scam alert: fake psa cards from ebay seller "cardregistry"

[begsu1013]

Bob Evans.



i am good thru amex/paypal.

bought a 67 mantle 9 from this guy.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/cardregistry?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754

typical re-sealment job.

i sent the card to psa and got the letter attached.

asked for a refund from seller w/i 48 hrs. said he couldn't.

but good thru amex/paypal.


however, interesting notes that others may be concerned about...

after conversing w/ seller afterwards, here are some more facts:

1. seller never had cards in hand. people paid him, "consignee" shipped.
2. he told me that he is in the midst of $150,000+ other fake cards sold.
3. i know he had a few other mantles and gem 10 rcs of: montana, rice and your typical marquee rookies.
4. they have removed the listing and pics, but this reseal job was scary good.


so might wanna pass this around or check your inventory to see if ya bought anything from this guy.

cant say for sure it was him or if he was just the beautiful idiot that took on a "consignment " w/o ever having the cards in his actual hands,

but just wanted to give everyone else a heads up that there's another 150K worth of fakes recently dumped into the market.

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/26029/10736882/ryan6011.jpg

[glchen]

Do you have a picture of the card? I'm curious to see if this was an older PSA case or even the newer PSA cases w/ new hologram flip are at risk.

[begsu1013]

i do. gimme a sec to find her...

[begsu1013]

here is the scan i had to provide psa in an attempt to have the card removed from someone else's set....

[GasHouseGang]

That does look "scary" good, as you said. I'm glad you got your money back.

[Jdoggs]

Wow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So this seller's attitude was basically yeah I know I sold you a bad card but tough luck?

[begsu1013]

ehh. sorta, kinda, not really...

it was more like:

"omg, i have just sold $150K in fake cards, that i never held. what the hell was i thinking. i've already paid this guy, i got bigger fish to fry but please bear with me..."

so gave him 48hrs to refund. he said he couldn't, so i took care of it my way...

amex already credited.

[begsu1013]

was thinking about sending in the letter to get "psa/dna verified" though!

HAHA!!!

[sbfinley]

Why you ever sign up to be a middle man on eBay without handling the goods? That's asking for trouble.

[begsu1013]

that's exactly what i told him.

i honestly think and feel that this poor guy is the dupe!

[CW]

Thanks for the heads up on this, Bob! Sucks that you had to go through this process.

What were the signs that tipped you off to it being a reseal, if you don't mind sharing? The scan shows almost no signs of frosting, so that's disheartening.

PSA's note indicated that the seal was "clearly violated". Is this true?

Finally, (sorry for all the questions :) ) was this the older style holder where you can feel the seam along the sides, or the newer style where the bottom portion fits into the top portion? Thanks!

[begsu1013]

no, it wasn't clearly visible.

i wish i woulda took a better scan of the entire holder...

i think i did and don't want to make any accusations just yet, BUT

to answer your question:

i tried to add it to my inventory on psacard.
other owner of the other mantle said he still had his card.
psa asked me to send it in*.

and this is the kicker:

since i couldn't log it in on psacard.com b/c someone else wouldn't release the cert
i created my own spec using the "add other inventory" tab.
i always do this when someone doesn't release a cert number simply because it let's me keep pertinent info.

well, the "1967 topps mantle psa 9" along w/ the front/back scans has vanished. again, i certainly hope they wouldn't and don't know for 100% certainty but i just hope they didn't go in to my inventory page and delete something....

* i would have sent her in regardless for a reholder. i do this w/ all cards over a certain threshold for protection. the other person not releasing the cert simply pushed it from being on the back burner so to speak...

[Peter_Spaeth]

ehh. sorta, kinda, not really...

it was more like:

"omg, i have just sold $150K in fake cards, that i never held. what the hell was i thinking. i've already paid this guy, i got bigger fish to fry but please bear with me..."

so gave him 48hrs to refund. he said he couldn't, so i took care of it my way...

amex already credited.

Great attitude. Tough shit Bob, hope you work it out with your credit card company.

[ksabet]

Uh-Oh, I bought two PSA 10 HOF Football Rc's from him in Nov. Not a huge amount, about $400 total but do you recommend me sending them in?

[begsu1013]

are they modern cards? seller did appear to be reputable prior to this dumb move.

go ahead and post scans, if ya want...but I think you might be good if they were in nov.

these fakes cards were posted around jan 7th.

[begsu1013]

Great attitude. Tough shit Bob, hope you work it out with your credit card company.

yep, im good.

just another day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Uh-Oh, I bought two PSA 10 HOF Football Rc's from him in Nov. Not a huge amount, about $400 total but do you recommend me sending them in?

At that $$$ level you are probably fine, I think it's the Montanas and Rices and Youngs of the world where the issues are. Hopefully anyhow.

[1952boyntoncollector]

no, it wasn't clearly visible.

i wish i woulda took a better scan of the entire holder...

i think i did and don't want to make any accusations just yet, BUT

to answer your question:

i tried to add it to my inventory on psacard.
other owner of the other mantle said he still had his card.
psa asked me to send it in*.

and this is the kicker:

since i couldn't log it in on psacard.com b/c someone else wouldn't release the cert
i created my own spec using the "add other inventory" tab.
i always do this when someone doesn't release a cert number simply because it let's me keep pertinent info.

well, the "1967 topps mantle psa 9" along w/ the front/back scans has vanished. again, i certainly hope they wouldn't and don't know for 100% certainty but i just hope they didn't go in to my inventory page and delete something....

* i would have sent her in regardless for a reholder. i do this w/ all cards over a certain threshold for protection. the other person not releasing the cert simply pushed it from being on the back burner so to speak...

I posted long ago that all the big cards should be on the registry so if you were going to buy a card an email would go out to the 'owner' so they could challenge it if they chose to be included on an email list

in your case the real owner just so happened to be on the registry and it worked out, if the card wasnt you likely woudnt of ever known for a least a very long time and long enough you may never of gotten your money back

everyone was worried about privacy concerns of doing my suggestion but you can see it saved you and again even if 40% of the real owners chose to be on a 'owner registry' ...thats 40% more fake mantles etc that can be discovered fast...

[begsu1013]

everyone was worried about privacy concerns of doing my suggestion but you can see it saved you and again even if 40% of the real owners chose to be on a 'owner registry' ...thats 40% more fake mantles etc that can be discovered fast...

seriously, dude?

i've never even read your post about whatever babble you decided to go on about.

in fact, i usually overlook anything you actually post.

(that's why i edited and put "NM" when i realized it was you looking for a 54 aaron 7 in your wtb thread)

but please do not try and take any credit that you saved me in any type of fashion.

i stick to my self set protocols and this card woulda been sent in for a reholder anyways.

i'm also thoroughly educated on my return parameters/time frames and the legalities involved to cover my own a$$.

i got this down to a science.

feel free to re-read the thread, but don't try to take any credit for some nonsense babble you posted god knows when.

shoo fly.

[1952boyntoncollector]

seriously, dude?

i've never even read your post about whatever babble you decided to go on about.

in fact, i usually overlook anything you actually post.

(that's why i edited and put "NM" when i realized it was you looking for a 54 aaron 7 in your wtb thread)

but please do not try and take any credit that you saved me in any type of fashion.

i stick to my self set protocols and this card woulda been sent in for a reholder anyways.

i'm also thoroughly educated on my return parameters/time frames and the legalities involved to cover my own a$$.

i got this down to a science.

feel free to re-read the thread, but don't try to take any credit for some nonsense babble you posted god knows when.

shoo fly.

seriously dude? I not sure anyone will agree with the point of yours post...i didnt say anything against you yet you posted some wierd stuff...not sure what you mean about the Aaron as well....and also not sure what you mean that it doesn't matter when someone pointed out something..there was a past thread or two..one of them was a discussoin with Peter Spieth actually..

i was simply showing how it worked out for you and that a system could help could help the card community a large. I get that you are the master yet you still had the need to post something there....perhaps you were trying to do some good to the community..i not see what the problem is with my suggestion with was an attempt to help the card community which I made long ago and i just noted that it appeared to work for you.......no biggie go on with your attacking non-sense...... im sure you have lots of RC Aarons to sell now...maybe you should of continued to overlook my posts and done us both a favor....of course if you respond that thats one more post you arent overlooking which would than appear you havent overlooked squat....but please overlook in future..thanks

[CW]

Interesting info, Bob. Thanks.

[Jobu]

cardregistry (2419)

Last 12 months:

1,032 positive
0 neutral
0 negative

I don't post this to challenge your story, I believe you, I am just baffled that this seller doesn't have any negative feedback.

[pokerplyr80]

Did PSA crack the card of the holder before they sent it back?

[begsu1013]

i checked him out previous to the purchase as well.

which is why i believe him when he said the cards were "consignments" after the fact.

this was purchased on jan 7.

but between the time that i actually got the card.

attempted to add the card to the registry.

wait the 3 days before i can request it be removed via email w/ a scan to psa.

wait their 2 days process to do the removal

find out that there is an issue from psa

converse back and forth

wait for a pre-paid label from them

mail the thing.

wait for it to get logged. (logged in feb 9th btw)

usually only takes 5 biz days to get things like this cleared up,

so this one musta been good bc it took close to 15 biz days and several wtf phone calls.

and just got the results this thurs...


throw all of the above in w/ a couple of holidays and we are unfortunately around 45 days to get a verifiable answer. i am probably ultimately the first to catch him/them on this round of fakes.

also, once i notified ebay that it was a fake i was unable to leave any feedback whatsoever.

still in disbelief about ebays stance on this and that they would remove the listing all together and not allow me to leave feedback.

[begsu1013]

Did PSA crack the card of the holder before they sent it back?

yep.

cracked it, confiscated the holder and flip.

had them send the card to him.

[pokerplyr80]

Scary stuff. Makes you wonder how many others are floating around in collections, not just the 150k in cards from this guy.

So was the card real, just not quite a 9?

[begsu1013]

i not see what the problem is with my suggestion with was an attempt to help the card community which I made long ago

exactly.

i am no master. there is always more room to learn.

but to answer what i think was an attempt at a question,

my sole reason to post this was to notify others of a serious and recent issue.

this otherwise flawless seller had some serious "cardboard" "consigned" which ultimately is fake and was used to run a $150K scheme in a matter of a month.

if this happened to someone else, i certainly would appreciate a heads up as well. i think anybody would.

in fact, i'd feel worse if i didn't post anything about it actually.

[begsu1013]

Scary stuff. Makes you wonder how many others are floating around in collections, not just the 150k in cards from this guy.

So was the card real, just not quite a 9?

card was 100% real. just "altered".

all they would give me.

take a solid 7, doctor her up a lil bit.

slip her into a very nicely tampered psa holder

insert a fake* flip

find a somewhat reliable ebay seller to take the consignment

and make $4K.


* the flip looked scary good as well. font was spot on. i did the flashlight test (no overlabel) and redlaser'd the barcode and it spit out the right cert number as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Somewhere south of the border, someone is laughing his butt off, all the way to the bank.

[begsu1013]

i have heard that as well. mexico, correct?

[Peter_Spaeth]

i have heard that as well. mexico, correct?

Si.

[begsu1013]

dios mio!

[1952boyntoncollector]

exactly.

i am no master. there is always more room to learn.

but to answer what i think was an attempt at a question,

my sole reason to post this was to notify others of a serious and recent issue.

this otherwise flawless seller had some serious "cardboard" "consigned" which ultimately is fake and was used to run a $150K scheme in a matter of a month.

if this happened to someone else, i certainly would appreciate a heads up as well. i think anybody would.

in fact, i'd feel worse if i didn't post anything about it actually.


right and my idea would help the card community..the way you found out about the fake would be the exact same way others could be helped by my idea as it just happened in practice with you but right now its very limited....just putting it out there so others can be helped...

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

It was only a matter of time before these professional thieves took notice of the surging card prices to make the counterfeit process worthwhile. Very scary. If I was PSA I would institute a team to tackle this issue before it damages their credibility and hurts the hobby irreparably.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It was only a matter of time before these professional thieves took notice of the surging card prices to make the counterfeit process worthwhile. Very scary. If I was PSA I would institute a team to tackle this issue before it damages their credibility and hurts the hobby irreparably.

i still waiting for the half grade fake...when one of those shows up we know the floodgates have opened....and i wish PSA would implement an 'owner registry' (being informed if someone has a dup cert number out there without yourself building a card registry) as stated before.....if anyone else has ideas for PSA as AJjohnsonsox fan wants PSA to tackle the issue im sure PSA is all ears as well

[Peter_Spaeth]

i still waiting for the half grade fake...when one of those shows up we know the floodgates have opened....and i wish PSA would implement an 'owner registry' (being informed if someone has a dup cert number out there without yourself building a card registry) as stated before.....if anyone else has ideas for PSA as AJjohnsonsox fan wants PSA to tackle the issue im sure PSA is all ears as well

With a bad Mantle 8 having been pulled from a recent auction in a new holder with the hologram, they may have opened already.

[1952boyntoncollector]

With a bad Mantle 8 having been pulled from a recent auction in a new holder with the hologram, they may have opened already.

we know for sure that Mantle was bad? I never heard the outcome of that but i guess if its not relisted than that answers that......

[botn]

It was only a matter of time before these professional thieves took notice of the surging card prices to make the counterfeit process worthwhile. Very scary. If I was PSA I would institute a team to tackle this issue before it damages their credibility and hurts the hobby irreparably.

This happened over a dozen years ago...http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63017. There are various versions of the what took place. PSA has their version of course but the resealing of holders is nothing new. Only thing about this latest run, most of which are tied to coming out of Mexico, is that it is much more high profile cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

we know for sure that Mantle was bad? I never heard the outcome of that but i guess if its not relisted than that answers that......

Yeah it was bad. Someone who had the real one apparently sounded the alarm.

[botn]

we know for sure that Mantle was bad? I never heard the outcome of that but i guess if its not relisted than that answers that......

I was told the Mantle was real just altered. The holder was resealed and it is PSA's stance is that it was very obvious. I am not sure that part is 100% accurate though or simply PSA trying to cover up their that their new holder can be opened and resealed. That card is linked to the Mexico operation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yeah it was bad. Someone who had the real one apparently sounded the alarm.

would of been real easy if they could of been contacted on a owner registry before an auction house got duped....was the mantle fake or just a lower grade..i wonder how much the owner of the fake psa 8 mantle paid for the card or when he bought it from craigslist.... PSA seems to always say the tampering of the holder looks obvious...but not obvious to me when i see pictures

[vthobby]

He has a supposed PSA 10 Marichal Rookie and the bottom right hand corner is fuzzy!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek::eek:

Wow!!!! Stay far away!

Peace, Mike

Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-TOPPS-JUAN-MARICHAL-RC-PSA-10-POP-6-CARDREGISTRY-hof-/391365616456?hash=item5b1f356348:g:XK4AAOSwqrtWmVX t


222738

[iwantitiwinit]

I was told the Mantle was real just altered. The holder was resealed and it is PSA's stance is that it was very obvious. I am not sure that part is 100% accurate though or simply PSA trying to cover up their that their new holder can be opened and resealed. That card is linked to the Mexico operation.

Does it have to be a situation where their holder has been opened and resealed. What if someone has been able to duplicate the holder. They then buy some low value cards in new psa holders to get a hold of the new flips with holograms and create new fake flips using the holograms that have been skinned from the real flips on the cheap cards. They then take their PSA substituted holders, put in a lower grade star card with the fabricated flip. Is that possible/probable? Does PSA make the holders on site or do they buy them from suppliers?

[iwantitiwinit]

He has a supposed PSA 10 Marichal Rookie and the bottom right hand corner is fuzzy!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek::eek:

Wow!!!! Stay far away!

Peace, Mike

Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-TOPPS-JUAN-MARICHAL-RC-PSA-10-POP-6-CARDREGISTRY-hof-/391365616456?hash=item5b1f356348:g:XK4AAOSwqrtWmVX t


222738

That hologram looks strange.

[brass_rat]

Does PSA make the holders on site or do they buy them from suppliers?

The following is from the Collectors Universe annual report :

http://investors.collectors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1437749-15-16532&CIK=1089143

"Supplies

In order to obtain volume discounts through June 30, 2015, we have chosen to purchase substantially all of the injection-molded plastic parts for our clear plastic holders principally from two suppliers. We have chosen to order our most critical high-volume plastic part from both of these suppliers. We choose one or the other of these suppliers to manufacture other less critical parts. We typically concentrate the purchase of holders through one supplier when developing new holders. There are numerous suppliers for these parts, and we believe that, if necessary, we could obtain those parts from other suppliers without incurring significant costs. However, if it became necessary for us to obtain any parts from another supplier, we might have to arrange for the fabrication of a die for the new supplier. Fabrication of high-value precision dies can be a lengthy process. Although we do not have back-up dies for some of our high-value volume injection-molded parts, we own the dies used to manufacture the parts, and we believe the inventory of parts we maintain is sufficient to give us the time to have another supplier build the parts, should the need to do so arise or should we decide to use another supplier for certain parts."

[begsu1013]

Does it have to be a situation where their holder has been opened and resealed. What if someone has been able to duplicate the holder. They then buy some low value cards in new psa holders to get a hold of the new flips with holograms and create new fake flips using the holograms that have been skinned from the real flips on the cheap cards. They then take their PSA substituted holders, put in a lower grade star card with the fabricated flip. Is that possible/probable? Does PSA make the holders on site or do they buy them from suppliers?

i would imagine you could book a flight to china w/ a holder in hand and have multiple manufacturers set up w/in minutes....flips too.

ship them to mexico. grab a sonic welder, start buying up cards & voilà!

$150k in a month!

[begsu1013]

and i think the marichal is real. it has his carpet background, so that just may be psa! ; )

here is a list of items sold w/ highest prices first.

remember, this guy didn't have them "in hand"....

you will see that the first couple all have the "black background" vs his carpet background

my mantle is removed from the list, i know there was an 86 rice 10 and jeter sp 10 that seem to have disappeared from the sold list

but these are some biggies and there are probably a few more that were done direct....

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=391365616456&rmvSB=true&hash=item5b1f356348%3Ag%3AXK4AAOSwqrtWmVXt&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover %252F1%252F711-53200-19255-0%252F1%253Fcampid%253D5336861720%2526customid%253 DNET54%2526toolid%253D10001%2526mpre%253Dhttp%2525 3A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fitm%25252F1961-TOPPS-JUAN-MARICHAL-RC-PSA-10-POP-6-CARDREGISTRY-hof-%25252F391365616456%25253Fhash%25253Ditem5b1f35634 8%25253Ag%25253AXK4AAOSwqrtWmVXt%2526srcrot%253D71 1-53200-19255-0%2526rvr_id%253D988930417488&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_ssn=cardregistry&_sop=16

[Beastmode]

i would imagine you could book a flight to china w/ a holder in hand and have multiple manufacturers set up w/in minutes....flips too.

ship them to mexico. grab a sonic welder, start buying up cards & voilà!

$150k in a month!

I have doubts about the "I'm just a consigner" excuse. I know the seller's history looks good, but we've seen recently what greed can do to the best of them.

More importantly, consigners will soon have some liability for fraudulent auctions, and it's long overdue. Can't play the dumb-card much longer.

Otherwise, why not open an auction house, sell all of your fraudulent cards, and then say say they were someone else's cards. Oh wait, that's already been done.

[DeanH3]

Thanks for letting us know about this this Bob. Man, these fake holders send a chill down my spine. I only know Bob from his postings here and on the CU boards, but I'm confident that he's seen enough PSA holders that if this one could have passed the eye test to him initially, these con artists are mighty sophisticated.

[irv]

and i think the marichal is real. it has his carpet background, so that just may be psa! ; )

here is a list of items sold w/ highest prices first.

remember, this guy didn't have them "in hand"....

you will see that the first couple all have the "black background" vs his carpet background

my mantle is removed from the list, i know there was an 86 rice 10 and jeter sp 10 that seem to have disappeared from the sold list

but these are some biggies and there are probably a few more that were done direct....

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=391365616456&rmvSB=true&hash=item5b1f356348%3Ag%3AXK4AAOSwqrtWmVXt&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover %252F1%252F711-53200-19255-0%252F1%253Fcampid%253D5336861720%2526customid%253 DNET54%2526toolid%253D10001%2526mpre%253Dhttp%2525 3A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fitm%25252F1961-TOPPS-JUAN-MARICHAL-RC-PSA-10-POP-6-CARDREGISTRY-hof-%25252F391365616456%25253Fhash%25253Ditem5b1f35634 8%25253Ag%25253AXK4AAOSwqrtWmVXt%2526srcrot%253D71 1-53200-19255-0%2526rvr_id%253D988930417488&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_ssn=cardregistry&_sop=16

Wow, lots of current bids on those cards too! :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

That hologram looks strange.

They scan different ways depending on how the light reflects.

[Beastmode]

Has this guy turned his consignee into the authorities? Has he told you the guys name? What area are these "fake" cards coming from? If he hasn't, he's in on it.

[Leon]

Has this guy turned his consignee into the authorities? Has he told you the guys name? What area are these "fake" cards coming from? If he hasn't, he's in on it.

A few years back it was discovered that many fakes were coming from south of the border. It has been investigated by the Secret Service in CA but I don't know if that got anywhere. It is a big scheme.

[Beastmode]

A few years back it was discovered that many fakes were coming from south of the border. It has been investigated by the Secret Service in CA but I don't know if that got anywhere. It is a big scheme.

I understand, but explain to me how this guy is consigning cards with someone he doesn't know? Are these cards showing up in his mail box. Doesn't the thief have to fill out a form with loads of personal/financial information?

Seems to me that once Bob notified him of the fraudulent cards, he would turn over his consignee to the authorities. Is this too simple?

[Leon]

From what I remember it was a ponzi type scheme before. I think one guy ended up in jail back then, in California?. If you search some, on this board, you will find some answers. I spent quite a few hours on it back then.

I understand, but explain to me how this guy is consigning cards with someone he doesn't know? Are these cards showing up in his mail box. Doesn't the thief have to fill out a form with loads of personal/financial information?

Seems to me that once Bob notified him of the fraudulent cards, he would turn over his consignee to the authorities. Is this too simple?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I understand, but explain to me how this guy is consigning cards with someone he doesn't know? Are these cards showing up in his mail box. Doesn't the thief have to fill out a form with loads of personal/financial information?

Seems to me that once Bob notified him of the fraudulent cards, he would turn over his consignee to the authorities. Is this too simple?

I doubt the distribution scheme is that simple, it probably has multiple levels, although I don't know.

[botn]

The authorities are aware of certain individuals who are acting as mules for the guy in Mexico who is resealing these holders. Have no idea why arrests have not been made. I understand that PSA is actively cooperating with the investigation but also keeping it very quiet. This is very much like the WIWAG scandal in 2002 where collectors were not being looked out for--just need to make sure the brand is protected. PSA feels the best way to do that is not call attention to the problem.

[begsu1013]

I understand, but explain to me how this guy is consigning cards with someone he doesn't know? Are these cards showing up in his mail box. Doesn't the thief have to fill out a form with loads of personal/financial information?

Seems to me that once Bob notified him of the fraudulent cards, he would turn over his consignee to the authorities. Is this too simple?

a few updates...

after texting w/ seller and entering into "aggressive" negotiations, it appears that he has notified other buyers of the issue. as it has come to my attention that the seller was notified that another card was a fake and i laid into him for not telling me that mine was fake. (i told him jan 26, there was a possible issue and that i had to send the card to psa).

so basically laid into him that he knew something fishy was transpiring and that he shoulda at least notified me that it was a probable fake instead of me waiting around on psa's verdict. his reply was that "he was hoping it was an isolated incident and that he was hoping for the best." completely wrong answer and excuse in my book.

he also stated that the bird/magic rookie was sent in as well however that it was legit. i have a call set up w/ joe o. on Monday afternoon and will inquire if there is any truth to this claim.

at this time, i do know that he did notify another unsuspecting buyer who has contacted me so it appears the negotiation tactics did work, but i still believe that it shouldn't have required a swift kick in the....

i am still working this to gauge and possibly gather any of the "consignees" contact info so that i can forward any info to psa/proper authorities.

at this point it's a delicate balance, but so far it seems he has at least notified 1 other seller after i told him to "wake the f up" and you need to notify any and everybody you sold these cards to...

whether or not joe can confirm if the bird/magic rc was legit will tell me all i need to know about whether this guy is in on it or simply a beautiful schmuck.

if he's in on it, may god help him....

[ksabet]

a few updates...

after texting w/ seller and entering into "aggressive" negotiations, it appears that he has notified other buyers of the issue. as it has come to my attention that the seller was notified that another card was a fake and i laid into him for not telling me that mine was fake. (i told him jan 26, there was a possible issue and that i had to send the card to psa).

so basically laid into him that he knew something fishy was transpiring and that he shoulda at least notified me that it was a probable fake instead of me waiting around on psa's verdict. his reply was that "he was hoping it was an isolated incident and that he was hoping for the best." completely wrong answer and excuse in my book.

he also stated that the bird/magic rookie was sent in as well however that it was legit. i have a call set up w/ joe o. on Monday afternoon and will inquire if there is any truth to this claim.

at this time, i do know that he did notify another unsuspecting buyer who has contacted me so it appears the negotiation tactics did work, but i still believe that it shouldn't have required a swift kick in the....

i am still working this to gauge and possibly gather any of the "consignees" contact info so that i can forward any info to psa/proper authorities.

at this point it's a delicate balance, but so far it seems he has at least notified 1 other seller after i told him to "wake the f up" and you need to notify any and everybody you sold these cards to...

whether or not joe can confirm if the bird/magic rc was legit will tell me all i need to know about whether this guy is in on it or simply a beautiful schmuck.

if he's in on it, may god help him....

I really don't think he is in on it but I could be wrong. I also bought from him years back and everything was legit. I also believe him to be on the Set Registry although I don't know his registry name or collecting interests.

His inventory is very high end and spans many TPGs. Most of it is newer stuff and he has plenty of five figure cards in BGS holders as well. Hope I am right although in todays collecting world I know better than to get my hopes up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

a few updates...

after texting w/ seller and entering into "aggressive" negotiations, it appears that he has notified other buyers of the issue. as it has come to my attention that the seller was notified that another card was a fake and i laid into him for not telling me that mine was fake. (i told him jan 26, there was a possible issue and that i had to send the card to psa).

so basically laid into him that he knew something fishy was transpiring and that he shoulda at least notified me that it was a probable fake instead of me waiting around on psa's verdict. his reply was that "he was hoping it was an isolated incident and that he was hoping for the best." completely wrong answer and excuse in my book.

he also stated that the bird/magic rookie was sent in as well however that it was legit. i have a call set up w/ joe o. on Monday afternoon and will inquire if there is any truth to this claim.

at this time, i do know that he did notify another unsuspecting buyer who has contacted me so it appears the negotiation tactics did work, but i still believe that it shouldn't have required a swift kick in the....

i am still working this to gauge and possibly gather any of the "consignees" contact info so that i can forward any info to psa/proper authorities.

at this point it's a delicate balance, but so far it seems he has at least notified 1 other seller after i told him to "wake the f up" and you need to notify any and everybody you sold these cards to...

whether or not joe can confirm if the bird/magic rc was legit will tell me all i need to know about whether this guy is in on it or simply a beautiful schmuck.

if he's in on it, may god help him....

I don't know if it's relevant to how PSA grades the 80 Topps but the perforations do not appear to me to be centered between the panels.

[Jdoggs]

begsu1013 did you post this scam warning on collectors universe sports card forum yet?

[RichardSimon]

card was 100% real. just "altered".

all they would give me.

take a solid 7, doctor her up a lil bit.

slip her into a very nicely tampered psa holder

insert a fake* flip

find a somewhat reliable ebay seller to take the consignment

and make $4K.



* the flip looked scary good as well. font was spot on. i did the flashlight test (no overlabel) and redlaser'd the barcode and it spit out the right cert number as well.

Wow!! And we all thought that autographs were the worst part of the collecting hobby :eek::eek:

[begsu1013]

begsu1013 did you post this scam warning on collectors universe sports card forum yet?

mr. alt,

no. my posting privileges were revoked for speaking my mind and certainly not embarrassed about it one bit.

for some reason i was never into gag orders, upgrades that didn't work, getting lied to about who was responsible for fixing the glitches or being told that i simply wasn't important enough to care about.

but that's just me. i'm also allergic to shark bites.

in a weird turn of events though, it worked out pretty well as i am not swirling the toilet bowl after the proverbial dump they took on ya'll. ; )

never did see that link in the $200,00K mantle thread that i asked for...

you run and dodge really well.

you should be glad.

[Jdoggs]

mr. alt,

no. my posting privileges were revoked for speaking my mind and certainly not embarrassed about it one bit.

for some reason i was never into gag orders, upgrades that didn't work, getting lied to about who was responsible for fixing the glitches or being told that i simply wasn't important enough to care about.

but that's just me. i'm also allergic to shark bites.

in a weird turn of events though, it worked out pretty well as i am not swirling the toilet bowl after the proverbial dump they took on ya'll. ; )

never did see that link in the $200,00K mantle thread that i asked for...

you run and dodge really well.

you should be glad.

That's unfortunate you got banned from Collectors universe sports forums. You could have warned people in that forum about how you got scammed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's unfortunate you got banned from Collectors universe sports forums. You could have warned people in that forum about how you got scammed.

How many minutes would that thread have lasted?

[begsu1013]

That's unfortunate you got banned from Collectors universe sports forums. You could have warned people in that forum about how you got scammed.

trust me, i've lost all sorts of sleep over it...

but kinda confused on how i got scammed?

amex credited me.

but please enlighten me w/ your masked and infinite wisdom....

(notice the deflection again on the link i requested)

and what's your name again, jdogg?

[Beastmode]

I doubt the distribution scheme is that simple, it probably has multiple levels, although I don't know.


So your saying this crime is a never-ending consignment? Everyone says he's consigning for someone else all the way down the line?

[Beastmode]

The authorities are aware of certain individuals who are acting as mules for the guy in Mexico who is resealing these holders. Have no idea why arrests have not been made. I understand that PSA is actively cooperating with the investigation but also keeping it very quiet. This is very much like the WIWAG scandal in 2002 where collectors were not being looked out for--just need to make sure the brand is protected. PSA feels the best way to do that is not call attention to the problem.

Interestingly, Joe's letter to Bob only addresses the holder, not the card. Would be nice if PSA also addressed the authentication of the card along with the holder next time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So your saying this crime is a never-ending consignment? Everyone says he's consigning for someone else all the way down the line?

Not necessarily. I am just guessing that like a drug cartel, there are enough intermediaries that the trail is going to be hard to trace back to the man even if someone gets caught.

[iowadoc77]

Not necessarily. I am just guessing that like a drug cartel, there are enough intermediaries that the trail is going to be hard to trace back to the man even if someone gets caught.

I agree with you Peter. Need to catch people like this but how many degrees of separation do we find? How long is the trail. But it sucks. And more of this crap is happening. Frustrating and discouraging

[botn]

Not necessarily. I am just guessing that like a drug cartel, there are enough intermediaries that the trail is going to be hard to trace back to the man even if someone gets caught.

I have been told by a few reliable sources that there are dealers who have talked with or had contact with the guy who is directly involved with the resealing. Would seem to me that an arrest would have been made if this were true. Dunno...

[Leon]

His registered name, per the rules, is Jas.on Che.ng. I have emailed and let him know I would like to have a chat on the phone at his earliest convenience. I have found it worthwhile to chat with our members for a couple minutes (on the phone) about their collecting focus while keeping the board as safe as it can be (within certain constraints).

ps...spoke with Jason on the phone this evening. Didn't sound like an alt...

mr. alt,

no. my posting privileges were revoked for speaking my mind and certainly not embarrassed about it one bit.

for some reason i was never into gag orders, upgrades that didn't work, getting lied to about who was responsible for fixing the glitches or being told that i simply wasn't important enough to care about.

but that's just me. i'm also allergic to shark bites.

in a weird turn of events though, it worked out pretty well as i am not swirling the toilet bowl after the proverbial dump they took on ya'll. ; )

never did see that link in the $200,00K mantle thread that i asked for...

you run and dodge really well.

you should be glad.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have been told by a few reliable sources that there are dealers who have talked with or had contact with the guy who is directly involved with the resealing. Would seem to me that an arrest would have been made if this were true. Dunno...

Maybe Sean Penn and that Mexican actress can arrange a meeting with him.

[Leon]

I spoke with the supposed mastermind several times. Try tracing/catching someone using some kind of magic jack phone who is based in Mexico but seems to be very mobile. I don't think it's a gimme..I really don't know what happened to that investigation in the end either. I understand one guy downstream got picked up on some kind of fraud charge but really don't know good details (or remember them). And all of that was a few years ago, or so. I presume if not stopped the culprit kept doing what he does...which is defrauding collectors using altered holders and cards.

I have been told by a few reliable sources that there are dealers who have talked with or had contact with the guy who is directly involved with the resealing. Would seem to me that an arrest would have been made if this were true. Dunno...

[dwinters]

I have always thought that psa holders should be designed to change colors after sonic bonding. If cracked, the sonic bonded area could then easily show significant damage. The flips should also include micro-print only visible with a 10x loupe. Psa needs to work harder than the us treasury to protect the consumer.

[botn]

I spoke with the supposed mastermind several times. Try tracing/catching someone using some kind of magic jack phone who is based in Mexico but seems to be very mobile. I don't think it's a gimme..I really don't know what happened to that investigation in the end either. I understand one guy downstream got picked up on some kind of fraud charge but really don't know good details (or remember them). And all of that was a few years ago, or so. I presume if not stopped the culprit kept doing what he does...which is defrauding collectors using altered holders and cards.

Well I have no idea about how the underworld works but there are currently dealers in the US who are tied to this guy while claiming total innocence. If this was important enough to national security magic jack phones or not, I suspect his operation would not be ramping up as it appears to be.

[conor912]

If high end cards keep fetching the ludicrous sums that they have been, then people will keep sending in their cards to get graded. As long as those two things keep happening, the scammers will keep scamming and PSA will continue to not care. Rinse, wash repeat. Ego, delusion and denial will keep this train running forever.

A while back, I realized it was cheaper to buy raw cards and, even if 75% are messed with, I'm still out less than if I bought one high grade slabbed card that turned out to be bogus.

[ullmandds]

Maybe Sean Penn and that Mexican actress can arrange a meeting with him.

haha...i think sean penn...and "the actress" have learned their lesson with el chapo!

[ashes13]

The color in the Russell rookie is way off

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-TOPPS-BILL-RUSSELL-RC-PSA-6-HOF-RARE-LOOKS-7-EASY-CARDREGISTRY-/391296073563?hash=item5b1b103f5b:g:rpcAAOSwA4dWIT9 r

ditto with a bunch of others. like the 57 Cousy--

The cards look strange, but perhaps his scanner is just changing the colors significantly. Scanner could be altering the image.
Also a number of other high end cards in PSA holders just look off, but perhaps its the scans.

[pokerplyr80]

If high end cards keep fetching the ludicrous sums that they have been, then people will keep sending in their cards to get graded. As long as those two things keep happening, the scammers will keep scamming and PSA will continue to not care. Rinse, wash repeat. Ego, delusion and denial will keep this train running forever.

A while back, I realized it was cheaper to buy raw cards and, even if 75% are messed with, I'm still out less than if I bought one high grade slabbed card that turned out to be bogus.

It appears Bob has shared a solution to this problem. Just send any high end card you buy for a reholder right away and pay with an Amex. You'll be out some shipping fees but that's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

This happened over a dozen years ago...http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63017. There are various versions of the what took place. PSA has their version of course but the resealing of holders is nothing new. Only thing about this latest run, most of which are tied to coming out of Mexico, is that it is much more high profile cards.

Exactly. I don't know the exact dates, but it took PSA around ten years to purportedly improve the holder to minimize this type of fraud. To take that long after the WIWAG scandal is a disgrace in my opinion.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I'm glad to hear the buyer was made right.

[Sophiedog]

Maybe it's time to go back and enjoy collecting cards like it was in the Pre-Grading Days. Going to shows or going on Ebay and buying raw cards and staying away from having to have the best cards available. Seems it would be more enjoyable not having to always second guess the card I just spent a thousand or two is altered or switched or a fake...etc. Any time there is big money involved someone will find a way to cheat.

[RichardSimon]

Exactly. I don't know the exact dates, but it took PSA around ten years to purportedly improve the holder to minimize this type of fraud. To take that long after the WIWAG scandal is a disgrace in my opinion.

Disgrace yes,,, but PSA could give two shi-- about that.

[botn]

Disgrace yes,,, but PSA could give two shi-- about that.

All about profits. The way they handled the WIWAG scandal demonstrated they only cared about their brand not the people who made the brand what it is. Nothing at all has changed since then. An argument could be made that they care even less now about protecting the collectors. Despite being well aware of the problem of holders being resealed they have been silent.

[begsu1013]

update:

edit: was asked to remove for a couple of days

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeap where there is smoke there is more smoke. The Orr doesn't look right at all, as I pointed out before the Bird Magic perforations are off center so maybe it was just a self-bumped 9.

[irv]

I'm just a small time collector, but this is great news! :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ2ZNCip9YM

[Peter_Spaeth]

Exactly. I don't know the exact dates, but it took PSA around ten years to purportedly improve the holder to minimize this type of fraud. To take that long after the WIWAG scandal is a disgrace in my opinion.

I would guess the scammer had a fair number of his concoctions reholdered already so even assuming one can't duplicate the new holder, there are other ways...

[begsu1013]

I'm just a small time collector, but this is great news! :)

irv,

please edit your post to remove my original post please in accordance w/ helping catch this guy.

[irv]

irv,

please edit your post to remove my original post please in accordance w/ helping catch this guy.

Done.

[begsu1013]

thank you sir.

[Joshchisox08]

This is pretty damned scary.

I'm sure this is going to be a really stupid question but, does a low end t206 collector (PSA1-4) have to worry about this?

Not exactly high end items but there's still money to be made there right? Again apologies for the dumb question but I'm being serious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is pretty damned scary.

I'm sure this is going to be a really stupid question but, does a low end t206 collector (PSA1-4) have to worry about this?

Not exactly high end items but there's still money to be made there right? Again apologies for the dumb question but I'm being serious.

Josh, very unlikely in my opinion. Not cost effective for the scammers. You could be dealing with some minor improvements by the more usual card doctor crowd, but not this stuff. Even at that pretty unlikely I would think.

[begsu1013]

have seen a few goudys in fake holders in the psa 4 - 5 range....

but I do feel bad for this guy.

it's apparent that they were the middle men in all of this.

ebays says they are officially off the hook as its been 30 days,

but as for who ends up holding the bag...

is it paypal or them?

feel really bad if it's them....

[Peter_Spaeth]

have seen a few goudys in fake holders in the psa 4 - 5 range....

but I do feel bad for this guy.

it's apparent that they were the middle men in all of this.

ebays says they are officially off the hook as its been 30 days,

but as for who ends up holding the bag...

is it paypal or them?

feel really bad if it's them....

If the guy was selling them sight unseen that should have been a major red flag. Not to mention wrong. See past threads on (ironically) Where They Ain't.

[begsu1013]

exactly, peter.

as soon as he told me that he never had them, i knew the rest were fake immediately.

I tried to convey that to him, but it was only met w/ insults, curse words and threats from him.

he did apologize today when he found out 4 other cards were fakes.

his wife is not happy.

[Tennis13]

Stupid question, but the casino industry is able to make "money" with chips that are basically counterfeit proof. The diamond industry engraves serial numbers on the diamonds. Is there not a better way? Like microchipping a case with the card? I mean, if I can find my iPad anywhere in the world, or scan a lost puppy to locate its home, can an industry leader not microchip the holder so it can be verified immediately? Like a digital fingerprint of some sort? Put this in their "premium pricing" grading model, and they increase profit margins overnight, no?

Obviously counterfeiters will be on the forefront, but doesnt a hologram and a sonic seal --whatever that is-- seem sorta 90s nostalgic?

[begsu1013]

but doesnt a hologram and a sonic seal --whatever that is-- seem sorta 90s nostalgic?

now that you put it so bluntly...it sure does.

especially the hologram part.

[4815162342]

The new holders are much better, no?

[ezez420]

There was a case in Colorado a couple of years ago. This old guy named Mayo M got caught up for selling the fake cards on craigslist. The ahole down in mexico advertises on CL looking for greedy people to sell his fake goods. Then greedy seller is caught holding the bag. He had a psa registry called the mayo macneil collection of serial numbers.

[begsu1013]

The new holders are much better, no?

apparently not considering the 52 mantle 8 that was noted....

I hadn't heard about it, but can anyone post pics?

i'd like to see the case in it's entirety if so...

[doug.goodman]

If I was PSA I would institute a team to tackle this issue...

That's a good idea



... before it damages their credibility and hurts the hobby irreparably.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Laughing out loud

Cough, cough.

[Tennis13]

Let's say they are motivated by money. I can think of three ways off the top of my head to turn your laughing -- and I have my strong opinions about CLCT as well -- into an even greater profit/growth industry for them.

I mean, the pricing models one could come up with to make money off their grading oligopoly is insane. The reason you laugh -- they are like an airline comany-- is because they are in an oligopolistic market. Near monopoly, perhaps.

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know. Let's assume they are able to focus on the business rather than the scurrying cockroaches coming out of the corners, the evolution of fraud is an evolution of profitability for an industry leader. They could change some sort of pricing models here, introduce a new technology and boom, growth and margins are manufactured overnight.

[botn]

apparently not considering the 52 mantle 8 that was noted....

I hadn't heard about it, but can anyone post pics?

i'd like to see the case in it's entirety if so...

Here ya go...

222973

[1952boyntoncollector]

Still no half grade fakes reported...POP is so low..good luck with a PSA 8.5 Mantle 1952 Topps with an owner registry..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's say they are motivated by money. I can think of three ways off the top of my head to turn your laughing -- and I have my strong opinions about CLCT as well -- into an even greater profit/growth industry for them.

I mean, the pricing models one could come up with to make money off their grading oligopoly is insane. The reason you laugh -- they are like an airline comany-- is because they are in an oligopolistic market. Near monopoly, perhaps.

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know. Let's assume they are able to focus on the business rather than the scurrying cockroaches coming out of the corners, the evolution of fraud is an evolution of profitability for an industry leader. They could change some sort of pricing models here, introduce a new technology and boom, growth and margins are manufactured overnight.

They already have an overwhelming market share. Where is the growth going to come from?

[Tennis13]

They already have an overwhelming market share. Where is the growth going to come from?

Without giving away a very easy business model secret, currently you send in a card -- whether it is 1990, 2000 or 2016 -- and they almost never touch it again.

Meanwhile, the end consumer is buying and trading authenticated slabs with sonic sealing and holograms. Sort of like running your PC on Windows 95, no? Or do people even use PCs anymore? Amazing how services/products can become obsolete so fast.....I do wonder if there is a business opportunity there.....(It's HUGE given the brand....and it would allow them to perhaps undo some prior wrongs).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps, although they have already hit up the "installed base" to use an analogy for half grades, and I suspect quite a number of folks have sent in cards for the newest generation of holder even if it isn't much of an improvement in terms of security. Not sure how many times you can go back to that well.

[Tennis13]

I suspect quite a number of folks have sent in cards for the newest generation of holder even if it isn't much of an improvement in terms of security.

Start by making it a "revolutionary improvement", use diamond, casino, jewelry and other industries with high fraud problems as a template, and invest $1 mln or $3 mln there, as opposed to burning that money on some online swap meet....but i digress......I do think the lack of security evolution is a big problem, but also a very reliable, recurring revenue generator for this business.

The hologram and sonic seal, based on this example, seems like it's not reliable anymore. And if I want to ensure my $1000 baseball card is legit, I am willing to pay a small premium for the revolutionary grading going forward. And if I need to sell one with the old holder, well, I sure do hope the hologram and the sonic seal are good enough.....or else......cha ching.

[begsu1013]

can see a tad of frosting in that top right hand corner of the mantle, so it maaaaay be a little bit securer, i guess.

it's certainly a lil more noticeable than what was on the one i purchased.

does anyone here know anything about the sonic welding process?

curious if you can re-weld a previous welded spot?

is the cloudy spot/corner from the case being cracked or is that simply some adhesive that has clouded up.

they used to just use krazy glue and it was extremely easy to spot...

if it's the adhesive, then they've gotten much better at concealing that part of it....

edit: imagining a mental picture of all these guys down in mehico setting up test runs w. all sorts of glue imported from all over the place

[r0ck8ott0m]

That's disturbing .... I guess my confusion would be that there isn't really a way to ever know that your card that you have in hand is the initial card that was graded unless you "re-submit" the already graded card? Because who ever was doing this scam are removing the card with a lesser of a grade card and we would never ever know because the serial number will always be correct..... This sucks. I buy a lot of graded cards from psa too. So why were you sending in the already graded mantle anyways? Just wondering.

[begsu1013]

condensed version from earlier:

was gonna send it in for a reholder, but then when I tried to add to the registry and the guy that owned the legit one said he still had it, psa sent me a label and asked to send it in on their dime.

here's your cue 1952boytoncollector... ; )

[doug.goodman]

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know.

No, actually, you do not.

[glynparson]

The holder was not even sealed. I find it more than a little coincidental an auction company owned by PSA's biggest rival was selling a terribly bad holdered Mantle. Everyone I have spoken to that saw the card in person said there is no way that it should have made it to Bill's catalog. They said it is nowhere near the quality of the older slabbed Mexico fakes.

[Joshchisox08]

Josh, very unlikely in my opinion. Not cost effective for the scammers. You could be dealing with some minor improvements by the more usual card doctor crowd, but not this stuff. Even at that pretty unlikely I would think.

That's pretty good then. Glad to hear that it is unlikely that someone would go to the lengths to do that to those cards.

I guess I can breathe a little easier ;)

[Peter_Spaeth]

The holder was not even sealed. I find it more than a little coincidental an auction company owned by PSA's biggest rival was selling a terribly bad holdered Mantle. Everyone I have spoken to that saw the card in person said there is no way that it should have made it to Bill's catalog. They said it is nowhere near the quality of the older slabbed Mexico fakes.

I don't understand the conspiracy theory here. It sounds to me like Bill just missed it.

[glynparson]

What I have been told by people with way more knowledge of the situation than either of us have. And I had no reason to believe I was being lied to at the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What I have been told by people with way more knowledge of the situation than either of us have. And I had no reason to believe I was being lied to at the time.

So what are your sources suggesting happened? Bill sees a bad half million dollar card, and Beckett tells him not to pull it so as to embarrass PSA?? Help me understand what Bill's affiliation with Beckett has to do with this?

[Leon]

I guess our guy in Mexico? (hi Copperfield) is still at it. Yes, he goes by Copperfield.
He interrupted my lunch pizza buffet to call me a little while ago. i had seen about 5 stupid looking calls (Magic jack, 5 numbers) on my cell and didn't know what it was, it was him.
He says he will never get caught as he is too good. I told him good for him, karma will catch up. He said he hasn't had bad karma and I said so what. At any rate, I guess he is still at it the way he was before. I ended our call as I was sitting in front of the restaurant talking to him and was really getting hungry. He is brash.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess our guy in Mexico? (hi Copperfield) is still at it. Yes, he goes by Copperfield.
He interrupted my lunch pizza buffet to call me a little while ago. i had seen about 5 stupid looking calls (Magic jack, 5 numbers) on my cell and didn't know what it was, it was him.
He says he will never get caught as he is too good. I told him good for him, karma will catch up. He said he hasn't had bad karma and I said so what. At any rate, I guess he is still at it the way he was before. I ended our call as I was sitting in front of the restaurant talking to him and was really getting hungry. He is brash.

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.

[Leon]

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.

I just hope he doesn't interrupt anymore lunches. I don't generally collect high grade so don't worry about his antics. High grade collectors should be aware. ......drum roll...no, Peter, I won't show it again. (for now :cool:)

[jburl]

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.
I find the imagery created by a "sheetload of money" very amusing.

[botn]

I just hope he doesn't interrupt anymore lunches. I don't generally collect high grade so don't worry about his antics. High grade collectors should be aware. ......drum roll...no, Peter, I won't show it again. (for now :cool:)

It is the prefect crime. Most of those buying will never know what they bought is likely an altered card in a resealed holder. No checks and balances at PSA at this point. Collectors have to fend for themselves. You can buy from reputable places but the 52 Mantle PSA 8 got by Goodwin and it was only by luck the card was identified and pulled from the auction. A near 500K disaster.

Come on Leon show the E90-1 Young one more time. Peter deserves it!

[steve B]

can see a tad of frosting in that top right hand corner of the mantle, so it maaaaay be a little bit securer, i guess.

it's certainly a lil more noticeable than what was on the one i purchased.

does anyone here know anything about the sonic welding process?

curious if you can re-weld a previous welded spot?

is the cloudy spot/corner from the case being cracked or is that simply some adhesive that has clouded up.

they used to just use krazy glue and it was extremely easy to spot...

if it's the adhesive, then they've gotten much better at concealing that part of it....

edit: imagining a mental picture of all these guys down in mehico setting up test runs w. all sorts of glue imported from all over the place

Here's some info.
Slabs are most likely polycarbonate (Lexan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_welding

Rewelding in a different fashion or even the same might be possible, but would be a bit of a challenge.

Assuming a take of 150K a month or better, there are very few technological hurdles you could put in the way that would be all that hard to defeat.
Even the treasury believes that counterfeit notes are available very soon after the release of the new designs.

Steve B

[mrcardfan]

Just read the entire thread all I can say OMG. I have some graded cards in the new PSA holders and I don't see how they can be tampered with . The older holders you can pop them open and reseal easy like that 67 mantle . But that 52 mantle 8 not sure those can be opened or resealed or tampered with.

[sportscardtheory]

This stuff is scary. Makes me want to stop buying any PSA cards and stick with "buy the card not the grade" only in BGS holders, which seem damn near fake-proof and tamper-proof. Seems like FAR less risk.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This stuff is scary. Makes me want to stop buying any PSA cards and stick with "buy the card not the grade" only in BGS holders, which seem damn near fake-proof and tamper-proof. Seems like FAR less risk.

If you think they can spot altered cards as well as PSA and SGC, go for it.

[Beastmode]

Just read the entire thread all I can say OMG. I have some graded cards in the new PSA holders and I don't see how they can be tampered with . The older holders you can pop them open and reseal easy like that 67 mantle . But that 52 mantle 8 not sure those can be opened or resealed or tampered with.

Seems to me there are differing scenarios of fraud here.

1.) cracking a PSA case, inserting a lesser grade card, then resealing the case; still same cert #, same authentic PSA label, same authentic PSA hologram
1.A). same thing above, but inserting a counterfeit card

2.) manufacturing a molded plastic case (the same as PSA's); grabbing the cert number from an existing high grade card, counterfeiting the PSA label, and inserting a lower grade card
2.A) same thing but inserting a counterfeit card

So yes, buying the card, not the holder resolves most of 1 and 2, but doesn't resolve 1A and 2A. Which gets back to my question I had earlier. Is PSA addressing the card when Bob sends back the resealed holders?

If this is an organized criminal enterprise, I would suspect it's a lot more efficient to manufacture a PSA case and copy flips, then to crack hundreds/thousands of cards and reseal. With the amount of time involved, I would assume the dollar value of these cards has be north of $1K.

[sportscardtheory]

If you think they can spot altered cards as well as PSA and SGC, go for it.

Clearly my point is that there is more trust that BGS didn't make a mistake on authenticity than with buying a PSA slab that could very well be completely fake and/or tampered-with. Find me one instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab and it will be the first I have ever seen/heard of.

These PSA horror stories have been ongoing for a long time now and PSA has done virtually nothing of any substance to prevent tampering/faking. I mean, holograms? Come on. To me, this doesn't bode well for their brand in general, and long-term it is due for a huge decrease as people start to realize their product is the most easily faked/tampered-with. How can you trust ANY PSA graded card when it's so easy to fake them and/or tamper with them.

My point stands. I would rather have an authentic card in a BGS holder than a PSA graded card that you have no idea whether it is real or fake/tampered with. I know BGS is an inferior TPG, but their slabs are 1,000x safer. I mean, what good is your grading reputation when the slabs you put them in can be faked and/or tampered with? It completely defeats the purpose and undermines the "sanctity" of the grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clearly my point is that there is more trust that BGS didn't make a mistake on authenticity than with buying a PSA slab, that could very well be completely fake and/or tampered-with. Find me one instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab and it will be the first I have ever seen/heard of.

These PSA horror stories have been ongoing for a long time now and PSA has done virtually nothing of any substance to prevent tampering/faking. I mean, holograms? Come on. To me, this doesn't bode well for their brand in general, and long-term it is due for a huge decrease as people start to realize their product is the most easily faked/tampered-with. How can you trust ANY PSA graded card when it's so easy to fake them and/or tamper with them.

My point stands. I would rather have an authentic card in a BGS holder than a PSA graded card that you have no idea whether it is real or fake/tampered with. I know BGS is an inferior TPG, but their slabs are 1,000x safer. I mean, what good is your grading reputation when the slabs you put them in can be faked and/or tampered with? It completely defeats the purpose and undermines the "sanctity" of the grade.

The best slab in the world is worthless to me if I think the company can't spot alterations reliably.

[sportscardtheory]

The best slab in the world is worthless to me if I think the company can't spot alterations reliably.

And I would rather have an authentic card in a tamper-proof and fake-proof slab than a completely fake slab or a slab that was tampered with. How many BGS slabs have been faked or tampered with? Zero??? How many for PSA? Thousands upon thousands of high dollar to mega-high dollar cards. PSA's slabs are a joke. How can anyone trust ANY high dollar PSA graded card as being legit. I mean, Christ. What would stop someone from buying a high-dollar PSA card, cracking the card out, putting in a lesser card and re-selling it, all the while retaining the original card that can also be regraded and resold at a later date. It's like doubling your money. All because PSA doesn't want to pony up for fake-proof/tamper-proof slabs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

And I would rather have an authentic card in a tamper-proof and fake-proof slab than a completely fake slab or a slab that was tampered with. How many BGS slabs have been faked or tampered with? Zero??? How many for PSA? Thousands upon thousands of high dollar to mega-high dollar cards. PSA's slabs are a joke. How can anyone trust ANY high dollar PSA graded card as being legit.

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

[sportscardtheory]

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

If you can bring yourself to deny that, we are done here.

P.S. Still waiting on that ONE instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab...

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you can bring yourself to deny that, we are done here.

P.S. Still waiting on that ONE instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab...

I'm not denying anything. I am sure this has been going on for some time, but I really have no idea about the volume. If you do, say what you know.

[sportscardtheory]

PSA is clearly the best TPG at actual grading, but if you can't trust whether or not any of their slabs are real or un-tampered-with, and you have to run in circles trying to authenticate the freaking slabs, what good is that grading reputation. Serious question. I mean, think about that. You have to jump through hoops to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. What good is a TPG if you have to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. I get that people want to protect their investments by defending PSA, but you better start caring about this issue because it's only getting worse, which WILL affect PSA's reputation in the future, which WILL affect the value of your PSA graded cards in the future. Take heed.

[sportscardtheory]

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1228405433/last-1228854943/Scary+PSA+Fakes+--+discussion+on+Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA is clearly the best TPG at actual grading, but if you can't trust whether or not any of their slabs are real or un-tampered-with, and you have to run in circles trying to authenticate the freaking slabs, what good is that grading reputation. Serious question. I mean, think about that. You have to jump through hoops to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. What good is a TPG if you have to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. I get that people want to protect their investments by defending PSA, but you better start caring about this issue because it's only getting worse, which WILL affect PSA's reputation in the future, which WILL affect the value of your PSA graded cards in the future. Take heed.

It's certainly a significant concern, I am with you there. What I don't know yet is whether the guy is an artist pulling off the occasional scam on a mega card, or whether he truly has flooded the market already, or somewhere in between.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1228405433/last-1228854943/Scary+PSA+Fakes+--+discussion+on+Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

I hope MW will comment. This came up not so long ago and it was his contention that the scammer is not using fake slabs but resealed ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1228405433/last-1228854943/Scary+PSA+Fakes+--+discussion+on+Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

Then why in your view hasn't the market taken a hit if this is a well known fact for years? Quite to the contrary, the mega cards are in an epic upswing, no?

[sportscardtheory]

It's certainly a significant concern, I am with you there. What I don't know yet is whether the guy is an artist pulling off the occasional scam on a mega card, or whether he truly has flooded the market already, or somewhere in between.

How can we ever truly know which PSA graded card is real and/or untampered with. This is my point. It's scary and the more I think of it, the less I want to put into PSA graded cards. I get that BGS kinda sucks as a grader, but at least their slabs can't be altered or faked. This isn't some non or minor issue, the integrity of PSA's entire brand is at stake and they aren't doing anything other than slight changes that can still be replicated by scam artists.

[sportscardtheory]

Then why in your view hasn't the market taken a hit if this is a well known fact for years? Quite to the contrary, the mega cards are in an epic upswing, no?

I have been talking about "future" in all my posts. The upswing you speak of is great for now, but what about when the severity of the problem starts to settle-in to mainstream hive-mind. You think it will always stay a non-mainstream issue? The day it becomes main-stream, this bubble will pop and there will be many left holding the bill. And it could all be avoided if PSA simply created a tamper-proof/fake-proof slab. I mean why wouldn't they want to protect their buyers? Isn't that the entire point of TPGs, to protect consumers? This issue seems to be the exact opposite of that. No protection whatsoever. No safety.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have been talking about "future" in all my posts. The upswing you speak of is great for now, but what about when the severity of the problem starts to settle-in to mainstream hive-mind. You think it will always stay a non-mainstream issue? The day it becomes main-stream, this bubble will pop and there will be many left holding the bill. And it could all be avoided if PSA simply created a tamper-proof/fake-proof slab.

PSA would also have to prevent bad cards from simply being reholdered. I am not sure what level of scrutiny cards have received to date which have been sent in for the new improved holder.

[sportscardtheory]

PSA would also have to prevent bad cards from simply being reholdered. I am not sure what level of scrutiny cards have received to date which have been sent in for the new improved holder.

Good point. Even more reason to be weary, IMO. Nothing is safe at this point. They should have had real slabs a long time ago.

[mrcardfan]

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

[4815162342]

How can we ever truly know which PSA graded card is real and/or untampered with. This is my point. It's scary and the more I think of it, the less I want to put into PSA graded cards. I get that BGS kinda sucks as a grader, but at least their slabs can't be altered or faked. This isn't some non or minor issue, the integrity of PSA's entire brand is at stake and they aren't doing anything other than slight changes that can still be replicated by scam artists.


How can we ever truly know that all of these so-called vintage cards weren't really created yesterday with a vintage press, using vintage ink on vintage cardboard? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're all living in the Matrix anyhow.

[sportscardtheory]

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

They may be harder to crack and reseal, but it seems like they could be faked, like the old slabs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

So explain the PSA 8 Mantle pulled down from Goodwin?

[bnorth]

How can we ever truly know that all of these so-called vintage cards weren't really created yesterday with a vintage press, using vintage ink on vintage cardboard? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're all living in the Matrix anyhow.

There are more of these vintage cards printed yesterday out there than cracked and resealed slabs.:(

[mrcardfan]

So explain the PSA 8 Mantle pulled down from Goodwin? maybe their was issue with the card a mistake by PSA only my guess. holder and card look good from the scan

[Beastmode]

I have been talking about "future" in all my posts. The upswing you speak of is great for now, but what about when the severity of the problem starts to settle-in to mainstream hive-mind. You think it will always stay a non-mainstream issue? The day it becomes main-stream, this bubble will pop and there will be many left holding the bill. And it could all be avoided if PSA simply created a tamper-proof/fake-proof slab. I mean why wouldn't they want to protect their buyers? Isn't that the entire point of TPGs, to protect consumers? This issue seems to be the exact opposite of that. No protection whatsoever. No safety.

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. However, your tone against PSA is ultra aggressive, and your tone for BGS is very supportive, which makes me question your neutrality in this matter. Please clear the air for me because I do enjoy reading your thoughts on this matter; are you in any way associated with BGS or any other TPG's?

[Peter_Spaeth]

maybe their was issue with the card a mistake by PSA only my guess. holder and card look good from the scan

No it was resealed.

[mrcardfan]

No it was resealed.

Wtf!! How in the world is that possible???

[sportscardtheory]

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. However, your tone against PSA is ultra aggressive, and your tone for BGS is very supportive, which makes me question your neutrality in this matter. Please clear the air for me because I do enjoy reading your thoughts on this matter; are you in any way associated with BGS or any other TPG's?

Heck no. I have no affiliation or association with anything or anyone but myself. I'm just an opinionated collector. The only reason I'm using BGS as an antithesis to PSA is because their slabs are basically the only ones on the market that are tamper-proof and fake-proof. To me, in the future, that will be MORE important than card grades. As I have stated, if the slab can be compromised (faked or resealed) in any way, what good is a grade at all. The aggression towards PSA is because they could have done something about this a decade or more ago when they first found that their slabs could be compromised. In the business of buyer protection/safety, you would think that un-compromisable slabs would be numero uno.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's all pretty ironic as the original impetus for third party grading, supposedly, was the rampant fraud in the 80s and early 90s.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It's all pretty ironic as the original impetus for third party grading, supposedly, was the rampant fraud in the 80s and early 90s.

the guy that consigned that PSA 8, if he paid 20k for the card from a guy on craigslist then its no shocker

[panamamyers]

Aren't we nearing an inevitable end to this hobby as we know it.
With 3d printers as they are, how long before people will be able to replicate any and every thing?
Who can't see a future in 25 years where a person can duplicate a 52 mantle that would have no physical differences whether it was real or 3d printed?

[Snapolit1]

I am sure the exact same sentiment was uttered by someone somewhere on March 3, 1956 . . .1966 . . . 1976 . . . 1986 . . . 1996 . . . and 2006.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I am sure the exact same sentiment was uttered by someone somewhere on March 3, 1956 . . .1966 . . . 1976 . . . 1986 . . . 1996 . . . and 2006.

right you can fake money too and casino chips, however each card having a Cert number does mean something...cant be two of the same and both be real..... several ways to combat fraud...my idea of an owner registry is one way but im sure there are other ways as well..

[Snapolit1]

When the federal government does away with paper money and coins I'll start to get concerned.

[Beastmode]

Aren't we nearing an inevitable end to this hobby as we know it.
With 3d printers as they are, how long before people will be able to replicate any and every thing?
Who can't see a future in 25 years where a person can duplicate a 52 mantle that would have no physical differences whether it was real or 3d printed?

Not quite. As the ability to replicate a vintage card gets better, the ability to authenticate a vintage card gets better. Forensic cardboard analysis is coming.

[Cardjunkie75]

As the owner of Cardregistry, I would like to take this opportunity to state that Mr. Robert Evans, the individual who posted this thread regarding “fake cards sold by Cardregistry” has very limited credibility on this issue. We sold him a 1967 Topps Mickey Mantle Card that we consigned for a consignor which turned out to be fraudulent.

Upon being informed by Mr. Evans that he sent the card to PSA to confirm its authenticity, we requested that he give us a little time to investigate the matter, and we would get back to him shortly. We were kind enough to provide him with our private number, and he continuously harassed us to receive a refund for approximately three days even before a claim was escalated to Paypal, and we have evidence to support this statement.

At the time he related this to us, we had not yet received any letter from him from PSA, and we weren’t going to take his word for it. Why would we? What if he was the person who tampered with the card? We clearly needed the letter in our possession, and we told him that he would receive a refund upon receipt of it and the Card. Rather than understanding the issue at hand, he posted this thread regarding Cardregistry. We needed to do more research and learn PayPal’s policies regarding an incident of this nature, and it wasn’t until after this conversation that we received the Notification Letter from PSA (Professional Sports Authenticators)

The letter stated, " the case, which is sonically sealed with a tamper-evident feature at our facility, has been broken along the edges of the case for the purpose of switching the card inside the holder. The perpetrator has attempted to reveal the holder back together, but the sonic weld is clearly violated," You can view the entire letter on this thread.

Bob Evans prematurely wrote this thread and stated facts that he knows very little about, such as the amount figure he claims has been sold as well as calling us "beautiful idiots."* The reason we requested the card be returned to us was to help aid in our investigation of this sale with PayPal and other parties accordingly. Cardregistry has been a retailer of Sports Cards for over 4 years now, and we have provided our clients with great quality and outstanding service, so to see this thread is very disturbing as well as unfortunate. The few people who purchased a card from this Consignor have been notified, and I assure you that all cards in our inventory are authentic, and we have a large quite impressive collection. In fact, we have received a letter from PSA’s Counsel that states we had “no direct involvement in the manipulation of the cards at issue or in intentionally or knowingly selling Fraudulent cards. Rather, it presently appears that Cardregistry was victimized by its consignor and others acting in concert with” the Consignor. It’s very unfortunate that Mr. Evans prematurely jumped to conclusions that could seriously hurt a business, and we will pursue every legal action for Defamation of Character and any damages incurred by the derogatory and false statements of any party. We apologize to all our clients for any inconvenience that this isolated incident which could have been solved privately may have caused, If anyone has any questions, please feel free to reach out. CARDREGISTRY, Inc. welcomes any inquiries, or concerns in regards to this matter, or any of our business practices, and we look forward to continue to be a Top Rated Ebay seller with zero negative feedback as well as a reputable retailer of Authentic Sports Cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It seems clear and I think Bob would agree that you did not intentionally sell bad cards, but is it true that you sold them without having them in hand? More importantly, what can you tell us about your consignor?

[bbcemporium]

Anthony,
Thank you for responding to this thread. Are you the same person with the ebay id cardregistry who made an offer on a card in my store last year? Apparently I didn't counter soon enough and received this message:

Dear bbcemporium,

hey big shot you want me to teach you how to counter?

- cardregistry

Upon receiving this message, I promptly denied the offer only to receive this:

Dear bbcemporium,

Wow you really are a big shot.
I wish I was as cool and tuff as you.

- cardregistry

I have to admit I was quite taken back by these messages, but given you are a reputable retailer of sportscards with great customer service, I'm assuming it is somebody else operating on Ebay with the id cardregistry?

[Beastmode]

It seems clear and I think Bob would agree that you did not intentionally sell bad cards, but is it true that you sold them without having them in hand? More importantly, what can you tell us about your consignor?

+1 I'm just about done with the "I only consign cards so it's not my fault" b.s. stories. Your selling fraudulent cards; if you can't back-up what your selling, get into another line of business.

Either rat out the consignor on this board with name/number, or your part of the problem. Which is it?

[begsu1013]

interesting side notes before i address:

ebay handle: cardregistry. you neither sold me a "card", nor could i register it. just had to point that out.
n54 handle: cardjunkie. take off the "ie" and it's more than appropriate. junk is all you sold me.

addressing your post:

pure comedy!


first off: is your name Anthony Muia or is it William Ikhilov, but prefers Vadim?

you figure out which name you prefer and let us know.

but let's dive right in....


the individual who posted this thread regarding “fake cards sold by Cardregistry” has very limited credibility on this issue.

the card you sold me was fake, correct?

credibility issue solved.

Upon being informed by Mr. Evans that he sent the card to PSA to confirm its authenticity, we requested that he give us a little time to investigate the matter, and we would get back to him shortly. We were kind enough to provide him with our private number, and he continuously harassed us to receive a refund for approximately three days even before a claim was escalated to Paypal, and we have evidence to support this statement.

give you more time once I had a psa letterhead telling you the card was a fake?

I did. I gave you 2 days to issue a refund. You did nothing.

gave me your private number?

AH-NO!

I got that from my paypal invoice. in fact I contacted your husband back in janurary about concerns.

his reply was "im hoping this is an isolated event and (listen to this one!) hoping for the best"

but get this, he still wired the guy the money after the initial eyebrow was raised.

At the time he related this to us, we had not yet received any letter from him from PSA, and we weren’t going to take his word for it. Why would we? What if he was the person who tampered with the card? We clearly needed the letter in our possession, and we told him that he would receive a refund upon receipt of it and the Card.

more lies.

you have the letter and you still didn't issue a refund. in fact, I went thru paypal and amex to get my money back.

proof to back this up should you refute any further.

Rather than understanding the issue at hand, he posted this thread regarding Cardregistry.

you are damn right I did. you sold $150K worth of fake sh!t. i have zero remorse and would do it again.

I even told you to notify everyone else you sold cards to and your husband stated "shut the f up, quit making me paranoid".

again, proof is in text messages and I will post should you decide to refute.


We needed to do more research and learn PayPal’s policies regarding an incident of this nature, and it wasn’t until after this conversation that we received the Notification Letter from PSA (Professional Sports Authenticators)

psa didn't send you that letter, I did. email to back this up should you decide to refute.

but again, where was the refund you promised once you had proof?

that's right, you didn't refund.

proof to post should you refute.

The letter stated, " the case, which is sonically sealed with a tamper-evident feature at our facility, has been broken along the edges of the case for the purpose of switching the card inside the holder. The perpetrator has attempted to reveal the holder back together, but the sonic weld is clearly violated," You can view the entire letter on this thread.

exactly.

the letter that is addressed to me, same letter in post 1 and the one I provided you.

Bob Evans prematurely wrote this thread and stated facts that he knows very little about, such as the amount figure he claims has been sold as well as calling us "beautiful idiots."*

premature? the thread led off w/ the letter.

in fact, I told your husband back in janurary that something wasn't right. didn't post a word about it.

as for beautiful idiots? 100%! your post is proving it, plus you guys consigned cards you didn't even have.


The reason we requested the card be returned to us was to help aid in our investigation of this sale with PayPal and other parties accordingly.

the card was returned to you on my fedex account w/ tracking number 775755486320 back on 3/1

(side note: I asked for your husbands name several times over for the fedex label. he repeatedly would not provide it. however, I was able to get it thru my own sleuth skills)

Cardregistry has been a retailer of Sports Cards for over 4 years now, and we have provided our clients with great quality and outstanding service, so to see this thread is very disturbing as well as unfortunate. The few people who purchased a card from this Consignor have been notified, and I assure you that all cards in our inventory are authentic, and we have a large quite impressive collection. In fact, we have received a letter from PSA’s Counsel that states we had “no direct involvement in the manipulation of the cards at issue or in intentionally or knowingly selling Fraudulent cards. Rather, it presently appears that Cardregistry was victimized by its consignor and others acting in concert with” the Consignor. It’s very unfortunate that Mr. Evans prematurely jumped to conclusions that could seriously hurt a business, and we will pursue every legal action for Defamation of Character and any damages incurred by the derogatory and false statements of any party. We apologize to all our clients for any inconvenience that this isolated incident which could have been solved privately may have caused, If anyone has any questions, please feel free to reach out. CARDREGISTRY, Inc. welcomes any inquiries, or concerns in regards to this matter, or any of our business practices, and we look forward to continue to be a Top Rated Ebay seller with zero negative feedback as well as a reputable retailer of Authentic Sports Cards.

fact of the matter is, you guys are crap.

you were told of a potential problem in janurary
you did nothing about it.
turns out you never even had the cards to begin with.
you still sent the guy $150K after you were warned.
you were advised by me to tell your other clients
you did nothing of the sort. replied w/ "hoping for the best"
you were provided proof that the card was fake.
you were given 2 days to make it right.
you did not refund me.
you psycho dialed me from blocked numbers repeatedly.
you consigned cards, expensive fn cards, w/o them in hand.
you have the audacity to call me and ask me to remove the thread.*
(I said "certainly not")
you come on here and spit nothing but lies and fabrications.


and on top of all of this, you decide to threaten me w legal action?

"i wish a mofo WOULD be in my seat"


again, I have all the proof in the world. most of which is already provided.

should you wish to be embarrassed further, i can post all of your husbands texts...

i don't want to, but i will...

nowhere in this thread, did i say you were knowingly involved. remember: beautiful idiot, not scammer.

best part is that I knew early in on the scam you were involved in simply from boards like this. you weren't the first to fall for this. you're just currently the last. the second your husband stated he never had the cards, I knew instantly. I even sent him a text (and I apologize ahead of time, leon) telling him to "wake the f@ck up, you are in the midst of a 6 figure scam". he was too damn hardheaded to listen. but because I knew and already had my money credited, I wasn't mad at all. I was generally trying to help you guys out in the beginning, but you guys wouldn't listen and in fact became very argumentative, so....it actually turned into fun for me. watching you continually crash and burn like this. it's like telling a 40 year old man (not a toddler) to not touch that stove because it's hot. but boy did you guys touch it alright. you got burned. bad. all while being advised not to. again, I was only trying to help you guys from day one.

you have no one to blame but yourself. taking on consigned cards w/o having them in hand! seriously?



so yes, i did say you guys were beautiful idiots.

facts concur this statement, but thanks for proving it yourself.

here's some more advice and i suggest you take it this time:

read your husband's text messages dating back to janurary 12th. i would be more than happy to post them if he deleted them.

best of luck and here's to "hoping for the best" for your future endeavors!

sincerely,

Bob Evans

* i did post the consignors name that your husband gave me, however you called me and asked me to remove it as not to hinder an ongoing investigation and i promptly did so. not only that, another member (irv) quoted this and i even sent him a request asking him to delete it. posts #92, 93.

proof to post should you re...yada, yada, yada.

[begsu1013]

sorry. after re-reading the repeated lies here, I've decided to embarrass you a lil more.

i replied above to Anthony's wife as that's who's been pyscho dialing me.

"Anthony" is his name that he uses for his ebay account, bbcemporium. I am not convinced that is his real name, yet. But that certainly is his tone.

however, the tone of this post is certainly that of his wife's and is why i replied responding to her.

furthermore:


and he continuously harassed us to receive a refund for approximately three days even before a claim was escalated to Paypal, and we have evidence to support this statement.

thank you for proving in your own words that i came to you first to do what was right 3 days* prior to filing my claim w/ paypal/amex. so, please...post your proof.

*actually i only gave them 2 days, but "harassed" is by far a stretch.

We apologize to all our clients for any inconvenience that this isolated incident which could have been solved privately

this most certainly was not an isolated incident. in fact i have the text where you told me they ALL were fake. everyone else here knows this scam too.

I even asked you to read the thread in it's entirety before you make a post. you'll see that several members already knew about the Mexican connection.

but sure, keep lying and say this one card outta the $150K you sold was an "isolated incident".

There are some smart fellows around here. Don't think they are buying that load of crap for a split second.



no proof needed. common sense should you refute. ha.

[dwinters]

Excellent work Bob in making them accountable and looking out for everyone else. We appreciate your actions.

[bxb]

delete

[thenextlevel]

Wow, cardregistry just got owned!

[1952boyntoncollector]

I still think 2 doubles and 2 homers should be celebrated more than a cycle

[bnorth]

I still think 2 doubles and 2 homers should be celebrated more than a cycle

It amazes me how greedy people are. Why else would you consign cards for someone and never actually see the cards. The chances of it not being a scam are slim and none. Doing so is as silly as the post I quoted.

[begsu1013]

update and apology.

I completely misstated the $150K figure.

in reviewing the text messages dated feb 26th, it appears the figure was only $125K-$150K.

so technically it might only be $125K.

edit: so sue me. ; )

[Peter_Spaeth]

Psycho dialing? Qu'est-ce que c'est? :D

[SyrNy1960]

It amazes me how greedy people are. Why else would you consign cards for someone and never actually see the cards.

I agree 100%! I'm also amazed how sellers fail to take full responsibility for themselves. Look, if the card was bad or tampered with, and it wasn't the sellers (as it was being consigned sight unseen), seller still takes on full responsibility (as I have always said auction houses should do). Seller should immediately refund the buyers money, then the seller battles it out wit the owner of the card. Buyer shouldn't have to wait for seller to recover their money first. It also amazes me how defensive sellers get in situations like this, where they should be more sympathetic and understanding towards the buyer.

[vintagetoppsguy]

It amazes me how greedy people are. Why else would you consign cards for someone and never actually see the cards.

Agreed. But some of them are just plain stupid too. If I had to guess, I would say it was 50-50.

[Cardjunkie75]

Anthony is the name that I created for this Forum, and It was created a few days ago. In your text to me this morning, you said, "lil less conversation, a lil more action please, " so thats exactly what I will do. You are an embarrassment.

[bnorth]

Anthony is the name that I created for this Forum, and It was created a few days ago. In your text to me this morning, you said, "lil less conversation, a lil more action please, " so thats exactly what I will do. You are an embarrassment.

So the name under your screen name if fake? If so what is your real name?

[begsu1013]

Anthony is the name that I created for this Forum, and It was created a few days ago. In your text to me this morning, you said, "lil less conversation, a lil more action please, " so thats exactly what I will do. You are an embarrassment.

so it's definitely the wife here, as presumed.

and admittedly supplying false information.

digging yourself deeper.

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/40947/10578531/well1.jpg

edit: and listen, you're pissed. i get it. you got scammed and you cant take it out on the consignor because he's a ghost.

i'm not gonna go back and forth w/ you like a couple of 10 year olds on an internet forum.

everything i stated was completely factual. if i can assist in any manner w/ the investigation, please lemme know.

[Leon]

So the name under your screen name if fake? If so what is your real name?

I can help a little. First of all this person will be banned immediately for violating the registration policy, ie.....no anonymity for registrations. When I called the 718 area code phone number they gave the female sounds young and said here name is Brenda (muffled) Ramos....or something like that. However, by giving a fake name it means it's likely they gave a fake number too. A lot of bad karma going on here....but this Cardjunkie75 is out of here....

[frankbmd]

Net54 has never been junkie-friendly.;)

[begsu1013]

In your text to me this morning, you said, "lil less conversation, a lil more action please, "

looking back, i shoulda quoted the other elvis song: "suspicious minds" *



* written by mark james, though.


anyways, might i ask that they have the rest of the day before banishment, leon. your forum, your rules and happy w/ whatever you decide. but i have been texting w/ william and i think he wants to retract his post/reply as i explained to him it's doing him no favors and he'd get a ton more respect and credibility for owning up to the fact.

in the end and what I've said from the start, i do not think they were knowingly involved. was it a dumb move, yes. we've all made them.

i cant imagine what my wife would be doing or saying knowing a nice lil $125k nest egg is gone.

honesty is the best policy and until this incident, they did have flawless feedback. somehow after all the threats and such, i still feel bad for them.

just asking that you give them til say 5:00pm to change the name per the rules and possibly show a lil remorse and hopefully accept some responsibility vs pointing a finger.

if not, no worries. at least i tried.

obviously it's your call and respect whatever decision you go with...

-Bob

[Leon]

If they want to send me their real name and real phone number via email, and I verify it, I will be glad to reinstate them. Otherwise, pure anonymity will not be allowed. And I am not taking sides, from my perusing this it looks like they probably got scammed too. However, there is no reason, imo, to have to be anonymous. Maybe they don't know how to be up front about stuff and they can learn from this?

looking back, i shoulda quoted the other elvis song: "suspicious minds" *



* written by mark james, though.


anyways, might i ask that they have the rest of the day before banishment, leon. your forum, your rules and happy w/ whatever you decide. but i have been texting w/ william and i think he wants to retract his post/reply as i explained to him it's doing him no favors and he'd get a ton more respect and credibility for owning up to the fact.

in the end and what I've said from the start, i do not think they were knowingly involved. was it a dumb move, yes. we've all made them.

i cant imagine what my wife would be doing or saying knowing a nice lil $125k nest egg is gone.

honesty is the best policy and until this incident, they did have flawless feedback. somehow after all the threats and such, i still feel bad for them.

just asking that you give them til say 5:00pm to change the name per the rules and possibly show a lil remorse and hopefully accept some responsibility vs pointing a finger.

if not, no worries. at least i tried.

obviously it's your call and respect whatever decision you go with...

-Bob

[begsu1013]

agreed.

rules is rules.

proper name is first and foremost.

i think that is only fair and thank you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guess that post backfired on him. :)

[begsu1013]

ok, screw'em.

given every opportunity and you just simply can't get an honest word outta either of them!

they keep begging me to remove the thread.

done, over it.

time for lunch.

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/40947/10578531/IMG_1006.jpg

[Leon]

For the record, as mentioned above, I have never spoken to these anonymously registered people, any of them, whomever they are. Since we are here, here is my back and for with them upon registration. I have nothing to hide, I barely care. :) But in reading it (from bottom to top is the chronological way) it is sort of creepy thinking people are posing, and having a conversation, as someone they aren't. At least to me it is. Oh well, whatever...LOL

ps..one other thing, emails are not generally allowed to be posted on the board for several reasons. In this case an exception was made due to their fraudulent registration. It's "Judge Judy's" America on the board. (I hope... at least in terms of common sense)



From: cardjunkie75@yahoo.com [mailto:cardjunkie75@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2016 3:03 PM
To: Leon Luckey <leonl@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Posts on your Forum

Cardjunkie75
Anthony Muia
(718) xxx x003

Thank you so much for your help. I'm new to this Forum thing !

All the best

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 8:13 AM, Leon Luckey <leonl@flash.net> wrote:

Yes
If you send back this info it will be the same as from the other email

USER ID
First and last name
Day time ph# (may be called to verify but kept private otherwise)

Thanks
LL

From: cardjunkie75@yahoo.com [mailto:cardjunkie75@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 11:23 PM
To: Leon Luckey <leonl@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Posts on your Forum

So aside from the registration link you have to click on in the email you first receive, there is a second with some info you need. Correct?

Thanks a bunch !

Nicole and Anthony Muia

On Friday, March 4, 2016 10:17 PM, Leon Luckey <leonl@flash.net> wrote:

You have to register then send back some info from an email you will get
LL

From: cardjunkie75@yahoo.com [mailto:cardjunkie75@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 8:50 PM
To: leon@net54baseball.com
Subject: Re: Posts on your Forum

I had an inquiry about your Forum. I'm new to this, and I haven't been able to create a post.
Is there any way you can help me? Thank you so much

Nicole


.

[thenextlevel]

This person seems like he/she has something to hide. A little over 2K in positive ebay feedback doesn't make me give him a pass on his possible involvement in a scam.

[pokerplyr80]

It seems like when your integrity is called into question and honest response would be the way to go. If you were really an innocent victim just admit what happened and move on. I certainly won't be buying from you after reading this without a better explanation and I am sure I'm not the only Net54 member who feels the same way.

[iwantitiwinit]

I see cardregistry is away until March 31 on ebay. Hmmm. Guessing it might be a bit longer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see cardregistry is away until March 31 on ebay. Hmmm. Guessing it might be a bit longer.

All expenses paid trip to Mexico? :D

[Leon]

I see cardregistry is away until March 31 on ebay. Hmmm. Guessing it might be a bit longer.

They aren't away from their computer :). Here is a message I received last night...He or she is going to let Joe O know of our forum. I am guessing he knows about it.

"I went on the Forum to reply that Paypal, Joe Orlando (President of PSA), and his attorney have ALL backed Cardregistry on this issue, and I'm scheduled to have a conversation with him shortly as he is on West Coast time. I'm actually going to notify him of this Forum to see what we can do to have this thread removed. I'm clearly not worried about Bob Evans as I have a successful business to run, and I don't have time to deal with an unstable individual. Our name has been cleared of any wrong doing, and it is very unprofessional as well as childish that you would block us from replying to these accusations. With that said, I will look at my options as soon as I speak to Joe's Counsel tonight to see what can be done about this silly situation. I am extremely professional unlike Mr. Robert Evans, and I will ensure that this matter is not forgotten.

Thank you, and have a great day. "





.

[thenextlevel]

They aren't away from their computer :). Here is a message I received last night...He or she is going to let Joe O know of our forum. I am guessing he knows about it.

"I went on the Forum to reply that Paypal, Joe Orlando (President of PSA), and his attorney have ALL backed Cardregistry on this issue, and I'm scheduled to have a conversation with him shortly as he is on West Coast time. I'm actually going to notify him of this Forum to see what we can do to have this thread removed. I'm clearly not worried about Bob Evans as I have a successful business to run, and I don't have time to deal with an unstable individual. Our name has been cleared of any wrong doing, and it is very unprofessional as well as childish that you would block us from replying to these accusations. With that said, I will look at my options as soon as I speak to Joe's Counsel tonight to see what can be done about this silly situation. I am extremely professional unlike Mr. Robert Evans, and I will ensure that this matter is not forgotten.

Thank you, and have a great day. "





.

Oh boy, I'd be shaking in my shoes. What a clown.

[Bliggity]

Yes, registering on this forum under a fake name is the height of professionalism.

[ALR-bishop]

"Sometimes you just have to march right in and demand all of your rights...even if you are not sure what your rights are....or who you are talking to....and when you leave, slam the door"---Jack Handey

[frankbmd]

If he was going to talk with Danny Daytona and Tommy Tampa as well, I would be worried. :eek::eek::eek:

[begsu1013]

i'm done w/ cardregistry.

they've proved their level of competence in a mere two posts.

moving on.

if joe o should happen to peruse this thread, here's a couple of things to possibly think about:

there are 2 levels of fees: $7 and $35.

what are the security measures in place on cards sent in solely for "reholders"?

when someone sends a card in for a reholder, does that guarantee authenticity as well?

naturally they send them in to transfer the cards from older style to the newer style...

but they also send them in for holders that have been dropped or cracked.

so i'm sure the reholdering guys have seen holders in every condition, but are they qualified in detecting cards that doctored/altered as well?

you can see where I am going w/ this....

just want to make sure there isn't a back door security breach that could/would need to be addressed.

while i understand the letter you sent out is probably preformatted and the particulars simply filled in, i did not see any compromised sonic welds or case obstructions. to put it bluntly: those holders were damn good!

not expecting a reply in any manner.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i'm done w/ cardregistry.

they've proved their level of competence in a mere two posts.

moving on.

if joe o should happen to peruse this thread, here's a couple of things to possibly think about:

there are 2 levels of fees: $7 and $35.

what are the security measures in place on cards sent in solely for "reholders"?

when someone sends a card in for a reholder, does that guarantee authenticity as well?

you can see where I am going w/ this....

just want to make sure there isn't a back door security breach that could/would need to be addressed.

while i understand the letter you sent out is probably preformatted and the particulars simply filled in, i did not see any compromised sonic welds or case obstructions. to put it bluntly: those holders were damn good!

not expecting a reply in any manner.


if everyone thinks tampered holders look good and only the experts at PSA can tell the difference, that does sound like a problem. Perhaps PSA can show more detail into how to tell the tampering is evident to people who arent experts..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob I am confused because in your first post you said it was a "typical resealment job" but now you are saying how good a job it was.

[begsu1013]

i did ask jackie (joe o's secretary) this question and to point out exactly where on the case it was compromised and she informed me that joe would only talk to the authorities or someone at one of my financial institutions in regards to getting my refund. she said he would not discuss the holder being comprised at all.

i wasn't inquiring to go on a witch hunt, rather looking to ascertain some knowledge on what exactly i should be looking for on these technologically advanced fakes so that i can know what to look for moving forward.

previous versions were fish in a barrel. with overlabels and flashlight tests, conflicting barcode scans vs. cert numbers, frosting here, cracking there, cloudy adhesive everywhere, etc.

this round of fakes were not. im still impressed.

[begsu1013]

Bob I am confused because in your first post you said it was a "typical resealment job" but now you are saying how good a job it was.

per the letter.

edit: but when asked where on the holder the resealment took place, i got "we cant tell you that". so that got me thinking about the reholder aspect and slipping one past the goalie.

[KingFisk]

Interesting, as I believe there is an Anthony Muia in Brooklyn who runs a successful tour business (Slice of Brooklyn) that has been on TV and has a great reputation up in these parts. Not sure if this has any relevance, just throwing it out there.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Perhaps PSA can show more detail into how to tell the tampering is evident to people who arent experts..

Great sense of humor :D

As if PSA really gave a crap. As was already said, they knew about re-sealed slabs over a decade ago, but only recently decided to improve their slab.

[begsu1013]

here are some full scans...

[SyrNy1960]

I was following this pretty well, but now am confused. Possible the holder wasn't tampered with?

[1952boyntoncollector]

still no half grade fakes yet..

[begsu1013]

i don't know. which is why i asked to be informed.

the orr and bird do have that small 1/8" of what could be considered "tampering" on the left side of the holder, but ive also seen similar marks along w/ spider cracks and things of that sort that come straight from psa.

but usually the compromised holders are near the top corner so they can diagonally insert flip and card in. how could you insert a flip where those 1/8" marks w/o cracking or cause frosting that is more damaging than what is seen.

but that montana. from the scans, i don't think id ever think twice...

edit: again, not witch hunting. just would like to get an answer for protection and to be on the look out.

hell, i'd be happy w/ a vid tutorial on the psa site.

walk us thru each fake, or example there of, on how they are being done...

"this month on spotting the fake..."

[frankbmd]

still no half grade fakes yet..

Authentic decimal points are tough to duplicate.;)

[sportscardtheory]

The best was when they said they were going to talk to Joe Orlando to have this thread removed. lol Leon must have got a nice laugh out of that.

[DeanH3]

still no half grade fakes yet..

Why would those be tougher to fake?

[pokerplyr80]

They aren't away from their computer :). Here is a message I received last night...He or she is going to let Joe O know of our forum. I am guessing he knows about it.

"I went on the Forum to reply that Paypal, Joe Orlando (President of PSA), and his attorney have ALL backed Cardregistry on this issue, and I'm scheduled to have a conversation with him shortly as he is on West Coast time. I'm actually going to notify him of this Forum to see what we can do to have this thread removed. I'm clearly not worried about Bob Evans as I have a successful business to run, and I don't have time to deal with an unstable individual. Our name has been cleared of any wrong doing, and it is very unprofessional as well as childish that you would block us from replying to these accusations. With that said, I will look at my options as soon as I speak to Joe's Counsel tonight to see what can be done about this silly situation. I am extremely professional unlike Mr. Robert Evans, and I will ensure that this matter is not forgotten.

Thank you, and have a great day. "





.

And all they have to do to respond to this thread that they're so worried about is provide their real name and phone number when they register? Seems like such a simple solution. The lack of common sense in some people amazes me.

[frankbmd]

This makes me wonder what name (professional alias) he is using in his discussions with Joe. Maybe he is going to comp Joe a tour of Brooklyn.:D

[KingFisk]

this makes me wonder what name (professional alias) he is using in his discussions with joe. Maybe he is going to comp joe a tour of brooklyn.:d

lol :)

[begsu1013]

ok, here is one last gem considering i'm the unstable one.

baffles me that they cant understand why i will only talk to them via text

or the fact that everything they send isn't being saved.


i have blocked 3 numbers from them at this point, but considering it's Friday...

here is another gem from a very professional anthony, i mean, william or is it vadim?

enjoy!

edit: removed image as to not offend anyone. but it was funny! ; )

[1952boyntoncollector]

ok, here is one last gem considering i'm the unstable one.

baffles me that they cant understand why i will only talk to them via text

or the fact that everything they send isn't being saved.


i have blocked 3 numbers from them at this point, but considering it's Friday...

here is another gem from a very professional anthony, i mean, william or is it vadim?

enjoy!


very professional..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Is it possible that they're not re-seal jobs? Is it possible that fake slabs and flips are being reproduced? Or is it even possible that real slabs are leaving PSA out the backdoor and being sold to the crooks. The pics you posted don't seem to show signs of tampering...and they have the PSA logo in the bottom right corner.

[begsu1013]

Is it possible that they're not re-seal jobs? Is it possible that fake slabs and flips are being reproduced? Or is it even possible that real slabs are leaving PSA out the backdoor and being sold to the crooks. The pics you posted don't seem to show signs of tampering...and they have the PSA logo in the bottom right corner.

that's why I was asking about authentication thru reholdering.

a reholder fee on $5K is $35.
a review fee is $500 - $700.

I can not imagine they are paying the guy that's reviewing cards @ $700 a pop, the same as the guy that is reholdering at $35 a pop.



people send in cards all the time to be reholdered because they've been dropped, cracked, etc.

are the guys "reholdering" proficient in spotting an altered card/holder?

ie. scammer cracks a case. inserts doctored card, but doesn't necessarily reseal or does a great reseal job and then sends it in to get reholdered?

or buy a few high dollar real cards and slip a doctored one in the bunch?

not saying this IS happening.

but is it possible to slip one past the goalie occasionally?

I was just trying to get an answer but was told that I wouldn't even be talked to by jackie* even though it says "if you would like to discuss w/ me, my number is..."

* side note: and i believe this to be the same jackie that mods the cu board

[irv]

just want to make sure there isn't a back door security breach that could/would need to be addressed.





that sort that come straight from psa.



Is it possible that they're not re-seal jobs? Is it possible that fake slabs and flips are being reproduced? Or is it even possible that real slabs are leaving PSA out the backdoor and being sold to the crooks.

Sounds like more than one thing is a definite possibility?

When Begsu stated, "that come straight from PSA" I immediately thought of a corrupt mailman or post office who might also be in on this?

Endless possibilities I suppose, but it seems more and more clear to me this a network or a collaboration with more than just a couple people. :confused:

[Leon]

I agree it was funny but was just a bit over the top for the forum to stay in the PG rated area....These folks are something.

ok, here is one last gem considering i'm the unstable one.

baffles me that they cant understand why i will only talk to them via text

or the fact that everything they send isn't being saved.


i have blocked 3 numbers from them at this point, but considering it's Friday...

here is another gem from a very professional anthony, i mean, william or is it vadim?

enjoy!

edit: removed image as to not offend anyone. but it was funny! ; )

[pokerplyr80]

that's why I was asking about authentication thru reholdering.

a reholder fee on $5K is $35.
a review fee is $500 - $700.

I can not imagine they are paying the guy that's reviewing cards @ $700 a pop, the same as the guy that is reholdering at $35 a pop.



people send in cards all the time to be reholdered because they've been dropped, cracked, etc.

are the guys "reholdering" proficient in spotting an altered card/holder?

ie. scammer cracks a case. inserts doctored card, but doesn't necessarily reseal or does a great reseal job and then sends it in to get reholdered?

or buy a few high dollar real cards and slip a doctored one in the bunch?

not saying this IS happening.

but is it possible to slip one past the goalie occasionally?

I was just trying to get an answer but was told that I wouldn't even be talked to by jackie* even though it says "if you would like to discuss w/ me, my number is..."

* side note: and i believe this to be the same jackie that mods the cu board

If that's possible it's a very scary thought. I would hope that even with a reholder someone at PSA would be able to tell if it was an original PSA holder that had not been tampered with or not.

It would be nice if we could get a direct answer from them on this issue but I doubt that will happen.

[ksabet]

Damn I missed the image...can we at least get a PG round about description? :D

[Bliggity]

Damn I missed the image...can we at least get a PG round about description? :D

He...umm...expressed a desire to make love to a certain part of Bob's body.

[gregr2]

He...umm...expressed a desire to make love to a certain part of Bob's body.

Nicely done Dan!! :p

[ksabet]

He...umm...expressed a desire to make love to a certain part of Bob's body.

Ha!

Nicely done Dan!! :p

Indeed!

[Beastmode]

that's why I was asking about authentication thru reholdering.

a reholder fee on $5K is $35.
a review fee is $500 - $700.

I can not imagine they are paying the guy that's reviewing cards @ $700 a pop, the same as the guy that is reholdering at $35 a pop.



people send in cards all the time to be reholdered because they've been dropped, cracked, etc.

are the guys "reholdering" proficient in spotting an altered card/holder?

ie. scammer cracks a case. inserts doctored card, but doesn't necessarily reseal or does a great reseal job and then sends it in to get reholdered?

or buy a few high dollar real cards and slip a doctored one in the bunch?

not saying this IS happening.

but is it possible to slip one past the goalie occasionally?

I was just trying to get an answer but was told that I wouldn't even be talked to by jackie* even though it says "if you would like to discuss w/ me, my number is..."

* side note: and i believe this to be the same jackie that mods the cu board


This topic needs more input. Does PSA review the card during a re-holdering or not? If PSA is not reviewing the card and just re-holdering, what prevents someone from sending in a PSA 9 cracked case, and inserting a PSA 8 in its' place to be "re-holdered"?

I'm not addressing someone inserting a counterfeit card during the re-holder process, just a lesser grade card.

Seems to me PSA needs to change their policy. The re-holder fee must include a verification of original card fee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Especially where the difference between a 9 and a 10 is mostly illusory anyhow, although the price tag is multiples different. Buy a 9, open it up, print a 10 label, reseal, and reholder.

[Sinker Slider]

The only time I sent in a cracked holder for a reholder, I got an email saying because the case was compromised the card would have to be reviewed for any damage and I was not guaranteed the same grade. I had to respond with an email acknowledging that before they would proceed.

[pokerplyr80]

This topic needs more input. Does PSA review the card during a re-holdering or not? If PSA is not reviewing the card and just re-holdering, what prevents someone from sending in a PSA 9 cracked case, and inserting a PSA 8 in its' place to be "re-holdered"?

I'm not addressing someone inserting a counterfeit card during the re-holder process, just a lesser grade card.

Seems to me PSA needs to change their policy. The re-holder fee must include a verification of original card fee.

I recently sent cards in for a reholder in person in long Beach and was told the cards are not reviewed as long as the holder is not compromised. How much scrutiny the holders get before they are cracked out is the bigger issue. Especially as Bob mentioned if someone sent in a few good ones along with one that had been cracked and resealed.

At least the grade isn't reviewed. I don't know if they inspect the card for authenticity.

[bnorth]

I recently sent cards in for a reholder in person in long Beach and was told the cards are not reviewed as long as the holder is not compromised. How much scrutiny the holders get before they are cracked out is the bigger issue. Especially as Bob mentioned if someone sent in a few good ones along with one that had been cracked and resealed.

At least the grade isn't reviewed. I don't know if they inspect the card for authenticity.

Maybe they can tell the resealed ones because they take more than 2 seconds to open.:) Seriously I would bet the resealed slabs are much harder to open.

[begsu1013]

got a call from denver police detective today requesting info on this.
super nice guy and an actual coin collector. he has dealt w/ some fraudulent psa holders previously,
so if anyone has any info on these guys or been the victim of a fake holder,
they are asked to please contact him.
as a collector himself,
he seems to hold sincere interest in this case!

email below:



Bob

The suspect’s name is Mayo McNeil, and another person claiming to be his grandson uses Matt McNeil.
Anything from them would be highly suspect.




http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/584/images/New311Lockup/EmailIcon.jpg

Peter J. Palombi, 85013| Detective
Denver Police Department | City and County of Denver
720.913.6062 Phone | 720.913.7027 Fax
peter.palombi@denvergov.org

[Peter_Spaeth]

To clarify, these are the guys whose cards were listed by cardregistry?

[Leon]

Just got off the phone with this detective hence the thread just started. Yes, it is a fake or altered holder issue, I believe...

got a call from denver police detective today requesting info on this.
super nice guy and an actual coin collector. he has dealt w/ some fraudulent psa holders previously,
so if anyone has any info on these guys or been the victim of a fake holder,
they are asked to please contact him.
as a collector himself,
he seems to hold sincere interest in this case!

email below:



Bob

The suspect’s name is Mayo McNeil, and another person claiming to be his grandson uses Matt McNeil.
Anything from them would be highly suspect.




http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/584/images/New311Lockup/EmailIcon.jpg

Peter J. Palombi, 85013| Detective
Denver Police Department | City and County of Denver
720.913.6062 Phone | 720.913.7027 Fax
peter.palombi@denvergov.org

[begsu1013]

To clarify, these are the guys whose cards were listed by cardregistry?

no.

these are the guy/guys that are possibly obtaining the fakes from mexico.
and have unloaded a few in the co area. apparently he is a 75 year old man and has had previous run ins w/ the detective.

for complete transparency, the guys at cardregistry were, indeed, on the hook for the $100K+ that was "sold" and was taken from their bank acct. but i think the total was $156Kish.

still go back and forth about feeling bad for them considering that amount.

[Peter_Spaeth]

no.

these are the guy/guys that are possibly obtaining the fakes from mexico.
and have unloaded a few in the co area. apparently he is a 75 year old man and has had previous run ins w/ the detective.

for complete transparency, the guys at cardregistry were, indeed, on the hook for the $100K+ that was "sold" and was taken from their bank acct. but i think the total was $156Kish.

still go back and forth about feeling bad for them considering that amount.

I am still confused, so what's their connection to cardregistry?

[begsu1013]

might be the consignor, i guess?

apparently cr had to file a IC3 complaint.

assuming it listed all the parties involved....

[begsu1013]

There was a case in Colorado a couple of years ago. This old guy named Mayo M got caught up for selling the fake cards on craigslist. The ahole down in mexico advertises on CL looking for greedy people to sell his fake goods. Then greedy seller is caught holding the bag. He had a psa registry called the mayo macneil collection of serial numbers.

from a quick search...

[Peter_Spaeth]

might be the consignor, i guess?

apparently cr had to file a IC3 complaint.

assuming it listed all the parties involved....

Right, that's what I asked and you said no.

[begsu1013]

simply because i don't know...

i am sure there are several hands and layers to this.

the name that was given to me by cardregistry as the consignor was not that name.

but could be on the paper trail/bank acct somewhere or something.

will probably never know for certainty.

[ezez420]

I am confused. Is that a$$hole Mayo still at it?

[begsu1013]

possibly.


certainly a person of interest apparently....


terrible if he is actually using his grandson, even in name capacity.

takes a real dirt bag to even associate his grandson in something like this.

[ezez420]

That would be great if that was his grandson. Well that a$$hole from Mexico is on this board as well. Goldbullion2000@gmail.com

He had another email he used also.

Lol

[Peter_Spaeth]

So there are some bad cards in Grandpa's attic eh?

[Leon]

That would be great if that was his grandson. Well that a$$hole from Mexico is on this board as well. Goldbullion2000@gmail.com

He had another email he used also.

Lol

Well if I know about the emails I can get rid of the associated id. Though it doesn't look like he used this one for board purposes since 2012. That user, prewarguy, is banned now though.

[begsu1013]

did i miss something?

who is prewarguy?

[Leon]

did i miss something?

who is prewarguy?

He is the guy registered on this board, from Mexico (probably), making/altering cases and giving PSA fits. He is brazen and was registered as prewarguy on this board since 2012. But now he is banned under that id.....No doubt he probably has another but we take them as we get 'em.. He will have his day and I have told him that recently (as I stated not long ago)......LL

[Pilot172000]

I appreciate the integrity of this board. You guys protect your own and the hobby. Well done.

[egbeachley]

I still can't believe that Cardregistry paid the consignor so soon after the auctions ended. They didn't even consider the buyers have 30 days (or is it 45 days) to return per ebay policy. Even if the cards were legit, buyers remorse could have caused a return and then it resells for less. So incredibly dumb.

[TheEvilDoc]

First post here, found this thread in a Google search of Mayo McNeil. I was scammed by Mayo about a year ago for a PSA 9 Jordan and PSA 9 Reggie Jackson RC. I awnsered a craigslist ad in Denver for a PSA 9 Jordan just before my son was born, looking to put an iconic card away for him to have one day. Like an idiot I bought the case and not the card, checking the PSA number, barcode, light through the flip, no frosting on the case, pretty much all the things to look for when trying to spot a fake PSA case. I completely disregarded the fact it was a fake Jordan! I was invited to Mayo's apartment and did not feel anything "off" and I consider myself to be fairly street smart and proficient in reading character. 2k down the drain. This card was put aside for my son and I never had the intention of moving it.
So fast forward 2-3 months and I get a phone call from Mayo again. I engage not suspecting anything off from the Jordan that is vaulted for the kids futures for he tells me about a Reggie Jackson rookie he has available. PSA 9 and he wants 4K for it. A little research shows me its a good deal and we agree on a price of $3600. Flip checked out, barcode checked out, everything the same as before. While I was checking out the Reggie rc Mayo showed me a few other things he had for sale, I now know all were fakes. PSA 10 Ricky Henderson RC, Dimitri Young PSA 10 Robin Yount RC, PSA 9 1971 topps Nolan Ryan and Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson autographed Brooklyn Dodgers game program, Christy Mathewson autographed ball, and so much more. I was able to snap a photo of a majority of the cards described here!
At this point I mailed the Reggie to Rick with Probstein123 for an auction. I figured that he had the customer base and following on eBay to make more than his consignment rates making it as profitable move as possible. Well I shipped it to Rick and got a call a couple days later. He could not auction the card for me due to suspicion that the card was trimmed. I was floored. He took it to a friend who worked with SGC and confirmed his suspicion. I was also iformed that I could jam my thumb nail in the crack of a fraudulent case and it could crack and whiten, though the Reggie could not be cracked that way. (I immediately tried the Jordan and it cracked right open with a thumbnail!) He mailed it back to me and I got it the same weekend of a local show. When I went to the show I went right to the best known vintage dealer and asked his opinion, he asked if I got it from a guy named mayo McNeil and informed me that he has been doing this for a while. I was put in touch with Det. Palombi (sp?) and essentially told that since I was taken in Aurora not Denver he could not help unless an Aurora cop opened a case and then they could colab on the case. So! Be careful out there, I keep a Reggie and Jordan PSA around to remind me I can't be too overprotective of my money.
Another frustrating part of the situation was trying to get any info out of PSA security about what was going on, I was basically told the cards were fine and legit maybe Rick changed his mind for some other reason. (Yeah, right Rick is here to consign things and isn't likely to turn away money for no reason.) But if I wanted to send them in for a second opinion I could. Being 2015 at the time I took to asking Joe Orlando for help on Twitter. He blocked me 45 minutes later. I'll update this soon, and figure out how to add pics, I just typed this all on a mobile!

Jon Scanlon