Is this possible?

[PowderedH2O]

I saw this FDC signed by 15 golf champions and I took an interest in it. The price was a little high, but there were some deceased champions on it, so maybe not so horrible. Then I noticed something. The postmark is April 7, 1977. But, one of the signatures is of Vic Ghezzi who died in May of 1976. Is it common for envelopes to be signed before being postmarked? Or, is this just another forgery? PSA has given their approval (for whatever that's worth). I probably won't buy it because of the price, but is it legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLF-FDC-SIGNED-BY-15-LEGENDS-BYRON-NELSON-TREVINO-MIDDLECOFF-OTHERS-PSA-/251957522354?hash=item3aa9d6afb2

[btcarfagno]

I am far from an expert on FDC's, so take this with a grain or two of salt.

The only way I can see this as being legit is if someone had a blank envelope signed which then became an FDC. I don't think that is how FDC's work, though I could be wrong. I have always thought that FDC's were produced by the Post Office, and thus you couldn't hand them an item and ask that it be made into an FDC.

I am also not much to know golf autographs, but it doesn't seem to me that someone would fake an autograph of a rather obscure golfer who won one major.

Strange piece to be sure. I would be very wary personally.

Tom C

[autograf]

That envelope is also an envelope issued by the USPS with that 'stamp' as part of the envelope. Postal stationery is what it's called if I remember correctly, so it would have been issued only right around the actual date on the FDC......it's not like it was a blank envelope that could have contained a signature and then had a stamp affixed at a later time. I cannot possibly see how that Ghezzi autograph could be authentic with those circumstances................

[bigfanNY]

Saw this post and I agree looks strange. When I was a Boy I collected stamps and always liked FDC's had a number and yes they normally come with stamp so it dose not seem that it could possibly be authentic. BUT there are exceptions I went to a stamp show once and they issued a stamp as a commemorative and a postmaster was there to place stamp and postmark on items and it was long ago but I recall that folks could bring there own items to get a stamp. And in 1969 the MLB stamp lots of folks had various envelopes preprinted and the a postmaster would apply stamp and postmark from Cooperstown etc. so it can be done. I just asked this same question of the seller and will post his reply.
Jonathan Sterling

[Michael B]

The United States Postal Service generally does not create First Day Covers, though you can purchase some from them for specific events. Most covers are created by private companies such as Art Craft. They make the covers with cachets and as long as the stamp is placed on the envelope USPS will cancel it during the first day ceremony. As long as the stamp being issued during that event is placed on an item they will also affix the cancellation to that item. This is why you will see covers with multiple stamps and first day cancellations. You can also find sports tickets done this way. For those of you who have handled Buck "Large Ass" Herzog during his travels you will see that there is a Swiss stamp with a cancellation affixed to it. Postal authorities can affix a cancellation on many items as long as the proper first class postage is attached.

As for this item. NFW. It is very rare for postage stamps and postal stationery to be released early. It is a big deal when an envelope cancelled even one day before the issue date appears on the market.

I personally would not touch this item. The point was raised as to why would they forge the signature of an insignificant golfer. I believe that is the incorrect approach With many people creating forgeries is not a matter of making money, it is the thrill they get by fooling someone. This is what is usually ignored.

Sam, do you still collect Olympics?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Not sure what to make of it. The date is very strange and normally I would agree that it seems impossible, but in my opinion all of the signatures on the envelope are authentic. The only tougher ones on there are Middlecoff, Boros, and Ghezzi. I currently have a Ghezzi for sale and I have bought and sold vintage golf signatures for a while. I am not a "Ghezzi" expert, but it didn't raise any red flags while glancing at it. The only thing I can think is that it's a very good secretarial done by mail. This envelope was a common thru the mail signature item.

[PowderedH2O]

I still collect Olympics, but not like I once did. For years, the chase was the fun. Now, with eBay, it isn't the same. I have about 10,000 Olympics autographs, but 95% of that I obtained from 1985-1998.

[bigfanNY]

I asked question of seller and he came back with the following. Sad really, No one in this hobby likes bad news but to leave it up and say "PSA says it real" I would not buy this or anything else from this seller JMHO
Jonathan Sterling

REPLY FROM SELLER OF THE GOLF FDC WHEN NOTIFIED GOLFER DIED A YEAR BEFORE FDC WAS ISSUED.

"i have no idea. perhaps they issued some of the covers early. i know they used to do that from time to time. ALL of the signatures have been authenticated by PSA and are 100 percent authentic."

[MooseDog]

Well looks like the cover was indeed issued April 7, 1977:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1977/03/13/stamps-and-coins-a-golf-envelope-and-the-lafayette-issue/35866c0b-760f-4f1e-a263-a9976bd9ec78/

So that would make the Ghezzi signing an impossibility. It's also in a weird spot, my gut says the rest of the sigs are good, the Ghezzi forgery was added later to add some rarity? The pen looks a little different too. I dunno how crazy golf autograph collectors are and if that really adds any value.

The authenticity question should really be posed to Steve Grad at PSA.

[PowderedH2O]

Nice work. Well, I guess that answers my question. Either a fake, or it could be that someone sent the request via mail to Ghezzi in 1977 and his wife signed it. I know before the internet, I sent requests to dead athletes on occasion. But, if it is a wife signature, it matches up with a lot of the Ghezzi sigs I have seen.

As for the reason anyone would care about a one time major winner? Well, he won a major, which makes him part of a select group. I was actually looking at it to get near completion of one of my oddball collections. I am trying to complete all of the winners of the Greater Greensboro Open (now known as the Windham). He's one of the last I need. But, I'll get it much cheaper and hopefully one that was actually signed during his lifetime.

[djson1]

In my opinion, this could be quite possible. I know that Gateway would get signatures on their envelopes before they got the postmarks. They did that with a few (the one example I can think of is when they got Joe Wood to sign their Indians 1920 WS commemorative envelopes several months before he died in 1985). I also remember they did that with Ginger Rogers FDCs where she signed the envelopes before the postmarks and died in the interim.

[Michael B]

In my opinion, this could be quite possible. I know that Gateway would get signatures on their envelopes before they got the postmarks. They did that with a few (the one example I can think of is when they got Joe Wood to sign their Indians 1920 WS commemorative envelopes several months before he died in 1985). I also remember they did that with Ginger Rogers FDCs where she signed the envelopes before the postmarks and died in the interim.

Quite true. For the most part Gateway did not do first day covers. They did event covers. Quite a bit different when you have Pete Rose sign a bunch of envelopes that an employee carries to every every city the Reds were playing in in anticipation of his record breaking hit. You listen to the game, then go to the postal sort facility that is open late and get them cancelled. With the Ginger Rogers covers they had to sit on them for over six years after her death as the USPS does not put living people on stamps and they require a person to be deceased for six years to be considered for a stamp. That is to be considered, not guaranteed. The only exception has been presidents. I have heard of a person who has done that for years. He has people who he believes may make it onto a stamp sign blank envelopes. He then travels to the First Day ceremonies to get the covers signed and cancelled. Thus a dead person signed a first day cover.


With respect to no-hitters they would just need to pay someone in every city to bring a large number of blank, stamped envelopes to get cancelled. You can add the cachets after the fact.

None of these scenarios could occur with the golf item. This is a piece of postal stationery. That means the 'stamp' is printed on the postcard or envelope and there is no postage stamp that could be purchased in sheets or coils. Postal stationery is not made available before the first day of issue.

[steve B]

None of these scenarios could occur with the golf item. This is a piece of postal stationery. That means the 'stamp' is printed on the postcard or envelope and there is no postage stamp that could be purchased in sheets or coils. Postal stationery is not made available before the first day of issue.

This is correct. Occasionally, and more occasionally these days an individual post office will let a few items slip out early. But typically by only a day or two. it's doubtful the postal stationery was even printed before Ghezzi died. I've never heard of a US postal item released anywhere near 11 months early. In some cases the design hasn't even gotten final approval that early.

There are a few items from the 1800's where there was no official first day, and those can have what are called earliest known uses that can be bumped up by a new discovery. Even then the difference is usually days, maybe a month for less common items that weren't recognized as different stamps until decades after they were originally sold.

Steve B