Theories About the Existence of High Grade Vintage

[mechanicalman]

Since re-entering the hobby a few years ago, the thing that has most blown my mind is the existence of extremely high grade vintage cards. I'm talking about T206s in 8 and 9s, Goudeys in 9, and even a '34 Goudey Gehrig in Gem MT 10 coming to auction from Heritage.

My question is - how do cards that, when launched, and were perceived to have nothing more than sentimental value, survive 80-100+ years through Wars, Depressions, moms, etc. in such amazing condition? I mean, hell, when I collected in 1985, my Topps pick-ups were probably in VG-EX condition by the time I got them home from the grocery store, and I cherished those cards as if they were cardboard gold.

I know I'm opening the doors to responses centered around trimming/altering and other nefarious activities, and I acknowledge that's a big driver. But I wonder if any experts know of any other, more virtuous, events that would have led to high grade material standing the tests of time. I'm aware of the Black Swamp find, the 52 Topps Mr. Mint find, but I wonder if there were other large finds that would have preserved cards. Any unopened Goudeys? Un-circulated T206s?

I don't collect super hi-grade vintage given my budget, but I'm just looking for a reason to believe in it. Thanks for your comments.

[Luke]

The main way that it has happened naturally is a near-mint card being placed in a scrapbook with a water/flour mixture (or something similar). The scrapbook protects the card for decades, and at some point it is soaked out and graded.

[kmac32]

After soaking a few vintage cards recently, it is pretty easy to do with little or no damage to the cards so I agree with Lukes theory. I also remember as a kid collecting 1969 topps and you would play with them for a day or 2 and then into my baseball card drawer they would go not to be seen for years and then one day when I was in college, mom was cleaning out drawers and asked if I still wanted them. They were still in pristine shape after 20 plus years in a drawer so I an sure many cards have survived decades in attics and basements.

[jsq]

to understand the answer to your question, some perspective below may help you.

i will just bang it out so please forgive grammer etc.

during the mid 1970's about 25 or 30 different groups of people travelled the country doing hotel buying trips. they took out ads in the local newspaper and said i am buying cards in your town, pre 1960 typically, come to xyz hotel on saturday and/or sunday and we will pay cash.

this was before any reasonable hobby card guide or price guide existed.

the hobby prior to this time period had experienced very slow but steady growth but still was extremely small relative to todays number of collectors. with the emergence of hobby papers such as trader speaks and sports collectors digest some information was finally emerging but pricing info was grudgingly shared, not until the beckett guides did good price info emerge to the masses.

as such many people with older cards did not place much value on them - even within the hobby. and this was correctly so at that time as the market was extremely thin. you could not move volume of quality older cards. there was very little cash in the hobby in 1974 and 1975.

in 1974 or 1975, i remember having fits moving a vg-ex set of 1941 play ball that i wanted $225 or $250 for and that was after a 2 day show in chicago (once a year show or twice a year - i don't recall when chicago area finally got 2 shows a year for its 7 million metro region). this was the only shows held in that metro of any consequence for the entire year at that time. other metros likewise had only 1 or two shows a year in 1974. finally a guy showed up near the end or after the show closed and said he would buy it and complained massively that his wife was going to chew his A** for spending so much at the show.

the volume of cards and the quality of cards that was acquired by these different buying hotel buying groups was truly of epic proportion. something few who were not part the buying groups could ever imagine. this is truly the catalyst of the hobby growth for many reasons including:

it finally gave sellers enough inventory for people to put more effort into the marketing of the hobby (and their now burgeoning inventory).

the local newspapers found this such an exotic idea that adults would purchase essentially kids toys and pay good cash to boot that it was a great story that ran in many papers. this in turn brought hundreds of thousands of collectors into the hobby with the knowledge that it was ok to collect childhood memories even if you were not a child. the newspapers often made fun of the collectors. it was quite difficult to collect cards as an adult, you were literally looked at as a bit "odd" and that is no exageration at the point in time. local media exposure covering these buying trips greatly increased the awareness of the hobby.

i could go on with lots of other catalysts this buying activity unleashed but let it be safe to say many of the pre 1960 cards in the hobby emanated from these hotel buying trips. they covered literally every state, canada, and venezuela. they provided the inventory for the majority of the original card stores.

one of my friends, mike, competed with me in these hotel buying trip ventures (he also lived in a town of 75,000 people and ran a weekly classified to buy cards in the local paper. for instance mike had about 50 mint (nm to mint ie psa 8,9,10 by todays grading) 1959 stan musials for instance because he kept the ones from his and his partners buying trips. stan was his childhood hero. think how many lesser grade musials were in the batches he handled. these 50 cards on these buying trips and classified ads (most came from the buying trips) came from the original owner or original owners families. the condition was all over the place as you can imagine but mike and this 1 hotel buying group did enough volume of purchases for mike to get about 50 nm-mt 59 musials. he had dibs on the musials but nonetheless this one guy from one buying group had this many at one time by 1976 or 1977. now extrapolate this back in time. the older stuff had lower volume available of couse but e, t, and r series cards from 1910 - 1941 were a lot more common showing up at these hotel buying trips then todays collectors would imagine. and the condition in some cases was factory new for all intents and purposes. the older the lesser condition in general of course.

one thing to understand is that virtually nobody cared about condition as we know it today. my friend mike was far and away the first person i ever met who cared about gloss, printer marks, and centering. everyone wanted nice clean cards and would always take the better centered better condition. condition was not a major concern. the key then was to fill the missing number and most never bothered to upgrade and since i personally knew numerous people with collections that would have been in the top 20 collections EVER assembled before big money moved into the hobby in the 1990's i know what was in those collections and handled their cards personally -literally handled. with my friend mike that included mint sets of topps bowmans, play balls and goudeys (no lajoie) not to mention lots of e and t stuff that ranged from ex to mt but mike did not have complete sets of all the major e and t sets like he did the r sets.

beer can collecting was getting far more press at that time and had the added benefit that people did not think you were "weird" as an adult collecting beer cans since it was macho. the thing that stunted and essentially kept beer can collecting a small hobby is that unlike bb cards no giant hordes ever continually turned up. no hotel buying trips turned up anything if hotel buying trips even ever occured with beer cans. thus their was no incentive for the hobby to grow into the volume like it did with bb cards. no inventory = no business/hobby.

beer can collecting started later then bb card collecting yet it had 10 times the number of collectors by 1975? by 1975 beer can collecting had 6 or 7 major publishing books in full color whereas the bb card hobby had sortof 1. the beer can collecting hobby dwarfed the bb card hobby in terms of adult participants.

it is a good perspective to understand why the beer can collecting hobby died in infancy and why the bb card hobby skyrocketed. understand the hotel buying trips and what it unleashed and you will know a lot about the bb card hobby.

understanding the volume and QUALITY of cards turned up AND SAVED for the future of the hobby by these pioneers in the bb card collecting field is a key to understanding the sudden growth of the hobby starting in 1976 and moving forward and likewise the volume of cards led to the emergence of the price guide which took the hobby to another level.

no hotel buying trips = no excess inventory,
no influx of inventory = far fewer cards for collectors to collect
no hotel buying trips = no emergence of price guides for mass consumption
no hotel buying trips = no mass media exposure
no hotel buying trips = a whole lot of todays cards would have ended up in the trash heap.
no hotel buying trips = well you are starting to grasp the importance of the hotel buying trips and the vision the early hobby pioneers had which provided the catalyst for the emergence of this fun hobby.

you can make a good case that the catalyst for the entire bb card hobby was the hotel buying trips. without the hotel buying trips very few of the collectors of today would be in this hobby.

do lots of cards exist today that are truly mint or nm condition that were never touched or tampered with by card doctors? the answer is definately yes - i saw them and handled them in the 1973 - 1978 era.

their were a surprising number of kids who took care of their cards and just assembled number runs, or sets, if they had enough cash and then put the cards in a box where they sat for 15, 30, and many more years. i saw stuff walk in the door that would knock your sox off.

also if you hung out with the biggest of the big collectors of the 1974 era many would tell you not to touch anything after 1965 because they made to much of it and their would never be enough collectors to ever buy the stuff from the 65 and more recent period. the hobby growth just was not existing and some card sellers in the back of sporting news and bb card digest were pumping out sets every year to fill all the demand so who would their be to sell the 1965 and more recent cards to in the future? this was VERY logical based on their experience with the GLACIAL growth of the hobby in the 1950's and 60's. few entered the hobby because they did not know how to contact each other and due to social stigma. you did not brag about collecting to your co-worker, beer drinking buddies, team members, or fellow church members as they would think you quite weird. you could not move volume of older cards for cash, their was so little cash in the hobby. you could trade but before the hotel buying trips few people had much in the way of duplicates to trade. as such the hobby was kinda stuck before the hordes of cards were unleashed by the hotel buying trips.

i sold all of my cards by 1978 or so and life worked out quite well. it was a springboard in many ways, a heck of a LOT of fun, and a real education in economics, marketing, and business which all served me extremely well in the future.

hope this helps round out some perspective regarding your question:

do cards of today exist which were never tampered with?
the answer is unequivocally YES, lots of mt condition cards were saved from the scrap heap due to the hotel buying groups rescuing them in 1975 and 1976.

life is very good,

jsq

[mybuddyinc]

Agree with what Luke and Ken said -- scrap books, shoe boxes, etc.

I think :rolleyes: that, say cards that were produced in 1910, that are high grade today were high grade in 1915. Those were the ones NOT "played" with. The cards that are low grade today, again, were low grade by 1915. Those were the ones traded, shoved in pockets, went through the wash, etc., etc.

Although I mainly deal with lower to mid grade cards, I have handled a few higher grade ones. These cards are actually, imo, quite durable little pieces of card board. You would have to blatantly fold them in half to get a crease, or bang them very hard to mess up a corner. Conversely, once a "handled" card is wrinkled, a wrinkle can turn into a crease with more handling, as well as a corner ding turn into corner wear.

Well, that didn't add much.

[mechanicalman]

All great answers, guys, and very logical. I knew about scrapbooking, but I guess I thought (wrongly) that those mainly ended up as 1s and A's because of torn or glue-stained backs. But it makes sense that some of those were removed with no trace of the residue.

Thanks, jsq, for the history. Man that would have been fun to be a part of. Would make a great article or short story.

My faith is starting to be restored.

[sforaker]

Great topic. Fascinating and well articulated historical perspective, jsq, thank you. This perspective provides some heartening balanced perspective to the very legitimate concerns about trimming and altering.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So why is it that old time dealers who have handled countless thousands of T and E cards have told me they NEVER encountered cards that would grade 8 or 9? Or that it was an extremely rare occasion?

[JRO$!(]

I really appreciate your post and contribution to our hobby!

I believe you could easily write a large book filled w/adventures about

the hotel buying trips and friendships w/other card collector/dealers.

j

[jsq]

Peter,

i banged out the article relating what was found on the hotel buying trips and did not take the time to CLEARLY describe everything related to older cards condition. i will try to clear up a point on condition related to your question.

you are correct, their was not much in the way of 8 and 9 e and t cards ie pre 1930 stuff. from talking with knowledgable people i gather that the printing technology left something to be desired as the first problem. lots of cards from pre 1930 but the condition was much lower ie most stuff peaked out as best i can recall compared to today in the e 7 and 8 range. with lots of stuff psa 2 - 5.

the cards from if i would guess 1955- 1965 had tons of psa 8,9, and 10 material available to the hotel buying groups. you have to remember also, the cards the hotel buying groups sold in 1976, 1977, and 1978 were to collectors NOT KIDS. as such the stuff found in great condition ie pre 1960 era cards stayed in the condition they were found for the most part from those 1975 era hotel buying trips. they were saved for posterity by the hotel buying groups. as you drop back in years that grade availablility did of course continually slip. the older the card the weaker condition as one would expect.

nonetheless i have looked at the psa site and stats and would say i am not the least surprised by what they report. and then you also have sgc who has graded a lot of cards.

since i got out of cards for the most part in 1978 or so my knowledge of psa grades comes from the vicarious thrill i receive from viewing auction catalogs and looking at cards for sale on ebay. i am not a grading expert but have spent many hundreds of hours viewing cards online and in auction catalogs besides occasionally attending a national and meeting up with old acquaintances and have some understanding of modern grading.

my wife and i have donated the bulk of our wealth to charities including some non bb card related collections to various museums. we do not wish to own stuff anymore. been their done that. but that is not true with most people. some of the great bb card collections put together in the mid 70's are still in those collectors hands. i am talking about people who assembled primarily 1933 - 1965 sets in 1976 - 1978.

in regards to the comment that it was extremely rare to find e and t cards in psa 8 grade, i would say back in 1975 "seldom" to encounter what today would be an e or t card as a psa 8 would be an accurate description. but not extremely rare or even rare occasion to those who did a lot of hotel buying trips. some groups did upwards of 100 cities. in regards to hotel buying trips i was peanuts i did 3 as i got into it at the very tail end. the volume that was brought into the hobby was incredible and took years to work off. their was no way to sell all the cards for years to come that these hotel buying trips uncovered.

another thing many do not realize is that many great collections built in the 70's from these hotel buying trips are still in collectors hands and have never been slabbed. my friend mike, long since passed to the great bb diamond in the sky, sold what were likely his duplicate sets to mr mint and those were hailed as one of the great buys for condition of all time at the time in the 1990's.

my stuff was sold before the hobby took off, i needed the money and fortunately life worked out for me.

many others kept their cards that they purchased from the hotel buying group buyers and those cards, which were old cards in 1976, have not been seen by the hobby, ever! i have visited with some of my old friends over the years and some of them still have those cards they bought back in the mid 70's.

hope that helps clear up a bit.

jsq

So why is it that old time dealers who have handled countless thousands of T and E cards have told me they NEVER encountered cards that would grade 8 or 9? Or that it was an extremely rare occasion?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with you, 50s and 60s is an entirely different animal.

[whitehse]

to understand the answer to your question, some perspective below may help you.

i will just bang it out so please forgive grammer etc.

during the mid 1970's about 25 or 30 different groups of people travelled the country doing hotel buying trips. they took out ads in the local newspaper and said i am buying cards in your town, pre 1960 typically, come to xyz hotel on saturday and/or sunday and we will pay cash.

this was before any reasonable hobby card guide or price guide existed.

the hobby prior to this time period had experienced very slow but steady growth but still was extremely small relative to todays number of collectors. with the emergence of hobby papers such as trader speaks and sports collectors digest some information was finally emerging but pricing info was grudgingly shared, not until the beckett guides did good price info emerge to the masses.

as such many people with older cards did not place much value on them - even within the hobby. and this was correctly so at that time as the market was extremely thin. you could not move volume of quality older cards. there was very little cash in the hobby in 1974 and 1975.

in 1974 or 1975, i remember having fits moving a vg-ex set of 1941 play ball that i wanted $225 or $250 for and that was after a 2 day show in chicago (once a year show or twice a year - i don't recall when chicago area finally got 2 shows a year for its 7 million metro region). this was the only shows held in that metro of any consequence for the entire year at that time. other metros likewise had only 1 or two shows a year in 1974. finally a guy showed up near the end or after the show closed and said he would buy it and complained massively that his wife was going to chew his A** for spending so much at the show.

the volume of cards and the quality of cards that was acquired by these different buying hotel buying groups was truly of epic proportion. something few who were not part the buying groups could ever imagine. this is truly the catalyst of the hobby growth for many reasons including:

it finally gave sellers enough inventory for people to put more effort into the marketing of the hobby (and their now burgeoning inventory).

the local newspapers found this such an exotic idea that adults would purchase essentially kids toys and pay good cash to boot that it was a great story that ran in many papers. this in turn brought hundreds of thousands of collectors into the hobby with the knowledge that it was ok to collect childhood memories even if you were not a child. the newspapers often made fun of the collectors. it was quite difficult to collect cards as an adult, you were literally looked at as a bit "odd" and that is no exageration at the point in time. local media exposure covering these buying trips greatly increased the awareness of the hobby.

i could go on with lots of other catalysts this buying activity unleashed but let it be safe to say many of the pre 1960 cards in the hobby emanated from these hotel buying trips. they covered literally every state, canada, and venezuela. they provided the inventory for the majority of the original card stores.

one of my friends, mike, competed with me in these hotel buying trip ventures (he also lived in a town of 75,000 people and ran a weekly classified to buy cards in the local paper. for instance mike had about 50 mint (nm to mint ie psa 8,9,10 by todays grading) 1959 stan musials for instance because he kept the ones from his and his partners buying trips. stan was his childhood hero. think how many lesser grade musials were in the batches he handled. these 50 cards on these buying trips and classified ads (most came from the buying trips) came from the original owner or original owners families. the condition was all over the place as you can imagine but mike and this 1 hotel buying group did enough volume of purchases for mike to get about 50 nm-mt 59 musials. he had dibs on the musials but nonetheless this one guy from one buying group had this many at one time by 1976 or 1977. now extrapolate this back in time. the older stuff had lower volume available of couse but e, t, and r series cards from 1910 - 1941 were a lot more common showing up at these hotel buying trips then todays collectors would imagine. and the condition in some cases was factory new for all intents and purposes. the older the lesser condition in general of course.

one thing to understand is that virtually nobody cared about condition as we know it today. my friend mike was far and away the first person i ever met who cared about gloss, printer marks, and centering. everyone wanted nice clean cards and would always take the better centered better condition. condition was not a major concern. the key then was to fill the missing number and most never bothered to upgrade and since i personally knew numerous people with collections that would have been in the top 20 collections EVER assembled before big money moved into the hobby in the 1990's i know what was in those collections and handled their cards personally -literally handled. with my friend mike that included mint sets of topps bowmans, play balls and goudeys (no lajoie) not to mention lots of e and t stuff that ranged from ex to mt but mike did not have complete sets of all the major e and t sets like he did the r sets.

beer can collecting was getting far more press at that time and had the added benefit that people did not think you were "weird" as an adult collecting beer cans since it was macho. the thing that stunted and essentially kept beer can collecting a small hobby is that unlike bb cards no giant hordes ever continually turned up. no hotel buying trips turned up anything if hotel buying trips even ever occured with beer cans. thus their was no incentive for the hobby to grow into the volume like it did with bb cards. no inventory = no business/hobby.

beer can collecting started later then bb card collecting yet it had 10 times the number of collectors by 1975? by 1975 beer can collecting had 6 or 7 major publishing books in full color whereas the bb card hobby had sortof 1. the beer can collecting hobby dwarfed the bb card hobby in terms of adult participants.

it is a good perspective to understand why the beer can collecting hobby died in infancy and why the bb card hobby skyrocketed. understand the hotel buying trips and what it unleashed and you will know a lot about the bb card hobby.

understanding the volume and QUALITY of cards turned up AND SAVED for the future of the hobby by these pioneers in the bb card collecting field is a key to understanding the sudden growth of the hobby starting in 1976 and moving forward and likewise the volume of cards led to the emergence of the price guide which took the hobby to another level.

no hotel buying trips = no excess inventory,
no influx of inventory = far fewer cards for collectors to collect
no hotel buying trips = no emergence of price guides for mass consumption
no hotel buying trips = no mass media exposure
no hotel buying trips = a whole lot of todays cards would have ended up in the trash heap.
no hotel buying trips = well you are starting to grasp the importance of the hotel buying trips and the vision the early hobby pioneers had which provided the catalyst for the emergence of this fun hobby.

you can make a good case that the catalyst for the entire bb card hobby was the hotel buying trips. without the hotel buying trips very few of the collectors of today would be in this hobby.

do lots of cards exist today that are truly mint or nm condition that were never touched or tampered with by card doctors? the answer is definately yes - i saw them and handled them in the 1973 - 1978 era.

their were a surprising number of kids who took care of their cards and just assembled number runs, or sets, if they had enough cash and then put the cards in a box where they sat for 15, 30, and many more years. i saw stuff walk in the door that would knock your sox off.

also if you hung out with the biggest of the big collectors of the 1974 era many would tell you not to touch anything after 1965 because they made to much of it and their would never be enough collectors to ever buy the stuff from the 65 and more recent period. the hobby growth just was not existing and some card sellers in the back of sporting news and bb card digest were pumping out sets every year to fill all the demand so who would their be to sell the 1965 and more recent cards to in the future? this was VERY logical based on their experience with the GLACIAL growth of the hobby in the 1950's and 60's. few entered the hobby because they did not know how to contact each other and due to social stigma. you did not brag about collecting to your co-worker, beer drinking buddies, team members, or fellow church members as they would think you quite weird. you could not move volume of older cards for cash, their was so little cash in the hobby. you could trade but before the hotel buying trips few people had much in the way of duplicates to trade. as such the hobby was kinda stuck before the hordes of cards were unleashed by the hotel buying trips.

i sold all of my cards by 1978 or so and life worked out quite well. it was a springboard in many ways, a heck of a LOT of fun, and a real education in economics, marketing, and business which all served me extremely well in the future.

hope this helps round out some perspective regarding your question:

do cards of today exist which were never tampered with?
the answer is unequivocally YES, lots of mt condition cards were saved from the scrap heap due to the hotel buying groups rescuing them in 1975 and 1976.

life is very good,

jsq

I have to agree with what was said here.

I was at those Chicagoland shows in the mid to late 70's and could not believe there was a whole room full of people selling cards that a ten year old like me had never seen. Those were indeed magical times to a young kid who was more worried about completing his own "modern" sets such as the '75 or '76 Topps cards to worry about Play Balls or T cards. It was incredible to see all of the diversity those shows brought but my sets were where I concentrated on.

Fast forward a few years and I went on to convince my dad and an older collector to have a card show in our garage. Now my parents house was in a very rural area, 50 miles north of Chicago but the thought was that a few well placed want ads and signs on the highway would draw people in. Thos eearly card shows were an incredible success in that when people saw we were paying cash for their cards they were lined up out the door waiting to sell. Cards in paper grocery bags, cigar boxes and even Velveeta cheese boxes came to us and we bought every one. I remember after our first show I walked away with a full 1955 Topps set with a Koufax, Snider and a number of other stars left over. Conditions varied but for the most part these cards were ex or ex+

We did have the opportunity to purchase one man's childhood collection that consisted of 1960to 1966 full Topps sets, all stored in Velveeta cheese boxes. This man took meticulous care of his cards and without a doubt most, if not all the cards were in mint condition. We paid a huge sum of money for this set back in 1980 (500 bucks) with me selling off most of my collection before grading came into the hobby. I still remember selling my collection to Kit Young at one of the Chicago Nationals and he did not bat an eye giving me my asking price. I remember like it was yesterday, hearing him tell me that I knew how to grade cards and priced my sets accordingly.

I remember another elderly gentleman that walked in with a box of cards that he wanted an idea as to what they were worth. I opened the box and saw that there had to be 400+ 1933 Goudey cards all in at least VG to ex+ condition. I took him to a separate room and we sat there and put a near set of these cards together. As we were sorting I explained about the Nap Lajoie card and how very difficult and valuable it was and he stopped sorting, looked at me and said..."you mean like this one?" In his hand he was holding a beautiful Lajoie that, to me would easily grade a six or seven. I tried to purchase the lot from him but he said it was going back in the safe deposit box for his grandchildren to determine what to do with them.

I have no doubt that these pristine examples of cards are still in collectors hands and in collections stored away in attics from days gone by. There are still many cards and other pieces of memorabilia squirreled away that have yet to come to the light of the hobby

[Luke]

So why is it that old time dealers who have handled countless thousands of T and E cards have told me they NEVER encountered cards that would grade 8 or 9? Or that it was an extremely rare occasion?

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

[Peter_Spaeth]

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

Right, and the OP's question was about 8s and 9s.

"Since re-entering the hobby a few years ago, the thing that has most blown my mind is the existence of extremely high grade vintage cards. I'm talking about T206s in 8 and 9s, Goudeys in 9, and even a '34 Goudey Gehrig in Gem MT 10 coming to auction from Heritage."

[hangman62]

Jsq

well said !

[Laxcat]

My dad was one of those guys. He'd place an add in the town he was in and BAM!!! He said stuff would come in that you wouldn't believe. People would bring in t's like they were reams of paper.

[jmb]

Thank you for that informative post jsq.

[Jantz]

Agree with what Luke and Ken said -- scrap books, shoe boxes, etc.

I think :rolleyes: that, say cards that were produced in 1910, that are high grade today were high grade in 1915. Those were the ones NOT "played" with. The cards that are low grade today, again, were low grade by 1915. Those were the ones traded, shoved in pockets, went through the wash, etc., etc.

Although I mainly deal with lower to mid grade cards, I have handled a few higher grade ones. These cards are actually, imo, quite durable little pieces of card board. You would have to blatantly fold them in half to get a crease, or bang them very hard to mess up a corner. Conversely, once a "handled" card is wrinkled, a wrinkle can turn into a crease with more handling, as well as a corner ding turn into corner wear.

Well, that didn't add much.

I agree with the NOT "played" with theory.

Growing up in Ohio meant snow on the ground on Christmas day. So on Christmas I would open up my toys, maybe assemble them or put the decals on and place them back in their box for when Spring came and I could go outside and play with them or I would play with them inside the house and when Spring came, I was ready for something else like riding my bike or fishing. So my toys received little abuse, if any.

My Mother (Thanks Mom! :)) kept all my childhood toys and sports cards.

So I decided that over this winter I would sell my childhood toys. I called my Mother and told her that I would be getting all my toys out of her attic and selling them. Some of the toys I brought home were 40 year old toys still in their original box.

Finding 80+ year old cards in near-mint condition doesn't sound crazy to me.


Jantz

[trdcrdkid]

Prompted by a query on this board from jsq, I recently went through every issue from the first five years of Sports Collectors Digest, from its inception in October 1973 to late 1978. (My recent post about 1973 card auction prices was one result.) One thing that SCD often did in those days was reprint newspaper articles about card collecting, of which there were a lot in the mid-70s as the hobby was starting to take off. Many of these articles focused on a single collector and appeared in his local paper. It wasn't unusual for these articles to mention that the collector had 20,000 or 50,000 cards, and several of them mention the hotel buying trips. I was just a kid at the time, and I remember hearing about such things after I got seriously interested in collecting in 1975-76, but there was no way I could have afforded anything like that on my 50 cents a week allowance.

One other interesting thing I found was articles in the mid-1970s decrying inflation in the hobby, even though any inflation up to that time was nothing compared to what was to come a few years later. Dave Meiners, a columnist for SCD, wrote a long two-part article in early 1974 ripping all the newcomers who didn't really care about the hobby and were causing prices to go up. He included a chart showing the year-by-year rise in prices of common cards from a bunch of popular sets, going from 1966 to December 1973. (I don't have it in front of me, but I think the average price of T206 commons went from something like 14 cents to 76 cents during that time, according to Meiners.) Then Dave Goldsman wrote a long follow-up article for the June 30, 1976 SCD, in which he extended Meiners' chart by going back through hobby publications from the previous two years and calculating common card prices for each of 60 sets every month from January 1974 to May 1976, and using these to create a "baseball card price index" with January 1974 being 100. He found that the index was at 161 in May 1976, meaning that card prices on average had risen by 60% in a little over two years, though individual sets varied quite a bit. The average T206 common sold for 83.7 cents in January 1974 but only 80 cents in January 1976. He had a chart showing the average price of some popular sets (1950-55 Bowman, 1951-74 Topps, 1959 Fleer, T206, 1970-72 Kelloggs) every three months over the two year period.

Three months after Goldsman's article, the September 30, 1976 SCD had an announcement of Jim Beckett's card price survey, which he was going to distribute at the upcoming Twin Cities card convention and by mail to anybody who wanted to fill it out. The results of Beckett's first survey were published in SCD in 1977, and the results of the second one were published in 1978, before Beckett and Dennis Eckes started publishing the Sport Americana Baseball Card Price Guide in 1979.

Oh, and Bill Mastro was all over SCD in 1976, with ads in almost every issue and an occasional article. In the September 15, 1976 issue he was selling a T206 set in vg condition, minus Wagner, Plank, and Magie, for $900.

[1880nonsports]

Thanks :)

[xplainer]

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one. :eek:

[jsq]

yes i want to publicly thank some specific very generous members of the board (i already thanked them in private):

some for helping me hunt up some of my old advertisements from 73 - 77 era from trader speaks and sports collectors digest. a really big shout out of thanks to trdcrdkid who took the time to go through MANY old issues of scd and sent me copies of my old adverts and related dates. my wife is building a scrap book and these are a nice addition to travel down memory lane.

also thanks to the other board members who looked through their runs of various hobby pubs. we covered many of the issues from that time.

also a big shout out of thanks to TCMA who metioned he had a bunch of old auction catalogs he wanted to get rid of and as a result i replaced the ones i had donated and or tossed a few years back when i moved.

this board has been most friendly and generous and i am happy to try to repay the kindness they have shown me.

all the best,
jsq

[jsq]

really neat to see the research you listed from past hobby issues. i provides some interesting perspective.

thanks and all the best,
jsq

Prompted by a query on this board from jsq, I recently went through every issue from the first five years of Sports Collectors Digest, from its inception in October 1973 to late 1978. (My recent post about 1973 card auction prices was one result.) One thing that SCD often did in those days was reprint newspaper articles about card collecting, of which there were a lot in the mid-70s as the hobby was starting to take off. Many of these articles focused on a single collector and appeared in his local paper. It wasn't unusual for these articles to mention that the collector had 20,000 or 50,000 cards, and several of them mention the hotel buying trips. I was just a kid at the time, and I remember hearing about such things after I got seriously interested in collecting in 1975-76, but there was no way I could have afforded anything like that on my 50 cents a week allowance.

One other interesting thing I found was articles in the mid-1970s decrying inflation in the hobby, even though any inflation up to that time was nothing compared to what was to come a few years later. Dave Meiners, a columnist for SCD, wrote a long two-part article in early 1974 ripping all the newcomers who didn't really care about the hobby and were causing prices to go up. He included a chart showing the year-by-year rise in prices of common cards from a bunch of popular sets, going from 1966 to December 1973. (I don't have it in front of me, but I think the average price of T206 commons went from something like 14 cents to 76 cents during that time, according to Meiners.) Then Dave Goldsman wrote a long follow-up article for the June 30, 1976 SCD, in which he extended Meiners' chart by going back through hobby publications from the previous two years and calculating common card prices for each of 60 sets every month from January 1974 to May 1976, and using these to create a "baseball card price index" with January 1974 being 100. He found that the index was at 161 in May 1976, meaning that card prices on average had risen by 60% in a little over two years, though individual sets varied quite a bit. The average T206 common sold for 83.7 cents in January 1974 but only 80 cents in January 1976. He had a chart showing the average price of some popular sets (1950-55 Bowman, 1951-74 Topps, 1959 Fleer, T206, 1970-72 Kelloggs) every three months over the two year period.

Three months after Goldsman's article, the September 30, 1976 SCD had an announcement of Jim Beckett's card price survey, which he was going to distribute at the upcoming Twin Cities card convention and by mail to anybody who wanted to fill it out. The results of Beckett's first survey were published in SCD in 1977, and the results of the second one were published in 1978, before Beckett and Dennis Eckes started publishing the Sport Americana Baseball Card Price Guide in 1979.

Oh, and Bill Mastro was all over SCD in 1976, with ads in almost every issue and an occasional article. In the September 15, 1976 issue he was selling a T206 set in vg condition, minus Wagner, Plank, and Magie, for $900.

[Tim Kindler]

Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You.:) It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

Tim Kindler

[Peter_Spaeth]

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one. :eek:

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

[brass_rat]

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

[brianp-beme]

A couple of thoughts about the Polo Grounds card. As Peter mentioned previously a good reason why there are so many high grade ones around is that this set was issued with rounded corners, and thus severely minimizing the possibility of corner damage.

Secondly these cards were not issued with product (minimizing the possibility of damage), but instead came as part of a deck. I imagine there were plenty of decks that were barely or not even touched, and those cards remained well protected within their pack through the decades.

Brian


This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one. :eek:

[Jay Wolt]

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1254062009.jpg

[Stampsfan]

To JSQ and to all who contributed to this and took the time to share their knowledge and memories. This is a wonderful forum, and the reason is obvious in this thread.

[mybuddyinc]

Yes, great stories and history, very informative .........

This thread almost makes you want to take out a "buying old cards" ad in your local newspaper :)

[glchen]

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

+1!

[ls7plus]

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

+1--what more is there to say?

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

+1--what more is there to say?

Larry

Plenty because most people, I think, don't believe it. How great (or not) would it be if some day one of our beloved superstar card doctors actually confessed the extent of what they (and others) have done in terms of crimes against the hobby.

[ls7plus]

Plenty because most people, I think, don't believe it. How great (or not) would it be if some day one of our beloved superstar card doctors actually confessed the extent of what they (and others) have done in terms of crimes against the hobby.

I agree with you, Pete. Would create quite a stir, wouldn't it? Although I think those that don't believe it are largely those shelling out huge sums for 8's, 9's and 10's from the '50's on back to the nineteen teens, at least. What was Mastro's figure? 90% of vintage cards in very high grades have been altered? Sure, there are some high grade examples that are legitimate due to origins discussed at length earlier in this thread, but just as certainly there are large numbers that have had "a little help," as I believe you are fond of saying, to get those grades. Personally, as far as pre-war is concerned, I'll stick with what is very scarce to extremely rare, with the best eye appeal I can find or live with. Cards such as my 1923 Lections Ruth (SGC poor), 1907 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb (PSA 5) and '39 V351 Ted Williams rookie (SGC Ex) are just some examples of what I seek out.

Best wishes in your own endeavors,

Larry

[xplainer]

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

:eek:
Still.

[xplainer]

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1254062009.jpg

Alright, I get the point. :p

[trdcrdkid]

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/90f41ca9-88f0-4966-bdf1-01cf00769e60.jpg

[ullmandds]

What is this "" other Wagner pose that they discussed in this article ??

[trdcrdkid]

What is this "" other Wagner pose that they discussed in this article ??

It was a card with an E95 Wagner front and a T206 Piedmont 350 back that briefly made a big splash in the hobby in late 1975 and early 1976. Below is an article about it that was reprinted in the following issue of SCD (2/15/76). A couple of months after this, one of the owners decided to try soaking it in water, and the E95 back showed through. It was just an E95 Wagner with a Piedmont back pasted on.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_65.jpg

[Iron Horse]

Great read and subject matter. I for one want to believe that these cards from the early 1900's did survive in 8's and 9's. However, i feel that at least half of them are somehow trimmed since over sized cards were not uncommon.
Hope i will be proven wrong.
Wonder if the card doctors out there reading this thread are falling off their chairs by laughing so hard :(

[CW]

Just to give an idea of how some cards survived so well over the years, here are some photos of Lionel Carter's collection still housed on their pages. Notice the removable tabs holding the corners. While not every old school collector paid so much attention to condition, Mr. Carter's collection shows how some of those high grade cards can still exist (Another great way to preserve a card over the years is to have it hidden between the pages of a book).

[1880nonsports]

in the SCD article where it says Tom used government paper restorers using sophisticated equipment. While it was long before today's TPA's and certified court examiners - it reveals incompetence and/or fraud aren't a modern invention.

[trdcrdkid]

I love the part in the SCD article where it says Tom used government paper restorers using sophisticated equipment. While it was long before today's TPA's and certified court examiners - it reveals incompetence and/or fraud aren't a modern invention.

My assumption is that it was incompetence rather than fraud. Or not even incompetence, really -- maybe they were just asked to test whether it was old cardboard, and they correctly reported that it was, but they didn't consider the possibility that it was an old, skinned T206 back attached to an old E95. The alternation may well have been done back around 1910, for all anybody knows. I wonder where that card is now -- it would be interesting to have somebody from one of the TPGs take a look at it with their modern equipment, to get a better idea how it came to be.

[conor912]

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/90f41ca9-88f0-4966-bdf1-01cf00769e60.jpg

"Gum card collecting is third only to coin and stamp collecting". Boy have times changed.

[toppcat]

It's like anything else in the hobby. Some high grade examples have survived through sheer luck, others through preservation and still others through deception. Since there has been a hobby there has been fraud, although some percentage of pre-war trims were probably not done with the intent to deceive.

[jsq]

in the upper right corner of the this hotel buying trip article it is hard to read but i think an interesting comment is made that puts the hobby in perspective.
i will paraphrase since i cannot copy paste from the photo of the article:

people called the hotel george was set up at where george was buying cards. most of the calls were about recent cards (this article is 1976). too many of those were minted and the distribution of those recent cards was excellent so they are not worth messing with. he usually only buys pre 1957.

once again this highlights the thought process of many collectors of that era. the prior times the hobby had grown at GLACIAL speeds and cards of the 60's were just to common to ever be worth anything.

after all, how would new collectors even enter the hobby?? was the thought process as their were no old cards in quantity for sale. george lyons was fairly new to the hobby but had excellent contacts within the hobby and also wrote a column for sports collectors digest. as an aside georges father was a very famous writer for a new york paper and as a child george had many famous people over to his fathers house and went out to eat with them, ie famous sports, radio, theatre, and movie personalities etc.

the hobby that collectors have known since the early 80's and even maybe the late 70's is nothing like pre 1975. until the cards flooded into the hobby with the hotel buying trips the inventory available for sale just did not encourage new collectors to jump in. their was no room for new collectors except in that most recent 15 or so years worth of cards which were shunned by advanced collectors. ie 1960 - 1975 era cards. and advanced collectors did not respect those sets other then to have 1 in their collection as a bb fan not so much as a collector.

you could have the biggest wallet in the room and it meant nothing pre 1973 because very few collectors would SELL their few duplicates and few had many duplicates except for the most recent 15 or so years and the most recent 1960 - 1974 cards were perceived as somewhat common and never going anywhere in price so why bother with a duplicate set of 1960 - 1974. collectors horded their pre 1960 cards in order to trade with others because you could not get most advanced collectors to sell their pre 1960 cards they would only trade.

THIS CAUSED A SORT OF HOBBY GRIDLOCK.

as i mentioned in an earlier post you could not always easily sell old stuff because no money was in the hobby at many of the very few shows that existed. and as just mentioned above you could not buy because the better stuff, in general the collectors would not part with. these seemingly two completely opposite statements reflected the GRIDLOCK OF THE HOBBY PRIOR TO THE HOTEL BUYING TRIPS UNLEASHING SO MUCH QUALITY STUFF. it was a weird moment in time to say the least. today where you just go to ebay or an auction house and write a check. it is difficult to explain and i am not trying to be confusing just trying to convey some of the issues of the era.

once again, based on the collecting experience of the 1940's, 50,s and 60's hoarding and using only for trade your duplicates of pre 1960 cards made perfect sense in 1973. these guys had scrounged for cards for decades and found no way to get what they sought. so if you showed up in 1974 and said i have a million dollars and i want to buy a bunch of cards the response was pretty much - so what, everyone wants to buy but their are few sellers of any quantity. not until the hotel buying trip concept evolved did excess quality card and quantity arrive.

and back to the original question. some kids were just orderly and neat all their lives and if their collections showed up at the hotel buying trip then the cards looked pack fresh so to speak. now a 1910 era pack fresh card may have a lot of printing/manufacturing problems preventing a high a grade but that is a different animal to a careless kid playing with his cards.

though collectors in the early and mid 70's did not focus much on condition other then if they had a few cards in their paw at the same moment they would obviously keep the better of the 2 or 3. as such their is much higher quality cards in old collections then is reflected in the registry by the fact that when these collections were assembled they were from original owners or original owners families for the most part in the pre 1976 era and the cards they did get to acquire their was no incentive to tamper with.

the different grades just did not mean that much once the card was what was called then excellent ie psa 6 vs screaming psa 10 of the current era just did not have much of a difference in price if any. virtually nobody cared.

more perspective, years ago when i personally had more cards of some sets in my hand at one time then exist on the total psa registry. that is no bs. the r314 cream colored canadian wide pen as they were known in the 70's. i bought 3 plus sets in 1974 from a walk in at the chicago show. their were 25 cards per set - feller, dimaggio, gehringer, etc and i had 3 complete sets plus some dupes about 80 - 90 or so cards. the psa site lists them as 1937 wide pens or some such thing, i do not recall exactly - it has been a while since i saw looked. the set i am talking about is the cream colored canadian issue not the much more common r 314 wide pens.

the r 314 cream colored canadian set was EXTREMELY desirable at that moment in time. virtually none of the advanced collectors had a complete set and they basically frothed over my find. it was far and away the largest find of that issue up to that time and likely ever. premiums were the rage for the advanced collectors. at the time much more desirable then the goudey cards which they all had complete sets of.

SO I PERSONALLY SOLD THESE CARDS TO HIGH END COLLECTORS AND THEIR ARE NOW FEWER SLABBED CARDS THEN I PERSONALLY SOLD THEN THAT GIVES SOME PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT LURKS IN OLD COLLECTIONS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN SLABBED. each of the collectors i sold to were advanced. by 1974 it was becoming apparent that bb cards were worth $$ so their heirs would not have tosssed these collections in the trash and those collections will eventually end up in the hobby and then some really nice cards will be slabbed. also, you can be assured other collectors already had some of these r 314 cream colored canadians because i helped many people increase the number in their exisiting set and likewise you can be assured that more would likely have found their way into the hobby with the hotel buying trips. so their are lots more cards in the hobby then some suspect would be the correct conclusion and likewise some of these cards are in superb condition.

of the FEW collectors that did upgrade, MAJOR EMPHASIS ON FEW, those few constantly upgraded ie mike keasler, lionel carter and a handful of others. i personally held mike keaslers cards in my hands and he was a friend. likewise i personally held lionel carters cards in my hands and that was at the mastro auction house. lionel and i did not meet as best as i can recall other then his probably passing by my table at early and mid 70's chicago card shows. lionel is the collector i most admire (i have read about him and discussed him with other old time collectors) and i wish i had had brains enough to seek lionel out and talk to him and tell him how much i admire his approach to the hobby. i do own one of lionels cards which i bought at auction, as a way to honor him.

and since i held both collections (mike keaslers and lionel carters) in my hands i can assure you that mikes collection from a quality point of view was right up their with lionel's from 1933 forward. lionels collection was deeper into the e and t (mike was about 20 years younger then lionel and started about 20 years later if i was to guess) but mikes collection of e and t was no slouch in that area either. mike is long since passed. in the 90's mike sold A collection to mr mint. knowing mike i would not be surprised if that collection was his duplicate sets and what was sold was hailed as pretty special at that time, and like i said i would not be surprised if what was sold was primarily duplicate sets leaving the ultra primo to ??????

do i wish i had kept my cards instead of selling in the 70's? on some levels sure on other levels they served a purpose which was most fortuitous for me. so no worries and no regrets. besides i would have kept the wrong stuff. the big focus of the collectors who were advanced in that era were the regionals, the 1930's premium cards like r314, r 312 etc. the regionals and premiums were the truly rare stuff and still are from a known quantity in existence point of view, but rarity is not the key to price as we have all learned. desirability is. their are way more 1938 goudey heads up of dimaggio then their are of the r 314 dimaggio but which sells for more today the rarer (in terms of known qty) r314 or the much more common goudey heads up of dimaggio? perspective is everything and what made perfect sense at one moment of time does not necessarily seem logical or can even be called stupid by those who were not in the shoes of that era making the real time decision.

some of the major collectors who did reguarly buy from me would be stan mcclure, dick ruess, frank schluetter - frank likely had more babe ruth cards then anyone ever other then goudey mfg he bought everything from 1933 - 48 with ruth on it, he had hundreds of them, don steinbach, beginner roger marth who developed into a major collector before selling to mr mint, occasionally dwight chapin, mike keasler, rich egan. the above were all extreme heavy weights in the early and mid 70's and numerous others that i have long since forgotten their names.


some perspective on the lack of respect for condition and grading, i think it was MAJOR MAJOR collector buck barker?? who used to put his initials or some such thing on the back of all of his cards!!! even the ones he was using as trade bait. and this was into the 60's and maybe the 70's.

perspective is all clear with "time".

the hotel buying trips and the cascade of QUALITY HIGH GRADE OLDER cards saved from the trash heap changed the world for the hobby.

best of collecting,
jsq

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/90f41ca9-88f0-4966-bdf1-01cf00769e60.jpg

[TCMA]

Just to give an idea of how some cards survived so well over the years, here are some photos of Lionel Carter's collection still housed on their pages. Notice the removable tabs holding the corners.

Fantastic photos there, thanks for posting those. This is exactly how my father kept his vintage cards in the 60's and 70's. In-fact I just threw away a lot of his old albums and archived what's left into more modern protection methods.

[trdcrdkid]

george lyons was fairly new to the hobby but had excellent contacts within the hobby and also wrote a column for sports collectors digest. as an aside georges father was a very famous writer for a new york paper and as a child george had many famous people over to his fathers house and went out to eat with them, ie famous sports, radio, theatre, and movie personalities etc.

Yes, George Lyons' father Leonard Lyons was a longtime columnist for the New York Post, and his brother is the film critic Jeffrey Lyons. His father's column was called "The Lyons Den", and George used variants of that name for his column in SCD and other hobby publications, as mentioned at the end of the article I posted. His nepher Ben Lyons (Jeffrey's son) also uses the "Lyons Den" name for his podcast.

[SAllen2556]

[QUOTE=Tim Kindler;1490573]Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You.:) It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

A big +1!

Detroit Free Press, August 30, 1975
http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz32/sallen2556/Detroit_Free_Press_Sat__Aug_30__1975__zpshz6jjjgr. jpg

[jsq]

notice what the advert wanted, mostly regionals and of course the ultra rare "gowdys" which are the rarer version of goudeys and little known by todays collectors!

(just massively kidding on that last bit, it is a typo in the below listed hotel buying trip advert. the adverts were sometimes called into the paper via phone rather then sending "advertising copy" to the paper so you could get some interesting spelling results.

post 1960 items and even earlier topps cards were not always a big priority in most of the adverts for hotel buying trips from that era, rob lifson was highlighting his desire to purchase regionals. (regionals and premiums were the status stuff in the hobby at that moment in time along with e and t cards). bowmans were pretty exiciting also. but the advert does not even mention them.

i remember frothing over dan dee, glendale, and rodeo meats back then.

you will find 1 or more adverts similiar to this in every paper in the country in 1975 and 1976. hotel buying groups or individuals showed up in every city with over 100,000 metro and in many smaller cities. the hotel buying groups also showed up in many canadian cities and even some in venezuela. often different groups would show up in the same town throughout the year. sometimes you got skunked because of arriving late.

regards,
jsq

[QUOTE=Tim Kindler;1490573]Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You.:) It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

A big +1!

Detroit Free Press, August 30, 1975
http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz32/sallen2556/Detroit_Free_Press_Sat__Aug_30__1975__zpshz6jjjgr. jpg

[1880nonsports]

Don Steinbach..........

[trdcrdkid]

Rip Don Steinbach..........

When I was heavy into my first phase of collecting in the late 70s and early 80s, once or twice a year (usually on my birthday and maybe my brother's birthday) my parents would take a few of us to Pat Quinn and Don Steinbach's Sports Collector's Store on the South Side of Chicago. It was one of my favorite places to go, because there were still very few card shops at that time, and they had all kinds of great stuff. After I got back into the hobby in the early 90s and they had moved the store to La Grange, I went there a few more times, now with a bit more money in my pocket. The last time, I bought Don Steinbach's run of annual Beckett guides from 1979 to 1990 (including both 1979 cover variants and a hardcover 1980) and his first, second, and third editions of the Sports Collector's Bible, which he had advertised in SCD as being for sale. I know I've mentioned this before on here, but since Don's name came up, I figured it was worth mentioning again.

[trdcrdkid]

Speaking of Don Steinbach, I just found another article about the hotel buying trips of the mid-70s, this one focusing on Eric Lange, Don Steinbach, and John Rumierz. It was reprinted from the Baltimore Sun in the Sports Collectors Digest of 10/31/75, and a quick Google search revealed that the story originally ran in the Sun on September 22, 1975. (Below my scan of the story from SCD, I've given a link to a picture of the three men from the Sun's online archives, which presumably accompanied the story.)

What's interesting about this story is that it quotes two unnamed "local collectors" who derisively referred to the three men as "dealers", and complained about how the dealers were ruining the hobby by "forcing prices up to ridiculous levels". I would dispute that claim, because people like Lange, Steinbach, and Rumierz weren't forcing prices anywhere -- they were providing liquidity and bringing a lot more cards into the organized hobby, as jsq notes, and were riding the beginning of a wave of increased demand due largely to demographic factors, as baby boomers entered their prime earning years and sought to recapture their youth through sports memorabilia.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/IMG_20160113_0001.jpg

Link to picture of Lange, Steinbach, and Rumierz:
http://baltimoresun.imagefortress.com/search/asset_details/173434?page=231&query=%40iptc_byline+HOTZ&results_index=23

[jsq]

Pat Quinn, one of the smartest guys in the hobby and also one of the most knowledgable people in the hobby. Pat had some great stories about growing up on the south side of chitown. what Pat has not seen in the sports memorabilia field and cards probably ain't worth seeing.

Don had an awesome personal collection which i also personally held and perused. his wife Henny was a saint putting up with the collection/collectors. i ran into Henny many years later when i occasionally bounced back into the hobby to see old friends, Henny was a real quality human.

In 1974 or so took a friend over to see Don's collection and Don was not home. it was a saturday as i recall and don was out playing baseball appropriately enough. Henny just let us head to the basement where i showed my non collector friend what, at that time, was, and still would be one of the most comprehensive collections ever assembled. Dons collection was dispersed many years ago also as i recall after his unexpected passing. don had awesome runs of complete sets of nearly everything from 1933 forward issued by goudey, leaf, playball, bowman and topps, post cereal, bazooka, etc in addition to LOTS of complete sets from the e and t era. no lajoie, wagner or plank, when i saw his collection but he may have added them later. Don is long since passed. Don, like most collectors of that era was not a big condition fanatic. sure don upgraded haggy stuff and had huge volume go through his hands due to the hotel buying trips but he was not fanatical about condition as one of his partners, keasler was. also Don had even more complete sets of 1930's premiums and regionals from the 40's and 50's then keasler, which was saying a lot.

here again back to the topic of the existence of older cards that have not been altered. with don's cards, like all big time collectors of that era, it was all original stuff that he acquired directly from the original owner or the family of that owner, that rated vg to mt which don acquired as an adult collector. some of this stuff was acquired by the original collector and put in a box and never played with, thus pack fresh so to speak even 60 years later. other then the wagner, plank, and lajoie their was so little money in the rarest of cards that no one had an incentive to alter or play with the cards that were being acquired in the early and mid 70's.

a mint set of 52 topps walked into the philly show in 75 or 76 and went to auction and brought $1,000 at auction with a room full of collectors. gar, from nj bought that set.

i am not sure when don started collecting sets straight out of packs, if i was to guess mid 1950's aprox and after that date he of course would have awesome pack fresh condition because that was when i would guess he started opening packs for his own sets. once again the printing quality of cards from the 50's and 60's left something to be desired but their are collectors who assembled their sets from packs and never played with the cards. a lot of original quality older cards, got into advanced collectors hands.

fun memories of lots of cards, one neat aspect of the memory is when you went through another persons high end collection in the early and mid 70's, you were actually holding the cards, not a slab.

i have one card today in a slab, a slabbed card from the lionel carter collection and i think the slab is pretty neat in the respect that i can handle it with no concern of damaging the card.
i also have about 20 late 1960's yankees i found in an old scrapbook of mine haggy, but they were mine!

best of collecting,
jsq

When I was heavy into my first phase of collecting in the late 70s and early 80s, once or twice a year (usually on my birthday and maybe my brother's birthday) my parents would take a few of us to Pat Quinn and Don Steinbach's Sports Collector's Store on the South Side of Chicago. It was one of my favorite places to go, because there were still very few card shops at that time, and they had all kinds of great stuff. After I got back into the hobby in the early 90s and they had moved the store to La Grange, I went there a few more times, now with a bit more money in my pocket. The last time, I bought Don Steinbach's run of annual Beckett guides from 1979 to 1990 (including both 1979 cover variants and a hardcover 1980) and his first, second, and third editions of the Sports Collector's Bible, which he had advertised in SCD as being for sale. I know I've mentioned this before on here, but since Don's name came up, I figured it was worth mentioning again.

[Leon]

Thanks for all if the hobby knowledge, sir. As I always say, I feel there is a ton of new to the hobby cards just waiting to be found. And Some of those will be pre-war and in great shape. It helps make collecting exciting... Ya' never know what is right around the corner....

Pat Quinn, one of the smartest guys in the hobby and also one of the most knowledgable people in the hobby. Pat had some great stories about growing up on the south side of chitown. what Pat has not seen in the sports memorabilia field and cards probably ain't worth seeing.

Don had an awesome personal collection which i also personally held and perused. his wife Henny was a saint putting up with the collection/collectors. i ran into Henny many years later when i occasionally bounced back into the hobby to see old friends, Henny was a real quality human.

In 1974 or so took a friend over to see Don's collection and Don was not home. it was a saturday as i recall and don was out playing baseball appropriately enough. Henny just let us head to the basement where i showed my non collector friend what, at that time, was, and still would be one of the most comprehensive collections ever assembled. Dons collection was dispersed many years ago also as i recall after his unexpected passing. don had awesome runs of complete sets of nearly everything from 1933 forward issued by goudey, leaf, playball, bowman and topps, post cereal, bazooka, etc in addition to LOTS of complete sets from the e and t era. no lajoie, wagner or plank, when i saw his collection but he may have added them later. Don is long since passed. Don, like most collectors of that era was not a big condition fanatic. sure don upgraded haggy stuff and had huge volume go through his hands due to the hotel buying trips but he was not fanatical about condition as one of his partners, keasler was. also Don had even more complete sets of 1930's premiums and regionals from the 40's and 50's then keasler, which was saying a lot.

here again back to the topic of the existence of older cards that have not been altered. with don's cards, like all big time collectors of that era, it was all original stuff that he acquired directly from the original owner or the family of that owner, that rated vg to mt which don acquired as an adult collector. some of this stuff was acquired by the original collector and put in a box and never played with, thus pack fresh so to speak even 60 years later. other then the wagner, plank, and lajoie their was so little money in the rarest of cards that no one had an incentive to alter or play with the cards that were being acquired in the early and mid 70's.

a mint set of 52 topps walked into the philly show in 75 or 76 and went to auction and brought $1,000 at auction with a room full of collectors. gar, from nj bought that set.

i am not sure when don started collecting sets straight out of packs, if i was to guess mid 1950's aprox and after that date he of course would have awesome pack fresh condition because that was when i would guess he started opening packs for his own sets. once again the printing quality of cards from the 50's and 60's left something to be desired but their are collectors who assembled their sets from packs and never played with the cards. a lot of original quality older cards, got into advanced collectors hands.

fun memories of lots of cards, one neat aspect of the memory is when you went through another persons high end collection in the early and mid 70's, you were actually holding the cards, not a slab.

i have one card today in a slab, a slabbed card from the lionel carter collection and i think the slab is pretty neat in the respect that i can handle it with no concern of damaging the card.
i also have about 20 late 1960's yankees i found in an old scrapbook of mine haggy, but they were mine!

best of collecting,
jsq

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I think the existence on high grade pre-war material can be attributed to the fact that most families did not not have the abundance of "stuff" that we all have today.

Most items that people hung on to were treasured and put away, I think that is especially true for the N, T & E era cards. The 1930's is a different matter, the scarcity obviously dates to the depression. I asked my Dad who was born in 1918 if he ever bought cards and he told me that he would have been whipped if he had spent pennies on something like that. Even for the kids that did buy them it may have been the only items they owned so they would have been handled often.

I have had this discussion with coin and stamp collectors and that is their take on these periods too.