Altered cards...just an opinion [Archive]

Stonepony

01-08-2016, 06:59 PM

Card alterations, whether as subtle as a good water soaking, or as aggressive as a professional repair, is really a thought provoking topic. We all have out tolerances and opinions - which sometimes are amusingly snobbish. Let me first say that I in no way condone any form of deceit in the hobby. Nor have I ever altered a card. I have sold altered cards, both slabbed and raw with full disclosure (examples being some Drake's which a TPG - and I agreed- determined had some edge touches). The problem is I likely own, or have sold cards that have been altered. Altered cards get by my eyes, your eyes and TPG ( perhaps frequently). So when we say altered cards are " worthless" and " I would never buy an altered card"...I have to smile. Really???. Don't feel bad but you probably have. Bill Mastro said ( I paraphrase) " that 90% of high grade vintage cards out there are altered". Now while i have no basis for believing a single word uttered by Mr. Mastro, I also have no reason to doubt his authority and experience with card and memorabilia alterations.
For those of us with high grade, unslabbed cards...are they suddenly " worthless' if myself, your neighbor or a TPG believes them trimmed by a hair? What if a TPG thinks they're fine but your highly respected hobby pal thinks there's a problem?
I have a M116 Mathewson that GIA graded as a 5. I cracked it and sent to PSA who sent it back as trimmed. SGC got their crack at it and gave it a 5. What do I have here... a worthless card or a $1000 card. Often there is a fine line between an altered card and a card that passes detection...so Im not going to bastardize all altered cards.
My point is it's very likely you and I have altered cards that have passed either your assessment or a TPGs. There are opinions as to the condition of cards and often these opinions differ. Which opinion counts...yours, TPG1,TPG2,TPG3? We likely have many undetected,altered cards in our collections. To completely dismiss "altered" cards as junk is somewhat harsh because your collection may very well be full of them and I doubt your love for them would wane if someone would give you that opinion. I don't currently have any cards slabbed as altered but I'm looking for them. Personally, some cards are WAY out of my price range so i would much rather have a great looking " altered" card than a horrific "poor" ( or none at all). I don't want a card thats been completely rebuilt, but if a hair trim or corner touch brings a whale into my price range- I think I'll go for it.
The 51 Mantle in Goodwin was gorgeous and it doesn't surprise me it brought a good price. Yes, the description should have been better- no doubt

Peter_Spaeth

01-08-2016, 07:03 PM

KCRfan1

01-08-2016, 07:52 PM

It comes down to what the alteration is for me. If I know a card is trimmed, I will most likely pass. Other than that, an alteration doesn't bother me.

ullmandds

01-08-2016, 08:01 PM

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

i feel similarly...although many of your points are valid. I have sent cards in to be graded that came back altered...I got rid of them only to see them slabbed later. It is somewhat of a psychological mindf$ck for me...if that makes sense????

I have never been a high grade collector...so in that regard i do not think I have altered cards in my collection...but who knows???

Obviously trimmed cards will never find their way into my collection...but "Scraps" with crazy miscuts...that's ok!!!!! Re-colored cards and things like added corners really piss me off!!!!! Undetectable removals...I have no problem with!!!

Rookiemonster

01-08-2016, 08:08 PM

If I found out a card I have was altered I would be bummed out for sure .
types of altering I don't like is trimming and if the card is written on . I don't like miscut cards just as much .

I don't mind pin holes at all . I or if a corner was rebuilt very well .

frankbmd

01-08-2016, 08:09 PM

pokerplyr80

01-08-2016, 08:16 PM

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

I highly doubt any seller would disclose this, although it would be nice to know. Has anyone ever seen a listing that mentioned a card was previously in an altered holder, or even that the grade was bumped from a lower one? I think the only way a buyer would be given this information is in a private transaction between friends, or somewhere like net54. And even then it would be unlikely.

Peter_Spaeth

01-08-2016, 08:56 PM

Multiple Choice

A). Review your notes from that ethics class in law school. :p

B). Deny, deny, deny! :D

I skipped legal ethics. :D

Peter_Spaeth

01-08-2016, 08:57 PM

I highly doubt any seller would disclose this, although it would be nice to know. Has anyone ever seen a listing that mentioned a card was previously in an altered holder, or even that the grade was bumped from a lower one? I think the only way a buyer would be given this information is in a private transaction between friends, or somewhere like net54. And even then it would be unlikely.

I agree, it doesn't happen, but the question I meant to ask is, am I ethically obligated to disclose? Is it material?

Leon

01-08-2016, 09:04 PM

I agree, it doesn't happen, but the question I meant to ask is, am I ethically obligated to disclose? Is it material?

I don't think you are obligated to give a pedigree of a card in a TPG holder. IF asked then just tell the truth, whatever it may be. But obligated, I don't think so. That's my opinion....

If my PSA 7 Young was in a SGC AUT holder before then so be it (I don't think it was but just sayin')....it looks great to me. I'm sure if it's ever sold or traded it will be in the holder it's in...

Iwantmorecards77

01-11-2016, 11:44 AM

I once purchased an ungraded T213 Cobb Red Portrait from a major auctioneer. No mention of any alterations and it was a great looking card. While I would always only purchase major cards in SGC or PSA holders, I decided to go for it. Being relatively new to the vintage hobby at the time, it was a rookie mistake. Ended up losing almost $1,000 in the end - a tough pill to swallow.

PSA claimed it was altered and sent it back. I tried SGC and they called me to tell me it was trimmed and pressed. I decided to have it placed in an "A" holder.

I contacted the auctioneer. He claimed the auction does not accept 3rd party opinions and that it was past the limit for "returns." I pointed out other lots in the auction that they claimed ungraded cards to be altered - but not the lot I purchased. The only thing they could do for me was to send it back so they could put it in next year's auction, but it would be up to me to disclose the alterations. I declined the "offer."

I ended up selling it on eBay for less than half of what I paid for it - and disclosed all info on how I purchased it, what the auctioneer claimed, and the alterations SGC claimed it to have. It was quite the long item description. Haha

I was so frustrated with the situation, I just wanted to get rid of it. I believe a board member purchased it.

I know PSA and SGC make mistakes on cards that obtain numerical grades. They're humans and we all make mistakes, but I feel more comfortable purchasing cards in their holders (with numerical grades.) The one time I buy a major card raw - and it blows up in my face. Again - rookie mistake and a lesson learned.

Todd Mancuso

Peter_Spaeth

01-11-2016, 12:04 PM

If an auction house does not disclose that a card is altered, it is fair for a bidder to assume it is not altered. I am sure there is verbiage in the terms and conditions saying they sell everything as is, but they should have stood behind it.

pokerplyr80

01-11-2016, 12:12 PM

If I'm ever considering a higher end raw card online, I always ask for a guarantee that the card is authentic and unaltered. If nothing else you can gauge your interest from how they respond. I pass if they're unwilling to offer the guarantee.

ls7plus

01-11-2016, 05:38 PM

We had a poll not too long ago, wherein, going by recollection, 76% (?) of us favored card restoration, as long as it was transparent, i.e., NO INTENT TO DECEIVE! I personally believe that restoration is indeed coming along those lines, and do not believe anything is wrong with it. Transparency could be achieved by the TPG's issuing guidelines (which enable ready detection), which, when followed, would result in a "restored" grade, perhaps accompanied by a numerical grade, or not, rather than "altered." In fact, I bought a 1929 R316 Kashin Mel Ott with that end in mind for a relative song--it was missing a small portion of a corner, had worn corners and a pinhole, but had centering far better than that typically found with this issue. Restored, it would make for a beautiful example of this great Giant's player.

We'll see what time does in this regard--restoration is condoned in some areas of collecting, but not others. As stated, as long as it is transparent, with no intent to deceive, there would be little opportunity for fraud.

Just my two cents worth,

Larry

irv

01-11-2016, 05:49 PM

Card alterations, whether as subtle as a good water soaking, or as aggressive as a professional repair, is really a thought provoking topic. We all have out tolerances and opinions - which sometimes are amusingly snobbish. Let me first say that I in no way condone any form of deceit in the hobby.

New to all/most of this but I always wondered to what extent/lengths a person would go to in order to make their card better that what it actually is/was?

Never heard of a "Good water soaking" before, and I don't really care if the info doesn't want to be shared as I have no plans to do anything with my 52 Topps collection my Father gave me as I am 99.9% sure these cards are untouched, and like you, I don't condone that type of behavior with anything.

I once purchased an ungraded T213 Cobb Red Portrait from a major auctioneer. No mention of any alterations and it was a great looking card. While I would always only purchase major cards in SGC or PSA holders, I decided to go for it. Being relatively new to the vintage hobby at the time, it was a rookie mistake. Ended up losing almost $1,000 in the end - a tough pill to swallow.

PSA claimed it was altered and sent it back. I tried SGC and they called me to tell me it was trimmed and pressed. I decided to have it placed in an "A" holder.

I ended up selling it on eBay for less than half of what I paid for it - and disclosed all info on how I purchased it, what the auctioneer claimed, and the alterations SGC claimed it to have. It was quite the long item description. Haha

I was so frustrated with the situation, I just wanted to get rid of it. I believe a board member purchased it.

I'm sure trimmed and pressed is exactly the way it sounds, and I assume some get missed/passed when getting graded? I am also sure some of these "alterations" are done professionally but someone with some serious skill too?

Good for you, that wasn't easy to do I'm sure!:)

I have a lot of 52's and I have never ever thought about even cleaning them up for fear of doing something bad to them. Serious question, do most, when they pick up cards, clean, wipe or do anything else to them even if they are keeping them for themselves?

JustinD

01-11-2016, 06:09 PM

Nothing is more disappointing than finding an altered card in your collection that you thought was good.

I recently was doing a quick run through of my 33 Delong set in progress and an Warneke seemed a tad off that seemed fine before. I took a measurement and found indeed that this card was trimmed.

I just frustratingly bought a replacement graded a PSA 3.5, so I can replace it.

This is why I get pissed off.

Rookiemonster

01-11-2016, 06:14 PM

irv

01-11-2016, 07:06 PM

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

Leon

01-13-2016, 12:25 PM

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

pokerplyr80

01-13-2016, 12:58 PM

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

conor912

01-13-2016, 01:23 PM

I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

Intriguing prediction. Over $2.8M? Certainly possible at this rate.

Stampsfan

01-13-2016, 01:53 PM

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

Comics are not "One Offs", and it is perfectly acceptable for comics to be altered. It does affect the price, and there are countless tales of collectors sending in their raw comics to CGC and receiving the (PLOD) "Purple Label of Death". It's identified as Professionally or Amateur restoration, Moderate or Extensive restoration, and even what the restoration is. And the price of the book reflects that. Look at the prices for "Amazing Fantasy 15" in, say, a 5.0 or 6.0, and check the pricing between a blue and a purple label.

There is a definite market for these things, and collectors can enjoy a 7.0 condition comic for a 4.0 price. To me, everyone wins when there is full, open disclosure.

While I don't profess to know every collectibles market, I have always felt the card game is the most stubborn in accepting altered items.

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

I also have not thought about a company specializing in restoring cards, although it exists in other areas. Great post on that, Rookiemonster. You've made me go "Aha!".

Leon

01-13-2016, 02:15 PM

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

glynparson

01-13-2016, 03:34 PM

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

CMIZ5290

01-13-2016, 03:47 PM

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

+1....Probably passes 4 million. PSA SMR price right now for a PSA 9 I believe is about 1.5 million...

CMIZ5290

01-13-2016, 03:57 PM

Peter_Spaeth

01-13-2016, 04:26 PM

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

Maybe the guy who owns 4 of the 6 will give up one.

pokerplyr80

01-13-2016, 04:51 PM

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

Yea compared to rare pre-war stuff I'm sure that is true. But almost everyone who has collected in the last 50 years has dreamed of owning this card one day. 9 in the world is still pretty low.

If a Net54 member, or any collector wins the powerball tonight I could see them spending a lot more than 2.8mil, or even 5 to get one of the 10s. I'd put the over/under right at 5 mil even without the powerball.

tschock

01-13-2016, 05:35 PM

There is a definite market for these things, and collectors can enjoy a 7.0 condition comic for a 4.0 price. To me, everyone wins when there is full, open disclosure.

In one respect, I understand slabbing comics even less than cards. I can look at the front and back of a card in a slab and still enjoy the card itself. How many people though truly enjoy looking at the side edge of the card, which is the only part of the card you can't see in the slab.

For comics, I can look at the front and back covers, which I can enjoy in the slab, but I have no access to the inside of the comic. That said, I've sent off a few comics to get slabbed myself.

irv

01-13-2016, 06:45 PM

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

What I was getting at, and although some "rare" art is indeed altered/restored with no monetary loss in value doing so, imagine if it was an accepted practice in the card business and what it would do to the hobby.

If I'm not mistaken, a lot/most collectors want a card or set in pristine, or as pristine as they can afford. If all cards/sets were pristine in mint or near mint condition due to being altered/restored, then the desire to collect would fall to the way side, or at least taper way off ultimately killing the hobby. It's just my opinion/observation, but I believe that is what would ultimately happen.

conor912

01-13-2016, 07:00 PM

I just went online with PSA, and there are in fact 3 10's, that surprised me as I thought there were 2 with one being fairly recent. Anyway, I do agree with Glyn's comment about over $2.8 million, my estimate may have been a tad high....

Like I said, definitely possible.....though at that price there's got to be a huge psychological barrier. Are you, as the guy willing to bid that much, willing to pay the most ever for a baseball card, especially one without the folklore of the Wagner. It comes down to which is worth more, a card with less than 20 (or whatever the number is) known copies, or a card that's merely a condition rarity. Regardless, when it does happen, it'll be fun watch, that's for sure!!:)

kmac32

01-13-2016, 07:15 PM

When it comes to altered cards, it depends on what the alteration is and how it effects the presentation of the card. Alterations like soaking do not really bother me much. Trimming and rebacking are no go for me as is true for recoloring cards. It really depends.

steve B

01-14-2016, 12:33 PM

The 52 Mantle is only uncommon in the very top grades. With just over 1300 graded by PSA alone I don't think I'd even call it uncommon. Its price is almost entirely because of demand.

I have a few altered cards. Some I knew were altered when I bought them, others I didn't. I don't even count the minor stuff that I don't think of as an alteration. Soaking scrapbook remnants off, light surface cleaning(NOT stain removal, just removing years of filth that's on the surface) Removing wrapper wax from the front, that sort of thing.

I do think there are alterations that get past TPG. With the setup they all have it's just not possible to catch the really well done ones every time. If they took more time they'd catch more.

At the same time undersize isn't always trimmed. But beyond a certain point an undersize card shouldn't be slabbed under the current system. If they had a qualifier for "undersize but not trimmed" it might be doable.

I'd like to see SGC use the rejection code flips instead of the "A". I think 3 of the 4 I've had rejected were unaltered but either undersize or had cuts too rough to grade. The trimmed one was trimmed for sure - I still can't figure out why I sent it in. :o

In most collecting original is always worth more than restored. Even cars, and a lot of the bicycle guys I know have come around from the older "restore everything" mentality. Original with a couple scratches is much better than restored.
Btw - there apparently are or were multiples of some famous art. They mentioned it on a show I saw about a possible second Mona Lisa. The artists studio would sometimes make smaller copies of larger works that they could sell a real profit center for some artists.

There's a lot of cards I'd be happy to have even altered. It's just a matter of balancing the price for altered compared to the price of an unaltered copy. And that of course requires disclosure.
A full price restoration? I'd have to think on that one. Probably not for me, I've never been too condition crazy.

Steve B

Joshchisox08

01-15-2016, 05:25 AM

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

I have a couple cards that I got graded and came back altered. Something about that word on the slab really annoys me.

Unfortunately one of the cards was bought by a member here without disclosing his knowledge of it being altered. Of course it's perfectly acceptable to believe that he may not have known. I obviously didn't and still really can't tell how it is only PSA knows!

If people would like I can find the card and post a pic later when I get home seeing as it goes with the subject of the thread.