Timeline of Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis cards). Show us your Demmitt & O'Hara cards

[tedzan]

Demmitt and O'Hara started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. In May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League.
Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press run of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards circa Spring/Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 140 subjects of
the 350-only Series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 64 subjects from the 350/460 Series. In this press run, it is my
contention that ALC printed the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations.

Furthermore, this PB press run of 66 subjects was printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series (and the subsequent 460-only Series) printing
of PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards.

Finally, I would estimate that there are at least 200 (and perhaps as many as 300) Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations currently in circulation.


OK, having said all this, I'm open to hearing your ideas on this subject. And by all means, please show us your Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis cards.
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aohara.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PolarBearMcGlynn25x.jpghttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/demmitt.jpg


Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/ac46demmittohara.jpg



TED Z
.

[Cozumeleno]

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.

[tedzan]

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.


Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

[Laxcat]

The O'hara STL I had is now in the hands of another board member. It is raw and I believe will stay that way. So that is one more to add to the count. As for origin: no idea. I like to think one of the print guys was a time traveler and wanted to mess with people in the future. He's probably reading this post right now, feeding his pet polar bear, and laughing.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Like Leon , I think fewer than 10 percent of the collecting population knows about Net54 and I think probably the same percentage of cards are actually graded.

The percentage probably goes up quite a bit for rare cards but still probably hits in the 25 percent range at best, maybe higher for the big four of T206s. I know of 4 1952 Topps Mantles in albums within 60 miles of me all owned by collectors over 60 that have no interest in TPGs.

Just an uneducated guess?

[esd10]

The t213-2 has the demmitt with the st Louis uniform from the polar bear.

[Cozumeleno]

Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

Yeah, I think that there are probably quite a few raw ones out there. You know of six alone. That number could be closer to 400-500 for each.

[Sean]

214812


Hey Ted, this is the worst 3.5 I've ever seen.

[rats60]

Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

My 520 set is also ungraded. My question on the pop numbers though would be how many of those are duplicates from the cards being resubmitted?

[bbcard1]

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.

I do think Demmits and OHara's are prime "crack and resubmit for a higher grade" candidates, which could inflate the number on the registry.

I have one of each. Both are now raw (a well-derserved A and a well deserved 10) but both have been slabbed in the past. I still have the flips.

[mpemulis]

A little foxing on Demmitt...

[ullmandds]

214812


Hey Ted, this is the worst 3.5 I've ever seen.

id say!

[mybuddyinc]

Raw ................. :)

214826

214827

[mybuddyinc]

"American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press run of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards circa Spring/Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 140 subjects of
the 350-only Series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 64 subjects from the 350/460 Series. In this press run, it is my
contention that ALC printed the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations.

Furthermore, this PB press run of 66 subjects was printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series (and the subsequent 460-only Series) printing
of PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards."

------------------

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking :rolleyes: it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460. :confused::confused:

[tedzan]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking :rolleyes: it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460. :confused::confused:


1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DemmittWSox50x.jpg



TED Z
.

[Pat R]

I think one explanation could be that the Polar Bears might have been printed
separately at one of ALC's other printing facilities, I just can't see any reason
in going through the trouble of making new plates for the team change just
for the Polar Bear printing, however if they were printed at a different facility
Demmitt and O'Hara could have been with ST Louis at the time they were making
the plates for this facility.

[jp1216]

Sold my Demmitt, but this O'Hara is on BST....
http://www.billripken.com/bucket/355b_OHara.jpg

I'd guess that at least 10% have been resubmitted or crossed over for the POP report numbers.

[mybuddyinc]

1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.




TED Z
.

Thanks, Ted, that makes sense. I wasn't questioning your original statement, just read it some what incorrectly (which for me, isn't to hard :rolleyes:). You're numbers for 350 vs. 350/460 makes it all come together for me, and it makes perfect logic.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

My sales data support your premise that the populations of Demmitt (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) are more in line with the Polar Bear (PB) populations of 350/460 regular print subjects than the PB populations of 350-only or 460-only subjects.

Generally speaking, the PB sales frequency of 350-only subjects is about 2X lower, and the PB sales frequency of 460-only subjects is some 4X lower, than the PB sales frequency of 350/460 regular print subjects [which, again, are in line with the Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) sales frequencies].

I'm not sure this leads inescapably to the conclusion that Demmit (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) were printed contemporaneously with 350/460 regular print subjects, but I agree that this fact and the others you cite provide some circumstantial evidence.

[One reason I am hesitant to draw a firm conclusion is that several Midwestern subjects -- Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) come to mind – seem to have been printed in much higher numbers with Polar Bear than other subjects from their subject groups. It seems to me not out of the realm of possibility that Midwestern bias, rooted in the fact that Polar Bear was sourced in Ohio, could help explain why Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) share the 350/460 regular print population profile].

On another front, I fully concur with you that there are more than 200 copies of each of these guys around – probably more like 300 per. When I “guesstimated” back in 2006 that there might be about 200 copies of each, my premise was that the Polar Bear population was roughly the same for all subjects with which that back exists. We now know that’s not true, and that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) are “uncommonly common” with Polar Bear.

Best wishes this holiday season my friend.

Scot

[tedzan]

Illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected to expand into the 460 series. I originally posted this simulation regarding the SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" cards.

This arrangement is also applicable to the POLAR BEAR (PB) print run of the 350/460 series cards. I've identified Simon Nicholls and Bob Rhoades as possible replacements. Their MLB careers
ended prior to the PB print run of this series. My theory is that the St Louis cards of Demmitt and O'Hara replaced these two guys on this sheet in the early phases of this PB print run.


Note....if your screen shows only 6 cards across, reduce its image in order to form a sheet display of 12 cards across by 6 rows down.


v................................................. ....... Super-Prints .................................................. ...v.............................................. .................................................. ................... Nicholls

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte12x.jpg
... Rhoades ...



TED Z
.

[sycks22]

O'hara will come out to play

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

My sales data support your premise that the populations of Demmitt (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) are more in line with the Polar Bear (PB) populations of 350/460 regular print subjects than the PB populations of 350-only or 460-only subjects.

Generally speaking, the PB sales frequency of 350-only subjects is about 2X lower, and the PB sales frequency of 460-only subjects is some 4X lower, than the PB sales frequency of 350/460 regular print subjects [which, again, are in line with the Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) sales frequencies].

I'm not sure this leads inescapably to the conclusion that Demmit (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) were printed contemporaneously with 350/460 regular print subjects, but I agree that this fact and the others you cite provide some circumstantial evidence.

[One reason I am hesitant to draw a firm conclusion is that several Midwestern subjects -- Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) come to mind – seem to have been printed in much higher numbers with Polar Bear than other subjects from their subject groups. It seems to me not out of the realm of possibility that Midwestern bias, rooted in the fact that Polar Bear was sourced in Ohio, could help explain why Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) share the 350/460 regular print population profile].

On another front, I fully concur with you that there are more than 200 copies of each of these guys around – probably more like 300 per. When I “guesstimated” back in 2006 that there might be about 200 copies of each, my premise was that the Polar Bear population was roughly the same for all subjects with which that back exists. We now know that’s not true, and that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) are “uncommonly common” with Polar Bear.

Best wishes this holiday season my friend.

Scot


Well, we have always wondered where in the scheme of things the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara were printed. I'm convinced that American Lithographic
included these two variations with the 350/460 Series POLAR BEAR print runs.

I really appreciate your independent analysis of your huge T206 survey which reinforces my research on this subject. And thanks for all the kind words regarding this.

Wishing you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year my good friend.


TED Z
.

[Jantz]

Nice cards!

I like how you can still see remnants of the "New York" on Ted's 213 Demmitt and Scott's T206 Demmitt (St. Louis).

[tedzan]

I'm reprising this post for further clarification.

Illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected to expand into the 460 series. I originally posted this simulation regarding the SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" cards.

The arrangement of these 72 cards is arbitrary (I show the 6 super-prints double-printed since T206 survey data and POP report data suggests this). This arrangement is also applicable to
the POLAR BEAR (PB) print run of the 350/460 series cards (circa Summer 1910). Note that I have identified Simon Nicholls and Bob Rhoades as possible replacements. Their MLB careers
ended prior to the PB print run of this series. My theory is that the St Louis cards of Demmitt and O'Hara replaced these two guys on this sheet in the early phases of this 350/460 Series
PB print run.

v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg




Hey guys......let's see some more Demmitt and O'Hara cards.


TED Z
.

[Jantz]

Hi Ted

I would agree with your theory about Nichols. He would be a solid candidate to have been replaced by Demmitt or O'Hara.

Nichols (batting) is one of the toughest cards to find with a Polar Bear back compared to the other 249 Polar Bear cards in the set.

Jantz

[sreader3]

Hi Ted & Jantz,

Interesting theories.

I personally think ATC’s sensitivity to high customer interest in Midwestern teams among Polar Bear (Factory 6, Ohio) customers, particularly interest in the Cleveland Naps and St. Louis Browns and Cardinals,is a common thread that helps explain not only subject swaps in the 350/460 print run but also certain Polar Bear superprinting.

We know Nichols (Batting) and Rhoades (Arm Extended) were original 350/460 subjects who were pulled early from production -- not just from Polar Bear sheets but from all sheets.

We suspect that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) were replacement 350/460 subjects on Polar Bear sheets.

And my 350/460 subject sales data show that Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) are unusually common with Polar Bear. (Let’s call these two “Polar Bear superprints," for short).

Now consider the career trajectories of these guys.

1. Nichols
Nichols was traded to Cleveland during the 1909 offseason and retired in April 1910 after playing only three games with the Tribe, making him a candidate for early removal.

2. Rhoades
Rhoades was a staple in the Cleveland rotation for many years who retired after the 1909 season, making him a candidate for early removal.

3. Demmitt
Demmitt was traded to the Browns during the 1909 offseason, making him a candidate for late addition.

4. O’Hara
O’Hara was acquired by the Cards during the 1909 offseason, making him a candidate for late addition.

5. Willis
Willis was a star hurler who was acquired by the Cards during the 1909 offseason after going 22-11 for the World Champion Pirates in 1909, making him a "Polar Bear superprint" candidate.

6. Joss
Joss was Cleveland’s star hurler for many years who threw his second no hitter in April 1910, making him a "Polar Bear superprint" candidate.

I don’t know exactly how all the pieces fit, but I do think there is a cause-and-effect relationship between ATC’s sensitivity to Midwestern team favoritism among Polar Bear (Factory 6, Ohio) customers and printing swaps/anomalies in the 350/460 subject group.

Scot

[Sean]

Ted, Jantz and Scot, this is really fascinating stuff. :)

[sreader3]

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot

[sreader3]

As a final note of support for the "Midwestern bias" theory for Polar Bear, I would note that Factory 6 was in Middleton, Ohio (Luhrman & Wilburn Tobacco Company) -- about halfway between St. Louis and Cleveland.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey ?



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206NichollsSovereignAB350.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206NichollsPiedmontPolarBearX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/NichollsSovereignAB350.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/NichollsPiedmontPolarBear.jpg




TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Couple more......
215240

[tedzan]

Couple more......
215240


Hi Jeff

Thanks for posting your Demmitt and O'Hara cards.

Unless I'm missing something, your Demmitt looks like it deserves better than an SGC 20 grade.


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Unless I'm missing something, your Demmitt looks like it deserves better than an SGC 20 grade.


TED Z
.

It's definitely "polar bear" dirty but has a slight loss above his ear. would probably get a 2-2.5 otherwise. My scanner hates graded cards.

I love the card though......

[Jantz]

Ted & Scot

Thank you once again for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. It is appreciated.

Ted

I should have known that you would have a Nichols (batting) with a PB back. And its a beauty as well!

No O'Hara yet, but here is my Demmitt.

Jantz

[tedzan]

Ted & Scot

Thank you once again for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. It is appreciated.

Ted

I should have known that you would have a Nichols (batting) with a PB back. And its a beauty as well!

No O'Hara yet, but here is my Demmitt.

Jantz


I always appreciate your kind words, good buddy.


If you are looking for a Nicholls / POLAR BEAR card, I have an extra one somewhere in my T206 archives that I can send you.

Email me your mailing address and I will send it to you.

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z
.

[Jantz]

I always appreciate your kind words, good buddy.


If you are looking for a Nicholls / POLAR BEAR card, I have an extra one somewhere in my T206 archives that I can send you.

Email me your mailing address and I will send it to you.

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I was fortunate enough to pick up a Nichols Polar Bear last year.

Thank you for the generous offer though.

Jantz

[sreader3]

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey?

TED Z
.

Hi Ted, Have been away from the board for a couple of days. I'll see what I can track down re Nichols pops. Scot

[sreader3]

AB 350 ........... 0
DRUM ............ 0
EPDG ............. 3
OLD MILL ........ 3
POLAR BEAR .... 4
SOVEREIGN ..... 4
TOLSTOI ......... 3

For comparison:

PIEDMONT 350 .... 43
SWEET CAPORAL 350 .... 44

Seems pretty proportionate to your data except I didn't see any AB 350s during 2008 - 2013 time frame.

[Pat R]

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12







TED Z
.

Ted,

SGC has a few Nichols (batting) listed as Nicholls (batting) in their pop reports
namely two Tolstoi's and one each of Old Mill and EPDG.

This is what the current SGC and PSA pop reports show.


PSA SGC Total


AB 350......... 7- 3- 10
Drum......... 0- 2- 2
EPDG......... 10- 5- 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4- 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9- 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7- 14

[tedzan]

Do you really mean........

AB 350......... 7- 3 = 10
Drum......... 0- 2 = 2
EPDG......... 10- 5 = 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4 = 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9 = 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- = 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7 = 14


Then thanks for confirming my numbers. The slight difference on a couple of your #'s vs. my #'s is most likely because your's are more current than mine.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

AB 350 ........... 0
DRUM ............ 0
EPDG ............. 3
OLD MILL ........ 3
POLAR BEAR .... 4
SOVEREIGN ..... 4
TOLSTOI ......... 3

For comparison:

PIEDMONT 350 .... 43
SWEET CAPORAL 350 .... 44

Seems pretty proportionate to your data except I didn't see any AB 350s during 2008 - 2013 time frame.


Thanks Scot for this data on Nicholls.

If my recollection is accurate, you have one of the nicest Nicholls / AB 350 cards that I have seen. I have been trying to acquire an upgrade on my Nicholls / AB 350 cards for over 9
years and haven't found one yet.

Furthermore, your numbers regarding Nicholls with AB 350 and DRUM backs appear to support my theory that he was removed early in the press runs of those 2 backs and replaced
with Jake Stahl.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Do you really mean........

AB 350......... 7- 3 = 10
Drum......... 0- 2 = 2
EPDG......... 10- 5 = 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4 = 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9 = 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- = 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7 = 14


Then thanks for confirming my numbers. The slight difference on a couple of your #'s vs. my #'s is most likely because your's are more current than mine.



TED Z
.


Ted,

Yes, your pop report numbers are correct with the exception of a few SGC
examples that have the Nicholls spelling on the grading label instead of
Nichols which is correct for the batting version.

Here are two Tolstois, one of each spelling.
http://photos.imageevent.com/patrickr/samesheetpositions/Nicholls%20Tolstoi.png

http://photos.imageevent.com/patrickr/samesheetpositions/Nichols%20Tolstoi.png

[tedzan]

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot


I like your "Midwestern POLAR BEAR distribution" theory; and, I think it needs to extend to include Detroit.

Check-out your numbers for both Cobb's (red and batting). American Lithograph must have double-printed
or triple-printed these subjects with the POLAR BEAR (PB) backs.

Also, I am curious about your numbers regarding Crawford and the two Jennings cards with PB backs. Plus
Mullin, O'Leary, and Willetts with PB backs.


Furthermore, perhaps we should also consider the 12 subjects (with PB) of the two Chicago teams ?


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I am happy to provide your requested data when I return to the office. But I don't think I would extend my working theory to Detroit. Under my working theory, there were five 350/460 subjects removed from production early:

Doyle (N.Y.) reason = team caption error
Nichols (Batting) reason = retirement after a few games played with Cleveland
Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) reason = trade to Boston
Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) reason = retirement after 1909 from Cleveland
Smith (Chi. White Cap) reason = trade to Boston

And there were four undisputed 350/460 subjects added:

Demmitt (St. Louis) reason - trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Kleinow (Boston) reason = trade to Boston
O'Hara (St. Louis) reason = trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Smith (Chicago & Boston) reason = trade to Boston

So the emphasis is on St. Louis, Cleveland -- and I suppose Boston.

Perhaps the transition was as follows ???

Midwestern sheet (Polar Bear only)

Doyle --> Joss/Willis (extra-print)
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> Demmitt
Rhoades --> O'Hara
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Non-Midwestern sheet

Doyle --> Stahl
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> ???
Rhoades --> ???
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Scot

EDITED TO ADD: As for Cobb (Red) being printed in large quantities with Polar Bear, I can say that ALL of the 6 superprints were printed in large quantities with Polar Bear. I believe this to be a superprint phenomenon, not a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Illustrated in my 72-card simulation sheet of the original 66 subjects in the 350/460 Series are the 6 super-prints Double Printed. So, I agree with you that the large quantities of the red Cobb
are accounted for.

But, how do we account for the large quantities of the Cobb (bat off shoulder) which, in my research, are approx. equal to that of the red Cobb ?


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg



TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Great display -- love the simulation sheet.

In my dataset:

Cobb (Red), Polar Bear, N = 110
Cobb (Bat Off), Polar Bear, N = 63

The Cobb (Red) data are in-line with other superprints.

The Cobb (Bat Off) data are in-line with other non-superprint HOFers.

So my dataset does not show a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

Hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Scot

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

Great display -- love the simulation sheet.

In my dataset:

Cobb (Red), Polar Bear, N = 110
Cobb (Bat Off), Polar Bear, N = 63

The Cobb (Red) data are in-line with other superprints.

The Cobb (Bat Off) data are in-line with other non-superprint HOFers.

So my dataset does not show a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

Hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Scot


Hi Scot

The data I have regarding the Cobb (bat off shoulder) card is approx. 75 % of the Cobb (red portrait) card. I think my higher numbers are most likely due
to grading "re-submissions" for the Cobb (bat off) card over a long period of time.

Thanks, we had a nice Christmas family gathering yesterday. My younger Daughter, Zoe, arrived from Santa Monica (CA). Our Grandson, Ron, drove down
from Maine. My Sister's family joined us. But, we really, really miss our older Daughter, Debbie.

Hope you and your Family are having a wonderful Christmas. Best Wishes to you for a Happy New Year


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

But, we really, really miss our older Daughter, Debbie.


TED Z
.

My heart goes out to you my friend. Peace be with you and your family.

[tedzan]

Scot

Your heartfelt words of sympathy are very appreciated.

Take care, my good friend.


TED Z
.