Another fake 52T Mantle on ebay

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-Graded-6-Original-/281861829918?hash=item41a046351e:g:dccAAOSwZVhWTln N

Real one attached.
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=46570

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ebay one.

[Donscards]

It is over 11K-----sure wish it was real

[Peter_Spaeth]

The flip is pretty good on this one, I think, but the card LOL.

I don't see any obvious damage to the case? Are they now making cases too?

[Iron Horse]

The flip looks very real but as you said the card is a poor copy. Curious what happened once the winner got that fake Bowman rookie that you dug up :D

[Rookiemonster]

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .

[Peter_Spaeth]

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .

I doubt that very much, actually.

[Sophiedog]

He doesn't even post a scan of the back of the card. For a card like that you would think he would post a few pics at least. Big red flag just with that

[glynparson]

from what i understand many of the fake older flips and fake older slabs are produced by some scumbag from central/latin america somewhere. Card is really poor reproduction on this one. not even close to real. Good work Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

from what i understand many of the fake older flips and fake older slabs are produced by some scumbag from central/latin america somewhere. Card is really poor reproduction on this one. not even close to real. Good work Peter.

Are they making slabs? I know at one point there was a discussion where a person I consider to be extremely knowledgeable said no, all the slabs were just tampered with.

[glynparson]

I have heard Both. I am
Honestly not sure. It wasn't to hard to crack the old slabs cleanly so that may have been possible.

[pokerplyr80]

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.

Since you knew already it was fake, or should have, what was the point, just to see how he would react?

[pokerplyr80]

Since you knew already it was fake, or should have, what was the point, just to see how he would react?

Pretty much, curiosity, and the off chance that the card was real and it was a bad picture. It took about 5 minutes of time and there wasn't much risk. I certainly wasn't going to wire him a bunch of money without verifying the card.

[MW1]

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .There is zero chance that anyone from PSA was involved in photoshopping an image of a reprinted 1952 Mantle into a picture of an already existing card. This one looks purely digital to me. I say there's zero chance the seller ever delivers a physical card.

[Rookiemonster]

Do you think PSA keeps all the old slabs ? I don't thinks . Do think they get trash 100% I do . Do think there's some low wage worker willing to sell those ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pretty much, curiosity, and the off chance that the card was real and it was a bad picture. It took about 5 minutes of time and there wasn't much risk. I certainly wasn't going to wire him a bunch of money without verifying the card.

How was there even an off chance? All you have to do to find the real ones with the same cert is to look at cardtarget.

[pokerplyr80]

How was there even an off chance? All you have to do to find the real ones with the same cert is to look at cardtarget.

Believe it or not I had never been to card target before today. It looks like a good resource though and I will be sure to use it in the future.

As to your question yes I knew there was virtually no chance that card was real, but I wanted to see how he would respond. I guess the same mentality that gets people to buy those obvious reprints we post here. What if?

A better question would be who is bidding 10k plus on this card? I would assume someone who is planning to just use the ebay guarantee when things don't work out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Believe it or not I had never been to card target before today. It looks like a good resource though and I will be sure to use it in the future.

As to your question yes I knew there was virtually no chance that card was real, but I wanted to see how he would respond. I guess the same mentality that gets people to buy those obvious reprints we post here. What if?

A better question would be who is bidding 10k plus on this card? I would assume someone who is planning to just use the ebay guarantee when things don't work out.

People obviously don't do their diligence. People were bidding near full retail on the fake 4 despite many red flags. There have been thousands of fraudulent hobby transactions, I couldn't even begin to explain them all, except to say many people check their intelligence at the door when it comes to making purchases. Thus, fraudsters get rich.

[pokerplyr80]

People obviously don't do their diligence. People were bidding near full retail on the fake 4 despite many red flags. There have been thousands of fraudulent hobby transactions, I couldn't even begin to explain them all, except to say many people check their intelligence at the door when it comes to making purchases. Thus, fraudsters get rich.

Unfortunately that is all completely true. I admit it was basically a waste of time to even try on this one. But I really did want to see what he would have to say. That's why I offered less than 1/3 of what the card has sold for recently.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.


even people with real mantles wont agree to those terms...they would agree to a paypal regular payment to them that you could cancel I guess later if fake..but they not going to use an escrow most of the time unless you want to pay the escrow fee at least..

[pokerplyr80]

even people with real mantles wont agree to those terms...they would agree to a paypal regular payment to them that you could cancel I guess later if fake..but they not going to use an escrow most of the time unless you want to pay the escrow fee at least..

I offered to pay the escrow fees but I don't think that was the issue. I also offered to come pick it up in person. I would have obviously paid double what I offered or quite a bit more if I thought the seller actually had the card.

I don't have any experience buying cards in this kind of price range but I certainly wouldn't just wire money into someone's account even if I knew the card was real unless I knew something about the seller.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just for entertainment value I am tempted to bid 50,000, let him end it early with me as high bidder, and then laugh at him.

[pokerplyr80]

Just for entertainment value I am tempted to bid 50,000, let him end it early with me as high bidder, and then laugh at him.

The card is at 19k now so you would be helping someone out if you put a stop to this auction.

I have never sold anything on ebay, just privately or through auction house. How long after you ship something are the funds in your account and available for withdrawal? I wonder if the plan of this kind of a seller is to cash the money out and close all associated accounts before a claim can be filed. It seems relatively easy to pad a feedback score with a bunch of cheap transactions and then go for a big score like this 52 Mantle. Very scary for collectors who don't know better.

[ullmandds]

what does private sale mean?

[jfkheat]

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut2011/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684

[itjclarke]

Thanks for outing this one Peter. The card does look really bad, but it's scary to me to imagine if/when someone sticks an authentic, but maybe slightly trimmed Mantle into a holder like this. I've seen a few really nice authentic Mantles sell this year. You could turn $5-$10K cards into $40-$70K cards pretty quickly with these legit looking holders.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut2011/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684


no negative feedback after selling 6 or so fake cards for 1000s?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut2011/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684

Ebay, as best I can tell from experience, is completely unwilling to take action. Even when PSA itself notifies them. They just pay lip service to you when you call.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Ebay, as best I can tell from experience, is completely unwilling to take action. Even when PSA itself notifies them. They just pay lip service to you when you call.

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

Jake are you saying you don't look at the listings? Be truthful now.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jake are you saying you don't look at the listings? Be truthful now.

no I don't anymore . never going to buy so why look...people do email me from time to time to see if I recognize a listing I not looking to buy etc and will never click the listing on my own anymore.

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?..I wouldn't even bother to click the listing..its like that now for me on 51B mantle and 52T mantle....if I want one ill just have to pay at a real auction house or from an established real seller ....it really a waste of time now to look to buy from joe public....

[Peter_Spaeth]

no I don't anymore . never going to buy so why look...people do email me from time to time to see if I recognize a listing I not looking to buy etc and will never click the listing on my own anymore.

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?..I wouldn't even bother to click the listing..its like that now for me on 51B mantle and 52T mantle....if I want one ill just have to pay at a real auction house or from an established real seller ....it really a waste of time now to look to buy from joe public....

Well you were as recently as a couple of weeks ago on a PSA 4 52T Mantle, right? The one being offered by "Walter" that I showed you was a fake using a serial number from a past auction?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well you were as recently as a couple of weeks ago on a PSA 4 52T Mantle, right? The one being offered by "Walter" that I showed you was a fake using a serial number from a past auction?

like I said..i don't look anymore its a waste of time....people shouldn't be worried about putting funds in escrow etc...they are all fake...why even risk it....I wont even click any of the listings anymore...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well I agree with you there, they are all fake. But I don't feel badly about alerting people and trying to do my part to stop it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well I agree with you there, they are all fake. But I don't feel badly about alerting people and trying to do my part to stop it.

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

[pokerplyr80]

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

If you're talking about me I wasted about 5 minutes contacting the ebay seller. I've wasted more time reading this thread. I only suggested putting the money in an escrow account to see what he would say. Had he agreed I would have talked to him on the phone, asked for more scans, done whatever I could to verify he had the card before paying any escrow fees. I'm not an idiot.

Didn't you say you bought a 52 Mantle off craigslist? There may have been a 1 in a million shot this ebay seller actually had this card, or less. But it didn't hurt anything to find out for sure. Just like it was along shot someone was actually selling a 52 Mantle on craigslist.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you're talking about me I wasted about 5 minutes contacting the ebay seller. I've wasted more time reading this thread. I only suggested putting the money in an escrow account to see what he would say. Had he agreed I would have talked to him on the phone, asked for more scans, done whatever I could to verify he had the card before paying any escrow fees. I'm not an idiot.

Didn't you say you bought a 52 Mantle off craigslist? There may have been a 1 in a million shot this ebay seller actually had this card, or less. But it didn't hurt anything to find out for sure. Just like it was along shot someone was actually selling a 52 Mantle on craigslist.

I bought that mantle years ago ..like my post says..times have changed for the mantle....you constantly contact private sellers with no feedback and go into negotiations on several mantles..not just this one in this thread..you have spent much more time in the past few weeks going after fake mantles than reading this thread.....plus the fact you would even contemplate into entering in phone negotiations , wait for verification and put the card/funds in escrow etc sounds like a heck of a lot of time for a fake mantle.....you can do what you want ..I just think its a waste of time now and getting updates on how the mantle is fake with a guy with 5 feedback with past sales of a $5.55 cent blowdryer or whatever is more of a waste of time....and now in the category of buying a T206 PSA Wagner from private seller with no reputation..i don't think people would bother with negotiating the price on the wagner and deal with escrow and verification because they know its fake...but to each their own..i just know I no longer will even to bother clicking the listings for 1952 mantles ...if I want one ill get one from a real seller or at an auction.....

[pokerplyr80]

I watch ebay and auction sites for mantles but unfortunately passed on a few in recent months and the prices have gotten out of my range. I have contacted 3 or 4 sellers in the last year from eBay who I now believe had fake mantles or fake pictures of real ones. It certainly is not constantly and never takes much time because these frauds are just looking for someone who will send them money without asking many questions. I mentioned I would talk to someone on the phone and ask for more scans because this also wouldn't take much time and a scammer would be less likely to take those steps. I would take the same precautions with a seller I believe had a real card I was spending thousands or 10s of thousands of dollars on.

[Bored5000]

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

Obviously, there is an issue with scammers trying to sell fake 52T Mantles on eBay, just as there is with any iconic, high dollar card.

But the reason people don't view a 52T Mantle the same way they view a T206 Wagner is because it simply isn't. T206resource.com doesn't show even one real T206 Wagner as ever having sold on eBay; Real 52T Mantles still sell many times over on eBay.

A destroyed, beater of a trimmed Wagner T206 is still a quarter of a million dollar card. The 52T Mantle has been on a sharp rise of late, but it is nowhere near that kind of value.

[Huck]

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

As a relative newbie to the board, I sincerely appreciate the education that the collectors here provide. I am sure pointing out fakes to long time members gets tiresome but there are new members who join the site daily.

[Huck]

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?.

That observation made me laugh out loud.

[Huck]

I bought that mantle years ago ..like my post says..times have changed for the mantle....you constantly contact private sellers with no feedback and go into negotiations on several mantles..not just this one in this thread..you have spent much more time in the past few weeks going after fake mantles than reading this thread.....plus the fact you would even contemplate into entering in phone negotiations , wait for verification and put the card/funds in escrow etc sounds like a heck of a lot of time for a fake mantle.....you can do what you want ..I just think its a waste of time now and getting updates on how the mantle is fake with a guy with 5 feedback with past sales of a $5.55 cent blowdryer or whatever is more of a waste of time....and now in the category of buying a T206 PSA Wagner from private seller with no reputation..i don't think people would bother with negotiating the price on the wagner and deal with escrow and verification because they know its fake...but to each their own..i just know I no longer will even to bother clicking the listings for 1952 mantles ...if I want one ill get one from a real seller or at an auction.....

I am one collector who appreciates those who point out fakes and the reasons the cards are/look off. Not that I am in the market for a 52 Mantle but I do appreciate the education. I am sure there are others. Like the campaign says "If you see something, say something."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Obviously, there is an issue with scammers trying to sell fake 52T Mantles on eBay, just as there is with any iconic, high dollar card.

But the reason people don't view a 52T Mantle the same way they view a T206 Wagner is because it simply isn't. T206resource.com doesn't show even one real T206 Wagner as ever having sold on eBay; Real 52T Mantles still sell many times over on eBay.

A destroyed, beater of a trimmed Wagner T206 is still a quarter of a million dollar card. The 52T Mantle has been on a sharp rise of late, but it is nowhere near that kind of value.

psa 6 mantles from private sellers with no real history and have no business accountability don't sell anymore on ebay as well or psa 5s or 4s..... there are wagners for sale on ebay though that the seller doesn't flat out say they are 'fake'......like I said..in the past maybe you could find a deal or two..but now they are all fake...yeah they are not 250k cards..but you can have fake cards that are 30k just as easily as one that is 250k...... please point out the next legit mantle that sells from a guy with feedback of less than 50 that nobody has ever heard of than sells a mantle for 20k+ ...maybe he found the card in the garage or he or she is selling their granfathers collection or they recently renovated a house and found them in the walls so they are all real...anyway im guessing it never happens

..once it does than I wont believe they are all fakes....basically id like to see people pointing out real ones now and not fake ones since they are fake....threads on real ones would be ok by me..but like I said anyone can do what they want...I just not clicking on anymore of those sketchy mantle listings.

[Bored5000]

psa 6 mantles from private sellers with no real history and have no business accountability don't sell anymore on ebay as well or psa 5s or 4s..... there are wagners for sale on ebay though that the seller doesn't flat out say they are 'fake'......like I said..in the past maybe you could find a deal or two..but now they are all fake...yeah they are not 250k cards..but you can have fake cards that are 30k just as easily as one that is 250k...... please point out the next legit mantle that sells from a guy with feedback of less than 50 that nobody has ever heard of than sells a mantle for 20k+ ...maybe he found the card in the garage or he or she is selling their granfathers collection or they recently renovated a house and found them in the walls so they are all real...anyway im guessing it never happens

..once it does than I wont believe they are all fakes....basically id like to see people pointing out real ones now and not fake ones since they are fake....threads on real ones would be ok by me..but like I said anyone can do what they want...I just not clicking on anymore of those sketchy mantle listings.

You are changing the metrics from your previous statement that the 52T Mantle is in the same category as T206 Wagners. History has shown that there has never been a real Wagner sold on eBay -- by anyone. Now, you are adding the qualifier that you were only talking about 52T Mantles priced at $20,000+ and offered by sellers with a feedback below 50.

You can make the exact same point that anyone buying a $20,000+ card from a low feedback seller on eBay is a fool, not just when the card being offered is a 52T Mantle.

[1952boyntoncollector]

You are changing the metrics from your previous statement that the 52T Mantle is in the same category as T206 Wagners. History has shown that there has never been a real Wagner sold on eBay -- by anyone. Now, you are adding the qualifier that you were only talking about 52T Mantles priced at $20,000+ and offered by sellers with a feedback below 50.

You can make the exact same point that anyone buying a $20,000+ card from a low feedback seller on eBay is a fool, not just when the card being offered is a 52T Mantle.

giving a general range......but its not just about the price....its clear there are fake holders with the mantle now...the fake holder issue is far more frequent in the mantle that some other cards in the $20,000-$60,000 price range..so again its not just about price..I said things have changed....there are fakes for less than that range now as well even in the $10,000 range...51B Mantles as well

its really going to have to be the auction route now ..

here is t206 wagner...... no one has to start a thread about it being fake......now with the mantle in that price range you no longer have too as well..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner-T-206-Baseball-Card-/252159030827?hash=item3ab5d9762b:g:TR4AAOSwT5tWMO-9


maybe should of done a direct deal on this mantle and put funds in escrow waiting to see if card was real...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-311-MICKEY-MANTLE-NEW-YORK-YANKEES-ROOKIE-PSA-GRADED-4-/281807313228?hash=item419d06594c:g:oCIAAOSwuTxWALz 0

[pokerplyr80]

giving a general range......but its not just about the price....its clear there are fake holders with the mantle now...the fake holder issue is far more frequent in the mantle that some other cards in the $20,000-$60,000 price range..so again its not just about price..I said things have changed....there are fakes for less than that range now as well even in the $10,000 range...51B Mantles as well

its really going to have to be the auction route now ..

here is t206 wagner...... no one has to start a thread about it being fake......now with the mantle in that price range you no longer have too as well..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner-T-206-Baseball-Card-/252159030827?hash=item3ab5d9762b:g:TR4AAOSwT5tWMO-9


maybe should of done a direct deal on this mantle and put funds in escrow waiting to see if card was real...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-311-MICKEY-MANTLE-NEW-YORK-YANKEES-ROOKIE-PSA-GRADED-4-/281807313228?hash=item419d06594c:g:oCIAAOSwuTxWALz 0

That Mantle is real. It's currently listed for 32k OBO by the seller who actually has it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

That Mantle is real. It's currently listed for 32k OBO by the seller who actually has it.

looks like the fake seller got $13,500 on the card and someone gave a negative feedback saying you will never get the card...... I guess no red flag for a centered psa 4 for $13,500.......the buyer of that fake mantle should of put money in escrow and talked to the seller...or better yet not even click the listing..

[pokerplyr80]

looks like the fake seller got $13,500 on the card and someone gave a negative feedback saying you will never get the card...... I guess no red flag for a centered psa 4 for $13,500.......the buyer of that fake mantle should of put money in escrow and talked to the seller...or better yet not even click the listing..

That's why I suggested placing money in an escrow account, to see what the seller would say. I would take several additional steps in a case where the seller's credibility was an issue before actually doing it. And I certainly wouldn't just send it through paypal or a wire transfer. Scams like this usually fall apart quickly simply by requesting a few extra pictures or a phone conversation.

[rjackson44]

Jesse the card is a fake a scam why even bother

[pokerplyr80]

Jesse the card is a fake a scam why even bother

I really just wanted to see what he would have to say. I sent a total of 3 emails in about 5 minutes. I had not seen this thread at that point but even if I had I still might have messaged him to see how he would react.

[rjackson44]

Jesse he's a scammer

[rjackson44]

I sent him a nasty one never heard from him

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jesse the card is a fake a scam why even bother

Exactly.

By the way the damn card (er, photoshopped image) is still up there, despite a multiple front effort to get it taken down including PSA. WTF is wrong with ebay.

[rjackson44]

Peter this will never end its sad

[BulletBob]

I am one collector who appreciates those who point out fakes and the reasons the cards are/look off. Not that I am in the market for a 52 Mantle but I do appreciate the education. I am sure there are others. Like the campaign says "If you see something, say something."

I would just like to point out how much I agree with this post. I've been a member for a few months and have only been a "lurker" until now, but the education has been amazing. I am by no means in the market for the more expensive cards but I do feel smarter knowing what to look for in a fake. For those who are new to vintage cards, the posts pointing out the various fake cards on ebay are amazingly helpful.

[Stampsfan]

+1

As a relative newbie to this Forum (but not the Sports Collectibles hobby), I sincerely appreciate any knowledge on these cards that people are willing to share. I also find it interesting how people do interact with these scammers, and what the reactions are. I don't know everything about everything, and I like to learn from everyone's experiences.

What I do find tiring about this site is the back and forth between members who seem to worry about how another member spends his time. For example, more than half of this thread is useless banter, less that half is valuable information. I am on this site (wasting my time? ;) ) to get valuable information, not to read about someone telling someone else they are an idiot for spending time doing something. Quit trying to convince everyone how smart you are.

Please keep up the valuable posts, and anyone, please feel free to point out a fake or scam on eBay. There are many of us who truly want to know the information regarding the hobby they enjoy.

[rjackson44]

Bob well said but the card is a fake and hes a scam artist ,its a crime welcome to the board octavio

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter this will never end its sad

30K and going strong. :D

[pokerplyr80]

Jesse he's a scammer

I assumed as much and my suspicions were quickly confirmed. 30k with 2 days left. Hopefully whoever wins this auction realizes this is a scam before the money is sent. Although I don't really feel too bad for anyone who would sent that much money without verifying the card's authenticity and that the seller actually has it first.

Is there any cap on the ebay or paypal guarantee?

[chernieto]

I I don't really feel too bad for anyone who would sent that much money without verifying the card's authenticity and that the seller actually has it first.


Not even in the holiday season ?
Cold.

[pokerplyr80]

Lol well I would hope that anyone who can afford to spend 30k + on a fake baseball card, or even a real one, would have enough left over to buy the kids a few Christmas gifts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like someone bid 35 and he ended it. Good luck, buyer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281861829918?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-MICKEY-MANTLE-311-PSA-5-GRADE-ORIGINAL-/191747232146?hash=item2ca5069192:g:7ykAAOSwHQ9WV8z 2

[gregr2]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-MICKEY-MANTLE-311-PSA-5-GRADE-ORIGINAL-/191747232146?hash=item2ca5069192:g:7ykAAOSwHQ9WV8z 2


Well at least it's not a "REPAINT".

[rjackson44]

You dont really think someone paid for this garbage 🙈🙈🙈

[Peter_Spaeth]

Any takers?

[pokerplyr80]

Same seller different name on that one? The card looks very similar as does the wording on the listing. I won't be making any offers out of curiosity on this one but it's already at 20k. I wonder if the winning bidder is actually going to send the money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's amazing people do not take the time to learn to spot an obvious fake. Some are of course better than others but not this one.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It's amazing people do not take the time to learn to spot an obvious fake. Some are of course better than others but not this one.

if see a fake one in a new psa holder that would be news..if that happens id like to know

[Topps206]

What constitutes a fake Mantle?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here is the latest fake being offered yet again. Weird. Different account but obviously same seller. Ebay is wonderful.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-Rookie-311-PSA-5-/131663676006?hash=item1ea7c44266:g:s7EAAOSwnH1WWxg 7

[Bestdj777]

What constitutes a fake Mantle?

One that isn't real.

[Topps206]

One that isn't real.

That's to be implied, but I can spot a fake T206. I might not be able to spot a fake Mantle. Sometimes I can tell a reprint but not always.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Variations A and B each should have some idiosyncracies that the reprints often don't have. Do a google search for how to spot a counterfeit Mantle.

[pokerplyr80]

What constitutes a fake Mantle?

An interesting question in that I think the real risk to collectors will be when the people creating these fake Mantles in real or real looking PSA cases start actually using real 52 Mantle cards. Nice looking altered Mantles that can be bought for around 10k in a real PSA 6 or 7 case could go for a lot of money. What happens when one is good enough to fool a major auction house? Or a top ebay seller like PWCC or Probstein?

[Peter_Spaeth]

An interesting question in that I think the real risk to collectors will be when the people creating these fake Mantles in real or real looking PSA cases start actually using real 52 Mantle cards. Nice looking altered Mantles that can be bought for around 10k in a real PSA 6 or 7 case could go for a lot of money. What happens when one is good enough to fool a major auction house? Or a top ebay seller like PWCC or Probstein?

If I were one of thems I would insist on a new style holder.

[pokerplyr80]

If I were one of thems I would insist on a new style holder.

That, or an agreement that an item be sent to PSA for verification and a new holder before payment. It may get to the point where that's necessary even if buying from a major AH. Or the AH will have to do it before listing the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This one is very close although the flip lettering doesn't quite line up on the left hand side. Once again, that message in the same font about reserving the right to end early.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-Yankees-311-PSA-7-NM-/281871977620?hash=item41a0e10c94:g:nT8AAOSwAKxWXQq a

Ebay pic, and then the real one from 03 Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you don't want his Mantle, you can opt for this flashlight, which oddly enough is in California not Philadelphia with the Mantle.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultrafire-XML-L2-LED-Zoomable-Flashlight-/281868948224?hash=item41a0b2d300:g:uI4AAOSwcBhWWMx 6

[Leon]

This one is very close although the flip lettering doesn't quite line up on the left hand side. Once again, that message in the same font about reserving the right to end early.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-Yankees-311-PSA-7-NM-/281871977620?hash=item41a0e10c94:g:nT8AAOSwAKxWXQq a

Ebay pic, and then the real one from 03 Mastro.

Ending an auction early if the price is met in an auction? That should be against ebay rules. And this guy is a perfect feedback and longtime ebayer. What is going on? Are these seemingly great ebayers scammers, being fooled, etc...?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The fraudster may be buying IDs is my speculation. They probably bid on a few cheap items to build up some recent feedback, note that they have none as a seller here, it's all from more than a year ago.

[Leon]

The fraudster may be buying IDs is my speculation. They probably bid on a few cheap items to build up some recent feedback, note that they have none as a seller here, it's all from more than a year ago.

Got it....their most recent feedback is over 1 yr old. And their ebay name kind of fits what they are doing......

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=mr.shadeproducts&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller


.

[1952boyntoncollector]

The fraudster may be buying IDs is my speculation. They probably bid on a few cheap items to build up some recent feedback, note that they have none as a seller here, it's all from more than a year ago.


show me this fake mantle in a new holder and that would be news....incidentally the two mantles could look the same..i realize its a fake for obvious reasons but sometimes scans are of different sizes and colors aren't the same even with the exact card when taken with two different kinds of scanners..settings could be different on scanner..... again I know this card is fake but just because a card looks a little different color or as spot doesn't who well on one pictures versus another doesn't mean its not the same card..

[Peter_Spaeth]

show me this fake mantle in a new holder and that would be news....incidentally the two mantles could look the same..i realize its a fake for obvious reasons but sometimes scans are of different sizes and colors aren't the same even with the exact card when taken with two different kinds of scanners..settings could be different on scanner..... again I know this card is fake but just because a card looks a little different color or as spot doesn't who well on one pictures versus another doesn't mean its not the same card..

Yes that is true, but if you read my post, I called attention to differences in the flips, not the cards. They don't align the same way. I suppose someone could have reholdered a card and gotten a newer generation flip, but that seems pretty unlikely here.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Ending an auction early if the price is met in an auction? That should be against ebay rules. And this guy is a perfect feedback and longtime ebayer. What is going on? Are these seemingly great ebayers scammers, being fooled, etc...?


if theres an active bid and an item is taken off..ebay makes you pay a 10% fee in most cases on the highest bid..so at 21,000 would cost $2,000 to remove it in theory...

of course if the bank account that was linked to paypal is now closed ebay will have to send collection letters etc ...im sure ebay losses to fraud is factored into their fees

[jfkheat]

Jeff from Card Country just posted the following message on another forum.
James

Looks like another scam/stolen scan brewing. This time it's a 52 mantle Psa 7 Item # 281871977620 I contacted him and asked him for a history of the card and for some hobby references. In his first response he only gave me his cell number and didn't address my questions. When I asked a 2nd time, here's his response: I bought it in 2010 from PSA auctions. for $34100. I request a deposit as a gift to my paypal for $5000 and i will ship the card to you to check it. After you are sure its authentic, you can send me the rest of the money still as a gift so i won't be forced to pay feeds. Beware! Jeff

[Peter_Spaeth]

Seller has ended it, most likely found a victim who will pay offline.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jeff from Card Country just posted the following message on another forum.
James

Looks like another scam/stolen scan brewing. This time it's a 52 mantle Psa 7 Item # 281871977620 I contacted him and asked him for a history of the card and for some hobby references. In his first response he only gave me his cell number and didn't address my questions. When I asked a 2nd time, here's his response: I bought it in 2010 from PSA auctions. for $34100. I request a deposit as a gift to my paypal for $5000 and i will ship the card to you to check it. After you are sure its authentic, you can send me the rest of the money still as a gift so i won't be forced to pay feeds. Beware! Jeff

so funny that seller worried about paying fees....yeah that's enough to convince me to gift him money..he should have at least said send 3% more if not a gift..people trying to get 'steal's would choose the gift

[1952boyntoncollector]

Jeff from Card Country just posted the following message on another forum.
James

Looks like another scam/stolen scan brewing. This time it's a 52 mantle Psa 7 Item # 281871977620 I contacted him and asked him for a history of the card and for some hobby references. In his first response he only gave me his cell number and didn't address my questions. When I asked a 2nd time, here's his response: I bought it in 2010 from PSA auctions. for $34100. I request a deposit as a gift to my paypal for $5000 and i will ship the card to you to check it. After you are sure its authentic, you can send me the rest of the money still as a gift so i won't be forced to pay feeds. Beware! Jeff

which forum?

[pawpawdiv9]

I like the one with the 56 Mickey PSA 9..and the seller copied/lifted the sale from Probstein (pic and description) and a CU board member swore he had that card beside him.

[jfkheat]

which forum?

Collector's Universe
James

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-EX-MT-6-/331723374428?hash=item4d3c40ff5c:g:K10AAOSwHQ9WX4t t

Could just be a new flip. But again, the left side of the holder doesn't look so great, the ID has the telltale signs and once again the seller reserves the right to sell if his price is met. Hmmm....

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL I thought the cert looked familiar. From a prior fake.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the card is real but the scan is stolen from a PWCC auction. And the back does not match the front.

[ullmandds]

do you guys think this bowman is legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Bowman-Mickey-Mantle-ROOKIE-RC-253-PSA-3-VG-/262169373315?hash=item3d0a832a83:g:~GEAAOSwnipWYxo b

[pokerplyr80]

do you guys think this bowman is legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Bowman-Mickey-Mantle-ROOKIE-RC-253-PSA-3-VG-/262169373315?hash=item3d0a832a83:g:~GEAAOSwnipWYxo b

It looks fine to me. The seller has other high end cards for sale. I'd say this one is safe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-psa-4-/121835778946?hash=item1c5dfa7382:g:tWgAAOSwp5JWZ0x 8

[pokerplyr80]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-psa-4-/121835778946?hash=item1c5dfa7382:g:tWgAAOSwp5JWZ0x 8

Strange how they use the same wording in the listing. I guess they don't want these auctions to run their course. I wonder if people are actually stupid enough to just wire money or send paypal FF in hopes of a bargain.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Strange how they use the same wording in the listing. I guess they don't want these auctions to run their course. I wonder if people are actually stupid enough to just wire money or send paypal FF in hopes of a bargain.

I wish I understood how they hijack these accounts.

[pokerplyr80]

I wish I understood how they hijack these accounts.

If that's what they're doing I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to hack into an ebay account. I'm no hacker but for an expert I don't think it's too tough. They could also just be building a rating with a few small transactions and then going for the big score. Scary either way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If that's what they're doing I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to hack into an ebay account. I'm no hacker but for an expert I don't think it's too tough. They could also just be building a rating with a few small transactions and then going for the big score. Scary either way.

I am pretty sure they are hijacking. The accounts have been around awhile. They seem to have an endless supply.

[pokerplyr80]

I am pretty sure they are hijacking. The accounts have been around awhile. They seem to have an endless supply.

Probably some kind of password hacking software. I have also heard of devices that can intercept information from people using cell phones. It seems like one of these listings pops up every few days. They might be doing the same thing with other high end cards that we aren't watching. Jordan rookies perhaps, or other high profile vintage cards.

[Leon]

Strange how they use the same wording in the listing. I guess they don't want these auctions to run their course. I wonder if people are actually stupid enough to just wire money or send paypal FF in hopes of a bargain.

I venture to guess there is a sucker born every day.

[ezez420]

It is the same couple of a$$holes doing it. Notice that he puts a piece of paper with seller id to make as if legit. One of these guys is the same guy that is hiding in Mexico. It isnt just cards he is doing it with. He has been doing this for years. All high dollar items.

Another guy is one that sells baby items also who is wanted across the US. The other guy is one that sells patches and builds up bs feedback then sells a high dollar card. Or should I say tries.

[Joe_G.]

Maybe already covered elsewhere, but I just noticed Goodwin & Co. pulled PSA8 Mantle from current auction due to authenticity concerns. This caught me by surprise and remembered this thread.

Here is link to pulled auction lot: http://goodwinandco.com/Remarkable_1952_Topps_Mickey_Mantle__311_PSA_8_NM_-LOT31556.aspx

[ullmandds]

wow! That's big.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did anyone save a scan?

[steve_a]

Did anyone save a scan?

If not I imagine catalogues are already in the mail for our armchair forensic analysis.

[steve_a]

Here you go-

[botn]

Cert is not valid. Not an expert detecting fake flips but should the last one in 311 line up directly over the vertical part of the T in NM-MT?

[Iron Horse]

Wow!, you are right cert # is not a valid one in PSA registry

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least judging by a couple of other examples of newer flips, the "S" at the end of Topps should be further to the left of "N" in Mantle, also. Well, if there are fakes in the new holders, that is going to shake things up.

For comparison on the lettering.

[MattyC]

I have had several cards graded by PSA over the years, whose cert numbers came back as unknown when entered into their site's verification feature. When this happened, they had me send the cards back and they then logged the certs into their database. This may very well be the case here, time will tell. But it's worth noting that an unknown cert is by no means proof positive a card/slab is fake. Often times it's fine but they didn't put the cert into the system after grading or bumping.

[botn]

I have had several cards graded by PSA over the years, whose cert numbers came back as unknown when entered into their site's verification feature. When this happened, they had me send the cards back and they then logged the certs into their database. This may very well be the case here, time will tell. But it's worth noting that an unknown cert is by no means proof positive a card/slab is fake. Often times it's fine but they didn't put the cert into the system after grading or bumping.

That's all well and good but that is not at all the situation in this case. The invalid cert number is not from a failure to enter it at the time of grading.

[steve_a]

It's possible that they pulled the cert if the card was determined to be fake. Anyone check the cert last week?

[MW1]

Here you go-Looks like the holder has been compromised. This is especially evident along the right and left edges. Also, the hologram on the flip doesn't look like that when scanned and, as has been pointed out already, the font alignment is wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mike I've seen some scans where the hologram looks solid gray like that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Diamond-Stars-1-Lefty-Grove-PSA-8-NONE-Graded-Higher-/291621126563?hash=item43e5f941a3:g:IiAAAOSw9mFWHWZ F

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Tim-Keefe-PSA-8-1-of-2-NONE-Graded-Higher-/291621119608?hash=item43e5f92678:g:eBkAAOSw5ZBWHWJ y

Unless I am missing some subtle difference? Or maybe not so subtle and I am just missing it.

[pokerplyr80]

So that card looks good to me. What is the thought on this one? That it's a really good fake? Or that someone used a real under-graded or altered Mantle and put it into a fake 8 holder?

Peter, since you're in this thread if this is a fake does a fraud of this magnitude warrant serious jail time if someone were found to be guilty? Can you be prosecuted for submitting a fake card into a public auction?

[glchen]

I really don't know how you can compromise one of the new PSA holders like that. I've basically destroyed the holder when I've tried to crack a card out. Obviously when the $$$$ get that big, someone has a huge incentive to find a way.

[MW1]

Mike I've seen some scans where the hologram looks solid gray like that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Diamond-Stars-1-Lefty-Grove-PSA-8-NONE-Graded-Higher-/291621126563?hash=item43e5f941a3:g:IiAAAOSw9mFWHWZ F

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Tim-Keefe-PSA-8-1-of-2-NONE-Graded-Higher-/291621119608?hash=item43e5f92678:g:eBkAAOSw5ZBWHWJ y

Unless I am missing some subtle difference? Or maybe not so subtle and I am just missing it.
Those look different. In nearly every case, there's some reflective evidence of an actual hologram/background image. I'm not seeing that on the Goodwin flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Those look different. In nearly every case, there's some reflective evidence of an actual hologram/background image. I'm not seeing that on the Goodwin flip.

Yeah, I see what you mean, although it would not have jumped out at me before you mentioned it.

If there was no hologram, you would think Bill would have noticed that immediately though?

[bxb]

At least judging by a couple of other examples of newer flips, the "S" at the end of Topps should be further to the left of "N" in Mantle, also. Well, if there are fakes in the new holders, that is going to shake things up.

For comparison on the lettering.

Agreed.

Looks like a fake flip.

The cert #s on the PSA registry before and after 5006-8216 were mostly low grade 49 Bowmans.

Caveat emptor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's getting tougher to be an emptor if this is the new norm.

[sbfinley]

From the f/b scan is there anything standing out to question the card's authenticity? I'm not an expert on the card but it looks like a token second print. In truth the one thing that jumps out is what seems to be an enhanced scan.

As for hologram, I recently noticed when I scanned the new flips at 1200dpi the holos were extremely flat, could just be that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I really don't know how you can compromise one of the new PSA holders like that. I've basically destroyed the holder when I've tried to crack a card out. Obviously when the $$$$ get that big, someone has a huge incentive to find a way.

You must not be doing it right. :D

[MW1]

This card is emblematic of a much larger problem in the hobby: Dealers and auction companies that sell high-ticket vintage cards without proper practical knowledge about the nuances of grading, while lacking the necessary tools to eliminate altered and counterfeit cards from their inventories. For every 707 Sportscards that's out there, you've got dozens of relatively recent start-up eBay vendors, some with very high and seemingly impressive feedback numbers, who simply cannot differentiate between real and fake vintage sports cards--especially when the issue in question is unusual or scarce.

The first layer of customer security should always reside with the vendor, not with a knowledgeable customer who has to send an email to an auction company or online eBay seller informing them that their 1952 Topps Mantle is bogus. Just something to think about.

One mistaken notion, I believe, is that the real "value" of a card is solely dictated by its aftermarket sales price. That's really short-sighted. The accumulated knowledge and expertise of the seller, which should be used to guide the buyer during a purchase, is also imperative. The amount of money wasted by collectors just this last year on bogus high-ticket vintage cards is staggering. It's time to put more stock in knowledge and place less value on the sticker price of a card sold by an inexperienced, high-feedback, gimmick-driven eBay seller or auction company whose greatest asset is its recognizable name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This flip doesn't look much different than the Goodwin 8.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This card is emblematic of a much larger problem in the hobby: Dealers and auction companies that sell high-ticket vintage cards without proper practical knowledge about the nuances of grading, while lacking the necessary tools to eliminate altered and counterfeit cards from their inventories. For every 707 Sportscards that's out there, you've got dozens of relatively recent start-up eBay vendors, some with very high and seemingly impressive feedback numbers, who simply cannot differentiate between real and fake vintage sports cards--especially when the issue in question is unusual or scarce.

The first layer of customer security should always reside with the vendor, not with a knowledgeable customer who has to send an email to an auction company or online eBay seller informing them that their 1952 Topps Mantle is bogus. Just something to think about.

One mistaken notion, I believe, is that the real "value" of a card is solely dictated by its aftermarket sales price. That's really short-sighted. The accumulated knowledge and expertise of the seller, which should be used to guide the buyer during a purchase, is also imperative. The amount of money wasted by collectors just this last year on bogus high-ticket vintage cards is staggering. It's time to put more stock in knowledge and place less value on the sticker price of a card sold by an inexperienced, high-feedback, gimmick-driven eBay seller or auction company whose greatest asset is its recognizable name.

Could part of that be that in the era of third party grading, many sellers no longer feel compelled to make independent assessments, or have not felt the need to develop the requisite knowledge?

[MW1]

This flip doesn't look much different than the Goodwin 8.There's still two subtle but evident differences:

http://www.bmwcards.net/net54/PSA_holograms.jpg

1. The size and position of "PSA" relative to the edges of the bounding box formed by the hologram.
2. The sharpness of the corners of the hologram -- on the allegedly fake hologram, the corners of the box appear slightly rounded.

I'd like to see an enlarged image of the 1952 Mantle that was removed from the auction. Because of the scanning method that was used, it is difficult to tell what the background of the hologram really looks like in the smaller image.

[Iron Horse]

Walter Payton does show up on PSA certificate match. The hologram however does match the fake Mantle

[MW1]

Could part of that be that in the era of third party grading, many sellers no longer feel compelled to make independent assessments, or have not felt the need to develop the requisite knowledge?I don't agree with the independent assessment part. Just look at all of the "certified high end" cards selling for premium prices in the marketplace. But the latter, yes, quite true. Lots of horses following the carts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree with the independent assessment part. Just look at all of the "certified high end" cards selling for premium prices in the marketplace. But the latter, yes, quite true. Lots of horses following the carts.

Yeah I forgot about those. When I see them I just disregard the hype, but I guess for some people it matters.