REAs " Honest Auto Bid (TM) "

[Stonepony]

In REAs catalog they make the following statement...
"Bidders in many auctions are under the false impression that the privacy of their bids is secure. With the exception of EBay and Robert Edwards Auctions, ALL AUCTION HOUSES CAN SEE EACH AND EVERY MAXIMUM BID THAT BIDDERS PLACE. The auction houses have never claimed otherwise. In the absence of utilizing the Honest Auto Bid style , THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO NOT HAVE ACCESS to the maximum bids when they are placed"

This is a strong statement. I was under the impression auction houses had the ability to adjust the software so max bids could not be seen.
There are many owners of auction houses on this forum. I invite their comments.

[gnaz01]

In REAs catalog they make the following statement...
"Bidders in many auctions are under the false impression that the privacy of their bids is secure. With the exception of EBay and Robert Edwards Auctions, ALL AUCTION HOUSES CAN SEE EACH AND EVERY MAXIMUM BID THAT BIDDERS PLACE. The auction houses have never claimed otherwise. In the absence of utilizing the Honest Auto Bid style , THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO NOT HAVE ACCESS to the maximum bids when they are placed"

This is a strong statement. I was under the impression auction houses had the ability to adjust the software so max bids could not be seen.
There are many owners of auction houses on this forum. I invite their comments.

I've won several items from REA for several bids under my MAX. I trust them!

[rainier2004]

I believe that to be false.

BST introduced a new secure bidding system as well and they cannot see max bids, not sure about any others though.

True Bid - BST Auctions uses a new software overlay called True Bid, which will ensure that max bids placed will be known to the bidder alone

http://www.bst-auctions.com/default.aspx#

[Stonepony]

I've won several items from REA for several bids under my MAX. I trust them!

My point Greg, is that REA is stating that all other auction houses can see max bids and " there is NO WAY for them NOT to have access to the maximum bids"

[gnaz01]

My point Greg, is that REA is stating that all other auction houses can see max bids and " there is NO WAY for them NOT to have access to the maximum bids"

Understood, I was just saying that IF they have access to it, and used it, they didn't.

[asphaltman]

I always assume my max bids can be seen. Only use them at this point when I just can't stay up that late...and I have to come with terms if I'm going to get the item it may well be at my max bid.

Honestly the only auction houses I ever thought it was screwy because it seems like EVERY time I won for my max bids were with Mastro and Legendary. Surprise. With REA i've had my max bids hit, and at other times got lucky...maybe a 50/50 split or so.

Assume everyone can see your bids.... :)

[kengoldin]

It is an antiquated statement that has been in REA rules for years.
Prior to going online with our first auction I instructed Bob Freedman of Simple Auction Site that neither I or the staff should have access to max bids.

This comment is in our rules
"Bid with confidence. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. "

We use the same software provider as BST and others who instruct simple auction site to turn off ability to see maximum bids can do the same
I believe Leon has his site set up the same way.
Ken Goldin
Goldin Auctions

[andybecker]

It is an antiquated statement that has been in REA rules for years.
Prior to going online with our first auction I instructed Bob Freedman of Simple Auction Site that neither I or the staff should have access to max bids.

This comment is in our rules
"Bid with confidence. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. "

We use the same system as BST and others who instruct simple auction site to turn off ability to see maximum bids.
I believe Leon has his site set up the same way.
Ken Goldin
Goldin Auctions

this is not exactly true. we do use Simple Auctions, Bob Freedman's group.

we paid Bob to have True Bid overlaid on his software. True Bid takes the "switch" that Ken refers to out of the equation.

we do not have the ability to see bids, passwords, watch lists, etc.

that was very important to us.

Andy Becker
BST Auctions

[bobfreedman]

It is an antiquated statement that has been in REA rules for years.
Prior to going online with our first auction I instructed Bob Freedman of Simple Auction Site that neither I or the staff should have access to max bids.

This comment is in our rules
"Bid with confidence. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. "

We use the same system as BST and others who instruct simple auction site to turn off ability to see maximum bids.
I believe Leon has his site set up the same way.
Ken Goldin
Goldin Auctions

Ken is 100% correct. He asked from day one to never see anyone's max bids, passwords, email addresses etc.. In fact, every auction house cannot and has not seen any of their max bids for the last 5 or 6 years. BST actually came up with a name for it but all of our customers cannot see their max bids.

Only the two owners of the company (myself included) can turn this feature on or off. No one to date has ever asked us to temporarily or permanently turn this feature off.

Bob Freedman

[kengoldin]

Andy
We do not have ability to see passwords either
It causes a big problem when people cannot log on and call the office or email
Perhaps you asked bob for something unique to you that was extremely similar to what we had in place
In any event, I will edit my post so you do not feel offended as that was not the intent.
Point being that anyone using simple auction software has the ability to reject ability to see max bids

[andybecker]

Ken,
no need to edit, as you had no reason to know what we paid Bob to do.

and sorry if I came off as defensive, I wasn't offended in the slightest, again just clarifying what we paid Bob for.

[Robert_Lifson]

Ken is correct that this has been in our catalog verbiage for years - since 2004 when we conceived of and paid for the software security modifications that define Honest Auto Bid. If the Simple Auctions has now added the capability to totally eliminate access to passwords also, then this is great improvement, and does make this verbiage in the REA catalog regarding security outdated (and in that case will be updated in the future).


Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[kengoldin]

Thanks Rob. Nice post.

Ken is correct that this has been in our catalog verbiage for years - since 2004 when we conceived of and paid for the software security modifications that define Honest Auto Bid. If the Simple Auctions has now added the capability to totally eliminate access to passwords also, then this is great improvement, and does make this verbiage in the REA catalog regarding security outdated (and in that case will be updated in the future).


Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[bobfreedman]

Ken is correct that this has been in our catalog verbiage for years - since 2004 when we conceived of and paid for the software security modifications that define Honest Auto Bid. If the Simple Auctions has now added the capability to totally eliminate access to passwords also, then this is great improvement, and does make this verbiage in the REA catalog regarding security outdated (and in that case will be updated in the future).


Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

It was added about 5 years ago

[Robert_Lifson]

Bob, that is great and a very impressive improvement. We have spoken many times during the past five years and you have never mentioned this to me. Just for clarity, is it accurate that all auctions using the Simple Auctions software cannot access passwords? (and thus cannot access maximum bids, even if they have chosen not to have maximum bids displayed in the administration system). Or is this just an option that is used by some? I understand from Ken and Andy’s posts that they utilize this security feature, and my hat is off to them, and to you also for providing the capability. Do all other auctions using Simple Auctions also have no access to passwords? (Goodwin, Sterling Auctions, Al Anderson political auctions, Oldpoliticals.com etc) or is this a security option that is used only by some? How many have no access to passwords vs do not have access? Whatever the answer, I appreciate that the option is there. It's a big deal in my opinion.

Sincerely,


Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[bobfreedman]

Rob, while I could list everyone who does and who doesn't, it is up to each auction house to advertise their rules and procedures. I can tell you that a vast majority of auction houses that utilize our software employ this feature (not being able to see max bids). I am sure you would not want me speaking on your behalf on this board.

Respectfully,
Bob

P.S. Ken emailed me privately and asked me to address this

[Robert_Lifson]

Rob, while I could list everyone who does and who doesn't, it is up to each auction house to advertise their rules and procedures. I can tell you that a vast majority of all auction house that utilize our software employ this feature (not being able to see max bids). I am sure you would not want me speaking on your behalf on this board.

Respectfully,
Bob

P.S. Ken emailed me privately and asked me to address this



Bob, while you cannot speak for REA as our software service provider/host, because we do not currently use the Simple Auctions platform, we would actually be very happy to have our software/service provider (Create Auction) speak for REA or answer any questions regarding max bid and password security at any time.

I am extremely confused by the wording of your response as there are TWO essential elements to max bid security: that the auction administration software does not display the max bids, AND that the auction house cannot access bidder passwords. I am not sure if you are referring to one or both.

You have said that the vast majority of all auction houses that use the Simple Auction platform employ the feature of “not being able to see max bids.” But it is not clear if you are referring just to the display of max bids in the auction house administration page, or BOTH the administration display and the access to bidder passwords. Because if the auction house has access to bidder passwords, then they ALSO have access to all maximum bids if desired. They are only a couple of clicks away.

When I recently participated in an auction that uses the Simple Auctions platform, and I had misplaced my password, the auction representative (who I happened to be speaking with on the phone when I realized I forgot my password and I happened to mention this in passing) was able, in just a few seconds, to tell me my password. This was very recent. And this was not the first time an auction house hosted by Simple Auctions has made me aware with certainty they had my password (and this was well within the past five years).

So to make sure I understand: Are you saying that most of the auction houses using the Simple Auctions platform do not display the max bids in the administration system AND do not have access to passwords? Or are you just saying that most of the auction houses using the Simple Auctions platform do not display the max bids in the administration system, but many of these same auction houses actually do have access to bidder passwords? (and hence still have access to max bids if desired).

By the way, I am not suggesting that any given auction that has access to max bids is misusing this access. And even if Ken and Andy were the only Simple Auction-hosted auctions that utilized both features (that together and only together provide security of max bids), that would still be a big deal and huge step in the right direction in my opinion. But there is such a big difference between 1) a system where accessing max bids by the auction house is impossible, and 2) a system where an impression that this is the case could be misinterpreted, and the max bids can actually be accessed by the auction house at will if desired. So I am taking the time to ask for clarity regarding this if it is possible to provide.

Sincerely,


Rob L


Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[Kevin.Shenker]

I would say the wording is pretty iffy, and seems like it is a carefully crafted response. Maybe I am reading into it to much, who knows.

You said you made the feature, but it is up to them to use it, but it has been that way for years, but you don't say every single company using your software has been told or forced to upgrade to the standard. It sounds like you are washing your hands of the responsibility by saying it is there, but up to them or not up to them.

REA's question is pretty direct. I for one, am interested in hearing the response, as it seems most auction houses use the software.

[atx840]

Bob, do AHs who use your software have access to the database(s) for their auctions?

[slipk1068]

Can someone give me a legitimate reason why it would be useful for an AH to see max bids and why any software developer would offer this feature in auction software?

[rainier2004]

Can someone give me a legitimate reason why it would be useful for an AH to see max bids and why any software developer would offer this feature in auction software?

There are no legitimate reasons to see a max bid...none. This is part of the reason I feel as strongly as I do about BST. When they advertised initially they touched on this and I felt it was glossed over by the community as a whole, but I feel this is very important and says something about the owners of BST, Becker, Spano and Terjung. Integrity lacks in our hobby and this was a step in the right direction before they even got their business off the ground. According to their site, True-bid was an overlay to the previous software. Id be curious to hear from one of the owners what all this entailed, but I felt it became the gold standard in our hobby. My thought was "why would BST add an addition layer of protection, for us the buyers" and in the end it all comes down to integrity.

The second part of questions, I believe, is that its not up to the developer to make the decisions about the "switches". I heard rumors in the hobby for years about passwords and max bids...obviously. I always thought the developer had their own job and is essentially working for the AH at that point. I'm wondering who first requested to use it, I'd also love to see a list of AHs that can see my password...I know BST cannot.

I'd love to hear more about the "true bid overlay" and think this is the direction that AHs need to go, transparency and integrity will get my business.

Protect your joy-

S Suckow

[bobfreedman]

Bob, while you cannot speak for REA as our software service provider/host, because we do not currently use the Simple Auctions platform, we would actually be very happy to have our software/service provider (Create Auction) speak for REA or answer any questions regarding max bid and password security at any time.

I am extremely confused by the wording of your response as there are TWO essential elements to max bid security: that the auction administration software does not display the max bids, AND that the auction house cannot access bidder passwords. I am not sure if you are referring to one or both.

You have said that the vast majority of all auction houses that use the Simple Auction platform employ the feature of “not being able to see max bids.” But it is not clear if you are referring just to the display of max bids in the auction house administration page, or BOTH the administration display and the access to bidder passwords. Because if the auction house has access to bidder passwords, then they ALSO have access to all maximum bids if desired. They are only a couple of clicks away.

When I recently participated in an auction that uses the Simple Auctions platform, and I had misplaced my password, the auction representative (who I happened to be speaking with on the phone when I realized I forgot my password and I happened to mention this in passing) was able, in just a few seconds, to tell me my password. This was very recent. And this was not the first time an auction house hosted by Simple Auctions has made me aware with certainty they had my password (and this was well within the past five years).

So to make sure I understand: Are you saying that most of the auction houses using the Simple Auctions platform do not display the max bids in the administration system AND do not have access to passwords? Or are you just saying that most of the auction houses using the Simple Auctions platform do not display the max bids in the administration system, but many of these same auction houses actually do have access to bidder passwords? (and hence still have access to max bids if desired).

By the way, I am not suggesting that any given auction that has access to max bids is misusing this access. And even if Ken and Andy were the only Simple Auction-hosted auctions that utilized both features (that together and only together provide security of max bids), that would still be a big deal and huge step in the right direction in my opinion. But there is such a big difference between 1) a system where accessing max bids by the auction house is impossible, and 2) a system where an impression that this is the case could be misinterpreted, and the max bids can actually be accessed by the auction house at will if desired. So I am taking the time to ask for clarity regarding this if it is possible to provide.

Sincerely,


Rob L


Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, NJ 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

Rob, if a specific AH asks me to speak for them, I will, as I did with Goldin and my original point was that I am sure you would not want Seth (CreateAuction) to speak for you on your behalf without your knowledge nor permission.

When I stated that they "cannot see max bids", I am including that they cannot see Passwords, email addresses etc... We realize that not seeing the max bid is only half of the equation.

Auction Houses also do not have access to their database.

BST's "overlay" (True Bid)is a name that they came up with for a feature that we did not brand nor market ourselves. They chose to advertise the fact that they cannot see the max bids (and not see PW's etc....) while other AH's chose not to but they do indeed have employed this feature.

[sb1]

For the record, B & L uses Simple Auctions as our host and we do not have the ability to see passwords, watchlist's nor max bids. It does make it a bit inconvenient when people can't remember their password, that would be the only inconvenience to the AH.

That being said, I believe prospective bidders should have a basic trust in the people they choose to do business with. I wholeheartedly think there are very few auctions that frequent this site and/or advertise here that would act in an inappropriate manner, even IF they could see the information. Just because you might be able to see or do something, is a large step from acting nefariously with it.

Scott

[rainier2004]

BST's "overlay" (True Bid)is a name that they came up with for a feature that we did not brand nor market ourselves. They chose to advertise the fact that they cannot see the max bids (and not see PW's etc....) while other AH's chose not to but they do indeed have employed this feature.

Bob - So I am confused a little here. Is the true-bid overlay just BST's term they used to describe what you always do or did they brand and market something new? Is true-bid any additional level of protection to the buyer (no pws, no max bids seen) or is it just the same software and they renamed it? I have yet to see anyone else use true-bid, is that something just for BST or is this something you offer to everyone else? Can I ask how many AHs use your software?

Andy Becker is claiming in post #8 they paid for this overlay...what did they pay for? If its just a switch they named and marketed, what did they pay for? I was under the impression they went an extra mile, an extra mile our hobby needs...back to transparency and integrity. Is it simply the "switch" is gone? IMO that switch shouldn't be an option...that's kinda like taking in a cheat sheet for a test just in case I want to use it...maybe I'm starting to split hairs here, but I feel this is an extremely important issue. AHs should set the standards of the hobby, I don't think that has been the case in past years though...

[Kevin.Shenker]

The answer is still convoluted. Why use "etc" anything in your answer, right at the critical part where you are addressing the question?

I think the answer is, there are still some auction houses that can, and he is not willing to mention which ones still do.

It is simple. Do some auction houses, without naming specific auction houses, not use the new feature you made? Yes or no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

In post 16 Bob said the "vast majority" of AH's using Simple Site employ the feature we have been discussing, so by negative implication at least some don't, is how I read that.

[Kevin.Shenker]

In post 16 Bob said the "vast majority" of AH's using Simple Site employ the feature we have been discussing, so by negative implication at least some don't, is how I read that.

I agree. That is my interpretation as well, but he isn't coming out and saying that directly. If that is the case, own it and just say it without skirting around the issue at hand.

[swarmee]

He is alluding to the fact that some auctionhouses have it in their auction rules that they are allowed to bid on their own items up to some "hidden reserve." This board has exposed those sites in previous threads. So those are your likely culprits when it comes to those who have access to the max bids on their sites.
There is no reason he should speak for all his clients without their permission on this site.

[Kevin.Shenker]

Why allude?

I am relatively new here, can someone point me at the conversation about this or iterate which sites fit into that category?

Also, is that the auction house bidding on items they own which are in the auction, or auction house customers bidding on their own items?

[swarmee]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=206854&highlight=shill+bidding

Page 4 has these links:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1431320184/last-1431956350/is+it+true+people+can+bid+on+their+own+lots+in+her itage-

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/rules.aspx

As he is a business partner of many sites (some of which can't see your bids and some of which can), I completely understand his reasoning not to inform on his customers.

[autograf]

Someone could have all the bids/passwords/etc NOT available to them and still have rules to bid up to a certain preset limit. Those could be mutually exclusive. If someone sets a reserve on a lot and the AH can bid up to that point, it could be done either with or without the ability to view max bids and passwords.

I think Scott (Brockelman) hit the nail on the head for the most part and that's feeling comfortable with who you are bidding with. Whether it's the honest auto-bid or whatever you want to call the software, it does help build that comfortability though as I'm sure there were a lot of people comfortable with bidding with Mastronet, et al during 'the day'...........

[Griffins]

I just got off the phone with Al Crisafulli of Love of the Game Auctions. He is travelling thru the southwest and unable to get to this thread until tonite, but he asked me to post on his behalf that "LOTG unequivocally cannot see bids nor passwords" and cannot access the settings that would allow that.

[Stonepony]

This has all settled out how I thought it would. I'm just surprised AHs didn't stand up and challenge REAs claim, which apparently has been out there for years.
However, if AH do not have the capability to see watch lists, max bids and passwords... then what is BSTs "True Bid"?

[Kevin.Shenker]

Aha, I got it now. Short of reading everything from top to bottom, I am able to see only 2 names:

Legendary Auctions
Heritage Auctions

Am I missing any?

[Kevin.Shenker]

I just got off the phone with Al Crisafulli of Love of the Game Auctions. He is travelling thru the southwest and unable to get to this thread until tonite, but he asked me to post on his behalf that "LOTG unequivocally cannot see bids nor passwords" and cannot access the settings that would allow that.

I have spoken to Al before. By far my favorite person to talk to at a show. Always willing to continue to talk and very friendly. The auctions are growing in stature in the t206 area as well. Great combination all around.

[terjung]

This has all settled out how I thought it would. I'm just surprised AHs didn't stand up and challenge REAs claim, which apparently has been out there for years.
However, if AH do not have the capability to see watch lists, max bids and passwords... then what is BSTs "True Bid"?

Thanks for the question. We welcome the conversation.

Starting out as collectors ourselves, John, Andy, and I saw an industry that was, at minimum, wrought with accusations of misdeeds and fraudulent behavior. This was as troubling to us as it is to many of you. When we created BST Auctions, we wanted to present a system in which our bidders could trust, but we didn’t want them to have to take our word for it. To that end, we contracted with our vendor to have a way to communicate to our bidders that their max bids and passwords would be known to them alone. In short, we built the accountability into our software and are proud to display the True Bid™ seal that demonstrates to our bidders that we cannot see the amount of any max bids placed or any passwords.

Whether by having the True Bid™ system, a 0% seller’s fee, offering interest-free cash advances, building in and showing our decreasing buyer’s premium on the bid page, or by taking Paypal®, we try hard to operate our catalog auction in such a way as to glean the positive aspects of the hobby.

Let’s face it, we are talking about tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in bids that bidders hope are being handled with integrity. We don’t take our bidder’s trust for granted and want them to feel comfortable placing max bids knowing definitively that those bid amounts are known to them alone.

Stated another way, we didn’t want our bidders to have to hope that we couldn’t see max bids and/or passwords or to hope that the conversation came up on a message forum so that we could answer the question. We took the step to answer the question before it was asked, contracted to have the True Bid™ system, and proudly display its logo. Thanks for the question!

Brian Terjung
BST Auctions
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfolderssv/terjung1/misc/BST%20Auctions%20logo.JPG
www.BST-Auctions.com (http://www.BST-auctions.com)

[darwinbulldog]

This has all settled out how I thought it would. I'm just surprised AHs didn't stand up and challenge REAs claim, which apparently has been out there for years.
However, if AH do not have the capability to see watch lists, max bids and passwords... then what is BSTs "True Bid"?

If you read on, you'll see REA also proudly claims that no other auction houses are allowed to access or read the REA auction rules.