I think Big Papi is winning me over - even if I don't want him to

[clydepepper]

Never a fan of the DH, I do recognize Ortiz's value to his team even in a thoroughly lost season. Best DH ever has to be between him and Edgar.

While HOF election has thus far eluded Edger, I'm not sure Ortiz can be left out...and if he gets in, it may pave the way, not only for Edgar, but also for some of those with vague PED connections...so, I'm divided on whether or not I would want Big Papi in. Certainly, he is a HOF personality, a Red Sox HOFer and very well paid...should that be enough?


By the way, am I the only one that thinks it is a big deal that Wade Boggs's number is not retired?
.
.

[7nohitter]

Ray,

As a lifelong Sox fan I'd say Ortiz is definitely a HOF'er, hitting #500 tonight and the 3 rings...plus he continues to put up great numbers, even at 39 years old.

As for Boggs-not sure what the deal is here. It's interesting that no player has worn 21 (I believe) since Clemens left, but 26 has been given out many times. It's possible that even though Boggs did get the many batting titles while in Boston, the WS loss in '86 and the pathetic performances against Oakland in '88 and '90 really push the perception that Boggs was a selfish player...that he only cared about his .300 avg. Plus, his pathetic horse riding charade in ny doesn't help.

[Jim65]

He's a cheater, I hope he gets less than 5% in his first year and falls off the ballot.

[7nohitter]

He's a cheater, I hope he gets less than 5% in his first year and falls off the ballot.

Little bitter there, Jim?

[Jim65]

Little bitter there, Jim?

You wanna be a fan of a guy who breaks the rules, that's your right, doesn't mean I have to.

[7nohitter]

You wanna be a fan of a guy who breaks the rules, that's your right, doesn't mean I have to.

I'm also a Tom Brady fan!

[freakhappy]

He's a major league ball player putting up HOF numbers = HOFer...end of story.

I don't care if he was a punter in the NFL. If he is the best at his position, you have to look and judge him for it. It's very very difficult to do what he's done and he's still doing it at age 39. Haters can hate all they want, but if you open your eyes, he's a HOFer over and over again. And if I'm not mistaken, didn't a few HOFers come out and admit to using illegal substances in their playing days? Let's get off of our high horse and give the man credit for being a great player. Look at what Arod is doing this year. He cheated, but let's be honest, he's a HOFer over and over whether we want to admit it or not. One of the best to ever play. He'll most likely never get in...at least right away, but he's an elite ballplayer and there's no denying it.

[packs]

He is not a HOFer, he is a cheater. Always has been, always will be. Difference between him and a guy like Jason Giambi is integrity. Jason Giambi admitted what he did. Ortiz has denied, denied, denied.

No room for you in my hall.

[bnorth]

He is not a HOFer, he is a cheater. Always has been, always will be. Difference between him and a guy like Jason Giambi is integrity. Jason Giambi admitted what he did. Ortiz has denied, denied, denied.

No room for you in my hall.

A big +1 for me also. Before he went to the Red Sox and discovered steroids he could not even make the everyday lineup in Minnesota.

[ScottR81]

Guys I'm sure half of the players in every sport have cheated or have tried. whether it's steroids or putting a foreign substance on the ball or hollowing out a bat or deflating footballs....I mean they just found a Mickey Mantle bat that was corked and God knows how many hits or home runs he had with that bat, so does that make him a cheater and we should discredit all of the stats and remove him from the Hall of Fame??

I'm not for cheaters either but clearly there's hardly a way to stop everybody from ever cheating. we'll never know about the guys that never got caught..

it's all about money and entertainment.

[packs]

Yeah but in this day and age if you cheat, you have every opportunity to own up to it, and plenty of players have. But this one player, David Ortiz, chooses to lie, deny, or ignore the issue every time he's presented with it.

If you cheated, then admit you cheated. You're guilty either way.

[steve B]

A big +1 for me also. Before he went to the Red Sox and discovered steroids he could not even make the everyday lineup in Minnesota.

Have you read any of the books about him or the Sox at the time? The Twins were trying to make him into an opposite field singles hitter. Francona told him during the first spring training that he wasn't there to hit singles and to swing away.

Only two of his seasons are in the top 200 all time for ab/hr And his last season with Minnesota was a respectable 20Hr in 412 AB, so he was hitting pretty well even with them
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/at_bats_per_home_run_season.shtml

His two years in the top 200 for that stat were at ages 29 and 30. Which lines up reasonably well with the assumed "clean" players with better seasons. _ ones from the top 20 only.
Ruth 1920 8.48 ab/hr age 25 1921 9.15 age 26 1927 9.00 age 32 1928 9.93 age 33
Jim Thome 2002 9.23 age 31
Mantle 1961 9.52 age 29
Hank Greenberg 1928 9.59 age 27
Roger Maris 1961 9.67 age 26
---------------------------
Ortiz 2006 10.33 age 30 (26th) 2005 12.79 age 29 (188th)
The entire rest of the top 20 seasons is all filled by Bonds McGwire and Sosa.
Sosa was in his late 20's early 30's but McGwire was mid -late 30's and bonds late 30's. All the assumed clean players except Ruth only had one or two years in the top 20 the three ped users had 3-5 years

So not really an age/performance profile that's all that unusual

Every team has their questionable guys, many that are decried as cheaters did it before MLB had any clear policy or testing program. The allegation against Ortiz is from the survey testing in 2003 before the actual program started in 2004. And there's some questions about the accuracy of the 2003 program.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/mlbpa_statement.html

That report is apparently still sealed because of ongoing litigation, and neither MLB nor the players association were able to provide any details at the time or since.
The main points-
Positive in that report isn't necessarily positive for steroids.
Even a positive for steroids could be unintentional or even false given the lax rules at the time.

Opiates are a banned substance. And common food items can cause a positive test.
https://www.erowid.org/plants/poppy/poppy_testing.shtml

Nearly everything you can buy in GNC will probably cause a positive test as well.
And there's a load of stuff in the vitamin aisle at every Pharmacy and supermarket that could also cause a problem.

A few things I'm left with having looked up the stats.
1) What the heck was Ruth taking? Just kidding, but it just shows how far beyond everyone else he was.
2) I think I have a better appreciation for Mickey Mantle. In addition to the two top 20 ab/hr years he's also got the 24th best
3) Sosas three top 20 years were in the lower half of the top 20 and at younger ages maybe..........?


Steve B

[bnorth]

Have you read any of the books about him or the Sox at the time? The Twins were trying to make him into an opposite field singles hitter. Francona told him during the first spring training that he wasn't there to hit singles and to swing away.

Only two of his seasons are in the top 200 all time for ab/hr And his last season with Minnesota was a respectable 20Hr in 412 AB, so he was hitting pretty well even with them
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/at_bats_per_home_run_season.shtml

His two years in the top 200 for that stat were at ages 29 and 30. Which lines up reasonably well with the assumed "clean" players with better seasons. _ ones from the top 20 only.
Ruth 1920 8.48 ab/hr age 25 1921 9.15 age 26 1927 9.00 age 32 1928 9.93 age 33
Jim Thome 2002 9.23 age 31
Mantle 1961 9.52 age 29
Hank Greenberg 1928 9.59 age 27
Roger Maris 1961 9.67 age 26
---------------------------
Ortiz 2006 10.33 age 30 (26th) 2005 12.79 age 29 (188th)
The entire rest of the top 20 seasons is all filled by Bonds McGwire and Sosa.
Sosa was in his late 20's early 30's but McGwire was mid -late 30's and bonds late 30's. All the assumed clean players except Ruth only had one or two years in the top 20 the three ped users had 3-5 years

So not really an age/performance profile that's all that unusual

Every team has their questionable guys, many that are decried as cheaters did it before MLB had any clear policy or testing program. The allegation against Ortiz is from the survey testing in 2003 before the actual program started in 2004. And there's some questions about the accuracy of the 2003 program.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/mlbpa_statement.html

That report is apparently still sealed because of ongoing litigation, and neither MLB nor the players association were able to provide any details at the time or since.
The main points-
Positive in that report isn't necessarily positive for steroids.
Even a positive for steroids could be unintentional or even false given the lax rules at the time.

Opiates are a banned substance. And common food items can cause a positive test.
https://www.erowid.org/plants/poppy/poppy_testing.shtml

Nearly everything you can buy in GNC will probably cause a positive test as well.
And there's a load of stuff in the vitamin aisle at every Pharmacy and supermarket that could also cause a problem.

A few things I'm left with having looked up the stats.
1) What the heck was Ruth taking? Just kidding, but it just shows how far beyond everyone else he was.
2) I think I have a better appreciation for Mickey Mantle. In addition to the two top 20 ab/hr years he's also got the 24th best
3) Sosas three top 20 years were in the lower half of the top 20 and at younger ages maybe..........?


Steve B

No I have never read a book on baseball as I would find it boring. My opinion comes from making the 600 mile round trip to watch the Twins play several times a year while he was actually playing there. Then seeing the dramatic changes in him as soon as he arrived on a team full of PED users.

The funny part is I really don't have a problem with PED users. I believe several of the all-time greats used including Mantle and especially the 2 year wonder Roger Maris.

[packs]

Maris did not cheat. Breaking the record destroyed his life. You have to remember what it was like for him during that season and the intense hate directed at him at 26 years old. It wasn't like when McGwire broke the record and the country was cheering him on. Everyone wanted Maris to fail.

[chaddurbin]

until bonds get in, all these ped guys just take 10 steps back and form a line behind him. i'm not even against ped guys getting into the hof, but the line should start behind the best player this side of ted williams...until then i don't care about arod clemens manny and much less david ortiz.

[egri]

An observation, then my prediction;

It seems that over the past few years, we've become more accepting of PED usage. I'm not sure if that's because so many athletes have admitted to it or been caught, or if it's just the pendulum swinging away from the Mitchell Report and all of the prosecutions that followed in its wake, but it doesn't seem like a failed drug test is the scarlet letter it used to be.

I think if Ortiz has a couple more seasons like this one, it will be very tough to keep him out. On another board I saw it posted that Ortiz could conceivably end up with 560 home runs, 1,800+ RBI, and 2,500 hits. And that's before you get to his role in winning three World Series titles, reversing the 'curse' and his leadership after the Boston Marathon bombing. And fairly or not, Ortiz is more likeable than A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, so I predict he will get a boost that those three did not.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

MLB is not the "anything goes NFL" PED users will not make the Hall of Fame.

[Econteachert205]

Is cocaine a performance enhancing drug? I'd say so. So that would mean an awful lot of hofers from the 70's and 80's cheated. How about greenies and other amphetamines in the late 50's early 60's? Spitballs? Paging Gaylord perry.. Every team had a player on ped's. Every fan rooted for someone they knew was probably juiced. The sanctimonious commenting is just ridiculous. I'll let others smarter than me figure out who belongs in the hall, it's been compromised ten ways from Sunday anyway.

[freakhappy]

These types of threads are amusing...nothing against the OP because he didn't stir the pot or anything, but it's about some of the following responses. I don't like cheaters either, but it's funny how many people on here that don't realize or don't care that many HOFers already admitted that they cheated or they've been revealed otherwise.

I think if they get caught, they should pay a penalty...suspension, fine, whatever. But in reality, the numbers speak for themselves. No one is hitting the homeruns, driving in runs, stealing bases, other than the actual players. David Ortiz was struggling mightily at the beginning of this year and a lot of people wrote him off and then, boom! He found his swing and he's been on a tear ever since. Why?? Because he's a monster of a hitter and he found a way out of the dreadful slump. His numbers speak for themselves, so I'm not debating on whether he's a HOFer or not, because according to his numbers, he is. Whether he's a HOFer in anyone else's mind is irrelevant, but it does make for a good conversation.

Bottom line is if you don't think he's a HOFer because he was a cheater, then you need to list all of the "cheater's" that are already in the HOF and make sure you call them out as well...otherwise, you are a hippocrite.

[packs]

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

[bnorth]

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

I believe the people sticking up for the amphetamine users are doing it because their favorite player(s) came from that era.

Let me explain what amphetamines really do. Just remember that day you went to work super tiered and was not very productive. Now take that same day and add amphetamines and now you just had one of your most productive days ever. That is what they really do.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I agree on Perry but I looked at the list of HOFers that played from the 60's on up and I don't find a single name that I know of that was a cocaine user????

Of course that sage former second baseman Jeff Kent once said that he was pretty sure Babe Ruth used PEDs????????????????

[packs]

I'm sure a ton of guys in the 80s were using cocaine, but I'm not sure which HOFers people are talking about. Either way, cocaine is not going to give you an immortal arm or allow you to hit 500 homers when before using cocaine you were a middling average player (like David Ortiz).

Also, if you really want to say that cocaine is a PED, how do you explain the drug's drastic effect on the careers of its users? Did Darryl Strawberry have a great career because he used cocaine? How about Doc Gooden?

[clydepepper]

I agree on Perry but I looked at the list of HOFers that played from the 60's on up and I don't find a single name that I know of that was a cocaine user????

Of course that sage former second baseman Jeff Kent once said that he was pretty sure Babe Ruth used PEDs????????????????

Sure he did...Pork & Edible 'Dogs

[steve B]

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

Have you ever taken anything like Adderall?

My experience the first day on Ritalin for add was pretty crazy. I'd been drinking something like 8+ cups of coffee for a few years and was started on a tiny dose of Ritalin. Kicked in about the time I got to work, and I had my usual amount of coffee.

I apparently did about two days work before lunch when I was due for the second little bit. Not sure just how much I got done overall, but it was a LOT.
When I explained that I'd finally figured out to not have to coffee the next day, the boss said "thank god, you did a ton of work, but wouldn't shut up. And were going so fast we had a hard time understanding you. "
I also went to bed exhausted at around 8 instead of my usual midnight.

I'm pretty sure If I'd tried running I'd have been faster, and if anything would give me a remote chance of hitting an actual fastball, that would be it.

There's a reason nearly every sport makes you file for an exemption if you're diagnosed. (It also leaves the body quickly, so keeping it out of the actual competition is manageable ) And - surprise surprise, what's been a commonly diagnosed ailment in Baseball and Football and probably a lot of other sports?

Steve B

[steve B]

As another bit of info, when the whole PED thing was starting to come out I had an acquaintance who had been a competitive weight lifter and wrestler in the late 70's.

He said he had known for years that many baseball players were taking something. He also said the stuff he knew didn't actually make you stronger, what it did do was put your recovery ability sort of off the charts. So instead of having to train with lots of weight on for instance Monday and then needing to do lighter weights Tuesday and Wednesday before going back to the big weight Thursday. Steroids let the users train with lots of weight every day, and that's what built the mass and strength.

The down side was that peoples joints are only built for the slower increase in strength without the steroids. The added strength was able to cover for that for a while, but eventually the users would have breakdowns in joints and tendons etc.

That was when the light went on for me. I'd thought it was odd that so many very fit athletes were coming up with muscle and joint problems. Pulled this, torn that - at a rate I didn't recall seeing before. I'd figured the money made them more cautious about playing hurt, but he said that was how he knew lots of players were on something. He'd seen it before.

Steve B

[bnorth]

Great last 2 posts Steve. Trying to explain what steroids and amphetamines really do to people that have never done them is next to impossible. They tend to believe the total BS that the news puts out there.

The part of PED use that drives me crazy is seeing players from the 60's, 70's and early 80's that were obvious PED users blast the modern players about PED use and then lie their asses off about how they never used.

Packs, cocaine is a performance enhancer when used in moderation. The examples you posted with Gooden and Strawberry are not valid because they highly overused and just like steroids there is a point that using too much is actually going to make your performance worse.

[Econteachert205]

Keith Hernandez used cocaine and it didn't ruin his career. Some have even called for his induction. Same for Dave Parker. I'm not going to accuse specific hofers of using cocaine in the late 70s and early 80s because I don't know who specifically they are, but I think one would have to be naive to imagine they weren't using in some capacity.