Need help with an odd Babe Ruth Kashin Card

[pencil1974]

So a while back I picked up this 5x7 Ruth that looks exactly like the Kashin photo premium. Problem is it's not the photo. I sent it to Leon to have him take a look and he thought it was modern. Which is fine but there is still some things that don't make sense to me.

The paper is thick and very high quality, so is the printing on it, its not an inkjet cheap copy, the halftone pattern is exactly the same as the Kashin regular card and the photo quality is really nice. The halftones dots matching is what through me off the most as this is not easy to match as you need a really nice hi-res scan, figure out the exact line screen and angle and also figure out the exact halftone size. Thats a lot of work (I'm a Creative Director for Leo Burnett, so lets just say I know Photoshop pretty well).

Last it has the old musty smell that all my old cards have and none of my new ones do. Leon had mentioned that you could replicate that smell so I did a little myth busters test and put a new piece of paper in an 1870's envelope I had with some 1800's family letters, deeds, etc for a month, and it didn't work for me. Maybe I didn't have it in the right spot but it was in my basement where I figure most musty things come from.

Anyway, any one have another modern version of this? That they can share, I find it hard to believe someone took up the time and money to make plates (just black), and have it run on an offset press for one 5x7 in the hopes of making a few bucks, the set up and prepress alone would have made it not profitable.

Looking for ideas here. Also I did send it to PSA and got the old N9.

(Top loop photo is the original Kashin, the second photo is the odd Ruth)

Thanks and hope everyone is having a good holiday season so far.

Brad

[Leon]

To me it looked like it was printed on something like 1980s Kodachrome paper. I am 100% sure it's not period. (but have been wrong before) Good luck with it...

[pencil1974]

It's not a kodachrome paper I've seen before and unfortunately doing press checks around the world I've seen every type of paper and printing processes you could imagine.

I try not to bring up my expertise in paper and printing and maybe I should more since it is my job. lol

Where would someone get the hi-res photo for this would be my first question, not on the internet, its not in there, could be from a scan, but from my experience to that quality it would have been from a negative and not from a flat bed, could be a drum scan but again who has the money for that? It just is a bit perplexing.

[pencil1974]

Quick trivia note, did you know kodachrome was first used in the 1930's?

[Jobu]

I don't have much to add, but does anyone know what font "New York American League" is in? It looks like a newer font (??). If so, we could put something of a date on this.

[pencil1974]

That is on the 5x7 premium.

[Jobu]

Ha! Well, so much for that. Shoulda kept my mouth shut.

[pencil1974]

No your'e good Bryan. I'm not saying its not modern it could be and just has an old musty smell because it was in a basement for a few years or a warehouse. I'm just trying to piece together where it came from. Because what ever it is was done very nicely. Leon can attest to that this is not some cheap knock off and time and effort were put into it.

[Leon]

No your'e good Bryan. I'm not saying its not modern it could be and just has an old musty smell because it was in a basement for a few years or a warehouse. I'm just trying to piece together where it came from. Because what ever it is was done very nicely. Leon can attest to that this is not some cheap knock off and time and effort were put into it.

It's a better knock off than other fake cards. But the gloss on the paper is way too "even" looking. I would love to know what the paper is. You might check with one our resident photo experts, DRCY....David Ru.dd Cycl.eback....he might know what that paper is.

[pencil1974]

I know David, I have his email I may see if he would be interested in taking a look. I'm always up for opinions, that's how we tend to learn in life and in this hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It has been my impression that Steve B knows an awful lot about paper too, maybe ask him.

[steve B]

Thanks Peter. I don't think of my self as knowing paper as well as some other things.

I also don't know a whole lot about the Kashin set.

The closeups look different, but taking photos through a magnifier is difficult, so if someone with a publishing background says the halftone is identical I'll go with that.

If Kashin got their images from a place that supplied images to all sorts of publishers it's possible that they bought a halftone that was a copy. Some places supplied halftones ready to use, the buyer could add text or do cropping etc. Supplying photos to make halftones from was more common.
Duplicates would either be done from a master halftone negative, or done through the same screen while it was setup.

Once someone had the "original " elements like a halftone negative, they could make a plate with whatever size image they wanted, since a lithography plate is a type of photographic print (within reason, there's technical limits and limits to the skill of the operator.) And the new item would have the identical halftone. Other sorts of plates are also created photographically.

That's not done much anymore, the modern stuff is digital straight to the press. It might be doable with really good scans of a Kashin, but I'm thinking it would be a ton of work to get it "right"

So that's one possibility, something made from a commercially available halftone.


Steve B

[Leon]

Whatever the situation with the Kashin in question it had a different process to make it, and is on very different paper, than the originals. I still personally think it's 1970s-1980s commemorative remake, such as TCMA did.

[pencil1974]

TCMA did a commemorative Kashin? Then that could be the answer, would love to see it.

[Leon]

TCMA did a commemorative Kashin? Then that could be the answer, would love to see it.

I am not saying they did a Kashin only that this paper sort of reminds me of some of those I have handled.

[pencil1974]

Damn you Leon, you got my hopes up for a second that I had this finally solved. lol