1887-1890 Old Judge NEW QUESTION

[Joshchisox08]

Greetings ole' chaps !!!

I've been doing quite a bit of research on this set and there are 38 players in the set of 500+ I can't seem to find any information on. Nothing on SABR nothing on Baseball Reference.

If anyone is an expert on this set or knows these guys with a different name to look him under can you please provide your expertise ?

Any help is much appreciated.

Here is a list of the following players I'm having issues finding anything on:

Bogart, Walter ----Indianapolis Hoosiers
Boyce, Abner ---Washington Senators
Davin, D.J. ---Milwukee Cream Citys
Feron, Colonel ---Washington Senators
Fischer ---Chicago Maroons
Flanigan, Thomas--- Cleveland Blues
Foster, F.W. Dotted Tie ---New York Metropolitans
Gibson, Lee ---Philadelphia Phillies
Gleason, Brother Bill ---Philadelphia Athletics
Greer, Michael ---Cleveland Blues
Hafner, William ---Kansas City Cowboys
Hapeman, A.G. ---Sacramento Atlas
Hart, William ---Cincinnati Reds
Hogan, Eddie ---Cleveland Blues
Johnson, John ---Kansas City Cowboys
Jordan, W.T. ---Minneapolis Millers
Kelly, John
Kremmeyer, Charles ---Sacramento Atlas
McCormack, John ---St. Louis Whites
McQuaid, James--- Denver Mountaineers
Nicholson, J.W. ---Chicago Maroons
Nicholl, Nick ---St. Louis Browns
O'Brien, Jack ---Brooklyn Bridgegrooms
Ripslager, Chalres Dotted Tie--- New York Metropolitans
Sanders, W.H. ---Omaha Omahogs
Shafer, Frank ---St. Paul Apostles
Smith, Nick ---St. Joseph Clay Eaters
Somers, P.T. ---St. Louis Browns
Stephens, B.F. ---Milwukee Cream Citys
Sterling, John C. ---Minneapolis Millers
Warner, E.H. ---Milwukee Cream Citys
Weber, Charles ---Sioux City Corn Huskers
Winder, William ---Columbus Senators
Whitacre, Harry ---Philadelphia Athletics

[oldjudge]

The Old Judge book has short bios on every player.

[Joshchisox08]

The Old Judge book has short bios on every player.

Is this a relatively cheap book? Similar to the T206 book or more info on the players than that?

[oldjudge]

I've seen copies sell in the $25-$50 range recently. The research you did probably cost you more than that in time expended. I'll leave it to others to comment on the book's quality.

[bn2cardz]

The book can found at a good price (compared to the info you received)

I see one on ebay at $40:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-MASSON-The-Photographic-Baseball-Cards-of-Goodwin-Company-1886-1890-/191618586860?hash=item2c9d5b98ec

The auction has a photo that shows the length of the BIOs.

I enjoy reading through the BIOs just as much as I enjoy reading through the set in general.

[shernan30]

Here is the link to a write up on Fred Mann:
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/3b8d1e5f

I'm working on a bio of Wild Bill Widner now, but its far from complete.

As far as the Goodwin OJ book, its highly recommended if you even the slightest interest in the set. Pictures of nearly every pose issued, short bios about the players, team lists, rarity lists, how they were produced, etc... The list can go on and on. My copy gets used at least once every week if not more.

Steven

[Eric72]

Hi Josh,

I have the Old Judge book, think it is outstanding, and highly recommend that you pick up a copy. The folks who put it together did an excellent job.

Best regards,

Eric

[Joshchisox08]

Thanks for the help guys and for Steve H directing me Mann's SABR article !!!

[autograf]

No better book if you are thinking about collecting Old Judge. Detail is unsurpassed.

[Baseball Rarities]

No better book if you are thinking about collecting Old Judge. Detail is unsurpassed.

+1 This book is a must for anyone who has even the slightest interest in Old Judge cards. It is extremely well done in all aspects.

[Rob D.]

You're doing quite a bit of research but weren't aware of the premier book that's been published on the set?

[Joshchisox08]

You're doing quite a bit of research but weren't aware of the premier book that's been published on the set?

Rob the research I've been doing has been strictly web based. I've been trying to do it without spending money.

I'm going to continue to "try" and do so for the remaining players I don't have anything on.

I don't have a real intention on collecting the set just gaining knowledge of it and it's players.

The only card I'm really interested in that I would probably purchase would be Dick Buckley because we share the same last name.

Other than that the other cards are too rich for my blood. King Kelly would be nice but again too expensive for me. :)

[dstudeba]

The Old Judge book is an incredible piece. I don't have any N172s but was happy to pay 3 times the amount they are selling for now when it came out.

[edhans]

The Old Judge book is an incredible piece. I don't have any N172s but was happy to pay 3 times the amount they are selling for now when it came out.

+1 I was fortunate to get mine autographed by the authors.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is the link to a write up on Fred Mann:
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/3b8d1e5f

I'm working on a bio of Wild Bill Widner now, but its far from complete.

As far as the Goodwin OJ book, its highly recommended if you even the slightest interest in the set. Pictures of nearly every pose issued, short bios about the players, team lists, rarity lists, how they were produced, etc... The list can go on and on. My copy gets used at least once every week if not more.

Steven
Here's an N173 style studio cabinet photo of Fred Mann. I knew if I waited long enough, there would be a tread I could post this on and still be on topic. The OJ book is a great resource guide. Nice list of names and I think any additional research just adds to the fun..Rob

[trdcrdkid]

Josh --

I heartily agree with those who are recommending the Old Judge book, which is indispensable. But if you're looking for more biographical info than is found there, especially for people not (yet) included in the SABR BioProject, the following three books, edited by David Nemec and written by him and other members of the SABR Nineteenth-Century Committee, are very useful:

* Major League Baseball Profiles, Volume 1: The Ballplayers Who Built the Game
* Major League Baseball Profiles, Volume 2: The Hall of Famers and Memorable Personalities Who Shaped the Game
* The Rank and File of 19th Century Major League Baseball: Biographies of 1,084 Players, Owners, Managers and Umpires

These three books include biographies of every man who played, managed, or umpired even a single game in major league baseball from 1871 through 1900. Unfortunately for your purposes, they don't include people who never played in the majors, and so they don't have many/most of the people in your original list. But they have the most complete biographical information available about many obscure major leaguers from that era, including most of the players on Old Judges.

[bcornell]

How many threads have we seen in the 14-year history of this board where people have begged for a magazine or a book or any type of reference that could help you learn about the hobby? Yet, when we finally get one, we hear "too expensive".

The OJ book costs $125. That's the price of a VG T206 HOFer today, I believe. Put another way, how much would you pay for the info in the 30-year-old Lipset encyclopedias? These are the only good books published in this hobby. C'mon.

Bill

[oaks1912]

Well put Bill...I bought the book when new at $125 and felt then and now that it was an incredible value at that level. Thousands of man hours of original research went into it....... Besides that, plagiarism (stealing information and images) isn't research !!



How many threads have we seen in the 14-year history of this board where people have begged for a magazine or a book or any type of reference that could help you learn about the hobby? Yet, when we finally get one, we hear "too expensive".

The OJ book costs $125. That's the price of a VG T206 HOFer today, I believe. Put another way, how much would you pay for the info in the 30-year-old Lipset encyclopedias? These are the only good books published in this hobby. C'mon.

Bill

[MW1]

The Old Judge book is an incredible piece.Agreed. There's some one-of-a-kind information within. Both authors did some fabulous work. I would love to see some sort of supplement or update, however, that addresses changes in known scarcities along with inclusions of all of the new finds--even if it's in paper or magazine form.

[Joshchisox08]

New question.

My research on this set has hit a weird fork in the road. I've not seen ANY consistent checklist for this set.

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewAllSet.cfm/sid/62055/1887-90-Old-Judge-(N172)?PageIndex=1

This checklist suggests that there are multiple cards for certain players that the above checklist site does NOT have.

http://www.teamsets4u.com/checklist/1800s/1887n172.html


Which if either of these are accurate? The second one also has teams that aren't listed on the first checklist. Which is the correct one ?

[shernan30]

New question.
My research on this set has hit a weird fork in the road. I've not seen ANY consistent checklist for this set.

There is a lot when it comes to a complete checklist. The Old Judge book has a pretty good list. You can also check out my website for a complete list of Columbus Solons and other players who played in Columbus. I know there is a second pose of Billy Barnie which I just learned of about a week ago not listed on my site yet. Also, with each pose there could be variations depending on what years they were issued. A complete set is easily over 3000 cards if I'm not mistaken. Some board members may be able to give you a more accurate number of total cards in the set.

Columbus Ohio Old Judge Players (http://bailencards.com/stevens-collection/old-judge/)

[Joshchisox08]

Thanks Steve !!!

Those two websites must be useless then lol. 576 was the total they said. Maybe that is without the variations.

I think I may just wind up getting the book !!!

Great website btw !!!

[shernan30]

Get the book. Sell a card or two if you have too.

Thanks for the website note.


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[oldjudge]

Not on your list, but just came across this interesting short bio of Jack Clements:

http://phillysportshistory.com/2011/07/18/the-greatest-left-handed-catcher-in-mlb-history-was-a-phillie/

[Joshchisox08]

What's the cheapest you can get an OJ for? I know that the SMR prices seem to be NO WHERE near what the market is for them.

For instance commons in "Poor"/PSA 1 condition supposedly go for $45. But the ONLY Dick Buckley I can find on eBay has been sitting there forever. It used to be about $200 now it's down to $99. I'd gladly pay $45 for it lol.

Any way OJ's ever sniff that SMR price era ?

[trdcrdkid]

What's the cheapest you can get an OJ for? I know that the SMR prices seem to be NO WHERE near what the market is for them.

For instance commons in "Poor"/PSA 1 condition supposedly go for $45. But the ONLY Dick Buckley I can find on eBay has been sitting there forever. It used to be about $200 now it's down to $99. I'd gladly pay $45 for it lol.

Any way OJ's ever sniff that SMR price era ?

It's possible to get a respectable-looking OJ for under $100 if you're patient and know what to look for. It helps if you're willing to buy raw. For $45, you might be able to get a total beater with a faded photo, but that's about it; certainly not anything with a numerical grade from PSA or SGC.

[Joshchisox08]

Thanks for the info Dave !

[scooter729]

Not on your list, but just came across this interesting short bio of Jack Clements:

http://phillysportshistory.com/2011/07/18/the-greatest-left-handed-catcher-in-mlb-history-was-a-phillie/

Thanks for the info on Jack Clements - didn't know too much on him, but can print that bio to keep with his N173...

[buymycards]

The Krause Standard Catalog has a decent checklist. Well over 2000 OJ's are listed.

Rick

[sreader3]

Purchasing Jay, Richard and Joe's beautiful OJ book does not take money away from buyer's collecting budget. The book is a collectible in its own right.

[shernan30]

Purchasing Jay, Richard and Joe's beautiful OJ book does not take money away from buyer's collecting budget. The book is a collectible in its own right.


+1


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[Eric72]

Purchasing Jay, Richard and Joe's beautiful OJ book does not take money away from buyer's collecting budget. The book is a collectible in its own right.

+1

I enjoy the book far more than any card I've ever purchased at a comparable price.