Could you or I have dominated the 1880s?

[Mountaineer1999]

Just for fun and if this takes up valuable front page space with silliness i apoligize in advance.

How many of you see pictures of pitchers from this era and think , i couldve hit .400 off this guy? How good were these players? Could they have beaten todays college teams? I guess no one really knows but would be interested in thoughts. Was there a decade when the switch was flipped and talent exploded or has it just been a gradual growth.

Pictures stolen from Facebook feed today.

[irv]

I can't speak for baseball but I know in hockey, most/all teams nowadays would simply slaughter any hockey team from 20+ yrs ago imo, let alone a 100.

I can vaguely remember players smoking on the bench and drinking Coca Cola!

The speed, condition of the players, talent is 10 fold nowadays imo, but of course, there were always exceptions.

[boneheadandrube]

Based on some of the mechanics of the 19th century players (pitching motion & delivery, batting stance etc.) it doesn't look like the game was very advanced physically. I'd say a good college team would smoke all comers in 1880...

[coolshemp]

They may look not as strong, but I would wager that these dudes were a lot scrappier and tougher than today's players. The time that they lived in was more rough, in general, and it was the rare exception that a college educated youth would be involved in sports at a professional level. These guys lived fast and strong, an most likely had the IDGAF attitude towards life in general.

[boneheadandrube]

Based on some of the mechanics of the 19th century players (pitching motion & delivery, batting stance etc.) it doesn't look like the game was very advanced physically. I'd say a good college team would smoke all comers in 1880...

I mean a college team of today.

[tschock]

They may look not as strong, but I would wager that these dudes were a lot scrappier and tougher than today's players. The time that they lived in was more rough, in general, and it was the rare exception that a college educated youth would be involved in sports at a professional level. These guys lived fast and strong, an most likely had the IDGAF attitude towards life in general.

I was thinking along the same lines. You might end up hitting better, but how long would you last doing so if one or more of them decided to take you out.

[rhettyeakley]

I doubt any old Joe Schmo from today would dominate if they were transported to the past. I think We see the mustaches and posed images and just assume they were terrible because they look awkward, some people really do have natural god given talent and they did then just like they do now.

Players bridge the gap from the 1880's to the 1900's and those people played alongside players from the 1900's that played alongside players from the 1920's and on and on. I can't ever remember a player saying that the players at the end of their careers were just so much better than when they started so I have a hard time believing that things change as much as we think. I am sure players today are better trained but just assuming everyone in the past would suck compared to today is silly. Some sports today barely resemble the same sport from 100 years ago but baseball is perhaps the one sport that has changed the least amount.

Nobody looking at a picture of Kent Tekulve in the 1970-80's thought he looked like a great athlete but the guy was a decent pitcher! I think we would be surprised at the ability of some of the players of yesteryear if we were to see them play.

-Rhett

[sycks22]

I remember hearing recently somewhere that they did some formulas to figure out that Walter Johnson threw 92-93 mph and he was "unhittable" during his time. If the fastest pitcher threw 92 back then wouldn't it be assumed that the average pitcher threw mid 80's or d-3 college?

[sbfinley]

If you think you could hit a prune shaped black sphere hurled from a spitballer with regular consistency. Yes, you would dominate.

[mooch]

I'd like to think I'd do well, but honestly they likely had elite hand-eye coordination and speed, especially lateral quickness and agility. If not, someone else would have taken their place. These players may not have been big and bulky, but it is the coordination and quickness that distinguished them in their time. I doubt most of us would be able to hang with them unless one of us was at least a college level player. A big college, but not mlb player, would likely hit further and maybe run well, but they might struggle a little on contact and the nuances of small ball. Also, imagine trying to catch after being spoiled with modern gloves. Great thought experiment, nonetheless. What we'd all give for a shot!

[Econteachert205]

Give them gloves, modern equipment and training and one year and the best wouldcompete with today's players.

[boneheadandrube]

"you or I"

Based on this meaning a team of vintage baseball card collectors being transported back in time to chellenge a team of 1888, then I would change my answer to "No, they would kick baseball card collectors asses."

[xplainer]

Yeah the spit ball was the pitch back then.
Also, remember you'd have to play the field. Pretty much no glove then.
Not as we know it today.

And they would slide with spikes up.
And you could break up a double play with a take out slide at second.
And catchers could get drilled on a play at the plate.
And pitches had to bat too.
And you could fake the pickoff at third, then check first.
And batters didn't have helmets.
And pitchers didn't have helmets in their cap.

Different era = different game.

Dominate? No. But might could play with them.

[PowderedH2O]

Olympic records in track and field are easy to compare. Jesse Owens was the fastest man in the world in 1936. His numbers would not win an NCAA title now. But, he would still be very fast. I imagine baseball players are much the same. Not quite as good, but still better than me.

[Runscott]

Baseball was dominated by Pete Rose types, in every sense of the word. The picked 9 had to be feisty, as the 10th guy was waiting for any slip-up.

If you had athletic ability AND small-man complex, you might have done well.

[xplainer]

Baseball was dominated by Pete Rose types, in every sense of the word. The picked 9 had to be feisty, as the 10th guy was waiting for any slip-up.

If you had athletic ability AND small-man complex, you might have done well.

I bet you are right. :D

[Duluth Eskimo]

I remember hearing recently somewhere that they did some formulas to figure out that Walter Johnson threw 92-93 mph and he was "unhittable" during his time. If the fastest pitcher threw 92 back then wouldn't it be assumed that the average pitcher threw mid 80's or d-3 college?

I doubt this was true. Wasn't Bob Feller "unofficially" clocked by scientists and early equipment at 100 mph in his prime? There were players that easily saw both in their prime and some may have faced both. The way it seems almost all early players say Walter Johnson was the fastest and some say best pitcher which makes me think he was a hell of a lot better than D3.

In that same though, I am pretty sure way back it was still natural ability to throw a ball hard as it is today. For the sake of the initial arguement and for those who have never faced a pitcher who throws serious smoke, I highly encourage you to go to your local batting cage and step into the 85 or 90 mph stall and then give your answer afterwards in this thread. Many of the greatest pitchers had the natural ability to throw hard back then and today. They didn't do a bunch of exercises to throw harder, mostly just to loosen up. In fact, they probably went out drinking that night and got up and threw another 9 innings the next day. I think those guys were a lot tougher than you think. Jason

[Mountaineer1999]

Lots of good points and actually I never really thought about the toughness. Playing with equipment of the day or lack thereof would definitely give the 1880s a home century advantage. I couldn't play without a glove and I would not want to take pitches in the ear with no helmet.

[Rookiemonster]

I think MOST of the players of that time . And even going even further in to the 1900s would not be considered for a minor league talent .
I think I would dominate . They way we learned to play growing up , the food we ate , the exercise technics and equipment .

The same for football . Yes I know the ball was different .

[Head928]

I think that becoming a major league player back then would have been an easier road than it is now. As far as being a dominate player I don’t think I would have performed any better against Matty or Walter Johnson than anyone else did. The top athletes back then were still great athletes by today’s standards they were just a lot less of them around for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. The same goes for the NFL a 6’4” 250 lb athletic dude is not considered a big deal nowadays but that was the size of most NFL linemen up until even the 70s it does not mean that person would have dominated Jim Brown though.

[kmac32]

I hit 500 off of the pitching machines used at Cubs fantasy camp and have a career 333 average off of the Cubs professional potchers. Have a single off of Lee Smith and one off of Shawn Boskie. Been struck out by Burt Hooton and Fergie Jenkins.

I also picked Lee Smith off of first base when I closed for the campers......of course I walked 3 batters and got shelled by many more. My ERA must be north of 90.00 and I have a blown save and a loss to my stats so pitching probably is not my forte

[mechanicalman]

I think in the later innings of a double header, once the pitch count gets around the 350-375 range, I might be able to foul tip a Tim Keefe pitch.

[Joe_G.]

I believe some of the 19th century pitchers could bring the heat, particularly Amos Rusie, the "the Hoosier Thunderbolt". http://www.thenationalpastimemuseum.com/article/amos-rusie

[Mountaineer1999]

I think in the later innings of a double header, once the pitch count gets around the 350-375 range, I might be able to foul tip a Tim Keefe pitch.

I guess this could be true and I underestimate these guys but it seems to me a decent college player today would smack Tim Keefe around the lot. Especially if they move him back to 60 feet. Again, if the college player goes back to 1880 and Keefe pitches from 45 to 50 feet then big edge Keefe.

[TCMA]

I played four years of D3 college ball and two seasons of semi-pro, wood bat league ball. Remember, college players are swinging aluminum and that's another edge the old-timers would have if our modern guys were transported back.

Moving from aluminum to wood IS a challenge. Mainly because the wood bats are less forgiving and it's tougher to get "cheap" hits. I saw balls hit so hard in college off aluminum bats that the infielders wanted no part of it.

[xplainer]

I also picked Lee Smith off of first base when I closed for the campers......of course I walked 3 batters and got shelled by many more. My ERA must be north of 90.00 and I have a blown save and a loss to my stats so pitching probably is not my forte

The Braves are showing an interest. :D

[jason.1969]

Love the question. One way to think about it is not to transport us back in time but to bring early players (will skip the 1880s and go with Cobb, Wagner, and Jackie Robinson) into the present.

Could those guys compete in today's bigs? I believe so. Cobb maybe doesn't finish at .367 but still wins batting titles. Wagner does everything but hit for power and is a throwback to a bygone era. Robinson is still an elite athlete.

So if these guys could do it today, guys like us definitely couldn't do it back then.

1880s though? Hmmm. Maybe. Teams would drool for a 6'0" 225 lb lefty like me!

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[z28jd]

I always laugh when this question comes up because 99% of people frame it as those players coming to play now and not being able to keep up with the speed.

If you could transport a current player back to that period, I don't think there is a single Major League player today who would last an entire season in the 1880's, let alone be a star. They would probably fear for their lives and not be able to adjust to life without all the amenities. Imagine someone now going to play a summer game in those uniforms under those conditions. They would be waving a white flag by June 1st. But on the opposite end, someone from that era might be overwhelmed by how pampered the players are now.

As far as a team of Net54 All-Stars, I can't imagine we would have a shot in hell against them and you can bet when I say "we" that I'd be playing in that game if it could happen. You have to remember how small the majors were back then and how popular baseball was, so there weren't many bad players in the league like there are now.

Then you look at the disaster some players turned out to be when given a trial. Michael Corcoran is a great example. He was the brother of the team's star pitcher in 1884 for the White Stockings, and he was also a minor league pitcher at the time. He gave up 14 runs to the 28-84 Detroit Wolverines. If a 25-year-old minor leaguer got crushed by the worst MLB team, what chance would the Net54 Keyboard Warriors have.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Wasn't there a Tom Clancy book that had a virtual/simulated games of the All-Time greats and there was like an attack and Ruth or someone got shot? I can't recall too much more, I was in 6th grade when I read it.

Thread kind of reminded me of that a little.


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[Mountaineer1999]

As far as a team of Net54 All-Stars, I can't imagine we would have a shot in hell against them and you can bet when I say "we" that I'd be playing in that game if it could happen.

This would be one of the most fun/terrifying opportunities one could imagine! Real life Field of Dreams! :)

Fun discussion...

[slidekellyslide]

While the average person may not be as fast or as strong as the average person today we have to remember that the major leaguers of the 1800s were not average. Everyone grew up playing baseball, every town had a team, and these guys were the best of the best. There are probably very few Net54 members who in their athletic prime were as good at baseball as an 1800 major leaguer.

I vote NO

Now basketball on the other hand. I would have definitely dominated. :D

[boneheadandrube]

I think in the later innings of a double header, once the pitch count gets around the 350-375 range, I might be able to foul tip a Tim Keefe pitch.

I could turn any Keefe offering into a frozen rope extending into left center. With the ricochet off the farthest buggy in the outfield I could make it to third, but would probably head for home where I would give Buck a concave chest or at least an undiagnosed high ankle sprain if he tries to protect the plate. :):p:D

[drmondobueno]

I have family who played in various levels of baseball around and after the turn of the century, the steel leagues in Pittsburgh, so maybe, yeah. But reality tells me no, as Penicillin saved me as a tot more than once. Ergo, no medicine, no me.

Funny, as I get older I am fine with what I am. And I love baeball cards more than ever.

Just my two cents.

[egri]

I think the athletes of today aren't as tough as the athletes of yesteryear. Today's athletes pro athletes all have high school diplomas, at least some college if not a degree, and generally get pretty good signing bonuses, so if sports doesn't work out, they have viable fallback options. Back then, high school dropouts were common, the salaries were crap, and it was either succeed in sports or go back to the mill/farm, so the Ellis Kinder's and Dizzy Dean's of the world had no choice but to succeed no matter the circumstances. Even someone as immensely talented as Mickey Mantle didn't have any other options; when he was struggling in the minors and wanted to quit, Mutt Mantle threatened to drag him back to the lead mines for the rest of his life. The players of today aren't coming from that background and don't have that mentality. And that's before you get in to the lack of amenities and poor medical care that they received from team doctors. I can't imagine someone like Bryce Harper or Barry Bonds putting up with flannel uniforms in July or train rides without air conditioning for very long.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I think the athletes of today aren't as tough as the athletes of yesteryear. Today's athletes pro athletes all have high school diplomas, at least some college if not a degree, and generally get pretty good signing bonuses, so if sports doesn't work out, they have viable fallback options. Back then, high school dropouts were common, the salaries were crap, and it was either succeed in sports or go back to the mill/farm, so the Ellis Kinder's and Dizzy Dean's of the world had no choice but to succeed no matter the circumstances. Even someone as immensely talented as Mickey Mantle didn't have any other options; when he was struggling in the minors and wanted to quit, Mutt Mantle threatened to drag him back to the lead mines for the rest of his life. The players of today aren't coming from that background and don't have that mentality. And that's before you get in to the lack of amenities and poor medical care that they received from team doctors. I can't imagine someone like Bryce Harper or Barry Bonds putting up with flannel uniforms in July or train rides without air conditioning for very long.


Great post. I guess you could say the same for today's players though. What I'm referencing are the kids from the DR, Cuba etc. They have no fall back. It's either make it or go home and work in the fields.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/Jairo_Munoz_Second_chance_at_hope.html


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[insidethewrapper]

At times in the 19th Century you could call your pitch ( high or low) and wait for a good one. Also early on they did "pitch" the ball, like slow pitch soft ball. And now some of these hitters are in the Hall of Fame. It was not until I believe 1884 that the delivery or overhand motion started the fastball era

[HOF Auto Rookies]

At times in the 19th Century you could call your pitch ( high or low) and wait for a good one. Also early on they did "pitch" the ball, like slow pitch soft ball. And now some of these hitters are in the Hall of Fame. It was not until I believe 1884 that the delivery or overhand motion started the fastball era


And the speed pitch was banned in the early days as well.


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[horzverti]

I think that the worst MLB player now would be a HOFer at his 2016 position back in the 1880s. Given that the time traveling current player could take his 2016 body, skills and experience with him.

[RUKen]

Yeah the spit ball was the pitch back then.

The spitball didn't become common until about 1903-1905 (though Bobby Mathews of the 1880's Athletic Club of Philadelphia may have thrown it), and the scuff ball (or whatever you want to call the nicked up baseball thrown by Russ Ford and Cy Falkenberg) didn't appear in the majors until 1910.

[z28jd]

I think that the worst MLB player now would be a HOFer at his 2016 position back in the 1880s. Given that the time traveling current player could take his 2016 body, skills and experience with him.

Probably 90% of them would get back in their time machine without playing a game when they find out they don't get a glove or a batting helmet, especially with the pitchers closer

[xplainer]

The spitball didn't become common until about 1903-1905 (though Bobby Mathews of the 1880's Athletic Club of Philadelphia may have thrown it), and the scuff ball (or whatever you want to call the nicked up baseball thrown by Russ Ford and Cy Falkenberg) didn't appear in the majors until 1910.

Was thinking of my PC man Jimmy Lavender. He used it alot and stopped Rube's winning streak and threw a no hitter. So, yes. No contradiction here.

Thanks for that info. Good to know when it first appeared.

[pokerplyr80]

"you or I"

Based on this meaning a team of vintage baseball card collectors being transported back in time to chellenge a team of 1888, then I would change my answer to "No, they would kick baseball card collectors asses."

I agree with this. I think an average major leaguer could be dominant if he had a time machine to go back to that era. The average Net54 member, not so much. Unless there are some current or former players I'm unaware of on this site.

[buchner]

Why don't you guys who get a "kick" out of putting down 19th century ballplayers, pick up a history book and read how people had to live back in the 19th century. I doubt that any of you would last very long in the 1880's, and you certainly couldn't play the brand of baseball played back then. But than again, I'm sure you all could go 10 rounds with John L. Sullivan.

[drcy]

The answer is backwards human time travel is impossible (notes on time (https://cycleback.wordpress.com/2014/10/15/notes-on-time/)).

[horzverti]

Why don't you guys who get a "kick" out of putting down 19th century ballplayers, pick up a history book and read how people had to live back in the 19th century. I doubt that any of you would last very long in the 1880's, and you certainly couldn't play the brand of baseball played back then. But than again, I'm sure you all could go 10 rounds with John L. Sullivan.

You seem angry so I have to ask...are you a time traveling 19th century ballplayer? If you are, then can you tell us how you stack up against your modern game competition? Also, how did you get here? You may be able to put this debate to rest. Insert smiley face here...not trying to offend, just keeping it light.

[Mountaineer1999]

Why don't you guys who get a "kick" out of putting down 19th century ballplayers, pick up a history book and read how people had to live back in the 19th century. I doubt that any of you would last very long in the 1880's, and you certainly couldn't play the brand of baseball played back then. But than again, I'm sure you all could go 10 rounds with John L. Sullivan.

For real?

[Mountaineer1999]

You seem angry so I have to ask...are you a time traveling 19th century ballplayer? If you are, then can you tell us how you stack up against your modern game competition? Also, how did you get here? You may be able to put this debate to rest. Insert smiley face here...not trying to offend, just keeping it light.

This is funny!

[TheBig6]

Here's an excerpt from Tim Keefe's Sabr Bio, take from it what you will. It was a different game in the 1880's , but do you think you could hit keefe at 50ft. away.

Besides pitching at different speeds, Keefe threw with different arm motions, often side-arm and underhand (submarine style, in today’s parlance) even though the overhand delivery had been legalized in 1884. He also made liberal use of the entire pitcher’s box, throwing from different angles (not simply straight on to the batter) and taking multiple steps before releasing the ball, not always pitching from a set position. Keefe was a master of the multistep hop, skip, and jump delivery, which he described in 1888 as combining “plenty of speed and strength and a series of gymnastics to terrify the batter,” in which “the pitcher had the batter completely at his mercy.” As Keefe recalled later in life, “We were pitching from a 50-foot distance then, and honestly, I sometimes used to wonder how they even hit us, with those advantages which we had.

[tjb1952tjb]

Here's an excerpt from Tim Keefe's Sabr Bio, take from it what you will. It was a different game in the 1880's , but do you think you could hit keefe at 50ft. away.

Besides pitching at different speeds, Keefe threw with different arm motions, often side-arm and underhand (submarine style, in today’s parlance) even though the overhand delivery had been legalized in 1884. He also made liberal use of the entire pitcher’s box, throwing from different angles (not simply straight on to the batter) and taking multiple steps before releasing the ball, not always pitching from a set position. Keefe was a master of the multistep hop, skip, and jump delivery, which he described in 1888 as combining “plenty of speed and strength and a series of gymnastics to terrify the batter,” in which “the pitcher had the batter completely at his mercy.” As Keefe recalled later in life, “We were pitching from a 50-foot distance then, and honestly, I sometimes used to wonder how they even hit us, with those advantages which we had.

A pitcher's rubber and the balk rule would have doomed Keefe...such a different time.

[Frank A]

It seems that many of you guys think these guys were bums. I dought very much if anyone could go back and do better. Look at the equiptment they had. Wood bats with a handle almost as big as the head of the bat. You wouldn't be whipping that bat around like today's. How good do you think you would be in the field with a glove no bigger than your hand to catch with. Some how you guys think you would be great hitter with the mush ball they had. Most major league players would have a hard time adjusting to that, let alone a star softball player. You can never compare different eras. Frank

[boneheadandrube]

Shortly after Keefe's hopping and wiffle ball pitching style gimmick's got him pulled, Pud Galvin would have to be helped off the field, suffering whiplash from spinning to watch the moon shot formerly known as his "speed ball" bouncing off of a beer cart in right field. My bat would later be nicknamed the "Galvinizer" and immortilized in a Harpers woodcut depicting the majestic blast. :)

[mechanicalman]

Shortly after Keefe's hopping and wiffle ball pitching style gimmick's got him pulled, Pud Galvin would have to be helped off the field, suffering whiplash from spinning to watch the moon shot formerly known as his "speed ball" bouncing off of a beer cart in right field. My bat would later be nicknamed the "Galvinizer" and immortilized in a Harpers woodcut depicting the majestic blast. :)

I remember that game like it was yesterday. I recall, after the game, the boys split a jug of whiskey sour mash and almost missed the rail to Roanoke.

[Jeff_cvc]

Why don't you guys who get a "kick" out of putting down 19th century ballplayers, pick up a history book and read how people had to live back in the 19th century. I doubt that any of you would last very long in the 1880's, and you certainly couldn't play the brand of baseball played back then. But than again, I'm sure you all could go 10 rounds with John L. Sullivan.

I batted over .500 in little league, if I didn't retire at the ripe age of 13, I'm sure I would of dominated back then. As far as toughness, my air conditioner went out last summer, it was unbearable. I also had to walk to school, uphill both ways, and it was always snowing. Got to go, time for a warm shower, massage later today, a little tv time and ordering in some pizza. Yea, I'd definitely kick ass in the 1800's.

[pokerplyr80]

The answer is backwards human time travel is impossible (notes on time (https://cycleback.wordpress.com/2014/10/15/notes-on-time/)).

I would not discount the possibility. We may not have found a way to travel in time yet, but who is to say what the future my may bring?

[egri]

You seem angry so I have to ask...are you a time traveling 19th century ballplayer? If you are, then can you tell us how you stack up against your modern game competition? Also, how did you get here? You may be able to put this debate to rest. Insert smiley face here...not trying to offend, just keeping it light.

I think maybe he's William McKinley, and he's still peeved that his doctors didn't use the x-ray machine that was on display at the fair (literally two booths away from where McKinley was shot) to search for the bullet.

Also not trying to offend here, just saw the shot and couldn't resist (no pun intended) :D.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Don't care how I'd do, just think it would be amazing to play with those guys with early rules and go have some brews afterwards. Maybe get some OJ's signed while I'm at it ;)


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[Joe_G.]

1880s baseball wasn’t as some are portraying here. It was fiercely competitive landscape with owners and managers scouring the country for the best players. By the 1880s, the men playing the game were surrounded by it their whole life, it was America’s game. And it was a brutal sport, not for the weak at heart.

Many pitchers were throwing hard long before 1884, the curve ball was established in the 1870s (try to curve a ball with an underhand lob). The League finally allowed overhand delivery (pitching restrictions lifted 1884) as many pitchers were already pushing the envelope and delivering the ball north of a side arm motion.

A quick note on pitching distance, the transition to 60’-6” (1893 to present) is estimated to be only 4’ -3 ½” longer than the pitching distance of the 1880s (not the 10’ -6” often quoted). Pitchers of the 1880s had to deliver the ball from within a box, releasing the ball behind a line that was 50 feet from the center of home plate. The 1893 to present pitching distance of 60’ -6” is measured from the pitching rubber to the back of home plate. When you consider the average release point off the rubber and the difference in measuring from center of home plate vs back of home plate you get a difference of 4’-3 ½”. (this being a paraphrase of several John Thorn and SABR articles)

The link I provided earlier in the thread discusses Rusie’s amazing speed, estimated at low to mid 90s. This extra 4’-3 ½” gave the batters a little better chance to react to a pitch (or get out of the way of a wild one). I’d hate to be facing Rusie in 1892. So the batters of the 1880s were standing 4’ 3 ½” closer to a pitcher who could, prior to 1887, hit the batsmen without penalty. Tim Keefe had a reputation of keeping batters honest. Sam Thompson described Tim Keefe as a pitcher with speed to burn . . . Keefe may not have intended hitting as many men as he did, but he kept us black and blue just the same.

The pitchers of the 1880s used all the tricks of the trade. Another Sam Thompson story (I recently finished Roy Kerr’s biography on Big Sam) relates to the pitching talents of John Clarkson, both mental and physical. With trash talking a plenty, Clarkson always seemed to throw what you least expected, alternating between an in or out shooting curve and a fast one straight as a string. Sam also mentions how Clarkson would dig a hole in the pitchers box to leverage off of; using every and all advantage he could dream up.

There are countless 19th century stories of a prodigy that could throw faster than the speed of light or a batter that hit over .500 on a college team that just couldn’t cut it in the NL, AA, or even leading minor league. Most every boy played the game, only the best advanced.

[boneheadandrube]

For the record, I thought the title of the thread was hilarious when I read it, so I decided to play the devils advocate and "talk of dominating" these guys in a couple posts for fun. For their time these men were certainly the best, and are to be respected as such, but lets not take this too seriously.
I do think that a good common sense analysis of that time vs now is to simply understand that the game, and people physically have both evolved and improved, just as almost anything else has since then. Also, I don't think that statistics or tales from the past are an accurate resource for judging their abilities, but thats what baseball fans use as gospel for these discussions.

GB

[Rookiemonster]

Bottom line men have evolved since then . We are bigger , stronger , faster , smarter , healthier , live longer , we have a longer prime age . It's a joke to compare . They were not raised playing tee ball , little league etc . Don't take the stats they put up to serious . Even well in to the 1900s if you truly think most of those guy would hit off Gibson , Koufax, Spahn your not in touch with reality . ( forget about Ryan , Clemens , Seaver , ) . Just flip the senarios send them in to today's game . They would be laughed off the field . These were not athelites .

[Runscott]

I always laugh when this question comes up because 99% of people frame it as those players coming to play now and not being able to keep up with the speed.

If you could transport a current player back to that period, I don't think there is a single Major League player today who would last an entire season in the 1880's, let alone be a star. They would probably fear for their lives and not be able to adjust to life without all the amenities. Imagine someone now going to play a summer game in those uniforms under those conditions. They would be waving a white flag by June 1st. But on the opposite end, someone from that era might be overwhelmed by how pampered the players are now.

As far as a team of Net54 All-Stars, I can't imagine we would have a shot in hell against them and you can bet when I say "we" that I'd be playing in that game if it could happen. You have to remember how small the majors were back then and how popular baseball was, so there weren't many bad players in the league like there are now.

Then you look at the disaster some players turned out to be when given a trial. Michael Corcoran is a great example. He was the brother of the team's star pitcher in 1884 for the White Stockings, and he was also a minor league pitcher at the time. He gave up 14 runs to the 28-84 Detroit Wolverines. If a 25-year-old minor leaguer got crushed by the worst MLB team, what chance would the Net54 Keyboard Warriors have.

Great post, John. Dan's also. I also like your newly-coined phrase.

[bmarlowe1]

I would not discount the possibility. We may not have found a way to travel in time yet, but who is to say what the future my may bring?

So - have you ever met anyone from the future?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

So - have you ever met anyone from the future?


Everyone has time traveled...if they change time zones ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[packs]

I know people talk about the modern game, but today's player does not have to beat out half the amount of other players to earn a job as the pre-war player did. Everyone played baseball in 1910. If you were on a pro team, you were in all seriousness better than everyone else. Today I don't necessarily think that's true anymore. I think you're just better than the people who play too.

Having said that, I have to think the 1910 player was a heck of a player even if he was dwarfed physically by today's athlete.

[bmarlowe1]

Bottom line men have evolved since then . We are bigger , stronger , faster , smarter , healthier , live longer , we have a longer prime age . It's a joke to compare . They were not raised playing tee ball , little league etc . Don't take the stats they put up to serious . Even well in to the 1900s if you truly think most of those guy would hit off Gibson , Koufax, Spahn your not in touch with reality . ( forget about Ryan , Clemens , Seaver , ) . Just flip the senarios send them in to today's game . They would be laughed off the field . These were not athelites .

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> Actually, men have not evolved at all. There has been no meaningful genetic change over such a short period of time. Men now are the same as men then. Certainly they are not any smarter.

What has changed is nutrition (though not all for the better), health care and the science behind athletic training and performance. The apparent result of this is an overall rise in the average performance of serious athletes (as evidenced, for example, in track and field results).

Batting averages during the Deadball Era were generally low. However there were huge outliers like Wagner, Cobb, Lajoie. We don’t seem to have outliers like that now because the average guy is better due to the above mentioned factors (BTW - this is not an original thought by me). That does not mean that the very top players now are better than those early outliers. There is no reason to think that these top performing Deadball era outliers (and 19thC outliers as well) would not be top players now.
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[Leon]

Obviously the signs of the time affect all players. I am sure there are good athletes on the board and if you are pro-caliber today then I think you probably would have been back then. I was high school caliber. Now I am Sr. (old people) League caliber.... It's all relative (as Mark alluded to).