Are you obligated to give a refund after an item is lost in the mail

[Joshchisox08]

Just wondering. I sent out an item a couple weeks ago. Shipping from CT to Ohio in a regular envelope. I did ship in small 25 card holder with only 1 stamp. But the mailman took it.

The buyer opened a claim with eBay before he ever contacted me. I think that's a minor red flag. It's always possible he received it and is now opening a claim to get his money back.

For the most part conversation has been civil. He said he'd wait till this past weekend. He then said maybe it's being held at the post office which I plan on calling today.

Do you guys think this warrants a full refund? I'd like to say that I don't feel as though I'm obligated to issue one as it isn't my fault there was no insurance purchased. At very minimum a half refund should be issued. Just wondering what your thoughts are.

[ATP]

If there wasn't enough postage on it, it's likely being held at his local post office and payment due for the amount needed. They usually will stick a small note in his mailbox to let him know the amount due and where it is. As far as refund goes, insurance is there to protect the seller more so than the buyer, so yes the obligation to full refund is on the seller if the package never arrives. I bet it is at his local post office though awaiting payment.

[x2drich2000]

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure the item arrives in the condition described. The customer paid for the product and you did not deliver it. Why should the customer have to take the loss when they had zero control of your actions or the PO's actions?

DJ

[Peter_Spaeth]

We had this conversation not too long ago. Legally, the buyer probably has the risk of loss. But ethically, I think it's on the seller, assuming you determine the buyer is acting in good faith and the item really is lost.

PS if it's ebay and you can't prove delivery they are going to side with the buyer I think.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'd like to say that I don't feel as though I'm obligated to issue one as it isn't my fault there was no insurance purchased.

Insurance is not to protect the buyer, it is to protect the seller.

If you can't prove delivery, he wins his case. Period.

Unfortunate, but that's the way it is with eBay.

You also have to put yourself in his shoes. If you bought an item that wasn't received, wouldn't you want your money back too?

[asoriano]

I sent out an item a couple weeks ago. Shipping from CT to Ohio in a regular envelope. I did ship in small 25 card holder with only 1 stamp. But the mailman took it.


Why send a card in a regular envelope? Just wondering.

I'd issue a full refund.

[Joshchisox08]

Insurance is not to protect the buyer, it is to protect the seller.


You also have to put yourself in his shoes. If you bought an item that wasn't received, wouldn't you want your money back too?

I do remember awhile ago when I won a t206 Doc White card. (My opinion) is the card sold way lower than the seller wanted to take for it and claimed he had lost it. I was issued a refund though.

It's still a double edged sword to me. Sure he gets his refund but then I lose my card with no compensation.

I bet it is at his local post office though awaiting payment.

Wait at his Post Office?

[Joshchisox08]

All things aside I don not wish to receive negative feedback nor piss someone off so will likely refund per his request if it is not at either post office.

I never did receive anything stating that it was being held and he said he didn't either.


UPDATE!!!

Called my local post office and they said that it is likely sitting at his post office.

[GregMitch34]

Josh, on that Doc White card, I had EXACT experience and same feeling that seller just felt it sold for too little. I bet same seller.

[JustinD]

This is why delivery confirmation is so important.

I know it saves money in the immediate sense by costing more, but I very much enjoy the comfort of knowing that card (hopefully) got to it's end destination.

This will always protect the seller. I have had a couple bummer moments in which the item was shown delivered to me, but the lovely mailman delivered it to some other mystery location. I have found that you as a buyer are basically screwed if this happens as paypal just closes the case the second the seller provides shipping confirmation.

[botn]

It is pretty basic. Both paypal and ebay recommend having tracking (and insurance if justified). As David points out it is really for the seller's protection. To not do this is really asking for trouble.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Insurance is not to protect the buyer, it is to protect the seller.

If you can't prove delivery, he wins his case. Period.

Unfortunate, but that's the way it is with eBay.

You also have to put yourself in his shoes. If you bought an item that wasn't received, wouldn't you want your money back too?

I hate it how when negotiating a card the seller makes a BIG deal that he will purchase a ton of insurance on it like that is to the buyers benefit....the insurance is there for the seller...never understood that bargaining point by the seller

[DBesse27]

It is likely at his PO, but you made a shoddy shipping choice IMO.

[tschock]

When selling (and trading), I've always aligned my shipping method based on what I could afford to lose if an item never arrived or was damaged.

[iowadoc77]

When selling (and trading), I've always aligned my shipping method based on what I could afford to lose if an item never arrived or was damaged.

Excellent thought process here. That is how I determine insurance as well.

[obcbobd]

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure the item arrives in the condition described. The customer paid for the product and you did not deliver it. Why should the customer have to take the loss when they had zero control of your actions or the PO's actions?

DJ
+1

[pokerplyr80]

I have never received a card in a regular envelope that I ordered online. That alone would be enough to get negative feedback from me, not to mention mailing without proper postage. Sounds like at best for the buyer it will require an unnecessary trip to the post office.

[Wayne]

I sold an item on e-bay back at the first of December the customer contacted me and told me he has not received his item yet. After constant communication I gave him a choice I could refund his money or send something comparable. I package another shipment for him and he let me know that the card came in but not in the bubble mailer and the envelope was tore up but the card was safe and sound.

I did us a DC and after a 2 weeks of shipping it was like the DC never existed.

My suggestion is stay in constant communication and if the item in fact does not show up make it right one way or another it is like a trade it is not complete until both sides are happy except you are trading cards for cash in this case.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Side rant.

Nothing worse than being charged $3 for shipping and the seller shipping the item in an envelope for $1. Situation is made even worse when you buy 8 cards from 1959 and only 2 of them are in a hard case protector and the other 6 aren't protected at all, just placed in between the two hard cases with no tape.

But, ya, I'm a bad buyer because I find that reprehensible.

[Exhibitman]

Two wrongs don't make a right, Ryan. Just because a seller deals with you shabbily doesn't justify another bad act.

If a seller chooses to do business with stamped mail and no delivery confirmation, he is setting himself up for a fraudulent charge-back. Either don't send stuff that way or don't complain about a charge-back when someone either doesn't get an item or sees a chance to scam. Since the seller has control over the item listing [where he can specify the postage] and the item packing and mailing, he is the one on whom a mail loss should fall. As a buyer all I am obliged to do is pay the costs and mailing costs that the seller specifies. I do that and I'm done. The rest is the responsibility of the seller and fault of the seller if there is a problem.

[asoriano]

I have never received a card in a regular envelope that I ordered online. That alone would be enough to get negative feedback from me, not to mention mailing without proper postage. Sounds like at best for the buyer it will require an unnecessary trip to the post office.

+1

[Joshchisox08]

I have never received a card in a regular envelope that I ordered online. That alone would be enough to get negative feedback from me, not to mention mailing without proper postage. Sounds like at best for the buyer it will require an unnecessary trip to the post office.

I've received cards in regular envelopes from people off of Net54 plenty of times.

One of which I won't mention (names) but I have been a regular buyer. No complaints as you CAN securely keep cards safe in them. I will continue to buy off members who ship that way because I trust them and haven't had an issue once.

I'm guessing at least for eBay purposes is that the lesson is to always ship in a padded envelope with tracking.

For my instance I put the card in a very hard cover plastic not a top holder but a holder that would hold probably 20 cards. I also taped some cardboard around it. This should keep the card secure.

The unnecessary trip to the post office I understand and already apologized to the buyer as well as offering him a partial refund for his inconvenience. That is if it is in fact at the post office at all. I've yet to hear back from him.

[Edwolf1963]

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure the item arrives in the condition described.

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.

I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.

One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200 :mad:

[Peter_Spaeth]

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.

I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.

One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200 :mad:

That is not my understanding of the law in general. What do you base that on? As we discussed here recently, the general/default rule under the Uniform Commercial Code is that risk of loss passes to the buyer upon delivery of the goods to a common carrier. That said, the right thing is obviously to refund the money, and if it's an ebay transaction their own rules would apply anyhow.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=214348&highlight=carrier

[Joshchisox08]

UPDATE #2

He got back to me and said that his post office tried delivering it and couldn't because he wasn't home. He said that they did not put a missed delivery in his mail box.

I offered him a full refund or if he still wants the card the card and obviously a refunded shipping.

He appears to still want the card I apologized and said that if I get the card by Friday I would mail it out with some additional cards free of charge for this hassle. He seems to like this solution. In the end I guess I learned the lesson about shipping in general.

Still wonder why the post office wouldn't just leave it in my mailbox with a note or something. It seems like that could avoid a lot of hassle for everyone.

[thecatspajamas]

Do you guys think this warrants a full refund? I'd like to say that I don't feel as though I'm obligated to issue one as it isn't my fault there was no insurance purchased. At very minimum a half refund should be issued. Just wondering what your thoughts are.

It doesn't really matter whether you think a refund is warranted. If you sell it on eBay, you play by their rules. And their rules say that if you can't prove via online tracking that the package was delivered, you will give a full refund of sale price plus original shipping charged, or they will remove out from your account. Their rules also say that you can't give the buyer an option to purchase insurance at an additional cost. There is no wiggle room for an item shipped without tracking: if it doesn't turn up, or if the buyer simply says it never arrived, you will have to give the refund.

[thecatspajamas]

Still wonder why the post office wouldn't just leave it in my mailbox with a note or something. It seems like that could avoid a lot of hassle for everyone.

Probably because it's postage due. The USPS does not trust its customers as much as you trust your buyers and will not just leave a postage due package with a note to come to the post office when you have a chance and pay the extra $0.42 you owe them. They should have left a note (and may have and it was just overlooked), but they won't just leave the package that situation.

[4815162342]

+2 .. Hey Josh, legally it comes down to this and what others have mentioned along the same lines. We can debate all day about ethics, history, proof, etc. but this is the bottom line. Legally, a contract between two parties requires both sides receive what was agreed upon. If seller is paid and buyer doesn't get what was paid for, there is breach - regardless of whatever 3rd party (in this case, USPS) didn't fulfill - - the responsibility falls to the seller until buyer receives what was contracted for.



I remember not that long ago the occasional notations from eBay sellers about not responsible for items lost/damaged, not responsible if buyer doesn't take insurance, etc. They put a stop to that some time ago. I think David noted in those cases, you can't prove delivery - you lose.



One other note - buying $200 worth of insurance (as an example) on a card you sold for that amount won't likely get you that back from USPS (or UPS for that matter) if they lose/damage. There's some limited liability on paper products, perishable as well as proof of value you must provide beyond what someone paid for it. I found that out the hard way on a watch sold to someone in Canada for $200, insured for that amount - USPS/Canada post loses it and in the end I got a check back for $45. Insult to injury - eBay still charged me the FVF @10% of the $200 :mad:


A few years ago I sold an autographed photo on eBay and shipped it with insurance. It arrived damaged, so after the buyer sent me a picture of said damage, I submitted a claim online to USPS. It took a while, but they paid the full amount (eBay winning bid) of the claim to the buyer. He was very happy and gave me positive feedback.

[Zach Wheat]

If there wasn't enough postage on it, it's likely being held at his local post office and payment due for the amount needed. They usually will stick a small note in his mailbox to let him know the amount due and where it is. As far as refund goes, insurance is there to protect the seller more so than the buyer, so yes the obligation to full refund is on the seller if the package never arrives. I bet it is at his local post office though awaiting payment.


Agree with Al here. Also I've had a small package returned to me even though I had enough postage on it for a first class shipment. However, the item was too thick and thus rejected. I did not get the returned item until. 6 weeks later.....we all wondered what had happened to the item.

I think you will be obligated to give a full refund whether you want to or not. Good luck.

Z

[TheNightmanCometh]

Two wrongs don't make a right, Ryan. Just because a seller deals with you shabbily doesn't justify another bad act.

If a seller chooses to do business with stamped mail and no delivery confirmation, he is setting himself up for a fraudulent charge-back. Either don't send stuff that way or don't complain about a charge-back when someone either doesn't get an item or sees a chance to scam. Since the seller has control over the item listing [where he can specify the postage] and the item packing and mailing, he is the one on whom a mail loss should fall. As a buyer all I am obliged to do is pay the costs and mailing costs that the seller specifies. I do that and I'm done. The rest is the responsibility of the seller and fault of the seller if there is a problem.

For full disclosure, I contacted the seller and told him I was unhappy with his shipping methods. TBH, all I wanted was a refund of $2 because I know what paying $3 shipping as a buyer should get me. The guy didn't respond, so I sent him another message telling him again that I was dissatisfied and I'd appreciate some sort of response. He responded by getting angry with me. I told him that was unfortunate and left not negative, but the other one that isn't positive, can't remember. I proceeded to block him as a buyer and block him as a seller so I don't ever buy an item from him again. Before it went into effect he bought one of my cards and made it clear he had no intention of paying. I canceled the order and he left me negative feedback calling me a liar and a 2-face, apparently because I charge $3 for shipping, but what he doesn't know is that I put the cards I sell in a sleeve, top loader, wrap it in cardboard, tape it, put it in a bubble mailer, and I add tracking. Anyways, I called ebay and they rescinded his negative feedback.

Look, I'll pay $10 for shipping if I'm getting $10 worth of shipping. Throwing cards in an envelope and charging $3 is gouging to me.

[pokerplyr80]

Probably because it's postage due. The USPS does not trust its customers as much as you trust your buyers and will not just leave a postage due package with a note to come to the post office when you have a chance and pay the extra $0.42 you owe them. They should have left a note (and may have and it was just overlooked), but they won't just leave the package that situation.

I actually received a small package in the mail once, in my mailbox, that had postage due. They left a little envelope asking for about 20 cents. I put the change in and left it in the box but thought it was unusual. Saved me a trip to the post office at least.

[tschock]

I actually received a small package in the mail once, in my mailbox, that had postage due. They left a little envelope asking for about 20 cents. I put the change in and left it in the box but thought it was unusual. Saved me a trip to the post office at least.

I've had that happen a couple times in the past as well, but nothing recently (the last number of years). I think it's more up to the carrier (or the area) and whether they know you, and/or 'covering' the cost him/her self if you don't pony up.

[Gradedcardman]

Never ship without tracking. EBay will never side in your favor without it. I also would only ship via Net54 with tracking as well.

[Joshchisox08]

Never ship without tracking. EBay will never side in your favor without it. I also would only ship via Net54 with tracking as well.

My semi-hard-learned-lesson

UPDATE #3

Card arrived back in my mailbox. Buyer still wants it. I refunded his shipping. I gave him the tracking information and let him know I will be including another Game Used Card along with the card he purchased. He seems very understanding and we're even talking about the AL Central now!

Makes you wonder you find good people when you least expect it! :D

[Edwolf1963]

That is not my understanding of the law in general. What do you base that on? As we discussed here recently, the general/default rule under the Uniform Commercial Code is that risk of loss passes to the buyer upon delivery of the goods to a common carrier. That said, the right thing is obviously to refund the money, and if it's an ebay transaction their own rules would apply anyhow.

I wasn't aware of the previous discussion on the subject. I thought that the UCC common carrier article only applies where there is no breach, which can be interpreted as a contractual obligation "not fulfilled". Since this transaction was not fulfilled, a breach of contract could at least be claimed. It was my understanding that in these cases and/or where the UCC does not govern, superseded by host rules (IE: eBay) if the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss.

Side note: My understanding was also that the UCC is not adopted in all jurisdictions, has many disputed articles and interpretations as well. To what extent, I'm not sure .. I'm not a lawyer, so I may indeed stand corrected. I've had some previous experience in this area which led to my general understanding and interpretation. I guess if push came to shove, I wouldn't want (or expect) the UCC common carrier interpretation to be my sole crutch.

All that aside, IMO the bottom line goes back to what you and others have noted about doing the right thing and in this case, moot as eBay rules will govern. The buyer is backed unless proof of delivery and in same condition are provided.

[martyp]

I have had two different sellers send me items in a flat envelope that required me to go to the Post Office window an pay additional postage. If there is something that is too thick or rigid and the PO employee feels that it may get damaged in the machine, they cancel the stamps by hand which is an up charge. This will stop the envelope from being delivered.

If it does go into the machine, there is a possibility that the rollers will get caught on what every is inside and damage the envelope. If the address gets damaged, they do not know where it goes.

Sounds like your card may have been hand cancelled and the buyer will have to pay the additional postage after they stand in line at the PO.

[Jantz]

Never ship without tracking. EBay will never side in your favor without it. I also would only ship via Net54 with tracking as well.

Best advice in this whole thread!

The only time I don't use tracking is if the package contains a few modern commons that amount to pocket change.

Tracking almost equates to insurance and peace of mind.

[Leon]

This or you take your chances. It's pretty simple.

Never ship without tracking. EBay will never side in your favor without it. I also would only ship via Net54 with tracking as well.

[basesareempty]

Nothing goes out unless it has DC and insurance.

[steve B]

Agree with Al here. Also I've had a small package returned to me even though I had enough postage on it for a first class shipment. However, the item was too thick and thus rejected. I did not get the returned item until. 6 weeks later.....we all wondered what had happened to the item.

I think you will be obligated to give a full refund whether you want to or not. Good luck.

Z

I had the same thing. A small old print mailed in a photo mailer with some good stiffeners, shipped at the small package rate because I knew it wasn't flexible enough. It got bounced back to me because of a bit of a hole in the PO regulations. Not flexible = Package, not flexible AND between 1/4 and 3/4 inch = package that isn't eligible for DC. Unless it's sent priority mail.

So it came back written up as postage due for the priority mail. I repacked so it was 3/4 thick, and they took it back. I had a nice chat with the manager of the main PO about the gap in the regs. After the initial discussion, we had another with us each having printed out a page from the DMM. He was a bit surprised I had one as most customers don't even know to check. What concerned him the most was that whoever wrote it up had used a rate that had been obsolete for nearly a year!

Fortunately the buyer was a government official with the State Dept and was very understanding about confusing/conflicting rules. :)

Steve B

[Zach Wheat]

Fortunately the buyer was a government official with the State Dept and was very understanding about confusing/conflicting rules. :)

Steve B

Ironic the buyer was from the State Dept. Confusing rules.....no wonder the US Post Office is losing so much money!

Z

[jbbama]

PS if it's ebay and you can't prove delivery they are going to side with the buyer I think

[DBesse27]

Buy your postage direct thru PayPal and it's $2.60 for first class shipping, up to 4oz, and they throw in free tracking. 4oz is the weight of a bubble mailer plus 2 graded card slabs and additional packing material. Seems like a no brainer to me and there's really no excuse for not doing this, especially if selling on eBay.

[MooseDog]

Now it's $2.60 up to 8 oz and 1st class scales up to 15oz for $3.60

[JollyElm]

I buy a lot of stuff off of ebay, but usually just lower priced cards to upgrade my sets, so I welcome PWE's if it keeps my shipping costs down. A while back, I didn't receive a card in the mail (not sure if it was a PWE or 'regular' shipping), so I followed the proper channels through ebay and got a refund. However, a long while later, out of nowhere, the card eventually showed up. We're talking a month or two later. I messaged the seller, told him the package arrived, got his paypal info, and paid him again. There was no bargaining or throw-ins required. I just did the right thing. Hopefully that's what other people do, too.