Was Cobb really as people perceive him???

[Joshchisox08]

This probably has been discussed at great length in the past. However with the release of a newer book last summer basically more or less proving that Stump and Charles Alexander did a hatchet job to Cobb's legacy through zero details in most circumstances:

Hotel worker (no evidence of being black)
Grocery clerk (evidence pointed to being white in a report with ethnicity marked "W")
The fact that other superstar players got into fights with fans as well; Nap Lajoie, Cy Young, and of all people "The Christian Gentleman" punched a fan as well.

And just a hell of a lot more than that. Often showing Navin's letters which helped mold the Cobb bad-guy, bigotry.

I was wondering if any of you had read the book and has it changed your opinion(s)???

http://www.amazon.com/Ty-Cobb-Terrible-Charles-Leerhsen/dp/1451645767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455202323&sr=8-1&keywords=ty+cobb

[ullmandds]

from all i have read about cobb...he was raised in a middle class family...was educated and was uber competitive. I think his racism and "brutal" demeanor has been overstated in the past. He "fought" to win...every day of his life...and I don't think he was more racist than many back in those days.

[packs]

He was actually far less racist than many back in those days. He purposely bought up tracks of land in Georgia, had them developed, and then sold housing for practically nothing to African American residents. He gave one family a house just to watch over things for him. The land was called Booker T. Washington Heights.

Here's a quote from Cobb. It is 1952 and a reporter has asked him about Jackie Robinson playing in the majors:

"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”

[bbcard1]

He was a complicated man and it is often easy to judge people too harshly using a 2016 filter to view 1920 events.

[packs]

I think a person's character and ability to feel compassion for people is something that doesn't change no matter the era or circumstances.

[trdcrdkid]

There was another bio of Cobb published last year, Tim Hornbaker's "War on the Basepaths: The Definitive Biography of Ty Cobb":

http://www.amazon.com/War-Basepaths-Definitive-Biography-Cobb/dp/161321765X/

Like Leerhsen, Hornbaker takes a revisionist view in arguing that Cobb was not the horrible monster he's traditionally been depicted as (and he also slams Al Stump for his distortions), but he is less willing than Leerhsen to excuse or explain away Cobb's racism. He basically says that Cobb was certainly a racist by our modern standards, but essentially all Southern white people of that era were, and Cobb wasn't as bad as many, and wasn't nearly as bad as most people (especially Stump) have depicted him.

[Joshchisox08]

There was another bio of Cobb published last year, Tim Hornbaker's "War on the Basepaths: The Definitive Biography of Ty Cobb":

http://www.amazon.com/War-Basepaths-Definitive-Biography-Cobb/dp/161321765X/

Like Leerhsen, Hornbaker takes a revisionist view in arguing that Cobb was not the horrible monster he's traditionally been depicted as (and he also slams Al Stump for his distortions), but he is less willing than Leerhsen to excuse or explain away Cobb's racism. He basically says that Cobb was certainly a racist by our modern standards, but essentially all Southern white people of that era were, and Cobb wasn't as bad as many, and wasn't nearly as bad as most people (especially Stump) have depicted him.


Dave, I think they came out on the same day! I was going to get that one as well but I got the latter. I think I will pick this one up as well. I've read almost any bio on Cobb there is to this point might as well read this one too !!! Thanks for reminding me about that one :cool:

[Runscott]

He was a complicated man and it is often easy to judge people too harshly using a 2016 filter to view 1920 events.

Fortunately there are first-hand accounts available, such as interviews with his peers;e.g-Sam Crawford, in 'The Glory of Their Times'. There are also newspaper accounts of his behavior, so you can compare those with accounts of the behavior of other Southern baseball players to get a better idea as to whether or not his biographers were lying about him.

[bbcard1]

His late life effort at redemption and generosity paints a contrast to much of his playing days. Probably as financially farsighted as any athlete ever indicating an intellect in stark contrast to the brawler. Certainly not all that popular with his peers, which is a reliable indicator or, if nothing else, how likely you would be to enjoy having him as a guest at your dinner party.

[Hankphenom]

Fortunately there are first-hand accounts available, such as interviews with his peers;e.g-Sam Crawford, in 'The Glory of Their Times'. There are also newspaper accounts of his behavior, so you can compare those with accounts of the behavior of other Southern baseball players to get a better idea as to whether or not his biographers were lying about him.

And listening to the voices of Crawford and Davy Jones, who had seen him close up for many years, on the audio set of GOTT gives you an even better idea of what they thought of him, with stories to illustrate. On the other hand, there are others who had great respect, and in some instances affection, for Cobb. Joe Wood, for instance, called Cobb one of his very best friends. Perhaps it's fair to say that his good side could be very good while his bad side could be very bad.

[Joshchisox08]

And listening to the voices of Crawford and Davy Jones, who had seen him close up for many years, on the audio set of GOTT gives you an even better idea of what they thought of him, with stories to illustrate. On the other hand, there are others who had great respect, and in some instances affection, for Cobb. Joe Wood, for instance, called Cobb one of his very best friends. Perhaps it's fair to say that his good side could be very good while his bad side could be very bad.

Interesting idea. One side taken by the other was that the reason that Crawford didn't appear to like Cobb was out of spite/jealousy. Merely he stole the spotlight as the star outfielder on the team. And of course his contract being much bigger allegedly irked Crawford into jealousy as well.

The interesting thing is story goes that Cobb fought arm and leg for Crawford to be inducted into the HOF.

I remember in one chapter which it states that "THE BIG TRAIN" was a regular friend of Ty's along with another player (not on Detroit) whom I forgot. Wild Bill Donovan was one of his teammates which I remember seemed to have stuck up for him quite a bit.

TY vs The Babe................... There was a couple letters in the book which Cobb spoke very highly of him. I'm not doubting there was probably tension but I doubt that he had zero respect nor as the Tommy Lee Jones movie went gave him only credit for "Running ok for a fat man".

[ullmandds]

There is a whole book about the relationship of babe and ty and their golfing escapades and relations in the 30s and 40s and it paints a very different picture than that quote quote. You have not already read it I would highly recommend it .

Interesting idea. One side taken by the other was that the reason that Crawford didn't appear to like Cobb was out of spite/jealousy. Merely he stole the spotlight as the star outfielder on the team. And of course his contract being much bigger allegedly irked Crawford into jealousy as well.

The interesting thing is story goes that Cobb fought arm and leg for Crawford to be inducted into the HOF.

I remember in one chapter which it states that "THE BIG TRAIN" was a regular friend of Ty's along with another player (not on Detroit) whom I forgot. Wild Bill Donovan was one of his teammates which I remember seemed to have stuck up for him quite a bit.

TY vs The Babe................... There was a couple letters in the book which Cobb spoke very highly of him. I'm not doubting there was probably tension but I doubt that he had zero respect nor as the Tommy Lee Jones movie went gave him only credit for "Running ok for a fat man".

[tedzan]

TY AND THE BABE, by Tom Stanton


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bookcobbandruth.jpg

This is a tremendous book about these two BB greats and their rivalry. Stanton provides a much fairer rendering on Ty Cobb than other books.
It's a must read. Included in the Appendix is the head-to-head account of every game (200+)....that Cobb and Ruth faced each other.


Look guys,
When Cobb entered the Major Leagues in the Summer of 1905, many areas of this country were figuratively still "fighting" the Civil War....and,
Mr. Cobb was from the "deep South". Combine that with the fact that he was a feisty dude.....you have a rough character in Cobb's early years.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Cobb, but this is how he coped with the situation that confronted him back then.

Post Script
Check-this-out....you T206 guys: Less than 10 % of the 389 players in the T206 set were born in the Deep South.


TED Z
.

[Joshchisox08]

Pete and Ted

Have not read that book but as I have only a couple chapters left in the book I mentioned in post #1. I will be looking for another one!

[Yoda]

I believe that Cobb's father getting blown away by his mother with a shotgun climbing in a bedroom window under mysterious circumstances deeply affected Ty his whole life and contributed to his brutal competitive nature, as in always trying to prove himself over and over to his dead father. Stump makes a big point of this in his book.

[esd10]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess04.html&ved=0ahUKEwioh96NyvDKAhXKaT4KHcseAqoQFghkMBI&usg=AFQjCNEe-MSNMk69-BCJkEwEvtGU4QE03g&sig2=clMxxdtmB-b9uLE9OjdwlA read this

[ALR-bishop]

I never met Cobb and neither did my wife, but her grandfather and Cobb got to be good friends for the reasons mentioned below. Cobb was one of his pallbearers. Her grandfather liked Cobb so much he wanted to name my wife's dad Tyrus. My wife's Grandmother disliked him so much she threatened divorce if he did, so they named him Charles instead. :)

I guess that is the way with most of us, some like us, some do not

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img116.jpg

[Bob Lemke]

I'm currently reading microfilm of back issues of The Sporting News from early 1962, about six months after Cobb's death. TSN and countless writers, including former contemporaries, were avid in their defense of Cobb as having been maligned by Stump in one (or possibly a series of) magazine articles published after Cobb's death.

Many of the accounts I've read in TSN from the 1940s-1962 have convinced me that Cobb was not really the ogre that he had been painted to be.

[DeanH3]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess04.html&ved=0ahUKEwioh96NyvDKAhXKaT4KHcseAqoQFghkMBI&usg=AFQjCNEe-MSNMk69-BCJkEwEvtGU4QE03g&sig2=clMxxdtmB-b9uLE9OjdwlA read this

Thanks for posting this. I have not seen it before and is a good read.

[irishdenny]

I've read almost any bio on Cobb there is to this point might as well read this one too !!!

Hey There Josh...
Mr. Cobb has Always had an Intriguing Personality.
The Good and Bad, the two of me!
Aren't we all Subject to our environment?
Fir me the Man Seemed to have grown into a Gentlemen in his later life!
Bein "Mr. Charlie Hustle"(times Ten) in c1910ish, so ta Speak, along wit carryin a Tragic Youthful family event would lead anyone of us inta behavior that would, when looked back upon, cause us ta have some regret.

I know that You as the OP have asked fir others opinions...
However, it seems ta me that wit all of your due diligents inta Mr. Cobbs Life...
I fir one would Love ta hear Your Opinion of the Man.
So when You find the time.

Also, as bein an avid Matty fan...
I've Never Run Across this Story of "The Christian Gentleman" punching a fan,
Musta missed that one in its entirety. Or maybe I just firgot :)

Can You Point me and others wishin ta know about the Event,
where you came across this Story!?

Love ta read about it!

Thank You Kindly my Friend...

[gabrinus]

There was another bio of Cobb published last year, Tim Hornbaker's "War on the Basepaths: The Definitive Biography of Ty Cobb":

http://www.amazon.com/War-Basepaths-Definitive-Biography-Cobb/dp/161321765X/

Like Leerhsen, Hornbaker takes a revisionist view in arguing that Cobb was not the horrible monster he's traditionally been depicted as (and he also slams Al Stump for his distortions), but he is less willing than Leerhsen to excuse or explain away Cobb's racism. He basically says that Cobb was certainly a racist by our modern standards, but essentially all Southern white people of that era were, and Cobb wasn't as bad as many, and wasn't nearly as bad as most people (especially Stump) have depicted him.

Thank God no Northerners of that time were racist......

[CMIZ5290]

Stump's book was somewhat out of bounds pertaining Cobb in my opinion. Yes, he would fight you at the drop of a hat, but he also had a tremendous upside pertaining charities and fellow players that he really cared about. I have a distant relative that was a HOFer, and he told my father how generous Cobb was with his money, and how he supported some of his baseball friends (one being HOFer Mickey Cochrane). Having said that, a ton of players hated him. He would slide into you trying to steal a base or break up a double play. I don't think to this day that he was a racist, but he did sometimes appear that way because of his Georgia roots and the way he was depicted . If I'm not mistaken, he had a personal housekeeper in Nevada that he left a ton of money to when he died....

[Joshchisox08]

Hey There Josh...
Mr. Cobb has Always had an Intriguing Personality.
The Good and Bad, the two of me!
Aren't we all Subject to our environment?
Fir me the Man Seemed to have grown into a Gentlemen in his later life!
Bein "Mr. Charlie Hustle"(times Ten) in c1910ish, so ta Speak, along wit carryin a Tragic Youthful family event would lead anyone of us inta behavior that would, when looked back upon, cause us ta have some regret.

I know that You as the OP have asked fir others opinions...
However, it seems ta me that wit all of your due diligents inta Mr. Cobbs Life...
I fir one would Love ta hear Your Opinion of the Man.
So when You find the time.

Also, as bein an avid Matty fan...
I've Never Run Across this Story of "The Christian Gentleman" punching a fan,
Musta missed that one in its entirety. Or maybe I just firgot :)

Can You Point me and others wishin ta know about the Event,
where you came across this Story!?

Love ta read about it!

Thank You Kindly my Friend...

Well Denny to be honest I had thought (for the most part) as most people had until I started reading this new book.

It points out plenty of information that simply was said to have been true but is not.

Sure he had "spiked" other players but it was known in those days and for his opponents for that matter that the base paths were his and the other runners. The famous HR Baker spiking was blown well out of proportion which Baker admitted himself.

The Hotel dude had no indication as the author states of being black. Back in those days it was common to blow up a story or just flat out (if involving a black person) to use an ethnic slur in the paper. NONE of the papers from that indecent included such.

The Meat Cutter at the grocery store was also said to have been black which of course he was not. In the police report or whatever report it was of the grocery worker a designation of "W" was placed next to his name. Again not an ethnic slur in the paper about that person as well.

It was known that he had a black bat boy for about 7 years at one point. The bat-boy was looked after under his watch. Often Cobb supposedly let the bat-boy room with him when he was denied anywhere else to sleep, and made sure that he was fed.

These are just a few of the stories in the book that have proved Stump and Alexander's stories to be total BS. The author also said that he wrote to Alexander about the hotel incident and asked how he knew that the worker was black. Alexander replied that he had no concrete evidence and wrote it anyway.

Perhaps he was disliked because he went hard on the base paths and he took the game more serious than others. Perhaps Crawford was jealous that he took his spot light and got paid significantly better than him.

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

To use an analogy of similar proportions. Those who knew about Lemmy Kilmister being accused of being a Nazi simply because he wore Nazi suites. He stated that if the Israeli army had the best looking uniforms he would have worn those. He was the worst Nazi ever for having black girlfriends. Cobb was no more a racist than Lemmy was a Nazi.

P.S. "The Christian Gentleman" was a part in the book which the other was making a point after the incident with the NY heckler, that he was far from the only player to have gotten into a scuff with a fan in the stands. The other named a couple players and didn't go into detail about any of them and at the end of the list mentioned Matty socking someone in the face.

That fan in particular was allegedly at all 3 or 4 games that series between the Tigers and Yanks. He was asked by Ty to stop the heckling. Ty even went into the Yankees dugout to ask that the fan be removed. I think it was the last game of the series and the fan had already started heckling him during batting practice. Just goes to show that it wasn't exactly like the fan was there said one thing at one game and the rest is history. There was a bit more back story to that incident.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I have read just about everything printed on Cobb over the years and have listened or read countless SABR debates on the quality of the man.

The new book by Leerhsen is very enjoyable and has a ton of revisionist" theories that are fun. The truth lies somewhere in between Stump's outrageous silliness (which should not even be considered as research) and Leerhsen's new book. Neither hit it on the head.

As for Charles Alexander's tome, it is first rate in every way. Mr. Alexander is one of the finest baseball historians in the country. John Thorn often refers to this book and I do not question Mr. Thorn.

Cobb was a tremendous player and at times showed a kind and generous side and at other times showed no signs of personal self control. It appears he suffered from much of the trauma of his early life and at times a rage took control of him that he had no way of stopping.

Mr. Leerhsen's research often refers to general comments and not fact. As for the quotes from former teammates like Crawford, Sam made them when Ty was still playing and no one debated them at that time? Crawford had little ego ad actually preferred to stay out of the lime light so I doubt jealousy played a role.

With all this said I enjoyed the new book and encourage people to read but not to forget all the time and research put into a dozen earlier books save Stump's worthless treatment.

[packs]

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

[byrone]

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

In my opinion it's Crawford that comes off as "Cobb"esque in GOTT. Seems he had a really tough time adapting to life after baseball. and seems a cantankerous old soul

[Bpm0014]

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

Cobb was Irish?? I like him even more now!

[Joshchisox08]

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

Cobb was Irish?? I like him even more now!


Aye Brendan, aye he was ;)

[Runscott]

You can't read Glory of Their Times and take everything as fact or at face value. As with any historical account, you are left only with the side of the story that outlives the other. Cobb was dead. He could not speak for himself. If Crawford had a vendetta, he had free will to say whatever he wanted and have it written down.

In my opinion it's Crawford that comes off as "Cobb"esque in GOTT. Seems he had a really tough time adapting to life after baseball. and seems a cantankerous old soul

More than one of us have referenced the audio of GOTT, as opposed to material in the books. Cobb spoke for himself with his actions. After he was dead, there were only those who knew him who could talk about him. They didn't have much favorable to say. Smearing Crawford in order to make Cobb seem less racist is a long shot.

But anyone in 2016 who wants to disregard Cobb's racism is obviously free to do so. Revising history is still popular and effective.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Well said Scott

[Runscott]

Thanks Mike. I LOVE Ty Cobb - one of my favorite vintage ballplayers. I admire his grit, and I don't mind the fact that he had very few friends as a player or that he got in lots of fights. I also admire his treatment of people as he got older - I'm sure he still had problems, even some of the ones Stump described, but he also wrote some very nice letters in response to his fans, and did some good things for others (all of the good thins are well documented). None of that erases the mistakes of his youth, which are also well-documented.

I also was against digging up Billy The Kid, and I think we really did land on the moon.

[Joshchisox08]

I also was against digging up Billy The Kid, and I think we really did land on the moon.[/QUOTE]

Bahhahahha.

[Hankphenom]

Overall, I think the GOTT in its totality probably paints as even-handed a picture of Cobb during his playing days as you are going to find. And the audio goes beyond the words to give you the feeling behind them. There's great admiration for his talent and drive and also several strong defenses of his base running style, including by Crawford. Davy Jones sympathetically points to the killing of Cobb's father by his mother as a possible explanation for his rage at the world. I think Rube Bressler probably summed up his relationship with his peers best when he said, very simply: "They didn't like him, but he didn't care. He roomed alone." As for Crawford and Jones, while you might theorize about jealousy or payback in their stories and descriptions of his behavior, I think it would be a big mistake to discount them completely or even very much. They were all on the same team for a very long time, and they saw him as much as anybody. As with almost all of Ritter's subjects, there's an authenticity in their voices, a determination to tell him as best their memories could provide how it really was to be there.

[Runscott]

Well-stated!

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Gentlemen I would like to call your attention to a new documentary that will play today at 6:00 EST on the MLB Network. It is The First Boys of Spring.

It is the story of the birth of Spring Training as we know it today which began in 1886 when Cap Anson and Al Spalding brought the White Stockings to Hot Springs, Arkansas to "boil out" the winter-meaning alcohol.

It traces the teams that came to Hot Springs over the next 40-50 years and their successes. It was produced by four-time Emmy winner Larry Foley and is narrated by Billy Bob Thornton.

While Cobb has never been documented here, over 50 percent of all the members Hall of Fame spent time here during their careers which is amazing since this all ended decades ago.

Sandy Koufax credits his last season to spending three weeks here at the Levi Arthritic Hospital right before that final season.

Just fun stuff if you have time to watch.

By the way Hank their is a plaque in front of the old Hot Springs High School honoring Walter Johnson who assisted Honus Wagner in teaching the boys how to play basketball.

[Hankphenom]

By the way Hank their is a plaque in front of the old Hot Springs High School honoring Walter Johnson who assisted Honus Wagner in teaching the boys how to play basketball.

Thanks, Mike, first I've heard of it and very cool. About a year ago, I sold some photos of Walter in Hot Springs to a young fellow from there who was mounting an effort for a museum or permanent exhibit to the spring training baseball there, or at least that's what he said. But a couple of months ago, I saw two of the photos on eBay for ridiculous Buy It Now prices, so I don't know if I got scammed by this guy or what. So it goes...

[tbob]

He basically says that Cobb was certainly a racist by our modern standards, but essentially all Southern white people of that era were, .[/QUOTE]

Oh come on. Essentially all? Give me a break. Many Southerners were no more racist than Northerners in that era. Read some books about Northern soldiers and their attitudes toward African Americans. Most went to war not to free the slaves but to reunite the country and put down the rebellion. Plus don't forget that over 95% of Confederate soldiers never owned a single slave nor did their families. This was the Second War of Independence for many Southerners whose grandfathers fought in the Revolutionary War.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Hank I think he is still trying to open the museum but I really don't know for sure, he is nice but tough to get in contact with.

The location is there with great signage but the building is empty so I don't know for sure. I have not spoken with him is about nine months and only met him a couple of times. I hope it works out for him.

We have an extensive Historic Baseball Trail and the documentary which is really cut down for today's showing is neat. We can track visitors through smart phone contact and the Trail draws in about 600-700visitors a month in the off season and many more in the summer months.

We have a tremendous baseball community with a neat sense of history. I just got back from the first seven races at Oaklawn so that I can watch it! Plus I was losing today.

[mattsey9]

.

[mattsey9]

Oh come on. Essentially all? Give me a break. Many Southerners were no more racist than Northerners in that era. Read some books about Northern soldiers and their attitudes toward African Americans. Most went to war not to free the slaves but to reunite the country and put down the rebellion. Plus don't forget that over 95% of Confederate soldiers never owned a single slave nor did their families. This was the Second War of Independence for many Southerners whose grandfathers fought in the Revolutionary War.


Yes, essentially all Southerners were racists. So were most Northerners, Northern industrialists reaped large profits off of Southern goods produced by slave labor. Nobody had clean hands on this issue in this era.

But...

To submit that for a second that the Civil War was motivated by reasons other than slavery, The Lost Cause Myth, is a dangerous position to take. Honoring CSA soldiers as fallen heroes allowed the continued subjugation of freedmen and their descendants for the next century. I'm not sure what history books you are referring to, but the Lost Cause argument associated with the Dunning School hasn't been advanced by a non-racist organization in decades. Modern scholarship acknowledges that the North was a racist environment, but that the South was the one that fought to preserve slavery.[/QUOTE]

[Runscott]

Oh come on. Essentially all? Give me a break. Many Southerners were no more racist than Northerners in that era. Read some books about Northern soldiers and their attitudes toward African Americans. Most went to war not to free the slaves but to reunite the country and put down the rebellion. Plus don't forget that over 95% of Confederate soldiers never owned a single slave nor did their families. This was the Second War of Independence for many Southerners whose grandfathers fought in the Revolutionary War.

I participate sparingly on a Civil War forum, and it's incredible how blind people are today when it comes to racial attitudes in the past. First we inflict today's standards on people living in the past, then we inflict our wishes on people from the past who we wish had been something that they weren't. As a whole, the South (and the North);i.e- the entire U.S.A., in Cobb's time, was racist compared to today. As a whole, Cobb was racist even back then. All the wishing in the world isn't going to change the past. You learn and move forward.

[gabrinus]

I love the "right side of history" argument. Genghis Khan must have been on the right side of history......he controlled more territory than anyone and everybody knows what a sweetheart he was. Mike, you are right.....the South seceded because they were afraid Lincoln was going to eventually ban slavery. I don't think anyone on here would justify slavery. Lincoln made reference to slavery many times in his campaign speeches. That being said, the North invaded the South after Fort Sumpter. My home town church was burned by Union troops because it was being used as a hospital. My great-grandfather had to eat recycled horsefeed to survive in northern Georgia during the Reconstruction because Northern troops laid waste to his family's crops. I do feel that men who fought for their homes and families were heroes. I know this......Southern troops did not rape Northern women and pillage Northern towns. The one trip north to Gettysburg resulted in a catastrophic loss. The treatment of blacks in the South was reprehensible. I also think the way Patrick Ewing as a high school player was treated in Boston was too. I think the point Bob was making is that none of us should be too proud about those things.

[Runscott]

To submit that for a second that the Civil War was motivated by reasons other than slavery, The Lost Cause Myth, is a dangerous position to take.

As is suggesting that it was motivated by issues other than preserving the Union. I own original letters written by Northern soldiers 1-2 months after the Emancipation Proclamation and one of them emphatically states that the author is fighting for Union and is firmly against Lincoln's proclamation. When you go to war, potentially to lose your life, your reasons are generally important to you. Many of these soldiers went to war for Union and were very upset that Lincoln was confusing the issue with slavery. If you are also confused about this, and honestly think that it was only about slavery, as Hollywood portrays, then pick up a book; e.g-'For Cause and Comrades', and get the facts. More letters were written during the Civil War than any other war - there is no shortage of first-hand accounts of what the soldiers believed.

[mattsey9]

As is suggesting that it was motivated by issues other than preserving the Union. I own original letters written by Northern soldiers 1-2 months after the Emancipation Proclamation and one of them emphatically states that the author is fighting for Union and is firmly against Lincoln's proclamation. When you go to war, potentially to lose your life, your reasons are generally important to you. Many of these soldiers went to war for Union and were very upset that Lincoln was confusing the issue with slavery. If you are also confused about this, and honestly think that it was only about slavery, as Hollywood portrays, then pick up a book; e.g-'For Cause and Comrades', and get the facts. More letters were written during the Civil War than any other war - there is no shortage of first-hand accounts of what the soldiers believed.

I don't get my history from Hollywood. I hold a MA in American History and defended a final paper dealing with Progressive Era New South. While it's not my exact era of study, I've read more than I care to remember about the Civil War.

The war wasn't fought because of what individual soldiers believed in. The war was fought because state leaders in the South realized that Lincoln was serious about abolishing slavery. Their articles of secession are quite clear about this. Did many soldiers fight for other reasons? Most assuredly. But the underlying theme was the slave issue. Any other reason pales in comparison. The governments on both sides realized this and didn't try to hide it at the time.

There were racists on both sides. I've read passages from Jane Addams about blacks getting the right to vote before women that would make your blood boil. The northern industrialists even helped foster the post-Reconstruction New South that ushered in Jim Crow in an attempt to reconcile the country through capitalism.

On topic: Of course Cobb was a racist when he played. That puts him on the same level as the nearly unanimous majority of white Americans in his era.

[Runscott]

I don't get my history from Hollywood. I hold a MA in American History and defended a final paper dealing with Progressive Era New South. While it's not my exact era of study, I've read more than I care to remember about the Civil War.

The war wasn't fought because of what individual soldiers believed in. The war was fought because state leaders in the South realized that Lincoln was serious about abolishing slavery. Their articles of secession are quite clear about this. Did many soldiers fight for other reasons? Most assuredly. But the underlying theme was the slave issue. Any other reason pales in comparison. The governments on both sides realized this and didn't try to hide it at the time.

There were racists on both sides. I've read passages from Jane Addams about blacks getting the right to vote before women that would make your blood boil. The northern industrialists even helped foster the post-Reconstruction New South that ushered in Jim Crow in an attempt to reconcile the country through capitalism.

On topic: Of course Cobb was a racist when he played. That puts him on the same level as the nearly unanimous majority of white Americans in his era.

Not that you are one, but plenty of ignorant people hold MA's - using a degree to defend your position, as opposed to facts, is worthless in my opinion. I gave examples of individual soldiers' opinions because I wanted you to know that I'm not pulling this out of my *ss. I also gave the exact title of a book that you could read if you are not firmly entrenched in your opinions. But, I know - you have an MA in History, so that ends the discussion.

[Runscott]

One additional comment and then I will bow out of this one: the Civil War is over. I've always been perplexed at the need for some people to continue to line up on one side or the other, 150 years later. I don't really need to express my opinions here on the reasons for the Civil War - many who have researched the topic much more than you or I, have written books specifically on that subject. If you need to vent over things that occurred 150 years ago, and it helps you, then do so. If you are interested in learning, read a book.

[irishdenny]

His short temper was there no doubt. As most Irishmen have a short fuse, I'm sure the death of his father had something to do with this.

Cobb was Irish?? I like him even more now!

I come from a very Very VERY Long Line of Irish Folk :)
That "Short Temper'd Thing" is even found in my family...
In fact, most of me uncle's would take 6 ta 7 pints bfir they even gave it a taught... & even then they would politely ask ya, "what wer we just tawkin about?" :D

[irishdenny]

Gentlemen I would like to call your attention to a new documentary that will play today at 6:00 EST on the MLB Network. It is The First Boys of Spring.

Awesome.. Gotta See it!!!
& Many Thanks fir Pointing it out!

Here's the Trailer to the Show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h_aSdp2L5I

Looks Like a "Must See... Aye!"

Check this Out!

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/164344220/mlb-network-to-air-first-boys-of-spring-doc

Enjoy...

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Denny there is a good segment filmed at Foley's Irish Pub in NYC honoring Michael "King Kelley

[irishdenny]

Thank You Michael!
This is what gets my Blood Flowin...

Always a Pleasure... ;)

[packs]

As a whole, Cobb was racist even back then. All the wishing in the world isn't going to change the past. You learn and move forward.

You might be right that something he said or did could be considered racist today, but I don't think he would have been considered a racist in his time. In 1952 he's advocating for full integration of baseball 7 years before the last team integrated.

Just to dispel myths about the Cobb family and their political leanings too, here's a quote from Cobb's father while a Georgia State Senator in 1900. He's discussing voting against a bill that would tax African American properties to finance African American schools:

“Negroes had done, and were doing a good deal for the up building of the state, and I am in favor of allowing them money for education.”

That doesn't sound like a hardline Southern racist to me. This was 1900.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Not that you are one, but plenty of ignorant people hold MA's - using a degree to defend your position, as opposed to facts, is worthless in my opinion. I gave examples of individual soldiers' opinions because I wanted you to know that I'm not pulling this out of my *ss. I also gave the exact title of a book that you could read if you are not firmly entrenched in your opinions. But, I know - you have an MA in History, so that ends the discussion.

im pretty sure someone with an MA has opinion on books to read as well. Im sure there are books that take different positions on most subjects. Quoting one book does mean something but its the open course of discussion where there becomes a certain consensus on what the facts are when going through all information as people have to defend and listen to other positions....usually the discussion is between published scholars which later becomes the established consensus..there are always outliers

in any event, i not saying who is right...but just saying pointing to one book as dogma basically is just as bad or maybe worse as someone thinking since they have a degree they know it all too (not that someone did that)

[packs]

The South would spend the next century enacting Jim Crow laws to re-establish a white dominated society. They didn't spend the next century trying to preserve a stronger Union. That tells me the war was more about one thing than the other, even if individual soldiers didn't know it.

[thenavarro]

Ordered Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty today. Hope it's a good read