T206 Wet Sheet Transfer vs. Impression Cylinder Transfer

[Sean]

A couple BST threads discussed WST and Cylinder Transfers, so I hope that this thread can help.

A WST is usually caused by a printer placing a sheet of cards which are not quite dry on top of another sheet. A faint amount of ink transfers to the other sheet. WSTs are usually very faint and lacking in clarity.

ICTs are quite different. Quoting Ron Kornacki," ... offset printing (is) where a plate image transfers to a blanket cylinder and then onto the paper. If the paper is not fed, the blanket image will transfer to the impression cylinder. If that happens, a reversed image would print on the back side of the paper the same time the image is printed on the front. Normally the impression cylinder would be cleaned if a misfeed happened before feeding another sheet in to avoid the error reverse printing." If the cylinder isn't cleared, you get an Impression Cylinder Transfer.

The ICT images are reversed, just like the WSTs. However, the ICT is much darker and more clear, as it didn't transfer from a different sheet, but was printed directly on the back of the sheet being printed.


For comparison, here is a WST (Bescher) followed by an ICT (Bowerman):


217231 217232


217233 217234

[Sean]

As a further example, a couple WSTs (Ganley and Rucker) followed by an ICT (Tinker):


217235

217236

[Jantz]

There are two types of Wet Sheet Transfers.

Those that happen during production in factory (Rucker) and those that happen outside the factory after production (Ganley).

[Sean]

Jantz, how can you tell which happened in the factory from those that occured later?

[z28jd]

The Ganley was from a storage issue. There are quite a few Sweet Caporal cards out there that have the fuzzy image transfer, like either from the cards getting wet, or being stored in a damp place. I actually have two(and have seen others) that also have the top right darkening with the same fuzzy image, so it may have been a huge stack that suffered some type of fire damage or storage issue.

Side-by-side you can easily tell the difference between a wet sheet transfer SC back and one that was moisture related after it left the factory, just from the crispness in the transfer

[steve B]

The post factory transfers aren't from simply being damp. I'm not sure exactly how they happened, but I did try to cause one using a soaked card and pressure over a few days. That caused no transfer at all.

There's a number of types of post factory transfers too.

I believe the Ganley was part of the dealer inventory that was in a fire years ago. I have a couple EPDG cards that are scorched the same way but slightly worse and when I wondered about why so many of the ones I saw had the same scorching someone mentioned the fire. So maybe heat plus water plus maybe a chemical extinguisher?

The Bescher I believe is also post- factory. Unless they were using a multi color press, it would be very unusual to get that many colors involved in a wst. Cards like this I suspect the transfer is from years of abrasion caused by a bit of vibration.

The inks used are not water soluble, the carrier would have been either oil based or possibly something like Shellac or linseed oil. We'll probably never know for sure since the ink formulations were trade secrets.

I've shown this before, and while it's not printed by lithography it's a similar thing. A stamp printed on cardstock that left a transfer on another while in the mail. The last printing of these was around 1894, so the transfer came somewhat over 100 years after printing!
Similar cardstock, and similar ink is used in engraving.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=10227

What's really interesting about the cylinder transfers is that they show for sure that the press used for that card was a fairly modern press, possibly entirely rotary, and using plates. Some of the flatbed presses which used stones didn't have an impression cylinder and printed directly from the stone.The Willetts cards with the blue nail or wire mark have an impression of the object on the back which is a clear indicator of having been printed on one of those direct presses.

So there's solid proof that two different types of press were used.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

ICT would certainly explain this:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1972%20Topps%20Killebrew%20misprint.jpg

And WST:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1948%20Leaf%20Spahn%20back.jpg

[Yoda]

The things I still need to learn. Right now I have a E196 Meusel up in the Mile High auction going on now which I thought was a WST but now think is a IST. But am I right? Confusion, always confusion. John

[Sean]

Thank you Steve. Everything that I know about T206 printing I learned from you and Ron. :)

[mrvster]

spot on! Erick is well versed like chris and the rest;)

[oldeboo]

I was recently doing the typical picking of the cherries and stumbled upon this guy. I was doing a once over, then I spotted something going on down at the bottom. My initial instinct was to assume it was some sort of mark or stamp, then I looked a little closer and immediately moved my mouse over to the “Buy It Now” button. There was already a lot of heat on it with over 30 views, so I had little choice!

My initial guess was a Wet Sheet Transfer, so I started doing some research on here. I’ve never seen a T206 like this, but discovered there are some out there after digging. Once I stumbled upon this thread, I now believe this to be an Impression Cylinder Transfer. While looking through other threads I found the Gibson card that is shown below. (credit to atx840 for that, if you don’t want me using it just let me know) I find the names at the bottom on the back to be virtually identical in clarity and strength of color. It is my understanding that Wet Sheet Transfers are often less bold than what we see with these two examples. One thing that makes the Murray a little tricky is that it has the dark colored Polar Bear back along with the ever so common scrap stains. To my eye, I’m not picking up much of any image detail on the reverse. Maybe some brown in the white areas, but that might just be scrap stain. I’ve also read on here, if I understand correctly, that some believe that there was potentially two different ways of printing the brown. The first being with the image details and name/team in one pass, then at times it was done separately. Maybe that is what is going on here or it’s just hard to see and determine.

For the members that know a lot about the printing process, is my assumption correct that the Murray card is an Impression Cylinder Transfer?

Also, has anyone seen this anomaly on a Polar Bear back before?

Any other thoughts?



I know this doesn’t do much for most, but I find these oddballs to be interesting diamonds in the rough.

[steve B]

Interesting card.
Impression cylinder stuff is usually the entire image.
It would be a little surprising if the only brown on Murray was the name and team, but that looks like it.

A wet sheet transfer in the factory can be nearly as clear and solid as a cylinder transfer under the right conditions. Like the new kid leaning on a stack of finished sheets.... usually only a few get wrecked. But if the plate has already been removed.....

I wouldn't possibly know how much trouble the new kid might be in... :o

[Pat R]

Nice pick up Trey that's a neat card.

Here's a McLean I have with a partial caption transfer on the back

424196
424195

and a Schlei that could be a factory wet sheet transfer

424197

[atx840]

Nice pickup, I bet if it was any other back you would see the rest of the brown ink layer.

Cheap way to get a back ghost. :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/5342/9437437821_6970f69fb5_h.jpg

[oldeboo]

Thanks for the input Steve. What you've mentioned is interesting to think about. Processes weren't as automated as today and human error would explain some of the hard to explain obscurities we see.

That Bescher is a beauty, that Schlei is nice and sharp too. Cool to see a Polar Bear with a quirky touch to the back as well.

Always good to bump these old threads to see what has popped up!

[Luke]

Great card Trey! When you get it in-hand, you'll have to take some really high res scans and see if there are other spots of brown ink that are on the back as well (there most likely are). Tough to see on a PB back, but with the right scanner maybe you can spot it.

[Casey2296]

Can someone help me understand the process of how a ghost image comes about. For example this E94 Speaker, it looks like a bleed through to me but i don't know much about the printing process so I'm looking for a little Net54 member education.
Thank you in advance.