View Full Version : Alert: a tale of two 51B Mantles
Peter_Spaeth
11-13-2015, 01:15 PM
Same serial number, but.... well, you judge.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
bn2cardz
11-13-2015, 01:39 PM
The importance of looking at the bar code. Because one of those bar codes doesn't work.
While I am no expert it appears to be a totally different card than the Huggins-Scott auction. First thing that jumped out at me was the dash between the VG -EX is a different size. Something just not right with this one.
Peter_Spaeth
11-13-2015, 01:44 PM
It's a fake in my opinion, for the reasons stated and others, but the question is, will ebay step up and do something about it or just pretend to "investigate"?
Stonepony
11-13-2015, 02:03 PM
Yowz, 2 different cards and 2 different flips
Same serial number, but.... well, you judge.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Quite scary and moved from the 1950s section for a bit more exposure.
Rookiemonster
11-13-2015, 04:23 PM
Wow I guess there just print mantle rookie like 1989 UD ken Griffey JR .
I'm impressed by the effort here . Do you think this was a inside job ?
It's gotta be right . Anyway this can't be a one of a kind and it can't just be mantle
CMIZ5290
11-13-2015, 04:26 PM
My opinion, not the same card at all. The biggest telling sign is the drastic diamond cut on the bottom that the other does not have, also the sharpness of the bottom right corner. Secondly, Ebay won't do s**t, just my thought....
Sophiedog
11-13-2015, 04:36 PM
The bottom one has a spot on his hat and a rough cut on the bottom of the card; so 2 different cards but same flip #. So if I'm understanding this right one of the flips is a fake?
Peter_Spaeth
11-13-2015, 04:39 PM
The bottom one has a spot on his hat and a rough cut on the bottom of the card; so 2 different cards but same flip #. So if I'm understanding this right one of the flips is a fake?
The ebay one, I believe. Welcome to the era of laser printing.
Sophiedog
11-13-2015, 04:49 PM
No telling how many other high dollar cards are out there with the bad flips. Explains the new PSA cases with the hologram. Good find.
Edward
11-13-2015, 04:49 PM
stone crab hasn't pulled it yet......must be legit.......or just a case of stone crab plausible deniability......
nhsportsguy
11-13-2015, 04:55 PM
Listing has been reported (probably by several people), so we'll see what happens.
pokerplyr80
11-13-2015, 05:51 PM
They certainly did a better job with the case and flip than the card in my opinion but it looks like it's good enough to fool most bidders. I don't know if every 51 bowman mantle has it, but I always look for what resembles a blue pen mark in the upper right corner above the bat. I see the real card has it in this case and the fake one doesn't. The same mark is on mine and a few others I checked right now out of curiosity on ebay.
egbeachley
11-13-2015, 07:36 PM
They certainly did a better job with the case and flip than the card in my opinion but it looks like it's good enough to fool most bidders. I don't know if every 51 bowman mantle has it, but I always look for what resembles a blue pen mark in the upper right corner above the bat. I see the real card has it in this case and the fake one doesn't. The same mark is on mine and a few others I checked right now out of curiosity on ebay.
The fake one has it, just lighter. Look closely.
How to tell the fake? The short dash on the flip helps and for some reason the bar code wasn't copied. Is there an app for bar codes?
Prof_Plum
11-13-2015, 08:35 PM
When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliteresearch.com/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.
From a google search....among other things...Code128 types are for alpha-numeric, all ASCII characters and used world-wide; interleaved2of5 are numeric only encoding digits in pairs
egbeachley
11-13-2015, 09:10 PM
When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliteresearch.com/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.
That is awesome and very informative.......except I have no idea what that really means.
Peter_Spaeth
11-14-2015, 08:03 AM
The backs, Huggins on the left.
jcc6252
11-14-2015, 08:59 AM
50/50 chance it's a PSA labeling error, but good work Pete.
Here's a card with a short hyphen in "VG-EX".
glynparson
11-14-2015, 11:13 AM
The non huggins and scott card looks bogus from these pics as does the flip.
50/50 chance it's a PSA labeling error, but good work Pete.
Here's a card with a short hyphen in "VG-EX".
Good work on posting the card with the short hyphen. There are no spaces before and after the hyphen on the card you posted. The Ebay card has spaces. Maybe PSA has printed labels using spaces along with not using spaces with the short hyphen. Maybe someone can add more in regards to PSA label printing. I know they have changed several times over the years.
The short hyphen card that Jim posted is also the old flip, so it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Also, a PSA labeling error is more akin to a typo or mislabeled issue. It would be nearly impossible and a complete coincidence for PSA to assign the same SN to the same exact card. It is much more likely that the eBay card is a fake or lower grade card inside a compromised holder. The eBay card shows a good deal of frosting on the edges of the holder as well.
pawpawdiv9
11-14-2015, 01:22 PM
Yeah, he looks also a bit sun-burned in the color tone.
Stuff like this scares the shite out of me, especially as I have been considering getting a 51 Mantle. Thanks for posting it.
Peter_Spaeth
11-14-2015, 06:41 PM
Stuff like this scares the shite out of me, especially as I have been considering getting a 51 Mantle. Thanks for posting it.
One of the more noxious forms of hobby fraud, though of course far from the only one. Restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it?
steve B
11-14-2015, 09:37 PM
Unfortunately it's nothing new especially with this card.
In I think 1982 maybe 81 a dealer I know showed me a 51 Mantle and asked me what I thought about it. After a few minutes of looking at it I said "It's in beautiful condition, but it's fake. I can't put my finger on anything in particular, but it's just "wrong" "
Apparently that was the opinion of the dealer and also of the 4-5 other dealers who had passed on buying it earlier. Nobody could point to anything and say "it's fake because of this. " but everyone thought it was fake.
I wonder where that card is today, it was very convincing, and if it wasn't for being able to handle stacks of Bowmans pretty much everywhere back then it might not be obvious.
Steve B
1952boyntoncollector
11-15-2015, 07:04 AM
Unfortunately it's nothing new especially with this card.
In I think 1982 maybe 81 a dealer I know showed me a 51 Mantle and asked me what I thought about it. After a few minutes of looking at it I said "It's in beautiful condition, but it's fake. I can't put my finger on anything in particular, but it's just "wrong" "
Apparently that was the opinion of the dealer and also of the 4-5 other dealers who had passed on buying it earlier. Nobody could point to anything and say "it's fake because of this. " but everyone thought it was fake.
I wonder where that card is today, it was very convincing, and if it wasn't for being able to handle stacks of Bowmans pretty much everywhere back then it might not be obvious.
Steve B
you would think that there are flips that look exactly like the original..it seems everyone is counting on the font being different or hyphen but we all know there will be exact lookalikes of the flip eventually...the card will never be exactly alike but its obvious there are graded cards out there that will be impossible to tell on the internet that people are buying that are fakes
Peter_Spaeth
11-15-2015, 08:33 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=true
ezez420
11-15-2015, 08:44 PM
This looks like the same jerkoff that I posted about a few weeks ago. I recollect the picture he took of the fake card last time was on that same book/ipad case.
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Stonepony
11-15-2015, 08:53 PM
What a shame for the buyer. I don't buy into the thoughts of " they got what they deserved for being naive about cards". These are sophisticated scams. I hope I'm not next.
Peter_Spaeth
11-15-2015, 08:55 PM
It's pretty stupid to buy a 5K card from a guy with essentially no feedback except on a couple of low dollar items, but still, that does not excuse fraud.
Stonepony
11-15-2015, 09:04 PM
It's pretty stupid to buy a 5K card from a guy with essentially no feedback except on a couple of low dollar items, but still, that does not excuse fraud.
Agree buying by from a low feedback seller is risky ( as for stupid...a lot of stupid people bought some amazing cards from me when I got back on eBay several years ago), but a card like this may eventually end up being offered by a more seasoned seller....idk....it's scary
Peter_Spaeth
11-15-2015, 09:21 PM
Agree buying by from a low feedback seller is risky ( as for stupid...a lot of stupid people bought some amazing cards from me when I got back on eBay several years ago), but a card like this may eventually end up being offered by a more seasoned seller....idk....it's scary
Guy has sold some $10 commons but now all of the sudden has a 5K Mantle card? People need to apply reason.
He did also sell a 56 Topps set for $1900, though how many of those are fake I have no idea.
pokerplyr80
11-15-2015, 10:47 PM
What a shame for the buyer. I don't buy into the thoughts of " they got what they deserved for being naive about cards". These are sophisticated scams. I hope I'm not next.
It's too bad there isn't way to get a message to the winner. 5k is a lot for a fake that certainly fooled quite a few people. I doubt the buyer would even think to send this one into PSA for verification and will most likely have no recourse after the fraud is discovered.
Peter_Spaeth
11-16-2015, 05:56 AM
It's too bad there isn't way to get a message to the winner. 5k is a lot for a fake that certainly fooled quite a few people. I doubt the buyer would even think to send this one into PSA for verification and will most likely have no recourse after the fraud is discovered.
No can do, thanks to ebay making everything invisible. Ebay does not seem interested in preventing fraud.
1952boyntoncollector
11-16-2015, 06:53 AM
No can do, thanks to ebay making everything invisible. Ebay does not seem interested in preventing fraud.
if fake ones go for 4800 (and many people didn't bid cause they knew it was fake) I wonder how much a real psa 4 goes for on ebay....no need to quote other AHs....just wondering at the next PWCC auction etc..
Rookiemonster
11-16-2015, 07:08 AM
Jordan rookie must be so easy to does this with . Some of those fakes are really really good .
pokerplyr80
11-16-2015, 04:35 PM
if fake ones go for 4800 (and many people didn't bid cause they knew it was fake) I wonder how much a real psa 4 goes for on ebay....no need to quote other AHs....just wondering at the next PWCC auction etc..
That was a dead centered fake 4. A dead centered real one in a pwcc I would say 6k give or take
ezez420
11-16-2015, 07:42 PM
It happens with Mantle Rc, Jordan Rcs, Cobbs, Wagners, Ruths, Montana & Rice RCs. To name a few.
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1952boyntoncollector
11-16-2015, 07:45 PM
It happens with Mantle Rc, Jordan Rcs, Cobbs, Wagners, Ruths, Montana & Rice RCs. To name a few.
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man so now if I want to buy waterfront properties..some of these homes aren't even real? not even the toilets..that sucks..
AustinMike
11-16-2015, 10:41 PM
The backs, Huggins on the left.
Isn't the whiteness in the upper left corner of the eBay card a tell that it is fake? Should the card stock be that white under the gray?
Prof_Plum
11-17-2015, 06:53 AM
When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliteresearch.com/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.
From a google search....among other things...Code128 types are for alpha-numeric, all ASCII characters and used world-wide; interleaved2of5 are numeric only encoding digits in pairs
Turns out PSA uses interleaved2of5 type for their barcodes. So the Ebay flip with the barcode using code128 type is bogus, which is pretty much what we've decided within this thread anyway.
So when checking barcodes against cert numbers, make sure the barcode not only matches the cert number but it is also of type "interleaved2of5".
ls7plus
11-17-2015, 08:30 PM
Guy has sold some $10 commons but now all of the sudden has a 5K Mantle card? People need to apply reason.
Nailed it, Pete, but it is very scary. Way to be on the lookout.
Highest regards,
Larry
slidekellyslide
11-17-2015, 08:40 PM
Didn't we have some members here who could get an ebay auction shut down? What happened there?
Peter_Spaeth
11-17-2015, 09:01 PM
Didn't we have some members here who could get an ebay auction shut down? What happened there?
It's worthless to try. I told Joe Orlando who says he told ebay, still no action was taken.
pokerplyr80
11-17-2015, 10:25 PM
It's worthless to try. I told Joe Orlando who says he told ebay, still no action was taken.
I find this statement very concerning. It's one thing when some random people report a card as fraud. Although a lot of you guys are obviously experts ebay doesn't know that. But to have essentially the head of PSA tell them a card is a fraud and they still let someone spend 5k on it? Not good.
1952boyntoncollector
11-18-2015, 05:53 AM
I find this statement very concerning. It's one thing when some random people report a card as fraud. Although a lot of you guys are obviously experts ebay doesn't know that. But to have essentially the head of PSA tell them a card is a fraud and they still let someone spend 5k on it? Not good.
its an easy lawsuit against ebay if that happens and the card is fake...and the buyer cant collect back from the seller he could go after ebay
ullmandds
11-18-2015, 06:04 AM
its an easy lawsuit against ebay if that happens and the card is fake...and the buyer cant collect back from the seller he could go after ebay
good luck "going after ebay."
1952boyntoncollector
11-18-2015, 06:47 AM
good luck "going after ebay."
man ebay is the juiciest thing around ..not sure why you made that comment...you should mean 'good luck going after poor guy that sells fake cards that's a criminal' you can find MANY lawyers that will sue ebay on a slam dunk case.....next you will say good luck going after Wal-Mart because they are such a big company.....its exactly the opposite the bigger the company the more likely you can find a lawyer who will take his or her chances..
there have been class actions against ebay...
Peter_Spaeth
11-18-2015, 06:52 AM
Yup. Haven't read enough to have an opinion on the merits though.
eBay, PayPal Face Class Action over Counterfeit Goods
August 20 2015
ebay.jpg Los Angeles, CA: Claims of consumer fraud have been filed against eBay® and PayPal® and various eBay Sellers in Federal Court under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and the Lanham Act claiming the defendants knowingly and deliberately facilitate, proliferate and profit from the ongoing sale of counterfeit and fake products on ebay.com.
1952boyntoncollector
11-18-2015, 07:10 AM
Yup. Haven't read enough to have an opinion on the merits though.
eBay, PayPal Face Class Action over Counterfeit Goods
August 20 2015
ebay.jpg Los Angeles, CA: Claims of consumer fraud have been filed against eBay® and PayPal® and various eBay Sellers in Federal Court under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and the Lanham Act claiming the defendants knowingly and deliberately facilitate, proliferate and profit from the ongoing sale of counterfeit and fake products on ebay.com.
right so an example already from just 3 months ago....yeah 'good luck going after ebay' maybe that's with phone calls or messages....but lawsuits are a different animal. Its easy enough to find someone to sue ebay and if they have merit...ie. PSA contacting them prior to the sale telling them they are fake' you would think that's enough merit to find attorneys who if successful can collect thousands if not millions in fees.... just a wild guess..
heres a case of a getting 1.2 million over a $36 dollar listing....good luck going after ebay...
http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y15/m10/i12/s01
ullmandds
11-18-2015, 07:17 AM
ok...so my command of the law sucks...BUT...for a $5-$15 award per person affected...doesn't seem worth it.
1952boyntoncollector
11-18-2015, 07:22 AM
ok...so my command of the law sucks...BUT...for a $5-$15 award per person affected...doesn't seem worth it.
if theres 1.2 million being paid..im sure theres a way..
also the mantle that is subject to this thread sold in the thousands...so im assuming the buyer will be looking for recourse after the fraud is found..
don't worry about it ullmandds ...at least you didn't use an analogy with mattresses to prove your point......
For the last couple of years eBay has aggressively enforced their guarantee for buyers. If the seller does not offer a refund then eBay will for up to 30 days after the sale and paypal has a similar guarantee that is good up to 180 days.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US#13
As long as both companies offer this type of indemnification I am not sure how many sales of counterfeit goods would actually create an opportunity for a lawsuit.
1952boyntoncollector
11-18-2015, 10:20 AM
For the last couple of years eBay has aggressively enforced their guarantee for buyers. If the seller does not offer a refund then eBay will for up to 30 days after the sale and paypal has a similar guarantee that is good up to 180 days.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US#13
As long as both companies offer this type of indemnification I am not sure how many sales of counterfeit goods would actually create an opportunity for a lawsuit.
right ..but like I said to generally say nobody would sue ebay for anything makes no sense....lots of lawyers itching to sue them..
for this particular scenerio..what if 11 months pass if you are sold a fake mantle shouldn't you still be able to get your money back...this is beyond the timeframes listed...and you cant say that argument has at least some merit.........I still was talking more generally..that companies like ebay are ripe for being sued...and not the opposite...
pokerplyr80
11-18-2015, 08:15 PM
For the last couple of years eBay has aggressively enforced their guarantee for buyers. If the seller does not offer a refund then eBay will for up to 30 days after the sale and paypal has a similar guarantee that is good up to 180 days.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US#13
As long as both companies offer this type of indemnification I am not sure how many sales of counterfeit goods would actually create an opportunity for a lawsuit.
What do you think the chances are that the buyer realizes this is a fake within 30 days? Or even 180? Unless something obviously looks off in hand, this could end up on a shelf, in a box, or even a bank vault and could be left there for months, or even years.
He may have a case against ebay but I don't think many collectors would be likely to pursue that course of action. And unless Peter or Joe are willing to testify it might be hard to prove they were aware of the fraud. I don't know if that's necessary, but it doesn't sound that easy to me any way.
1952boyntoncollector
11-19-2015, 08:08 AM
What do you think the chances are that the buyer realizes this is a fake within 30 days? Or even 180? Unless something obviously looks off in hand, this could end up on a shelf, in a box, or even a bank vault and could be left there for months, or even years.
He may have a case against ebay but I don't think many collectors would be likely to pursue that course of action. And unless Peter or Joe are willing to testify it might be hard to prove they were aware of the fraud. I don't know if that's necessary, but it doesn't sound that easy to me any way.
never easy...but they said the PSA guy called about the card being fake....prior notice is usually the issue on many types of cases whether its a dangerous condition or fraud etc...defendant will always deny...but you can also show 'should have known' standard.... plus if ebay has no mechanisms in place to really combat fraud and they know fraud happens a lot that could be a case too...... the fact that its ebay to sue and not joe schmoe only makes it more likely to find an attorney...not the lesser..
Rookiemonster
11-19-2015, 09:31 AM
My wife bought a stroller on eBay it was 235 or something like that . It was described as new . We got and used it twice and then noticed that there was repairs and the stitching was coming off . So we called eBay and it got resolved fast and got all the money back .
It was past the time they allow as well .
The issue here is that it's probaly a Christmas gift and the true collector won't see it until December 24
Peter_Spaeth
11-19-2015, 11:40 AM
I guess something happened.
This listing (281855919203) has been removed, or this item is not available.
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D.P.Johnson
11-19-2015, 01:02 PM
Good thread.
Thanks for starting it Peter.
ezez420
11-19-2015, 07:54 PM
Lets see if the seller ever puts on anything again or moves to another name.
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Lets see if the seller ever puts on anything again or moves to another name.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
They (bums) are usually fairly easy to trace. I don't know if the seller knew or not, what he had, but I suspect he was at least alerted.
rjackson44
11-22-2015, 02:52 PM
These are common scams that have been happening for years nothing new just scams.sucker born every day.thanks Peter