Check out these T213-2 "error cards".....Show & Tell us about your T213's

[tedzan]

Ed Summers' MLB career ended with Detroit in 1912.

Shown here is a 1914 COUPON (T213-2) card depicting Summers with the Brooklyn Tip Tops of the Federal League.

Definitely a No-No......Summers never pitched for this Brooklyn team.

However, Rudy Sommers was a pitcher for the Brooklyn Tip Tops in 1914. My guess is that American Lithographic mistook Summers for Sommers ? ?

What's your guess ?
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/SummersPieSovCou2x50xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910couponsummers.jpg
......................... 1910 ............................................ 1910 ............................................ 1914
. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SummersPieSovCou2x25b.jpg......................... ......http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910COUPONWillett29b.jpg




TED Z
.

[Leon]

Ted, your explanation on this one makes sense. I am surprised this issue hasn't been brought up before as there are a lot of T213 collectors.

[Sean]

Great catch Ted. We can always count on you for interesting notes about these cards. :)

[t213]

There are several other T213-2s with player/team combinations that never existed. I have a list somewhere, just not handy at the moment.

Andy

[tedzan]

There are several other T213-2s with player/team combinations that never existed. I have a list somewhere, just not handy at the moment.

Andy


This is very true.

I'm going to post and display a few more of these T213 cards with wrong players (or wrong teams) after I scan the cards.

When you find your list, please post it here.


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

One of the ones that I remember is the Bill Chappelle/Larry Chappell mix-up. Bill played for the 1914 Brooklyn Tip-Tops...Larry played for the 1916 Cleveland Indians. I'll see if I still have either one of these cards and post scans later if I do...I guess if they meant for the 1916 "No R" card to be Larry Chappell, then it was not an error...

[tedzan]

From 1909-1914, Germany Schaefer played with the Washington Senators. The 1915 season he played for Newark in the Federal League (not Kansas City,
as this 1914 COUPON card states).

In 1900, Schaefer played for the Kansas City Blues. Perhaps that has something to do as to why the mix-up occurred with his T213-2 card.


.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaeferlenoxcoupon50x.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaeferlenoxcoupon50xb.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaefersovuzitabompiedx50.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaefersovuzitabompiedx50b.jpg



TED Z
.

[z28jd]

I have 1/20th of a Schaefer T213

[tedzan]

I have 1/20th of a Schaefer T213


.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaeferlenoxcoupon50x.jpg


Cool card of Owen Wilson / Schaefer....thanks for displaying it.


TED Z
.

[ValKehl]

Hi Ted,
Thought you might like to see this 1915 issue that also incorrectly states the team that "Germany" played for:
Val

[nolemmings]

I've been intrigued by t213-2s for awhile now. Ted, another mistake like the one you mention is Tim Jordan, who played for Toronto in 1914 and part of 1915 but who never played for Fort Worth, yet his t213-2 can be found with either team listed. Seems there was also a Timothy Jordan who played for the Fort Worth Panthers in those years, about whom little is known. Don't know if they thought they had the right guy or just figured it was close enough.

Can anyone point me to research on how the t213-2s were distributed over the three years? Was the same group of 63 or so cards printed each year with just updated or changed team info and the occasional airbrush like Collins and Herzog? Is there any player in the set who is not captioned with his 1914 team but just a 1915 and/or 1916 team?

[RCMcKenzie]

Todd,

Interesting points. Harry Krause only has one T213-2 card and it is captioned "Omaha". Krause only played for Omaha for one year in 1916.

The other '1 card only' subjects seem to be from 1914. I'm about halfway through looking for the exceptions, so far Krause is the only post 1914 I've seen.
Also, the Dunn Baltimore has to be "Jack" Dunn, Baltimore's Manager in 1914 & 1916. Not Joe Dunn...

[tedzan]

I've been intrigued by t213-2s for awhile now. Ted, another mistake like the one you mention is Tim Jordan, who played for Toronto in 1914 and part of 1915 but who never played for Fort Worth, yet his t213-2 can be found with either team listed. Seems there was also a Timothy Jordan who played for the Fort Worth Panthers in those years, about whom little is known. Don't know if they thought they had the right guy or just figured it was close enough.

Can anyone point me to research on how the t213-2s were distributed over the three years? Was the same group of 63 or so cards printed each year with just updated or changed team info and the occasional airbrush like Collins and Herzog?

Is there any player in the set who is not captioned with his 1914 team but just a 1915 and/or 1916 team?


Todd

Nice research on Tim Jordan.


I am still in the process of researching these T213-2 guys. However, to answer your question......Sherry Magee (batting) is identified with Boston NL, which he played for in 1915-1917.

Furthermore, my Chase portrait with Chicago (shown here) is a 1914 issue. I have seen this same portrait of Chase with Buffalo, FL (1915 issue). And, the T213-2 Chase (Trophy) card
identifies him with Buffalo.



Timeline

............... 1910 .................................................. .............. 1914 .................................................. ............ 1919 ................................................ 1914-1915


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910CouponBlueChaseX50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T213x2x3blueChase50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/avictorychase.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910CouponBlueChase25b.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213x2x3blueChase50b.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bvictorychase.jpg



TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Ted. I'm trying to figure out whether cards were added and subtracted in 1915 and 1916, or were just the captions changed. It seems there were some changes--like the Krause that was mentioned. Magee though has a t213-2 card with the Phillies, his 1914 team, so he was around for all three years.

Then you get guys like Tom Needham, who last played in 1914 (and Billy Purtell--Detroit). Did he continue to get printed or was he replaced? And George Mullin, who has 1914 and 1915 Fed Lg. Cards and then was done. Since the Federal Lg itself did not make it to 1916, I assume his 1915 card was not reprinted in 1916, and as he had no other team identification, he was replaced. Same for Russ Ford and Buffalo.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Here's a pic of the Tim Jordan, Fort Worth and the Jack/Joe Dunn, Baltimore:

[tedzan]

Thanks Ted. I'm trying to figure out whether cards were added and subtracted in 1915 and 1916, or were just the captions changed. It seems there were some changes--like the Krause that was mentioned. Magee though has a t213-2 card with the Phillies, his 1914 team, so he was around for all three years.

Then you get guys like Tom Needham, who last played in 1914 (and Billy Purtell--Detroit). Did he continue to get printed or was he replaced? And George Mullin, who has 1914 and 1915 Fed Lg. Cards and then was done. Since the Federal Lg itself did not make it to 1916, I assume his 1915 card was not reprinted in 1916, and as he had no other team identification, he was replaced. Same for Russ Ford and Buffalo.


Todd

Here's one....Josh Devore's T213-2 card identifies him with Chillicothe (Ohio State League).

Devore retired from MLB at the end of the 1914 season. He became the playing/manager for Chillicothe in the 1915 season.

I do not think there is a 1914 card of him. But then, I may be proven wrong.



TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Ted, I'm afraid Devore has a 1914 card with the Phillies as well, so he was around at the beginning of t213-2. Interesting though, is why he wasn't included in 1916 for either of his teams that year, Topeka or Milwaukee. These cities had to be at least as important in the baseball world. Maybe Coupon wasn't aware if Mr. Devore's travels? Did they reprint Chillicothe or drop him in 1916?

Also, Devore left Philly for Boston in mid-1914 and yet shows for the Phillies, meaning the first run of T213-2s must have been done before his trade on 7/3/14. We could probably pin it down further if every player in the set has his movements reviewed.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's the other Jordan and the two Devore's...I agree that we could pin down the release dates for players that played only one year for a team, but for someone who played all 3 years for the same club, 1914-1916, I assume they re-issued the same card each year. I don't know of any rare cards that fit that type of card/player...I'm going to study on it some more as I'm working on T213-2 again where I left off...I'm about halfway through.

[nolemmings]

Keep 'em coming. It also looks like Gabby Street was added after the first year, since he appears for Nashville, where he played 1915-16, but does not show for Chattanooga, his 1914 team.

[tedzan]

I found my Chase portrait with Buffalo (FL)....my guess it's a 1915 issue. Also, the T213-2 card of Chase (Trophy) identifies him with Buffalo.



Timeline

............... 1910 .................................................. ................. 1914 .................................................. ........... 1919 .................................................. ......... 1915


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/1910CouponBlueChaseX50_zps8a9133fb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T213x2x3blueChase50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1914COUPONChaseBuffalo50x.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/1910CouponBlueChase25b_zps1ae25f3b.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213x2x3blueChase50b.jpg



TED Z
.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Jack Warhop, St. Louis Nationals. Never played for them. His whole Major League career was spent with the New York Highlanders/Yankees.

[mybuddyinc]

Very neat information. I figure the Quality Assurance in pieces of cardboard stuck in cigarette packs was probably not at it's highest level. Just get them and get them out !!!


I only own one Coupon, and, of course, it Camnitz, Savannah.

211790

Harry Camnitz pitched in Savannah in 1915, which makes sense for a Type 2 time frame. Although the corresponding T206 is always considered Howie.

Not that big a deal, but they can't both be right :rolleyes:

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Cool! I've never seen the Savannah version of Camnitz before.

[tedzan]

I only own one Coupon, and, of course, it Camnitz, Savannah.

Harry Camnitz pitched in Savannah in 1915, which makes sense for a Type 2 time frame. Although the corresponding T206 is always considered Howie.

Not that big a deal, but they can't both be right :rolleyes:



I tend to think your card depicts Howie. But, as you correctly stated, it was Harry that was pitching for Savannah in 1915 (after a very brief MLB career).

Anyhow, here is the other brother Camnitz portrayed with Pittsburg (Fed. Lge.).

I think American Lithographic had these guys mixed up ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213HarryCamnitzPittFed75x.jpg



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, those cards both look like the same guy to me. The other T206 Camnitz, with his arms folded, looks like Harry Camnitz. I think. :)

[mybuddyinc]

Agree, T206 wise, have always felt "above head" and "at side" were Howie (rounder, fuller face); "arms folded" was Harry (slender, angler).

From Baseball Reference:

Howie:

211838

Harry:

211839

Fun stuff :) Scott

[Pat R]

I agree with Sean and Scott.

[RCMcKenzie]

My guess is that instead of "errors" the set consists of cards that use generic images for current players like Buchner Gold Coin or e91 cards. The distributers were using images that were 5 years old and they were trying to include new cities and players to increase demand for the "new" cards of current players.

[tedzan]

Howie
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205T206Camnitz4cards37.jpg
Harry



Sorry guys, but I have to differ with you.

First, with only a profile image on the lower card, there's no way that anyone can compare it with photos of Howie or Harry. On the other hand, there is a close
resemblance in the facial features (nose, ears, lips, etc.) in the images of the three top cards.

Furthermore, the lower card's image shows a more youthful face. Harry was 3 years younger than Howie.

Finally (and the clincher to this argument)....Harry's brief MLB career did not start until Sept 29, 1909. This fact then negates any belief that the "arms folded"
pose image could possibly be Harry. American Lithographic started printing their 150 Series cards in the Spring/Summer of 1909. The "arms folded" pose was
most likely drawn from a 1908 (or earlier) photo of Howie. Therefore, it's my opinion that this pose is indeed Howie (whose MLB career started in April 1904).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

My guess is that instead of "errors" the set consists of cards that use generic images for current players like Buchner Gold Coin or e91 cards. The distributers were using images that were 5 years old and they were trying to include new cities and players to increase demand for the "new" cards of current players.


Wow ! ......your Street and Meyers are great looking cards.

The Meyers / Brooklyn is the first one that I've seen. This T213 is a tough 1916 card.
The 1914 (or 1915) New York NL version of Meyers is much more common.

Thanks for showing them to us.

Let's see some more of them.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.

PS- That is a great Street, Nashville card.

[Mountaineer1999]

Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.

PS- That is a great Street, Nashville card.

So there are two Camnitz's in the T206 set? I thought they were all Howie, had no idea of a Harry.

[buymycards]

Hi Rob, your PSA card of Wilson says "Type II", but with the black font, it must be a type one. There is only 1 Wilson card in the Type II set, and that card shows him with St Louis. Is your Wilson card a Type I?

Thanks,

Rick

[tedzan]

Ted, those cards both look like the same guy to me.

The other T206 Camnitz, with his arms folded, looks like Harry Camnitz. I think. :)

1st......
The above is your Post #25, where you stated you think the "arms folded" pose card of Camnitz looks like Harry. Then two other guys who followed your post agreed with you.

Well, in my opinion, all three of you are wrong regarding the Camnitz (arms folded) card as Harry.

But Sean....now, you are saying otherwise ?
I'm confused ? ?


In Post #29, I responded to you guys with a logical argument why the 150 Series Camnitz (arms folded) card cannot possibly be Harry. His MLB career started on Sept 29, 1909.
That date is approx. 6 months after American Litho printed and issued their initial 150 Series press runs which included this Camnitz card.


2nd......
Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.


Sean..... I don't think this picture is of Harry. The face looks like that of an older man. Yes, we all know that Harry pitched for Savannah in 1915, but I just chalk this up to another
one of American Litho's (ALC) mistakes in this T213 series. In my opinion this card is of Howie and ALC simply mis-captioned it.

Sean, good buddy, sorry to be so disagreeable here :)



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, my first post was confusing. My second is what I believe to be correct. I still think that the hands over head could show Harry.

The face looks older, but looks more like Harry, I think. And yes, American Litho seemed to think this is Harry, but that could be another of their mistakes. So I guess that I'm not sure.

Well, this has been fun, but I need to go to work now. Bye. :)

[tedzan]

Yes....it has been fun :)

Besides owning all these little tobacco cards, there's added pleasure derived from researching their subjects.


Take care, good buddy.


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted and Sean...Thanks on the Gabby Street...As y'all say its in nice shape for a T213-2...

Rick, Yes, you are right, it's a T213-1 and it's with my T213-1's in the T213-1 box. It was an old scan that I had made for another thread which I can't remember now. The PSA flip is incorrect...

The Frank Chance cards from this set are cool... Here's one of my favorite cards from the set. I'll make some more scans of T213-2 and post later in the week...Rob

[tedzan]

Really nice Frank Chance....Yankees Manager....I've got to get one.



Tommy Leach was printed on three T213's.... 1914 (Chicago NL )....1915 (Cinci)....1916 (Rochester).


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213LeachCinci50.jpg



TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Here are the other 2 Leach cards

[tedzan]

Here are the other 2 Leach cards


Thanks Rick

We hit the Tommy Leach "trifecta".


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hey you T206 collectors......

If you want a reasonably priced Demmitt (St Louis image), I recommend that you acquire his T213-2 card :)



http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/T213DemmittWSox50x_zps9bfaeab1.jpghttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/demmitt.jpg



TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Here's a 1914 Solly Hofman captioned the only year he played for the Tin Tops. He has a 1915 card from the set showing Peoria, but my guess, since Solly never played there, is that they meant to represent Izzy Hoffman, player-manager of the Peoria Distillers that one 1915 season.
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/prewar/t2132coupon/t2132coupon/huge/t213hofman.jpg

[Seiklis]

My two Clevelands

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=321&pictureid=19367http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=321&pictureid=19368
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=321&pictureid=14533http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=321&pictureid=14534

[Leon]

Here's a 1914 Solly Hofman captioned the only year he played for the Tin Tops. He has a 1915 card from the set showing Peoria, but my guess, since Solly never played there, is that they meant to represent Izzy Hoffman, player-manager of the Peoria Distillers that one 1915 season.
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/prewar/t2132coupon/t2132coupon/huge/t213hofman.jpg

Nice. Solly is high grade. We rarely see the type 2s (or 1) above a grade of vg-ex. I have always liked the captions in blue. (ie... Nadjas, D359, T215-2 etc....)

[tedzan]

......was one of the deadball era's biggest guys at 6' 5" tall and 230 lbs. He was a Catcher with Cinci. for 7 years. And, played for the NY Giants his last 3 years.

He would frequently get into bar-room brawls. His last one was in a Boston speakeasy in 1921. McLean attacked the bartender, who drew his gun and shot him.



http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/aT206xT213McLEAN.jpg.http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/T206xT213McLEAN.jpg



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

My favorite T213-2 card is this one of Mike Donlin, in which American Litho enhanced his card's caption..... " .300 batter 7 years ".

"Turkey Mike" was the Talk of the Town in New York city. He was indeed a "character", both on and off the field, and New Yorkers just loved him.
And, he was one of John McGraw's favorites.

Actually, Donlin batted over .300 in 10 years of his 12-year career......good for a .333 career BA. Plus, he had a career SLG avg. = .468 (equal
to Honus Wagner's career SLG avg.).

With a lifetime BA = .333, Mike Donlin would be in the HOF....if had he taken his BB career more seriously. Instead of vaudeville and the movies.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DonlinBatx50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DonlinBatx50b.jpg



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/adonlincoupsovrhp460sc42pb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DonlinCycle460x25.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bdonlincoupsovrhp460sc42pb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DonlinCycle460x25bx.jpg


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, Donlin is my favorite player from the T206 set. I always like drunken Irishmen. And I love the caption in the T213 set.

Why did they list his accomplishments instead of his team? Was it because he was retired, so he didn't have a team? And if so why include him in the set? Was he just that popular?

And also, Happy Thanksgiving. :)

[tedzan]

Hi Sean....and, a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

American Lithographic (ALC) most likely did not list Donlin's team because he was in transition (Phillies or Giants ? ?) at the time of this T213 card's printing.

It appears to me that ALC was very responsive to the popularity of both Mike Donlin and Hal Chase in the New York scene (circa 1909 - 1916). Because they
printed these guys on many of their white-bordered tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Ted, that Donlin .300 card is one of my favorites. I have bid on several of them over the years, but I have never been able to win one. I guess I am too cheap, but that is one card that I would love to add to my collection.

Rick

[Pat R]

Hi Sean....and, a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

American Lithographic (ALC) most likely did not list Donlin's team because he was in transition (Phillies or Giants ? ?) at the time of this T213 card's printing.

It appears to me that ALC was very responsive to the popularity of both Mike Donlin and Hal Chase in the New York scene (circa 1909 - 1916). Because they
printed these guys on many of their white-bordered tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

Ted... I thought Donlin was claimed on waivers by Philadelphia from Pittsburgh
in late 1912 and he announced his retirement but made a comeback attempt
in the minors in the summer of 1913 and then played with NY in 1914.

[tedzan]

Sean's original question was......
" Why did they list his accomplishments instead of his team? Was it because he was retired, so he didn't have a team? And if so why include him in the set? Was he just that popular ? "


I responded that Donlin (and Chase) were very popular ballplayers (on and off the field) in the New York scene in the early part of the 20th Century.

Now, if this T213 card of Donlin was printed in the first press run in 1914, then his team affiliation is not certain. So, perhaps this explains why ALC printed...... " .300 batter 7 years "
....in his caption.

In the 1913 postseason, John McGraw selected Donlin to go on a barnstorming tour abroad. McGraw was impressed with Donlin's performance on this tour, so he gave Donlin a chance
to play for the 1914 season. Donlin played only partime in 35 games, and retired Oct 1, 1914.

Therefore, perhaps if this T213 card of Donlin was printed during press runs in mid 1914 (or 1915), it would have had...." N. Y. Nat. ".... in it's caption.


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

I believe it most likely that Donlin NY was issued first, in 1914, and the batting record card issued in 1915. It appears to me that Coupon issued only one printing per year for each of the three years. I also believe the first printing was before mid-July of 1914. Donlin had played for the Giants throughout 1914, just not very often or very well. He would have been on the roster in April and thus known to the set's printer.

It is possible both cards were issued at the same time in 1914, although why the one would lack a team designation seems strange. Then again,why get it so wrong on the number of times he hit .300? By the end of 1914, Donlin was coming off a poor season where all he had done was pinch hit, was 36 years old, got married, and was getting back into the performing arts. His baseball career was shot. The .300 batting record card seems most likely to me some sort of tribute card than one expecting him to play in 1915 for some yet unknown team.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are my two T213-2 Donlins. The ".300 hitter" variation seems to come up for sale more often than the "NY" card.
This .300 hitter card has the player and team caption from the above card on the sheet, if y'all can identify the name and team it would help us know when the .300 Hitter card was issued...Hummel, Brooklyn??...Marquard, Brooklyn??..What are your guesses?

[tedzan]

I agree with your guesses....it appears to be either John Hummel or Rube Marquard. The Team is definitely Brooklyn Nat.

If it's Hummel, then my guess is 1914.

If it's Marquard, then 1915 (or 1916).


Thanks for showing us these two Donlin cards. And, you're correct....the NY Nat. version is seldom seen.

Your ".300" version is especially neat in that it tells us when it was printed. As I have stated in post #51 here, my theory suggests a 1914 print date.


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

I can't tell who the card is above Donlin--whether Hummell or Rucker. I do not believe Marquard is found with a Brooklyn Nat. designation--just Brooklyn only.

The Donlin .300 card you show is from either 1914 or 1915. I will stick to my earlier comment that it is more likely 1915. Your Donlin is not from 1916 because of the Brooklyn Nat card above it--I believe in 1916 the Brooklyn only caption was used, since the Fed Lg was kaput and there was no longer any need to distinguish Brooklyn ballclubs (which also explains Marquard, who didn't play for Brooklyn until late 1915).

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are some more pics of the captions. It looks like the caption at the top of the T213-2 Donlin .300 batter card is " Rucker, Brooklyn Nat."... if so, then I guess the Donlin .300 hitter card was issued in 1914 and/or 1915, that's why there are more of them around than the Donlin NY cards...

[tedzan]

After having given this a lot more thought, Rucker makes more sense to me....just as you guys are saying.

Donlin and Rucker were in the 350/460 series press runs of the T206 issue. Therefore, they were printed on the same sheet.
Hummel & Marquard were printed on 460-only series sheets; therefore, the card above the Donlin (.300) could not be them.

T213 cards were produced from the same printing plates used for the fronts of the T206 series. The T213-2 set comprises of
114 different subjects from the following three series of the T206 production......

Subjects....Series

46 ........ 350-only
40 ........ 350/460
28 ........ 460-only
----
114

And, of course the TEAM variations of certain subjects increases the total number of cards for a complete set to 188 (or so).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Although Mike Donlin played his last MLB game on Oct 1, 1914, American Litho (ALC) included him in their 1919 T213-3 issue.

His T213-3 card's caption simply reads Mike Donlin.


Perhaps, Mike's popularity (especially in the New York area) may explain why ALC chose to continue printing his image 5 years
after his retirement. Or, perhaps because he was still involved in Minor League BB, he might return to playing in the Majors.

In 1916, he managed a semi-pro team in NJ.

In 1917, he managed the Memphis team in the Southern League.

Also that year, the War Department chose Mike to teach BB to U.S. soldiers in France.

And in 1918, he was in California as a BB scout for the Boston Braves.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hey guys

I acquired this St Louis image of Demmitt quite a few years ago.

I have seen several of them since then. But, I've never seen the
T213-2 New York image of Demmitt.

It must be a tough card ? If you have one, please show it.



http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/T213DemmittWSox50x_zps9bfaeab1.jpg



Thanks,

TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Hi Ted,

I don't own a Demmitt NY, but believe it is considerably scarcer than the StL version. As for the latter, maybe you and the T206 guys can provide some guidance here. Does the presence of Demmitt Stl suggest that the folks at Coupon got the majority of their supply from the same printer used by Polar Bear? How many of the T213-2 subjects are NOT found in T206 Polar Bear?

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

I don't own a Demmitt NY, but believe it is considerably scarcer than the StL version. As for the latter, maybe you and the T206 guys can provide some guidance here. Does the presence of Demmitt Stl suggest that the folks at Coupon got the majority of their supply from the same printer used by Polar Bear? How many of the T213-2 subjects are NOT found in T206 Polar Bear?


Of the 114 different subjects in the T213-2 set, 20 of them were not printed with the POLAR BEAR (PB) backs in the T206 set.

All 68 subjects in the T213-2 set that are from the 350/460 and 460-only series in the T206 set were printed with the PB back.
Twenty-six of the 46 subjects in the T213-2 set (that represent the 350-only series of the T206 set) were printed with PB.

American Lithographic in NYC was the same printer for the T206 set (with all it's approx. 5200 front/back permutations), and
the T213 cards (all 3 sets), T214, T215 (both sets).


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, I have seen a T213-2 Demmit w/ NY on jersey in a Heritage auction a few years ago. I believe it was in a large lot of cards...Here's my STL one... My understanding is that the T213-2 set is actually complete at 185 cards, as 3 are not known from the early checklists...I used to know which 3, but I have forgotten which ones they are....Rob

[DixieBaseball]

Type 2 Gabby's :

[tedzan]

Ted, I have seen a T213-2 Demmit w/ NY on jersey in a Heritage auction a few years ago. I believe it was in a large lot of cards...Here's my STL one... My understanding is that the T213-2 set is actually complete at 185 cards, as 3 are not known from the early checklists...I used to know which 3, but I have forgotten which ones they are....Rob

Rob

I have never seen Downey, or one of the Sweeney's (Bill or Jeff). And, I have not seen Schlei (batting). They may exist....can anyone here confirm these ?

Also, the Catalog does not list Tinker (bat on shoulder) and I have seen this card as a T213-2.

So, I sort of agree with you that Catolog's listing of 188 cards is not accurate.



Jeremy

Thanks for posting two T213's that we have not seen yet in this thread. Your Gabby portrait is a really great looking T213-2.



Hey guys
Let's keep on posting these COUPON cards.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[edjs]

I can't really talk Coupon's the way you all can, but In will tell you that when I bought the Bridwell, it was listed as a type 2, and no back was shown (and I paid a type 2 price). What a pleasant surprise when it showed up with a type 3 back!

Ted, is this one of the Sweeney's you just mentioned never seeing?

[buymycards]

Here are 2 of the 4 Sweeney's. Bill is the Boston card and Jeff is NY.

The information below comes from Andy, who posted this in a thread a couple of years ago. I would like to thank Andy for sharing this info, and I hope Andy doesn't mind me passing this along.

The 3 missing cards are Magee, Phila Nat, McQuillan, Phil Nat, and Reulbach, Brooklyn Fed.

[tedzan]

That resolves the Sweeneys' question in my mind....I appreciate this.

Furthermore, I have seen the Schlei (portrait); but, not the Schlei (batting).
And, I have not seen the Downey (batting, or is it the fielding pose).

Do you know if these two T213-2 cards exist ?

Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are a few more scans. I have 3/4 Tinkers...still need Bat-On Chicago Nat (was underbidder on one about 6 months ago)...

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

A few more:

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

one more:

[tedzan]

You guys are the greatest. A really nice array on display of T213-2 cards.

So, now one "mystery" remains in my mind......I'd like to see the Tom Downey card (with Buffalo Fed.).
Most important to me is whether his pose is the Batting or Fielding version.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Ted, Here's my Downey (one of the few I have):
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/prewar/t2132coupon/t2132coupon/huge/14t213downey.jpg

I believe I've tracked down the 20 t213-2 subjects that do not correlate to Polar Bear. Interestingly,my initial check shows that all 20 were also part of the T213-1 set issued years earlier, except one--Eddie Collins. Lew Lipset and others have speculated whether t213-1 still has a couple of undiscovered subjects, to round out the set at 70 from its current known 68. Could Collins be one of the unknown t213-1s?

[kdixon]

Here are a couple of Wheat T213-2 and a T213-3

[tedzan]

Ted, Here's my Downey (one of the few I have):
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/prewar/t2132coupon/t2132coupon/huge/14t213downey.jpg

I believe I've tracked down the 20 t213-2 subjects that do not correlate to Polar Bear. Interestingly,my initial check shows that all 20 were also part of the T213-1 set issued years earlier, except one--Eddie Collins. Lew Lipset and others have speculated whether t213-1 still has a couple of undiscovered subjects, to round out the set at 70 from its current known 68. Could Collins be one of the unknown t213-1s?


Thanks Todd for displaying your Downey card. It's a great looking card.

I posted a thread in 2010, titled "1910 Coupon vs POLAR BEAR cards" in which I examined the apparent correlation (or lack of it) between these two backs........
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126497&highlight=1910+coupon+vs+polar+bear

The 1910 COUPON set consists of 48 - MLB subjects from the 350-only series of the T206 set; and, the 20 Southern Association subjects in the T206 set. T213-1
set is complete with 68 cards. There are no expectations of any other subjects that are missing from it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here are a couple of Wheat T213-2 and a T213-3

Kenny

Thanks for posting your Zach Wheat cards....great stuff.

Find the T213-3, Factory #3 and you'll have covered all the COUPON bases with Zach.


TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Hi Ted, I haven't seen the Schlei batting, but "rmasson" lists the batting version and the portrait version, both SGC40's in his SGC registry set. He doesn't show any scans for his set.

Rick

[buymycards]

One of my favorite things to do is to try to collect all of the cards of the same player from this set. Some are fairly easy, such as the 3 Mowrey cards. Others can be tough, such as the 6 Wiltse cards.

[tedzan]

The intent of this analysis is to provide an understanding of how American Lithographic produced the T213-2 set
by combining pre-printed sheets from these 3 series of the T206 production.

350-only Series ............ 44 subjects

Barger
Bender (trees)
Bresnahan (bat)
Byrne
Campbell
Chappelle
Eddie Collins (A's)
Cree
Demmitt (New York)
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (bat)
Dubuc
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Evans
Fromme
Groom
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hand at mouth)
Kelley
Knabe
Krause (portrait)
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell
Mowrey
Myers (fielding)
Oakes
Paskert
Purtell
Quinn
Rudolph
Schmidt
Speaker
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney (Boston)
Thomas
Warhop
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 Series ............ 42 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Demmitt (St Louis)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Leach (cap)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Frank Smith
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series ............ 29 subjects

Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms over head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Hummell
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Pictured here are the Major Leaguer's (48) in the T213-1 set. American Lithographic included 29 subjects from their T213-1 issue in the T213-2 set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/2ndQuad350seriesSheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/3rdQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/4thQuad350serieSheet12xx.jpg


Bender (trees)
Byrne
Campbell
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mitchell
Mowery
Myers (fielding)
Paskert
Schmidt (portrait)
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney
Thomas
Willett
Wilson


Hey guys....let's see some more T213-2 cards. Incidentally, I've never seen the Frank Smith....if you have one please post it.


Thanks,


TED Z
.

[DixieBaseball]

Pictured here are the Major Leaguer's (48) in the T213-1 set. American Lithographic included 29 subjects from their T213-1 issue in the T213-2 set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/2ndQuad350seriesSheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/3rdQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/4thQuad350serieSheet12xx.jpg


Bender (trees)
Byrne
Campbell
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mitchell
Mowery
Myers (fielding)
Paskert
Schmidt (portrait)
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney
Thomas
Willett
Wilson


Hey guys....let's see some more T213-2 cards. Incidentally, I've never seen the Frank Smith....if you have one please post it.


Thanks,


TED Z
.

Ted - Thanks for this visual of all 48 ML Type 1's.... A different perspective and angle. It would be grand to run across a sheet of Type 1 Coupons in pristine condition similar to the array of poses you show above.

[tedzan]

Ted - Thanks for this visual of all 48 ML Type 1's.... A different perspective and angle. It would be grand to run across a sheet of Type 1 Coupons in pristine condition similar to the array of poses you show above.


Thanks....and yes, it would be nicer if it was a real 1910 COUPON sheet :)

Actually, I would settle for just a T206 PIEDMONT sheet of these 48 cards.

In any event, this 48-card arrangement is my concept of what a 350-Series T206 sheet may have looked like.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

How's about one more round displaying some of your T213 cards before this thread disappears to....never-neverland.

P.S......I have yet to see a T213-2 card of Frank Smith. Anyone out there in Net54-land have one to show us ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

It's in poor condition, but here's my Smith:

[Sean]

Nice one Adam. :cool:

[DeanH3]

My two. I've posted these two so many times I hesitate to do so again, but figured I'd contribute.

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/DeanH4/pre-war/11700/1910-t213-1-coupon-christy-mathewsonhttp://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/DeanH4/card-backs/11713/1910-t213-1-coupon-christy-mathewson

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/DeanH4/pre-war/11701/1914-t213-2-coupon-walter-johnsonhttp://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/DeanH4/card-backs/11714/1914-t213-2-coupon-walter-johnson

[Pat R]

My only T213. Personally I think the only relationship in the printing of these
and T206's was the use of the same images.

[atx840]

My two. I've posted these two so many times I hesitate to do so again, but figured I'd contribute.


Beauties! Shown many times.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3777/10860337745_e2da2f9c46_b.jpg

[tedzan]

Thanks for posting your Frank Smith.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Beauties! Shown many times.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3777/10860337745_e2da2f9c46_b.jpg


I never get tired of seeing these 5 "oldies but goodies".

Call me when the "novelty" of the Factory #8 card wears off :)


Take care, good buddy


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Here's one of Rube Geyer, who likely was issued only in 1914. Strange in that he was supposedly going to pitch for the Pittsburgh Feds as of a report in early February, 1914, and ultimately pitched in Oakland, not St. Louis that year. One might think the set would have him in one of those two cities, but his previous team from 1913 is featured.
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/prewar/t2132coupon/t2132coupon/large/img812.jpg

[tedzan]

Common to the T206, T213-1, T213-2, and T213-3 sets are the Six Super Print subjects....shown here with their seldom seen 1910 COUPON (T213-1) advertisements.
These 6 subjects were initially printed in the 350 Series of the T206 press runs in the Spring of 1910.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910couponcobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910COUPONredCobb75xb.jpg



http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/1910CouponChance_zpsab007d4f.jpg..http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/1910CouponChanceBx_zps4fc0101d.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1910couponmattyeverschase.jpg
....http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1910couponmattyeverschase25xb.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1910COUPONchasedkcap38x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910COUPONdkcapChase50b.jpg



TED Z
.

[Sean]

How's about one more round displaying some of your T213 cards before this thread disappears to....never-neverland.

P.S......I have yet to see a T213-2 card of Frank Smith. Anyone out there in Net54-land have one to show us ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Okay Ted, here's a couple:

214186

214187

214188 214189

[Sean]

214190

214191

And here is one more. Does anyone know if this card comes with a Factory 8 overprint? I didn't see it on Rob's list.

[ValKehl]

I have showed this T213-3 before, but it's still my favorite:

[Sean]

Here's my only Type-1:


214294 214295

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Here's a few more T213-2, Schulte, Stovall, Wagner, Warhop (New York Amer.):

[tedzan]

Great cards, guys. Thanks for sharing them with us.


Val......I love your Walter Johnson, it's one of the nicest T213-3 HOFers that I have seen.


TED Z
.

[ValKehl]

Thanks Ted - your T213-1 of Matty isn't too shabby either!! ;)
Best,
Val