crash at Charlotte (N.C.) six days prior to the Sachs/MacDonald double fatality resulted in the requirement of a fuel-cell inner-liner to prevent catastrophe in the event of a ruptured fuel cell. Roberts' death also led to NASCAR requiring drivers to wear flame-retardant coveralls when racing.

The deaths of Sachs, MacDonald and Roberts also led to more effort being put into developing better flame-retardant substances/uniforms. Dupont was at the forefront of developing fire-retardant Nomex that is still used in modern racing uniforms.

* Billy Wade's 1965 death while tire testing at Daytona (Fla.) led to the modern racing safety harness. Wade was killed when the lap belt he was using compressed his intestines and caused them to rupture. The solution was a third belt that attached to the floor of the car and prevented the lap belt from riding up and compressing a driver's intestines in the event of a crash.

Wade's death also led to the development of a better tire inner-liner in the event of a tire blowout.

* Jim Hickman's fatal stuck throttle at the Milwaukee (Wis.) Mile in 1982 led CART to instantly require a "kill switch" on the steering wheel that would shut off power when pressed. NASCAR took nearly 20 years (and the deaths of Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin due to stuck throttles) to mandate the same requirement.

* Most recently, the death of Dale Earnhardt and numerous other drivers led to racing organizations large and small to require the HANS Device (or a similar head and neck restraint system) to greatly reduce the chance of a basilar skull fracture.

[brian1961]

Superb post, Eddie, as always. Honestly, I was not aware of several of the cause of death accidents and the resultant solutions that bettered the safety of all drivers (Billy Wade and Jim Hickman incidents).

I have often pointed out to people that racing has developed numerous mandatory safety innovations and efficiency improvements. One of my favorites was used on the winning car of the inaugural 1911 Indianapolis 500. That car, the Marmon Wasp, was fitted with-----the first rear view mirror.;)

---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Superb post, Eddie, as always. Honestly, I was not aware of several of the cause of death accidents and the resultant solutions that bettered the safety of all drivers (Billy Wade and Jim Hickman incidents).

I have often pointed out to people that racing has developed numerous mandatory safety innovations and efficiency improvements. One of my favorites was used on the inaugural 1911 Indianapolis 500 winning car, The Marmon Wasp-----the first rear view mirror.;)

---Brian Powell

Thanks, Brian. The Jim Hickman story came from Dr. Steve Olvey's book. Olvey mentioned repeatedly in his book that NASCAR was a donkey series safety-wise right up until Earnhardt's death in 2001. In the 1970s, the doctors staffing some NASCAR tracks were so sketchy that A.J. Foyt paid out of his own pocket to have Dr. Olvey in his pit area whenever Foyt ran a NASCAR race and Dr. Olvey was available. Basically, the main requirement for being a doctor staffing a NASCAR race in the 1970s was that the doctor would work for free.

At some 1970s Cup races, the most qualified doctor servicing the race would sometimes be an optometrist or other doctor woefully unqualified to deal with any type of traumatic injury should the need arise. Foyt was terrified of being critically injured at a NASCAR race and having an eye doctor decide whether or not an arm or a leg needed to be amputated.

Olvey also related a story about Foyt's pathological fear of the color green (like many old school racers). Olvey talked about accompanying Foyt to a 1970s Cup race and Olvey stopping at a local convenience store the morning of the race to purchase a cooler and some sodas for the day's event. Naturally, the cooler was green. Shortly after arriving at the track, Olvey heard Foyt ranting and raving and swearing before taking a tire iron to the unattended cooler that had suddenly appeared in his pit area. When asked by Foyt if he knew whose green cooler that was, Olvey simply shrugged and said he did not have any idea.

Here is are several different articles in this link that talk about Billy Wade's crash and how it led to modern racing seatbelts.

http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Billy_Wade.htm

[bnorth]

I picked up 33 of these Fleer AHRA cards from a member in a trade. I know very little about them but when I saw them I knew they had to be mine. Brought back many memories of watching drag racing as a kid.

Great thread guys, a big thank you to everyone that posted, awesome info.

[Beansballcardblog]

Picked up some more cards for my T36 set!

Rolling 7s. (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/06/rolling-7s.html)

[brian1961]

Picked up some more cards for my T36 set!

Rolling 7s. (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/06/rolling-7s.html)

Congratulations, Kin. Sweet blog---well done. ---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

I finally had time to scan my Foyt Marhoefer card. The lot I won at Sterling are my first Marhoefer cards. The cards are thick, rigid cardboard; that makes sense since most of the cards were using as a backing for packs of wieners.

Cards do exist that were never placed in product packages, but all the cards in the lot I won were definitely inserted in packages. The cards may not be the nicest, but a Foyt Marhoefer is tough to come by in any condition.

If anyone in this thread in interested in a type card sample other than A.J. Foyt, I would sell an example for $20 net delivered.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20front06112017_zpsgpu7xsp n.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20front06112017_zpsgpu7xsp n.jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20back06112017_zpsqi6afcqz .jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20back06112017_zpsqi6afcqz .jpg.html)

[Beansballcardblog]

Congrats on picking up that AJ. It's certainly in the top 10 of cards I want. I don't have any of the Marhoefer cards yet. I also really want the Lloyd Ruby. I've read a couple of books on him and have become a fan even though I never saw him race.

-kin

I finally had time to scan my Foyt Marhoefer card. The lot I won at Sterling are my first Marhoefer cards. The cards are thick, rigid cardboard; that makes sense since most of the cards were using as a backing for packs of wieners.

Cards do exist that were never placed in product packages, but all the cards in the lot I won were definitely inserted in packages. The cards may not be the nicest, but a Foyt Marhoefer is tough to come by in any condition.

If anyone in this thread in interested in a type card sample other than A.J. Foyt, I would sell an example for $20 net delivered.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20front06112017_zpsgpu7xsp n.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20front06112017_zpsgpu7xsp n.jpg.html)

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah224/Bored5000/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20back06112017_zpsqi6afcqz .jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Bored5000/media/AJ%20Foyt%20Marhoefer/A.J.%20Foyt%20Marhoefer%20back06112017_zpsqi6afcqz .jpg.html)

[Bored5000]

Congrats on picking up that AJ. It's certainly in the top 10 of cards I want. I don't have any of the Marhoefer cards yet. I also really want the Lloyd Ruby. I've read a couple of books on him and have become a fan even though I never saw him race.

-kin

Thanks, Kin. Congrats on your recent T36 pick ups as well. I enjoy the write-ups you do about each card on your blog. Nice to see your blog has some other followers, based on the people who left comments about your T36s. :)

I would like to pick up a Eddie Sachs Marhoefer card if I ever saw one at auction (he lived and is buried only about 45 minutes from me). Sachs is such a sad figure in racing history. He was leading the Indy 500 with three laps to go in 1961, but decided to pit out of the lead when he felt a tire coming apart. He ultimately finished second to Foyt that year. The Sachs quote after deciding to give up the lead with three laps to go in the '61 race was made all the more eerie after he was killed with Dave MacDonald in the Indy inferno three years later:

"I'd sooner finish second than be dead," Sachs said after the '61 race.

[Beansballcardblog]

Not sure if you listen to podcasts, or to the weekly "Trackside" radio show out of Indianapolis. During May, they posted some Indy 500 in 60 (minutes) episodes on their iTunes page. The '61 race was one of them. I enjoyed listening to the old radio calls.


Thanks, Kin. Congrats on your recent T36 pick ups as well. I enjoy the write-ups you do about each card on your blog. Nice to see your blog has some other followers, based on the people who left comments about your T36s. :)

I would like to pick up a Eddie Sachs Marhoefer card if I ever saw one at auction (he lived and is buried only about 45 minutes from me). Sachs is such a sad figure in racing history. He was leading the Indy 500 with three laps to go in 1961, but decided to pit out of the lead when he felt a tire coming apart. He ultimately finished second to Foyt that year. The Sachs quote after deciding to give up the lead with three laps to go in the '61 race was made all the more eerie after he was killed with Dave MacDonald in the Indy inferno three years later:

"I'd sooner finish second than be dead," Sachs said after the '61 race.

[LuckyLarry]

Any idea about what this card is? Appears to be 1967 Indy "jet/turbine" car #40 driven by Parnelli Jones car owner Andy Granatelli. Card is blank backed 4.5 inches X 2.5 inches.
Larry
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=542&pictureid=22967

[Beansballcardblog]

Very nice card, Larry! That's one on my wish list.

It is the 1970 Fleer Dragstrips "card."

Beckett's set information: "Fleer produced this 10-card set primarily as backers for their Dragstrips stickers. With each 5-cent wax pack, collector's received one of these cards and a group of automotive stickers. The cards are oversized (approximately 2-1/2" by 4-1/2") and blankbacked as are the sticker sheets. The black and white cards feature uncaptioned photos of top racers with an emphasis on Andy Granatelli and the STP IndyCar race team. We've assigned card numbers according to alphabetical order."

Jones is one of those racers I admire so much because he raced just about anything on four wheels.

Any idea about what this card is? Appears to be 1967 Indy "jet/turbine" car #40 driven by Parnelli Jones car owner Andy Granatelli. Card is blank backed 4.5 inches X 2.5 inches.
Larry
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=542&pictureid=22967

[LuckyLarry]

Thanks for the info Kin. Bargain box find at the National....
Larry

[Beansballcardblog]

Awesome! I'm also looking for the Lloyd Ruby (car) from that set but haven't seen it. I don't believe these are too common, so great find!

Thanks for the info Kin. Bargain box find at the National....
Larry

[Bored5000]

Sucks that I lost all my images in this thread with Photobucket going to a pay service. When I have time, I will have to move my images to another photo hosting site.

[Bored5000]

I have been at nine of 11 cards for the 1972 STP for a while now. I was pumped to see a lot of nine different drivers (10 cards total) show up on eBay a couple days ago. I still need Bobby Allison and Charlie Glotzbach to complete the set, both of which were contained in the lot. Allison is especially tough to find.

The lot started as an auction with a $250 minimum bid, and I saw that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN. The seller initially declined to do so, but I now see that the lot sold as a BIN for $450. :(

I am disappointed by that, and the seller definitely left money on the table with the BIN. The Allison card alone is a $300-500 card, and several of the other cards are $60-100 cards. I know when I bought my two Lorenzen cards from the set, that seller told me that people were messaging him offering him anywhere from $300 to $750 for cards that ultimately sold for $1,500 total at auction.

Somebody got themselves a great deal by convincing the seller to take $450 for the lot. The seller of this lot didn't really seem to know very much about the set. He did not know the set actually contains two Fred Lorenzen cards and is an 11-card set. I would have put in a snipe for a couple hundred more than the lot sold for if the seller had let the auction play out. :(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-The-STP-Cards-NasCar-10-different-cards-9-cards-of-the-set-/263184829340?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[brian1961]

I have been at nine of 11 cards for the 1972 STP for a while now. I was pumped to see a lot of nine different drivers (10 cards total) show up on eBay a couple days ago. I still need Bobby Allison and Charlie Glotzbach to complete the set, both of which were contained in the lot. Allison is especially tough to find.

The lot started as an auction with a $250 minimum bid, and I saw that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN. The seller initially declined to do so, but I now see that the lot sold as a BIN for $450. :(

I am disappointed by that, and the seller definitely left money on the table with the BIN. The Allison card alone is a $300-500 card, and several of the other cards are $60-100 cards. I know when I bought my two Lorenzen cards from the set, that seller told me that people were messaging him offering him anywhere from $300 to $750 for cards that ultimately sold for $1,500 total at auction.

Somebody got themselves a great deal by convincing the seller to take $450 for the lot. The seller of this lot didn't really seem to know very much about the set. He did not know the set actually contains two Fred Lorenzen cards and is an 11-card set. I would have put in a snipe for a couple hundred more than the lot sold for if the seller had let the auction play out. :(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-The-STP-Cards-NasCar-10-different-cards-9-cards-of-the-set-/263184829340?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ueHdqUjpj66mol%252BG2XBfuMGaeJM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

That is really irritating, Eddie. I am so sorry for you, as you make it plain to us that these cards do not show up that often. The dealer did not know what he had, and the money the character waved was probably a lot more than he thought he'd get for them. Now, he's out a couple hundred bucks and his eBay integrity is very harmed. Your story underscores how desirable the STP cards are to the right people. Again, I'm sorry, bro; the auction should not have gone down the way it did.

Out of curiosity, how could you have known "that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN"?

Hang in there, friend. Maybe the sale will flush out some fresh STP cards. Keep close watch; then, you'll have a collector's edge!

---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

That is really irritating, Eddie. I am so sorry for you, as you make it plain to us that these cards do not show up that often. The dealer did not know what he had, and the money the character waved was probably a lot more than he thought he'd get for them. Now, he's out a couple hundred bucks and his eBay integrity is very harmed. Your story underscores how desirable the STP cards are to the right people. Again, I'm sorry, bro; the auction should not have gone down the way it did.

Out of curiosity, how could you have known "that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN"?

Hang in there, friend. Maybe the sale will flush out some fresh STP cards. Keep close watch; then, you'll have a collector's edge!

---Brian Powell

At the bottom of the listing, where people ask any questions they may have for the seller, there were two separate questions in which people asked the seller to change the auction to a BIN. The seller replied both times that he was not interested in doing that.

When I bought my Lorenzen cards, the seller told me that when multiple people were giving him offers that were all over the map and trying so hard to get him to end the auction early, he knew that the people messaging him were trying to get the cards for far less than they were worth.

I also received a PM from another board member on here stating they were surprised at the $450 BIN price and that he would have also bid more than that if the listing had continued as an auction. Maybe my snipe would have lost anyway, but it is disappointing that the listing ended early.

[brian1961]

Now I understand, Eddie. Thanks. Occasionally, I have glanced down an entire listing, but with the cheaper stuff I buy these days, it's usually a simple BIN.

Again, another sordid chapter among eBay vendors / conniving buyers. I hope you get another chance soon, and with even better specimens of what you're hunting for.

---Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

I didn't want to out the auction while it was still in progress, but an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer card sold on eBay for $255 last night. Like I wrote earlier in the thread, i had never seen a Foyt Marhoefer card up for auction other than in a compete set in about six years of looking prior to one being included in a small lot at Sterling Auctions earlier this year.

I did not bid on the one on eBay, since the card also has the same hot dog stains as mine from Sterling. But Foyt Marhoefer cards are very tough, even when they are stained with hot dog juice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Marhoefer-A-J-Foyt-Racing-Card-Indy-500-Novi-Mobil-Special-Lot-of-2/152686068035?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

[Bored5000]

I believe I have written this on here before, but I have been a huge dirt-track racing fan all my life. That is my first racing love. My parents began taking me to dirt-track races when I was only a couple months old. As a result, I see lots of dirt-track Sprint Car, Late Model and Modified races each season.

I have shared the information with a couple other posters on here in the form of PMs, but Sprint Car driver Harli White is just an amazing story and worth checking out for anyone with even a passing interest in racing.

White is now 21 years old and races 360 cubic inch Sprint Cars on the American Sprint Car Series (ASCS) national tour. In her first race, as a 12-year-old in 2008, she flipped her Micro Sprint and was burned over 50 percent of her body. The only reason she didn't die in the inferno that engulfed her car was that fellow racer Donnie Ray Crawford saw that track officials had emptied their hand-held fire extinguishers as the fire still raged. Crawford got out of his car and pulled White out of her burning car.

Crawford was then subsequently murdered a little over three years later when his mentally unstable grandfather shot him in the family home.

White's story is just incredible. When none of the hospitals local to the Oklahoma City area could adequately treat the severe burns she suffered, the Shriners Children's Hospital of Galveston (Texas) agreed to treat her. She went through six months of skin grafts and therapy to treat her burns. Even several years after the accident, she has had to undergo subsequent surgeries since skin grafts do not naturally stretch as a person grows the way a person's normal skin does.

There have been lots of drivers who have suffered devastating injuries in a racecar over the years, be it burns or paralysis or loss of limbs, but those drivers were almost universally grown men who knew the risks for which they were signing up. not a 12-year-old girl.

White's story is terrible in all kinds of ways: Her Micro Sprint did not have a fuel bladder to contain the fuel when the car's fuel cell ruptured. Over fifty years ago, NASCAR superstar Fireball Roberts died for the same reason. Such an inferno should not have happened in the year 2008. White was also wearing a normal, cotton T-shirt under her racing uniform instead of fire-retardant Nomex clothing. The safety standards at the Micro track she was racing at were substandard. Track officially were not wearing fire-retardant uniforms, so they were powerless to go into the fire and pull her to safety when their hand-held fire extinguishers were empty. Just the basics of a 12-year-old racing a Micro Sprint makes me cringe.

But how does she come back from such awful injuries in her first race to race again, especially on a national Sprint Car tour.

[Bored5000]

Anyway, my previous post gave a quick background of White's story. I urge people to check out the profile ESPN did of her last year. It is hard to watch without tearing up a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvGlvkH2d-8

Here is White's racing Twitter account: The description she uses on her racing Twitter account is "Saved by the Grace of God, Donnie Ray Crawford and Shriners Hospital Galveston, Texas." She still does lots of speaking engagements on behalf of the Shriners and burn units.

https://twitter.com/harliwhiteracin?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5E serp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Here is her other Twitter account, which she also uses to talk about racing:

https://twitter.com/Harli17w

Check out the pictures of what White's back and legs still look like after being burned so badly as a 12-year-old. Warning: the pictures are shocking.

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Harli-White/G0000siblsy69LG4/I0000auAfkC27Tj4/C0000YxoH3YO5sBU/

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Harli-White/G0000siblsy69LG4/I0000Jm2te__.OSQ/C0000YxoH3YO5sBU/

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Harli-White/G0000siblsy69LG4/I0000aFOFLsF9dr0/C0000YxoH3YO5sBU/

Here is the Facebook page for her racing team. She has more pictures on her page, and is taking a rare weekend off from racing this weekend to tell her story at a pair of church services.

https://www.facebook.com/harliwhiteracing/

[Justus]

There is also another one on eBay right now...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152679867851

I didn't want to out the auction while it was still in progress, but an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer card sold on eBay for $255 last night. Like I wrote earlier in the thread, i had never seen a Foyt Marhoefer card up for auction other than in a compete set in about six years of looking prior to one being included in a small lot at Sterling Auctions earlier this year.

I did not bid on the one on eBay, since the card also has the same hot dog stains as mine from Sterling. But Foyt Marhoefer cards are very tough, even when they are stained with hot dog juice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Marhoefer-A-J-Foyt-Racing-Card-Indy-500-Novi-Mobil-Special-Lot-of-2/152686068035?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

[Bored5000]

There is also another one on eBay right now...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152679867851

That one has been on eBay for a long time. The price is a bit...optimistic on that one. LOL :)

[Bored5000]

And the nine-driver STP set that was bought as a BIN when the auction ended early has now reappeared on eBay for $799. (sighs)

That is close to market value of the cards, and the cards would have sold at something close to that at auction. But it is a bummer to see someone convince a seller to end an auction early, only to quickly relist the lot online at nearly double the price. I know things like that happen all the time on eBay (and even on here). But card flippers are usually not as blatant about it with racing cards because it is a thin market without many high-dollar cards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-1972-STP-Racing-Cards-Near-Complete-Set-Richard-Petty-Bobby-Allison-Rookie-/182756097288?hash=item2a8d1cbd08:g:5uwAAOSwI4BZtEy X

[carbking]

Just found this thread (normally only read the non-sports side), but since I was mentioned a couple of times, thought I would offer some information.

Marhoefer has been mentioned many times in this thread. Here is my known checklist:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Marhoefer_checklist.htm

Here is another link to my website listing a few automobile and racing sets:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Automobilecards.htm

This list NEEDS a significant amount of updating, but as one grows older, one realizes that time is one's most valuable asset!

Jon.

[Bored5000]

Just found this thread (normally only read the non-sports side), but since I was mentioned a couple of times, thought I would offer some information.

Marhoefer has been mentioned many times in this thread. Here is my known checklist:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Marhoefer_checklist.htm

Here is another link to my website listing a few automobile and racing sets:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Automobilecards.htm

This list NEEDS a significant amount of updating, but as one grows older, one realizes that time is one's most valuable asset!

Jon.

Great to have you join the thread, Jon. So much of what I know about various racing sets is because of your posts over on the non-sports board and your website. :)

[carbking]

Glad you were able to use my efforts.

Unfortunately, automobile/motorcycle racing is the red-headed step-child of the card collecting hobby. :(

The sports collectors shun us, as evidenced by the sections available on this forum (even cricket, but no racing) ;)

And it doesn't really fit into non-sports, but the non-sports folks seem to tolerate us as it semi-fits due to automobile or motorcycle cards which are non-sports.

The amount of activity on this thread definitely shows an interest in the topic. :):D

Maybe, in a perverse sense, it is a good thing for we collectors that there is no more interest. Can you imagine the cost of some of the cards if suddenly the baseball folks all started collecting racing??? Some of the auto racing cards are just plain RARE Some make the T-206 Wagner seem like a "common"! Have collected these things for 53 years. Have virtually all the USA printed prior to 1996 (seemed like a good time to just specialize on certain sets/drivers, and stay away from the artificially low production "collector" items). But still missing one of the Say No to Drugs set.

I also collect stamps, and a deceased friend who was a major stamp dealer had the best (opinion) quote about the scarcity of some of this stuff. His comment: "Jon, not only do you have to wait for someone to die to acquire some of these stamps; you need to waiting in the driveway with cash to negotiate with the heirs!".

Jon.

[Bored5000]

Glad you were able to use my efforts.

Unfortunately, automobile/motorcycle racing is the red-headed step-child of the card collecting hobby. :(

The sports collectors shun us, as evidenced by the sections available on this forum (even cricket, but no racing) ;)

And it doesn't really fit into non-sports, but the non-sports folks seem to tolerate us as it semi-fits due to automobile or motorcycle cards which are non-sports.

The amount of activity on this thread definitely shows an interest in the topic. :):D

Maybe, in a perverse sense, it is a good thing for we collectors that there is no more interest. Can you imagine the cost of some of the cards if suddenly the baseball folks all started collecting racing??? Some of the auto racing cards are just plain RARE Some make the T-206 Wagner seem like a "common"! Have collected these things for 53 years. Have virtually all the USA printed prior to 1996 (seemed like a good time to just specialize on certain sets/drivers, and stay away from the artificially low production "collector" items). But still missing one of the Say No to Drugs set.

I also collect stamps, and a deceased friend who was a major stamp dealer had the best (opinion) quote about the scarcity of some of this stuff. His comment: "Jon, not only do you have to wait for someone to die to acquire some of these stamps; you need to waiting in the driveway with cash to negotiate with the heirs!".

Jon.

Good post Jon. I have written often on here that one of the reasons I like collecting racing that there are only a few cards that individually sell for over $500; there aren't any $10,000+ cards. I love the obscure and the impossible to find, even if a card is only worth $100-200.

On the whole, I love non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. There is nothing at all wrong with collecting T206 or '33 Goudey, but how many times can a person see the same Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth card listed for sale or at auction?

I know baseball will always be king when it comes to cards, but I could never compete price-wise when it comes to acquiring extreme rarities. With racing cards, I can.

I actually see parallels between racing cards and wrestling cards. This board has some of that niche's top collectors posting on here, and even some extreme rarities of huge stars can be had at prices within reach of collectors. That genre of the hobby really seems to have taken off in recent years, as people are starting to appreciate what is rare and what isn't. Same thing for racing. Unless you actually follow the '72 STP set, who would know that the Lorenzen with car card is a virtual impossibility to find.

[Bored5000]

I don't remember if I posted this publicly or just in a PM with a couple board members. But when I won the auction for my Lorenzen with car card, I met the seller in person, since he only lived 30 miles from me. He also offered me a Lorenzen portrait card. I had lost the auction for the portrait card he was selling, but he said he had another one.

When I met the seller, he told me that he had won an automobile lot at an estate auction that included one Lorenzen with car card and 12 of the Lorenzen portrait cards. I agreed to pay $450 for the portrait card, and my heart kind of sank when he told me how many of them he had found. The seller did not have any idea what the cards were and initially thought they were worthless garbage after being unable to find any information online.

The Lorenzen portrait card used to be very tough to find as well, but with the addition of 12 new copies into the hobby all at once, anyone willing to pay the buy it now price for that card on eBay can have one. I know the same thing happens a couple times a year with 100-year old baseball cards, but it is always amazing when such a "find" of rare cards occurs.

[carbking]

I have posted in other areas, but still in wonder as to why there is no Paula Murphy card in the STP set.

Rather than post all of the "evidence" why there should be, I will allow those who might have an interest to discover this on their own.

Jon.

[Beansballcardblog]

Jon,

I echo Eddie's sentiment and am also thrilled to have you as part of the thread. I have seen your posts on the non-sports forum and have read many of them repeatedly. I've also visited your site a couple of times.

I'm (very slowly) working on the T36 and know that you have completed it. I'm excited to learn anything from you about the set that I can, over time.

For those interested, I have picked up another T36 since my last post. For anyone interested, click here (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/09/one-is-better-than-none.html)!

Have a great weekend, everyone!
-kin

[carbking]

Kin - thank you.

If you REALLY want a challenge, try doing a "master" T36 set (4 backs for each front, total 100 cards). It took me over 40 years! Each front has backs advertising either Mecca or Hassan and printed with either factory 30 or 649.

If you are doing the 25 card set (back information unimportant) of the T36, and wish to speed up the process, all fronts are readily available in most lower grades.

Jon.

[Bored5000]

Kin - thank you.

If you REALLY want a challenge, try doing a "master" T36 set (4 backs for each front, total 100 cards). It took me over 40 years! Each front has backs advertising either Mecca or Hassan and printed with either factory 30 or 649.

If you are doing the 25 card set (back information unimportant) of the T36, and wish to speed up the process, all fronts are readily available in most lower grades.

Jon.

I thought $390 for the complete set of T36s that recently sold at Huggins and Scott was a great price for a buyer; less than $16 a card for a complete set. I don't expect everyone to be an expert on 1910s Indy racing, but the listing seemed to miss the boat a bit by not even showing the Barney Oldfield card or mentioning its condition when discussing the key cards of the set.

I know I have mentioned this to Kin previously in a PM, but Oldfield just looks so cool chomping on his cigar in his T36 card.

I would have liked to have gone after that T36 set at Huggins and Scott, but I can't buy every card/set I want.

[Bored5000]

Jon,

I echo Eddie's sentiment and am also thrilled to have you as part of the thread. I have seen your posts on the non-sports forum and have read many of them repeatedly. I've also visited your site a couple of times.

I'm (very slowly) working on the T36 and know that you have completed it. I'm excited to learn anything from you about the set that I can, over time.

For those interested, I have picked up another T36 since my last post. For anyone interested, click here (http://ifeellikeacollectoragain.blogspot.com/2017/09/one-is-better-than-none.html)!

Have a great weekend, everyone!

-kin

Kin, I didn't realize you were up to 21/25 drivers from the T36 set. Nice progress. :)

[pawpawdiv9]

Thanks, Brian. I have about 25-30 cards on my want list and within my budget. The two racing cards currently at the top of my want list are a 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphic Dale Earnhardt and a T36 Barney Oldfield. You wouldn't think a card from 1986 would be that tough, but the Earnhardt card from that set is short-printed; they just don't come available very often. Aside from a cheesy card in the 1983 Uno set and some early postcards, the Sports-Star Photo-Graphics card is the Earnhardt card to have, IMO.

I use to be a Huge Earnhardt Sr. fan. Collected all sorts of things.
I still watch the races on the tube.
I had to look up the 1986 card you were referring to.
Speaking of the RARE 1986 card, found a almost complete set on Ebay-- with the Earnhardt:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-NasCar-Sportstar-Photo-Graphics-Card-Set-12-of-the-Set-/263215155186
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/67MAAOSwLQpZrD0H/s-l1600.jpg

[carbking]

I thought $390 for the complete set of T36s that recently sold at Huggins and Scott was a great price for a buyer; less than $16 a card for a complete set.

Wish I had seen it!

Eddie - do you have the 1982 Kidco Earnhardt? I believe his first card.

Jon.

[Bored5000]

I use to be a Huge Earnhardt Sr. fan. Collected all sorts of things.
I still watch the races on the tube.
I had to look up the 1986 card you were referring to.
Speaking of the RARE 1986 card, found a almost complete set on Ebay-- with the Earnhardt:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-NasCar-Sportstar-Photo-Graphics-Card-Set-12-of-the-Set-/263215155186
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/67MAAOSwLQpZrD0H/s-l1600.jpg

I have that listing on my watch list; it is priced high. I lost out at auction for an Earnhardt card from that set at around $350 about a year ago. The other cards in the set do not sell for a whole lot. The really weird thing is that the seller of the lot you are talking about originally priced the lot at $595 and found no bidders -- so the seller raised the price to $675 and did not find any bidders. After finding no bidders at $595 and $675, the seller then again raised the starting price to $725. Gee, I wonder what will happen now that the price has again been raised. :rolleyes:

The seller of that lot is the same one that ended the lot early for the 1972 STP cards and left money on the table by not allowing the auction to play out to conclusion.

[Bored5000]

Wish I had seen it!

Eddie - do you have the 1982 Kidco Earnhardt? I believe his first card.

Jon.

Here is the link from the auction, Jon:

http://aug17.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=19455

I wasn't familiar with the Kidco card until you mentioned it; I had to go look it up. The '83 UNO card is almost always listed as Earnhardt's "rookie" card (other than some late '70s/early '80s postcards). I think the reason the Kidco card doesn't get recognition as an Earnhardt card is because the card features a pack of cars and is titled "Drafting to win" rather than identifying Earnhardt by name.

[carbking]

Eddie - thanks for the link. Like I posted above, wish I had seen it BEFORE it ended. Those are some nice cards!

Jon.

[Beansballcardblog]

Kin - thank you.

If you REALLY want a challenge, try doing a "master" T36 set (4 backs for each front, total 100 cards). It took me over 40 years! Each front has backs advertising either Mecca or Hassan and printed with either factory 30 or 649.

If you are doing the 25 card set (back information unimportant) of the T36, and wish to speed up the process, all fronts are readily available in most lower grades.

Jon.

Jon - That is certainly the goal. Not sure I have 40 years left in me, but I'm certainly going to give it a whirl!

[Bored5000]

Every once in a while, someone will post a piece of bodywork on eBay that is purported to be from Gordon Smiley's horrific fatal crash at Indy in 1982. The auctions usually get shut down pretty quickly.

But an item up for auction at Lelands right now seems in pretty bad taste for an auction house. Who would actually bid on half the steering wheel used by Art Pollard in his fatal 1973 crash at Indy?

https://lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=83983

[Beansballcardblog]

I'm all about preserving history, but there are some things that I just can't see myself doing.

On another note, I feel like prices are creeping up on the T36 cards. A three-card lot ended last night on eBay and I ended up the underbidder. I really thought my bid was strong enough based on what I've gotten other cards for. Maybe it was the condition on these or something. They were all drivers that I've seen often enough that I wouldn't call them "scarce" by any means.

-kin

Every once in a while, someone will post a piece of bodywork on eBay that is purported to be from Gordon Smiley's horrific fatal crash at Indy in 1982. The auctions usually get shut down pretty quickly.

But an item up for auction at Lelands right now seems in pretty bad taste for an auction house. Who would actually bid on half the steering wheel used by Art Pollard in his fatal 1973 crash at Indy?

https://lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=83983

[Bored5000]

I'm all about preserving history, but there are some things that I just can't see myself doing.

On another note, I feel like prices are creeping up on the T36 cards. A three-card lot ended last night on eBay and I ended up the underbidder. I really thought my bid was strong enough based on what I've gotten other cards for. Maybe it was the condition on these or something. They were all drivers that I've seen often enough that I wouldn't call them "scarce" by any means.

-kin

I saw that lot and wondered if you won it.

[smokelessjoe]

Hi All,

My Mom picked these up at an estate sale, they were actually packed away in a pocket of a small suitcase that she had purchased. She had know idea the tickets were in there - she said there was also a flattened starfish "super flat" that was in another pocket. :)

I have looked all over and can not find any sold or for sale examples... I can find some online - one is graded on PSA database... But that's it... Can anyone help her with value?

I am disappointed in my photos that I took (we were in a dark restaurant) as I think they look better than this - brighter blue and a gloss to them. They look like they have been stored for a long time as far as colors not fading...

[Bored5000]

Awesome ticket stubs, Shawn. I don't think they are worth a ton of money, though. I will say maybe $50-100 each. There was a '59 Daytona 500 ticket on eBay earlier this year that failed to attract any bids at a $195 starting price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-1959-Daytona-500-Race-Ticket-First-Daytona-500-Race-/292163510425?nma=true&si=ivGpTUof0knnZ%252BMfATaBSArYOGo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Huggins and Scott auctioned off a PSA 6 from the first Southern 500 at Darlington (1950) a few years ago and that ticket stub brought $220. That was the only 1950 Southern 500 stub that has been authenticated by PSA.

But I have also seen raw stubs from the first Southern 500 fail to sell on eBay priced at under $100.

http://dec13.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=63042

[smokelessjoe]

Hi Eddie,

I wanted to say thank you for the information - big help! She will be thrilled :)

[KMayUSA6060]

I need to go through the ticket stubs my dad passed down to me. There were some Indy 500 I believe from the 70s/80s.

[Bored5000]

Hi Eddie,

I wanted to say thank you for the information - big help! She will be thrilled :)

No problem. :) Like I said, that is a best guess. Even Indy 500 ticket stubs don't sell for much money, except for the very early ones from the 1910s and 1920s.

[Beansballcardblog]

Jon & Eddie,

If someone is going to be able to help me out with these, it is probably you gentlemen. I'm looking for any information you can give me on this card (it is front and back).

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4639/27445116059_93e09709ef_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HPeoQc)img076 (https://flic.kr/p/HPeoQc) by kekinsley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24579302@N08/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4688/27445083679_55bf4144d5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HPeecV)img075 (https://flic.kr/p/HPeecV) by kekinsley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24579302@N08/), on Flickr

I believe that at one time, I read that these 3x4 cards were associated with a board game. They obviously are Parkhurst and a brother to the Hawes Wax cards. I also feel like I read that there were six cards in total. This is all from memory though.

Is there any additional information you can give me and/or any reference to them online? I'd like to get them into my collection on Trading Card Database, but need some more information. In addition to the card pictured I have Bill Holland/Floyd Roberts, Mauri Rose/Tommy Milton, Rodger Ward/Floyd Davis & Mauri Rose, Pat Flaherty/Lee Wallard and Betterhausen In Pits/Bob Sweikert.

Any information is truly appreciated. I hope that everyone has an enjoyable and safe Christmas!

-kin

[Bored5000]

Kin, I am only somewhat familiar with the cards you posted. I know that 12 of the images from the 1960 Hawes Wax Indy cards were produced on six oversized cards. Here is a Beckett link that references the Canadian game that included the six cards, but I can't be much more helpful beyond that:

https://www.beckett.com/racing/1960/hawes-wax-indy

There isn't much additional information to be found online. A couple of Worthpoint completed auctions make passing reference to the game, but shed no details on a name or anything like that.

[Bored5000]

Like a lot of other people, I lost my scans when Photobucket went to a pay format. I finally broke down and rescanned some of the collection into an imageevent gallery. I put together a gallery of my graded 1972 STP cards and wrote a description of each card/the set as a whole.

I am not a huge PSA registry guy. My complete set does not grade as high as fellow net54 member "Justus." But as rare as some of the cards are, I am glad to have an example of every card.

https://imageevent.com/eddiesmithcards/1972stpcards

[Beansballcardblog]

Thanks for sharing, Eddie! I’d love to have a copy of the Allison STP (will never happen). You mention it being the second most valuable racing card, what’s your estimate of going rate, should one surface?

I believe I’ve mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I am jealous that you have that Foyt Marhoefer. That’s one that someday I plan to have. I think Lloyd Ruby also has a Marhoefer card. Someday I hope to come into one.

[Bored5000]

Thanks for sharing, Eddie! I’d love to have a copy of the Allison STP (will never happen). You mention it being the second most valuable racing card, what’s your estimate of going rate, should one surface?

I believe I’ve mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I am jealous that you have that Foyt Marhoefer. That’s one that someday I plan to have. I think Lloyd Ruby also has a Marhoefer card. Someday I hope to come into one.

Kin, I sent you a PM.

Are you making any more progress on your T36 set? Do you already have a Barney Oldfield T36 card? I have been looking for an Oldfield T36 for a couple years now, and he never seems to show up on eBay. Edit: I just looked at your gallery. You are looking for an Oldfield also. LOL

I actually decided to create a gallery for my STP cards because I was talking about the set on a message board with other racing fans, and a couple posters were intrigued by the cards because they were stick and ball card collectors, but were not familiar with the STP racing set.

[Beansballcardblog]

I believe earlier in the thread we mentioned the 1960 Parkhurst Indianapolis Speedway Winners/Hawes Wax Indy set. I saw this blog post a few days ago with scanned images of the June 20, 1960 copy of "The Card Collector." It mentions, very briefly, the Parkhurst set. There's nothing much to take away from it that we didn't know, other than learning that the set was released in the earlier part of the year, and in the months leading up to the race.

Doubling Up (http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/2018/03/doubling-up.html)

-kin

[Beansballcardblog]

Eddie,

You already saw, but Oldfield is one of the three left that I need. Truth be told, when it comes available, we should talk. No need getting into a needless bidding war. I know it’ll be awhile, but another will eventually come available! Kin, I sent you a PM.

Are you making any more progress on your T36 set? Do you already have a Barney Oldfield T36 card? I have been looking for an Oldfield T36 for a couple years now, and he never seems to show up on eBay. Edit: I just looked at your gallery. You are looking for an Oldfield also. LOL

I actually decided to create a gallery for my STP cards because I was talking about the set on a message board with other racing fans, and a couple posters were intrigued by the cards because they were stick and ball card collectors, but were not familiar with the STP racing set.

[Bored5000]

Eddie,

You already saw, but Oldfield is one of the three left that I need. Truth be told, when it comes available, we should talk. No need getting into a needless bidding war. I know it’ll be awhile, but another will eventually come available!

Oh, I won't get into a bidding war over it. I know you are working on the set. :) I kinda wish I would have went harder at the T36 set that sold at Huggins and Scott earlier this year., but there are a bunch of things on my want list.

[Bored5000]

Racing lost one of the best dirt-track drivers in the country Saturday night when Sprint Car driver Jason Johnson was killed in a horrific crash at Beaver Dam, Wisconsin.

Johnson, 41, was a five-time American Sprint Car Series (ASCS) 360 champion. He also won 12 career World of Outlaws features including two this season. But Johnson is most known for his thrilling win in the 2016 Knoxville (Iowa) Nationals. The Knoxville Nationals pays $150,000 to win, and there is no bigger dirt track race anywhere than the Knoxville Nationals.

Reactions from around the racing world:

https://nesn.com/2018/06/racing-world-mourns-tragic-death-of-sprint-car-driver-jason-johnson/

Johnson was just the second World of Outlaws driver killed in the past 20 years. This is almost too hard to believe (and just absolutely awful), but Johnson's wife, Bobbi, was the fiancee of racer Kevin Gobrecht when Gobrecht was killed in a World of Outlaws race at Greenwood (Neb.) in 1999.

Here is a very sad, hard to read, article that talks about Johnson's widow dealing with the death of Gobrecht back in 1999. The couple has planned to marry in November of that year, but Gobrecht was killed on September 24.

https://www.kevingobrecht.com/tributes_StaceyJackson.html

Everyone who has grown up around racing knows that racing people are the best, The official GoFundMe page that the World of Outlaws set up for Johnson's wife and five-year-old son has received over $37,000 in donations in just 24 hours.

https://www.gofundme.com/JasonJohnsonForever41

Here it is: This is the biggest win of Jason Johnson's career -- the 2016 Knoxville Nationals. Even if you have never seen a Sprint Car race, check out the five-minute highlight video of the race. The closing laps featured Johnson and 10-time Knoxville Nationals winner Donny Schatz exchanging slide jobs while trading the lead back and forth. This video is definitely worth watching, one of the best dirt-track races a fan could ever see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-nseJnSul0

[Bored5000]

A couple more great articles about Jason Johnson beyond his accomplishments on the track:

https://sprintcarunlimited.com/jason-johnson-was-more-than-a-sprint-car-driver-he-was-a-good-family-man-friend-and-person/

Here is an Australia-based website that talks about Johnson's rise through the ranks. Journeyman World Of Outlaw Sprint Car driver Steve Beitler gave the 17-year-old Johnson a chance to help out on his crew, even though Johnson had never wrenched on a Sprint Car before. Beitler related the story on Facebook yesterday about Johnson going from not even knowing how to mount and dismount tires to winning the biggest dirt track race in the world with a self-owned team over the course of 20 years.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2018/06/25/sprintcar-champion-jason-johnson-dies/

[Bored5000]

I just wanted to give a heads up on here to an outstanding racing book that I finished reading a few days ago: "J.D. The Life and Death of a Forgotten NASCAR Legend" by Brock Beard.

https://www.amazon.com/J-D-Forgotten-NASCAR-Legend/dp/1643707957/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

I am not affiliated with the book or anything like that; it's just a fabulous read. Initially, I thought how interesting can a book be about a guy who ran 653 Cup races and never won (J.D. McDuffie) ? But after a reading a few of the Amazon reviews, I decided to buy the book. There is a reason the Amazon reviews are what they are for the book; it is outstanding. The book really makes me think differently about McDuffie and all the independent Cup racers of that era. About half the book is about McDuffie's overall racing career and his struggles as racing in the Cup series became increasingly expensive in the 1980s, while the other half of the book is about the fateful weekend at Watkins Glen (N.Y.) during which McDuffie lost his life. The book also touches on the hardship of his family following his death and what so many of the people involved with his team did in the decades since.

When I look at what the Cup series is now, McDuffie's story seems like it happened a million years ago,.

Among the things that really stood out to me:

* McDuffie had difficulty reading and writing (something I also learned about Rich Vogler after reading John Sawyer's book about him many years ago), and he rarely if ever allowed anyone else to drive his "Old Blue" ramp truck to and from the races.

* He typically allotted himself one stogie for each 100 miles of a race. A good day was when he smoked all five cigars during a 500 miler because it meant that he finished the race.

* The book also contains a great chapter of close McDuffie friend and fellow independent Jimmy Means. Means was involved in the Watkins Glen accident that killed McDuffie. After giving a shellshocked interview with Ned Jarrett following the crash, Means was so distraught that he immediately left Watkins Glen that day.

* I had known about McDuffie winning a match race in a Late Model at Shangri-La (New York) Speedway among various crew guys the night before the Watkins Glen race, but the night at Shangri-La is really fleshed out in the book. McDuffie drove the car of track points leader Tom Schwarz that night. For the first time in decades, McDuffie felt what it was like to have the best car in the field; he started last in the eight-car field that night and took the lead on the second lap. In Victory Lane, promoter Dale Campfield gave McDuffie a handshake with a $100 bill in it.

The next morning at a local diner for breakfast, McDuffie, still beaming from the night before, grabbed the breakfast check, pulled out the $100 bill and said simply "Winners buy." The ragtag crew that helped McDuffie typically paid for their own meals because they knew how tight money was for the driver.

At the Watkins Glen drivers meeting on the fateful Sunday morning, McDuffie's win at Shangri-La the previous evening was brought up. Ernie Irvan, who would win the tragedy-marred Cup race, joked with McDuffie, "You've been holding out on us all these years, J.D."

* One of the further tragedies of the McDuffie accident was that a North Carolina scammer by the name Jeff Tobias Bennett posed as McDuffie's brother and was given the driver's uniform and other effects he was wearing that day. Bennett then sold McDuffie's uniform to a hobby shop for $150. The bubble goggles McDuffie was wearing that day and the tire that broke off his car to cause the accident have never been seen since.

* McDuffie's family received the $30,000 driver death benefit from NASCAR's insurance policy, but the family had to repeatedly fight for the $15,000 car owner benefit.

* His family remains deeply troubled by NASCAR's insinuation that McDuffie died because he was driving junk. He obviously raced used parts, but he did not use stuff that was worn out because he knew it was his life at stake.Since the tire and attached suspension parts disappeared shortly after the accident, it was impossible to ascertain exactly what broke on McDuffie's car -- not that NASCAR was much into thorough investigations prior to Dale Earnhardt's death.

* McDuffie's "Old Blue" ramp truck hauler was purchased at auction in 2013 by Ken Schrader. The truck is now owned by a Late Model team in Michigan and serves as a functional shrine to McDuffie. The truck still contains the issue of "NASCAR Illustrated" that was current at the time of the Watkins Glen race, several smoked cigar butts in the ashtray and the "Winner's Buy" diner receipt that McDuffie stuck above the driver's side sun visor after purchasing breakfast for his crew.

Again, the book is far greater than I expected a book about J.D. McDuffie to be, It is unfortunate that there aren't guys like that at the highest levels of racing anymore.

[Bored5000]

Sorry, double post.

[Bored5000]

I had previously known about the McDuffie death car being sold for profit after the accident. The book does not really go into the sordid details of the car being sold without the permission of McDuffie's family, but the book lays out how that came about. A man by the name of Marty Burke had been helping McDuffie and was in the process of buying the car from McDuffie in hopes of starting his own career in ARCA. Burke made the final of five payment installments shortly before the race at Watkins Glen. Burke did not have a bill of sale saying he owned the car, but did produce five canceled checks signed by McDuffie.

The death car was turned over to Burke mere hours after the fatal accident and was subsequently offered for sale in a ghoulish 1995 ad mentioning the car was "not cheap, serious buyers only."

Here is a famous 2001 Ed Hinton article in which he talks about McDuffie's death car being sold to a random ghoul. The car has never been seen again.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2001-07-06/news/0107060270_1_earnhardt-nascar-elisa/4

Here is a 2013 article that talks about McDuffie's widow finally selling off his husband's race shop and her husband's belongings that were inside, many of which had not been touched since his death in 1991. The "Old Blue" ramp truck that was purchased in the article by a John Parsons was actually a straw buyer for former Cup driver Ken Schrader.

Even 22 years after her husband's death, Ima Jean McDuffie cried about the car her husband was killed in being sold by a a crew member who J.D. trusted.

https://erinarmbruster41.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/auto-shop-finally-sold/

"That’s what hurts hurts so bad. J.D. trusted those people, and that car don’t belong to whoever’s got it,” Jean McDuffie said as tears ran down her face.

[Bored5000]

Sorry, double post.

[smokelessjoe]

Hoping to get some thoughts on this cooler I have had for several years. I hate that it has the black paint on it, but you can actually see the "speed 180 something" when you are in front of it. I did not realize that it was not visible in the photo. Pick it up at an estate sale years ago in a barn out back.

1. Did this belong to the Lloyd Racing team?
2. Any kind of value?

Thanks in advance for any opinions,

Shawn

[smokelessjoe]

Double

[Justus]

I can't answer your questions but VERY NEAT item!

[LuckyLarry]

Looking forward to Sunday with the Indy 500 and Coca-Cola 600 always a great day of racing on TV!

My mother was such a fan of the Indy 500. When I was a kid (I'm 65) I remember the race was on Monday (Memorial Day) and was only broadcast on the radio. So we would listen to the race live on the radio, then on Saturday the race was on Wide World of Sports on TV. At least that's my memory lol!

So I'll have my TV tuned to the races, and for good measure I'll have the radio feed streaming out by the pool. It's going to be sunny and hot here in NE Florida so Sunday should be a great day!

Larry

[Justus]

Anyone know anything about these cards? I have 11 different drivers; not sure if there are others or not. They measure 4" x 5.5" and are heavy, thick paper but not ball card stock.

https://i.postimg.cc/jjDR20RS/1589812377260-98a85384-fe41-405d-98bf-e2a94780b395.jpg

[Beansballcardblog]

Very cool to hear about how that all used to work. I was watching an early 1970s Indianapolis 500 on YouTube and the in-race commercial said they'd be showing the Monaco GP the next weekend. Now they are on the same day. Little nuggets I love hearing about.

-kin


Looking forward to Sunday with the Indy 500 and Coca-Cola 600 always a great day of racing on TV!

My mother was such a fan of the Indy 500. When I was a kid (I'm 65) I remember the race was on Monday (Memorial Day) and was only broadcast on the radio. So we would listen to the race live on the radio, then on Saturday the race was on Wide World of Sports on TV. At least that's my memory lol!

So I'll have my TV tuned to the races, and for good measure I'll have the radio feed streaming out by the pool. It's going to be sunny and hot here in NE Florida so Sunday should be a great day!

Larry

[Beansballcardblog]

Extremely cool and wondering if you found anything else out about it. Lloyd Ruby is one of my two favorite drivers that I never actually got to see race.

-kin

Hoping to get some thoughts on this cooler I have had for several years. I hate that it has the black paint on it, but you can actually see the "speed 180 something" when you are in front of it. I did not realize that it was not visible in the photo. Pick it up at an estate sale years ago in a barn out back.

1. Did this belong to the Lloyd Racing team?
2. Any kind of value?

Thanks in advance for any opinions,

Shawn

[Beansballcardblog]

Wish I could help with this, but I know nothing. Can't wait to see if someone else does.

-kin

Anyone know anything about these cards? I have 11 different drivers; not sure if there are others or not. They measure 4" x 5.5" and are heavy, thick paper but not ball card stock.

https://i.postimg.cc/jjDR20RS/1589812377260-98a85384-fe41-405d-98bf-e2a94780b395.jpg

[phlflyer1]

Don't know how I missed this thread until now but, since its been brought back to the top, I have to post the following Richard Petty item. My father was a huge Petty fan so I became one as well growing up.

The picture is from a 1971 race won by Petty that my father took our family to back when they raced at Trenton, NJ. My father took the photo at the end of the race when Pettys car was in victory lane. Sometime during the 1980s I found an address for Petty Enterprises and sent it hoping to get it signed.

It wasn't long before it came back with Pettys unmistakable autograph along with a nice note that seeing the photo brought back good memories as he enjoyed racing at that track before it was closed.

[Bored5000]

I am glad to see the thread coming back to life. I don't have any information to add on the Andretti card that Justus posted. The card looks like some kind of handout to hype the Champ Car race at Pocono that year.

I was able to find a site online that showed nine of the cards, but does not list any other information.

http://3-2-1indycar.blogspot.com/2014/07/flashback-friday.html

To me, the most interesting driver depicted on a card is Johnny Hubbard. Hubbard was from Johnstown, Pa., and was primarily a Midget driver. He tried for several years to break into the Champ Car world, but was usually resigned to underfunded rides. Hubbard was killed in a dirt Modified crash at the Reading (Pa.) Fairgrounds less than three months after the race at Pocono. The Reading Fairgrounds was only 10 minutes from my house and I have very vague memories of the Hubbard crash. My father was on the track crew at Reading and talked several times over the years about how horrific the Hubbard crash was. Hubbard's car that he was killed in was owned by a guy named Bob Seidel from Boyertown, Pa. Seidel never returned to Reading after Hubbard was killed in his car.

Kinda weird that Hubbard was included in the cards, since he did not even run any Champ Car races in 1976.

[Bored5000]

Don't know how I missed this thread until now but, since its been brought back to the top, I have to post the following Richard Petty item. My father was a huge Petty fan so I became one as well growing up.

The picture is from a 1971 race won by Petty that my father took our family to back when they raced at Trenton, NJ. My father took the photo at the end of the race when Pettys car was in victory lane. Sometime during the 1980s I found an address for Petty Enterprises and sent it hoping to get it signed.

It wasn't long before it came back with Pettys unmistakable autograph along with a nice note that seeing the photo brought back good memories as he enjoyed racing at that track before it was closed.

Thanks for posting that Richard Petty photo and sharing that story, Scott. Good stuff. :) Wonder how many autographs Petty has signed over the past 60 years?

[Justus]

I am glad to see the thread coming back to life. I don't have any information to add on the Andretti card that Justus posted. The card looks like some kind of handout to hype the Champ Car race at Pocono that year.

I was able to find a site online that showed nine of the cards, but does not list any other information.

http://3-2-1indycar.blogspot.com/2014/07/flashback-friday.html

Thanks Eddie! You are wealth of racing knowledge. Of the 9 cards shown on your link, I only have Andretti, Foyt, and Bobby Unser. I also have Bettenhousen, Johncock, Kinser, McCluskey, Rutherford, Al Unser, Vukovich, and Walther.

I love a good hunt and you've given me at least 6 more. Thanks for the info!

[Bored5000]

Thanks Eddie! You are wealth of racing knowledge. Of the 9 cards shown on your link, I only have Andretti, Foyt, and Bobby Unser. I also have Bettenhousen, Johncock, Kinser, McCluskey, Rutherford, Al Unser, Vukovich, and Walther.

I love a good hunt and you've given me at least 6 more. Thanks for the info!

Wow, when I found that link showing nine cards, I figured those drivers were included in the 11 you have. Wonder how many cards were issued? The Pocono race started 33 cars that year. I had never previously read anything about those cards, nor seen them before.

A couple other points about Johnny Hubbard: Sadly, he was decapitated in the crash that took his life. I read Lew Boyd's excellent book on Dick "Toby" Tobias that came out in 2017. The book makes brief reference to the Hubbard crash. After the crash, Hubbard's car was taken to the Reading infield and left there while the show continued.

Tobias then went and looked at the car to see what had failed structurally. Tobias looked inside the car, then instructed one of his crew guys to get a tarp to cover the car with, saying "No one should have to look at that."

I remember my father saying how sad it was to see Hubbard's personal vehicle sitting alone in the Reading Fairgrounds parking several days after the race.

[Theodderthebetter]

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

[Bored5000]

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

Wow, awesome post. :) I would not have ever guessed there were so many cards. I guess that makes sense, though, since the existence of a Johnny Hubbard car shows the set included some pretty obscure drivers who made limited Champ Car starts.

[Justus]

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

Wow, that is cool! Do you have a list of them you could copy to here? I'd love to have a complete list. Thanks!

[Theodderthebetter]

i"ll see what I can do this weekend. I think they are way undervalued because so few people know they exist.

[Theodderthebetter]

Here are the cards i have: Andretti,G. Bettenhausen,Bigelow,Pancho Carter,Dallenbach,Foyt,Spike Gehlhausen,BobHarkey,Hubbard,Johncock,Sheldon Kinser,Lee Kunzman,Steve Krisiloff,Al lquasto,Larry McCoy,John Martin,Mike Mosley,jim McElreath,Johnny Parsons,Eldon Rasmussen,Johnny Rutherford,Lloyd Ruby,Tom Sneva,George Snider,Salt Walther,Al Unser,Bubby Unser,Bill Vukovich,Jerry Karl,Roger McCluskey,Bill Puterbaugh,Dick Simon,

[Justus]

Thank you! So many to find now, LOL.

[Jobu]

Here's a Type 1 of HOFer Earl Cooper at the 1916 Vanderbilt Cup.

[Bored5000]

I won an auction on Sunday for a set of 31 cards very similar to Justus' "Allentown Week of Wheels" cards pictured a few days ago in this thread. The weird thing about the set I won is that the cards are labeled as being from 1975 and labeled as being a "Wilkes Barre Schaefer 500 salute."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1975-Pocono-Wilkes-Barre-Schaefer-500-Salute-at-Pocono-Racing-Cards-Set/114229157060?hash=item1a98969cc4:g:JUAAAOSw86dexBi q

The images look to be the same as the Allentown cards. From what i could see, new cards not previously known are Sammy Sessions, Mike Hiss, Bentley Warren, Jimmy Carruthers and Mel Kenyon.

The closing auction price really shocked me: $39.43 with just one other bidder besides myself above $13. I thought the cards may close at least somewhere in the neighborhood of the Marhoefer cards when those come up for auction. I wasn't expecting the price to be just over $1 a card.

The appearance of a different set of cards carrying advertising for Wilkes Barre, Pa., makes me wonder if the cards were exclusive to Woolworth's. That chain was huge in the 1970s, and Wikipedia says they did have a store in Wilkes Barre in addition to Allentown, Pa.

[Justus]

Way to go, Eddie! Do you think this set has more than 31 cards? The 1976 set has 32 known (thanks Scott!) cards.

[Bored5000]

Way to go, Eddie! Do you think this set has more than 31 cards? The 1976 set has 32 known (thanks Scott!) cards.

I don't know. I have wondered that myself. Thirty-one cards is a lot to be together in one group if that does not even include all the drivers. I also wonder if some of the drivers were replaced for 1976?

Mel Kenyon being included seems even more amazing to me than Johnny Hubbard being included in both sets. Kenyon ran one Champ Car race in 1974, none in 1975 and one in 1976. It blows my mind that a guy who ran a total of one Champ Car race in 1974-75 has a card in the 1975 set at a minimum.

I am just blown away by how large the sets are. and how obscure some of the drivers included are, compared to the Marhoefer sets from a decade earlier and the STP NASCAR set from just a few years earlier.

[Theodderthebetter]

Nice find Eddie. I don't know if this helps or not but the images are the same as the 1976 cards. Again I think the value is so low because no one knows they exist. I would not be surprised if the images use are from press kits of a press release for the race.

[Bored5000]

Nice find Eddie. I don't know if this helps or not but the images are the same as the 1976 cards. Again I think the value is so low because no one knows they exist. I would not be surprised if the images use are from press kits of a press release for the race.

Thanks for the kind words, Scott.

[Bored5000]

I have received the 1975 "Wilkes Barre Schaefer 500" cards in the mail. In addition to the five drivers I listed earlier in the thread, Bill Simpson is another addition that is not known to be in the 1976 set.

Here is the 31-driver 1975 checklist thus far:

Bill Simpson, A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, Gordon Johncock, Gary Bettenhausen, Johnny Rutherford, Wally Dallenbach, Bill Vukovich, Joe Leonard, Tom Sneva, Jim McElreath, Jimmy Caruthers, Roger McCluskey, Mike Hiss, Jerry Karl, George Snider, Mel Kenyon, John Martin, Lloyd Ruby, Salt Walther, Sammy Sessions, Lee Kunzman, Mike Mosley, Bentley Warren, Steve Krisiloff, Duane Carter Jr., Johnny Parsons, Tom Bigelow and Johnny Hubbard.

[Justus]

Thanks for the list, Eddie. Bobbie Allison was in that race, it would be cool if a 32nd card turned up and it was him. Always one of my favorites.

[Bored5000]

Thanks for the list, Eddie. Bobbie Allison was in that race, it would be cool if a 32nd card turned up and it was him. Always one of my favorites.

Glad to help. If some of the cards were changed for the '76 set, I am surprised there is apparently not a Janet Guthrie card. Maybe the timeline was just too tight, however. There was a ton of buzz/controversy surrounding her in '76; she passed her rookie test at Indy that year and was in the field at the Pocono race in '76.

[Bored5000]

I know PWCC auction results should be taken with a grain of salt at times, but the PSA 5 1972 STP Petty that ended a few days ago had strong interest, closing at $356 with four bidders over $300. It wasn't that long ago that a mid-grade Petty was a $125-150 card.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Racing-Magazine-STP-Richard-Petty-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC/143632746648

[Beansballcardblog]

I want to own just one card from this set, but it's not been on my radar, yet. Have you seen other recent sales that might be more accurate? Not following them, I'm not too surprised to see $356 (for a PWCC auction), but I may be off base.

I know PWCC auction results should be taken with a grain of salt at times, but the PSA 5 1972 STP Petty that ended a few days ago had strong interest, closing at $356 with four bidders over $300. It wasn't that long ago that a mid-grade Petty was a $125-150 card.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Racing-Magazine-STP-Richard-Petty-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC/143632746648

[Bored5000]

I want to own just one card from this set, but it's not been on my radar, yet. Have you seen other recent sales that might be more accurate? Not following them, I'm not too surprised to see $356 (for a PWCC auction), but I may be off base.

A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA_Graded_Auto_Racing_Collection__4__-LOT20906.aspx

If you are just looking for a random card from the 1972 STP set, Buddy Baker and Elmo Langley are your best bet. That are, by far, the most common cards in the set and can be found in the $20-25 range if you keep your eye out on eBay. Don't pay $50+ for a Baker or Langley card that has been sitting on eBay for a while. Those two drivers do come up at cheaper prices on eBay fairly frequently. A couple Bakers even went for under $15 in recent months.

[Justus]

I agree with Eddie, the $356 seems strong. But I think the Love of the Game lot was very low (and overlooked/missed) for the cards included.

Maybe the STPs are starting to catch some of the major sport craze going on right now.

[Justus]

[QUOTE=Bored5000;1994418]A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA_Graded_Auto_Racing_Collection__4__-LOT20906.aspx

Hey Eddie, I just found this. The PSA 4 from the LOTG auction sold on ebay for $400 on 5/24. Wow, maybe we are behind the times on the values of these cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Stp-Richard-Petty-RC-PSA-4-Vg-Ex-/274372889323?hash=item3fe1e60aeb%3Ag%3Aid0AAOSwRXx exwnJ&nma=true&si=U0a79c6j8GCInLo3eAO3dIp%252BHlo%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Bored5000]

[QUOTE=Bored5000;1994418]A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA_Graded_Auto_Racing_Collection__4__-LOT20906.aspx

Hey Eddie, I just found this. The PSA 4 from the LOTG auction sold on ebay for $400 on 5/24. Wow, maybe we are behind the times on the values of these cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Stp-Richard-Petty-RC-PSA-4-Vg-Ex-/274372889323?hash=item3fe1e60aeb%3Ag%3Aid0AAOSwRXx exwnJ&nma=true&si=U0a79c6j8GCInLo3eAO3dIp%252BHlo%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Oh, jeez. That used to be my card. At one point, I had three Petty cards from buying different lots trying to put a set together. I received a PM from a member on here a couple years ago asking if I had an extra Petty. I am pretty sure I sold it for $125. I missed it getting resold on eBay. Some profit and three free cards to boot from the auction price at LotG.

A few more months and the Schaefer 500 cards should be going for $100 each. ;)

[Bored5000]

I was watching the four different lots of T36 auto drivers that were auctioned off last night at vintagenonsports.com, but did not put in any bids. I wish I would have picked up a set of T36s a few years ago, before the prices escalated.

The four lots at auction last night were broken down by factory and brand. I am not a condition snob, but so many of those cards last night were really in rough shape. Altogether, 132 cards were sold in the four lots. I 'd like to pick up a basic 25-card set; there was just so much rattiness and extraneous cards in those lots last night.

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Mecca_Tobacco__Factory_649__Auto_Drivers_Lot_o-LOT4294.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Mecca_Tobacco__Factory_30__Auto_Drivers_Lot_of-LOT4295.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Hassan_Tobacco__Factory_30__Auto_Drivers_Lot_o-LOT4292.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Hassan_Tobacco__Factory_649__Auto_Drivers_Lot_-LOT4293.aspx

[nsaddict]

On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

[Bored5000]

On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

I know Lancia is tough in the T36s, but wow. A Lancia PSA 4 just sold for $143 on eBay a few weeks ago. LOL When I saw your post, I figured it was an Oldfield card.

[Beansballcardblog]

I completely missed out on these and hate myself for it. Even in rough shape, a couple of the lots ended at under $10 a card (I don't know what the BP is there, though), which is a steal considering how these cards have sold the last handful of year.

Then again, I say that as a guy that's not a condition freak. When it comes to cards like this, I just want the cards (at the right price).

I'm going to be beating myself up for weeks, maybe months, over missing out on these.


I was watching the four different lots of T36 auto drivers that were auctioned off last night at vintagenonsports.com, but did not put in any bids. I wish I would have picked up a set of T36s a few years ago, before the prices escalated.

The four lots at auction last night were broken down by factory and brand. I am not a condition snob, but so many of those cards last night were really in rough shape. Altogether, 132 cards were sold in the four lots. I 'd like to pick up a basic 25-card set; there was just so much rattiness and extraneous cards in those lots last night.

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Mecca_Tobacco__Factory_649__Auto_Drivers_Lot_o-LOT4294.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Mecca_Tobacco__Factory_30__Auto_Drivers_Lot_of-LOT4295.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Hassan_Tobacco__Factory_30__Auto_Drivers_Lot_o-LOT4292.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.com/T36_Hassan_Tobacco__Factory_649__Auto_Drivers_Lot_-LOT4293.aspx

[Beansballcardblog]

Yeah, this one popped up for me. I just wanna know what that guy is on.


On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

[RCMcKenzie]

Whoa, that 5.5 is nice! I hope he auctions it off. I have the T36 set and am not going for a master set. I am trying to gradually upgrade. I was watching Tom's auction, and almost bid, as the factory 30's are tough, but I just didn't need all those dupes. Rob

[teza11]

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

[Bored5000]

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

Glad to see a board member pick up the T36s. I apologize if I offended with my earlier comment; that was not my intent at all. I am largely a low grade collector myself, so I should not have been so flippant. :)

[teza11]

No offense taken. I actually thought it was pretty funny.

Jeff

[lumberjack]

I collect original photos. Baseball is my main interest, but I have picked up about a dozen vintage prints c. 1915-1925 that I would like to sell. I realize most of these comments are about cards, but maybe someone on this thread likes photos. This stuff isn't easy to come by.
lumberjack

[Beansballcardblog]

Congrats, Jeff....you got a steal. <sigh>

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

[Beansballcardblog]

Interesting that you mentioned that Factory 30s are tough. Is this something that others have noticed and/or is this a widely held view?

I have the complete front run and have 58 of 100 backs.

I had noticed that I had less 30s, but it wasn't an alarming difference. My set breakdown (I have eight multiples that I'm not counting in these numbers):

Hassan 30 - 10
Hassan 649 - 17
Mecca 30 - 13
Mecca 649 - 18

I love seeing some new names in the thread with an interest in the set (even if it's costing me more and taking me more time LOL).

-kin

Whoa, that 5.5 is nice! I hope he auctions it off. I have the T36 set and am not going for a master set. I am trying to gradually upgrade. I was watching Tom's auction, and almost bid, as the factory 30's are tough, but I just didn't need all those dupes. Rob

[Bored5000]

I want to give a huge recommendation to Charles Leerhsen's 2012 book "Blood and Smoke: A True Tale of Mystery, Mayhem and the Birth of the Indy 500." Even though the book was released in print in 2012, it was just made available as an audiobook earlier this month. For collectors of the T36 set, this book is a treasure trove when it comes to learning about the drivers included in that set.

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Smoke-Mystery-Mayhem-Birth/dp/1439149054/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=blood+and+smoke+indy+500&qid=1595462953&s=books&sr=1-1

I am only about 1/4 of the way through listening to the audiobook (and have not even reached the start of the first Indy 500), and I have already learned tons of interesting stories about numerous T36 drivers. For example:

* Barney Oldfield, unquestionably the biggest star of auto racing's early days, rationalized that the frightful dangers of 1910s racing sure beat the alternative:

"I would rather be dead than dead broke," Oldfield was fond of saying.

* "Smiling George" Robertson was known to motivate his pit crew to work faster by getting out of his car and hitting them with wrenches during lengthy pit stops. Robertson was also alleged to have thrown wrenches out of his car at drivers attempting to pass him. Robertson admitted to the first charge, but vehemently denied the second accusation. To make his point, Robertson picked up a bucket of bolts and explained:

"This is what I use," said Robertson. "They are cheaper and work just as good. I might need the wrench for something else."

True to his nickname, Robertson is shown sporting a huge smile on his T36 card.

* French driver Victor Hemery was known as "The Surly One" due to his less than pleasant personality.

* David Bruce-Brown was an heir to the Lorillard's tobacco fortune. For card collectors, Lorillard's is known for their 1887 set of boxing cards.

* Italian born Ralph DePalma was almost always stereotyped in newspapers with Italian tropes of the day. For example, newspapers often wrote that DePalma preferred beating Oldfield on the track even above eating five plates of spaghetti.

* Lewis Strang, who was the nephew of fellow T36 driver Walter Christie, was killed is a road accident when his car overturned in a ditch at the breakneck speed of five miles per hour as Strang was trying to avoid an oncoming farmer. Strang would frequently carry coins in his pocket so that he could toss the change in the air and make a quick getaway from adoring fans as the crowd scattered to grab the money off the ground.

* The aforementioned Walter Christie's lasting legacy was as a tank designer for the Russian and British armies during World War II. During his racing career, Christie often drove a controversial twin-engine car that allowed the machine to operate in both front- and rear-wheel drive. The unique vehicle was frequently disqualified before a race even began, however, if the promoter actually cared about enforcing the "stock" rules of entries.

[Bored5000]

Wow, did anyone else notice the raw 1972 STP Petty auction that ended tonight on eBay -- $1,225 final hammer price with four bidders over $522? :eek: :eek:

Only a few years ago, this was a $125-150 card. I sold two of my three Petty STP cards 3-4 years ago for 10 percent of what that auction ended at tonight. Wonder what a Lorenzen with car would go for right now?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-Richard-Petty-Rookie-NASCAR-Trading-Card-RC/313282406208?hash=item48f1162740:g:~nQAAOSwZzNfnyk X

[Justus]

Eddie, I saw that and was shocked! Maybe it's time to sell my extra (from you, if my memory serves me).

An Allison sold the other night for $100 or best offer. Had a tack hole. I thought the price was right or even a little high for an Allison with a tack hole.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-1-Bobby-Allison-With-Pin-Hole-ZWb-2601/143825862790?hash=item217cb08086:g:gJQAAOSw4OJfpLW O#vi__app-cvip-panel

[Bored5000]

Eddie, I saw that and was shocked! Maybe it's time to sell my extra (from you, if my memory serves me).

An Allison sold the other night for $100 or best offer. Had a tack hole. I thought the price was right or even a little high for an Allison with a tack hole.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-1-Bobby-Allison-With-Pin-Hole-ZWb-2601/143825862790?hash=item217cb08086:g:gJQAAOSw4OJfpLW O#vi__app-cvip-panel

I only saw that Allison card a few minutes ago when I was looking at the sold listings. I missed it when was it was listed prior to the sale. For $100 or BO, I thought that was kinda cheap for how tough Allison is in the set. I didn't realize how tough Allison is in the set until you clued me in a few years ago, and you are right that his card very rarely surfaces for sale.

If I didn't have an Allison card, I would have been all over that for $100 -- even with the tack hole.

[Arazi4442]

I was watching that auction as well. I figured to blow everyone out of the water with my bid of $300 or so. :). A number of the non big 4 sport cards have been exploding along with the basketball and football Covid craze. Solid sale price on tha Lampo Clay that ended tonight as well.

[Bored5000]

I was watching that auction as well. I figured to blow everyone out of the water with my bid of $300 or so. :). A number of the non big 4 sport cards have been exploding along with the basketball and football Covid craze. Solid sale price on tha Lampo Clay that ended tonight as well.

One of the other non big four cards that has really exploded lately is the Wrestling All-Stars Hulk Hogan card. I am amazed at what even mid grade examples of that card are selling for these days. Net54's DPeck has to be sitting on a mountain of money just off his horde of Hogan cards. :D

[Bored5000]

The current REA auction contains one of racing's great rarities, the T227 Bruce Brown card. In a matter of hours, the card skyrocketed from $200 to $6,000 with the BP. :eek: So very cool to see a card of a very obscure racer already blow away what a Ty Cobb card from the same set in PSA 2 sells for. Really, there is no comparison between Ty Cobb and a Bruce Brown card. :D

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=82104

PSA has only graded four examples of the Brown card,and speculation is that card was pulled shortly after release due to Brown's death. The Bruce Brown card is a major impediment for anyone trying to put together a T227 set, and several T227 collectors on here have stated in the past that they had not seen one for sale or at auction in decades.

I would love to have such a rare racing card, but it is already out of my budget for a single card. In the current price environment, wonder where this will end up?

[nsaddict]

I fully agree. I’d take Bruce over a 52T Mick any day of the week. Much scarcer than “the” Wagner!

[Bored5000]

Wow, the Brown card is already at $18,000 with the BP. :eek:

[ezez420]

And expect it to go a lot higher. This card is a $50k card


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[Republicaninmass]

Cant imagine who the consignor might be.

[ezez420]

Well it’s not me. I have one already.


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